Dragons

[Juzza]

Hey there, what I want to discus here is, first the strength of dragons, I think that mainly they just need a better weapon, something similar to the Harvest Blade, what I mean by that is that their claws, yes dragons have 2! claws not just one, should have an area effect of 1, simply to show that they are massive creatures capable of smashing through enemy ranks, of coarse for them to survive for a long time fighting an army, well thats still up to the player, I just think their not quite powerful enough.

[Dedas]

Just give them dominion 10, script them to fire closest and watch the slaughter. Do NOT attack the knights you can find in MA and LA as they have very high morale and will soon make dragon stew out of you. Knights kill dragons - it's their job you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Giving them weapon Claws instead of Claw would help a bit. Giving each dragon a unique Bite that'd have secondary effect (fire, frost or poison) and dam 3, def 0, length 1 instead of dam 2, def -1, length 0. The secondary effect would require #secondaryeffectalways, which doesn't currently work.

10 points of AP fire damage for red, 7 points of AN cold, stun damage for blue and severe poisoning for green dragon are what I'd add. All would have AoE 1. Other suggestions are welcome, as it might make dragons too good; they are already very touch bless chassises as-is, and I wouldn't want them to steal any more of Manticore's thunder.

[Velusion]

Juzza said:
Hey there, what I want to discus here is, first the strength of dragons, I think that mainly they just need a better weapon, something similar to the Harvest Blade, what I mean by that is that their claws, yes dragons have 2! claws not just one, should have an area effect of 1, simply to show that they are massive creatures capable of smashing through enemy ranks, of coarse for them to survive for a long time fighting an army, well thats still up to the player, I just think their not quite powerful enough.



Alot of people (and I was one of them) don't notice right away that the dragons have a breath ability which can be activated by "fire" orders.

You didn't mention that so I thought I'd make sure you knew about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I wouldn't mind if they were more powerful in Melee - but I think they would need a pretender point cost increase... Of all the pretenders out there Dragons are some of the few that I think are reasonably priced.

[Dedas]

Try the undead dragon (don't remember the name), it has fear and death magic, thus boostable fear. Combine that with awe and you have an literally awesome beast.

[Gandalf Parker]

One of the good points of the dragons was originally meant to be the surprise created by the fact that the research form is ALWAYS a duplicate of another pretender that is available. That the enemy would take for granted you had a low-hp mage standing there which might easily be killed.

Unfortunately, it doesnt seem to play out that way?

[quantum_mechani]

Gandalf Parker said:


Unfortunately, it doesnt seem to play out that way?

For several reasons. One is that the rainbow mages they impersonate are so suboptimal people are highly sceptical that someone actually choose one. Another is that of course the magic paths they would have would look nothing like what the rainbow would have. But most importantly, to actually be mistaken the rainbow you would have to leave the dragon in the rainbow form, effectively wasting it's main use, early expanding.

[Shovah32]

And when people see your pretender has several hundred kills in the first few turns of the game they get suspicious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Dedas]

There isn't gold at the end of the rainbow so to speak... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

And why would you take a human rainbow when you can get similar magic on a stronger ghost king or safer(immortality) master lich? Maybe in single player where your pretender is safe and you want alot of magic but i dont think you would try it in competitive multiplayer.

[Endoperez]

They are supposed to be more viable due to cheaper starting path costs. It isn't enough to make them competitive.

[MaxWilson]

IIRC, the Dracolich impersonates a Bog Mummy which IS immortal, so you have the odd situation of the fake form looking less durable than the real form--there's actually a quite plausible reason to take a Bog Mummy as an SC so you wouldn't spot it purely because of that. However, you could tell the difference by checking the paths.

What if dragons had a higher base cost and lower path cost? Say, gcost 110 and pathcost 20. It's cheaper than the existing dragon chassis if and only if you take three or more paths. It would encourage rainbow-ism in these oh-so-magical dragons, but when they transformed into dragon form they'd have to rely mainly on their primary path. The one potential downside I see is that it tips the balance in favor of one major/multiple minor blesses as opposed to the current dual-bless usage for dragons.

-Max

[Meglobob]

Velusion said:I think they would need a pretender point cost increase...



No! Please no! I like the dragon, its one of my favourite awake pretenders, so please don't increase the cost.


Gandalf Parker said:Unfortunately, it doesnt seem to play out that way?



No, because a dragon on the strategic map tends to draw the eye. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Velusion]

Endoperez said:
They are supposed to be more viable due to cheaper starting path costs. It isn't enough to make them competitive.



It would be nice if they started out with more magic - so someone isn't forced to take bad scales and/or low dominion to make a rainbow. A little more domain would work as well - though more magic would seem more thematically correct to me.

[Meglobob]

Velusion said:

Endoperez said:
They are supposed to be more viable due to cheaper starting path costs. It isn't enough to make them competitive.



It would be nice if they started out with more magic - so someone isn't forced to take bad scales and/or low dominion to make a rainbow. A little more domain would work as well - though more magic would seem more thematically correct to me.



Perhaps give each dragon 1 more magic path or higher dominion?

Red - Fire/Death
Blue - Water/Air
Green - Nature/Blood

Note I have purposely avoided the 'favourite' bless combos so as to not make them overpowered for the mega bless stratagies. Just a idea... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

Fire/Death is a rather powerful combination that's already covered by several pretenders. What about Fire/Air and Water/(Death or Earth)

[Meglobob]

Endoperez said:
Fire/Death is a rather powerful combination that's already covered by several pretenders. What about Fire/Air and Water/(Death or Earth)



Yea, fire/air works too, I see fire/death as more themematc, they are made to be together. Water/Death can be a powerful bless combo and water/earth just doesn't go together, I am thinking of a water dragon as spending all its time either in the water or air.

I suppose another way would just be to attach a path of air to them all.

Fire/air
Water/air
Nature/air

This is thematic as dragons fly, thus are at home in the air element. Air is a weak bless, so no worries about being overpowered for a bless strategy either.

[quantum_mechani]

I find dragons rather well balanced as they are. My only issue is perhaps that the blue dragon overshadows red and green a bit.

[Shovah32]

Because of the larger AoE breath attack, the high defence, or the fact that w9 works very well as a bless on its own?

[Ironhawk]

Why do you say that, q? The defense?

[quantum_mechani]

Yes, the bonus defense and the fact if you are doing a single 9, water is almost always the first bless choice.

[Sombre]

I say just give him slightly less hp than the others. Put something in the description saying he's slightly smaller.

Only a very minor change, but makes sense if he's basically just a touch better than the others.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I like that less hitpoint idea.