US TOE Questions

[Marcello]

Following some semi succesful prodding around for info about the iraqi OOB I have decided for a major overhaul of the New Iraqi Army formations along US lines. Given however that the iraqis lack many pieces of equipment (like ATGMs) I cannot simply import US formations as they are but I have to "translate" them. I will therefore use this thread to ask for some questions about US TOE.

First question: OOB 12, formation 203 Rifle Platoon.
This unit has a MMG section. I take that it is supposed to represent two tripod mounted MMGs. What I do not get is the LMG count. FM 7-10 tables would suggest six machine guns in total, which would work out as those aforementioned MMGs and one LMG per squad. However US squads get two LMGs in the US OOB. Has the number of LMGs been increased?

[thatguy96]

I just looked at the copy of FM 7-10 on Globalsecurity.org and find the pictures to be quite confusing myself mainly because the key says "machine gun 7.62mm/5.56mm" which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

US Squads get two automatic rifles per squad plus the MG section at platoon level. This should roughly equate to 2 M249 x N number of squads, plus 2 M240B in the current TO&E. The 2 auto rifleman per squad has been a fixture of US squads since 1956.

EDIT: Looking at it again, I think the 6 LMG's its referring to are the 2 MG's per platoon in the platoon MG section. This is the only way this makes sense.

Furthermore, since FM 7-10 is for Infantry Companies, I wouldn't expect it to bother describing notable systems down to squad level, only at platoon level, further supporting this theory.

[Marcello]

"US Squads get two automatic rifles per squad"

Yes, I had momentarily overlooked the US propensity for fire teams organization (typically i research armies where the emphasis is still on the squad). A typical squad cannot have just one LMG if it supposed to be able to split.

[thatguy96]

Just keep in mind that the M249 at squad level in the US Army is classed as an "automatic rifle" (see FM 23-14 M249 LIGHT MACHINE GUN IN THE AUTOMATIC RIFLE ROLE (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-14/index.html)), not as an LMG (though the manual itself admits that this was perhaps the manufacturer's intended role for the weapon). The M240B, consided by some to be an LMG is used as an LMG/MMG, but only at platoon level.

[Marcello]

Well, the iraqis get the PKM, so that is a non issue.

[Marcello]

Another question. If I have understood correctly the Stryker company gets a MGS platoon and a couple of SP mortars as organic support. Now, does an US company mounted on M113s typically get a couple of organic SP mortars as well?

[thatguy96]

The only copy of FM 7-11 Rifle Company, Infantry, Airborne Infantry, and Mechanized Infantry I actually have on my comp is dated 16 Jan 1962. However, I would think that on a level the organization described would probably continue to this day in general terms. It would likely fluctuate no more than that of the standard Infantry Company. If you therefore have a more recent copy of the appropriate FM for a regular Infantry Company you could likely build from what I'm about to quote out of the FM that I have from around when the M113 was introduced.

"The weapons platoon of the mechanized infantry rifle company differs in that the four 3/4-ton trucks in the mortar section are replaced by one APC and three mortar carriers, full tracked. There are two radio telephone operators and one APC driver (who is also a radiotelephone operator) in the mortar section headquarters. Each mortar squad has only one ammunition bearer, and one APC driver who is also a radiotelephone operator."

[SGTGunn]

The Mechanized Infantry Platoon and Squad (M113)has two different tables of organizational equipment (TO&E): the older "H" TO&E and the newer "J" TO&E.

The "H" TO&E platoon has three 11-man rifle squads and one 7-man headquarters section.

The HQ section is comprised of the:

Vehicle Crew:

Driver
Track Commander/Gunner (Plt Sgt)

Dismounts:

Platoon Leader
Platoon RTO
Forward Observer
FO RTO
Plaoon Medic


The three squads are comprised of:

Vehicle crew:

Driver
Track Commander & Gunner (Team Leader)

Dismounts:

Squad Leader (M16)
Assistant Squad Leader (M16 and M203 GL)
Machine Gunner (M60 and M1911A1 or M9 pistol)
2 x Automatic Rifleman (M249 SAW or M16 SAW)
2 x Rifleman (M16)
Grenadier (M16 with M203 GL)
Anti-Armor Specialist (M47 Dragon & M16)

M67 frag grenades, M72 LAWs and M18 claymore mines would also be carried.

The "J" TO&E Platoon came about with the widespread adoption of the M249 SAW which lead to the removal of the M60 machine gunner as an organic "squad" member - but keeps the gun. It is comprised of one 7-man HQ section and three 9-man squads.

The HQ section is identical to the "H" TO&E with one exception - the Platoon Sgt though part of the HQ section rides in a squad APC - the idea was not to have your #1 & #2 man in the same track. One of the team leaders in the track the Plt Sgt rides in takes his place as TC/Gunner on the Plt HQ track. Confused yet? =)

The three squads are comprised of:

Vehicle crew:

Driver
Track Commander & Gunner (Team Leader)

Dismounts:

Squad Leader (M16)
Assistant Squad Leader (M16 - maybe M203 GL)
2 x Automatic Rifleman (M249 SAW or M16 SAW)
Rifleman (M16)
Grenadier (M16 with M203 GL)
Anti-Armor Specialist (M47 Dragon & M16)
M60 Machine Gun - no crew assigned. Weapon can be deployed for defense or in other scenarios were increased fire power is needed. It is likely that the MG would be manned by either an automatic rifleman or the grenadier, with the rifleman acting as the assistant gunner.

I suspect that whenever unit strength allowed it, an extra man would be carried in the squad to man the M60.

All of the above comes from FM 7-7 Mech Inf Plt & Sqd (M113)March 1985 (the last revision of this FM).

Adrian

[Marcello]

Is there anything specific on the mechanized infantry companies? All the stuff I have found is for the platoon level.

[thatguy96]

Its still FM 7-11, you just would want a more recent one that I've quoted from (though I'm sure the logic still stands, that whatever mortars an infantry company has at company level, a mech company has in tracks, same with other heavy weapons I'm sure)

[SGTGunn]

I'm not sure there is a newer version of FM 7-11 than the 1962 revision... I can look around my armory for a hard copy, but FM 7-11 is no longer "current" and is not available on AKO (Army Knowledge Online). Are you looking for an M113 based TO&E for a specific time period? During the 60's and 70's the M113 mech companies had 3 M125 81mm mortar carriers in the company mortar platoon plus 1 M113 for the FDC. These seem to have been dropped at some point, because a more recent M113 mech unit (Massachusetts Army National Guard) did not have mortar carriers at the company level. I think the unit had 3 81mm mortars, but they were not mounted in carriers. The only SP mortars were the M106A1 4.2" mortar carriers in the battalion mortar platoon. This was 1998-2000 time frame. Post 2000 the unit converted to a light infantry TO&E and was probably one of the last M113 based mech infantry battalions in the US Army.

Adrian

[Marcello]

The issue is basically this. In the next six months the iraqis are going to get a big shipment of american made (although they apparently will come from third parties rather than US) equipment: 600-800 M60 tanks, artillery etc. Included are 4000 APCs, many of which M113s. This has prompted me to give a closer look at the iraqi organization. As far as I have been told and read US organization practices are followed when possible. So I was looking for US templates to follow to fill the gaps where the info is not available.

[thatguy96]

SGTGunn said:
I'm not sure there is a newer version of FM 7-11 than the 1962 revision... I can look around my armory for a hard copy, but FM 7-11 is no longer "current" and is not available on AKO (Army Knowledge Online).


Did not know that. I stand corrected.

The company mortar platoon org you're describing for the '60s and '70s is the one in FM 7-11 though, 3 mortar carriers and 1 track as command vehicle/FDC

[Suhiir]

Being a former Marine I've never quite understood the Army's approach to mortars.

During WWII and Vietnam the Marines had 60mm's at company level, 81mm's at battalion, and 4.2inch at regiment. Currently we don't have the 4.2inch active but I strongly suspect the new 120's will wind up at regiment.

The Army doesn't use the 60mm's much, given the extra firepower they get from most of their units being mechanized I can understand that. They had the 81's at company level in the 70's as mentioned above but now seem to have dropped them altogether and are left with only the battalion 120's.

I guess my question is - why doesn't the Army like mortars? Are they just assumeing the artillery battalion in each of their brigades is enough indirect fire support?

[SGTGunn]

The army makes extensive use of 60mm mortars, though not in mech units. Army light, airborne, air assault, and ranger companies have an organic 2 tube 60mm mortar section. At the battalion level, Army light, airborne and air assault battalions have a 6 tube 81mm mortar platoon. Ranger battalions have no battalion level mortars. The old M113 APC mech companies (which may still exist in a handful of NG units) had 3 81mm M125 SP mortars instead of the lighter 60mm mortar. All Bradley equipped mech infantry battalions and tank battalions have a 120mm mortar platoon with the M106A2 mortar carrier. Stryker equipped cavalry troops (RSTA) have an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. The Stryker infantry company has an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. In addition there are two 60mm mortars carried in the M1129 for dismounted use.

Adrian

[SGTGunn]

I suspect that what we will see is the standard Iraqi army infantry TO&E simply given the M113s with out much change to their organization. That is what the US Army is currently doing with various non-mech units in Iraq. For example a light infantry platoon will get 4 M113A3s to use in mounted operations. They either have to scrounge up some extra bodies to use as drivers and TCs or lose 2 men out of each squad (probably a rifleman and team leader) to fill those spots. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find "extra" bodies from company HQ platoons and battalion HHC getting pressed into service in that role (especially as drivers) to allow the infantry squads to maximize their dismount capabilities.

If there was no specific mention of mortar carriers (M125 and M106) going to the Iraqi army my guess they aren't getting any. The US has a lot of "extra" M113s as they were (and still are) used by just about everyone in heavy formations from mechanics to medics to engineers as a generic armored utility vehicle. Mortar carriers are more rare, and many of them are still in use by the US Army as the M106A2 (older M106A1s were converted, and I suspect so were at least some M125s). So I think we'll see the Iraqi army using non-mechanized mortars (81mm/82mm and 120mm) carried in trucks or towed in the case of the 120mm. Not sure if they still have any of their MT-LB mortar carriers, but they may use those. As I understand it the first Mech Brigade of the New Iraqi Army is using MT-LBs as APCs.

This of course, is only speculation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Adrian

[Suhiir]

SGTGunn said:
The army makes extensive use of 60mm mortars, though not in mech units. Army light, airborne, air assault, and ranger companies have an organic 2 tube 60mm mortar section. At the battalion level, Army light, airborne and air assault battalions have a 6 tube 81mm mortar platoon. Ranger battalions have no battalion level mortars. The old M113 APC mech companies (which may still exist in a handful of NG units) had 3 81mm M125 SP mortars instead of the lighter 60mm mortar. All Bradley equipped mech infantry battalions and tank battalions have a 120mm mortar platoon with the M106A2 mortar carrier. Stryker equipped cavalry troops (RSTA) have an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. The Stryker infantry company has an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. In addition there are two 60mm mortars carried in the M1129 for dismounted use.

Adrian



So it appears the Army "infantry" type units have a couple 60's at company level and the older light mech (113's) a trio of 81's. The heavy mech (Bradley) have zip at company level and a platoon (4 as I recall) of 120's at battalion.
The Stryker, much like the Ranger units, are an odd bird with their own unique TO&E so I'm sorta ignoreing them as "non standard" units.

You mentioned that the old 113 mech companies may still exist in a few NG units . . . are all the active duty Army mech units Bradley's then?

Excuse the ignorance but I know far more about Warsaw Pact TO&E then the US Army's *chuckles*

[Marcello]

I was thinking to do something along these lines.

A leg infantry rifle company composed by:
1) Rifle squad in slot 1
2) Mortar squad (six guys with two 60mm mortars ) in slot 2
3) Three rifle platoons with four rifle squads and a MMG section each

A motorized rifle company.
Same organization as the above but with softskin (trucks,pickups, unarmored HMMWV etc) transport.

Mechanized company (two versions, one mounted on tracked APCs and the other on wheels)
1) Rifle squad in slot 1
2) Two APCs in slots 2 and 3
3) Three rifle platoons composed by three rifle squads, one MMG section and four APCs each.

No organic mortars but a separate mortar platoon composed by three APCs towing/carrying 81/120mm mortar.

Good/Bad, thoughts?

[Suhiir]

I may well be wrong, since as I said US Army TO&E is not something I know very well (and I'm too lazy to look it up). But I believe Army INFANTRY squads are generally larger then their MECH infantry ones.

They seem to tailor their mech squads to the capacity of the APC/IFV. It's 11 men for M113 units and 6 for Bradley ones.

[SGTGunn]

All active duty army heavy mechanized infantry (as opposed to "medium" Stryker equipped) units use the M2 Bradley IFV - and the vast majority (if not all) of NG ones as well. The last active duty mech infantry unit to use M113 was at FT. Carson I believe, and switched over to the Bradley around 1995. A lot of mech NG units were converted to light infantry units rather than switch to the Bradley. Post 1995 the active army only used M113s as a squad carrier for mech combat engineer units. They were also used heavily in mech, armor and artillery units as ambulances, logistical vehicles, maintenance vehicles, etc. For example, when I was stationed with A/2-63 AR in Germany in the late 90's we had 3 M113A3's in our company - 1 for the 1st SGT, 1 for the mechanics, and 1 for the medics. Since the start of the Iraq War it became obvious that the up-armored hmmwvs and unarmored trucks were inadequate as tactical transport vehicles in high threat areas. M113s were scrounged up, and many more brought out of mothballs, refurbished and given appliqué or slat armor and given to units that normally lacked any kind of armored vehicles. Because a M113 can carry 11 dismounts, it adapts easily for use by light, airborne and air assault units and their 9-man squads. The M113 is really a great vehicle, and with some easily available upgrades such as appliqué armor, composite ramps, band tracks and remote weapon stations you get a vehicle that is IMHO superior to the Stryker in most ways, and A LOT cheaper to boot.

Adrian

[SGTGunn]

Army infantry squad strengths:

Light, Air Assault, Airborne, & Ranger - 9 men
M113 Mech Infantry "old style" - 9 dismounts + 2 crew
M113 Mech Infatry "new style" - 7 dismounts + 2 crew

Current M2 Bradley Mech Infantry Platoon - 4 BFV and three 9-man dismount squads. The 3 squads are split between 4 vehicles.

A current Bradley Squad:

1 Squad Leader (M16/M4)
2 Team Leaders (M16/M4)
2 Automatic Rifleman (M249 SAW)
2 Grenadiers (M16/M4 + M203)
2 Rifleman/Designated Marksman (M16 or M14)

Also each squad has an M240B and a Javelin which the two rifleman are trained to employ when necessary.

A Stryker Mech Infantry Platoon - has four Strykers, 3 9-man dismount squads and a 7-man weapon squad. 1 Squad per vehicle.

Stryker squad:

1 Squad Leader (M16/M4)
2 Team Leaders (M16/M4)
2 Automatic Rifleman (M249 SAW)
2 Grenadiers (M16/M4 + M203)
1 Designated Marksman (M16 or M14)
1 Anti-Tank Specialist (Javelin and M4)

Stryker Weapon Squad:

1 Squad Leader (M16/M4)
2 Machine Gunners (M240B and M9)
2 Assistant Gunners (M16/M4)
2 Ammo Bearers (M16/M4)

Adrian

[Suhiir]

Good info SGTGunn, thanks !
At least now I know (if not "understand") the Army TO *chuckles*.

[SGTGunn]

US Army Mech TO&E is based on the principle of "not enough men and too much equipment". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Of course it can be argued that us light guys are also cursed with "too much equipment" - I get that feeling every time I put on my rucksack.

Adrian

[Suhiir]

Being a Jarhead we of course follow the "Too many men, not enough equipment" school.