Epic Heroes Mod MA game(finished)

[Xietor]

I am hosting a MA game with the Epic Heroes Mod, Black Tome blessing fix, and the Worthy Heroes Mod on Llamabeast's Automated PBEM server. The purpose of this game is to test the Epic Heroes Mod for balance in a mp setting.

We will be using Battlemap, which has 250 provinces, 18 of which are sea. There will be a total of 12 players, with a max. of 2 water races. Each race will start with at least 4 provinces adjacent to their capital.

There are real mountains on the map, so you can build mountain castles. There is no waste. "Many Magic sites" are coded to provinces that have a volcano or the stone henge graphic.

The map has 12 set starting spots for the capitals. Llamabeast(who is not playing) will generate random starting positions for the 12 races.

The Players are:

1. Zoshan-Atlantis
2. Dr. P-Tien chi
3. Xietor-Shinuyama
4. Dragonninjaakira-Ctis
5. LoloMo-Agartha
6. Gameextremeist-Arcos.
7. jutetrea -Mictlan
8. Foodstamp-Vanheim
9. Horst F. Jens-Man
10 Sieger-R'lyeh(water races now closed).
11.Tuidjy -Pythium
12.Sir_Dr_D-Machaka


The most recent version of Epic Heroes Mod(1.4) can be downloaded here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?e99ud3xxhng


The map we will be using is here and it is called Battlemap.
I have used it in other mp games and it was favorably received.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3od1mm5ybdz

Turin just came out with Worthy Heroes 1.7, the link is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?8wyds1tqlgg

Dr. P's Black Tome is here

http://www.mediafire.com/?emonmx1jxjw

[Zoshan]

I will join your game. umm I like large maps and games most the other stuff dont matter to me.

[llamabeast]

The server will be able to handle as many players as you want Xietor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[DrPraetorious]

I'll play, as long as CB isn't used.

I'm agnostic about the old age mod, but would like to use the blessing hotfix.

[Xietor]

Blessing hot fix is fine, and i think it only applies to Ermor MA.

[jutetrea]

I want in.

old age is cool
vote for blessing hotfix
Not a big fan of CB, although 1.1 looks promising (haven't tried playing with it yet.
Emphatic yes for Epic/Worthy

I'd also like to propose random nations, I'm still relatively new with few nations I'm comfortable with but I think a random epic will give you as much feedback. From more of a blank slate perspective. On the other hand, If i'm experienced with the nation I'll be able to determine the difference/balance that much better. Not a ringing endorsement for random, but it might be more interesting!

Something to look at, but may change pretender strategy greatly is recuperating gods. All gods start with recuperation, means the gods already starting with recuperation are a bit overpriced. In terms of playability it prevents a lot of heartache though. Possibly too much to add, but wanted to throw it out there.

In the same vein, the mythology mod adds some cool spells and new pretenders with everything seeming balanced except the Pantokrator (havent tried new repriced version, older was a steal)

Dr. Have you made a mod for your Marveni/other nation spell effects? Haven't tried it yet, but followed it a bit and looked interesting.

Another weak suggestion if starting with a big map, 2-3 starting provinces, high magic sites (personal pref), renaming on, ambiguous on indy power.

I like mods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

My tentative thoughts:

1. I do not want to go wild with the mods, because I am trying to test Epic Heroes for balance. If we have too many mods, and Machaka cleans house, we will not know if it is because of the Immortal Assassin or some other mod.

2. For that reason, it may be better to not use the cb mod.

3. If we do use reduced old age mod, Machaka will have no old age issues and an immortal assassin!

[LoloMo]

I would like to join! I vote for epic heroes and worthy heroes mods. Neutral on other mods.

[jutetrea]

Pretty much agree, but always like to throw the ideas out in the hopes that someday someone will start a mod crazy game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As much as I dislike the old age mechanic, it does instigate certain actions (GoH, chalice, certain pretenders, etc) which are currently part of the game and factored into strategic balance. (in general higher powered mages are old and problematic, younger are weaker and easier to manage). I'd love to have a no-old age mod in my current mid game.

[GameExtremist]

Count me in, sounds like a lotta fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

The map I think I am going to use is a 250 province map, 232 land 18 sea. And ideally I think we would have 10 land races, and no more than 2 water. This map will not accommodate 3 water races, but is a good map for 1 or 2 water races.

I will get a link to where the map can be downloaded soon, as the map layout may influence what race you want to play.

[Xietor]

Dedas has told me he is in and wants Ulm.

Please get the download of the new version 1.2 and check out the Epic Heroes and start planning on what race you want to play.

I guess if we have 2 people wanting to play the same race, we may have to have Gandalf flip a coin for us. He has agreed to be a neutral person to oversee the map placement phase, to ensure the races are not unevenly dispersed.

While it is not 1st come 1st serve, go ahead and post the race, if you know, that you want to play.

If I limit the game to 12 players, then hopefully everyone will get a race they like.

[DrPraetorious]

Ermor or T'ien Ch'i - I'm easy either way.

[LoloMo]

I've never played Agartha before, so I'll try that.

[GameExtremist]

Arcoscephale for me!

[Zoshan]

I would like to play Atlantis, if they are taken my back ups are Ermor, Abysia, or Pythium. Thanks

[Dedas]

Alrighty then, this will be fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[jutetrea]

tentatively put me down for mictlan, never played em so going to see how i like them via SP.

[Xietor]

I made their Epic Hero tough.

[Foodstamp]

I will try Vanheim. Never played them in MP, might as well see what all the fuss is about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Horst F. JENS]

I will join, if possible with Man. I love the CB/epic heroes combo but have not much experience with it. Have nearly no multiplayer experience anyway, so i look forward to learn some cool tricks :-)

[Tuidjy]

Nevermind. I am afraid that I need to take a better look at the heroes.
Their power varies incredibly... some are much more powerful than others.

[Xietor]

I had to change the mod prior to the game starting because of a slot issue with the Marignon Epic Hero that I did not catch in testing(: (had no head).

Turin had several suggestions for the mod, and he is the author of the Worthy Heroes Mod, which is widely used. And he is well respected in terms of mp/balance issues.

So, in addition to correcting the slot issue with Marignon, a few "tweaks" were also made, and they are listed here.
If that causes anyone to change his selection that is fine.

1.Marignon had its map move increased from 2 to 3, and now has a head slot.

2. Ulm lost its 50 percent poison res.

3. Agartha received a research bonus

4. The Sacred Yeti's (Caelum) stealth has been fixed, and he is correctly labeled as an animal.

5. The Blood-Cursed Champion has a more thematic ranged weapon.

6. Tien Chi's hero lost his armor/weapons, and his magical skills were SLIGHTLY lowered. /hide.

[llamabeast]

Okay, if you want you can now start uploading your pretenders.

To create a PBEM pretender: Go to Game Tools, then Create a Pretender God (just doing it by Create a New Game doesn't work).

Then find your pretender file - it'll be in the directory dominions3\savedgames\newlords, and have a name like mid_machaka_0.2h.

Finally, e-mail it to pretenders[ at ]llamaserver[ dot ]net (obviously changing [ at ] to @ and so on). Crucially, the subject line of your e-mail MUST be 'EpicHeroes'.

You can see who's joined so far by looking at the website, www.llamaserver.net (http://www.llamaserver.net).

Let me know if you have any questions or problems with it.

[llamabeast]

Oh by the way, if you want to change your pretender once you've uploaded it, you can just send it in again.

[Sieger]

I'd like to get in as R'lyeh or Jotunheim, I don't have a strong preference either way.

[Xietor]

Make sure you download Epic Heroes Mod 1.3! It is linked, as well as the map, at the bottom of the 1st post. I originally had version 1.2, which is not what we will be using.

[Xietor]

We need 2 more players(ideally). If you know anyone to invite, feel free. If we do not get new players today, we will start with 2 random ai players set on mighty.

I was waiting to take a race no one else wanted. And I do not have a strong preference anyway.

Just in case it influences anyone's decision, it looks like most are neutral on the reduced old age mod. To keep things simple with a new mod already, let's NOT use reduced old age this game.


If that changes what race you want to play, you can change.
Tomorrow, we will start loading pretenders and hopefully everyone is comfortable with their picks.

[Horst F. JENS]

maybe i miss a major point here, but in the zip-file linked at the first post, there is only a Battlemap.rgb file in it. I do not find the map if i want to play a testgame, is there a special way to install this map or do we get the .map file at the start of the game ?

[Dragonninjaakira]

I'll join as C'tis if that's alright.

[Xietor]

Excellent choice Dradon.!

Ctis got much love in the form of its Epic Hero, and it has a very unique summon that appears in a strong dominion.

I had some trouble due to the map size hosting the complete map file. But, I now have a site that can host it.
So if you want to play the map before the game here is the link to the complete file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?dindvev2xbn


The starting positions are fixed on this map. So if you have the complete map files, you can test out the various starting spots.

[Tuidjy]

Ok, I'll give good OLD Pythium a try. So, where I can find the rest of the mods?
I assume the black tome fixes C'tis not being able to bless its undead, but what
does the Worthy Heroes do?

[Xietor]

Correct. The hot fix allows undead sacreds to be blessed, worthy heroes beefs up the heroes that randomly appear at your gate.

I will add links to worthy heroes and blessing fix to the 1st
post.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I will join as Machaka.

[sum1lost]

I pmed for a machaka slot already, but you're welcome to have it if you like. I'm not exactly experienced at this.

[Xietor]

I did not receive the pm(: And darrel was the 1st to post on the thread. But if you want in the game sum1, please keep track of the thread as 1 person may not get their pretender uploaded before the deadline, and if that occurs, you will get their spot, but you would not be stuck with their race selection.

[Xietor]

We now have 12 people.

All of the required downloads are linked in the 1st post.

1. Battlemap
2. Epic Heroes Mod 1.3
3. Worthy Heroes Mod 1.7
4. Black Tome hotfix

Please make sure you have the Battlemap file downloaded in your map file. You just need the rga file version for this game. If you want to play a game yourself with the map, you need the full version which is posted later in the thread.

The 3 mods need to be extracted to your mod folder. Please do a sample game and make sure all 3 mods are working. Some need to be removed from the yellow mod folder so that the dm file is exposed.

You then need to create a pretender according to the instructions llamabeast provided, and email him the file with the title EpicHeroes as the subject line of your email.

[Foodstamp]

Pretender Uploaded. Goodluck everyone.

[Horst F. JENS]

Uploaded Pretender for Man. Was it correct to set a password for the Pretender ?

[Xietor]

You do not need a pw for the pretender. The turn for your race will be emailed to your address alone.

[Dragonninjaakira]

<font color="green"> </font> Pretender uploaded. Good luck and may the mods be in my favor ^.^

[llamabeast]

It does no harm to set a password either, though. You'll just have to type it in a lot of times.

[Xietor]

The server does not show that Man has uploaded his pretender.
You may want to talk to Llamabeast, or describe what message you got back.

[llamabeast]

Horst - I e-mailed you about your pretender, don't know if you've checked your e-mail.

Anyway, your e-mail was of a type I hadn't seen before, so it didn't work. I've fixed the server now though, so if you send it again it should be fine.

[llamabeast]

I sent you another e-mail Horst. I've got your pretender fine, but it'd be good if you could use a different e-mail account, because it turns out the current one's still confusing the server and I won't have a chance to fix it till next week. Sorry about that.

Please let me know the e-mail address for your alternative account. Thanks!

[Dedas]

I will send my pretender first thing tomorrow.

Stupid me I forgot that I already got my pretender ready for this game. I will send it right away.

[GameExtremist]

I'm starting to think llamaserver is angry at me...wouldn't take my turn yesterday now it doesn't seem to be acknowledging my pretender file - Arcoscepahle

I've sent it twice to the above mentioned address with the subject heading EpicHeroes.

*shrugs*

[llamabeast]

Hmm, maybe the e-mail server I use is being a bit erratic. The e-mails aren't getting through to the llamaserver at all (it would always reply if they were). All I can suggest is to try again a bit later, and also copy me in on the e-mail so I can always sort it out manually if necessary.

[Xietor]

Game settings:

Because you are starting out with an epic hero, ind. level will be 6(typically it is 5). So you have this early warning that it is not prudent to attack on the 1st turn blindly.

You have been warned. Except for the stronger independents, default settings will apply, except renaming will be allowed,
and hall of fame will be 15.

[Xietor]

Ok,

We can start soon if we can get Arcos and Rlyeh pretenders accepted. I have never had any issues with llamaserver.

Have you run spybot recently? Maybe your machine has too much adware/spyware on it?

[llamabeast]

I've set the llamaserver to use Horst's gmail account, so that's all sorted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[llamabeast]

Okay guys, I can confirm that there definitely is a problem with some e-mails not getting through to the LlamaServer, apparently at random. This is really unfortunate timing - it's never happened before, and also I'm on holiday this weekend so can't spend much time following it up (or my girlfriend may stop speaking to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

So anyway, really sorry for any difficulties in sending pretenders in, and hopefully it'll be back to smooth running soon!

[Xietor]

No problem Llama.

We can wait until your holiday is over!

[llamabeast]

Well I've briefly spoken to the e-mail service providers, and they say the machine was a bit busy doing a huge backup over the weekend, which might possibly explain its dodgy behaviour. Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, Arcos and R'lyeh should try sending their pretenders in again, and see if it works. I've also made it so that the llamaserver addresses automatically forward the e-mails to me as well, so that I can fix things manually if need be.

Sorry for the chaos guys!

[Lily]

Aargh, the website is intermittently down too! I've worked out that it's the people who I bought www.llamaserver.net (http://www.llamaserver.net) off who are screwing up, which is why both the website is going wrong and some e-mails not arriving. I guess they're having problems and there's no-one to fix them because of the bank holiday weekend (um, that's a public holiday, don't know if you have bank holidays elsewhere).

So sorry guys, it seems to be a cursed weekend. I'll make sure order is swiftly restored when I get back (Monday night/Tuesday morning).

[Xietor]

Well the game has started!

Good luck everyone!

[Dragonninjaakira]

Ok...total noob question but...how exactly do I play PBEM? This is my first one. Sorry guys...

[LoloMo]

You create a folder named "EpicHeroes" inside your savedgames folder. Then you download the file that was emailed to you into that directory. Then you fire up dominions, and use play existing game, you should have an entry named EpicHeroes. You do your turn normally, and press endturn. Close dominions, and look into the epicheroes folder again, and there should be mid_*.2h file in there. Email that file back to llamaserver.

It takes a long time to explain but is actually quite easy.

[Xietor]

You do not mail it back to his pretenders address, but the turn address.

Once you do a turn or 2 you will see that this method of play is easier than most.

By the way, WHO STOLE MY STARTING SPOTS ON THE FAR WEST SIDE!

Jeezum, after setting up the map you would think the least i would get is a decent starting spot near a border(: I think Llama "fixed" it so i got the worst starting spot on the map.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Thanks Llama for hosting this game, and putting all that work into the server. But I am curious as to why you just done host as IP host game. Isn't that easier.

This Epic hero thing sounds like fun. I first I wasn't excited about it, because starting off with a set hero (as apposed to a random one) sounded boring. But then once I started setting up my pretender things got fun. You actually end up desigbing your entire pretender around your epic hero. By the way, I thought at first that the Machaka Immortal Assasin was overpowered, until I took at the Mictlan Jaguar Warrior spawning hero. Now my assasin is scared and is hiding under a rock somewhere.

[Xietor]

One of the complaints many had about Machaka MA was they were tough late, but vulnerable early. The assassin is pretty good insurance against an early attack in your own dominion.

Mictlan's Epic hero is overpowered by design, because they are a terrible race. Did you notice even with an overpowered epic hero no one played them?

[Xietor]

Horst,

We all got a message on the 1st turn that Man has cheated. Do you have any explanation as to why this occurred?

[Foodstamp]

It is worth noting that the message said that his God has been reduced in power. Is it possible Man created his pretender with a mod on accident? Maybe the Conceptional Balance mod?

[Horst F. JENS]

Yes, exactly, i forgot to turn off the Comceptual Balance Mod.
Sorry for messing this up, i was thinking tat conceptual balance mod is in the game (it was discussed in the first posts) and i forgot to read exactly before game start. I set my god to AI control.
As i took good scales and few magic i hope the AI will play him not too bad.

My god was a designed as an Lord of War with E5, after the cheating message he was transformed into Master of Magic (red wizard on white horse) with no magic skill at all but old age problems instead.

Please consider me sloppy/stupid instead of a cheater.

[Foodstamp]

If it is possible, why don't we restart the game and let Horst upload a new pretender? We are only on turn 1. It would be a shame for him to miss out on this game because of a simple mistake.

[Xietor]

Man sent me a PM informing me that he went AI.

[llamabeast]

We can restart the game very easily. It might be an idea to do that, it seems a shame to lose Horst. Unfortunate side effect: players will have to resubmit their pretenders. I've just upgraded my backup system so that in future you wouldn't have to do that. Boy this is a learning experience.

Xietor - let me know if you want to restart or carry on.

[llamabeast]

Darrel: There's quite a few advantages to having the LlamaServer PBEM in fact. At least, these are why I decided to have a go at designing it. Obviously there are advantages to network games as well, though.

- It has essentially unlimited capacity. This hasn't come into play yet, but it will be able to have tens of games running on it.
- It's possible to arrange it so that the games can be controlled via the website. No more running home to postpone hosting on the server.
- Other people can be set as admins for games on the website. Xietor can now postpone turns etc without me getting involved (see the admin options on the website). This will be great when there are more games running.
- It's more robust and reliable (*cough cough*). Okay, it should be. It can't crash and so on. Version upgrades should be much cleaner.

Unfortunately this weekend hasn't done a very good job of demonstrating the last point. The fact that everything went pear-shaped on the same weekend as a new game started, and I was away on holiday was quite unfortunate. Sorry again guys for the mayhem.

[llamabeast]

Now, about the unreliability issue: It definitely seems to be because of the domain-name-registering people. I'm hoping it's fixed now, and won't happen again - it's never happened before. But please please do let me know if one of your turns ever fails to get through again. If that happens then I think I will have to change company, because it's quite crucial that its reliable.

Hopefully the website will come back up tomorrow. Today was a public holiday in the UK so I guess they haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.

[llamabeast]

Horst, would you not consider playing with your dud archmage? There's no reason to set yourself AI/restart the game if you can bear losing your Lord of War.

I'm going for the most-consecutive-posts prize. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Horst F. JENS]

You won the prize.
Thank you for the nice words everyone, i felt very stupid after reading the cheat message.

I sent the turn again by email, this time letting my old age no-magic wizard under human control.

[Xietor]

Oh

I did not realize the game gave you a new pretender(:

I thought it would just adjust the one you had.


We can do a restart, unless someone has an objection. And you can pm me privately if you do not want a restart.


If even 1 person objects, we will not be able to restart, since players with far west starting spots have a chance to lose those.

[Sieger]

I have no objection a restart, we've just started in any case. I can understand some people may not want to lose their current starting positions, though.

[Dragonninjaakira]

I don't mind a restart even though I am far west.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I think we should restart. It won't be as much fun defeating Man this way.

[LoloMo]

I have no objections either way.

[llamabeast]

Okay, I've now completely changed the setup for the llamaserver to entirely bypass the stupid company (123-reg.co.uk, in case anyone's interested). Apparently this will take 1-3 days to come fully into effect, but once that's done we'll hopefully be back to full reliability. Of course we might well be back to full reliability already, if they've fixed their problems - there's no way of knowing.

[Xietor]

let's go ahead and restart. It will let people have a rare 2nd chance to reflect on their choice of pretenders.

I see from the hall of fame the good dr. attacked blindly with his overpowered epic hero on the 1st turn! And that with the indies on 6. Perhaps we can should raise them to 7?

Keep that up my good Dr. and you will prove Turin correct!

[llamabeast]

Done! Everyone should resubmit their pretenders ASAP.

Let me know if you want to change the indies.

[DrPraetorious]

That was my dominion-9 wyrm. The epic hero just shot fire flies at people.

If we restart can I move the magic picks on my epic hero around? I know turin thought he was way to powerful but with this set of magic he's exactly incapable of doing anything.

[Dragonninjaakira]

C'tis resubmitted.

[Tuidjy]

I am not sure I have my pretender on this PC. I may have to wait until later today
before I can resubmit. A shame, really, as I loved my starting position.

[Xietor]

yes,

Anyone can change pretenders or even races.

This is a free reroll!

However, if you change races, the 1st to post on this thread gets the new race.

So if 2 people want to switch to Ermor, the 1st to post here wins. You cannot switch to a water race, as the map will accomadate only 2 water races.

[Xietor]

For anyone not following the thread-we are starting over to allow Man a chance at redemption. Please resubmit your pretenders if you have not.

[Foodstamp]

I am having issues uploading my pretender. Can someone PM me the correct email address? Thanks.

[Xietor]

foodstamp got his information.

[Foodstamp]

And you got your money. We are square.

[Xietor]

I just played a bit with Machaka on the map, and the immortal assassin is pretty fun. It would not be a real smart idea to send your sc pretender romping through machaka's dominion early in the game.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Ssshhh. Don't warn them.


(and yes, that Assassin is fun.)

[Xietor]

It looks like we are waiting for(drum roll):

Man-you should be the first to turn your pretender in! 30 lashes with a wet noodle!

Arcos-I hope you are not mad over losing a spot on the west wall.

Agartha-Second thoughts on the race? It starts slow, but has great summons.

[Horst F. JENS]

just to make this clear:
i turn off ALL mods when designing the pretender ?

[LoloMo]

oops sorry for the delay! I've sent my pretender already.

Horst, you need the EpicHeroes Mod, the WorthyHeroes 1.7 mod, and the Bless Hotfix mod turned on.

Be sure other mods like the CB mod are off.

[GameExtremist]

Okay, I'll resubmit pretender soonish...just got in from work.

Any doubts about llamaserver should be quashed, I have been playing in the original "Alpaca game" and found the server to be excellent last few days excluded.

[llamabeast]

I'm mortified to discover that llamaserver.net now has popups! Euck! I'm really let down, the company I just started using (zoneedit.com) doesn't mention that anywhere. I tell you, trying to get this sorted has been like wading through internet evil, so many companies appearing to be nice then trying to screw you over. Anyway, I'll get it sorted ASAP, and sorry for the popups.

Hopefully my technical ramblings will cease shortly! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

I caught an error when play testing today. The Epic hero for arcos. has a grand elephant dominion summon, that summons a tough elephant. Despite giving them an elephants hps, they only have a size of 2.

So they do not trample, but they have 2 attacks, and are tough nonetheless. Regardless, we will just have to tough it out this game. Unsure whether this helps or hurts arcos, but it is an error, and the next version will have them as siza 6.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The game hasn't started yet, so there is still time to fix it. Actually as long as the eversion name is the exact same we could upload a new version in the middle of the game, and everything will work. (as long as we all update the mod.)

[DrPraetorious]

If we're fixing stuff, could Li Bo lose the earth magic, 2 of the nature, and get +1 to the rest of his paths?

[Xietor]

if he loses the 2e and 2n, i may give him his wings back, as he could not do rain of stones. let me look at him.

i made a few other changes to descr. of various heroes, and fixed some minor issues, but i have not kept a record of the changes. There have been no major changes though.

[Xietor]

Apparently you cannot fix a mod after the game has started, as it has caused some serious issues with the Alpaca game when Llama tried.

I will see about a hot fix on the server side that only changes the summoned elephants size to 6.

Good news Dr. P! In 1.4 you have your wings back and lost the 2e 2n but gained +1 in the other existing paths(2f 4a etc).

Your hero remains h3 however. your hps were also lowered to 10, a slight tweak to reflect your new air raid capabilities, and your strength was lowered from 14 to 12. in reality it should be 8 as you are a poet!

Your hero is now significantly tougher than abysia's flying immortal, so i am open to ideas how to adjust abysia's hero, or to reasons why tien chi's flying immortal should be greatly superior to abysia's flying immortal.

[DrPraetorious]

You can't change his magic after the game has started - I know that. Otherwise I wasn't aware that changing a mod mid-game caused problems but it wouldn't surprise me!

[Xietor]

We are just going to live with the size 2 elephants. They are a rare dom summon, there will not be many of them, and I am not sure whether the lack of trample is a blessing or curse. likely a blessing to arcos. because the elephants in question get 2 attacks headbutt and trunk.

[lch]

No, changing a mod midgame shouldn't make any trouble unless you break stuff. But you gotta fear those hoburg elephants!

[llamabeast]

Yeah, it should actually be possible to change a mod midgame - the problems in Alpaca were due to some bungling on my part. Still, I think Xietor's plan is to continue using the current version of the mod for the moment.

[Xietor]

well, the elephants have 72 hps. I am at a loss as to why the game mechanic gave them size 2. Shrug.

[Tuidjy]

I finally had a look at all the heroes and summons. I'm sorry to say, I feel
like quiting. I thought we were play testing a mod, but at this time, I think
that the mod was not ready to be playtested.

There is no balance whatsoever.

Some heroes bring very little to the nation. Vanheim's guy, for example, brings
two levels of nature, and not much else. He is never going to be worth much as a
combatant, and his summons will not sway balance. Pythium has an angel.
Crunchy early, common later. All he brings is fire magic. Marignon's hero
does not bring _anything_ to his nation.

Some heroes simply have the power of a pretender. The magic paths of the Tien
Chi hero make him into a rainbow searcher combined with an immortal
supercombatant. He is not as good as the original Vampire Queen in Dom II, but
once a bit or research is done, he is no worse that anything seen since. As for
the Pangaea treant, give me a break. A death helmet, soul vortex, personal
regeneration, and a few earth spells, and he will sneer at anything short of
Petrify.

As for the summons, what were you thinking? Take Ulm, for example. Ultra high
defense, insane protection, and no encumbrance to speak of. A weapon that puts
many construction 4 weapons to shame. A few per turn. Hello?

As for Mictlan? Jaguar warriors in crazy numbers. I pity the guy who ends up
next to him, if Mictlan has a fire blessing.

Overall, there is puzzling lack of consistency. Some heroes get very low
encumbrance, with no justification whatsoever. Some are left with the stats
and slots of the unit that inspired them (Pythium) other get revamped (Arco).
Units that have no reason to have high magic resistance do, artifact level
weapons get assigned to some, other are left with common crap. Creatures that
have traditionally had low defense end up with basic defense 15.

Etc... I will stay and fight, but the mod needs a rebalance for sure.

[jutetrea]

Bit harsh Tuidjy, the game is to test the balance of the mod in relation to the nations not hero to hero.

MA Mictlan sucks, gets an overpowered hero. MA Marignon doesn't suck, and therefore gets a less powerful hero.

When first trying them out I had a lot of the same impressions, but the few I've tried haven't been terrible. I'd say let the playtesting do its job and help balance them.

Suggestions are great, I just see no reason for harsh criticism this early in the process.

[Xietor]

I actually agree with you that the mod needs to be tested. But I disagree that it is not ready for play testing. And I welcome all forms of constructive criticism.

Mictlan's Hero was overpowered on purpose, because their race is awful. Vanheim's and Pythium, 2 of the toughest earlier expanders in mp, were deliberately given heroes that do not aid much in early expansion.

I took existing nation balance into account-not all heroes were created equal. And that was intentional. But I may well need to make many balance adjustments.

Machaka has the immortal assassin. The inspiration for him is MP experience has shown that they are vulnerable to an early rush. It will be very hard to rush Machaka when they have an immortal assassin.

Tien Chi-i did not design this epic hero, and in fact nerfed him a good deal already. I clipped his wings, and removed a bit of his magic, and reduced his h4 to h3.

I strongly disagree with you about vanheim's hero. But I may be proved wrong. While he will never be an sc, he does bring nature magic, spy ability, and he has 2 summons.

The clockworks, while not great, come in great numbers in a strong dominion. And the Watchers? What is not to like about a free lightning bolt caster that has a 50 patrol bonus? Ulm and Man's spies will never be able to instill uprising in vanheim's capital!

Marignon's pretender is able to dominion summon a sacred statue that raises dominion the same as a prophet. The name of the game is dominion, and having a very strong dominion is nothing to sneer at. Also, while the statues cannot fight back, try destroying one and inspect your units that hit one after!

Marignon's Epic hero also has a rare double of awe/fear, 4f, 2astral, 1h, inquisitor, mapmove 3, and good stats. recuperates and no old age issue. While he may not be an sc candidate with 13 hps, he will not need bodyguards either.
Finally,

Marignon's epic hero also raises the dominion of the province in which he dwells the same as a prophet(a new ability that can be modded as of 3.08). Plus he is an inquisitor, make him a prophet and preach and he is unequaled in ability to raise dominion in a province. To say he brings nothing to the table, i think, is wrong.

But I am open to suggestions, and the best place for the suggestions are on the mod forums so other people can add their thoughts.

Turin(author of worthy heroes) reviewed the heroes, and he agreed about tien chi, but was not as pessimistic about the others.

A flying h4 prophet with no old age issues is not bad for Pythium. And she has 49 hps! And can be augmented with a full compliment of items. And the Angel does have a good dose of fire magic as well. The Angel can be a terror by mid game properly outfitted.

Of course Pythium can summon angels later in the game, for a price, but having one on turn 1 is not bad either. She has awe, fire and lightning prot, insane stats. All she lacks is protection, and the fact she has none is intentional. And she has many valuable uses even on turn 1. She was actually 1 of the few heroes turin said was overpowerd.

The treant of pangaea(and i selected Pangaea after others picked-my 1st choice Man was taken) is tough early. But he has issues. He has a defense of zero! zero. he is susceptible to fire, and he has limited slots. If he is a prophet, with a strong bless, he can be a sc out of the gate, but so can a niefel giant, or even a ma jarl.

Try taking a province with the treant solo if he is not the prophet. Many of the epic heroes, with a strong bless pretender and made a prophet, can be an sc out of the gate.

But there really is no way to design a good melee hero that will not be an sc as a prophet and a strong bless. But the drawback of making your epic hero a prophet, is he is limited outside your dominion.

Take Beowulf. He has 27 hps. I would not make him a prophet because he is too valuable a battle commander. As a prophet he could not be used to spearhead an army deep into enemy dominion. Same as the black Duke of Ulm.

The summons of the Black Duke of Ulm are insanely tough. That is a reflection on the weakness of MA Ulm in mp games. With a mr of 9, in a world where the best mp players snag the astral races 1st, Ulm is just helpless late game against races like arcos that have cheap high level astral mages spamming soul slay.

Ulm is given the capability to finsh people off early, because once mid game rolls around, they are really vulnerable to the astral races.

Anyway, these heroes were not just popped up. Much thought went into their design, and many different people that had extensive multi playing experience helped tweak them.

And if you look at some of the worthy heroes, like the hydra commanders of ctis and pythium, i challenge you to say the treant is tougher.

[Tuidjy]

I guess we disagree on basic principles.

For example, I do not think that the way to balance a race that is strong early,
and weak late, is to give them 3-5 thugs per turn since turn 1. The Ulm summons
have no counter at least until turn 15. None. Ninety percent of the nations
have nothing that can touch them. Ultra high defense, insane protection,
respectable attack, ridiculously low encumberance. They group well, they swarm,
they do not tire. They can destroy ten times their number of anything but
knights, as bodyguards they can negate assassins, and they can easily swarm
any supercombatant. Ulm never had a problem expanding early. Now, once they
make contact, all they have to do is send the 15-20 summons towards the enemy.
NOTHING can stop them. You have ruined the game for Ulm's early victims. If
the Ulm player knows what he is doing, his neighbors stand no chance. Only
Mictlan with a fire bless and his doubled jaguar warriors will have a prayer.
Of course, he will be probably raping his own victims. Once again, you have
given a GREAT early expander a boost. Can you please explain to me what
enjoyment an Ulm neighbor will derive from this game, when he is faced with
twenty thugs on turn 6?

The black treant is scary early, but he will be unstoppable late. I guess
you did not understand what I meant. Defense means little when you are swarmed.
You gave him earth (protection, reinvigoration, magic res), death (soul vortex),
and nature (regeneration) With his high HPs, he becomes unkillable. Petrify
may kill him and will freeze him, but the soul vortex and invulnerability will
keep him alive. Oh, I know ways of hurting him, but he is just out of this
world. In Dominions treants DO NOT MOVE except through fairy trod! We have
Conjuration 8 unique summons which PALE compared to your turn 1 superhero.
EDN is just a scary combo.

I do not know Turin. He was not one of the top players in Dominion II when I
considered myself one (I won the first FFA tournament, resigned the solo
final against Norfleet when I became convinced that he had cheated, and had won
five 6+ player games in a row before I quit) I do not understand how he can
consider owerpowered a virtue-wanna-be that becomes obsolete at Conjuration 6,
and which needs support before Construction 4. As for insane stats, may I say
HUH? You gave humans attack 15/defense 17, and you left her at 14/14. You gave
the Arco hero 72 hps (elephant) and left him with human slots. You gave Ulm
summons such that three turns worth can shred her. You gave nearly everyone
else artifact level toys and multiple attacks, and left her with a flambeau.
You gave everyfrickingone magic resistance 16+ (usually 18). Her only strength
are her hps, and they are nothing to write home about.

Once again I will recap my problems with your mod. It is a fun way to add a
lot of flavor to single player, when you want an epic struggle against impossible
AIs. But in multiplayer, you have given two of the best early expanders a
great EARLY boost, and have given at least two nations a second pretender class
toy. Other nations have received thematic heroes that give flavor, but only
enhance existing strengths, for example, Marignon. If Tien Chi has been
toned down, I do not want to know what he used to be. And worst of all, many
heroes/summons have stats and items that make no sense in the world of Dominions.

[Tuidjy]

Ok, because I have nothing to do, I did the following. I started a game
with Ulm, and set the hero to summon. Every two turns, I would send a
smith with two turns worth of the summons out. In ten turns, I have
had 18 battles, AND NOT ONE OF THE FREAKING SUMMONS HAS DIED. In the
eighteenth battle, a smith and his eight thugs ran into a pretender -
Cyclops 9EA6N, and ate him for breakfast.

Screw this. I am asking for a restart.

----

Just because I like beating a dead horse, I took that game to the end.
It was played against 3 impossible AIs, on the Silent seas map. By
turn 24, all the enemy capitals are besieged, and the AIs cannot break
the siege. My masterful strategy has consisted of sending summons
on the straightest road to their capitals. A sample battle result:

Ulm - 1 smith (E+, legions of steel x2, cast), 28 black duke soldiers (3 dead)
Tien Chi - 11 commanders (1 dead), 274 troops (142 dead), 20 magic (20 dead)

The only lost battles were those in which the enemy got to my smith. I never
bothered to position anyone properly. Hell, who needs attention to detail when
one gets 4 thugs and a few knights for free every turn. I am not proud of
beating the AIs. I just wonder what a player could do better by the time the
thugs show up at his door. Oh, by the way, by turn 24, I have 4 castles, 7
temples, all pumping out smiths and Ulm infantries. My pretender was a rainbow
(2-3 everything). My gem income is 31, as she did not start searching until the
Summon Earthpower-&gt;Legions of steel combo was ready.

And please. I do not need to be told that stuff like mind burn can be available
early, or that area spells can hurt Ulm later on. This has alwasy been true.
I am arguing that fighting Ulm's thugs in the very early game is fruitless and
frustrating.

[Xietor]

I share your concern about Ulm. Turin also said the plate armor, without the enc and def negatives were too unbalancing.
Though chain mail of displacement is better, obviously you have to forge that at a gem cost.

In no way do i share your concern about any epic hero that is tough later in the game. you mention soul vortex and other spells for pangaea, a magically impaired research race(and i took 2 drain on top of the expensive research mages).

By the time the Treant has access to spells that make him into something truly feared, other races will be summoning queens ele air, kings fire etc.

Late in the game no sc whose strength is melee should be too much of a concern to a good player. regardless of mr, 3-4 astrologers casting paralyze, soul slay, horror mark will cripple any pretender, even a gorgon with petrification fears astral mages.

My goal with the mod was to provide tough, by worthy heroes standards, epic heroes. I am assuming you are aware of the worthy heroes that can appear at your gate(if you did not take mis 3) and how powerful they are compared to the heroes that come with the base game?

I would prefer not to restart, despite sharing your concerns about Ulm-to a degree. I was actually thinking of leaving their weapons and stats in place, but reducing slightly the summon to 3 per turn, while adding a small def penalty and some enc to the plate.

As pangaea, I do not fear being next to ulm, as those black order soldiers have no shield and i can mass produce longbows. While they hit insanely hard they can be trampled easily as they are only size 2. So races with ap missile weapons or longbows can hurt them with missile weapons, and races with tramplers can trample them. They are not unbeatable.

They go into ctis domain, they get diseased. etc.

In short, what i was likely going to do, based on turin's criticism(which you mirror) in 1.4, was reduce the summons in number to 3, like man's, increase their enc from 2 to 3, and increase the enc of the Duke Black Plate from 0 to 2, and add -2 def.

testing may require more tweaks to ulm(and other races), but that is the purpose of this game. But I had hoped to make the changes, and others, in 1.4. Please go look on my mod thread at the many changes already planned.

I understand you took 3 misfortune, and maybe you did not understand the significance of that choice with these mods, as it denies you some very powerful worthy heroes. And maybe you want to try Mictlan, since you think they are overpowered now(i do not).

In any event, a restart would allow me to introduce 1.4 which helps vanheim's hero tremendously. It would also allow me to change Tien chis pretender the way dr p wants it changed (and it is his design, so i am being as lenient as possible here).

I am not willing to nerf ulm, before i have matched his black order soldiers against a live opponent, more than outlined. If that is unacceptable to you, then i understand.

But since there appears to be a strong consensus that Ulm is overpowered, most particularly the black order solider,
I am willing to reduce the summons from 4 to 3, increase their enc by 3(1 to their stats, 2 to their armor), and lower their defense by 2.

Again, I had hoped to implement 1.4 AFTER a game has been played, so it might encompass stuff unforeseen by any of us,
but the fact is some of Vanheim's stuff really should be in this game, and it is hard to test Dr. P's hero if it is going to change radically anyway.

So as much as i would hate to restart again, are there any objections? I will implement the changes to Ulm, as well as the changes that can be viewed in the epic hero thread in the mod forum.

Ctis also gets some combat boosts and an extra slot, but loses assassinate/spy ability, and the croaker's melee ability is reduced a bit.

Probably the hero that receives the biggest boost in 1.4 will be shinuyama. I will scrap the treant's extra misc slot that i was going to give him and ctis since their is concern that treant is not killable late game-something i disagree with, but am willing to test.

If we do restart, anyone can chose a new race/pretender. If we restart, we will not do it again.

I had received a complaint about the angel not having "angel magic" from someone in this game not playing pythium, so despite my personal misgivings about boosting an already overpowered race(in my opinion), i will give Pythium's angel back her air magic, and we will see how it goes. With smite, fire, and air magic, and an army of hydras, surely pythium can find some way to defend itself from hostile neighbors.

[Xietor]

I will have 1.4 available for download shortly.

I am extremely sorry, we will have to restart again. And I thank everyone for their patience. But 1.4 contains many changes and tweaks, just a couple that are raised in this thread.

Since the purpose/goal of this game is to test for balance, i decided to make the change. I have already made all the changes, but i am going through each hero and his summons to make sure there are no mistakes.

I will not be playing pangaea upon reroll. After hearing, rightly or wrongly, that its hero is overpowered, and since 1.4 adds 100 percent pr and a 3rd misc slot, i did not want anyone to think i was taking an overpowered race.

Everyone is welcome to keep their original races. Vanheim and Ctis should be pleased with 1.4. Arcos. summoned elephants are now size 6, and their attack was lowered, but arcos is really not affected much, since they trample anyway.

Ulm gets a nerf. there is no way to sugar coat that. They only get 3 insanely tough guys instead of 4, and they have a tad more enc and 2 less defense.

But they are still the cream of the crop, even with the slight adjustment to their enc/def. It is the loss of the extra summoned troop that has the most effect.

Black phoenix has 3 misc slots now, and received 1 more fire(4).

Marignon got some armor.

Caelum had his makemonster increased to 2(winter wolves), but lost his stealth ability, and his yeti slam lost its aoe fear effect. Big nerf there on yeti, but the aoe fear attack stacked with his high natural fear was overpowered.

Tien chi got the changes the dr. asked for, but i decided not add back wings yet.

Man, agartha, machaka and the water races were completely unchanged.

[Xietor]

Everyone will need to download version 1.4 before we restart the game:

http://www.mediafire.com/?e99ud3xxhng

You can just delete the old version before you download the new. As before, you are free to change races/pretenders.

But the people have dibs on the races they already have obviously. And in the case of a change to a new race, the 1st person to post on this thread gets the new race.

I will have to talk to Llamabeast about setting up the game again. Let me know if there are any issues with the download-or your race with version 1.4.

By all means take a long look at your race before making any decisions. You cannot resend your pretenders until llama gets version 1.4 onto his server and gives the green light.

[Dragonninjaakira]

I'd like to stick with C'tis.

[Tuidjy]

The nerf to Ulm's soldiers may or not be enough. What bothers me is that you are
creating free summons that are comparable to Conj4 thugs equipped with Const4
items. I had devised a strategy for dealing with them, and yes, it did involve
poisoning them. It would have been a pointless endeavor though, because when
you are spending money on special purpose units to fight free summons, you are
losing the game.

I did not choose misfortune 3 because I was unaware of the consequences. I
thought I made that clear earlier.

Oh and for Pangaea's treant, you still do not get it. You keep talking about
a melee SC or defense. Once someone is capable of Soul Vortex, paralizis does
not matter. In one of my latest games, I was insanely lucky to roll a EDB
tartarian naga. The B is worthless, by the way. I gave her a charcoal shield,
an S cap, ring of regeneration and a ring of tamed lightning. She took on an
army of 20 astral/air mages and 400 assorted bowmen, but she managed to get
invulnerability and soul vortex off before she was paralized. After that, it was
all over. The chafe died easy, the (cross)bow guys ran out of arrows, got into
hand to hand, got broiled/drained and routed. But that was on turn 64 with a
VERY lucky magic roll. All Pangaea needs is Alt/Const 6... and once again, you
have created a creature that is grossly more powerful than unique conj 8 summons,
and which does not have the restrictions traditionally associated with treants.

As for making Pythium angel's 3a3f3h, yes, that would make her quite powerful.
Not powerful enough to deal with 18 free thugs on turn 8-9 though. I am tempted
to actually run your thugs against other nations' troops and see the results. If
I get 30 minutes, I will do it.

And you should call your Heroes mod a balance mod, so that people know what they
are getting into. You have admitted that you originally shafted Pythium and
Vanheim because you believed they were overpowered, and that you gave Ulm the
insane summons because you think it is underpowered. And hey, I agree about
Ulm and Vanheim, and may agree about Pythium after I try them in Dom III.
Not that I agree with the way you solved the issue, but it is your mod.

Still you need to tell people that. I expect most people to assume that heroes
are in similar power categories. This is absolutely not the case.

[Xietor]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but if you read the mod forum under Epic heroes, it makes that fact crystal clear in the very first post.

I understand that it is a huge thread though, and i am not faulting anyone for not taking an hour to read the whole thing. But I do state the mod's intent early on.

While I have done very well in my multiplayer games, I know that better players than me exist-and maybe you are one of them. I certainly invite you to play overpowered pangaea, and show us why it is overpowered if you like playing that race.

I will wait until everyone else has selected a race, and maybe even play one of the "underpowered" ones like marignon or Pythium. But now that doubt has been cast on Pangaea, i will not be playing that race.

[Xietor]

I would be interested to see 18 of ulms fight 18 of mans summons if you get the opportunity.

Also, I do appreciate the input, it is only through challenge, discourse, and argument that the mod can be improved.

If everyone is politely silent, nothing will get changed. This upcoming game will be fun. Play any race that you think you will enjoy. There are some capable players in this game, as well as some newer players.

I designed all the heroes so that no race should be susceptible to a bum rush by Ulm or anyone else-if the players are equal in ability.

Out of curiousity, if the treant is so overpowered, why could the same result not be achieved with a titan pretender taking the same magic, and having all the slots to equip(treant has no hands, body, or feet).

[Tuidjy]

Oh, it is very much achievable :-) I do not remember the last time that I
played a pretender that did not have Water, Death and Nature and at least
one of Air or Earth :-) The problem is that it cost tons in scales. When
you receive the monster SC for free, you are allowed to get better scales
and let the pretender sleep a bit.

As for Man's summons, they are quite tough. But they are perfectly plausible
lore-wise. They have human stats, and well crafted equipment. Ulm's soldiers
have the stats of thugs and about 35 gems worth of equipment each.

---------

Results of testing. Ten times Ulm attacks, Man defends, no PD, Man gets to fire
twice before the squads are engaged. The commanders are on HOLDx5, stay behind.

10 battles, 10 victories for Ulm.
In six cases, no casualties for Ulm, full casualties for Man.
In two cases, no casualties for Ulm, three Man survivors.
In one case, one casualty for Ulm (lucky shot), no Man survivors.
In one case, Man got a lucky militia event. No casualties for Ulm, 59 dead Men.

The results speak for themselves. This was before the nerf. I'll test it
with v1.4 in a second...

---------------

With v1.4

casualties
4x 20 / 0
4x 20 / 1
1x 20 / 2
1x 19 / 1

What can I say? These guys have divine attack/defense/encumbrance.
Don't you think that you may want to nerf them a bit more, and buff the hero?

[Xietor]

Appreciate the feedback once again. I did actually expect Ulm would win, but I did expect Man to fare a tad better. Of course in a real showdown, even early, between Ulm and Man, Man would be bolstered by lighting casting mages, and Ulm by flying shards. Man would also have longbows, and i think they could dent even 21 protection.

And Beowulf is no slouch himself, though even your Treant likely would likely not survive 10 of Ulm's Black Order Soldiers. And to be quite frank, most prudent players would not risk an sc against Ulm's Black Order Soldiers unless their back was against the wall.

But I have done what i can for now, with respect to Ulm and other nations. If Ulm swallows the world in our game, then you will be proved correct. While i have yet to pick a race,
it is my belief that i can slow those babies down somehow!

[Xietor]

Please confirm that you are using the same race and pretender, or that you are going to send in a new pretender(no rush).

I just want to make sure everyone is on board with the restart.

If you are using the same race and pretender, you need do nothing except post that fact so llama can use your pretender he has on file.

My goal is to have the restart Monday Morning(earlier if everyone gets their confirmation or new picks sent in).

If you have a new pretender, you can mail it in. Llama emailed me to let me know he is aware of the restart and has reset the game.

[LoloMo]

I'll be using the same pretender as Agartha!

[Tuidjy]

v1.4
Man: 40 summons, 62 longbowmen.
Ulm: 20 summons.
All commanders were supposed to stay out of the fight, but I had forgotten
Beowulf had an armour negating longbow and I needed him to lead the army.

Ulm wins with 9 casualties. Five of these courtesy of Beowulf's longbow.

[jutetrea]

Well, that's pretty brutal. If you've got a good test bed, can you try against F9W9 blessed Vans? or E9N9 blessed giants?

Brutal results, but its still unit to unit. If they handily defeat dual blessed troops then a change is needed. Yes its free points, but that's almost the point of the exercise... MA Ulm kind of sucks - maybe the extra points are needed, maybe they need a free "blessed" unit. If 20 dual blessed vans demolish 20 ulm summons, I still don't see a problem. Hell, if they're even I still don't see a problem. On the other hand, if the vans get demolished, it needs a change. I'd probably say 1:1 vans 2:1 giants 1:3 jags.

Do you have a specific test bed set up, or just using a basic map editor?

[jutetrea]

Ok, 10 F9W9 Vans go down with few losses to the ulm summons..repeatedly. I'll check with giants/jags later.

Triple blessed jags (FWS) go down much too easy, in large #'s as well

dual blessed jotuns (EN) go down way too easy.

So, here's what I'd do (still noobish on stats)

Glass cannon
Drop HP down to 5
Give them old age
Drop magic on weapon
Go the retired veterans route

Lazy/untrained
Drop attack to 10
Raise enc to 4-6
Drop magic on weapon
(Tried this with Mict trip blessed. Attack made a huge huge difference, fatigue - not so much, they lost 20v20 twice, which makes sense against a trip bless/dual life unit)
go the clockwork route, or levies given a limited supply of magical armor

Weak/untrained
Drop attack to 12
Raise enc to 8
Drop magic on the weapon
go with weak levies with limited supply

General Nerf
Drop attack to 12
Drop Basic Def to 8
Drop HP to 10-12
Raise enc to 4-6
Drop magic on weapon

Protection - even with atk 15 flaming jags these guys were getting hit for 1's and 2's with the occasional higher. Same with Vans, and the jot's could barely do any damage.

HP - with the high prot and low damage they were taking they stood up forever

Def - with the high prot this is almost like having a luck charm... 18 def, a bit too high

Magic weps - not very pertinent in the early expansion, but very valuable against mid-late game. I'd either drop it or work the description around it. Starting with magic wep troops is big. Description says greatsword, wep says halberd.

As it is, groups of 10 of these can expand easier than Van at a much cheaper cost. They would make mincemeat of most bless rushes. I still think they should be very powerful, but more = to a good dual blessed chassis. Then the extra points could be used for better scales then a bless nation or more magic/SC. They are limited to 3/turn now which is more limited then a bless nation, so maybe 2 soldiers should = 3 dual bless units (Vans in my mind).

Just my opinion, but keep em uber - just knock em down a notch.

[Xietor]

There is going to be no more nerfing before the game starts.

The problem with these tests is that it does not take into account that human opponents will supplement their troops with battle mages that cast lighting, fireball etc.

And Ulm cannot effectively supplement their troops in battle. Because Smiths are generally not good battle mages early on. Also, Ulm is limited to 3 Black Order Soldiers per turn, and that means the Black Duke is not out searching for death magic sites, forging items, or leading in battle. There is a price to pay to have the Black Duke sitting there producing 3 troops a turn, however tough.

I saw 20 Black order Soldiers dispose of Bogus and his heroes with few or no losses. I know they are tough. But most human opponents will take advantage of their weaknesses. Something the Ai may not be smart enough to do.

And they do have weaknesses. But I am grateful for the analysis, as that is extremely useful and much appreciated.
And it was because of that analysis that they are being produced at 3 rather than 4 per turn, and are easier to hit, move slower, and get tired more readily.

[Zoshan]

Im still going to play. I will still be playing Atlantis.

[DrPraetorious]

Once more into the breach, for England and Saint James!

I still want to try my poet (T'ien Ch'i).

[LoloMo]

And I'm still going to try using my Obsidian Statue, even though he seems quite malnourished compared to everyone else... hint hint ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Xietor]

Endoperez designed the Obsidian medium. I helped on his descr and added a research bonus of 5, but i would not tinker with him without endoperez' permission.

He loves his hero though, and if you feel he is squishy, he would be the one to speak to. He is very cautious about overpowering heroes, so i doubt he will add anything to the hero for agartha.

[Xietor]

I think I am going to try Abysia. The Black Phoenix is one of my favorites Heroes. But, believe it or not, it is a race i have never played. Most of my dom II battles were against a good friend of mine that always played Abysia or Ermor, and I was not permitted to play "his" races.

I have no clue what pretender i will use. i am sort of experimenting now.

[Dragonninjaakira]

Uploaded new pretender for C'tis.

[Tuidjy]

I see that Pythium is taken. Has someone claimed them, or is it my
old pretender loaded? I entered this game because I wanted to try
Pythium in Dominions III while able to downplay a potential loss :-)

I would not mind trying something else if someone wants Pythium.
I am about to run two more tests with Ulm. If the results turn
as I expect, you'll see me propose alliance to Ulm on turn 1...

----------------------

Oh, and to maintain my reputation as a argumentative bastard:

&gt; Because Smiths are generally not good battle mages early on.

When expansion is conducted with the starting troops and the free
thugs, and a starting SC pretender is not needed, Ulm can concentrate
on rapid infrastructure development. With Conj 3 and Const 3,
smiths are able to cast legions of steel, which makes many of
their troops nigh invulnerable to physical damage.

&gt; Also, Ulm is limited to 3 Black Order Soldiers per turn,

Three free thugs which I would value at 10 gems a piece as troops,
and 25 gems a piece as commanders. If that's limited...

&gt; and that means the Black Duke is not out searching for death magic
&gt; sites,

The black duke has no business going out to search for sites.
Once Dark knowledge is researched (because of Summon Earthpower)
Ulm should trade for death gems, and spellsearch for death sites in
the likely provinces. With the expected rapid rate of expension,
they should have provinces where the scales indicate a death site.

&gt; forging items

That comes later.

&gt; or leading in battle.

Risking him in battle is insane. He should stay inside a patrolled
castle, with five thugs as bodyguards. He should be producing thugs
every turn he's not searching, forging or empowering.

[Xietor]

you have dibs on pythium.

That pretender you see is your own! If you are keeping the same pretender, you need do nothing. If you want to change, just resend and it should send you a message telling you it will use your most recent one.

[Dedas]

I understand that you want us to test your mod Xietor, and I appreciate that you give us the opportunity. But obviously it isn't ready for multiplayer beta testing just yet.
So my thought is that maybe we should just play a standard game on your excellent map for a while. In the meantime you and others who are willing can do some tests on your mod in SP. Else we are just gonna keep restarting the game all the time. What do you say?

[Xietor]

This will be our last restart. I understand your frustration dedas, especially as you are playing ulm. If you can live with Ulm getting 3 rather than 4 Black Order Soldiers, I actually would like to see Ulm in the game.

[Dedas]

It is okay. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can actually live with having no black order soldiers at all. In my opinion they just make the early game too easy and unchallenging. They may be cool and all that when playing SP... but in MP, nah. Nice work anyhow.

[lch]

jutetrea said:
If 20 dual blessed vans demolish 20 ulm summons, I still don't see a problem. Hell, if they're even I still don't see a problem.


20 dual blessed Helhirdings cost 20*75 = 1500 gold (don't know the numbers for Vans by heart) and thus 100 gold upkeep per turn aswell. Plus their recruitment is limited by dominion level. Do the free Ulm summons even take any upkeep?

I agree with Tuidjy, whenever you introduce something to the game you can't think "oh, those are pretty nice units, users would like to play with these", but "how bad is the chance for abuse if a user exploits this to the fullest?"
Looks like an Ulm player could just keep a low profile for a couple of turns and then bulldoze over anybody with a horde of free summons. That hardly sounds like fun.

[llamabeast]

Okay, the game is indeed waiting for pretenders again, and I've removed Ulm and Pangaea.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Hi. Darrel here. I changed my user name to a nickname I had developed on msn messenger. I will be using this one now.(that is if more then one Dr is allowed on this forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

I will be sticking with my current Machaka pretender.( And so everyone is warned, the Immortal Assasin does have a long distance decay attack, which can be deadly to SC's)

Xieter I appreciate what you have done with the epic heroes. They are fun. But I do have some comments.

1) In creating them you should be concerned about making them fun, rather then using them to balance the game. It would be more fun for me if each nation had their hero equal in relative power, rather then some being strong and some being weak. That makes playing a nation with a weak epic boring, and having an epic that can easily clobber everything isn't fun either. And if people want to balance the game they can play with CB, or another balance mod, and epic heroes should be used to have fun heroes in the game. The fact that you use Epic heroes for balance means that a person cannot play with both mods togther.

2) I don't like the idea of these Ulm summons either. Lets never mind the balance between Ulm and other nations, this unbalances everything within ulm itself. Every other unit ulm has, now becomes pointless.Those summoned units become what Ulm is, instead of just being an accessory.

3) Just for other ideas. I have no idea if the following can be modded or not, but as an alternative to having Epic heroes summon allies , you can have them very slowly accumulate allies over time like a VQ gets vampires, or have them start off each battle with a set of extra units like Oni get wolves. As is, why would anybody use the Mictlan hero for anything other then summon Jaguars. If instead of this they got 6 or 7 automatic Jaguar warriors each battle, then you can actually use this epic hero to expand (which is much more heroish and fun). This will also balance the Epic Heroes better among themsleves.


P.S. This Immortal Assasin is fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[jutetrea]

2 types of summons - dom summons and summon allies. Quite a few of the epic heros have dom summons (automatic summons which occur in a positive dom area), while fewer have the summon allies version it seems.

I believe Dedas dropped, so I might be joining again as Mict...and I'll definitely be using the hero to expand (at least early). I've played a few games with it and MA Mict is BORING without blood. The hero really spices things up, my problem is that even in SP i keep getting him killed due to overconfidence...usually right around turn 20.

In terms of fun, most MA nations were just as fun as any other dom game and some just weren't. The non-fun/viable nations needed a bit more oomph IMO and the heros provide that. I'm really curious to see how it affects a full game. I fully expect to lose about mid-late game with Mict..but if its fun while before it happens and theres a bit more mid game potential... mission accomplished.

Why can't you use CB and epic heroes together? I'm missing something.

[Xietor]

I love the idea that melee heroes have summons-and that is not going away, but I do think Ulm's(in the next version and not in time for this game) will be balanced for mp purposes).

The black order soldiers do have an upkeep cost btw. And I did not try to "balance" the races through the Epic Heroes Mod. What I did was keep in mind how tough the various races were in designing their Hero-a subtle but important difference i think.

And I tried to give every race a hero that would benefit that race, even if it was not on the field of battle(Vanheim, Marignon).

But getting a mp game going is the best way for me to receive input and make changes. Look at my thread on the forums-i have received tons of input. When people are actually selecting races to play in mp, and looking at their neighbors with an eye to how to fight them, i think they take a very hard look at the mod, something they may not be inclined to do when commenting on it generally or after a sp game.

[DrPraetorious]

It is supposed to be an epic heros mod - if the heroes don't change the course of the game by themselves, they're hardly epic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

That is not to say that I don't think they shouldn't be balanced - but I think the epic heroes should be balanced towards all being excellent, rather than balanced towards all being a slightly-above-average bonus commander.

[Xietor]

Update:

I just tried to send in a pretender for Abysia-and received a message the game is already full. So you may be able to change your pretender if you are playing the same race, but we may have to wait until Llama returns home on Monday to be able to add my abysia pretender and the mictlan pretender in place of Ulm.

Still have yet to hear from Man, Ryleh or Vanheim. I am assuming they are sticking with their present races, but would love to hear from them for confirmation. Vanheim's hero received a lot of love, so at least for him i cannot see the restart as anything but good. Man and Ryleh were unaffected by the 1.4 changes, except having a dangerous neighbor removed.

[Dedas]

So I'm out of this game or what is happening?

[Xietor]

My bad Dedas,

I inferred, perhaps incorrectly, that you did not want to play in the game if the Epic Heroes Mod was being used?

We are still going to go forward with the game, with Epic Heroes 1.4, the Worthy Heroes, and hot bless fix mods.

Did you want to play Ulm as it is in 1.4, or a new race?

[jutetrea]

If Dedas is back no worries, I can wait for the next one.

[Sieger]

I'd like to get the game started to be honest. It can take a long time for a mod to get to the point where most people are happy with it; it is probably just best to discuss balancing the mod over in the mod forum in the long thread on this mod.

This game was advertised as being a fun game to test out a new mod, no one is presenting the mod as completely balanced. I still want to play as R'lyeh, but would like to get the game under way and focus on making changes to the mod in the mod's thread over in the mod forum instead of in the game thread.

[DrPraetorious]

Likewise - I attempted to replace my pretender and got a game-full message.

--TNDP

[Xietor]

While I appreciate feedback on mod balance, let us move any balance issues to this thread:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=516789&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

and preserve this thread for the upcoming game discussion.

[llamabeast]

If anyone's been having difficulties replacing pretenders - hopefully it will work fine now. Sorry, I'm away and keep on only being online briefly, so I'm doing things in a bit of a rush.

Oh - if you're replacing your pretender you need to use the same e-mail address as before otherwise it will tell you someone else has taken the slot.

[llamabeast]

And Xietor, you should be fine to upload Abysia now, as should whoever's playing Ulm.

[Xietor]

Ok,

It accepted my Abysia Pretender.

I had made the map for 12 players, and I am rather busy today sanding and painting. If anyone has some spare time, if they see a viable 13th starting spot on the map let me know.

There is a spot on the far right side, in amongst the water races, but for any race other than Argatha that would be a death sentence from dominion I think.

[Xietor]

Dedas sent me a PM confirming he is not playing, so go ahead and send in your pretender for Mictlan.

[DrPraetorious]

Let's make this the last restart, shall we?

If any of the current generation of heroes is unstoppable, we'll find out shortly.

[llamabeast]

Okay guys. All the pretenders are in. Do we think anyone else is likely to want to replace their pretenders now? Am I good to do the restart whenever I get a chance?

[jutetrea]

If you could wait an hour so I could quickly test my pretender that'd be cool but not necessary http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Sure, there's no rush at all as far as I'm concerned.

[jutetrea]

K, i'm good... MA Mict really isn't that great a nation.. even with an uber hero. I just see a big early increase then..nothing. Even blessed jags don't look that exciting against massed quality troops/summons. Magic is relatively limited, bootstrapping into blood is a pain. I think it'll be great fun for the first 30ish turns, then turn depressing real quick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm already imagining my futile mid-late game defense!

Just kidding, looking forward to it. I rarely (never) play a bless worthy nation so this should be educating.

[Xietor]

I am actually considering a new race as well. Abysia is certainly powerful, but i am just not a blood kind of guy.

[Xietor]

do not feel bad Jut, I think I am going to try Shin. So we may go out early together.

In my alpaca game a decent mp had shin and he did not last long against arcos-coincidentally the same player playing arcos in this game. /cringe

[Xietor]

Is anyone not ready to start? There will be no more restarts.
If something is unbalanced, you will have to use your uber skills to overcome it-or not.

To be quite honest, I have never seen Shin.'s national summons and have no clue if they are good or not. I did observe that with my pretender and starting mages i do not have magic paths to summon some of them anyway. But if I am being denied my 2 favorite races(Man and Pangaea), I might as well play something new.

So into the breach we go.......

If you take misfortune 3 and have bogus siege your castle on turn 2, i am not going to have any sympathy. No more restarts!

[jutetrea]

*knocks on wood*

[llamabeast]

Okay, started! (hopefully)

[Xietor]

Yay! We have started again. Good luck everyone!

[Xietor]

One final note, extensions must be asked for. I will not delay the game because one person forgot to do his turn. But if you ask for a 24 hour extension, as long as it is not done too often, I will oblige you.

If you need more than a 24 hour extension, it will not be granted. In the event you are out of town, etc, I am almost certain Llamabeast or Gandalf would do your turn for a couple of days while you were indisposed.

Apparently(i was just told today by llama), I do have limited control over the game. So I will be the person from which you need to request additional time to do your turn.

Rest assured, my limited control did not include selecting starting positions or seeing anyone's turns. It will take getting used to not having flying scouts(: I miss Pangaea already.

[jutetrea]

argh, I think I missed hosting by 4 minutes!

[Tuidjy]

Quick question: Is there a way to get the server to REsend a
turn to my e-mail address? I incorporated the file on my
home PC, without realizing that I will not go back to it
during the weekend.

[GameExtremist]

Just a heads up that I may not be able to get my turns in on time in the next few days...

We just had like the 50 year storm in Newcastle, Australia.....power was knocked out for 18 hours...It's only just come back...but no guarentees as another big front is about to hit.

Would it be possible to set the turn timer to 48 hrs?

[Xietor]

I changed the host schedule to 48 hours. Having lived through katrina myself in New Orleans, I am sympathetic to Mother Nature. But unlike me during Katrina, you somehow still have internet access. So I am hoping you are in a bit better shape.
Anyway, our thought are with you.

If you are still having troubles on Monday, I will ask that you have LLamabeast do a few turns for you, or someone else you trust. But I know Llamabeast is out of touch on the weekends as he is with his girl.

I will try and get the server to resend a turn to pythium. We are on new ground with me trying to be admin. as i have never fooled with the options.

[Xietor]

According to Llamaserver, I was able to resend a turn to pythium.

The server is still on quickhost, though the timer is 48 hours. I would appreciate everyone doing their turns in 24 if that is possible. On Monday, the timer will be reset to 24.

I am comfortable putting it back on 24 on Monday as Llamabeast most likely can stand in a few turns for Arcos. starting Monday.

[Dragonninjaakira]

Small problem... When I opened my army set up an error message popped up saying that it could not open the Flytrap1.tga file. Help? I really don't want to stale again.

[Xietor]

Ack(:

It is set on 48 hour host, I am not sure why it hosted in 24 hours. But I actually set it to 48 hours for Arcos. I was unaware you had issues.

I have no clue about anything technical. What I will do is shut off force host so it will not do another turn until llama can talk you through the problem.

Sorry(:

[Xietor]

I turned off the force host. We will hold up on turns until llama or someone with technical know how gets you straightened out. It was set on 48 hours, but hosted in 24. So I will need to ask llama about that as well.

Sorry you had a stale turn. Hopefully your neighbors will not take advantage of you!

[LoloMo]

I'm C'tis's neighbor. I took an indy province and bumped right next to your capital. I won't take advantage and will move my troops away.

[Xietor]

Ok I just set up a random game with ctis, and clicked through a bunch of turns and the summoned monster that uses the flytrap tga appeared with no problems.

That is your dom20 summon guy with all the tentacles.

What operating system are you using?

[Xietor]

I think I have discovered the problem!

That sprite was borrowed from Amos, and he uses a capital "f"
in flytrap. Someusers that use linux cannot use mods that have capital letters.

I will have to see how to fix this with llama on monday. I have corrected the problem on my version of 1.4. We may have to have llamabeast correct it on his server's version as well.

And maybe everyone will have to change the files, which takes 1 min, or if they have no idea how, may have to download a new 1,4 version of the mod that uncapitalized the word flytrap in both tga files, then in 2 spots in the mod itself.

A dollar to a doughnut you use linux.

I implore whatever nation(s) that are next to ctis to not take advantage of him. The stale turn was a conflict between
his operating system and the mod-which is not his fault(or mine either).

Beating up on a nation at had an early stale turn should give no one any satisfaction.

[Dragonninjaakira]

I'm using windows but this message has popped up before with a lot of other nations with epic heroes. For example I cannot play a game as Agartha because as soon as it starts it gives me that error only the Argathan epichero file instead of flytrap. Certain nations work fine IE C'tis until this turn. And during my practice games I never got that hero so I also never ran across a problem...

[Xietor]

Endoperez made the Agartha hero. let me check it out. Actually most of the names and all the weapons are capitalized.

We will need the input of Dr. P, or Llama to straighten this out. I have never had any issues with the mod. So if you have windows, i have no idea what is up.

[llamabeast]

Hi guys, just quickly passing by.

Firstly, if you make any changes just involving graphics files and their names, I won't have to change anything on the LlamaServer.

Secondly, you guys are the first guinea pigs for using the admin options on the website. So perhaps things aren't as clear as they might be (when I have done things myself they seem obvious, of course, so it can be hard to be sure how clear they are).
1 - Turning off quickhost doesn't stop the game hosting. Quickhost just means that the game will host when all the turns are in. If you turn quickhost off it will just wait till the 24 (or 48) hours are up, regardless of whether all the turns are in, then host. Perhaps I should add an explanation of this.
2 - At the moment, when you change the hosting interval from 24 to 48 hours, it _doesn't_ change the _next_ hosting time. But subsequent intervals will be 48 hours. I thought this made sense, but I just explained it to my girlfriend and she said it didn't, or at least wasn't at all obvious. Fair point, I think. So I will change that, or at least add an explanation - I'm sorry it lead to someone staling.

Hope that all makes sense. Good luck in sorting out the EpicHeroes graphics issue.

[lch]

Xietor said:
I think I have discovered the problem!

That sprite was borrowed from Amos, and he uses a capital "f"
in flytrap. Someusers that use linux cannot use mods that have capital letters.


That's not true, they can use them just fine. Linux does, however, take care about case, and thus "Flytrap.tga" is not a valid name for "flytrap.tga". All you have to do is to make sure that your file references in the mod are exactly like you named the files.

Then again, I think I remember faintly that Windows automatically uppercases the initial letter and lowercases the rest if you view them in Windows Explorer, since FAT and NTFS is not case-sensitive and it just looks nicer that way or some other bogus reason to put obstacles in your way. So you need to turn off some option in your folder preferences to make Windows Explorer display the real file name, or sth.

[Xietor]

I have discovered a fairly significant bug with Worthy Heroes
1.7 play testing Ctis. The Hydra Hero, I assume erroneously, has a very strong dominion summon of heavy cavalry units.

And by heavy, I mean 5 or more show up a turn. Obviously this will be a big boon in our game to either ctis or pythium if the hydra hero appears. Of course if either of those 2 races took mis3-they do not have to worry about getting the overpowered hydra hero.

So I guess our game is serving not only as a test for Epic Heroes Mod, but the newly released Worthy Heroes 1.7 as well.

[Xietor]

Gandalf has said this concerning the problem with a windows user:

The quirk with windows is that it might have problems with paths that have spaces in it or are longer than 8 characters. In older windows what WinXP handles as "C:\program files\" the olders ones want "C:\progra~1" (6 chracters and a ~x for the numbered occurance of those 6 characters).

Dragon, do you have windows xp? Or an older version?

[lch]

That is not depending on your windows version, but on the file system that you are using. FAT and FAT32 have those abbreviated things as compatibility mode (since you are backwards compatible to MS-DOS 2.0 or something, lawl), NTFS may have the compatibility thing or it may not. Maybe not.

[llamabeast]

Dragon - being as you get similar errors for lots of the units in Epic Heroes, I reckon I know what your problem is. It's nothing to do with the way the files are named (unless you have a very unusual setup, or Windows 98 or something), but I reckon you don't have the Epic Heroes graphics in the right place.

Within your mods folder you should have a folder called 'ehspr' with lots of .tga files in. I suspect you don't. If that's the case, then open the Epic Heroes mod zip again, and make sure you extracted all the files, and put them into the correct folders.

If you do have an 'ehspr' folder, then perhaps some of the files are missing. Check you have 'flytrap.tga' for instance.

If you do have an ehspr folder, and it is in the right place (dominions3\mods\ehspr) and it has all the relevant files in it, then I am a bit stumped. One final thing to check in that case - make sure the Epic Heroes mod file itself ('Epic Heroes.dm' or something like that) is in dominions3\mods, and not in the ehspr folder.

Hope that helps!

[LoloMo]

It may also be in a folder within a folder. The first time I extracted it, I think it made an "ehspr" folder within another "ehspr" folder where all the files are.

[Xietor]

can someone make a screen shot of how the 3 folders should look properly installed?

There are 3 files that have to be drug manually out the yellow folder that is named Epic heroes 1.4. You can just drag them to your desk top if you want, then delete the now empty yellow folder called Epic heroes 1.4.

Then drag the 3 files into your mod folder and you are done!

The only 3 files that should be in your mod folder are:

1. A white dm file called: Epic Heroes Mod
2. A text file called :Epic Heroes Mod-read me(which has nothing to do with how the mod works).
3. A yellow folder named: ehspr

None of these folders should be inside another folder. They should be visible to you as you view your mod directory.

[Xietor]

Llama could be a genius. Quick thinking Llama!

[Tuidjy]

About the heavy cavalry hero... no worries for Pythium. I looked at
my heroes and decided that if I wanted a fair test of Pyhtium in Dom III,
I better go without. :-) So I do have misforture 3.

I am trying to play Pythium as if I did not have a hero UNTIL I start
fighting a player with one. For now, my angel is casting smite and
banishment, and that's it.

[DrPraetorious]

The problem still is not resolved?

[Xietor]

I have sent him pm's and have heard no response. If I have heard nothing by tomorrow, unfortunately I will have to seek a replacement for him. While I am extremely sympathetic to his plight, in the face of silence, I cannot hold up the game for 11 other players.

Though I will note the Rlyeh also seems to be milking this extension for all it is worth. Does it really take 72 hours to determine whether you want to take a water or a land province? just kidding.

[Dragonninjaakira]

Sorry for the delay. I did as Llama suggested and it worked. The problem was the ehspr folder was inside the e.h. 1.4 folder. I sent my turn eight in. Let the games begin...again...

[Horst F. JENS]

I see on the map that some icons have a golden crone. Are those Victory Point provinces ?

[Xietor]

I did not code anything into the map except 12 starting locs,
and the "many magical sites" for the few provinces that had either a volcano on it, or the stone henge things.

I also changed all the waste provinces to either forest, farms, etc. Though the waste symbol remains on the map(i did not know how to remove it) there are in fact no waste provinces on this map.

Other than those changes, I did nothing. Llama may have done something on his end like add victory points if he wanted to use the map for future games, but i did not.

[Xietor]

I am putting the host back on 24 hours. If you cannot do your turn on a 24 hour basis, I ask that you try and find someone you trust to do a few turns for you.

In July i will be out of state for 10 days and llama does not know it yet, but i am counting on him keeping my empire in stable condition while i am gone!

[llamabeast]

I'm sure that won't be a problem Xietor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As for the crowns - nothing to do with me, but Dominions seems to randomly add them to maps. Not sure why (haven't looked into it), but I think they have been in most of the MP games I've been in. They don't get you victory (since you're not playing a VP victory condition), but each one does have a 50% chance of producing a candle each turn for the owner, so they have some value anyway.

Dragon - glad to hear it worked.

[Sieger]

I just sent in my turn file, sorry for the delay (was out of town.)

[lch]

Horst F. JENS said:
I see on the map that some icons have a golden crone. Are those Victory Point provinces ?


Yes. Those pop up even if you don't set VPs as a winning conditions, especially if you start a textmode server. I have not yet found out how to disable it. They do increase your dominion by one, so each one is worth five temples.

[Xietor]

While this is not binding, it is considered common courtesy if you are the last person to do a turn, to wait 5 minutes until the game has processed and sent you a new turn, and send that turn in as well. That way you are not always the last one to delay hosting.

All other things being equal, some players base their decisions on who to go to war with by who is holding up the game. I kid you not.

[Xietor]

Is anyone having an issue doing their turns? I did mine earlier, but the server appears to be down-at least I cannot access it.

[LoloMo]

the status page has been down for me for several hours already. I was able to send in my turn though, and received a confirmation that my turn had been received.

[llamabeast]

Hi guys,

I meant to say, the website's going bananas, and I'm quite frustrated because it's something I can't fix myself, I have to wait for some admin to do it.

Anyway, the website is a completely different computer to the server. If the website goes down the server will carry on regardless. The chances of the server itself going down are much much smaller.

[llamabeast]

I like the joke on the game page Xietor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

Can we go back to 48 hours on this game? I am reaching the typical phase of the game where multiple players team up on me in order to find a gameplay option that is easier than the AI and I will need more time to do my turns.

[Xietor]

I have set the host to 48 hours.

The current turn has been postponed. If you have time to do your turns at a faster pace than 48 hours(and this goes for everyone), please do so.

But it appears war has reared its ugly head on Battlemap, and we understand the need for more time.

[Morkilus]

How's this game going? I'm not playing, but I'm interested. Anybody unhappy with their heroes? Anybody running away with the game with theirs?

[Foodstamp]

I should clarify. My post is mainly in jest. I would rather be the single nation getting teamed up on than being part of a group of nations teaming up on a single nation. It's one of the reason I picked Vanheim this game and have been playing R'lyeh quite a bit lately.

I chose to live by the sword, I have no issue at all dying by it. And I will do it yet again in the next multiplayer game I am in. Eventually, I will find a way to win without depending on massive diplomacy to supplement skill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. For now, I am still teh suq as far as standing alone goes, but next game I will fair better, etcetera etcetera.

[Xietor]

If you look on the Epic Heroes Mod thread(in mod forum), about 2 posts from the bottom are the tweaks coming in 1.5. Generally speaking so far:

Below par Epic Heroes:

1. Atlantis
2. Shinuyama

Regrettably I do not really play these races, and did not realize the injustice i did to them with the 1.4 Epic Heroes. Playing Shinuyama this game(1st time ever) gave me new insight to their lack of punch.

Atlantis Hero is basically just a slightly beefed up starspawn, such as the Rlyeh can buy at all of their castles.

Both of these races' Epic Heroes will be getting significant boosts in 1.5.

Epic Heroes that need a slight tweaking downwards:
1. machaka-will lose fear
2. Vanheim-tinker's hammer will lose its aoe attack effect(but will still have a 2ndary aoe of small area fire).

Epic Hero that is overpowered:
Rlyeh- he most likely is going to lose his life drain.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm not sure about power levels, but Li Bo is presently kinda redundant or boring.

He's rather like an existing hero Lu Ting-Pin (whom I also got) but with +1W, +2A, +1H, awe, magic being, the dominion spread, and he loses flight and the armor slot.

Maybe if he could domsummon the demon of the heavenly rivers (dom/10 would be plenty.) That'd be cool. Not sure what else he could do that would make him more 'epic" than Lu Ting-Pin except giving him more magic.

Anyway, I'm doing really well in this game but I think it's because of my position and skilled use of my military, not my hero. All he's done is search for sites, really.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Foodstamp, you are making it sound like you were the one who was peacefully standing around. You were the one who practically declared war on both of us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[LoloMo]

I would like to submit that the epic hero for MA Agartha is sub sub sub par. He is basically a national troop with added w2. I just put him in the castle for research.

[Foodstamp]

I am clearly the victim here sir http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

My first post was written jokingly, except I really needed the 48 hours because of my RL schedule right now.

Someone sent me a private message thinking the post was serious, so I made the second post to let the parties involved know that I don't mind fighting a multifront war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Goodluck in the fights to come!

[Xietor]

Lolo,

My hands are basically tied with respect to Agartha and Bandar Log's Epic Heroes made by Endoperez. He has been serving in his country's armed forces, and has not been available for dominions III discussions of late.

Endoperez made the 2 heroes he did for the Epic Heroes Mod, with the clear understanding that I could only tweak his heroes if they were OVERPOWERD, not otherwise.

While I technically breached the deal by adding a research bonus to Agartha, Endoperez gave his blessing to that change. I do understand that he thought the magic abilities of the Agartha Epic Hero opened up significant options not otherwise available to agartha.

You could send him a pm highlighting the imbalances you have observed. So he is not one of the 3 Hall of Fame commanders your race presently has?


And Dr. P, boring? Pleeassse. You made him. If you want a melee type hero, feel free to redesign him. I am not sure Tien chi needs a dominion summon for early expansion or defense.

Dr. P said:

"He's rather like an existing hero Lu Ting-Pin (whom I also got) but with +1W, +2A, +1H, awe, magic being, the dominion spread, and he loses flight and the armor slot."

The thing is, my good Dr., there is no guarantee you will get one of the very powerful Worthy Heroes. You begin the game with Li Bo.

And the Epic Heroes are supposed to be Epic, but some of the beefed up 1.7 Worthy heroes are sorta Epic as well. For some races it almost makes sense to take 3 luck to try and maximize your chancce of getting the Worthy heroes.

If you take 3 mis like Pythium, you only get your Epic Hero. So if another player takes 3 misf with Tien Chi, maybe Li Bo's value to them will be greater than a player who had the good fortune to get an immortal Worthy Hero right off the bat!

I will add that I have yet to get any worthy hero, and yes i am jealous!

[LoloMo]

No worries Xietor, I'll try to work towards the advantage Endoperez had in mind.

[Foodstamp]

I apologize for the stale turn. Something unexpected came up at the last minute and I was 30 minutes too late to submit my turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Just to let you know, the stale was an isolated instance.

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, you're right. He's +1F,+1A vs. the basic version. Okay, that's fair. I still think Li Bo should get his flight back - maybe trade fire for nature? The fire is a lot *better* but he's really very similar to the other immortal. He's sort-of a bard, maybe he should be a stealthy spy? With the dominion spread you might actually use him for that.

R'lyeh, the vile betrayer, must perish! After agreeing with me on a joint attack against Mictlan (but not to an NAP, I don't believe), he has stabbed me in the back, taking my only water province (held in reserve to cast underwater summons.)

Therefore, I extend the scaly hand of peace towards our mutual neighbors - Mictlan (jutetrea) and Atlantis (zoshan), may consider allying themselves with R'lyeh, but do you really wish such a poisonous snake at your side? The celestial empire promises true constancy.

Death to R'lyeh!
--Knife Bright Insight

[Tuidjy]

Speaking of heroes, I have made no use of my angel except as H3 priest. Without
equipment he is much too vulnerable. I have played a few test games, and he
cannot be risked in front line combat even with Alt3 and Ench3. With some
equipment he becomes a bit tougher, but is still not worth risking against
barbarians, most of the tribe warriors, or lancers.

On the other hand, he may be a SC of note once he's equipped at Con4 Alt3 Ench3.
Unfortunately, the random generator seems to always give him the morale+leadership
trait. That has been the case in 4 out of the 5 games I started with him.

[Zoshan]

My hero has a squid face. Beat that!!!

[Sieger]

R'lyeh, the vile betrayer, must perish! After agreeing with me on a joint attack against Mictlan (but not to an NAP, I don't believe), he has stabbed me in the back, taking my only water province (held in reserve to cast underwater summons.)

Therefore, I extend the scaly hand of peace towards our mutual neighbors - Mictlan (jutetrea) and Atlantis (zoshan), may consider allying themselves with R'lyeh, but do you really wish such a poisonous snake at your side? The celestial empire promises true constancy.

Death to R'lyeh!
--Knife Bright Insight



The good people of Mictlan are a bit bloodthirsty; but after careful consultations with our Starspawns it was decided to leave the friendly (albeit blood-hungry) people of Mictlan alone.

We would never wish conflict with our friendly (albeit desirous of conquest) neighbors T'ien C'hi! However, we looked upon your control of the water province in question and were puzzled. Would it not be better for the tritons to be ruled by benevolent Illithids, who, as fellow under water creatures better understand their needs?!

And, while we are a trusting and peaceful race, we are cautious and suspicious of outsiders. We were concerned that perhaps a less-noble race than T'ien C'hi could some day come to control said underwater province and use it as a base from which they could summon all manner of dreadful things to use against our peaceful nation. So it was decided, albeit with a heavy heart, that we had to wrest control of it from our dear friends, the nation of T'ien C'hi.

[jutetrea]

Mictlan's diplomacy efforts have been weak this game, real life has been busy. To save effort, we'll get everything out in the open initially.

Mictlan has finished expanding to neutral territories.

Unfortunately due to our scales we will need to continue expanding somewhere, our income is already dropping and with no blood economy forthcoming we would be in dire straights soon.

We currently have NAPs with all of our neighbors other than T'ien Chi. TC has recently withdrawn their offer of peace, yet has made no direct assault on our lands (minus some unfortunate accidental meetings with their large god) (large, intimidating god)(with fangs, biiig fangs).

TC has a large army, large income, high research, and the forementioned large god. We have a largish army, good income, poor research, no SC god - but an SC hero and a very good bless.

While a confrontation with TC would be reasonable, it is not a foregone conclusion. Even with the heavy rumors of TC attempting to gain allies to attack us. We are an early stage threat, losing relevence as time passes. TC can be a very good late game threat if left unchecked. If willing to work together...

Again, Mictlan needs to start expanding again. Which will mean war with someone, within the next 4 turns. We would like to consider offers from our various neighbors in terms of temporary alliances and common foes.

[Xietor]

It sounds like war is on the horizon for some unsuspecting nation........

[jutetrea]

No, they'll be suspecting. I'll formally declare war before doing anything of course, its just that we'll need a direction to expand. At this point there are just no directions better than any other (except fighting Ry'leh.. I hate water battles).

I'm just hoping it stirs the pot a bit, maybe find an ally or two - or an enemy or 3. If nothing happens in the next turn or two I'll see who wants to join up and pick on a common target. Right now it seems everyone in my neck of the woods is relatively peaceful. Terrible scales make peace difficult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[GameExtremist]

Can anyone tell me why when I open turn 21 I get the error message -

Nagot gick fel!
Myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/.\ehspr\obsidianmedium.tga

[llamabeast]

I can guess. For the first time this turn, you've met Agartha's obsidian medium, and Dominions can't find the graphics for it.

Basically you just need to check the graphics files are in the right place. You should have a folder called 'ehspr' in your mods folder, and it should have a load of tga files in it. If you don't, extract the Epic Heroes zip file again, making sure everything ends up in the folders it's meant to.

Hope that helps.

[GameExtremist]

Reinstalled mod...all is good.

[jutetrea]

Luckily the nation of Mictlan's decision was made for us. Tien Chi has invaded our lands with no formal declaration of war or provocation.

We extend peace and goodwill to everyone opposed to Tien Chi's rise to supremacy.

[Xietor]

I love the free scouting reports!

Check message of the day on the website for the newest lawyer joke.

[Xietor]

Poll:

I need this information for development purposes.

Who made their Epic Hero a prophet?

Please send the information to Llamabeast, who will provide me with only the raw data in terms of how many of the 12 nations made their Epic Hero a prophet.

In other words, Llamabeast will not tell me what nations made their Epic Hero a prophet, but how many nations out of 12 did.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[DrPraetorious]

Anyone who does not think that Late Game Mictlan is a threat has been seriously misinformed. They get the best deal on researchers in the game, and very efficient site searching out of their capital. Gems + research = late game threat. The fact that they can boostrap into powerful, summoned sacreds should not be discounted either.

We are, in any case, generous. We will be happy to eliminate Mictlan's main force, before they grow into their obscene late-game power - taking the brunt of the fighting ourselves, we would not begrudge anyone who wished to take Mictlan's lands.

In any case, as we have an NAP with one of our shared neighbours - and the treacherous serpent R'lyeh is welcome to invade us, we have more than enough reserves to intercept a land invasion - we encourage everyone else to wait and see. When we slaughter the early-game armies of Mictlan, you can feel free to loot them at that time without ill will from us.

[Xietor]

I have you all beat-MA Shinuyama is a threat to no one! I can even quote you excerpts from Dr. P's threads ranting about how
underpowered MA Shinuyama is.

Save us for LAST.

[Foodstamp]

Move me to AI. I haven't even had a chance to look at my turn I just staled and I have a feeling it is going to be that way a while.

I do have one bug to report.

It seems that Machaka's Assassin has an ability called "Back Stab". I believe the range on this ability has not been set, causing it to have the default range of 100. I am guessing by the name of the ability it is supposed to be a touch ranged attack?

Goodluck with the rest of the game, I apologize I got so caught up in RL stuff that I had no time to play this one out. As a side note, both turns I staled I made it home minutes after the turns hosted lol.

[Tuidjy]

Some despicable coward sent a Seeking Arrow at our prophet, but a brave optio
threw himself in the path of the projective. His armour saved his life,
but he is gravely injured. His centuriae is clamoring for blood. The Empire of
Pythium is at war with no one, and has received no declaration of war this turn.

Now, there is an air nation that borders us, and they have not answered our
latest diplomatic overtures. The other air nation seems to be paralyzed by
internal strife and it would be rather strange if someone without a stake in
our neighborhood is wasting air gems shooting at us.

Thus, the Empire of Pythium is asking the leaders of Man:

Do you solemnly swear that no magician under your command fired that arrow?
Should we look elsewhere for our villain?

[DrPraetorious]

As the other major air power, I state officially: I do not even know where you are, and certainly have not been firing arrows at you.

[Xietor]

The backstab ability of the Machaka Assassin is no fluke, but a carefully devised simulation of a true backstab ability.

Skilled assassins have historically been given a backstab to start a battle. Since that ability is not capable of modding, I gave the assassin a ranged attack with 1 ammo to simulate the backstab ability of an assassin.

Machaka's assassin is armed with bane blades that cause decay, thus his "backstab' ability also has decay, as the 1 shot ranged attack is designed to be the equivalent of an attack with his daggar.

[Dragonninjaakira]

I did not make my epic hero (c'tis) a prophet.

[Xietor]

I was not asking for public disclosure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

That was why i requested just sending Llamabeast a pm. But since you did, I will also to be fair:

My hero is not a prophet either. But there is no need for anyone else to make a public disclosure.

[Xietor]

My limited admin. powers do not allow me to set anyone to AI.
Maybe Foodstamp can do a turn and set himself to Ai, or maybe Llamabeast can do it.

When Foodstamp is gone, I would like to set the turns back to 24 hours if no one objects.

[Tuidjy]

I do not object to 24 hours during the week, but on the weekend it's a pain.

[jutetrea]

ha, exact opposite here. Weekends are easy (would love to find a game where a bunch could sit for 4 hours or so and just bang out turns... at least till the baby comes). Weekdays are tougher, that whole work thing gets in the way.

Is there a 36 hour quickhost setting?

[Xietor]

It seems like some may still favor the 48 hour setting. Let us just leave it on 48 hours, and it will quick host if everyone gets their turns done earlier.

That way we can get the best of all worlds, a lot of time to do your turn, but a quicker host if everyone happens to be able to find the time to do them earlier!

* I did not try and find a sub for Vanheim, because his scales are not ones I personally would want, and his demise is fairly certain, as my pathetic armies are 2 turns from his capital. And Vanheim's decision to declare war on 2 nations(albeit weak ones) has taken a toll.

[llamabeast]

I set Vanheim to AI. Soon this will be possible in a long-winded way via the admin options (change nation's address to your address, resend their turn and set them to AI), when I get round to adding the 'change address' function.

[Xietor]

The option outlined above is not an ideal one if the admin is also a player in the game.

Though I am sure Llamabeast hates to babysit games, he may have to continue doing it unless a way can be devised of doing it without the admin seeing the player's nation while setting it to ai.

It is subject to potential abuse. The admin. could send himself all of the players items, gems, gold etc. While I personally would take no satisfaction in a win achieved by cheating, others may.

[llamabeast]

Well, the admin would just have to send the turn to some trusted third party. Once that option is available then my position will be no different to that of any other third party.

I am very keen to make sure that I don't have to remain alert for all the games to run smoothly, once I've finished the server off - keeping track of ten games or more could quickly get overwhelming!

[llamabeast]

Note that this is the same for all MP dominions games by the way. The way it should be done is that the departing player sets themselves to AI - that's how it's designed. Unfortunately sometimes people disappear without doing so.

[LoloMo]

Actually, I think an admin cheating is very remote. The more commonly encountered problem would be a player believing erroneously that he has been cheated. So the more prudent course of action would be to not have the potential for cheating at all.

[llamabeast]

Yeah LoloMo, I think you are right.

When I add the option to change a player's e-mail address, I will have the server e-mail the old address to inform them that it is being changed. This will prevent an admin from sneakily changing the address, resending the turn and changing it back to peek at the player's turn. And that is the only way I can think of that an admin will be able to cheat. Non-admin players should be completely unable to cheat on the LlamaServer so far as I can think.

As for setting players to AI - that's a bit tricky because you actually need someone to take the player's turn. As I say, I think finding a trusted third party (me, Gandalf, lch, Dr P or quite a number of other people) to take the turn and set them to AI is the way forward.

[Tuidjy]

Another Seeking arrow was fired at the greatest water mage of Pythium. As a
powerful and respected functionary of the Empire, he had been gifted with a Robe
of Shadows, and laughed at the threat. Unfortunately, many of his younger
colleagues are getting quite uncomfortable at the thought that they may have to
dodge a Seeking Arrow themselves, without the benefit of etherialness.

One of our barbarian shamans has tried some of his divination methods, and
according to him, the culprit is Man, who is trying to draw our armies east, so
that his ally C'tis can rush to our capital unopposed. That of course is too far
fetched and no one's listening to the shaman...

But after all is said and done, whoever is doing the firing is an enemy, and he is
wasting four air gems per turn for a chance to kill a junior magician. Risky for
the Theurgs and Acolytes without a robe, but not necessarily bad for the Empire.

[Xietor]

Everyone pause and take a deep breath.

Take one turn off from the hostilities and send me gold! My pathetic armies are fighting 80 double 9 blessed vans, and 5 watchers, that despite having 0/2 movement are part of the traveling circus through my lands!

These watchers also have a 25 precision and cast orb lightning(: So we are also accepting rings of lightning protection.

Who was it that claimed that Vanheim's Epic Hero was underpowered?

For those that do not know me-I have a warped sense of humor. I do not really expect any gold! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sir_Dr_D]

80 double blessed vans?

Vanheim is still in better shape then I thought. Maybe we should have found a replacement for Foodstamp.

Those watchers hsould not be able to move. Is this an AI bug?


And send some of those vans my way. Machaka is still itching to take down more vans.

[Xietor]

I think it is too late to switch back to a player. I had no idea he had 80 either, but he does(:

[Foodstamp]

The watchers moving is an AI bug. The AI ignores 0 map movement.

My position was not all that bad. I didn't have time to check the turn after I staled last time, but the time I staled before that my guys actually won battles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I built the nation pretty solid, I just don't have time to play it.

I suggested turning it over to the AI because I thought you guys would be more capable of dealing with a normal AI Vanheim and I did not want to place the replacement in a hopeless position.

Goodluck.

[Xietor]

I will be out of town from 7/11-7/18.

Llamabeast has graciously agreed to do my turns during my absence. I will brief him as to my diplomatic situation when i depart.