Combat dropping AFV's?

[narwan]

Hi,

I'm looking for evidence (not just claims but evidence) that AFV's such as the BMD can be dropped (with parachutes) from a flying aircraft and after landing be able to drive off. And I'd like to see some evidence that this does not seriously affect onboard fighting equipment.
Now if it is possible I'd like to know how likely it is that you drive away with it. I'll immediately believe that it can be done succesfully in theory, but can it be done CONSISTENTLY?

Thanks,
Narwan

PS, this is more a matter of personal interest than it is an indirect comment on the game.

[thatguy96]

The parachute system for the BMD and ASU-85 was triple canopy and used upward firing rockets to reduce the shock of impact. Additionally, the BMD had a chassis that allowed it to be lowered so that again the shock was supposed to be reduced. I actually still have "BMD air dropped" in my google history, so I think that if pictures exist they're sparse on the internet.

From what I gather the Soviets actually did exercises and did just what you talk about, got into their vehicles on the ground and drove off. I would fathom that on the BMD and ASU-85 that there were not sensitive systems to be damaged.

The M551 is another story http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[narwan]

I know that's the theory. And undoubtedly there have been succesful exercises. Some even with troops in them if the claims by the soviet and now russian defence forces are correct. Wouldn't want to be in one of those.

But my question is whether this can be done RELIABLY. If you drop a company of BMD's and only 3 can drive off on average I wouldn't call it feasible in a militairy sense.
I suspect BMD's will very rarely be deployed that way due to the risks. This seems to be a much more sensible and common way to deploy:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/514503-bmd1.jpg

[PlasmaKrab]

Hopefully someone's got better info, but I did hear a wile ago that the early BMDs couldn't be reliably dropped and driven off, though that was what the original concept called for.
Apparently for reasons of reliability and weight, the BMD-1 and BMD-2 had to be dropped separately and empty, and loaded, crewed and started clean on the ground.
The BMD-3 was supposed to overcome this problem using reinforced suspension and new parachute loads.
I'll see if I can still find sources for this, but anyway I advise looking up data on the BMD-3 (and said improvements) as well as reports on last year's Sino-Russian airborne exercise (saw deployment of both Chinese and Russian mech airborne units with newest materials).

[Suhiir]

Can't say anything about BMD-3's but I once saw them test drop a filled 500 gallon "Water Bull" when I was in the Marines.
The chutes got tangled and it became the worlds largest water baloon *laughs*

[mr_clark]

Well, I've oly got a small part about it in "Militär Technische Hefte" about IFVs.
It says that the BMD1 is to be dropped without crew and that it worked well on many occasions.
I have read in some other WP publication that in certain manouvres in the 80s regimental sized BMD units were airdropped and that the damage rate was rather low, but that's all about it.

[thatguy96]

Did the VDV assault on Kabul aiport involve the use of airdropped AFVs? I would think this would be the sole combat scenario where such a maneauver would actually have been used.

[Jan]

mr_clark said:
Well, I've oly got a small part about it in "Militär Technische Hefte" about IFVs.
It says that the BMD1 is to be dropped without crew and that it worked well on many occasions.
I have read in some other WP publication that in certain manouvres in the 80s regimental sized BMD units were airdropped and that the damage rate was rather low, but that's all about it.



about these FTX that occured in the baltic area in the '80, a spetnatz that i met during a PSO in Kosovo told me that some soldiers were killed and several other were injured in some bad weather drops, sometimes more than 50% casuality rate. He lost one brother in such exercice and his brother in law have legs paralized.

Now, i've not asked to see the corps of his brother and such events were highly classified (even if i'm convinced that they were most a show directed to batlic states, particulary toward Denmark), so i have no evidences.

cheers,

Jan

[serg3d]

thatguy96 said:
Did the VDV assault on Kabul aiport involve the use of airdropped AFVs? I would think this would be the sole combat scenario where such a maneauver would actually have been used.



Nop. Airport, as well as the rest of the most important objectives in Kabul was captured either by spetsnaz or by troops protecting soviet military mission. Spetsnaz assaulted the President Palace. "Radio Afganistan" was captured by reckon company from the protection of the Soviet military mission, airport was most probably also captured by mission troops. VDV planes landed on the already captured airfield.

[basesurge]

For what it's worth, if anybody has any of those old Salamander Books "Soviet War Machine" books, there was a pic of a BMD or ASU (don't remember which) being "rocket-braked". I *strongly* suspect there was no crew in the vehicle at the time. This procedure was probably "semi-administrative" rather than something that would be conducted tactically. Did they do the LAPES thing with M551s? I'm not sure.

[mr_clark]

basesurge said:
... I *strongly* suspect there was no crew in the vehicle at the time. ...



For that I can only say that all WP manuals and Eastern Bloc military publications I have read state explicitly that the crew is not dropped in the vehicle.
From what I've read it would be more similar to a special forces drop with some heavy gear on palettes (as seen on TV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) with the crew and the infantriemen supposed to mount the vehicle jumping right behind it.

[MountainMan]

Genrally, keeping the crew inside an AFV while dropping it is a bad idea:

1. Landing impact shakes the crew up inside a vehicle full of sharp edges. Additionally, the human spine does not tolerate rapid vertical compression very well, and if your back is not perfectly straight when you hit, it tolerates the additional longitudinal stresses even less.

2. If the vehicle fails to set itself free automatically, the crew has to get out and do it manually anyway.

3. If they do not get out of the vehicle, they cannot inspect for damage that may be significant in combat.

Far better to run up, free the vehicle, look it over quickly, and go from there. The few seconds lost are well worth it in terms of survival.

[TLAM_Strike]

basesurge said:
For what it's worth, if anybody has any of those old Salamander Books "Soviet War Machine" books, there was a pic of a BMD or ASU (don't remember which) being "rocket-braked". I *strongly* suspect there was no crew in the vehicle at the time. This procedure was probably "semi-administrative" rather than something that would be conducted tactically. Did they do the LAPES thing with M551s? I'm not sure.



The Russians have quite a bit of experince using "Rocket Breaking" for landing objects. They use the same system for their Soyuz spacecraft (Perichute then Rockets before touch down). Unlike our (the USA's) spacecapsule programs they land on the ground in Siberia not at sea. Also I don't belive there has ever been a major acadent durring landing of the Soyuz (one whent off course and landed in the woods, the only fatality aboard one was on reentry IIRC.)

[SheaColandri]

FYI, the U.S. combat drop system (first used extensively at Khe Sanh) is the Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). A C-130 or C-17 does a touch & go and the cargo (AFV) pops a horizontal 'chute, dragging it out of the plane & skidding to a stop. Much easier on the cargo, but one may lose the plane if very close to the FEBA.