OT: Politics

[RamsHead]

Since there is some political discussion in another thread that has nothing to do with politics, I thought I would make a place where people could talk politics without going off topic in other threads.

[Cor]

Perhaps that is not such a good idea. Tends to end up with a fight.

[Teraswaerto]

What "another thread"?

[RamsHead]

Cor: Hopefully that will not happen.

Teraswaerto: The Encouragement thread.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually, there is a Shrapnel General forum for such things. It would be nice if people moved around abit on the Shrapnel site

[RamsHead]

Well, I think I remember Dominions 2 having such a thread, so I didn't think it would be that big a problem.

[atul]

Dominions2 forum had such a thread, but it was locked and deleted. Some highlights included one then-active poster telling me I would be better off six feet under and other hilarities. So we might want to steer away from politics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: the conversation in the other thread, I got the impression it was just some people from the states throwing jokes about themselves and their countrymen, then other people from US misunderstanding the jokes to be slander and taking (sort of) offense. But YMMV.

[RamsHead]

If people don't want to post in here, they don't have to. This is just a thread for those who happen to want to talk about politics. If people start throwing around personal insults, then Shrapnel has every right to lock/delete this thread.

[Morkilus]

The Dominions forum (the only place I look) tends to have many more Europeans than the rest of the boards. I remember talking politics in the GD forum, usually about guns and 9/11, but only the Americans were chipping in.

[Foodstamp]

Gun control and the 911 terrorist attacks are an American issue, I am not surprised Americans were the ones chipping in.

Politic arguments spiral downward pretty fast. This is because neither side is totally right or wrong, and both sides value the love of their party, form of government etc. over the truth or statistics.

Rather than prescribe to a political party, or preach the merits of a particular type of government, I find it is best to look inward, know what you feel to be right or wrong and let that be your guide as far as what is good or bad legislation. Sometimes it can be difficult, because it can be hard to identify who is pulling the strings, but anytime a politician opens their mouth, just question to yourself what their true motives probably are. Doing so, you can figure out what is really going on most the time.

There is an art to taking the lies that come out of one side's mouth, and the lies that come out of the other, then using those two lies to identify the truth.

[CUnknown]

Something I wanted to mention in that other thread, so I'll do it here. I long for the USA to return to something approaching isolationism. Far from being America's problem, I think that ending our non-stop wars across the planet would be a solution to what ails us. And for what ails the rest of the world, for that matter.

[UncleYee]

More traditional hardcore wargamers tend to be wonderful people but knee-jerk conservatives. I wonder if fantasy hardcore wargamers are a more liberal-leaning bunch. What do you think?

If we are, why? Tolkien, who if I understand it denied that his writings had an overt political leanings, none the less painted a very simple black and white world. Though it had a much warmer heart, in a way LotR presents choices as simply as that 300 movie; war is the the choice of the valiant, talk of peace comes from traitors and fools. This is a very right-wing way to evaluate the world, and is still the message coming from our US President.

So maybe there's some other hidden liberal influence. What are Gary Gygax's politics like?

Or am I off-base, and fantasy wargamers are indeed as conservative as traditional wargamers? Then I'm just spinning my wheels.

[quantum_mechani]

I don't know about in general fantasy war gamers, but I'd say the dominions community is more than a little left-leaning from an american perspective. Largely, I would guess, because such a large percntage (even an majority?) are European.

There is also the fact that the Dominions setting tends to weed out the hardcore Christians.

[tromper]

I still can't tell whether I'm a Green or a Socialist, and am from the US. So I'm an independent. Labels are so droll.

But arguing politics in this forum is really just the sign of people waiting on new posts to read or an MP game to finish another turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Kind of heartening, if sad, in a way.

Dominions does indeed give weed to hardcore Christians, quantum_mechanic, after all, there's no other way to get them to play. Lucky bums.

[CUnknown]

I agree about traditional hardcore wargamers being conservative, in general. Also that fantasy gamers are more middle of the road, at least. I'm not sure where that comes from exactly, but I don't think it's Gary Gygax, although he could be liberal, for all I know. I've never recognized any political message in Gygaxs' works one way or the other. Not that it's not there, just that I haven't seen it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Historically there are many examples of invading people for their own good, and how well that works. When will we learn the "prime directive"?

In the other thread I was hoping someone would call me to bear for my american comments and "many of our critisizers are americans with a long list of qualifications for being able to critisize". Im a politican magnet. Im a native US citizen, registered, graduate, a home owner, a family man, vietnam vet and retired military.

But as far as politices, Im a member of the "toggle switch" party. I made that up. I dont think either of them are right enough to be in power for too long so I recommend switching them out on a regular basis to minimize damage.

Gandalf Parker

[johnarryn]

Umber Hulks are clearly thinly-disguised representations of Dick Cheney. Clear as day. Gygax is obviously part of an anti-Bush conspiracy.

[MaxWilson]

Gygax may not have been big on politics, but a sure sign of a Gygax reader is an encyclopedaic knowledge of polearms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Max

[Evil Dave]

Gandalf Parker said:
Historically there are many examples of invading people for their own good, and how well that works.


Yeah, the French never quite forgave us for invading during the '40s. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

Gandalf Parker said:
Historically there are many examples of invading people for their own good, and how well that works. When will we learn the "prime directive"?

In the other thread I was hoping someone would call me to bear for my american comments and "many of our critisizers are americans with a long list of qualifications for being able to critisize". Im a politican magnet. Im a native US citizen, registered, graduate, a home owner, a family man, vietnam vet and retired military.

But as far as politices, Im a member of the "toggle switch" party. I made that up. I dont think either of them are right enough to be in power for too long so I recommend switching them out on a regular basis to minimize damage.

Gandalf Parker



I think you were trying to bait me in that other thread. The reason I did not respond was pretty simple. I have found over the years that people who criticize or hate this country would criticize or hate this country if it was 72 degrees outside and pineapples and sugar were the major industries.

You either like the United States or you don't. If our country changed to accommodate the desires of the vocal, those people would still find reasons to hate our country, I base this on the fact they always have no matter who has been in office nor which party the president belonged to.

To give you an example. I listened to 8 years of Clinton bashing from my family when he was president. He was the Antichrist to hear them talk about it. When Bush took office, he became the new Antichrist and Clinton became JFK and his term became Camelot.

I am a strong believer in my country. I don't prescribe to a political party because I think doing so is throwing in your lot so to speak, abandoning your own political ideas and supporting the ideas of that party instead.

Liberals will whine from birth until they are on their death beds no matter how good life has been to them. Conservatives will never show tolerance or agree to compromise in any form.

Turn off your television and start thinking for yourself. Or you will end up whiny or narrow minded the rest of your life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Ballbarian]

Please don't bring a topic like this here. Take it to a higher level general forum. I come here to socialize and get away from "politics". I definitely have an opinion as does everyone on this board, but I would much rather enjoy everyone's company and keep the arguments to slightly more on topic disagreements. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RamsHead]

You neither have to post in this thread nor even read it if you do not want to.

[Jazzepi]

I really do think this thread doesn't belong here.

Jazzepi

[RamsHead]

Despite everyone's concern, it appears there will not be any major back and forth here. The more that people post in this thread about disliking the thread, the longer it will remain on the first page of threads.

[Teraswaerto]

UncleYee said:
If we are, why? Tolkien, who if I understand it denied that his writings had an overt political leanings, none the less painted a very simple black and white world. Though it had a much warmer heart, in a way LotR presents choices as simply as that 300 movie; war is the the choice of the valiant, talk of peace comes from traitors and fools. This is a very right-wing way to evaluate the world, and is still the message coming from our US President.



In Middle-earth Sauron is evil and the orcs are evil. When there are wars or killing between the free peoples (such as the civil war in Gondor, elven kinslayings during the First Age) those who want peace are not traitors or fools.

There are no orcs in the real world, and no Dark Lord. Some people may behave in bad ways, but they are still human. The same is true in Tolkien's writings, the men serving the Dark Lord (be it Sauron or Morgoth) have been coerced or deceived, the struggle is in part to free them from the darkness.

[Dedas]

The biggest burden is on the shoulders of every man; to throw down the ring of war into one's own fire where it once was created, not to use its power. As it is bound to corrupt and consume even the strongest mind, leading it on a path unintended; the killing of one's brother and ultimately the destruction of oneself.

[Arralen]

Well said.

[Gandalf Parker]

I agree. Nicely put.

[Beorne]

I think I contributed to this nice thread saying "US is a weird place" ... I'm not against US, but you have a strange set of values from european eyes. Only strange, that is like contradicting. We in Italy are very contradicting too, but in a different way. So you appear me very strange. Some examples? I dont want to be thrown off 'cause starting a flame war, and my english grasp is not enough good to argue in an abstract way.

[RamsHead]

When you are American, everyone is strange, especially your own countrymen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

I like that this kind of thread is showing up. Yes, the thought of politics mixing with our fantasy escape can be a bit depressing, but it's also a good sign that we're evolving as a community, not just in relation to the game, but in relation to ourselves.

Yes it does belong here, and I hope it stays. I'll contribute what I can to keep it a civil conversation with aspirations of enlightenment, but truly, this is an example of free speech and free will. Please try to understand that such things are in real danger in the times we live in (as they always have been).

Free speech isn't a right, it's a privelage, it's one of the benefits of 500 years of bloodshed and sacrifice, and the will and strength found in the weakest, poorest, most prosecuted of people to both stand against the entire world, and change the world. Good people, people you would have liked, died for it, in droves. It's really, *really* important, and it should be protected and held sacred as a big part of what makes life worth living.

The public domain of the world will never be exactly the way you or I want it to be, and that's beautiful. If you don't like it, have the willpower to either change the channel or change your mind. Freedom comes with those kinds of choices and the responsibility to make them.

The trade-off is that, here in the U.S. you have as good a chance as anywhere in the world of living your private life exactly the way you want to.

[TwoBits]

What's the point of starting up something like this? Seems it's just gonna make folks angry for no good reason.

I mean, we've all got cultural differences, but I doubt a political thread in a game forum is the best way to understand them.

Heck, we're all strange, each in our own special way. Arguing about Iraq or global warming here ain't going to accomplish much but cause bad feelings.

I know, I don't need to post here, or read what's posted here. But maybe that should go for everybody. Viva la differance, or whatever it is the French say (those darn dirty Frogs - crap, see what happens when you start a political thread?).

[Foodstamp]

Free Speech ends when you agree to post on this message board. I would not be surprised if this thread is deleted/locked, or the 2 other OT threads that were started in an attempt to get this one thrown out.

Jazzepi has already shown that if this thread is not taken care of, he intends to spam the forum with random threads pushing game related threads down the list. I would not be sorry if all 3 get locked even though I love hearing other people's opinions on politics.

[Jazzepi]

Foodstamp said:
Free Speech ends when you agree to post on this message board. I would not be surprised if this thread is deleted/locked, or the 2 other OT threads that were started in an attempt to get this one thrown out.

Jazzepi has already shown that if this thread is not taken care of, he intends to spam the forum with random threads pushing game related threads down the list. I would not be sorry if all 3 get locked even though I love hearing other people's opinions on politics.



I'm just making an effective point. Though I do enjoy cooking and YouTube vids.

Jazzepi

[Foodstamp]

I know what your doing, and I understand your point. My point is that sometimes even when we are right, we don't always have to prove to someone that we are right. I enjoy youtube and cooking too btw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The difference between this thread and your threads is that this one branched off an OT discussion in an on topic thread. None of your threads did that. I think if you would have left well enough alone, this off topic thread probably would have been allowed to run it's course, but instead you have forced your point on to the other forum users, so I would expect that all three will get locked, instead of you just ignoring this one and everyone going about their business.

[Gandalf Parker]

An occassional OT thread might slip thru but basically this is a Dominions3 forum, and the OTs should be in the Shrapnel General forum. The overall impression of the forum when new people come in is important.

[RamsHead]

I find it amusing that the majority of discussion in this thread has been about how horrible this thread will be. Off topic on an off topic thread. I love it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi, why you have so such hatred for this thread to go and make some point is beyond me. You are merely giving this thread more attention.

As was stated in my first post, I set this thread up so that people would not clutter up other ones with political talk. Setting it up in the general forum would be pointless, would it not? I am willing to bet that quite a few Dominions players rarely visit it.

All that being said, I hope this thread is locked. People are talking about the thread but not talking about politics, which was the purpose of the thread, and those who dislike the thread can not seem to ignore it and hope it goes away.

Oh and this will be my last post in this thread. Carry on.

[BigDisAwesome]

HAI GUYZ I HERD SUM CRAZY STUFF IS GOIN ON IN HERE

[Beorne]

I don't understand, it's an ot thread and then? SEIV forum is full of ot thread, whre there is a community even the ot are normal. I really don't think how someone could be hurted by an ot politics thread.
Oh, I have just seen the ot thread spamming ... bah ... childish.

[Jazzepi]

RamsHead said:
Jazzepi, why you have so such hatred for this thread to go and make some point is beyond me. You are merely giving this thread more attention.




I do not hate the thread. I do not think it belongs here though.

Jazzepi

[Archonsod]

UncleYee said:
If we are, why? Tolkien, who if I understand it denied that his writings had an overt political leanings, none the less painted a very simple black and white world.



Oh, I doubt Tolkien has anything to do with it. Over here he is probably the epitome of Right Wing. Much as he may have denied it, there are several political themes in his work (such as the scouring of the shire in ROTK - written at a time when socialist/soviet rebellion was a very real danger).
As for his black & white viewpoint, I've seen that been put down to Catholicism (he's less subtle than CS Lewis, but the basic moral structure is similar).

I can see why Fantasy gamers would be considered more liberal (at least in the US) than the conservative traditional wargamers though. The whole magic and gods thing is probably a main contributary factor - the church has problems with such things, which means the more conservative Christians (over here most conservative Americans are usually seen as being Christian too, though I don't know if that's a stereotype or accurate) would likely also have an issue with such things.

Mind you, having said that I do know people who simply alter the basis of magic and similar in their games. I know of one Christian group who replaced the D&D magic system with one based on their faith (i.e. spells became 'miracles' or angelic gifts).

[DrPraetorious]

Well, okay, what effect does/should politics have on dominions 3?

Disclaimer: I am wasted. Like, european grade wasted, because I didn't have to drive home (I live in NYC.) FREEBIRD! In may parts of this country, you can't get this drunk without being arrested. Why? Because this is a blue state and we love freedom.

So, we ask - what effect did politics have on medieval wars? Especially medieval *religious* wars? How can we work political effects into the game without a major engine rewrite?

Disclaimer: One time in Austin, I got really wasted and puked, not on, but *near* a cop. He got some splatter, that's my point. But he was pretty cool, I was with this girl (can't remember her name was, it was cinco de mayo but she wasn't really mexican, guatamalan or something), anyway, the cop was cool, much cooler than NYDP would have been, he was all like "fine, take him home if that's what you want to do" to the girl. Austin is a pretty blue town, but definitely a red state, so perhaps I'm bigoted.

Anyhoo, politics had *huge* impact on religious wars, especially in europe. The 30 years war wasn't really a religious war, it was a political war that used religion as a proxy.

So, especially in the late era, when religion becomes something more than just a proxy for tribal affiliation, it's reasonable to have a large number of political units - inquisitors and stealth preachers, particularly, but also deacons and even outright komisars. The major european LA powers (Marignon and Ulm) already have such units, but there's more to it than that. Any suggestions about how to handle this game-mechanically?

[Teraswaerto]

Archonsod said:

UncleYee said:
If we are, why? Tolkien, who if I understand it denied that his writings had an overt political leanings, none the less painted a very simple black and white world.



Oh, I doubt Tolkien has anything to do with it. Over here he is probably the epitome of Right Wing. Much as he may have denied it, there are several political themes in his work (such as the scouring of the shire in ROTK - written at a time when socialist/soviet rebellion was a very real danger).
As for his black & white viewpoint, I've seen that been put down to Catholicism (he's less subtle than CS Lewis, but the basic moral structure is similar).




You are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Also, less subtle than C.S. "Aslan is Jesus!!!" Lewis?

[Archonsod]

Meant to say "more subtle". I blame Eurovision http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Aslan was a big lion who talked.

Some people see Jesus' face in potato chips. Now I realize that it was C.S. Lewis's point that Aslan was supposed to be Jesus, but maybe the potato chip company is really religious too.

It's all in how you interpret these things.

[HoneyBadger]

Do we have to get in to religion in the politics thread?

[Gandalf Parker]

I would have said "in most countries, yes".
But lately its been the US also so... yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[SlipperyJim]

Archonsod said:
I can see why Fantasy gamers would be considered more liberal (at least in the US) than the conservative traditional wargamers though. The whole magic and gods thing is probably a main contributary factor - the church has problems with such things, which means the more conservative Christians (over here most conservative Americans are usually seen as being Christian too, though I don't know if that's a stereotype or accurate) would likely also have an issue with such things.



Just FYI: I am a conservative, Bible-believing Christian who happens to love Dominions 3. No, pretending to be a demigod in a computer game does not bother me, nor do I believe that it offends God. God is easily smart enough to tell the difference between reality and fiction. For similar reasons, I am also a Harry Potter fan....

Now back to your irregularly-scheduled OT thread!

[MaxWilson]

SlipperyJim,

Fair enough--I'm Christian as well--but looking at the history of D&D it's still a valid observation that the, uh, more fundamentalist (evangelical?) Christians are less likely to be a fan of simulating pagan religious warfare. And fundamentalism is a form of conservatism, so IMHO Archonsod's point is valid.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that the MegaGame might show us that game of politics is going to become a major factor in Dominions 3.

[SlipperyJim]

MaxWilson said:
Fair enough--I'm Christian as well--but looking at the history of D&D it's still a valid observation that the, uh, more fundamentalist (evangelical?) Christians are less likely to be a fan of simulating pagan religious warfare. And fundamentalism is a form of conservatism, so IMHO Archonsod's point is valid.



Yeah, I know. Just like their concern over Harry Potter, a number of my brothers and sisters in the faith would probably get their knickers in a twist over playing Dominions 3. What can I say? I believe they are wrong. I also believe that such folks are distinctly in the minority, even among us crazy Jesus freaks. For example, we have discussed Harry Potter in my home Bible-study group, and none of us are worried about it. In fact, a few of us are even fans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

D&D and other RPGs are in a different category for me, but it's not really about the occult. See, I grew up playing a lot of RPGs: D&D, GURPS, Shadowrun, Earthdawn (yay, horrors!), Call of Cthulhu, Torg, and many more. I was also a frequent player on several MUDs, which were the pre-Everquest version of MMORPGs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I spent an obscene amount of time, money, and effort on make-believe. Then I had an "Aha!" moment. What if I could devote even a fraction of that time, money, and effort to something or someone real?

RPGs are a great form of escape. But as soon as the escape takes priority over the real world, something is horribly wrong....

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive always said that the matrix movie had a very flawed basis for the story. The machines force us into a virtual world? If they perfect jacked-in technology then I think a too large portion of the populace will voluntarily take to their beds with more and more machines being force to take care of them.

Gandalf Parker
Hurry up with the Matrix.
I want to be playing Dominions 10 in the nursing home.

[llamabeast]

Argh, the main problem with the Matrix storyline to my mind is the "we need you for your bio-energy" idea. This is bizarre on two levels:

1) Obviously you can't get out more energy than you put in. Just burn their food in a power station.
2) Even if bio-energy was somehow the way forward, why not use, for instance, cows? Or raccoons? Same bio-energy presumably, less chance of rebellion.

They should have said they needed something from humans that only humans could provide - for instance, perhaps the machines need to harness the processing power of our brains? That would make much more sense.

I often think that if only the film makers would pay me (or any other vaguely intelligent person) a tenner to look over their scripts before they started making them, films could be a hell of a lot better. There are so many glaring, stupid plot holes in so many films that could so easily be fixed. How can people put so many hours and so much money into making something that doesn't make sense, when that problem could be rectified by asking your mate in the pub if he had a more sensible idea?

[Archonsod]

The way hollywood's going these days, paying those same cows or racoons to write the scripts would produce marginally better results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[HoneyBadger]

You know, until recently, they *did* used to say that we only used 10% of our brains.

[llamabeast]

Well exactly.

Film script writers probably use less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TwoBits]

Obviously, someone has never faced a full-blown raccoon rebellion. It ain't pretty...

[Evil Dave]

llamabeast said:
Film script writers probably use less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I think it was Harlan Ellison who gave an example of "creativity" in Hollywood: A producer races into the office of a studio executive. "Chief! I've got a great idea for a movie: let's make The Wiz, white!"

(If you don't get it: The Wiz is a version of The Wizard of Oz with an all-black cast.)

[Saxon]

Tolkien should be looked at in a different light that right vs. left. He is an early environmentalist arguing with industrialism. He grew up in rural South Africa and later moved to a heavily industrialized England. From the rolling and wild plains of Orange Free State to the heart of the industrial world.

This is reflecting in his work and taken a step farther in the movies. Industrial orc hatched in factories, cutting the trees and inspiring the attack of the Ents. Noble Shirefolk getting their peaceful rural ways upset by men. The age of magic elves passing and dirty men with their mechanical and mundane ways coming.

Interestingly, there are lots of parallels to early green movements in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s and, if we really want to talk politics, how those ideals and followers got pulled in and cooped by the Nazi movement. Up to today, the Greens in Germany have to be very careful about what images they use, as many of the traditional Green symbols were cooped by the Nazis. This is both for political and legal reasons, and I am sure many have you have seen various forum rules about Nazi imagery. Ideas of the Volk, connection to the earth and organic farming were all mixed together at the time.

I do rush to point out that the Greens in Germany have worked very hard to distance themselves from this past and I am in no way suggesting they hold those ideals today. The Red Green coalition in Germany is a very long way from the past.

In any case, looking at Tolkien developing his ideals in the pre war world, where the Greens were still young, but present, may give a different and, I would suggest, deeper view of his political thought.

[Gandalf Parker]

Thats interesting. I had always heard that the series was bedtime stories for his kids that just kept getting more and more elaborate as they grew older. And that trying to read hidden meanings into it was like looking for real world connotations in Dr Seuss.

[Morkilus]

Gandalf Parker said:
And that trying to read hidden meanings into it was like looking for real world connotations in Dr Seuss.



Yeah, The Lorax and the Horton books were completely just silly little books. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saxon]

Tolkein also created entire functional languages for the books, he was a professional linguist and took it all pretty seriously. As for Dr. Suess, with a new child in my life, I am getting to have a second look at them. Kids books yes, but with moral messages in them.

[thejeff]

The Hobbit was a bedtime story for his kids that wound up tying itself into the mythology he'd been working on for years.
The mythology grew, at least partly, as background for the languages he invented, being primarily a linguist.

I wouldn't say hidden messages, he despised allegory and such things, but that doesn't mean there isn't meaning behind the surface. The Lord of the Rings is deeply informed by his Catholic faith, without being overtly religious, a trick not that often pulled off.

Even more so in the Silmarillion mythology. For example, the origin of the orcs is left unclear because he kept debating with himself whether they had free will and were thus redeemable.

[Saxon]

Yes, Tolkien was through and through a Catholic and it shows in his work, but you have to look for it. Earlier, C.S. Lewis was mentioned and his blatant "Aslan is Christ." Lewis was a much heavier handed writer, but both tackled the same themes. They met at Oxford in the 20's and had regular drinking and discussion sessions through the 40's. A number of other authors took part in this and drafts of The Lord of the Rings, The Screwtape Letters and so forth were first discussed in the sessions. It is clear that the group were first and formost christians exploring the intellectual side of their faith, particularly through writing.

Anyone who is interesting in some academic readings on Tolkien, with a focus on the christian side, should check out "Tolkien, A Celebration." I think it falls short in examining his Green side, but it does cover a lot of other territory well.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ahhh ruin it for me.
Not that it was a big subject for my anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saxon]

Gandalf,

What are you doing out of bed? I just realized that post about Dr. Suess must have been around 5 in the morning?

Stay well,

Saxon

[llamabeast]

I went to the pub the other day where Tolkien and C. S. Lewis and the others used to meet.

I had a very unpleasant pie.

[HoneyBadger]

Nothing worse than a bad pie.

[Saxon]

Bad pie with no beer to wash the taste away would be worse...

[Gandalf Parker]

Wasnt that pub where they met before they got famous?
No reason to think that it would be a good one.

[mac5732]

Hey Saxon, what are you doing posting here, I thought you were on your honeymoon????/ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Guess who's leading the Republican presidential race according to AP polls?

Then look at this youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrhesnvgLs