Dud units / monsters / summons

[Sombre]

This thread was inspired by Xietor's complaints about the pale ones, dicussion about 'dud nations', discussion of the CB mod and the changes it makes and a number of other things people have said on here. I really hate the idea of dud units in a game, but in Dom3 it seems there are many. Actually I think quite a few are fixed in the CB mod, but for the moment let's see what we can agree on.

So, which units are duds? They can be summoned, recruitable, indies etc.

Couple of things other people have said on here before, just to get the ball rolling...

- EA Ulmish warriors who have two weapons but bad ambidexterity bonus leaving them wit awful attack.

- Pale One soldiers for MA Agartha have terrible attack and numerous other problems (including old age?) there's a thread about this.

- Spear armed huskarl of Helheim (I think) is never ever worth buying because his nearest equivalents are much better at very little change of cost.

And remember to say /why/ you think they're duds :]

[HoneyBadger]

I have a rather controversial one. I would say the basic Niefel soldier (the guy with the axe, not the jarl) is a dud. Yes, they're extremely tough troops, and yes, they're sacred, and yes, they can be *used*-in very large combats, and to support PD, but I wouldn't say they're very use*ful*-and they're the only Niefel troop you ever get besides the Jarl. What's the point of that? Why not more variety and interest here?

It's, after all, *Niefel*heim. I almost never use them, because they're an expensive dead-end. They have some use in the game, but not nearly as much, for me, as a Niefel Jarl. If there were other factors-like more appropriate (read: "specialized") equipment, for instance, I'd use and enjoy them a lot more.

As it is, I hardly ever use *any* Niefel troops, except for the Niefel Jarl, the Huskarl, and the javelin-thrower, and there's something wrong with that.

I'm planning on modding in a Niefel Jotun that uses a wooley rhinocerous for a mount, and another that uses a flail in combat and does area damage. A third may throw large balls of ice, and a fourth will be better armored, weild a war-hammer, and do extra fortress-damage. Ofcourse, they'll all be very, very expensive, but I don't have a problem with that-I may even try to figure out a spell that replaces a Jotun Jarl on foot with a Jotun Jarl on an ice-drake.

[Edi]

Heartily seconded on EA Ulm. There's something seriously wrong when a nation of supposedly ferocious barbarian warriors is reduced to using armies composed solely of its women to get anywhere, leaving the men home to tend the children and farms. The only exceptions to that are the iron and steel warriors, who use 2-handed weapons.

Increased attack skill and ambidexterity bonuses would take care of this.

[Sombre]

Yep, I read about that, tested it and found it to be true. There's very little point in using anything but the women.

I'm very tempted to make a CBMplus version which 'fixes' this, among other things (like bakemono size etc etc). One of the reasons I want to hear about more units people find to be useless.

[Sombre]

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

[Sombre]

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

[Sandman]

The Lord Warden.

It's not that he's especially bad, but he's capital-only and can't compete with Crones or Daughters of Avalon. He's a stealthy leader, but the Mother of Avalon has the same leadership level and decent magic to boot.

[Endoperez]

Flagellants are exceptional with Fire 9 bless. Flail has two attacks, they get +4 att -> they hit with both attacks and deal the fire damage twice.

[Sombre]

Even with fire bless I can't see them being that good to be honest - I mean if you put a heavy enough bless on any sacred it's going to be good, but then you have a whole other cost to consider. Flaggies as a base still have random afflictions, no protection etc and you are still seriously limited in how many you can recruit - that isn't so bad for elite units but flaggies are chaff and you need a lot of them just to get past the swarms of arrows and aoe spells to do damage.

I could be wrong about them though. I'm not an experienced marignon player. I do know I made upgraded flaggies with no random afflictions which were freespawned for a mod nation of mine (Ulm Reborn) and even with F9 bless they weren't winning the game for me,.. I had a LOT of them too, far more than I'd be able to get recruiting them with the holy cap.

[Managarm]

I've been playing Marignon for a while and I found Flaggies with a F9 Bless very good despite their afflictions. Maybe they aren't top notch, but they can be recruited anywhere. With proper Dominion you can recruit enough of them to cover front lines, acting both as arrow catchers and breaking the enemy lines if they get close enough to enter in melee.

Now I'm playing with C'Tis and I think that Militias are rather weak. OK, they're dirty cheap at 7 gold and 2 resources, but taking into account that Light Infantries get a shield and a javelin for 3 extra gold and resources...

[Jazzepi]

Shouldn't you be hiding the Flaggies behind a small screen of some high armor troops and have them flank from the top and the bottom? That seems like a pretty good use of them to me.

Jazzepi

[vfb]

Sandman said:
The Lord Warden.

It's not that he's especially bad, but he's capital-only and can't compete with Crones or Daughters of Avalon. He's a stealthy leader, but the Mother of Avalon has the same leadership level and decent magic to boot.



I don't think a Lord Warden is a terrible choice for a prophet. It kind of fits in with the whole subversion theme for Man too (bards & stealthy priests). So just build one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Managarm]

Jazzepi,

Yes, your army setup is optimal if heavy enemy fire is expected: let the shielded infantry deal with arrows harmlessly whilst the blessed Cavalry and Flaggies wreak havoc on their ranks.

In fact my army setup is more focused on screening the real infantry (say Man At Arms) from enemy's cavalry lances, and also to save some space in both flanks for Crossbowmen and Knights Of The Chalice deployment.

[Sandman]

vfb said:

I don't think a Lord Warden is a terrible choice for a prophet. It kind of fits in with the whole subversion theme for Man too (bards & stealthy priests). So just build one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.



All that armour will give him nasty spell fatigue, until you can forge something lighter. But I suppose one is OK.

The key to using flagellants is the astral-9 bless. Twist fate effectively doubles the number of hits they can take from one to two. This gives them longer to use their offensive punch, which is decent even without a fire bless.

[Dedas]

Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.

[Meglobob]

Dedas said:
Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.



I usually find you can never have too much magic resistance. Especially in the end game, when a mind boggling amount of magic is flying around.

[Sombre]

I don't see that astral 9 is worth it. I mean their offensive power isn't really that good, not worth a level 9 bless to protect anyway. Remember that a good number of them are crippled and have messed up strength etc.

[Dedas]

To me fire and maybe air (for airshield) seems to be the obvious choices for blesses. But maybe death can do some good too as they probably are many and have a lot of attacks that will hit (flails) very often. Afflictions can cripple even the best units, and the best thing is that their owner still has to pay their upkeep. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Here's another one, the EA Atlantis Basalt Guard. Powerful unit, but because it doesn't wear a helmet, it can't get the full use of an earth-bless, it's got ridiculous resource-cost, it's capital only, and doesn't even get a patrol-bonus, despite-in the description-being the "ultimate guards".

Again, like the Niefel footsoldier, neat unit in theory, in practice-not much worth using at all.

[Sandman]

Sombre said:
I don't see that astral 9 is worth it. I mean their offensive power isn't really that good, not worth a level 9 bless to protect anyway. Remember that a good number of them are crippled and have messed up strength etc.



Astral-9 is really cheap though.

[Dedas]

Yes, cheap as in you are stuck with an immobile rock or statue. Everything has its price.

[Edi]

HoneyBadger, I'd rather give the Basalt Guards a castle defense bonus instead of patrol bonus.

[quantum_mechani]

I agree with most of the things mentioned here, with three exceptions:

1. Flagellants, they are not the best sacreds out there, but for 10 gold, non-capital only, and two attacks, they really can be worthwhile. Admittedly the crossbows kind of overshadow them, but they overshadow almost any human troop.

2. Basalt Guards. They certainly pale to many other sacreds, and are not generally something to build a strategy around, but they are quite viable as a resource sink. There comes a point very quickly where you can't afford to use other troops to use up all your resources, and slowly building an elite corps of these is fairly cheap and useful to have given the vulnerability of all your other troops to arrows if you venture on land.

2. EA Ulm two weapon warriors. It's true, for the most part they suck compared to the women, but compared to human troops on average they are actually fine, if somewhat niche. I suppose a little extra attack skill wouldn't hurt, but with the CB nerf to the women warriors I can see using them in cases where you have low defense and high armor foes.

Now, as far as adding to the dud options list, that seems a rather ambitious task given that I would estimate at least 75% of pretenders/spells/units/etc. apply.

[Meglobob]

Dedas said:
Yes, cheap as in you are stuck with an immobile rock or statue. Everything has its price.



Look at it as a teleport anywhere master enslaver, until then it can mind hunt, cast globals, dispel globals, make astral magic items and if you add 2 earth, summon golems. To just name a few of its more obvious uses...

[Jazzepi]

Has anyone actually found a good use for patrol bonuses? It seems like castle defense/seige is far more useful.

Or pillaging bonuses, for that matter. I actually think it would be interesting if pillaging was a switch you could flip on and off. I don't see why an army can't pillage as it moves through a province. It could be more effective the longer you stay in one place, but I think it would be more realistic to have a huge army rampaging through the opponent's land pillaging as it goes.

Jazzepi

[HoneyBadger]

I'm at work now, so I can't check, but I believe Basalt Guards already *do* get a castle-defense bonus, Edi.

If I were redoing EA Ulm, I'd add a few male units that started out with melee armor-piercing weapons like Piercers, swords and axes of sharpness, etc. Maybe even have some male units like those sons of the smiths, in EA, with black steel armor, just to make the point that the nation is still a little bit wary of women on the battlefield, and men are still in charge of the business of war.

[Edi]

I checked the game, the Living Pillars do indeed have a castle defense bonus of 2.

Quantum, the most obvious solution to the EA Ulm units would be to either add 2 points of attack on the warriors or 1 point attack and 1 point more ambidexterity. Both options would result in a similar amount of improvement, with slightly different emphasis and the +1/+1 att/adex is probably slightly better than +2 att.

From the EA Ulm analysis thread:


Edi said:
The thing about the Ulmish warriors is that they have an attack of 10 for warrior and axe warrior and 11 for forest and mountain warrior. Axe and forest warriors have 2 axes and a throwing axe while warriors and mountain warriors have axe and broad sword.

Penalties, 2 axes:
-1 attack on axe, axe+axe = ambidex penalty of 2, making for a total penalty of 3. Subtract ambidex rating of 1 and final penalty is 2, for 2 attacks at 8. This means that the second attack can be treated as if it were attack 10 against the target's normal defense.

Penalties axe + broadsword
lengths 1+2=3, axe -1 and broadsword 0 and ambidex reduces penalty by 1, Final result is attack ratings axe 7, broadsword 8 for a unit with base attack 10. Meaning attack 7 + attack 10 against normal defense of target. Not exactly something that fills you with confidence.

Then take a look at Steel Maiden: Attack 12, 2x shortsword and ambidex 1. Length 1+1=2, reduced to 1 by ambidex, gives you two attacks at base 11. The steel maiden is more heavily armored than the basic warrior and has only 2 points less body prot than the forest and mountain warriors, much better attack and defense, has a strat move of 2 plus stealth, whereas neither forest nor mountain warrior is stealthy and both have strat move of 1.

Shield maidens swap one short sword for a shield, giving them one attack at 12 and a def of 15, 11 without shield. Shield maidens, steel maidens and warrior maidens (the armored archer) all cost 13 resources to the warrior/axe warrior's 10 or forest/mountain warrior's 16.


When you plug the new numbers in, it's either attack 2 points raw addition to the final numbers or 1 point less penalty plus 1 point raw addition, meaning that the sword/axe combo warriors benefit slightly more from the combination than the double axe wielders, but overall the numbers stay the same.

The +1/+1 boost would make the EA Ulm warriors a real contender without needing to nerf the maidens, because the twin weapon warriors are all really subpar, with a vengeance. You would still need to make choices in the survivability department due to the defense differences, but now there really is a viable choice between using the women and using the actual warriors. It should not unbalance the game either, because right now the imbalance is in the ridiculously low end attributes of the warriors.

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks for checking, Edi. One solution (along with helmets) to Living Pillars is to raise their castle defense bonus. If you want a random That would really help a lot to making them a really decent unit, and worth the price. It would also make their PD more interactive-which isn't a bad thing.

[Dedas]

Meglobob said:

Dedas said:
Yes, cheap as in you are stuck with an immobile rock or statue. Everything has its price.



Look at it as a teleport anywhere master enslaver, until then it can mind hunt, cast globals, dispel globals, make astral magic items and if you add 2 earth, summon golems. To just name a few of its more obvious uses...



Yes you're right. I just meant that it is nice to have a mobile pretender in the beginning to help with expanding and site searching.

[bananafish]

even if you don't have 'bless 9' attributes- even moderate blessing makes them decent expendible units. low maintenance and can be recruited in any of your castles w/ temples.

if u happen to have 'gift of health' helps w/ your old age mages dying off too... i usually have them run behind the cavalry.

[Gandalf Parker]

Jazzepi said:
Has anyone actually found a good use for patrol bonuses? It seems like castle defense/seige is far more useful.
Jazzepi



Again that depends tons on the game type. In a quick little MP game then definetly Id rather have defense/seige. In a large map game Id rather have patrol bonus. Particularly if its capital only.

[Sombre]

QM: I don't think it's true that 75% of the stuff in the game is 'dud'. Maybe not for preferred use in highly competative MP, but most things still have their uses or are merely below average. What I'm looking for is units which flat out bite and punish you for using them,.. and make them a bit more usable.

It seems people find the flagellents to be ok, so if I were to change them all I would do is remove the random affliction.

I use the CB mod and I think a lot has been done there to increase variety (some disagree). But there are still dud units which could be made less so. Not looking to even everything out, but if a unit is a dud it might as well not even be in the game and that's no good for anyone.

[HoneyBadger]

I agree-most units have *some* use. My deciding factor is usually whether or not the unit is interesting enough that the time I need to find a use for it is worth the trouble of doing so. So a really interesting unit might be worth more time than one that's dull, if both are stats-equal.

[PvK]

HoneyBadger said:
I have a rather controversial one. I would say the basic Niefel soldier (the guy with the axe, not the jarl) is a dud. Yes, they're extremely tough troops, and yes, they're sacred, and yes, they can be *used*-in very large combats, and to support PD, but I wouldn't say they're very use*ful*-and they're the only Niefel troop you ever get besides the Jarl. What's the point of that? Why not more variety and interest here?...



Try seeing what happens when a bunch of Vans (blessed if you like) fight a wall of Niefel giant soldiers. Unless the Vans have cold protection somehow, after a couple of turns, the Vans will be frozen into unconsciousness, and then chopped into chum. So will just about anything else that isn't cold-immune.

[MaxWilson]

Sombre said:
- Spear armed huskarl of Helheim (I think) is never ever worth buying because his nearest equivalents are much better at very little change of cost.




I said this, but I've since retracted the comment since it turns out I was misremembering his stats.

-Max

[Sombre]

Ah. I didn't check that one myself, you just made a good argument. I personally think spear and pike armed units tend to be rather unpowered since having high weapon length for repel isn't actually very useful.

[MaxWilson]

Edi said:

Edi said:
<snip>
Penalties, 2 axes:
-1 attack on axe, axe+axe = ambidex penalty of 2, making for a total penalty of 3. Subtract ambidex rating of 1 and final penalty is 2, for 2 attacks at 8. This means that the second attack can be treated as if it were attack 10 against the target's normal defense.

Penalties axe + broadsword
lengths 1+2=3, axe -1 and broadsword 0 and ambidex reduces penalty by 1, Final result is attack ratings axe 7, broadsword 8 for a unit with base attack 10. Meaning attack 7 + attack 10 against normal defense of target. Not exactly something that fills you with confidence.
<snip>



When you plug the new numbers in, it's either attack 2 points raw addition to the final numbers or 1 point less penalty plus 1 point raw addition, meaning that the sword/axe combo warriors benefit slightly more from the combination than the double axe wielders, but overall the numbers stay the same.




Sorry, I'm not following. Whether it's a raw 2 points or a raw 1 point plus 1 point of ambi, both double axe and combo warriors have at least a -2 penalty from weapon length. Raising ambidexterity to 2 should have exactly the same effect as another point of basic attack. The double-axe and combo guys would wind up at 10/12 and 9/12, respectively, which is just a flat +2 improvement to both of them.

Am I missing something?

-Max

[Edi]

Yes. You're confusing weapon inherent penalties with ambidexterity penalties.

Ambidex bonus affects penalty due to weapon length, meaning adex 2 would negate the weapon length penalty for axes (length 1), so the double axe warrior would have only -1 penalty to attack courtesy of the inherent penalty of the axe. If they used double maces, there would be no penalty at all. The sword/axe warrior would have a length penalty of 3-2=1 and would get another 1 poinyt penalty for the axe, so his attack with axe would be at -2 to basic attack and the word attack with -1 to basic attack (with the second attack being effectively 2 points higher due to the def penalty for the first one).

Increasing ambidex bonus is more effective if the weapons being used are long and if there are no inherent attack penalties for the weapon. I'd actually prefer a +2/+1 att/adex bonus, that would have an impact that still would not be too overpowering.

[MaxWilson]

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the sword/axe guys had some kind of preference for 1 raw + 1 ambi instead of 2 raw, which I couldn't figure out because they yield exactly the same numbers. (It's a flat +2 bonus relative to the existing Ulmish warriors.) Since I agree with all the numbers in your post, you must not have been saying that.

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword)
Att 11, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 8/9 (effectively 8/11).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +2 bonus)
Att 13, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +1, +1 ambi)
Att 12, Ambi 2. Length penalty = 1, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

I think we agree on this--extra ambi is the same as attack bonus unless your weapons are so short that your length penalty is already zero, which for Ulm it's not. Yes?

-Max

[Edi]

Hrmm, it could be. I need to check up on the ambidexterity mechanics when I get back home, but it certainly looks that way. My mistake.

I think the +1/+1 is a more elegant solution since it does not result in visible attack values that look overinflated compared to other base units in the game. I suppose it's a matter of preference. In any case, the Ulmish units should NOT get more than +1 to ambidexterity (for a total adex of 2) or it will piss on all sort of other thematics (such as assassins having good ambidexterity etc).

[Juzza]

Sombre said:
Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?



First of all there are a lot of different strategic ways to use Flaigrents mostly their moral for me, they have two attacks with one weapon, that means no ambidextrous penalty which means their getting 2 attacks at 9, or whatever it is for 10 gold, and if their blessed with fire, say 9, thats like an attack of 13 with fire, each two attacks takes 4 off a creatures defence and if you have but 3 of them blessed up to something with even 20 defence they will take it down within one round.

Second Shields don't only effect missle fire, if an attack beats defence but not the shield parry you add the shield protection to the creatures normal protection, shields are far from useless.



Dedas said:
Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.



Any scared unit? all the Marignon summonable angelic units are sacred not to mention the knights of the chalice for the MA, if you don't bless them your missing out on a huge part of Marignon.



HoneyBadger said:
Here's another one, the EA Atlantis Basalt Guard. Powerful unit, but because it doesn't wear a helmet, it can't get the full use of an earth-bless, it's got ridiculous resource-cost, it's capital only, and doesn't even get a patrol-bonus, despite-in the description-being the "ultimate guards".

Again, like the Niefel footsoldier, neat unit in theory, in practice-not much worth using at all.



Their desined for clogging castle gates, with even a little bit fire bless and earth to reduce fatigue, two attacks with high attack, almost impossible to take down underwater with no missile fire.

I also have to dissagree with the Niefel footsoldier, theres alot of strategic ways to use this unit using things such as a 4N bless will make them next to impossible to take down with all that heath, with regeneration their chance of getting alifictions is next to nothing because of all their health.


Jazzepi said:
Has anyone actually found a good use for patrol bonuses? It seems like castle defense/seige is far more useful.

Or pillaging bonuses, for that matter. I actually think it would be interesting if pillaging was a switch you could flip on and off. I don't see why an army can't pillage as it moves through a province. It could be more effective the longer you stay in one place, but I think it would be more realistic to have a huge army rampaging through the opponent's land pillaging as it goes.

Jazzepi



Simple, for patrolling, if you've got a commander with say 20 patrol bonus you can have say 5-8 of them patrolling in a province where your constantly blood hunting, your still getting money from the province, not using an army to patrol the province so thats another army to fight rather than sitting in the middle of your nation patrolling and if you have a decent grow this will hardly even effect the population of the province.

[Sombre]

I'd give 'em +1+1 att/ambi for a total of 12 attack, 2 ambi, or possibly just +1 ambi since in CBM the women have been nerfed a bit (or so I hear).

Actually this is my current thinking for a balance addition to CBM:

Att 2 on blowpipe.

Bakemono to size 1.
Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.
Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.
Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.
Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.
Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.
Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.
EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.
EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.
LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.

Obviously I want this list to be longer. Any more units you'd never use?

[Sombre]

Juzza said:
First of all there are a lot of different strategic ways to use Flaigrents mostly their moral for me, they have two attacks with one weapon, that means no ambidextrous penalty which means their getting 2 attacks at 9, or whatever it is for 10 gold, and if their blessed with fire, say 9, thats like an attack of 13 with fire, each two attacks takes 4 off a creatures defence and if you have but 3 of them blessed up to something with even 20 defence they will take it down within one round.




You're ignoring the fact that they're all crippled and diseased - half of them aren't going to do any good at all without a serious bless and a serious bless could make any unit good. I do take the point about two attacks, but I still think they're not worth it unless they have afflictions removed.



Second Shields don't only effect missle fire, if an attack beats defence but not the shield parry you add the shield protection to the creatures normal protection, shields are far from useless.




I'm not saying shields are useless, just that they're less useful for aquatic chappies. My main gripe with the amber clan guys is that they get 1 more protection on body, head and shield for 14 resources, which makes their Rcost almost double that of the standard oceanian soldier (34 compared to 20). They are better in stats, but that's what your extra gold is paying for - the amber armour is a resource hogging ripoff.




Any scared unit? all the Marignon summonable angelic units are sacred not to mention the knights of the chalice for the MA, if you don't bless them your missing out on a huge part of Marignon.




He's not saying don't bless them, he just doesn't think the MR boost is worth it for marignon.



Does anyone make use of pillaging bonus? It seems rare, slight and pretty useless.

[Edi]

Only units that I remember having pillage bonus are the barbarians, barbarian chief and barbarian lord. Might have been one or two other units, but there are very few units that have it.

[Juzza]

I never use pillaging on computer players, only ever vs human opponents, with large sneaking armies, you appear in provinces next to their capital or major cities with somthing like a harvester of sorrows and a huge army and decimate their populations, then they can't move armies though there easierly, rec is reduced and income from the province is gone, and you make enough money from the pillaging to replace the army you just sent deep into enemy territory from whiping out 20000 people.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
QM: I don't think it's true that 75% of the stuff in the game is 'dud'. Maybe not for preferred use in highly competative MP, but most things still have their uses or are merely below average. What I'm looking for is units which flat out bite and punish you for using them,.. and make them a bit more usable.


It's amounts to the same thing, just a matter of degree of disadvantage. If something is only a little worse than your other options (but very similar in function) it might as well be a lot worse.

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.

[HoneyBadger]

Again, it's completely besides the point that they're a powerful unit, as I said. The point is that they're a dud, a dead end. They're fine for a few things, but they're expensive, limited, and pretty much the only game in town. Why waste money on them? If you've got a good bless, recruit Jarls.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Att 2 on blowpipe.



Already done in CB.


Bakemono to size 1.



I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.


Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.



Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.


Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.



I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.


Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.



I suppose, not harming anything though.


Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.



IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.


Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.



I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.


Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.



For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.


EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.



An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.


EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.



The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.


LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.



Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

[Sombre]

quantum_mechani said:
It's amounts to the same thing, just a matter of degree of disadvantage. If something is only a little worse than your other options (but very similar in function) it might as well be a lot worse.

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.



Well if it's just about degrees of disadvantage, you might say that you should never use anything that isn't the hands down best unit or nation in the game. But people want to, both for variety and because the use of different units and nations changes depending on the situation you're in. I mean there are times when unit A, though generally worse than unit B, will be a better choice. What I want to 'fix' is unit C, which has a clear purpose (it's got AP weapons, good mapmove, fire resistance or some other ability which fits into rock paper scissors balance) but still sucks. While I'm at it I figure unit D, which is just a worse version of another unit, could do with either being given a new ability or at least made to be roughly average so it doesn't punish the AI which seems to build at random, or the player who wants to use it for flavour's sake.

The stuff you mention there is 'fixed' in the CB mod is it not? I personally think that if a unit is just bad, severely underpowered, it should be improved. Useless units add nothing to the game and are fairly easy to turn into units which provide more variety (gameplay, flavour, graphics) with a little stat tweak.

[Sombre]

Already done in CB.



Not in v1.00 it isn't. There's a mistake in the code - the weapon is typed in as #prec 2 when it needs to be #att 2. Since I'm proposing a mod on top of the CBM mod, I thought I'd fix that little typo.



I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.



I'll check, but I think they'll look fine. They're the same size as the vaetti after all (graphically). Maybe even the same as a hoburg.


Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.



Might have to make them slightly more expensive, but it just seems daft that the can't fight worth a damn currently.


I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.



End result is the same, so I don't mind.


I suppose, not harming anything though.



Just a tidying thing. They have zero need of the scout.


IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.



I completely agree, but not for the initiate level units. Their description suggests they are young(ish). The nation as a whole would still have oldage problems and I'd only make it so the initiates at least didn't /start/ old. 2-3 years down the line, who knows?


I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.




I agree, but in the meantime I think waterstrike could be lower. As someone on the forums said, water mages should be useful underwater out of the box. I suppose I could come up with a couple more attack spells underwater which are weaker and at lower levels. I still think water strike is high up considering how specialised and relatively underwhelming it is.



For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.




Makes sense from balance, theme and fun perspective to me.


An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.



Depends on the cost of the slave troll. If the shambler thrall is currently a bad choice it could be given a boost or made a bit more unique, too.


The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.



Well there's always magic or some elemental resistance. That would play on the fact that they have armour crafted by specialised mages from traditionally magical matter.



Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).



Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

I do think we agree on most areas, and I don't see any reason why the balance of SP and MP need conflict. This thread has actually turned out a lot better than I expected as far as bringing up useful balance discussions. CB is built on input, there hasn't been a lot of it for Dom3 yet, but that's largely because people have still been exploring the base game.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:


Well if it's just about degrees of disadvantage, you might say that you should never use anything that isn't the hands down best unit or nation in the game. But people want to, both for variety and because the use of different units and nations changes depending on the situation you're in. I mean there are times when unit A, though generally worse than unit B, will be a better choice. What I want to 'fix' is unit C, which has a clear purpose (it's got AP weapons, good mapmove, fire resistance or some other ability which fits into rock paper scissors balance) but still sucks. While I'm at it I figure unit D, which is just a worse version of another unit, could do with either being given a new ability or at least made to be roughly average so it doesn't punish the AI which seems to build at random, or the player who wants to use it for flavour's sake.


That is pretty much the philosophy of CB. The problem is the rather extreme numbers of type Ds, especially among recruitable troops. It can be extremely difficult to find thematic, balanced, and different solutions for the legions of them.

[Sombre]

Cool. If CB is still a work in progress then I'm happy to stick with that and work on CBM versions of mod nations.

I just noticed I managed to seriously mess up the quoting up there. I'll fix that.

By the way I tested the little Bakemono at size 1 and they look just as good in battle if not better. I really think they should be size 1.

[Juzza]

HoneyBadger said:
Again, it's completely besides the point that they're a powerful unit, as I said. The point is that they're a dud, a dead end. They're fine for a few things, but they're expensive, limited, and pretty much the only game in town. Why waste money on them? If you've got a good bless, recruit Jarls.



I totaly disagree these troops are exteremly useful for what their worth, when I play Nefilhiem I usaly rely on the nefil soldiers and unfronzen to do all my battles, they are however only desined to fight in cold provinces, they gain +1 to attack, Defence Strength and + even more protection for every cold in value in the province and their with that much cold in a province it makes your enermies encoumbered terribly, +3 for an average human, and then you add their chill to the equation and they are so fatigued that they practicaly lay down and die to a few nefil soldiers, and of core you only need a few of them maybe, five in a large army of other giants and they make a huge impact and if your still not convinced by that, actauly try a few stragies yourself and tell me how they keep to fail your expectations.

[Dedas]

I completely agree with Juzza.

Also I never use the low attack ambidex axemen by themselves as some people seems to, because if you do they won't hit a thing. Instead I let the enemy fight themselves tired first with a small group of shield maidens whom are excellent at this. These troops will hardly kill anything armored with their low strength and their short sword, but they got excellent defense and wield a shield. After a some rounds I throw in the axes, and as the shield maidens now built up some fatigue on the enemy (10 = -1 to defense) my axemen will have a field day. As a bonus the shield maidens will rarely get hit by the throwing axes.
This tactic works quite well against high protection, high defense troops such as knights of this early age.

[PvK]

Er. I'm just gonna say it. I see an awful lot of people saying an awful lot of units are useless or pointless or hopeless or should be removed, and frankly, these comments are mostly showing that the posters just haven't thought of what these units are good for.

Remove the scout from Marignon because they have a (cough, much more expensive, and far less diplomatic) spy? No!

Pale Ones useless and horrible because they have one eye and therefore base attack skill of 8? Uh, fine, meanwhile they let you cheaply conquer the oceans and multiply your income, etc.

Flagellants useless? Remember that discussion about how ME Ulm is horrid because they have Morale 10... No, think again.

Ahem.

[Sombre]

I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

[Methel]

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.



They're flaggelants, they hurt themselves for religious purification/proof of faith/penance/whatever. Seems logic that a good bit of them cant fight as well as unhurt soldiers.

[Sombre]

I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

[vfb]

Sombre said:
I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.



They got infected and were forced to amputate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif.

[Gandalf Parker]

Some people will only be happy with a strategy game that involves perfectly matched pieces that are a different color. Like playing Chess. Nothing wrong with such games. They are the true test of strategy-vs-strategy. They also tend to want chess-board maps with nothing random which might cause a game to be won by luck. This is an extreme group and can be supported by maps and mods. (hmmm mods that create a dozen duplicates of Ulm so the Ulmers can play against other Ulmers. One mod for each nation...)

Of course there is also the other extreme. Those who prefer random and chaos. The game is to best handle the things thrown at you. Also supportable by maps and mods (one day I will update Leif's Dom2 mod that changes one randomly chosen stat on every unit in the game so that you have to rethink your strategy each time you play with it. And recreate my chaotic randomized maps). Yes Im in the chaotic group.

OF course, MOST players are someplace in between and seem to be having a great time with the game. I will continue to suggest chaos and random in the beta-test group. And we have our representatives in this thread who will continue to post there in the name of balance and equalizing.
And the poor devs will continue to watch us go back and forth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Gandalf Parker

[Sombre]

What's chaotic about units so bad they'll always punish you for using them?

I'm not into uber-balance. I don't even play MP. I like variety and if certain units are just bad that cuts down the variety, even in SP. It also weakens the AI, since it can't tell a good buy from a bad one.

[Dedas]

That is a very good post, Gandalf. I'm entirely with you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jazzepi]

Even some people who play chess think every side having the same exact start is dull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960

Jazzepi

[quantum_mechani]

Gandalf Parker said:
Some people will only be happy with a strategy game that involves perfectly matched pieces that are a different color. Like playing Chess. Nothing wrong with such games. They are the true test of strategy-vs-strategy. They also tend to want chess-board maps with nothing random which might cause a game to be won by luck. This is an extreme group and can be supported by maps and mods. (hmmm mods that create a dozen duplicates of Ulm so the Ulmers can play against other Ulmers. One mod for each nation...)

Of course there is also the other extreme. Those who prefer random and chaos. The game is to best handle the things thrown at you. Also supportable by maps and mods (one day I will update Leif's Dom2 mod that changes one randomly chosen stat on every unit in the game so that you have to rethink your strategy each time you play with it. And recreate my chaotic randomized maps). Yes Im in the chaotic group.

OF course, MOST players are someplace in between and seem to be having a great time with the game. I will continue to suggest chaos and random in the beta-test group. And we have our representatives in this thread who will continue to post there in the name of balance and equalizing.
And the poor devs will continue to watch us go back and forth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I think that's a pretty false dichotomy. As Sombre points out, the goal of balancing (at least as far as I'm concerned) is more variety, thus in a sense more chaos. As far as the random element, personally I can't stand chess very because of the lack of any randomness. I'm the last one that will complain about too much randomness in a game, as long as your actions still have some impact, it's all in good fun.

What I'm getting at here is there two kind of balance, what's out of your hands and what is under your control. I don't mind things being 'unbalanced' by being screwed by a random event early or playing on a crazy map, what I can't bring myself to do is to buy obviously inferior troops. In a way, balancing is bridging the gap between the hardcore players and those that players that are just along for the ride. It helps the players that want to try all the options not be so disadvantaged, and opens up all kinds of new strategies for hardcore players to work with.

[Gandalf Parker]

Most of the obviously inferior troops that get fixed by peoples mods are units that I enjoy playing with quite abit. Some are very RPG and having them non-inferior would be non-thematic. They are meant to be crappy swarmers. I also dont tend to play with a spreadhseet in my head comparing single points of hp or armor or defense with the unit next to it. To me, knowing exactly which unit is the best choice making the others "duds" is akin to a cheat sheet.

If you want to twiddle-diddle every point of every unit then feel free to (There is a mod for that?). But it seems to me as if it would be a never-ending project which is like a pendulum swinging back and forth until it finally ends up coming to a complete stop in the middle. Chess pieces.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, if you are arguing some units should not be worth buying for thematic reasons, there's not much I can say to that. Because I can't think of any units that would fall into that category, militia are supposed to suck but they can also be thematically made much cheaper than other troops, light cavalry may suck but thematically/historically they have their uses even if it's hard to model in dominions.

In any case, I hardly meticulously compare every units stats while playing a game, it's 90% just a sort of intuition based on past games. The only place that really comes into play at all is when I have a number of very similar national troops, and really the only difference at all is one or two points of defense.

And you can balance dominions for the next century but I doubt you will come up with anything resembling chess by tweaking units stats. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ironhawk]

Your use of the Chess metaphor is totally misled.

Balancing is used to provide a cost-effective use for every unit, not make every unit the same. This does not mean that every unit has the same value compared to each other or that all units will have common (rather than niche) roles.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im well aware of its pros and cons. Ive been admining online multiplayer games for decades and have continually fought the battles of balance by additon vs balance by subtraction and other admin headaches. But balancing CAN be carried to an extreme (therefore nearing chess). I only jump in if there is the appearance of "our way is the way" or use of opinions as facts such as "duds" without defining the game style that makes them duds.

If you are talking about balancing the units for MP play (not just blitz small map mp play) and it doesnt detract from the other aspects of the game, then Im all for it. I will concede that you guys are the best to debate it.

[PvK]

Sombre, I could spend all day debunking the avalanche of ill-considered exaggerated opinions in these threads about various units and nations being "duds", but I'd rather not waste that much of my time, particularly when people (I don't mean you specifically) don't even get what's spelled out. My tone may have distracted you from what I was saying, but I did include reasons you seem to have either missed or didn't appreciate about how Flagellants (even cripples), Marignon Scouts, and Pale Ones all have very good uses and reasons for being the way they are (except Pale Ones being misplaced in militia, which I agreed with at least once in its own thread).

PvK


Sombre said:
I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

[SelfishGene]

There's that blitz map thing again!

If playing with the maps that the game comes with is to be catagorized in some kind of arbitrary (and slightly demeaning) manner i have to wonder who is playing the game that they want to play, and who is playing the game that everyone else is playing.

I really don't have a problem with you Gandalf, or your giant bizarro world maps. But please don't project these preferences unto the entire community as if they were anything more than an individual choice reflecting a very small part of the community.

[Foodstamp]

The Siren is a dud unit because the land form has little specks of black near the edges of the unit graphic. This needs to be addressed and fixed asap!

[Dedas]

I think Foodstamp summarizes my feelings for this "discussion" quite well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So please, everyone - just chill. If anyone wants more game balance you are free to mod the game as you wish and you know it.

[Gandalf Parker]

SelfishGene said:
There's that blitz map thing again!

If playing with the maps that the game comes with is to be catagorized in some kind of arbitrary (and slightly demeaning) manner i have to wonder who is playing the game that they want to play, and who is playing the game that everyone else is playing.

I really don't have a problem with you Gandalf, or your giant bizarro world maps. But please don't project these preferences unto the entire community as if they were anything more than an individual choice reflecting a very small part of the community.



Oh I know that Im one extreme. But by blitz map Im talking about games with something like 10 provinces per player and 3-5 people in the game. Obviously thats meant to be a fast game and highly effects everything from what does or doesnt work as strategy, to what does or doesnt make efficent use of gold/resources in buying units, etc etc. If thats what people mostly play then they should mention that when they talking "balance". In a game where the range of map size is 100-1500 then I dont think 100 needs to define the game. (of course neither should 1500)

[Teraswaerto]

I think you should look at how many provinces Orania or Glory of the Gods (multiplayer) has and use that as maximum baseline. 1500 is not something that is used at all as far as I know. Faerun large has 424 and it is really huge for multiplayer, and even there Helheim is killer and Marverni get's killed.

[Gandalf Parker]

424 divided by 21 players is 20 provinces. The game has 3 ratings of small, medium, and large. It rates that as a "large" map. Not "really huge" for multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Usually 1000 is the game where exploration and finding a path to another nation makes it a different style game. It still amounts to about 10 provinces to the next nation but its 10 in a straight line.

[quantum_mechani]

Dedas said:
So please, everyone - just chill. If anyone wants more game balance you are free to mod the game as you wish and you know it.

That is certainly true... what I had an objection to was just the implication that A. randomness and balance where somehow opposed to each other and B. that trying to even the cost vs usefulness of options can be compared with making it 'chesslike'.

That scale somehow magically balances also seems a bit of a fallacy. 250 infantry beat 100 light cavalry just the same as 25 infantry beat 10 light cavalry. The only major impact of really large maps balance wise is that eventually your options plateau as you run out of research to do. This situation makes balance even more necessary as you have one fewer way to 'niche' options.

What I really have hard time understanding is the outlook that balance somehow restricts options. If someone does not particularly care if one option is much weaker or stronger than another one, or the specifics of stats/costs, then changing them should have no impact whatsoever on how they can play the game.

[Teraswaerto]

Are there MP games played on 1000+ province maps? Where could I find one?

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry, Gandalf, but I disagree with what you're saying, pretty much entirely.

Variety is a wonderful thing, and it should be pretty obvious to any regular on these boards that I'm all for a huge diversity and variety in my choices, as to how I want to play any given game.
Bad units for the sake of variety and "role-playing" is fun, hoburgs are in the game for a reason, and I'm all for that too, but what we're discussing here is the complete mirror opposite, "variety for the sake of bad units".

Some units currently in the game are flawed-some deeply-and should be fixed, like a broken leg should be fixed. That's the process that leads to a well-balanced game. It takes time, and a surgeon's willingness to cut, but you potentially end up with a clean, stronger heal.

That doesn't mean you cut off the leg or get rid of the unit, it just means you do what's necessary to fix problems in such a way that they improve the health of the body itself-in this case, the body of the game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Teraswaerto said:
Are there MP games played on 1000+ province maps? Where could I find one?


They take quite awhile. Ive run 5. One is still running.
Ive had people grab some of my large maps to run games on.

I will eventually start another one but at the moment Im trying to iron out how to do a mega game (1500 provinces and all 76 nations)

[Dedas]

I really would like to participate in a mega game! Please start one for us Gandalf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Teraswaerto said:
Are there MP games played on 1000+ province maps? Where could I find one?



*shudders at the thought of the micromanagement needed for such an massive late-game*

[Teraswaerto]

I expect at those province numbers micro is no longer possible, or the turn timer is one turn per week or something. Learning to manage time would be very important.

[Gandalf Parker]

I figured on the fast-game folks enjoying the early game. Its only 20 provinces per player if all of the nation slots are filled, 25 per if the known nations are filled (21+21+18 I think). Then when they start feeling the drag they might turn their nations over to the MM folks by arranging a replacement or asking for subs. Then later in the game if their nation got knocked down they might ask back into it when it has massive research.

Here is the mod if you want to try it solo. Playing ea Ulm against ma Ulm and la Ulm is fun also.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/SingleAge.zip

The scores.html would look something like this
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/PvK-e-Oceania/scores.html
altho I have made improvements such as naming the nations with their age so you can tell early Ulm from late Ulm, and giving the empty slots at the end some generic names.

[MaxWilson]

quantum_mechani said:
That scale somehow magically balances also seems a bit of a fallacy. 250 infantry beat 100 light cavalry just the same as 25 infantry beat 10 light cavalry. The only major impact of really large maps balance wise is that eventually your options plateau as you run out of research to do. This situation makes balance even more necessary as you have one fewer way to 'niche' options.




Map scale has at least two other effects. 1.) Capital-only units become a smaller proportion of your forces. 2.) Map movement (including M/F/S/W Survival) becomes more of a factor in successful force concentration. Air/Astral magic probably becomes more important, too, for paratrooping.

I only play SP, and I haven't ever actually played a game all the way to completion on a 250-province map, but scaleability is always at the back of my mind. I simply don't have any fun with a nation whose best mages are all capitol-only. The pending nerf to Svartalfs has completely turned me off Helheim, for instance. On the Silent Seas map, though, it wouldn't matter.

-Max

[quantum_mechani]

MaxWilson said:

quantum_mechani said:
That scale somehow magically balances also seems a bit of a fallacy. 250 infantry beat 100 light cavalry just the same as 25 infantry beat 10 light cavalry. The only major impact of really large maps balance wise is that eventually your options plateau as you run out of research to do. This situation makes balance even more necessary as you have one fewer way to 'niche' options.




Map scale has at least two other effects. 1.) Capital-only units become a smaller proportion of your forces. 2.) Map movement (including M/F/S/W Survival) becomes more of a factor in successful force concentration. Air/Astral magic probably becomes more important, too, for paratrooping.

I only play SP, and I haven't ever actually played a game all the way to completion on a 250-province map, but scaleability is always at the back of my mind. I simply don't have any fun with a nation whose best mages are all capitol-only. The pending nerf to Svartalfs has completely turned me off Helheim, for instance. On the Silent Seas map, though, it wouldn't matter.

-Max

Those are valid points, but very little of balanceing that gets done (at least with CB) changes those things.

[Sir_Dr_D]

quantum_mechani said:

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.



You have Serpent Cataphracts listed as one of the extreme 'bite me's. I don't find them that bad.If you compare them to the independant knight, the knight has an extra point of defense and attack, but the Serpent Cataphract is tougher and ,because it turns into a regular lizard after, you have to kill it twice. The knight due to the lance has a greater damage potential for the first strike, but the Serpent Cataphract has slightly higher damage for all strikes after that, and they have lower encumbance. But then it is true that knights are cheaper, and they are faster.

And themetically, Pythium is supposed to have lower calibre calvary then other nations. Their strength is their infantry. Still the Serpent Cataphracts are only slightly inferior, and if you are unable to mass up independent knights, I find your army is better with them then without them. There is just times when you need faster troops.

If I was going to balance them I would simply give them one thing, swamp survival. (and i would consider a small poison resistance) I wouldn't want to change either their cost, or their stats, since the stats do seem to match there description. But swamp survial almost seems like something they should have, and would be enough to give them more of a use.

QM, I am curious on your take on it.

[quantum_mechani]

Darrel said:

quantum_mechani said:

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.



You have Serpent Cataphracts listed as one of the extreme 'bite me's. I don't find them that bad.If you compare them to the independant knight, the knight has an extra point of defense and attack, but the Serpent Cataphract is tougher and ,because it turns into a regular lizard after, you have to kill it twice. The knight due to the lance has a greater damage potential for the first strike, but the Serpent Cataphract has slightly higher damage for all strikes after that, and they have lower encumbance. But then it is true that knights are cheaper, and they are faster.

And themetically, Pythium is supposed to have lower calibre calvary then other nations. Their strength is their infantry. Still the Serpent Cataphracts are only slightly inferior, and if you are unable to mass up independent knights, I find your army is better with them then without them. There is just times when you need faster troops.

If I was going to balance them I would simply give them one thing, swamp survival. (and i would consider a small poison resistance) I wouldn't want to change either their cost, or their stats, since the stats do seem to match there description. But swamp survial almost seems like something they should have, and would be enough to give them more of a use.

QM, I am curious on your take on it.

Well, the problem is knights themeslves are somewhat marginal units. A huge investment that goes down the tubes very easy with battle magic. The lance is pretty much thier saving grace (much better than just plain higher damage, since they can actually threaten thugs/weak SCs). So an even more expensive unit with no lance has some real problems. Swamp survival seems reasonably thematic, but by itself doesn't begin to make up for thier cost.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Good point. Knights do tend to get targeted with all the spells. And it is hard to balance that. Technically it should be much harder to hit a fast moving knight with a lightning bolt, then a slow moving heavy infantry, but that isn't built into the game.

Still, knowing this it would be very hard for me not to build Serpent Cataphracts as Pythium, because the game is so much more fun with them.

[Sombre]

In CB the cost of the Serpent Cataphracts is dropped considerably and I find they're useful but not overpowered. Before I would never have built many of them - they could be made slightly more interesting with swamp survival and a bit of poisen res though. Would make them more usable alongside hydras.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Lowering the price is the only thing that can be done with the current tools that are available, I suppose. But thematicly the prices of the units in the base game do seem right. If you balance the amount of resources you spend each round amoung calvary and infantry, the amount of calvary you get compared to the infantry does seem right. It is the game mechanics that are wrong. If the game was able to make better use of movement, and 'attack rear most enemies' worked better so many units in the game would be balanced. As is, the CB mod is the best way to balance it.

Anyway, what brought this is up is I am currently in a multiplayer game where I am building a lot of Cataphracts. I should probably build less of them, but then I would be building almost only one type of unit, and dang it!, that just isn't as much fun.

[Sombre]

Maybe you should play CB multiplayer - that way you'd get a better deal on the serpents.

Also just because people say the serpents are bad doesn't mean it's certainyly true. If you use them heavily in a MP game you might come to a different conclusion. Of course I think you're more likely to see that you can't field enough of them because of the cost and that they get splattered by magic just as easily as cheaper troops.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I would like to play CB multiplayer. But the problem is too many people are opposed to the mod, and there are very few CB multiplayer games.

And I agree about the assesment about the unit. If I was facing them, i would certainly take advantage of the fact there were size 3 to wipe them out with spells. But still I will try to make use of them. When used with Hydras they are the national unit with the most chance of avoiding the Hydras posion, due to their faster speed and chance of getting behind the enemy.I just have to keep them out of the way of magic.

[HoneyBadger]

I think the problem with the CB mod is that a lot of people-including myself, I have to admit-felt that it was premature. It didn't come out long before the game itself came out, and the things it did, noone had time to figure out whether or not they were good ideas, necessary, or balanced.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly the CB mod does and doesn't do? I haven't read the posts on it in a while, and when I did, the ideas presented, I felt, made the game different, rather than balancing it out.

I'm open-minded towards the concept and, atleast in theory, I'd be willing to help, but I definitely don't have any real handle on it, and I'm a little wary of downloading it without knowing the exact changes and the exact reason why things were changed.

[Sombre]

Well there's a list of the exact changes in the mod-zip.

Morkilus also wrote a short guide explaining the rationale behind it.

I was a bit wary of it at first and I don't know it well enough to talk about how much better or worse it is, but I can see that's it's fixed a lot of things that bother me about the game, so I use it. For instance it makes light cavalry more useful and that means the AI isn't just throwing money down the drain when it uses them.

[quantum_mechani]

Darrel said:
I would like to play CB multiplayer. But the problem is too many people are opposed to the mod, and there are very few CB multiplayer games.


That's true on the forums, but on the dominions IRC channel CB is actually used more than base. And I don't think there are a whole lot of people opposed to the mod, just a couple of them and a lot of people going with the flow/not knowing much about it.

I think I did jump the gun a bit by releasing some CB so soon after game release, I didn't account for the big difference between the dom2 community and the dom3 one. The veteran dom2 players that stuck with the game long enough to try/get used to CB only made up a tiny fraction of the sudden masses of people.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, it really isn't your fault. I mean this game probably has atleast 4 times as many hardcore players as Dom2 did, and that's just a guess off the top of my head. I imagine that the "core" people playing it are significantly different too. More fractious-which can be a good thing, since the friction generates creativity. I honestly think it's that friction that has resulted in so many good mods.
Eventually, though, that friction is going to force a desire for a great many changes in how the game works and how it's balanced. As long as the CB mod keeps evolving, itself, and keeps in touch with what people want and what they want left alone, then eventually-maybe a year-it'll be a major player, where mods are concerned.

That's my opinion, which is one of the reasons I'm interested in helping out with it. As soon as I figure out the best way to do that-in a way I feel will be true to my own ideals for the game-then I'll offer my services, for what they're worth.

Right now, I'm just trying to get my own mods into the final stages, so I can show them off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm really going to try to get the one completed enough this weekend that I can atleast establish a thread for it, since I've got 4 days off, almost in a row.

[Gandalf Parker]

Keep in mind that QM had already played Dom3 for about a year before it was released as part of the beta team.

[Wikd Thots]

quantum_mechani said:

Darrel said:
I would like to play CB multiplayer. But the problem is too many people are opposed to the mod, and there are very few CB multiplayer games.


That's true on the forums, but on the dominions IRC channel CB is actually used more than base. And I don't think there are a whole lot of people opposed to the mod, just a couple of them and a lot of people going with the flow/not knowing much about it.



This made me laugh. I have been to the IRC channel and wonder if this is really how you see it. When I was there there were people wanting a plain game but none started. On the other hand there was also people wanting a CB mod game but it was only the guy who made the mod. One or two other people would agree to play it but no one else requested it (and that game didnt start also).

Most of the conversation was a turn off also. Too much like this thread. Nitpicky perfect or crap designations of every little thing which did nothing but trash the game. I think we need a new IRC channel.

[Sombre]

You don't like the thread feel free to just move along.

[quantum_mechani]

Wikd Thots said:

quantum_mechani said:

Darrel said:
I would like to play CB multiplayer. But the problem is too many people are opposed to the mod, and there are very few CB multiplayer games.


That's true on the forums, but on the dominions IRC channel CB is actually used more than base. And I don't think there are a whole lot of people opposed to the mod, just a couple of them and a lot of people going with the flow/not knowing much about it.



This made me laugh. I have been to the IRC channel and wonder if this is really how you see it. When I was there there were people wanting a plain game but none started. On the other hand there was also people wanting a CB mod game but it was only the guy who made the mod. One or two other people would agree to play it but no one else requested it (and that game didnt start also).

Most of the conversation was a turn off also. Too much like this thread. Nitpicky perfect or crap designations of every little thing which did nothing but trash the game. I think we need a new IRC channel.

The channel has it's ups and downs, for certain you can't get a game going by wandering in at any random time- there just aren't enough active players. And there have in recent times been a lot of newer players on the channel that want to try the game without CB, that's fine too.

However, if you don't enjoy talking about balance/relative merits of options, I agree it's probably not for you.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The sacred unit that I find the most usueless Pythium's battle vestals. If they weren't captial only you could at least mass produce them as flagellants. But as is, they deffinatly aren't worth putting and bless on them. Has anyone been able to get any use out of them?

Another dud unit in my opinion is the chariot archer. For the price of the chariot archer you could get one chariot, and 1 independant archer which is a way better deal. I am not sure though if when you kill the archer it turns into a normal chariot. (does anyone know) Then it would be more worth the price.

[Sombre]

I think it turns into a normal chariot, yes, which can make attacking them quite hazardous for small enemies.

[Edi]

It turns to a unit named "Archerless Chariot" that is essentially the same as a normal chariot. The Archerless Chariot disappears after the battle, though, like the Pythian serpent from the serpent cataphract, so I would not buy them. If the archerless chariot stayed around like the Machakan spiders, that would be a different thing and the unit would be worthwhile.

[Sombre]

Hmm. Well that's easy to mod. Just give them secondshape of the regular chariot and make them cost more.

Sounds like that change should be in the Counterbalance Mod.

[llamabeast]

With a W9 bless Pythium's vestals can be surprisingly efficient. Nasty, even. You just have to keep them out of the way of arrows.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Really? The Vestals have below avergae strength and only armed with spears.They have high defense though so they could be good holding off the enemy.

[Dedas]

Read up in the manual how fatigue work and you soon see why Vestals "only" armed with a spear are more than good.

Some hints: critical hits and halved protection.