Nominate your "Tiny Tim" spell here!

[BigJMoney]

Hey folks, to steal some of the fire from the Vanheim/Helheim thread and, more honestly, to get people discussing some newer items that could be useful for the game, please nominate your "Tiny Tim" Dominions 3 spell and why. I say "Tiny Tim" because you are looking to name one spell in the game you think gets overlooked because it just seems a little too weak to be effective. The top ten nominees will be added to a poll and voted upon later. I'm hoping that modders et al will take note and consider giving the "bite sized" spell as much of a facelift as they possibly can. This may be by means other than simply modifying the spell (which I don't even think is possible).

/threads/images/Graemlins/PointRight.gifRule: Refrain from commenting upon others' nominations unless you are correcting a misstated fact!

/threads/images/Graemlins/PointRight.gifRule: You must explain why. It is pointless to nominate a spell without a "why"!

My nomination: Healing Touch. This spell is underpowered because it can almost never be used. By the time your troops are injured, they're on the front lines, and your mage having been set to "cast" can't even get to the front lines. For such rare magic, it doesn't really impress! Further, this spell won't ever get used because the one saving grace of touch spells doesn't apply to it: assassination/arena. You can't heal yourself with it!

<font color="blue"> The list thus far: (spells listed with reasons given by the person believing why they aren't useful enough)</font>
Healing Touch
"Will never get used"
Howl
"Summons flee too quickly"
Crumble
"Troops better for relative cost"
Dragon Master
"Far too much effort (research, gems, mage requirements); AI never uses it"
Spirit Curse
"Better options"
Bleed
"Doesn't do anything noticable"
Corpse Man
"Not worth the cost"
Stellar Focus
"Being global spell is too high an investment requirement"
Touch of Madness
"Can get you killed"
Raven Feast
"Tiny Rewards; corpses better intact"
Flare
"Its window of usefulness is too small"
<font color="red"> If I misunderstood anything, please correct me.</font>

These spells were named, but no reason was given. They cannot be nominated until there is some discussion:
Stream of Life
Harm
Leeching Touch
Hell Power
Astral Projection
Call Eater of Dead
Hand of Dust

=$= Big J Money =$=

[Sombre]

Dragon master?

Any spell involving the word 'touch'.

[Foodstamp]

Dragon Master

[NTJedi]

Howl = 2 nature gems and 2 nature path
the wolves flee very quickly

[Velusion]

I'll second any of the lower level touch attack spells as well. If you are close enough to touch an attacker the mage should be running not trying to annoy his attacker.

I wouldn't mind some uber-cool higher level touch spells though for when you your mage is buffed up... like a touch enslave that costs no fatige...

[Gandalf Parker]

.

[Tyrant]

Astral Projection

[Micah]

Seconded on touch spells, although fists of iron isn't too horrible.

I'm gonna throw up Crumble for nomination though, 20 earth gems, it doesn't do much of anything to the units inside, it requires a powerful mage at earth 5, and probably worst of all if your siege force isn't hurting the walls to begin with crumble won't let you storm the castle, since it happens before the defenders repair the walls, so they get the gate closed before you can issue orders. I think you'd be better off alching those earth gems and buying 200 gold worth of troops, at least those are reusable for the next fort.

[VedalkenBear]

90% of the Blood Magic combat spells. I think you can count off the nonawful ones on one hand.

[MaxWilson]

Um, okay. I was going to come up with something, but on reflection I agree with Gandalf. So instead I nominate Polymorph as the funniest spell. The description made me laugh out loud.

-Max

[Sombre]

I agree with Gandalf too. He is spot on as usual. Or dot on. Or is that a period? I can't tell.

[Gandalf Parker]

I had a comment but edited it out. It was un-gandalf in its tone

[vfb]

Okay, I've renamed the thread subject to something more constructive.

My nomination is Blink. What is an effective way to use this spell?

[Juzza]

I personally think that 1 of these 3 could be the most useless.

1. Spirit Curse: it costs a death gem to curse while there are other spells that cost no gems.
2 .Bleed: have never been able to use effectively, when with lots of casters.
3.Corpse Man Construction: even with one of the magic items hat increase the amount of corpse men to make, I still find them a waste of air gems.

[vfb]

Okay, slightly breaking rule #1, but here's the Spirit Curse description:

"The caster summons a malign spirit from the underworld and coerces it to curse an enemy. In return, it is set free to wreak havoc on the living. The spirit never joins battle."

I've happily used Spirit Curse a few times in the early goings, playing Agartha. I didn't notice any extra havoc, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place.

Does the "wreak havoc on the living" mean anything different than the "curse an enemy"? Is it just flavor? Or does something happen to the population where the battle is fought?

[MaxWilson]

Opposition is inferior to Soul Slay (lower range, restricted to magical beings) and a level-6 spell. AFAIK, useful only if you're going up the Enchantment tree anyway.

Stellar Focus is pretty dubious. Ench 7 and 30 gems for 5 pearls per turn. It would be okay if it weren't taking up a global slot, but by the time you get it there's pretty much always going to be another global somebody would rather have up, so you'll have to cast it with 100+ pearls to prevent it from getting dispelled, at which point it's just as cost-effective to invest in clams instead.

Gift of Nature's Bounty, on the other hand, sounds like an awesome global but I've never cast it.

-Max

[PvK]

I'm worried about (the AI maybe deciding unwisely to use) Mossbody, though I haven't seen it cast yet.

Otherwise, I can only think of two truly nearly-useless spells, but the thread rule says I'm not allowed to comment on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sandman]

Breaking the rules, but:

Opposition works against mindless magical constructs, whilst soul slay doesn't.

[Nick_K]

I think that Spirit Curse just inflicts a curse. Its utility seems clear - it's a 0 research way of cursing an enemy SC.

I cast gift of nature's bounty in a mid-sized SP game a while back and went from making a few thousand profit every turn to making over 12000. The income chat showed a dramatic jump, bigger than that I usually get on the gem income chart when I cast a gem-producing global. In summary, if you can keep the spell up, it is awesome.

Stellar focus could be ok in SP, I guess - I usually end up with all five global slots anyway.

The most powerful death touch spell deals massive damage. I don't think it's changed since Doms2 where I lost an air queen SC to it on the second turn of combat. Not something you'd script, but it can be very effective if the spell AI makes a clever choice.

Off the top of my head, I think that I might agree with the OP about healing touch - that provisionally gets my vote, but I'd really need to check the spell manual to be sure.

[Twan]

Ritual : Call the Eater of the Dead

Battle Spell : Hand of Dust

[SelfishGene]

Summon uh... i forgot what it's called.

It's the "make a Frankenstein" air/death spell, that creates a stronger zombie. One whole turn of mage time for one stupid zombie.

I still use it in single for kicks, but it's very inefficient and the unit it makes all but useless.

[right, lightning rod, book of Igor. It's still useless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif]

[Cor]

Touch of madness and the other one that drive folks berserk. they are worse than useless. They end up boning me half the time. I cant leave nature mages unscripted because of them.

[Olive]

Raven feast. Don't know if anyone has ever got more gems than the number of gems he put in the spell ?


Juzza said:
1. Spirit Curse: it costs a death gem to curse while there are other spells that cost no gems.




Depends, it can be worth the gem when you are attacked by an enemy sc pretender and have no SN mage. I was really happy to use the gem the time it happened to me.

Well... Hmmm... Am I not breaking rule # 1 ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Loren]

Gift of Nature's Bounty is awesome. Gobs of gold = gobs of troops.

In SP at least I have yet to lose a game in which I cast it.

[Sandman]

Cor said:
Touch of madness and the other one that drive folks berserk. they are worse than useless. They end up boning me half the time. I cant leave nature mages unscripted because of them.



Oh, yeah, they're awful. Maybe if they gave the beserker ability without actually making the target beserk...

[Morkilus]

Olive said:
Raven feast. Don't know if anyone has ever got more gems than the number of gems he put in the spell ?




Tee hee. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=283395)

[RonD]

Olive said:
Raven feast. Don't know if anyone has ever got more gems than the number of gems he put in the spell ?




Norfleet aside http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

The attached jpg comes from the turn after I nuked someone's capital with 2 or 3 Black Deaths. It seems you need to generate a lot of unburied corpses to make hay with raven feast, but it can be done.

[ologm]

Number of deathgems generated by ravenfeast was squareroot of corpses divided by three.

[Olive]

My bad, it seems useful in such cases. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[MaxWilson]

Sandman said:
Opposition works against mindless magical constructs, whilst soul slay doesn't.



Ah. That's not breaking the rules, then, because you're correcting my facts. I now know what Opposition is good for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

[Meglobob]

ologm said:
Number of deathgems generated by ravenfeast was squareroot of corpses divided by three.



I agree Ravenfeast is a (virtually) useless spell, it would be easy to fix really, just change the formula to squareroot, full stop or if that makes it too powerful, just divide by 2 not 3.

I have played loads of MP and the most corpses I have seen in a province is 500 or so and thats rare.

[Velusion]

Meglobob said:

ologm said:
Number of deathgems generated by ravenfeast was squareroot of corpses divided by three.



I agree Ravenfeast is a (virtually) useless spell, it would be easy to fix really, just change the formula to squareroot, full stop or if that makes it too powerful, just divide by 2 not 3.

I have played loads of MP and the most corpses I have seen in a province is 500 or so and thats rare.



In the Eventide game I was Ashen Ermor and was completely liquidating populations via pillage with gigantic armies. I got up to 1500-2000+ corpses pretty regularly I remember.... in two turns I could usually clear an entire province.

Unfortunately I didn't have an air mage high enough to cast Raven Feast but I had about 20 priests that were raising the dead and moving with the army.

[Taqwus]

If you were raising those corpses... might have been worth it for somebody else to cast Raven Feast to reduce your likely meatshield count.

[Sombre]

Kind of a big if, that.

Sorry to break topic, but that thread linked to by morkilus was hilarious. I had no idea Dom2 had such characters. Deny deny, deny, leave. Awesome. He could run for office.

[Velusion]

Taqwus said:
If you were raising those corpses... might have been worth it for somebody else to cast Raven Feast to reduce your likely meatshield count.



Bah, I could only raise a small percentage of the corpses before they rotted away even with the 15 dedicated priests.

[PvK]

You could've used the spell that raises 100 at a time...

[Velusion]

PvK said:
You could've used the spell that raises 100 at a time...



The death gems I would have spent to cast it were always much more important than chaff. But I would have liked to trade air gems for death gems as Ashen Ermor though...

I suppose all this to say that I think the spell can be very useful but only in very limited circumstances.

[Dedas]

Yeah, I wonder if Norfleet is still here somewhere reading this just now? Naaaah! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[calmon]

In combination with black death or tidal wave i use raevenfeast in mp games sometimes. Playing LA ermor helps too.

The spell could need a buff but not a big one. Otherwise the strategy to kill half of population and then cast ravenfeast will be too strong.

[Rathar]

I get a sick laugh everytime someone links to that norfleet is busted thread. Tis unimaginable to me that someone can be such a ****tard in a game, any game, but then I remember that we speak of humans, such incredibly vain, selfish, inconsiderate, egotistical, win at all costs beings such as we are and I am not surprised anymore.

Still blows me away how brazen this norfleet ***' lies were. NO shame, no guilt, nothing but blame for others. Just the sort of garbage I fantasize about exposing to sterility inducing chemicals for if they lie about things such as this which truly do not matter at all then should they have the possibility of breeding?

Pardon my vitrolic manner but I have had a bit to drink and by all the gods I am HEARTILY SICK of selfish ****ers like this..

Anyways yeah, Raven feast sucks donkey balls.. Used it several (3-4) times and never even got close to receiving what I spent on it (if you convert em) and the touch spells are ridiculous even without the 50% chance of casting when in melee range!

Rathar

[Dedas]

I just feel sorry for him as it seems he can control this behavior of his. Hopefully he sought some help before he actually hurt someone for real.

[Sandman]

Back to sucky spells, here's a good one: Flare. Fireball is only one research step higher, and is virtually identical except for much lighter fatigue.

[BigJMoney]

Okay, lots of input; very cool. Ironically, the two who were concerned about "I'm breaking rule #1..." didn't, and a few other people broke the rule, but it's not too bad because the thread hasn't gotten spammed, thrown off topic or turned into flame.

I'll give this more time for people to find it. Please remember to stay on topic, and if you look into the grimoire and wish to change your mind, go right ahead.

Additionally, if any of these spells have been affected positively by the CB mod, that's pertinent info.

=$=

PS -- In case anyone is offended by the title of this thread, I am sorry. Consider looking from another perspective. Read it as intended, "The most useless out the rest of the content." I'm simply being fair. No matter how wonderful the game is or ever could be, there will always be one spell that will be "most useless". Do not be offended by such an innocent word. It's not a diplomatic title, inviting unanimous agreement and warm sentiment, but neither is it a rude, demeaning, libelous or emotionally framed title either. It's a pure critique of one spell at a time, which I hope will remain without the uneccesary critique of each others' comments, alongside. I don't think it's wrong for any of us to have the opinion that maybe there are some spells that became overlooked in the grand scheme of such a complex game!

[Tyrant]

Oh, i forgot another one- Stream of Life

[Jazzepi]

Actually Stream of Life is a way for Pangea to deal with super creeps mid-late game.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

Yet another "what is crap in the game" thread which amounts to showing us that altho people keep saying there is alot of crap it doesnt amount to much since there is such a huge disagreement on what that crap is.

[tombom]

Gandalf Parker said:
Yet another "what is crap in the game" thread which amounts to showing us that altho people keep saying there is alot of crap it doesnt amount to much since there is such a huge disagreement on what that crap is.



Dominions 3 isn't perfect but I don't think this thread was here to complain, just discuss civilly in a slightly jokey fashion what they think about certain spells. Nothing wrong with it and not really deserving of a derisive post.

[Meglobob]

Gandalf Parker said:
Yet another "what is crap in the game" thread which amounts to showing us that altho people keep saying there is alot of crap it doesnt amount to much since there is such a huge disagreement on what that crap is.



You are being abit unfair here Gandalf, this is a very constructive thread, no one is knocking the game at all. Indeed, hopefully by the end we will have a list of some spells that could do with a 'retune' and some spells that people thought were useless but now release are useful given the right situations.

[Gandalf Parker]

Even without discussion of it you are getting disagreements. With discussion it might be shown to be another no-agreements subject therefor not worth the impression it gives.

But its not like Im taking official action. Its just my personal opinion which I allowed to leak out. Just mumble "gandalf fanboi" again and ignore it.

[Endoperez]

Most spells mentioned here are useful in the right situations. However, these cases often are are very rare and, more importantly, not something you could plan to use. Stream of Life is risky, but if it's the best you can do... Similarly, in the optimal case you never use the touch spells, but occassionally they can save the life of your caster.

[Dedas]

I would like to experiment more with the touch spells. Maybe one could use them effectively when expanding early?
It is risky though but with the right intelligence, in form of spies, and the right scripting, maybe this risk could be reduced? What do you think? Any ideas?

[Gandalf Parker]

Endoperez said:
Most spells mentioned here are useful in the right situations. However, these cases often are are very rare and, more importantly, not something you could plan to use. Stream of Life is risky, but if it's the best you can do... Similarly, in the optimal case you never use the touch spells, but occassionally they can save the life of your caster.


Or with certain SC's or certain pretenders or some are just for fun or role playing.

Of course there are still some that could stand to be made more useful so maybe its just the idea of generating an apparently long list of "useless" spells that bugs me. With so many dud units and dud nations and useless spells its a wonder that anyone visiting the forum bothers to try this game at all.

[Dedas]

Hey Gandalf, don't mind them help me instead with these touch spells. I'm sure there are some very good uses for them just waiting for me find, I just need a push to get in the right direction.
Do you use them? If you do, how?

Some questions:
*Is there some special mages that are better with touch spells than others? T'ien Ch'i LA come to mind.

*Items that help with surviving in close combat but don't add fatigue so you can cast spells.

*Bodyguards that don't get into the way.

[Endoperez]

I wouldn't plan to use the touch spells. In some cases, I might want to use Fire/Cold Blast, Shadow Bolt/Blast, Flame Eruption or some other improved versions of the touch spells, but not the touch spells themselves. However, I've seen Death mages annihilate a pair of thugs that managed to Attack Rear... You shouldn't plan on using them, but they could save your mage.

[Dedas]

I tried to use Eagle king and shockwave and it worked very well in early expansion.

Script: airshield/attack one turn/shockwave/attack one turn/shockwave/cast spells.

The Eagle King is actually a very good combat mage as he got armor, awe and high defense. If you use him in a standard bombardment fashion he will quickly build up fatigue due to his armor and with ranged spells costing more fatigue. So to use him most effectively as such you have to exchange his armor for something else. Pretty costly.

To ensure his safety I built 5-10 Tempest Warriors (75% shock resistance) set on guard commander.

After a couple of turns I had 5 Eagle Kings just charging in and obliterating everything.

After more experimenting I found out that they of course could forge themselves an amulet of missile protection (const2) each, eliminating the use for air shield spell. So I rapidly exchanged it for charge body; that worked exceptionally well. If I wanted I could also let them forge weightless tower shields getting their defense up to 22, and with all the experience they gathered from all the kills, they now had a cool 24 defense.
The forging is not needed of course, but it helps as after a while you want to go after bigger armies without backup. And air gems is not a problem for Caelum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Note the minimal research and that I had no losses. The stakes are high of course as each mage cost 400 gold. But if you do it right and choose your targets carefully it will work. Try it yourself, there are plenty of more to learn from this winged dude.


Next up, another combat mage.

[Shovah32]

3 E9N4 eagle kings set to bless, mistform, mirror image, attack one turn, shockwave, cast spells work well in taking out most pd/lvl 9 indies since even if they take damage(rarely) they heal it and they also tire slowly.

[Dedas]

Oreaid:

Or astral 9 or 10 for twist fate.

Some research required (const2, evocation2, alteration2). So use philosophers and sloth. You don't need more than one resource for building Oreaid anyway.
Build order:
Turn 1: Oreaid
Turn 2: Philosopher + build troops
Turn 3: Oreaid + build troops
Turn 4: Philosopher + build troops
Turn 5:.... and so on.

Research
Alteration 2
Evocation 2
Construction 2


Equipment:
Shield of Valor

They can forge it themselves. You will have the gems needed after you've researched the above. It won't take many turns, expand with your main army in the meantime.

Total cost: 400 gold, 5 earth, 5 air

When you are ready you will have about 4 Oreaids and 4 Philosophers. Use your scout as prophet and put on the shields on the Oreaids. With your scrying and stealth scout prophet and Oreaids you can choose freely which provinces to attack. Why not backstab another player in his rear territory?

Script for Oreaids:
Barkskin/Stoneskin/Resist lightning/Shock wave/Shock wave/Spells or attack.*

*Use only if you later equip them with some nice weapons. Don't worry, there will only be archers left on the battlefield anyway. No you shouldn't attack a whole army with these gals alone. If want to, use backup.

Script for Prophet
Divine blessing/Smite/Smite/Smite/Smite/Cast spells

Placement:
Oreaids on top of each other middle extreme forward. This is important because you want that lightning to really devastate the enemy in one round making the few survivors rout. No, it isn't likely they will get hit by arrows (they have parry 8*2 + air shield 80%). If you are really worried about this, use mist (evocation 3). The turn later they will also get twist fate and barkskin. The turn after that stoneskin, giving your Oreaids protection 15 on the whole body (later you want to combine this with light weight scale mail and black steel helmet giving you 23 prot).
Turn 3 the Oreaids will cast resist lightning and the enemy will be upon you maybe trying to strike you. With 17 defense, protection 15, awe 5, and twist fate they will not harm you - promise. But don't attack anything with very high morale until you get more equipment. Remember, this is early in the game and you got a very potent elite strike force with stealth, seduction and electricity. There are plenty of juicy targets. The joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The prophet should of course be placed very far back to avoid anything stupid.

Try it. These gals have loads of potential in close combat. There are also lots of nice spells and weapons later in the research tree. And if you want to attack evil mind burn mages, the Oreaids MR is nothing to sneeze at and doesn't get worse with the astral bless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Shockwave is a nice spell. But now something completely different...

[Sombre]

Gandalf Parker said:
Of course there are still some that could stand to be made more useful so maybe its just the idea of generating an apparently long list of "useless" spells that bugs me. With so many dud units and dud nations and useless spells its a wonder that anyone visiting the forum bothers to try this game at all.



I'm really sorry to go breaking the flow of this thread, but I'm getting tired of this kind of attitude. Why are people who are discussing problems with the game often accused of 'hating' the game? If people didn't like dominions3 they wouldn't be pointing out which spells are overcosted or underpowered and trying to fix them in mods, would they? Same deal for pointing out problems with the AI, higlighting units that they'd never build, trying to restore some balance to the Vans etc etc.

Some spells and units and so on in Vanilla just aren't balanced. No-one is claiming the game is bad, no-one is badmouthing the devs, no-one is being overly negative. It's just that there's no point in making lists of units/spells/nations that don't have balance problems is there? Acting like everything is perfect and labelling everyone who disagrees as 'haters', 'whiners' and people with no interest in RP, singleplayer etc is just silly.

As for people not trying the game, if they're daft enough to come to the conclusion that the game is bad by reading a couple of threads pointing out issues to be fixed (this game has active modders and fairly regular patches as a major reason to buy it in my opinion) then that's their problem. And if they measure up the good and bad of dom3 (and yes, there /is/ a list of bad points) and decide they don't want to buy the game,... how is that a bad thing? They're just making an informed decision. I personally get a lot of enjoyment from Dom3, but there are plenty of people who wouldn't and I'd never want to give them the wrong impression of the game, resulting in them buying it an being unhappy.

[Gandalf Parker]

Maybe its the choice of the wording which gives the appearance of trashing the game. I never said that was the intent, just the impression. Intent doesnt mean much if the entire forum seems to paint the game as crap. Try to even it out abit.

how about instead of saying "Some spells and units and so on in Vanilla just aren't balanced. No-one is claiming the game is bad, no-one is badmouthing the devs, no-one is being overly negative"
you might say "Some spells and units and so on in Vanilla just aren't balanced in my opinion" or even "in the opinion of some". That way it doesnt give the impression of bad-mouthing the devs.

[jutetrea]

Game is so far away from crap it isn't even funny... but that doesn't mean specific spells or units aren't "crap". IMO making a good thing even better is a worthwhile goal.

IMO touch spells aren't that useful, but the short range (1-5) with a big AOE are great - powerful yet risky.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I don't have a vote yet to the most useless spell. There is more and more spells all the time that I think are useless but then I find a use for.

Touch spells generally aren't usefull, and I have never tried using them, but they could help you against an assination attempt or in the arena. Once I forgot to script my pretender. He randommly changed between moving, attacking, and casting spells. So the effect was he was moving forward, and casting spells like freezing touch. The damge from that spell was a lot.

And could some of those healing spells not be used when you are expecting long range poison attacks. Or you cast the battlefield spell that has a chance to poison everybody, and you have mages scripted amonst your archers to continuosly heal.

[danm]

Gandalf Parker mumbled:

"fanboi"



tee hee

(arn't we all tho? i don't feel like this thread is trashing the devs or game at all, personallly)

[BigJMoney]

Gandalf, I think you and I have different impressions of the forum, in general. I come here assuming that a minority of the people who purchase the game actually browse the forums, and those that do are all fanboys; that's why we're here. So, I guess I'm bold about the way I word things because I know nobody is going to take it personally, and it certainly isn't going to force them to enjoy the game less. You might be taking it personally, I guess, but you have to admit that nothing I say is manipulating (intended or not) you to enjoy the game less. Further, I have not seen anyone state they will not be buying the game because of things they've read on these forums. However, since you represent the officials here, let me see if I can change the thread title to remove any suspicion.

Again, it goes without saying, everyone in this joint is nuts about this game. Gamers know that criticism = love. As an example, a PC game that I don't like is Age of Empires 3. You will never see me criticizing that game; it sucks and I don't care to waste my energy/time trying to figure out why.

@Dedas
Sir, stop derailing this thread, please. You are doing yourself a disfavor by not properly threading your own discussion, because people need to know where to look for it.

[Sombre]

What about Reanimation?

5 death gems for a handful of skellingtons? That's unpossible!

[Dedas]

Sorry for that, BigJMoney.

[BigJMoney]

@foodstamp

You nominated Dragon Master. I'm curious as to why you think it is the most underpowered in the game, because you didn't write why!

=$=

[BigJMoney]

@vedalkenbear

Do a favor and choose one out of those 90%. It might deserve nomination.

@PvK
I'm not sure I get your drift. You aren't supposed to comment on others opinions, but if someone has already listed a spell, you can most certainly state that spell as also being your pick, and your opinions on it.

=$=

[Gandalf Parker]

I cant really think of a spell. But I will admit that Im disappointed with "the Exploding Amulet". I really wanted to use Harpy scouts as kamikazes against enemy mages.

[Nix]

Dedas said:
I tried to use Eagle king and shockwave and it worked very well in early expansion.

Script: airshield/attack one turn/shockwave/attack one turn/shockwave/cast spells.

The Eagle King is actually a very good combat mage as he got armor, awe and high defense. If you use him in a standard bombardment fashion he will quickly build up fatigue due to his armor and with ranged spells costing more fatigue. So to use him most effectively as such you have to exchange his armor for something else. Pretty costly.

To ensure his safety I built 5-10 Tempest Warriors (75% shock resistance) set on guard commander.

After a couple of turns I had 5 Eagle Kings just charging in and obliterating everything.

After more experimenting I found out that they of course could forge themselves an amulet of missile protection (const2) each, eliminating the use for air shield spell. So I rapidly exchanged it for charge body; that worked exceptionally well. If I wanted I could also let them forge weightless tower shields getting their defense up to 22, and with all the experience they gathered from all the kills, they now had a cool 24 defense.
The forging is not needed of course, but it helps as after a while you want to go after bigger armies without backup. And air gems is not a problem for Caelum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Note the minimal research and that I had no losses. The stakes are high of course as each mage cost 400 gold. But if you do it right and choose your targets carefully it will work. Try it yourself, there are plenty of more to learn from this winged dude.


Next up, another combat mage.



You can do it early-game with a Virtue pretender as well. I like to go with a dormant A9 high-dominion Virtue - it wakes up around the same time you get to Evoc 2 and you can get to the point right away. Plus, the Virtue has such great movement that you can fly around enemy domains causing havoc as they likely won't have sufficient defenses at that point in the game.

[VedalkenBear]

Hmm, Blood spell? Lessee....

Oh, let's try Harm?
Leeching Touch falls under the 'touch attack therefore bad' heading.
Hell Power just does not look worth it, though I can see a few niche uses.

Those are the most egregious contenders. I think the +Str spells are also pretty much crap.

[Endoperez]

Gandalf Parker said:
Maybe its the choice of the wording which gives the appearance of trashing the game. I never said that was the intent, just the impression. Intent doesnt mean much if the entire forum seems to paint the game as crap. Try to even it out abit.



Sorry about continuing this line of discussion one post more, but I agree with Sombre in that lately your posts seem to have been arguing against other people's opinions a bit agressively.

Maybe its the choice of the wording which gives the appearance of trashing those voicing out their problems with the game. I never said that was the intent, just the impression. Intent doesnt mean much if the entire forum seems to paint all opposing views as crap. Try to even it out abit.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

You are probably right. I need an opinionectomy. Its hard to read every post day after day and only moderate.

[Foodstamp]

Lawl @ the new title to this thread.

Btw, still Dragon Master in my book http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[llamabeast]

I don't think you need an opinionectomy Gandalf. Far from it, you should still have a right to your opinion even as a moderator. I do think you may have been reading people as being much more negative than they were intending though. It's true that basically, all of us on this forum are fanboys, we all think the game is absolutely fantastic.

The thing is that it's easier and more interesting to discuss things that could be *even* better, and what might benefit from tweaks than it is to reiterate that we like the game. The most minor of flaws are more discussable than merits. It's the same reason why papers are full of bad news even when everyone likes to hear good news - there's more to say about it.

[BigJMoney]

*shakes his fist at foodstamp's defiance*

Why, blast you, WHY!?!?! You are supposed ... to ... be ... telling ..... us ....... WHY!

Actually, the reason I am so adamant to hear your opinion on why you think DragonMaster is an overlooked spell (besides rule #2, ehem) is because I make good use of it often, and I'm curious to hear another opinion.

=$=

[Sombre]

Probably because it's too high level, costs too much to cast, is in the wrong path to be useful, has high path requirements, never works out for the AI and only assists in using a spell that even at 3 times the power is still fairly poor.

[BigJMoney]

Okay, the OP has been updated. A lot of people named spells without giving reasons, and I've listed them separately. I'll keep this going a total of one week. That's one week for people to get in here and add any info they think pertinent or new spells to the list. Phase#2 will start after the week is out.

=$=

[vfb]

Very well: Blink can be an annoying spell because if it somehow gets cast, my mage blinks from a nice safe place behind the lines, right into the range of archers or towers, or even worse, into the midst of melee.

[Foodstamp]

I was going to nominate blink, but I wasn't 100% sure it was completely useless. It comes very early on the research tree and it annoys me to no end when a mage blinks into a dire situation.

Does this spell have any utility later on? The reason I seconded Dragon Master instead of choosing blink is because I was not sure if there was a useful application later on.

[vfb]

I was thinking that perhaps a S1+ melee thug could blink into the mages in the enemy backfield and wreak havoc. But since blink is totally random, you're just as likely to end up somewhere useless. And S1+ melee thugs are not exactly common afaik.

[UncleYee]

Oy, vey! The Golem maybe is what you should be thinking of?

[vfb]

Ha ha ha, yes I should http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Thanks UncleYee.

Please take blink off the list. It would probably be quite helpful for a handful of Golems who were storming a castle to all cast blink on the first turn. Half of them should end up wreaking havoc inside the enemy walls. Can't wait for the new patch to come out, I'll give it a try with Marverni!

[Endoperez]

BigJMoney said:
*shakes his fist at foodstamp's defiance*

Why, blast you, WHY!?!?! You are supposed ... to ... be ... telling ..... us ....... WHY!



It only helps few low-level Conjurations, while it itself isn't in Conjuration, and isn't low-level. By the time you have Dragon Master, you usually don't have need for low-level summons, and if you do, you probably should have gone for high-level Conjuration instead.

Dragon Master takes Nature, but the spells it helps with take Fire, Air, Water or Earth. Mages capable of casting Dragon Master and more than one of the summoning spells are rare, and the ones capable of casting even one of the drake spells aren't common either.

It's too little, too late, for too few nations. If Dragon Mastery was in Conjuration, or of lower level, and had easier Nature requirement, it could be useful.

EDIT: ARgh! I didn't notice the last page... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[BigJMoney]

I've seen blink funtion in another way. I've seen mages get attacked in melee then blink to safety to cast other spells. It never kept them alive very long, but there's something. I am curious how that spell is chosen by the AI, since it's not a spell you'd likely script.

Blink has been taken off the list for now unless someone still feels its the weakest spell compared to all the others.

=$=

PS -- When time comes to vote on most useless I have a pretty strong argument against Dragon Master, I think.

[Ubercat]

Interesting negative takes on dragonmaster. I'm a pretty inexperienced player and had the good fortune to make good use of it in a couple of my earliest games.

I was playing a rainbow archmage, though, and on a big map. By early lategame I had 3-5 rampaging armies of 60+ fire drakes, barbecuing one enemy force after another.

Early on, my pretender site searched and laid the foundation for the gem income which enabled me to set up 2-3 summoning squads. Each with 2-3 mages snagging 6-9 drakes per turn.

After a couple games of this strategy I didn't use it again since it was too easy. I didn't realise at the time that it was only a rainbow pretender which made it possible and practical.

[Manuk]

blink is not good mainly for the same reason berserk is. If a mage its not scripted or scripted to do something he cant.
he will cast this spells that do a lot more harm than if he didnt do nothing.
ex. turn one blink by a guru right next to enemy meleers. no armor, fatigued, alone. why did he do that?

[SlipperyJim]

I just want to echo the gripe about Touch of Madness. Silly Nature mages keep casting it on my missile troops.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

(mumbles something about "Why do Mothers of Avalon hate my Longbowmen so much?")

[MaxWilson]

Ubercat said:
Early on, my pretender site searched and laid the foundation for the gem income which enabled me to set up 2-3 summoning squads. Each with 2-3 mages snagging 6-9 drakes per turn.

After a couple games of this strategy I didn't use it again since it was too easy. I didn't realise at the time that it was only a rainbow pretender which made it possible and practical.



Actually, I think the hard part is having national mages with access to both high nature paths and an elemental path. What nation were you playing?

-Max

[lch]

I think the list gives opportunity to discussion, if I am violating one of the rules I can remove my post. A few things that popped into my mind:

Corpse Man
"Not worth the cost"
- there are at least two items which increase the amount of corpses you get, and they stack. It gives undeads for magic paths which normally don't get them (?), and there's this very thematic Frankenstein's monster feel to it...

Raven Feast
"Tiny Rewards; corpses better intact"
- if you cast it on your territory, yes, then you probably have better options with the corpses, but you can cast it on enemy provinces (even from allies), too, after a big fight and convert air gems to death gems. Plus, maybe you'd want to exactly deny an enemy to have corpses because they might be able to use them?

[Ubercat]

MaxWilson said:

Ubercat said:
Early on, my pretender site searched and laid the foundation for the gem income which enabled me to set up 2-3 summoning squads. Each with 2-3 mages snagging 6-9 drakes per turn.

After a couple games of this strategy I didn't use it again since it was too easy. I didn't realise at the time that it was only a rainbow pretender which made it possible and practical.



Actually, I think the hard part is having national mages with access to both high nature paths and an elemental path. What nation were you playing?

-Max



Marignon. My archmage had about 6 paths at level 4. He got me such an income that I was able to empower 9-12 of my mages to N3 for dragonmaster. Come to think of it, I believe I found a site that made druids recruitable at one point so I was able to make even more N3 mages.

This was before dragonmaster got patched too, so it would randomly vanish sometimes and I'd have to recast. I didn't realise it was a bug and was trying to figure out what I was doing that invalidated the spell!

[Sombre]

Well if you put such a huge amount of effort and gems into it any spell can be used to win the game, pretty much. That doesn't make it useful or cost effective. You could have won much more easily with the gems you burned empowering, casting DM and summoning drakes.

Another problem with DM - the AI loves to cast it (when playing MA Oceania for instance), but the AI doesn't love to summon drakes. There's nothing linking the two spells in the AI.