Neo Xekinima - LA game of Mod nations (finished)

[lch]

I want to host a game which purely consists of mod nations that are not in the vanilla game. Some people are very busy in creating these fine nations, but it seems like they are rarely played, because there are already quite a lot of nations in the original game. So, this game will ONLY have the nations from third contributors and none from the game so that people can try them out in a serious game.

I'm looking for 8 players for the following nations:
The Hoburg Kingdom, Crossbows and Butter (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=507569&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Normalphil (left out for now)
Teutanion, Age of Honor (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=467539&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Zepath (played by Reverend Zombie)
Kharam Dzu, Hoist the Black Flag (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=472982&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Zepath (played by HoneyBadger)
Sanguinia, Vampire Counts (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=469859&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1) by Zepath (played by LoloMo)
Sylvania, The Last New Dawn (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=471329&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Zepath (played by Cainehill)
Vaettihiem, Exiled Tribes (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=496158&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Sombre (played by BandarLover)
New Ulm, Iron Faith Reborn (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=500522&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Sombre (played by Tuidjy)
New Jomon, Broken Swords (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=510450&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Sombre (played by Jazzepi)
We will be using the CBM flavors of Zepath's and Sombre's nations which have been tuned by Sombre for use with CB 1.1. Sombre will finish a CBM variant of Sylvania this weekend so that it will get balanced out a bit and then we're good to go. The Colossus pretender from Teutanion will probably get removed, or at least balanced, too.

I have tested if it is possible to play all nations simultaneously and it's possible, if we live with a little drawback: We can't have all the descriptions active ingame at the same time (I filed a bug report for that). Because of that, I plan to remove some pretenders from the final mod which are not being used by the players, and maybe some descriptions from rarely used units/heroes, if there's still need for that. The nations won't have any descriptions in our game, either, because otherwise I'd have to pull descriptions from a lot more units. Everything else will be inside, though.

Try the modded nations out and if you have found a candidate which you want to play then you can sign up here. Please only sign up if you have gained enough experience how to play a multiplayer game with the normal nations. Age will be late age, CB 1.1, we'll decide on map etc. later. Prolly 48 hour quickhost, maybe 24 hours for the first couple turns.

I'm looking forward to the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Nice initiative. WIll probably make people interested and make the mods more popular.

[HoneyBadger]

I'd love to join, but I definitely do lack MP experience

[lch]

If you say so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I just want to prevent that players pick nations without being aware of their strengths and weaknesses. The metagame, which you seem to have problems with, is another thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

I'm not having all *that* many problems-sometimes, appearances decieve http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The only nation up there that I'm familiar with is Kharam Dzu

[BandarLover]

I'd love to do this but I'm hoping to get eliminated from a few other MP's I am in before I commit to another MP (5 games is about all I can handle as is). Perhaps you and Honeybadger can help me out with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

A chance to play Hoburgs?

Count me in.

Thats the Hoburg Kingdom, crossbows and butter for me.

I am totally unfamilar with any of those modded nations but I am into fun new experiences...

[Dragonninjaakira]

I would like to play as the vampire people. A race of vampires seems pretty interesting and should be fun. I'm gonna try them out now.

[Dragonninjaakira]

I cant seem to get the sanguinia mod to open it keeps saying that it cannot open the icon...

Help?

[Tuidjy]

I want to play. Count me in, even if you end up assigning the nations randomly.
But I still would like to try the nations. Can I assume that I can just
download all the mods above, and enable them concurrently?

I do not consider myself a newbie, but I have very little experiences with mods.
I just started a modded game... three times ;-) I hope this one has fewer
problems getting rolling.

[lch]

Dragonninjaakira, if you can't open the zip file natively (although WinXP should have support for that - I am just assuming that you're on Windows now) then you need to install a program like WinRar or WinZip on your computer.

Tuidjy, I will create one file with CB 1.1 and all the mod nations inside. We will use that file for playing, I'll release it later when Sombre has the Silvans ready.

I won't restart the game, if one particular nation proves to be too strong right from the start, then there's diplomacy to take care of that. The Hoburgs are the only ones which won't have received the CBM treatment, so if you have some time I'd appreciate if you could test them for balance. They seem to have a very solid war machine according to the thread. Should be a fun game, anyway. Minor changes to the mod could be made on the fly while playing. You're encouraged to give helpful feedback to the mod authors in their threads.

I'll update the main post to show which nations have been taken already.

[Jazzepi]

I would like to play. Please just assign me a nation that no one wants to play. Or whomever is left open.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Okay, I guess it really will be easier for you to testplay with the nations if I just give you the preliminary mod that I put together. I have now attached my version to the main post. Sombre wants to make some balance changes to the Sylvans and other stuff, like I said, and the nations and some of New Jomon's commanders are missing their description because of the bug, but apart from that it's ready to play.

It seems like 4 positions are still open for now!

[Tuidjy]

I just read the fluff of the nations, and as a long time Bretonnia player, I
will probably request the Teutanions... But I will first take a good look
at the nations.

[llamabeast]

Hey lch - Vaettiheim is by Sombre, not Zepath.

[lch]

oops, thanks.

added a few picks by people that are still a bit undecided. looks like there are 2-3 spots left now.

[Tuidjy]

Can I switch to the new Ulm? I love the idea that Ulm survived to the later age
without falling to the malediction :-) Love live Ulm!

[Dragonninjaakira]

I already have unzipped the file but it still says the same message.

[llamabeast]

Oh lch, i meant to say before - this is something I've been meaning to do for ages, so good work for getting it organised. I think it should be really good fun.

Tuidjy - Ulm Reborn is absolutely awesome, I'd recommend them highly.

[Tuidjy]

I assume that before we start, the elves will receive a few fixes - for example,
some of their elite troops are lacking weapons, and others have their weapons
improperly assigned, resulting in abysmal attack.

If possible, can you also make it so that Ulm does is allowed some more appropriate
gods? At this time, they get only evil and undead pretenders, which is great for
the Malediction, but not for what we have here.

[lch]

Yeah, Boron already reported on the ambidextrousity thing in the Sylvania thread and Sombre said he would fix it for the CBM version.

You should post the pretender thing regarding Ulm Reborn in its thread, too. Changing them would be an easy thing to do.

[Sombre]

Ulm Reborn only get the base pretenders. Nothing specifically evil or undead, just the stuff every nation gets access to as a default.

I'll give them access to more pretenders this weekend. If you would like to help out, go to the Ulm Reborn thread in the subforum and make a list of the pretenders for me to add to their selection, preferably with ID numbers if you know them.

[Meglobob]

Hi Ich, sorry about this, but on reflection I will not have enough free time to play in this game. A load of work as turned up in my in tray and its looking bad all summer long. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

So let someone else play the mighty hoburgs.

Thanks and sorry again for any inconvience.

[lch]

No problem. We still got plenty of time till the rebalancing is done and the final mod is ready, and some other players should sign up till then... I hope. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Tuidjy]

Hey, anyone interested in playing a short game, possibly a one on one 'till
we get enough for a full one? A 2x2 maybe, given we have 4 players already?

[lch]

Sombre has Sylvania and Vaettiheim done and will be working on the Hoburgs a little tomorrow, then I can prepare the final mod. I guess I'll write a little introduction to the nations (or just embed zepath's wonderful preview images and create some new ones) in case people are unwilling to click on the links to have a look at the mod nations. I still hope to draft more players so that we can have a game with all 8 nations, but otherwise we could go for four, too. Two people told me that they'd be interested in joining in about 4 weeks, so we could then go from four to eight mod nations.

[BandarLover]

I'm down with waiting for us to fill up. More the merrier.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, if you can't find a player for whichever nation is left, I'll be happy to cover the last slot, whatever's left, just to see the game be full.

I mean, I'm certainly not going to get more experienced unless I play, right?

[lch]

Sorry, I am experiencing some technical difficulties with my laptop since the start of this week and it could take me some time to assemble the final mod. Sombre has completed the CBM versions of the missing mods over the weekends, props to him.

HoneyBadger, I had put you down with Kharam Dzu, but you can still switch if you want. Personally I'd like that every nation is present in the game.

[HoneyBadger]

Nope, I'm fine-I'm a fan of Kharam Dzu http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Ich, I'm going to send what I want for my Pretender to you in a Private Message, so that it'll be in on time.

[BandarLover]

Was there a dead line for pretenders? Did I miss this? Whaaaa?

[Cainehill]

Wow, two nations that look really appealing still open. Can I have Sylvania? ( If they wind up taken, New Jomon. )

[lch]

BandarLover said:
Was there a dead line for pretenders? Did I miss this? Whaaaa?


No, don't worry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I still have to prepare the final mod for this game, but since Sombre has finished his CBM versions I'm doing that right away. Just had some things that threw me off track for a bit.


Cainehill said:
Can I have Sylvania? ( If they wind up taken, New Jomon. )



Sure, I put you down with them. Please note that we'll be using the CBM version of them and they might change a little from the current preliminary mod that I offered for download in the top post.

[lch]

Okay, it looks like we're only looking for 3 more players for the following nations:
The Hoburg Kingdom, Crossbows and Butter (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=507569&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Normalphil
Teutanion, Age of Honor (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=467539&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Zepath
New Jomon, Broken Swords (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=510450&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) by Sombre
Make sure to sign up here and grab them before they're gone! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Here is a preview of the Teutanion mod nation units by Zepath:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/351/previewjj4.jpg
I'll make preview images of the other two nations that are left when I get time for it... But don't worry, they're all cool!

[LoloMo]

I'll take the Hoburg kingdom! =)

[Morkilus]

I've been anxious to play an all-mod game. I'm in as Jomon unless someone else REALLY wants to play them.

[lch]

Okay, since Jazzepi said that he'd take whatever nation that's left then I guess it's Teutanion for him - sign up is finished! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'll release the final mod soon, might take me up to 24 hours. Then you can design your pretenders. Let's decide about the map then. I have been looking at the Uropia map (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Number=464358), also by Zepath, which I'd want to use unless there is a veto from the players. It has 144+23 provinces, so 18 land provinces per player and some water provinces so that nations like Kharam Dzu can make use of their sailing ability. Does anybody have objections about 18 provinces per player?

[Reverend Zombie]

I'll try Teutanion if it's still available.

[lch]

Sorry we're full, Reverend Zombie, but if somebody wants to withdraw from the game then you could take over.

[Morkilus]

You can have Jomon if you like, Rev. I'll get in on the next mod game; my other games are really heating up and I need to concentrate on them, anyway.

[Tuidjy]

I looked at the map. Pray you start in Europe, and not for example in
Northern Afrika.

By the way, is the attachement to the first post the mod we will be using?

[lch]

No, that was the preliminary version. I still have to compile the finished version, and I'll create it ASAP, but unfortunately I really have my hands full it the moment. So let's talk about the map some more until I am done... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

P.S.: If you want to withdraw, Morkilus, then Reverend Zombie could even take Teutanion and Jazzepi would get Jomon Broken, he said he doesn't mind... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Morkilus]

Yeah, I'll withdraw. Let me know if anyone needs a sub or replacement, though!

[lch]

Okay, I changed the nation assignments accordingly. Good to have you as a backup, too.

[Reverend Zombie]

Morkilus said:
You can have Jomon if you like, Rev. I'll get in on the next mod game; my other games are really heating up and I need to concentrate on them, anyway.



...and I'm getting rolled in a fair number of my other games, so I'm about to have some concentration to spare...Thanks for making room for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[BandarLover]

I'm cool with whatever map you think is good Ich.

Knowing my luck, I'll be starting in North Africa. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

I haven't tried it out, but I'm hoping that Kharam Dzu hasn't been crazy-nerfted for CBM, can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

[lch]

Looks like Sombre nerfed the att/def minimally and range, but there are improvements aswell: gold cost for most of your units got cheaper, some units received added resistances, and mapmove 1 was increased to mapmove 2 for all the units.

[Cainehill]

When do we expect the updated mods, and then when are the pretenders expected after that?

[lch]

Cainehill said:

When do we expect the updated mods, and then when are the pretenders expected after that?


The mod will be ready within 24 hours. Prolly less, now that I woke up again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I'd have taken care of it earlier, but there are a couple of things at the moment that kept me real busy. My notebook broke down, seriously handicapping me, my host said that he is switching from Linux to Windows which required me to find a new Linux based host and move all my games over (done that already, now, though), and I'm going to a conference for a week starting tomorrow all besides normal work, so I'm busy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

I'll write PM's to the people when the mod is ready. We'll then start whenever all the pretenders are in, so on Monday in case all of you are fast with that or some other day in the coming week. Maybe somebody else decides to withdraw from the game, we'll see. Setting the game up can be done in a jiffy. Since I heard no objections except "please don't let me start in North Africa", we'll use the Uropia map.

[lch]

I have finished the new mod that we'll prolly use for playing. I'll now send out PM's to all the players with the information on how we are proceeding.

[Cainehill]

Awesome. Umm - what settings are we going to be at? Just read through the thread and never saw that mentioned.

Also - even with Insane 50, New Hoburg's Fallen Wizard pretender seems a bit much, especially for a blessing strategy - 35 points for lvl 2 in _three_ paths, gem income 2, and new paths costing only 20 points.

( Edit - Had mistaken New Ulm for New Hoburg.

[Cainehill]

Umm - also, Sylvania's Phoenix Guard still has a Fist for a weapon, instead of the golden bardiche they're supposed to have. Likewise, the Enchantress, Loremaster, and Priestess only have fists for weapons, which might be by design, but seems unlikely (as they probably should at least have a knife, eldar dagger, something).

Edit : And the lance Glade Rider doesn't have a sword like it should, only Light Lance and Hoof - should presumably have an Eldar Blade as well.

[lch]

Cainehill said:
Awesome. Umm - what settings are we going to be at? Just read through the thread and never saw that mentioned.


I think I wrote in the PM that everything will be set to standard, and we're going to have 48 hours quickhosting.


Cainehill said:
Also - even with Insane 50, New Hoburg's Fallen Wizard pretender seems a bit much, especially for a blessing strategy - 35 points for lvl 2 in _three_ paths, gem income 2, and new paths costing only 20 points.


It used to be even worse before, new paths at 10 points and lvl 3 in those three paths. Yes, it does open up very good blessing potential, but now you at least have to take bad scales to get it to full effect.


Cainehill said:
Umm - also, Sylvania's Phoenix Guard still has a Fist for a weapon, instead of the golden bardiche they're supposed to have. Likewise, the Enchantress, Loremaster, and Priestess only have fists for weapons, which might be by design, but seems unlikely (as they probably should at least have a knife, eldar dagger, something).

Edit : And the lance Glade Rider doesn't have a sword like it should, only Light Lance and Hoof - should presumably have an Eldar Blade as well.


Please write a post on Sombre's CBM thread about this (or the mod thread), or provide a fix for it. I can replace the mod without problems, but I got no time to fix this myself.

[Cainehill]

lch said:

Cainehill said:
Umm - also, Sylvania's Phoenix Guard still has a Fist for a weapon, instead of the golden bardiche they're supposed to have. Likewise, the Enchantress, Loremaster, and Priestess only have fists for weapons, which might be by design, but seems unlikely (as they probably should at least have a knife, eldar dagger, something).

Edit : And the lance Glade Rider doesn't have a sword like it should, only Light Lance and Hoof - should presumably have an Eldar Blade as well.


Please write a post on Sombre's CBM thread about this (or the mod thread), or provide a fix for it. I can replace the mod without problems, but I got no time to fix this myself.



Okay - found the problems and have fixed them, two modded weapons shared the same number (Dwarven Fire and Dawn's Edge), and one of the Glade Runner units didn't have all the right lines in its entry. I'm attaching a version that fixes only those things - I don't know if there's problems with other nations having missing weapons, spells, etc, caused by folding all the mods together.

[Cainehill]

And, unfortunately, I see there's still a bug with attachments - server didn't process my zip file properly, so I'm not sure what to do here.

My fix was changing the weapon number for Dawn's Edge from 815 (shared with Dwarven Fire) to 829, and changing

#weapon "Light Lance"
#weapon 56
#armor "Elven Leather Hauberk"

to :

#weapon "Light Lance"
#weapon 56
#weapon "Eldar Blade"
#armor "Elven Leather Hauberk"

on the Glade Runner.

[Cainehill]

Okay - Sombre says that second fix is bad, because with the original lines, that glade rider is fighting with Lance, Hoof, _and_ Eldar Blade all at the same time. Looking at the unit's attack skill stats, it winds up being AT 4/10/6, so it is indeed better to remove a weapon, even if the description says, "lance and sword".

Not sure if you'd ever recruit the glade rider with lance then, since lance is definately inferior to the Eldar Blade. (But the unit does get a shield - still, I think it ought to have the Eldar Blade and not the lance.)

[LoloMo]

I don't mind waiting until those fixes can be done. No hurry.

[Cainehill]

Likewise - no hurry, but I think every player should go through a test SP game and check their units, give a once-over to make sure there aren't any glaring errors. No one can be expected to verify all the nations - but each player should have incentive to verify their own nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tuidjy]

Heh. After playing the hoburgs, I'm scared... because I am having trouble
figuring out how one stops a deluge of highly armoured, heavily massed,
crossbow shooting free troops.

Oh... I started a new game on the attached map. Two of the nations started
with only two land provinces next to their capitals. Another started on the
little sliver of land in the SW, with only three neighbors. Frankly, I
would not say much for Ulm or Teutanion's chances if they were to start
like that.

[lch]

Tuidjy said:
Heh. After playing the hoburgs, I'm scared... because I am having trouble
figuring out how one stops a deluge of highly armoured, heavily massed,
crossbow shooting free troops.


Yes, the Hoburgs are a bulldozer in the early game, no question about that.


Tuidjy said:
Oh... I started a new game on the attached map. Two of the nations started
with only two land provinces next to their capitals. Another started on the
little sliver of land in the SW, with only three neighbors. Frankly, I
would not say much for Ulm or Teutanion's chances if they were to start
like that.


I can top that: When I created a test game, two nations capitals were assigned to the same province by the game. That means that one of them was instantly defeated. I do want to assign starting provinces by hand and I take your recommendations, if you have them. But be aware that not everybody can start on the other side of the map from the Hoburgs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[HoneyBadger]

If you think those little pipsqueaks are tough, wait until you see what Kharam Dzu can do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BandarLover]

Ha!! Vaeittiheim will clearly be the superior 'pipsqueek' nation! Course, it helps that we are backed by trolls. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

You guys are dreaming. I've been messing around with the hoburgs, and I have
yet to find any counter to a rush, apart from the obvious (SC pretender)...

And of course, the CB mod makes SC pretenders prohibitively expensive.

[lch]

Have you tried beating them the Heim way, with three or more other nations allying up against them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[LoloMo]

Hey wait a minute... Don't hurt the little pipsqueaks! We have no mid or end game strength at all! If anyone should be allowed to live it's the poor little hoburgs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif And we're the second to the last nation to be picked, so all those other nations chosen first has got to be better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[LoloMo]

Oh, is the game ready to run? Or are there still changes to the mod to be made?

[LoloMo]

And also:

!!Special One Time Offer!!

The kindly nation of Hoburgs would like to extend a proposal of a NAP up to and including turn 50 to the first 3 nations to PM us. Offer is valid only before the game starts.

No purchase necessary to avail of this promo.

[Cainehill]

LoloMo said:
Oh, is the game ready to run? Or are there still changes to the mod to be made?



We do still need an "official" fixed version of the combinated mod I think, just so's everyone is playing the same sheet of music. We know what the fix for Sylvania is, but it needs to be put up for download.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm ready to go whenever everyone else is.

[quantum_mechani]

Tuidjy said:

And of course, the CB mod makes SC pretenders prohibitively expensive.

I'm not sure what change would be so drastic as to cause this. Certainly something like a PoD with with air magic or other item/buff combos can still tear through a lot of armies.

[lch]

Cainehill said:
We do still need an "official" fixed version of the combinated mod I think, just so's everyone is playing the same sheet of music.


No, actually what I am waiting for is your pretenders. I have received pretenders from
Kharam Dzu (as do-it-yourself-version via PM)
Vaettiheim
Teutanion (but I'm still missing the password)
New Jomonso hurry up and mail me your pretenders. Come on, I explained to you what you had to do in the same PM where I gave you the download link to the Mod, so you should have read it and known about this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Reverend Zombie]

lch said:
Come on, I explained to you what you had to do in the same PM where I gave you the download link to the Mod, so you should have read it and known about this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



I thought some problems were discovered *after* you sent that PM, however, and that we were waiting for *those* to be fixed.

[Cainehill]

Reverend Zombie said:

lch said:
Come on, I explained to you what you had to do in the same PM where I gave you the download link to the Mod, so you should have read it and known about this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



I thought some problems were discovered *after* you sent that PM, however, and that we were waiting for *those* to be fixed.



Having just downloaded the mod again, I can confirm that it still has the bloody problem with Dawn's Edge. Ich, until the players all have a version of the .dm file with the weapon numbers fixed, it can't start. Emailing pretenders based on a broken .dm file isn't really a good option.

[Morkilus]

Tuidjy said:
And of course, the CB mod makes SC pretenders prohibitively expensive.



This sounds completely wrong to me; the only pretenders that were upped in price were the ones that encourage ridiculous blesses, and those most people set imprisoned anyway. Look at some magicless pretenders; those are SCs by definition and were actually buffed to an extent.

[Jazzepi]

lch said:

Cainehill said:
We do still need an "official" fixed version of the combinated mod I think, just so's everyone is playing the same sheet of music.


No, actually what I am waiting for is your pretenders. I have received pretenders from
Kharam Dzu (as do-it-yourself-version via PM)
Vaettiheim
Teutanion (but I'm still missing the password)
New Jomonso hurry up and mail me your pretenders. Come on, I explained to you what you had to do in the same PM where I gave you the download link to the Mod, so you should have read it and known about this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



I thought I sent my pretender to you a long time ago? Do I need to remake it because of the mod fix?

Jazzepi

[lch]

Reverend Zombie said:
I thought some problems were discovered *after* you sent that PM, however, and that we were waiting for *those* to be fixed.


Actually, creation of the pretenders and patching the bugs that have been reported are two entirely different things, since none of the bugs were about the pretenders. What's inside the mod about slots and weapons of some units doesn't affect your pretender creation at all. So just create your pretenders and send me the file from your newlords folder. I will release a new version of the mod before we start the game with the bugs fixed that have been reported (as long as I can fix them), and we can collect more bugs until then, but there's no point in releasing an updated mod five times in a row in the meantime.


Jazzepi said:
I thought I sent my pretender to you a long time ago?


Yes, that's why I said that I have your pretender and you're in the list. But some others haven't, yet. Sylvania has sent me a pretender now, too.

[Jazzepi]

Sorry, I'm retarded. I forgot I was playing New Jomon. I love their sacred unit, though I think they're useless for any sort of bless strat.

Jazzepi

[HoneyBadger]

That's one of the reasons (after the fact, maybe) that I did send what I wanted for my Pretender in a PM, it's easier to work with than a broken file

[Tuidjy]

So, we ARE supposed to email pretenders NOW?

[BandarLover]

In the name of all that is good and holy!! Yes please email your pretenders now!!!




http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[lch]

Tuidjy said:
So, we ARE supposed to email pretenders NOW?


Tuidjy, yes you are. If you have any more corrections to the mod please list them inside this thread. Yes, Hoburg is supposed to be steamrolling you in early game, This is supposed to be a test game with a bit of fun for the players involved. Please also notice that I'm quite drunk (I had to type this paragraph like two dozen times)...

[LoloMo]

Pretender sent!

[Tuidjy]

> Yes, Hoburg is supposed to be steamrolling you in early game,

Frankly, I have never seen the fun in either steamrolling without any sort of
challenge or being steamrolled without a chance to fight back. With 40 highly
armoured, exceedingly well armed staring troops, and the ability to crank out 20
more per turn with just one province worth of resources, I consider Hoburg so
unbalanced as to ruin this game.

By the way, the pipsqueeks should not get a shot every two turns. If the big
and strong Middle Age Ulm warriors need three turns to crank up their arbalests,
so should Hoburg and Kharam Dzu. And of course, if you scale down a piece of
armour in all three dimensions, you should scale down the protection. If you
are scaling only in two dimensions, you should increase encumbrance. Don't
even get me started on why a midget on a pig should not have the defense of a
superhuman on an unicorn, or why free summons of elite quality ruin balance.

But whatever. I will try to enjoy playing the Reborn Ulm, and hope I do not
have to pretend enjoying being rolled over by midgets. By the way, in my tests,
it takes about 3.5 times the money, and 8 times the resources for Ulm to field
a force that can beat the Hoburg WITHOUT taking free summons into account.
With free summons, it's worse.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, if you're already struggling to find enjoyment in playing a game before the game's even begun, why bother playing it in the first place?

Frankly, you're depressing me, and you're making BandarLover cry.

[LoloMo]

Tuidjy, would you like to trade nations with me? For sure if I see you next to me I WILL STEAMROLL all over you.

[BandarLover]

I swear I'm not crying. Something musta got in my eyes. Damn smoke.

Interesting side note (and WAAAAY off topic) I have no tears, which probably makes me the antichrist.

If Ich ever sobers up and can fix the minor flaws in this mod, we can get this thing started and see if Tuidjy's fears of rampant Hoburg steamrollers are founded.

[LoloMo]

And one more thing, I can't find the free summons with the Hoburgs. Where do they get that?

[Jazzepi]

BandarLover said:
I swear I'm not crying. Something musta got in my eyes. Damn smoke.

Interesting side note (and WAAAAY off topic) I have no tears, which probably makes me the antichrist.

If Ich ever sobers up and can fix the minor flaws in this mod, we can get this thing started and see if Tuidjy's fears of rampant Hoburg steamrollers are founded.



Yeah, I see this as a giant beta test. Let the steam rolling begin! I would suggest that if you aren't willing to accept a little unbalancedness since this is the first time all these mods have been put together in a MP environment, that you run as fast and as far from this game as quickly as possible.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

> Well, if you're already struggling to find enjoyment in playing a game before the
> game's even begun, why bother playing it in the first place?

1. Because I said that I would, and I would like to test the New Ulm.
2. Because I think that bringing up the perceived(?) unbalances before the game,
and proving that they exist during the game is the best way to end up with a
balanced nation.
3. Because I there is a chance that I will not start next to Hoburg.

> Frankly, you're depressing me, and you're making BandarLover cry.

Well, I am sure that BandarLover will extract his revenge if need be.

----------------

> Tuidjy, would you like to trade nations with me? For sure if I see you next
> to me I WILL STEAMROLL all over you.

No, because I want to play Ulm. And I know that you will roll me up, because
I could not find a counter although I played both side in a few games. A SC
works, but Ulm cannot really afford one.

----------------

> And one more thing, I can't find the free summons with the Hoburgs. Where
> do they get that?

One Officer of the Great Kitchen (or something) gets 5 soldiers of the line.
They are not completely free (the officer has upkeep, and so do they) but at
worst they cost 4g/0r to produce.

-----------------

> if you aren't willing to accept a little unbalancedness since this is the first
> time all these mods have been put together in a MP environment, that you run as
> fast and as far from this game as quickly as possible.

There is always time to run, especially when one is being chased. But before you
go looking for tar and feathers, why doesn't someone try to explain why it is
necessary that the hoburgs' equipment be so freakishly uber?

[LoloMo]

After further review, I am tending towards agreeing with Tuidjy. I would rank this version of Hoburgs somewhere around the vicinity of Helheim strength for the early game, providing of course that you optimize it for the blitz. Pretty strong compared to the vanilla game. Have no idea how it compares with the other mod nations though.

Some possible counters:

Early game counters: Trampling units, star fires, air shield bless, tangle vines

Mid game counters: Arrow fend

Late game counters: with only 6 hps, pretty much any type of battlefield wide damage will wipe the whole legion off. Foul vapors, Fire storm, poison cloud, fire cloud, etc. There are a few map spells that should be able to wipe off entire armies too.

[HoneyBadger]

Repeater crossbows make for good counters, too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

> Early game counters: Trampling units

I do not think that any of our nations have tramplers. And good luck getting
them in range. These are massed crossbows we are talking about.

> star fires,

No. Assuming the very best of luck, star fires will kill two midgets per shot.
This will not make a dent in the horde, and the mages will be in range.

> air shield bless

Very expensive to be effective, and works only on blessed. Furthermore, the
midgets are anything but easy to kill. Insane defense and heavy armour means
that in addition of the air bless you would need a fire bless. And an earth
bless, because the horde takes a long time killing.

> tangle vines

Very short range, no damage, and even with low strength, the midgets have a
decent chance to break out. There will be enough of them, unfortunately.

> Repeater crossbows make for good counters, too

Not really. He will be getting a kill with nearly every hit, you will be
getting a kill with about a quarter of yours. And his guys will be more
numerous, less expensive, will have a shield, and will outrange you. Good
luck getting anywhere as many hits, even with a shot every turn.

-----------------

In middle and late game, the midgets will not be a problem. They can do next
to nothing against thugs, and Evo5+ spells will eat them alive. But by that
time, they will have easily ruined 1-2 players.

And by the way, why is it that size one guys have higher strength and the same
health as humans? Dwarves this tough should be size two.

[lch]

I now have received pretenders from everybody yesterday except Sanguinia / Dragonninjaakira. I haven't heard back from him at all, does somebody have his email address? I'll PM him again and in case I don't get a reply I'll ask Morkilus to take over or clear the position for other players again. Another alternative would be to keep the Hoburgs out of the game and let LoloMo play Sanguinia, if he agrees and you're really that much concerned about them.

[LoloMo]

Yep, I can switch to Sanguinia if Dragonninjaakira doesn't play

[llamabeast]

I PMed dragonninjaakira's address to lch (hope you don't mind, DNA).

[HoneyBadger]

I'd really like to see the hoburgs make it into the game, even though they're supposed to be all-mighty. They don't have late-game goodness, and they're even shorter than my dwarves, so how bad could they be?

[lch]

I can sympathize with the argument that playing against Heim-like nations can be frustrating. So if Dragonninjaakira doesn't reply to my PMs and email by tomorrow, LoloMo can play Sanguinia. LoloMo, please send me a pretender for Sanguinia when you have some time to do that.

[Morkilus]

Need a player yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Size isn't as big of a factor as you may think, where strength is concerned. Bone and muscle mass-and more importantly, density are also big factors, and low gravity is actually an advantage.

Now if you're talking mass, they don't have it, but there's nothing that says a midget can't be very, very strong. For that matter, I'm one of the strongest people I've ever met, and I'm a big, tall guy at 6'2, but most of the other very strong people, including my wife who's around 5'4, have been short.

And if you read the stories about dwarves, not only do they live very active lifestyles doing labor intensive work, they're also superhumanly strong.

[Tuidjy]

They also weight at least as much as humans, and are shorter. This would make
them at least as wide, thus no more of them would fit in a tactical square. They
would be no easier to trample than humans, and they would eat no less.

I.e. dwarfs who are as strong and healthy as humans should be size two.

[HoneyBadger]

Nah, birds are extremely strong for their size/weight, housecats even more so. You're thinking in Earth/human terms. Dwarves are different-not wide, not tall, not big at all, just strong strong strong. And who says they have to weigh as much? Titanium's stronger than lead and weighs a whole lot less.

Dwarves just have a different internal architecture from humans.

And they can probably survive on a diet atleast partly made up of dirt-after all they evolved from earthworms, not monkeys-check your Norse mythology. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[lch]

Okay, since I haven't received anything from Dragonninjaakira and LoloMo sent me a pretender for Sanguinia I am going to create the final mod now without the Hoburgs and start the game. You'll get all the info via email as soon as it's up.

[HoneyBadger]

Can we atleast include the Hoburgs as an AI? I think that's handicap enough, and fair to everyone, and that way, we can still keep the spirit of introducing as many mods as possible.

By the way, I've been playing the Horror Scourge the past two days, they're really interesting. I wouldn't call them balanced, or entirely finished, but with some work they could be a great nation.

[Jazzepi]

I do not think we should include AIs. They simply get rolled in multiplayer, and whomever starts next to them gets a free new capital. They also can not conduct diplomacy, which is randomly bad.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

I don't know if AI hoburgs would get rolled as easily as most AIs, but I can see why you wouldn't want an AI in the mix.

As for the Hoburgs - I tested them quite briefly and made some balance changes, but I was rather hurried and was relying on the fact that they aren't /that/ different from the vanilla indy hoburgs. I think the problem is that those vanilla hoburgs actually have weird stats and are too good - I don't get where the ultra high Def comes from for instance. Nor do I understand why their crossbows are just as good. And the resource to size calculations still seem freaky to me, since size isn't even a real disadvantage.

This is stuff I can and probably will change in the next CBM Hoburg Kingdom version.

PS: Remember I didn't make the original mod in most cases. Only UR, JB and VH (sort of) are mine.

[lch]

Well, as said before I decided that we keep the Hoburgs out for this game and in the next game they will be in.

I am waiting for confirmation from HoneyBadger on his pretender he PM'ed me (he has lots of unused points left).


Cainehill said:
My fix was changing the weapon number for Dawn's Edge from 815 (shared with Dwarven Fire) to 829


I've changed it to 820 like Sombre now.



Cainehill said:
and changing

#weapon "Light Lance"
#weapon 56
#armor "Elven Leather Hauberk"

to :

#weapon "Light Lance"
#weapon 56
#weapon "Eldar Blade"
#armor "Elven Leather Hauberk"

on the Glade Runner.


I agree with Sombre that the Lance Rider should not receive another melee weapon type. He'd then have three melee attacks, it's pretty unreasonable that somebody can use a lance and a sword at the same time (let alone the additional shield), and the graphic only shows the lance and the shield, too. The other rider has a sword because one of his weapons is ranged only and the cavalry that (like Ulm) has a lance in addition to the morningstar has the lance as one-shot item only. I'd rather let these things stay like they are.

[HoneyBadger]

Technically speaking, a mounted lancer should fight with the lance until the lance is lost.

I would use a formula where there would be a 5% chance of losing or intentionally dropping the lance per combat round, increased by 5% every time the lance is used, and 10% every time the lance strikes an opponent.

The 10% should be accumulative-the rest wouldn't be. If anyone with a Length 1 weapon strikes the lancer though, the lance should automatically be lost.

After the lance is lost, a sword or a mace would be used.

[lch]

LoloMo, Cainehill, please send me the passwords for your pretender files via email, too. Thanks.
Reverend Zombie, the password you PM'ed me for Teutanion isn't working. If you forgot it, then please redo your pretender and send it to me via email together with the password again.

P.S.: I think the map might be a little big for 7 players. But that's your problem now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif
P.P.S.: Received a revised pretender from HB and the password from LoloMo and Cainehill. Only waiting on Reverend Zombie now.

[lch]

Okay, the game is up and running. I had to start the game on my local computer and then transfer the files to the server because somehow it was not possible to start the game remotely.

Everybody should have received an email from the server where it is detailed how to connect to the game. If you haven't, please check your spam folders and whitelist the sender!

The final mod that we are using is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?11b0zcymhem

[Jazzepi]

Okay, I logged in and took my turn. Good luck everyone.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

I'm subbing for Bandar until he can get his connection sorted out.

Sent my first turn.

[Cainehill]

New turn is up.

[lch]

Hmm, New Ulm and New Jomon have both a black color in the graphs. Can that be modded away?

[llamabeast]

It can, according to the modding manual.

[Sombre]

Yep, you can mod it. I just never bothered. Vaetti is black in the graphs too. You can still see which is which by toggling them on and off, just not at a glance.

I sent Sanguinia a penny for their poor dead god.

[lch]

Sanguinia should look out. With their god dead and their dying dominion, they need to preach or sacrifice blood slaves to stay alive, otherwise they're going to get dom killed. Teaches you to scout provinces before you attack them, or just wait one turn to see the troop types in the province you're attacking, huh?

[LoloMo]

Ha ha ha, yes, lesson learned! We picked the one province that contained 20 Heavy Cavalries of the armored type =)

[Tuidjy]

It would have not mattered. The curse of their bloody ways had doomed the
false Pretender even before he stepped out of his castle. I hope that the
population of Sanguinia throws off its oppressors before too many of them
fall to the vile bloodsuckers.

We of the reborn Ulm are sure that our righteous forces, together
with the noble knights of Teutanion and the fair elves of Sylvania
will cleanse the world from vampires, demons and pirates.

[Reverend Zombie]

Tuidjy said:
We of the reborn Ulm are sure that our righteous forces, together
with the noble knights of Teutanion and the fair elves of Sylvania
will cleanse the world from vampires, demons and pirates.



Yes, let's! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

To the 'coalition of good guys': Have we Vaetti mentioned recently how fundamentally different we are from pirates, demons and vampires? All we want to do is spread our unique brand of racial harmony across the land, that wolves, wolfkin, trolls and Gygjor might find a peaceful place to live in any region.

To the 'axis of evil' (or weevil, in the case of the pirates): There's plunder, slaves, blood and souls to be found in the lands of the wretched do gooders. Why should we be exiled to the wastes, the blasted isles, the bitter cold of the mountains? We are strong and the strong deserve what the weak cannot hope to protect!

-drums fingers-

Eeeexcellent.

[Jazzepi]

We just want to eat your childern. Send them to us, and we'll leave you alone.

Jazzepi

[LoloMo]

Yes, sweet juicy little morsels...

[HoneyBadger]

WHART'S WIR COMPARIN' PIRATES TEW VAMPIYAS AN DAEMONS??? ARRRR!!!

Besides, um...*cough* who says we're pirates? we're-er-lawful representatives of the Naval Maritime Authority. We have lawyers, we have documents, signed by the queen o'er land and sea herself. We tax our happy citizens in lawful ways. No blood-drinkers here, no sir!

Now sign right here, and here, and here, initial here...and sign here. Date it. Don't forget to date it.

I SAID DATE IT YE SCUM!!!!!

[Jazzepi]

I DEMAND PARLEY!

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

Our scouts today reported strange behaviour from the Elves of Sylvania. Their sacred and very ornate looking royal guard appear to be cloaked in some sort of miraculous wind which buffets incoming projectiles away. Coupled with their splendid armour, any would-be william tell or robin hood would be hard pressed to harm them. However the lighter fay folk, with little in the way of protection, were too eager to see off intruders to their beloved woods and advanced ahead of the guard, taking many casualties to arrow fire.

It is always sad to see fellow forest dwellers harmed in such a manner.

[Jazzepi]

Kharam Dzu, Hoist the Black Flag by Zepath (played by HoneyBadger) has 6 hours till stale.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Whoops, I got the nations in the game status page all wrong it seems, why didn't anybody tell me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[HoneyBadger]

I staled anyway...I'm just too damn busy lately, between my wife, my job, our house, our pets, etc etc etc. If anyone wants to take this one over, please be my guest. I hate not being able to commit to this, but life is just getting in the way lately.

[lch]

I guess I'm going to stop the game timer before Reverend Zombie / HoneyBadger are going to stale (again), then.

[Jazzepi]

Reverend is kinda out for a bit. I don't mind waiting for him to return though.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

I also vote to wait for him to return. It does not seem that he will
find a substitute, and I do not want him handicapped by stale turns.

And no, this has nothing to do with the fact that I consider his
nation a natural ally of Ulm. Well, maybe a tiny little bit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[lch]

Okay, the timer is off now.

[Jazzepi]

Thanks Ich, you're the man. Or the fly thing. Or was that icon just for perpetuality?

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

No, he's actually a fly thing.

[Sombre]

So what's going on in this game?

We're waiting for rev,.. what about HB? Any sub found?

[LoloMo]

I vote that we freeze the game until rev is back and we get a sub for HB.

Or we restart and fill up all the Mod nations and I swear I will never attack with my awake pretender again on the first turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[lch]

LoloMo said:
Or we restart and fill up all the Mod nations and I swear I will never attack with my awake pretender again on the first turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Nahhhh. Rev. is back on Monday or something and I already posted an application for a replacement player. I could try to look a little more, but maybe some of you know some player who would be interested in taking over, too?

[lch]

Morkilus is taking over Kharam Dzu. I forgot that he already said that he'll sub or take over a nation in case there is an opportunity for that...

So I'll turn on the timer again on Monday.

[Morkilus]

Arrrggh, me furry little hearties. I be in charge of this ship now.

[Tuidjy]

If the High Priesthood of Ulm ever had any doubts about the dwarves, that avatar
cinches it. Bloodsuckers, all of them... demons, vampires and pirates, what's
the bloody difference.

[Sombre]

That's not a bloodsucker in his av, it's just a bald man eating liquorice.

Yum yum.

[Tuidjy]

A pirate band attacked our forces. It was as dust under the Prophet's feet.
Any raiding around the Black Sea, any pirates advancing towards Ulm,
any disrespect to Lady Elena will be considered a declaration of war.

[Sombre]

The Vaettir would suggest that any who call the woodlands their home should be wary of the Ulmish war machine. To support their vast armies they are surely cutting down great swathes of forest land.

[Tuidjy]

Nonsense. We do not use charcoal. Not because we do not hold forest
provinces, but because we have long ago mastered mining coal.

We respect the land. Our lands are fertile, and Lady Elena holds no
no magic school higher than nature.

Furthermore, we have made the unilateral pledge not to attack any
nation that is not under the sway of evil overlords. Elves and
humans have nothing to fear from us.

On the other hand, Demons and Vampires cannot expect any mercy from
us, and the Pirates are being observed with suspicion...

As for the Vaettir, The Priesthood is divided. Racial harmony is
a worthy goal, but the recent proclamations are aimed at stirring
enmity between Ulm and our elven neighbors.

[Sombre]

The Vaettir are, as is commonly known, exiles. We know the horror of being driven from our homes by the foolish wars of the 'greater' races. We would hate to see the same fate befall any of our fellow forest dwellers through lack of attention to Ulm's military juggernaut.

Jomon has been known in the past to employ the ever hungry Gaki, which share a bond with our cousins the long passed Bakemono. We are consulting the Gygja for council in this matter - perhaps they are our cousins too, or mere mockeries of our race.

[Tuidjy]

We would not like to see to see any peaceful people driven away from their homes.
We have already stated quite clearly that we will not attack the elves or the
knights unprovoked. We would very much appreciate it if you were to stop
expressing doubts in the veracity of our proclamations.

The Reborn Ulm will not coexist with evil, and will certainly not engage in evil
actions itself. Vampires exist only by murdering and feeding on innocents. The
demon wives have enslaved their husbands, and turned them into an affront to any
sentient being. The miracle of the Aufklarung saved us from a similar fate, and
we consider it our destiny to stand in defense of anyone suffering under the
yoke of the undead or infernal forces.

We understand that our uncompromising stance places us in a vulnerable position.
We would rather die proud and true to our ideals than compromise with evil.

[LoloMo]

Ahh, but our thralls willingly submit themselves to us, just ask them! Be free of your worries, live a stress free and happy life, with no responsibilities at all! We will make all decisions for you. That's Nirvana!

[Morkilus]

Tuidjy said:
A pirate band attacked our forces. It was as dust under the Prophet's feet.
Any raiding around the Black Sea, any pirates advancing towards Ulm,
any disrespect to Lady Elena will be considered a declaration of war.



Lies! We attacked the province at the same time; it was just that your entire force was there where mine was more appropriate for the "indie" situation.

We would appreciate if the land in question, which is right next to our capitol, was ceded to us. Arghgg.

[Jazzepi]

I'm having trouble receiving the e-mails for this game's hosting schedule. I'm not sure if it's being caught in my spam filter or what x.x

Jazzepi

[lch]

No, the email services seem to really have gone haywire. A couple of days ago I received one for this game which was dated 03/26/06, then two of them for other games went through okay, while turn notifications for the Newbies game didn't get delivered anymore, too.

I'll try to fix that ASAP, but I really have no idea what might be the problem here. The only thing I can do is to switch the way that I deliver the mails.

[Jazzepi]

Okay, thanks for the effort Ich http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'll just keep checking back on the game. I'm really enjoying this nation.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Maybe you should send out an e-mail warning players that the notifications might be off. I'd hate to see someone stale because of it.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Jazzepi said:
Maybe you should send out an e-mail warning players that the notifications might be off.


I have reset the timer for the games which are using one and resent the turn notification mails for those games.

The company which I used to deliver the emails booted the account from their servers with no apparent reason, I have now re-registered and it seems to work okay. Did you get the mail?

[Jazzepi]

Yess'ums.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

Guys, I guess I am really confused as to who is playing whom. I'm playing Ulm,
or rather Ulm Reborn, as I like to call it. I know Cainehill has Sylvania, and
I think Reverand Zombie controls Teutanion, but I am having trouble identifying
the other players. Is the list on the first post of this thread accurate?

[Jazzepi]

I believe Ich said it was incorrect.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Sombre took over the Vaetti from BandarLover and Morkilus took over the pirates from HoneyBadger. I didn't update the first post, but the stats page is accurate.

[LoloMo]

We are the severely misunderstood Sanguinia Vampires. We just want peace and happiness for all inhabitants of NeoXekinima. Is a little blood too high a price to pay for a life without war, jealousy, hate, envy, and greed? Just ask a few few of our lifetime members. The answer is a resounding Nay! They give blood willingly and lovingly to their benevolent masters!

[Tuidjy]

> Lies!

We grow tired of being accused of lying. Not one word has been uttered by
the Priesthood that was not factually true.

> We attacked the province at the same time;

Your troops entered the province after ours. It may have been during the same
month, but weren't our soldiers rested from the ceremonies of the power transfer,
and weren't our battle lines drawn?

> it was just that your entire force was there where mine was more appropriate
> for the "indie" situation.

These are not only lies, these are grave insults to Ulm's defenders. Implying
that one task force, one that you heavily outnumbered, and one that does not
even include all of our famous heroes is our "entire force"? It may have been
enough to wipe one of your raiding band, and it is certainly capable of teaching
you another lesson or two, but you will not live to see Ulm's "entire force", you
insolent pirates!

> We would appreciate if the land in question, which is right next to our
> capitol, was ceded to us. Arghgg.

You dare to lay any claim on a province where peasants worship Lady Elena, and
you plan on tearing down one of her temples?!

Blasphemy!

Every man of Ulm has been ordered to attack you on sight. No matter what the
odds, no matter who the members of the squads are. Scouts, priests, unsupported
archers and unequipped penitents, they all will fight you until the pirate
banner flies no more.

You have been declared an abomination unto Lady Elena.

[Sombre]

Makes you wonder who'll be next, with Ulm gathering such a mighty force of 'defenders' and possessing such natural 'enthusiasm'.

[Tuidjy]

Why the hostility, child of Freya? It is clear that you are agitating the nations
of the world against Ulm Reborn, but what are you hoping for?

We do not hide our distaste for the forces of evil. No demon or vampire will
expect mercy from us. I doubt they need any more reasons to hate us.

As for the nations of Sylvania and Teutanion, they know they have nothing to fear
from us. Our Priesthood has examined them, and found them pure and noble. We
very much doubt that your words will sway them into attacking another nation of
the Light while abominations of Hellfire and Blood are loose in our world.

All you are doing is antagonizing Ulm Reborn, and insulting the purity of its
defenders. It seems that you want to place yourself on the side of darkness.
Well, you have not done so yet, so there is still hope that you will not be
found wanting when judged.

[Jazzepi]

Does someone have a link to the status page? o.o I can't find it anywhere in this thread.

Jazzepi

[lch]

http://valhalla.techno-mage.com/stats/stats.php?game=NeoXekinima

You get the link in each of the turn notifications via email. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Jazzepi]

Which I then promptly delete!

Ich are you not even playing in this game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Jazzepi

[lch]

I'd love to if I wouldn't foolishly try to play five or something late games at the same time. Would you like to take over one or two of those?

[Sombre]

Because of serious technical problems I think I'm going to end up staling this turn, if I haven't already.

I won't be able to submit a turn until about 24 hours from now.

If you want to wait, you can, if not, staling a turn hopefully won't be a total disaster for the Vaetti.

[Jazzepi]

lch said:
I'd love to if I wouldn't foolishly try to play five or something late games at the same time. Would you like to take over one or two of those?



I probably could! Contact me privately with what games you need to get out of.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Sombre said:
I won't be able to submit a turn until about 24 hours from now.


You haven't been stalling. The game hosted about 8 hours ago and you have 40 hours left to do your turn, so you should be good.

Jazzepi, I'm going to get back to you on that, perhaps you'll soon wish you never made that offer... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Jazzepi]

Cainehill Sylvania Missed a turn
Morkilus Kharam Dzu Missed a turn

Both staled last turn, I think they're both heading for another one.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

Doh. That makes New Ulm's crusade all the more effective.

[Tuidjy]

The last month on which the dwarves moved, all their existing forces were
involved. One army was drawn to the Sylvania border, to be surrounded the
following month. The second force was intercepted as it attempted to strike
toward our capital. The third force tried to break the siege of their capital,
and was destroyed. The only survivor was their pretender. Her uncanny
resemblance to Lady Elena stayed the hand of our warriors, and she was
allowed to escape to the south.

There was NOTHING for them to do anymore. All three forces had been
reduced, why would they attack again? The dwarves have fallen prey
to despair, their warriors flee as our forces march on, and their
peasantry flocks to our priests. Their mountain citadel is the last
refuge of the failed regime, and in time, it too will fall. I guess
their military leader felt he had nothing to contribute.

As for the elves, we consider them our friends. We regret that they seem
have to slipped back to their hereditary ennui, but we will certainly not
take advantage of this. We would be happy if they elected a new general.

----------

And in any case, it appears that a new dwarven leader has emerged.

[lch]

Jazzepi said:
Cainehill Sylvania Missed a turn


Morkilus played his turn. Does anybody know what happened to Cainehill? I will play the current turn for him, I guess.

[Tuidjy]

Hmm... Is capitain Svalfangr supposed to transform, on death, into a size
six, 100HP, 18 defense etherial berserker with a +5 fear aura, area curse,
area death and area decay?! Oh and magic resistance 18, just so that there
is no weakness there, either.

There is no description, so I do not know whether this is a bug or a feature.
In any case, that was QUITE the nasty surprise. I did not expect the dwarves
to have much of a chance before this, but now I am not sure I have a chance.

---

Too bad that the description of the Bringer of Change was missing. This is a
very good idea, and shows great attention to detail on the part of the modder.
I just wish that I had been given a chance to appreciate the joke as it happened.
Now give me a few hours, to figure out what the Priesthood has to say about this.

Speaking of this, are backups are kept of all turns? I wish I
had been saving mine. This game is great for a AAR.

[lch]

Bah, I didn't get to play the turn for Cainehill in time since I got busy. Because some players already played their turns I won't roll back the game now, because that always leads to complications. I'll send Cainehill an email and ask what's up.

[lch]

Tuidjy said:
Hmm... Is capitain Svalfangr supposed to transform, on death, into a size
six, 100HP, 18 defense etherial berserker with a +5 fear aura, area curse,
area death and area decay?! Oh and magic resistance 18, just so that there
is no weakness there, either.


No, he isn't supposed to. But his parrot is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Take note of the description texts.

[Sombre]

The parrot doesn't hang around. He just flips out and delivers the whomp for one battle.

Poor crusty cap'n.

In others news, knights from the south have stormed onto an isle we Vaetti were attempting to liberate from local despots. We are concerned - from what we have experienced humans appear to be an aggressive and expansive race.

[Tuidjy]

If the Priesthood of Ulm Reborn needed any more proof of the infernal nature of the
dwarven nation, if would have gotten it last month. Once again, ignoble pirates
raided peaceful villagers who believe in the Lady Elena. We are sad to admit that
as never before, the raid was successful. The local militia had no trouble
dispatching the raiders, as it had done twice before. But this time, as one of the
captains fell, a horrible demon appeared. Despite the best efforts of the brave
villagers, and despite being gravely injured and crippled, the demon managed to
rout the defenders, and offered the province to its worshipers.

As all infernal creatures, it was cowardly. Rather than stay and face the holy
hammers of our paladins next month, it ran away to some hell or other. We hope
that now, when it is very clear that their leaders have consorted with infernal
forces, the dwarves of Kharam Dzu lay down their arms and let the Light of Lady
Elena in their hearts. We urge all soldiers still enrolled in the dwarven military
to simply retreat when they see an Ulm detachment marching towards them.

We would also like to inquire whether an unified command still exists in Kharam
Dzu. Will their remaining armies be left to fend for themselves, or will they
be turned over to A Iocal commander?

[Sombre]

Let it be known that this month the ignoble and aggressive human brutes of Teutanion, clearly seeking to bring violence to the peaceful woodlands and mountains of the north, did declare a crusade against the Vaettir.

We can only hope their expansionist nature and ranks of prowling heathen knights are noted by our common neighbours. Along with the assault launched by New Ulm on the seafaring Dzu it seems the so called 'pious' human nations leave little room for others in their perfect world - a dark place of petty feudal squabbles and religious tyranny.

[Tuidjy]

> it seems the so called 'pious' human nations leave little room for others
> in their perfect world - a dark place of petty feudal squabbles and
> religious tyranny.

While we do have no information on what may have prompted a war in the East,
we would like to point out that no child of Ulm has lifted a hand against
his brother since the days of the Aufklarung, and that Sylvania and Ulm
have peacefully coexisted ever since they learned of each other's existence.
Thus the feudal squabbles accusation is clearly unfounded.

As for religious tyranny, we do not think that any priest should remain aloof
when plans are made to demolish a temple of his Goddess. Yes, with the help
of an infernal creature, the pirates of Kharam Dzu did eventually burn that
temple, but they will pay for this with the very existence of their nation.
We hope that their fate will be a deterrent to others.

[Sombre]

Just a heads up - the Vaettir are currently under attack from both Teutanion and Jomon. We will fight to the last to protect our new home.

[lch]

Okay, since people have asked a number of times and since I'll be vacationing from 10th to 24th of Aug, I think I'll prepare the second mod nations game this weekend. Hoburgs will be in in case Sombre gets to balance them out a bit more. Those that are already playing in this game are welcome to participate in the next game, too, and maybe switch nations with somebody else. If you have suggestions for your current nation (it's a bit early for that, I know) or just want to give your feedback on them then write something about them in this thread.

[llamabeast]

Ooh, I think I'd better not join this as I have two vacations coming up. Sounds good though, glad to hear there's demand for it. Hopefully the one after that will have the Tomb Kings in it.

[lch]

The second mod nations game will be more or less like the current one, with some changes since we all learned something from it. I'll probably use another, but similar, map.

In case the Warhammer mod nations or other nations get some cleanup, I'll be happy to start games featuring them, too. It prolly is quite difficult to balance them out properly, as can be seen in this game which already received CBM balancing.

[Jazzepi]

I haven't actually fought any big battles yet, so I have no idea what my nation does ;P

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Oh, and please, please sign me up for the other nation mod. I'd love to play tomb kings if they're in there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

Abandoned by their infernal allies, the last warriors of Kharam Dzu laid down
arms last month. Tara the Enchantress ran away from Lady Elena's Prophet and
his paladins, knowing that she could not expect mercy from him a second time.

The pirate flag flies no more.

But not all dwarves were as lucky as those who joined the followers of Lady
Elena. In the last days of the pirate nation, undead hordes led by bloodthirsty
vampires invaded the weakened southern regions of Kharam Dzu. They slaughtered
the local defenders, and raised them as soulless abominations. They pillaged the
provinces they occupied, until even the humblest peasants started rioting. A
giant wyrm was seen slithering near the wall of a fortified city bursting with
refugees from the surrounding lands.

Ulm Reborn cannot remain blind and deaf to the plight of the innocent and
defenseless. This month, the armies of Ulm were ordered to liberate the former
dwarven lands from the vampire tyrants. Scared of our righteous forces, the
cowardly abominations ran away to hide in their dark castles. Even the giant
wyrm put away the pretense of divinity and dragged itself away.

But all this will avail them little. They've been declared an abomination unto
Lady Elena, and their days are numbered.

[Sombre]

In our last clash with the Jomonese invaders we left many dead, but as we buried our own fallen with heavy hearts and tended to the woods, torn by the claws of foul Nekoni we realised the cost of defending our land against such powerful foes might be the very forests themselves. Our home. Our kind.

Our hope lies with our neighbours, the elves of Sylvania, who also call the woodlands their home. Together we might hold off the rampaging demons of Jomon.

What do you say, people of Sylvania? Will we defend the forests together, or burn alone? We Vaetti would be willing to enter an alliance with you for as long as we are both under threat.

[LoloMo]

Ah yes, the virtuous Dwarves of Ulm. Of course they neglect to mention that as their first act of "liberation" of the "humble peasants" is to slaughter scores of these very same peasants. The innoccent defenseless farmers were summarily executed by the high and mighty armoured knights on their high horses. The Order of Saguinia applauds these "mighty" acts of "bravery" from the "oh so virtuous" Ulm.

We regret to inform these Dwarven Oppressors that our concern is the welfare of our hard working farmers, and as such we are ordering their swift evacuation in the face of the horrible destruction inflicted upon their hapless villages.

[Tuidjy]

We have seldom seen such twisting of the truth! But what can one expect from
those who live on the life force and suffering of others?

Yes, our knights did execute some villagers. But executions were far from
random. When our forces entered the provinces in question, they were aghast at
the rioting and destruction. Corpses were littering the landscape, the unrest
had reached levels that made any production impossible, and there were no
supplies to be had for any price. The history of the Civil War is part of the
education of every commander of Ulm. We have never engaged in pillaging
ourselves, but we recognize the signs!

And in the middle of this vampire-made Hell, some rather peculiar villagers were
strutting around, helping Sanguine Reeves prey on the innocent. These
vampire collaborators were in the best of moods, cheerful and confident despite
the desolation around them.

Even if we had wanted to let these immoral wretches live, they did not give us
the chance. They threw themselves under our warhorses' hooves, and died.
We guess they feared the justice of their former neighbors, whom they had
betrayed to the vampires of Sanguinia.

We are happy to report that after just one month under our rule, the rioting has
greatly diminished, no one is starving, and the grateful population has taken
Lady Elena into their hearts. They have noticed the undead horde moving north,
and are joining the local militia. Your soulless minions and cowardly harpies
will be given a chance to appreciate the difference between the enthralled,
ragged scum that was policing the lands under your rule, and the well-trained,
well-equipped militia, who defends it now.

[Tuidjy]

I'm definitely up for a second game. This time I would like to play someone
evil. I have never tried blood magic, but it may be time... Can I place
a tentative claim on Sanguinia?

By the way, I think that it would be a very good idea to make a couple of
nation specific pretenders. Nothing overpowering, just flavour.

For example, for Ulm Reborn, I would like to see the first person who felt the
Aufklarung as a choice. Just copy the Enchantress or another existing human, and
give him/her an Ulmian steed. Skill in astral/earth, an appropriate description,
cost to reflect the path and steed, et voila!

For Sanguinia, we need a master vampire, that is, the Sanguini kind. Non-flying,
non-stealthy, some armour, maybe a horse. If you want to model him after a
blood drake (I love the picture) you can even give him the name of a former Ulm
hero, and tell about his fall and subsequent flight from the Aufclarung.

Something I would like to suggest for the dwarves, now they are out of the
game, is a real crossbow. Repeater crossbows have their place, but the
whole war, I knew that I outranged them enough to fire at them with impunity,
and I think that after a battle or two, the stunties would have figured the
problem themselves. Give them them option to field pavise crossbowmen.
Arbalest, tower shield, one shot per three turns, to account for hiding
to rewind the mechanism. High parry, high penalty to defense, to make it
useless for hand to hand combat. Of course, the author may think that this
is not in character for the pirates.

Anyway. I know it is too early to discuss balance, but I wanted to help the
second game.

[Sombre]

Unfortunately the author of Kharam Dzu has gone and vanished. Just so you know.

[Tuidjy]

With heavy hearts, we notify the nations of the light that the future looks dark.
A nightmare that we believed long gone has returned to our world. The Civil War
rages again. A Heretical sect of the Black Templars flew Ulm during the
Aufklarung. We believed them destroyed. Unfortunately, they have found refuge
at the court of Sangvinia's vampires, and flourished.

This month five squads, a devil's dozen each, rode against one of our provinces.
It shames us to say, there is nothing we can throw in their path. These beasts,
have surrendered their human nature to become a mix of demon and vampire. Their
wounds close by themselves, they suck the life from their opponents, their armour
is uncomprehensible, better than anything even great mages can craft. Due to
their unnatural equipment and their inhuman abilities, they are able to kill even
our heaviest sacred infantry in one swing, and defend even against the most
skilled attacks with ease. They do not tire, and no mundane means can even slow
them down.

We cannot field enough mages or priests to stop a horde of that magnitude.
Furthermore, if nearly seventy of them could be fielded against us, many more are
being trained every month. Ulm is doomed. The ghost of the Civil War has caught
up with us. For the sake of the light, start preparing to fight to this menace.
It will be at least an year before the Vampires infest our numerous castles. We
hope the time we will buy will allow you to prepare. It is too late for us.

[lch]

The thread for the second mod nations game has been created, see you there. I already added Sombre, Tuidjy and Jazzepi to the list because they expressed their interest in playing.

[LoloMo]

The superstitious wailers in Ulm must have been dreaming again. There has been no pitched battle between Ulm and Sanguinia. There has been a retaking of one of the three villages previously unceremoniously and sneakily acquired from us by Ulm. The dozen or so troops encountered certainly can not be considered by any stretch of the imagination as sacred or elite.

But perhaps Ulm has seen their future in their dreams. If so, then we advise them to leave these lands and seek the comfort of their mothers in their own lands.

Protestations of weakness while you break Khazad Dumms back with thousands of cowardly crossbowmen and steel encased riders have been witnessed before, and you will not be believed this time.

[Jazzepi]

Guys, I have to confess I've lost all interest in this game. I *REALLY* hate this map, the layout made it impossible to defend the eastern side of my empire. Also, New Jomon is [censored] useless against archers. Not a single shield, and their calvary is morale 9. Twice I've seen them get to the archers, and THEN route. No access to air magic for arrow fend. I also built a crappy multipath pretender who is still sleeping, in retrospect I should have taken worse scales to get him to awake.

I'd be happy to set myself to AI. Or try to look for a sub, I guess. I just staled my last turn because of my complete antipathy towards playing in this game. A lot of different factors all adding up together. The awful map layout. The positioning of the races. The fact that I got stuck dead in the middle of a non wrap around map, with a kingdom *full* of mountains and forests turning the mapmove 3 armies I have into worsethenUlm garbage, and my placement next to Sylvania. I wished that Sombre would have just taken my stupid NAP instead of saying "Oh we have bigger prey" so that I could have rushed Sylvania when I had the chance before they got this ungodly horde of crappily blessed guys + archers.

Oh well, my bad.

Jazzepi

[LoloMo]

haha, don't give up yet! Or the Evil Do Gooders will Triumph!

Sanguinia is in an even worse position. Our lands are devoid of life, income, or gems. We have to scratch a living from barren sands. Our Great Pretender Wyrm got killed on turn 1. It was only after turn 10 or so that I learned that I have to do blood sacrifice to spread my dominion hahahaha. But we will extract every bit of pain from the Evil Twin Do Gooders the Wretched Ulms and the Doity Elves!!!

[Sombre]

Pure OOC:

Sub or AI is up to you, try to let us know either way.

I agree the map has problems, but like I said before, other people have suffered plenty from it. I for example have largely low province pops with either mountain, forest or both on them. They didn't even yield that many gemsites.

I'm also playing with the handicap of Bandarlover's production/turmoil scales, which are absolutely not what Vaettiheim, a nation with basically no resource overheads, should have. Check out my income on the score graphs - it sucks and has always sucked.

Before you attacked me and got jumped by Sylvania, you had in my opinion the second strongest overall position in the game, with swathes of territory, a friendly Teutanion guarding your back, great income and large armies. I'm not 100% sure why sylvania was so effective against you (your troops were on the other side of your territory?) but neither I nor they expected them to actually beat you.

As for the nation itself - It's based on LA Jomon, obviously it isn't going to be rocking any shields. The morale problems with the samurai are also a feature of the race. Your armies of Red Nekoni and Vassal Cav were clearly very effective in expanding, allowing you to leap forward and become the largest territory holder with the biggest income. No air magic is sort of the price you pay to have solid DEWFB in the late era.

Anyway, if you aren't having fun, it's best to leave. Don't want anyone to feel forced to play, that'd be silly.

Before you go, do you have any suggestions for changes to any of the mods?

[Morkilus]

Huh. I thought I was losing this war. By the way, where are my allies! WTF!

I did have one very surprising victory, where I was all but beaten and the coward cavalry took off. I guess you need to mix them with some demons or something.

[Sombre]

Whaddya mean where are we? We don't have access to Jomonese territory to attack it, apart from the raiding group which came through - that we attacked, smashed up and routed this turn.

Bear in mind we have to devote resources to defending against Teutanion aggression as well.

If you want us to do something specific such as travelling through provinces you currently control, you'll have to let us know.

[Tuidjy]

Today, the Kingdom of Ulm mourns the noble knights who laid their lives at the
gates of Kharam Dzu. Yes, there were some defeatists who urged a withdrawal to
our homelands. But the Priesthood felt that it was our responsibility to shield
the world from the former Black Templars who now call themselves Blood Drakes.

We did not abandon the poor dwarfs of Kharam Dzu to the demonic beasts. Instead,
our armies met the hordes of Sanguinia, and the battle shook the very walls of the
mountain fortress. The losses on both sides were staggering, but eventually,
the cowardly vampires and the corrupted Blood Drakes fled the field, allowing their
soulless minions to be finally laid to rest.

But our struggle against the bloodthirsty vampires is only beginning. Many of
the former dwarf villages are still suffering under the yoke of Sanguinia.
Deadly taxes and unholy blood rites are decimating the population. But let the
innocent and defenseless take heart! Our forces will soon be moving south, to
end the bloody reign of terror. Our policies will be no different from those in
the already liberated lands. No taxes until prosperity is restored and no
patrolling until those rioting against the vampires have had a chance to return
to their homes! Of course, this amnesty does not apply to those who joined the
oppressors' militia and turned on their brothers.

[Jazzepi]

Wow.

I hate this race. They're so [censored] useless. This has to be the fourth battle that I've lost when the calvary are ONTOP OF THE ARCHERS and then route.

Jazzepi

[Morkilus]

OOC: Did you see that the Phoenix Guards had fear? That and the various clouds they were under might have something to do with it.

IC: NEENER NEENER

[Tuidjy]

I am having trouble connecting. I tried supplying the numerical IP address, but
it does not seem to help. Can you please make sure that no one stalls?

As for the map, I have to admit that I like it. I did not get a single straight
grassland province, and my numerous cavalry troops are reduced to infantry speed,
but I love the choke points and familiar locations. Of course it helps that my
scales are very good for income (order/production/life) and that Ulm is notoriously
resource hungry. But as a rule, I like complex maps. Parganos is one of my
favorites, for example.

By the way, what is a good place to discuss the mods? I would also like to reserve
the elves if there is another, third mod game in the works.

[Morkilus]

Do you mean a place to discuss the mods in relation to each other, or themselves? I would think the original mod thread would be good for the latter. By the way, Google does a much better job at searching the forums than the "forum search" does. This game is pretty fun in that I have NO idea what to expect from some nations. I haven't even seen any Teutanian or Sanguinian troops, and don't really know what else to expect from Jomon.

If we're talking about relative balance, I have no idea how the dwarves were supposed to compete. Yeah, they had a really bad start... but there seems to be no depth to the nation at all, and their troops suuuuuuck.

[Sombre]

I'm playing the dwarves in the second mod game and currently I'm doing ok, but I can't seem to escape constant losses due to lack of armour. Anyway I boosted them a little bit from the version used in this game.

If you want to talk about the balance of the nations in the mod game as they stack up to each other, I suggest making a new thread in the mods and maps forum.

If you want to comment specifically about flavour, abilities, units etc for a single nation then go to the original thread made for that mod. You can find it by using the mod list in the maps and mods forum.

If you want to talk about the pricing and overall balance of a single nation, go to the CBM mods thread, which is on the first page. All the nations in this mod game used the CBM balance versions, which were made by me.

[Reverend Zombie]

Unable to connect.

[LoloMo]

same here, I think Ich is on vacation for one more week.

[Tuidjy]

Well, I guess this puts the game on hold for a week. In all honesty, I welcome
the break. Lately, I have been having a hard time finding the time to play.
My company is moving a manufacturing site, and after our IT guy at the new
site quit, my boss decided that my department should just 'tough it out'
until we finish the move...

[Sombre]

It appears to be working now.

[Tuidjy]

How dare you!

At a time when Ulm is fighting the demonic shock cavalry of Sangvinia, how does
Jomon dare to bring a demonic horde to Ulm's borders?! Since our very first
communications, we were very absolutely clear as to the consequences of any
demonic troops being brought to our attention.

All those serving Jomon have been declared an abomination unto Lady Elena!

[Jazzepi]

Pfff.

Jazzepi

[LoloMo]

I second the Pfff.

[Sombre]

Pfff is a typical demon sound. As if further proof were needed.

[Nikolai]

> Pfff is a typical demon sound. As if further proof were needed.

You are looking for a job in the Inquisition, or wanting to tease the Priesthood? It's not as if Ulm looks to need much excuse to declare abominations left and right!

[Tuidjy]

Actually, Sombre is very much correct. "Pfff" is exactly the sound demons make
when a quarrel embeds itself in their gut. Our soldiers have become quite used
to the sound. And, of course, by that time, no further proof is needed.

[Jazzepi]

Alright, I'm going AI. I'll remember to avoid pacts with people who use roleplaying as a pretext to ignore them at their convenience, not that it matters much.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

Hold a freaking second! I have every single piece of correspondence ever
exchanged between the two of us. I sent you four messages:

In the first I agreed to three turns of peace, during which you would observed.
I said I would be looking for demons, undead, and blood slaves.

In the second I agreed to a three turn non-aggression pact, and once again, I
stipulated that I will not tolerate unholy activity. I asked for clarification
on one point of the agreement. You did clarify it.

In the third, I spelled out the terms, and twice I stated "We will attack if we see
demons, undead, or sacrificial slaves." I explicitly asked you to return the
signed treaty, i.e. to confirm my terms. You did not answer that message.

In the fourth, after seeing Dog Soldiers in the castle near my borders, I
pretended being unsure whether they were "the members of a strangely named
regiment, or unholy crossbreeds". I stated that I was worried that you had not
returned my previous message, that Ulm "will exit the treaty in the most
honorable manner", and would still give you the three months that the treaty
called for. I had no plans to attack, but by no means was I bound by any
treaties after those three turns.

So, Hell no, I am not ignoring any treaties! Even if you had confirmed the
treaty, which you did not, even if I had not exited it correctly, which I did,
you had the audacity to bring demons to my freaking borders, which was a
violation of the terms of the treaty, and which I made damn clear in every single
message.

I, the player, demand an apology.

[Jazzepi]

Oh no, those are definitely the terms of the treaty. It's really silly though, if you look at Jomon's makeup every caster, almost all commanders, and the high morale units are demons/undead. There's no possible way for me to even come close to abiding by the terms of it. Since I'm breaking it all the time, you might as well have a free "breaking of the treaty card" ready.

Also, I didn't bring those units to you borders, you attack Sylvania and happened to stumble upon them. You ignored the fact that I had "dogmen" commanders earlier during the establishment of the treaty, and offered not to push your scouts any deeper. That seems a fairly trite convenience to me. I mean, really, if you're trying to be uber anti-demon/undead/blood sacrifice I think it is your duty to investigate with that, and other, scouts instead of just leaving it up in the air.

But however you want to play your nations is fine, and I did agree to the terms, which in my opinion you know, and I know, I could never abide by simply by the makeup of Jomon's recruitable units. I didn't mean to offend you personally, but I will be much more wary of making pacts with people who are heavy role players. I'm here to play the game itself. Role playing is not high on my list, at all.

Admittedly pretext is a bad word to use. I don't think there was any subterfuge in Tuidjy's treaty, but invariably the reason the treaty was broken is for role playing, and not strategic, reasons.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

Well, I had announced that I considered Ulm at war with the demons very early.
I was surprised you were asking for a treaty, but technically, what did the
priests know about Jomon? They had not seen demons, the troops we'd seen
happened to be mercenaries and humans, and you were being peaceful. I thought it
made sense that they would accept. Afterwards, when the scouts noticed the Dog
soldiers, it was only player knowledge that told me they were demons. I thought
the treaty was untenable, and I exited it, following the terms to the letter.

As for he final 'pretext', yes, I was moving east, but you did bring demons at my
original borders. By that time, I had decided to invade, but remember that the
treaty was no longer current. Furthermore, I had just discovered that Ulm's
national summons are undead... and I discovered it by summoning them, so the
priests could only object to demons with a straight face.

I am usually not a roleplayer. I am making an effort in this game, because I
love the mod... but I do not use roleplaying as an excuse to lie and cheat. In
any case, now that the misunderstanding is cleared, it's time to get down to
business. And business for Ulm is mostly killing demons. It is amazing how much
of that we have been doing, lately.

By the way, do not feel bad about this game. It's hard to survive as the central
power. The only thing has worked for me is to pair the neighbors two by two and
start a war with half of them, letting the other half have more than they
deserve. You pulled it off perfectly with Vaettiheim and Teutianon, and Ulm was
constantly at war anyway. The elves were your downfall. We are only bringing
the last nail to the coffin. And it looks like a crossbow quarrel :-)

[Jazzepi]

I seriously don't think that Jomon has any game against Sylvania, they're just far too vulnerable to the massed archers thing + fear shock troops. Despite getting my butt wooped on a strategic level by Sylvania's raiders, even at a tactical level I NEVER won a single decisive battle despite mixing morale 17 demons with the calavary, and bringing along priests to spam sermon of courage.

For about the 10th time this game I managed to attack Sylvania in their capital. Killed their god. Had the entire force surrounded by an overwhelming force of calvary and demons, and they just broke.... again. It's soooo frustrating.

The low morale thing + lack of shields makes me really scratch my head on how you're suppose to play this nation against massed archers. You just get abused from afar so badly by the time you close your lower morale forces you to route.

I'm playing the regular LA Jomon in another game and it's extremely refreshing. The high morale + sermon of courage + fighting in friendly dominion gave me calvary with 17 morale against Abysian humanbred infantry with 9 morale. Despite charging through a horde of arrow fire, and fireballs the calvary and infantry didn't have a single squad break.

So, basically, I think Sombre made this mod if that's correct? Something has to give with this whole morale deal, it's just too bad to play it the way it is right now. I would shudder to think what would happen to New Jomon against a nation with panic-spam. Here are my suggestions.

1. You give them real chaff troops. Not the extremely low morale ones they have right now. Give them troops that are "equivalent" to the lobo guards that Ry'leh has. They need to be mindless. It's okay if they still have low protection, no shields, just as long as you have something to catch arrows while the unprotected low morale calvary flank. I think this would be the best, and most thematic, suggestion. It's easy to see why the enslaved samurai thrulls would be mindless. You could say that the calvary represent an elite group of Jomon warriors that are not mindless, but just enslaved.

2. Give the nation access to air for fog warrior and arrow fend.

3. Give the nation a level 3 priest to recruit, preferably one with flying, so that they can cast fanaticism by giving that level 3 priest the rank of prophet.

4. Give them access to a troop type with shields.

I'm not the best player in the world, but I think I'm OKay, but these are the suggestions I have.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

To Tuidjy: To the Ulmish they aren't undead in the sense of reanimated corpses or ghouls or vampires, they're effectively angelic/spirit beings given physical form by the White Priests. They're as holy and righteous as the xenophobic supercharged crusaders (Reborn guard), terminator like portable brainwashing/gulag/killing machines (Anchorites) and heretic torturing inquisitors (black priests). As a deeply religious nation, Ulm Reborn turn hypocrisy into an art form, so deeming enemy undead as unholy shouldn't be a problem for them.

Attacking Sylvania out of nowhere is also entirely justifiable for Ulm - they can happily be roleplayed as an /extremely/ aggressive nation.


Jazzepi: Thanks for your suggestions. Let me go through them bit by bit.

1. I could indeed give them some mindless samurai, that's a good suggestion and fits the theme, so I'll think about what I can do. They're getting mindless undead handmaidens in the next version, which they will be able to amass in quite some quantity a low level death magic spell. They will be relatively good units too, better than ghouls/skellies etc. Let me say at this point I don't understand your constant emphasis on the cavalry - you keep complaining about how awful they are, but you continued to use them as your main unit. They are supposed to have a morale issue, it's a feature of the race - they are cheap considering how much damage they can do - if you can stop them from routing they are a bargain. If you can't,.. well you might want to build something else. If the other options (the thrall infantry etc) are no good, well that needs to be mentioned/changed.

2. They already have BFEWD in the late era and all at level 2+ guaranteed. They'll have to find another way around problems vs missile fire. You can't always have a perfect answer to everything.

3. A flying level 3 priest just because their troops have a morale issue? They just aren't that religious, so they aren't getting above level 2. They will have some more and different maiden commanders in the next version though, including a blood hunter and a cheap on-foot seducer/spy.

4. If I gave them shields they wouldn't be very jomonese.

I'm unsure as to how Jomon Broken stacks up vs Jomon. I believe they have more powerful magic, but clearly they lack the higher quality general troops and the longbows. If they are significantly weaker, I am completely willing to improve the nation in an effort to improve their balance, but I'm not going to add shields or air magic or remove the lack of morale or give them level 3 flying priests because that's a matter of flavour and theme more than balance.

Of course it's possible that some of Sylvania's units are overpowered - the sacred is currently looking a bit too good to me, but they have their own weaknesses. I agree that Jomon Broken doesn't match up too well against them, but as long as it isn't a hopeless wash, that doesn't bother me much.

[Jazzepi]

2. Sorry, I should have been more clear. No no, I wasn't suggesting you give them air in addition to what they have already, just in replacement of something else. You could remove one of the girls, and add a "hanged girl" and associate her with air.

3. It doesn't have to be flying. It would just be nice to have a priest that doesn't move slow than most of the units. Again, this was only a suggestion on how you could provide them with a way to deal with low morale. If it fits into the flavor or not, that's up to you. I believe, and I could be wrong, that fanaticism and sermon of courage stack.

4. Again, just another suggestion.

1. I keep using the calvary because there's nothing else that I felt was going to be effective against archers. IMO, the mêlée troops suffer exactly the same problem that the calvary, except the problem is even worse because they move much slower than the calvary. So not only are they going to route from arrow fire, they're going to do it from much farther away relative to the archers then the calvary. The only thing I probably could have built instead was the high protection high morale shield less troops, but then those are demons. The fact that you can banish them always kills it for me, and that's just another "archer" unit to bash on them while they're crawling across the battle screen. It's such a huge liability, and for note, one of the nastier things that happened in the last battle I fought in was, of course, the much feared banishment spam.

Honestly I don't really have a vested interest in what you do with the nation. It's a very neat nation thematically (I love the drown/burned/buried girls for mages). I'm just giving suggestions. I don't want you to feel offended over what I've said, I'm just trying to voice what my experiences were picking up the nation and playing it in multiplayer.

Jazzepi

[Tuidjy]

It's your mod, but it's also my nation ;-) I see them a bit different than you do.

For me, the two most important things about Ulm are that they survived a
horrible civil war and the revelation they received to end it. I like how you
left the exact nature of the Aufklarung unclear. In my book, every Ulmish
believer experiences prophetic daydreams that show what their fate would have
been without the Aufklarung, i.e. in the official time line. So they are aware,
of what Ulm would have been - dying population, immortal vampires, blood hunting,
human sacrifice, summoned demons, etc...

Thus, as far as I am concerned, the believers of Lady Elena are completely
self-righteous, very brave, and at the same time, very afraid of what might have
been or still may come to pass. Any slavery, vampirism, or demons are a total
abomination. Think about guilt, too. Some of these knights, priests, and
guardians would have become the monsters of Late Age Ulm. They dream of being
vampires, ghouls, and of sacrificing their daughters. And they are still normal
human beings, who feel about this the way you and I would.

Yes, Ulm Reborn is insanely paranoid and aggressive. Any, and I mean any,
threats to their security, or hints of blood magic and demonic presence sends
them into righteous indignation, mobilization and full on assault. On the other
hand, they live with their guilt, and try their best to be honorable in all their
dealings. They want to distance themselves from the people they dream they would
have become. When their paranoia is not actively engaged, they're pacifists!

Oh, and right now, there is a Theological debate within the Priesthood about
death magic and undead. It is clear that not all death magic is forbidden,
given that lady Elena knows quite a bit and that some of the heroes of the Civil
War are returning as undead. It is also obvious that undead without free will
or those that feed on the living are an abomination. Everything else is a grey
area, and the discussion is raging. Very polite discussion, if I may add, as
everyone is afraid of another Civil War. It is bad enough that the old one is
still being waged - in the South, Ulm's armies are fighting the Blood Drakes,
who used to be Black Templars themselves.

[Tuidjy]

We are greatly worried that the perennial ennui has once again gotten hold of
our elven friends. For two months now, no orders have been given to the troops
operating behind Jomon's lines and many of the elven raiders have been cornered
and slain by the demons' thralls. Ulm is distraught by the decline of Sylvania's
fortunes, and would like to hear from the elven leadership.

[Tuidjy]

For a long time, the Priesthood of Ulm has been deeply suspicious of the
Vaettiheim confederacy. While proclaiming their love of freedom and racial
harmony, they were conducting a propaganda campaign against Ulm. Their obvious
attempts to turn the nations of the Light against each other were vile and
deceitful, but also clumsy and ineffective. Unwilling to risk the lives of our
citizens, the Priesthood chose not to take action.

But early this morning, we received a message from one of our faithful, who had
been sent to observe the goblins in their homelands. The brave soul had followed
the rumors of blood hunting to a forest in the far northeast, and risked his life
to approach a suspicious group of old women. He had barely gotten a good look at
them when a huge pack of wolves discovered him, and attacked.

We are sorry to say that he was eventually ran down and slain, but not before
managing to release one of his messenger pigeons. He reports that the Vaetti
hags had abducted no less than ten human girls from their families, and had
prepared them for use in blood sacrifice. Even more damning, a goblin lord was
seen amongst the wolves, proving that the cultists were operating with the full
support of Vaettiheim's rulers. It's clear what place the Vaetti vision of racial
harmony has reserved for the rest of us - that of slaves and blood sacrifices.

The vile creatures of Vaettiheim have been declared an abomination upon Lady Elena.

[Sombre]

Gee what a surprise. Interesting that it should coincide exactly with your attack force reaching my borders ;]

Well come then Ulmish conquerors, let's be having you.

[Tuidjy]

As a matter of fact, until we received word of your unholy practices, we were only
drafting a proclamation that was warning you to stay away from the lands still held
by the demons of Jomon. If you were to take some time away from tormenting little
girls, and were to instead review the reports of your own patrollers you might
notice that your hags were indeed observed by one of our men.

Do you think that we would have picked today to start a war with an enemy that our
forces cannot really reach, and especially at a time when we are already engaged
on two separate fronts? The only reason that the might of Ulm is now being
marshalled against Vaettiheim is the fact that you were caught preying on the
defenseless, and that your involvement with blood magic has been proven beyond doubt.

[Nikolai]

"You have been declared an abomination unto Lady Elena. " (Kharad Dzum 16/07/2007)

"They've been declared an abomination unto Lady Elena, and their days are numbered." (Sanguinia 1/08/2007)

"All those serving Jomon have been declared an abomination unto Lady Elena!" (New Jomon 20/08/2007)

"The vile creatures of Vaettiheim have been declared an abomination upon Lady Elena." (Vaettiheim 29/08/2007)

I am not in game, but can I start taking bets on next abomination? Is Lady Elena related to Nuggan (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Nuggan) ?

[lch]

Talk like that will get you declared an abomination upon Lady Elena in no time.

[Sombre]

Tuidjy said:
Do you think that we would have picked today to start a war with an enemy that our
forces cannot really reach, and especially at a time when we are already engaged
on two separate fronts?



By the time I'd read that declaration (oh so unexpected as it was, hah) you'd already attacked me and taken a province. You will continue to do so every turn, so I have no idea where you're getting 'cannot really reach'.

Sure we're using blood magic. And because you've declared war and been directly involved in the destruction of 3 civilisations we're going to be flaying and butchering a whole lot more innocent girls just getting the firepower to defend ourselves. So congratulations on that score ;]

But honestly the vaetti girls come willingly. Our mages need to spend time finding the maidens with the right kind of blood, it's true, but this is more like a talent contest. They volunteer. The unrest is merely a result of jealous families wreaking havoc when their 'little angel' isn't picked for the national honour of giving her life to defend our culture against tyrants like you.

The facts speak for themselves. We have initiated no wars and at all times merely defended ourselves. You have started 4 wars and invaded 4 other nations - usually those vastly weaker than yourselves. In the divine history of the multiverse, your Elena will be remembered as nothing more than a schoolyard bully. Provided you Ulmish even know how to write.

[Morkilus]

Actually, Jomon started the war with Vaettiheim and Sylvania was there to "defend the forestdwellers". With no help from the goblins, we were forced to recruit help from the Lady Elena.

The Dwarves were unfortunately subsumed under Ulmish rule due to their drunken incompetent leadership and a "goddess" who cared more about "paths" than a proper resource infrastructure.

We cannot comment on the war with the vampires and the Ulmish beef with Sylvania's magic, since Sylvania has has strict "Don't ask, don't tell" policy with blood magic.

[HoneyBadger]

To be fair, I picked the Goddess's paths.

Although I was going for a pure, chaste bringer of peace and wisdom, who would use her paths wisely, to benefit all dwarfkind with new sources of gems, so that we could feed the hungry, starving children of all nations, equally

...ok, yes, we were planning to feed the hungry, starving children to demons in return for an unbeatable war-machine, but let me ask you this, would they have gone hungry in the belly of an imp?

Is that not shelter, is that not warmth? is that not-dare I say it-love? A love the likes of which you shall never understand? Can your logic explain that away? Where's your intolerant society now? Where are all your dollars when
all you really need is a hug?

Explain that one, Santa! Explain that to your little elves and magic reindeer! In hell! that's where!

[Sombre]

Honeybadger: You were apparently also going for a turtling strat, what with the both of the two provinces you had stuffed full of PD. You're partly responsible for New Ulm running off with the game because you made such a godawful start with Kharam Dzu. I heard about it from Morky and lch. Not to worry though, in the second mod game, Mods Over Europe, I've avenged Kharam Dzu's humiliating loss by stomping New Ulm into fine paste and selling it to the vampires as skincare.

Morkilus: If you're just roleplaying, no problem. If you're seriously questioning why you got no help from me against Jomon, I don't know what planet you're on. I destroyed 3 or 4 large raiding parties that came near me - other than that I had no border with them because your invasion worked so well. Last time you complained about getting no help I asked you to confirm if you wanted me to move through your provinces in order to attack them and got no response. If you've buddied up with New Ulm then I guess you can take second or third place or something when he's declared the winner. Congratulations. I intend to give him a fight because it's more fun at this point than just giving up :]

[llamabeast]

Hey Tuidjy, just wanted to say I appreciate your RP posts - I've been really enjoying following this game via the thread.

[Morkilus]

Anytime I post about stuff going on in a game, it's roleplaying to me unless I'm talking about a bug, hosting, or issues with getting me turn in. With this in mind:

Sylvania was the smallest and weakest power since the unfortunate dwarves when it was brought under the current leadership. When we saw the attack on Vaettiheim, we could have easily waited for both nations to feel the burden of war before attacking one of them. Instead, we decided to fight one of the largest powers at that time in a total war. We have had the demons at our gates twice. We have lost all territories around our capitol several times. Our God has fallen. But we persevere through the might of our Phoenix Guard and Ulm's sieging force that shut down Jomon's recruitment in the North. Has Ulm benefited from such an alliance? Of course. Ulm has helped in the raiding of Italy, but once Jomon has been stomped completely, we shall retake all of their lands except for the several offered to Ulm in the North. Be assured Sylvania does not "give up" in its endeavors, and its God shall be righteously angry when he is called back from the Void. But first, Jomon must be stomped completely.

[Reverend Zombie]

I could not connect last night. Was the server down?

[Tuidjy]

I could not connect either. Is it up now?

[LoloMo]

Ahh yes, the hypocritical worshippers of Lady Elena of course sent no less than a Mummy adorned with all the most powerful artifacts to conquer poor Sanguinian villagers.
The evil wind of leprosy that this creature, foul even by Sanguinian standards, kills all that surrounds it.

The Sanguinian nobles, in their hour of demise, laughs loudly as the goody doodies are finally exposed for the filth that they are.

[Morkilus]

Pics or it's not true.

[Tuidjy]

Of course it is not true. Yes, another of Ulm's fallen heroes has returned from
the dead to continue battling evil in all its guises. He is not the first holy
undead whose duty is stronger than the chains of Tartarus. Our elven allies have
seen a storm hero closing the ring around Jomon's capital.

But it is not poor villagers that are being killed. It's brainwashed vampire
collaborators, the members of the militia that allows the bloodsucking monsters
to maintain their control over the peasantry. Ulm has liberated a dozen
provinces. With almost no exception, the population has been taxed nearly to
extinction. The unrest levels are usually at least twice higher than necessary
to forbid any kind of productive activity in the province. Once Ulm assumes
control, the taxes are waived until law and order is restored. The same is true
for the provinces freed from the cat demons' yoke.

The above is representative of Ulm's ideology. Abominations are dealt with,
efficiently and without mercy, innocents are protected, treated with honour and
kindness, and welcomed to the faithful of Lady Elena.

And of course, the rest of the vampires proclamation is pure nonsense as well.
The wind of leprosy does not kill anyone. It will disease those who oppose
liberating armies, but their lives are forfeit anyway. Even into unlife, the
heroes of Ulm know their duty. No innocent is ever exposed to the horrible wind,
and the local population is safe.

As for his equipment, I am sure that it looks mighty and powerful to backward
vampires who know nothing beyond preying on peasants and hiding from the Light.
But the truth is, Ulm has been able to forge these magical items since the
first year after the Civil War. No artifacts or even very powerful magical
items have been carried by our men into battle.

[Sombre]

What would an Ulmish hero be doing in tartarus with ancient imprisoned titans, monsters and the like? Ulm wasn't even founded when they were thrown into Tartarus.

This all sounds like death magic to me. So are Ulm harvesting gems from corpses now?

[Valandil]

Be careful, Sombre. Such talk will get you declared an abomination etc. etc.

[Sombre]

It's too late, he's already declared Vaettiheim an abomination.

Other abominations recently declared include: toast, wednesdays, touching your teeth with your tongue, being surprised, the angle at which a pig's tail curls, frosted glass, red and green, lampshades, thick milkshake straws, stationary featuring characters from Peanuts, cliches in westerns, squares and apricots.

[Morkilus]

Also: Misspelling stationery.

[Sombre]

Maybe I meant 'featuring characters from Peanuts' that do not move :]

Three word posts are now an abomination unto Sombrelina.

[Morkilus]

This means war!

[Tuidjy]

The mouthpiece of Freya had been repeatedly warned about his propaganda, but it
was not words that sealed his fate. Vaettiheim was declared an abomination for
its unholy sacrifice of human children.

And once again, the goblins reveal their arrogance and ignorance. They dare to
call us illiterate, when more than two thirds of those elevated to command are
librarians and archivists. They question our ability to write, but if they can
read, it is clear that they do not go out of their way to learn.

Let us enlighten you...

Yes, Tartarus was created a long time ago, and was originally used to imprison
titans and their ilk, but anyone who endangered the rule of the Pantocrator could
be thrown there. As the ages went by, even mortals who had insulted lesser
deities found themselves in that gloomy pit. Sisyphus and Tantalus are two of
the sinners whom our hero saw there. They are no titans, and if indeed they are
monsters, it is their actions, not their appearance made them such.

After the Pantocrator disappeared, the lesser entities that served him were left
without supervision or guidance. Some of them are even now trying to ascend to
Godhood. Others, with less ambition, just cling to their former occupations.
The Caretakers of Tartarus seem to be afraid of the growing power of Lady Elena.
When our white priest, a hero of considerable power and renown, lost his life,
the cowards threw him in Tartarus, rather than let his holiness and sense of
purpose challenge their power in the afterlife.

Of course, Lady Elena would never let a righteous soul in Her service suffer the
indignities of the pit, not if She can help it. Some find their own way to our
white priests, and are reborn as Star Heroes and Storm Heroes. Many are content
to find a final rest. Other are unfortunately lost amongst the innumerable souls
than populate the afterlife. But when the soul of a hero shines brightly from
the depths of Tartarus, Lady Elena has no trouble to reach and pull it out.

It is a pity that She does not have, yet, the power to return a man into his own
living body. A mummy is what he became, and the wind of disease is something we
all have to live with. But he is a hero, a faithful of Lady Elena, and he knowns
his duty. All care is taken that no innocent is harmed, and if it were to
happen, no effort would be spared to heal the unfortunate.

As for the use of death magic, the Priesthood of Ulm recently held a Council of
the Faith, which spent months discussing the issue of Death Magic. It was
decided that its use does not always constitute an abomination. It would be
cruel to reject the help of the undead driven by their duty. Ulmish angels,
heroes returned to life, even humble revenants - as long as they serve of their
free will, and do not prey on the faithful or on the innocent, they are welcome
to our ranks. As for gathering death gems from corpses, or raising undead
troops... these activities are indeed forbidden. They are disrespectful to the
fallen, be they friends or enemies.

[Sombre]

We didn't sacrifice human children - they were Vaetti who settled the provinces who surround our new home. If they look like human children it is only in the sense that your penitent look like Marignese flagellants, your White Priests like adepts of a certain magic order and your winged undead look like Caelians.

Our Dark Master awaits the power struggle between the followers of Seith and the new order of Sorcery to end. At this point hundreds of honoured slaves shall be sacrificed and the world will witness the release of his agents. If Ulm seeks monsters and abominations, they shall have them.