Gaining Levels

[solops]

I have seen messages inferring that magic users can gain levels through time or experience. I have never had a magic user gain any levels without spending jewels. Will someone please educate me on this? What are the ways that levels can be gained in the various magic disciplines?

[Jazzepi]

The only way I know to gain levels for free is from being "lost in time and space" which void summoning, and some items, do to your commanders. It returns you, eventually, with +1 astral. Maybe more.

Jazzepi

[Tichy]

The only way I know to increase a magic path on a mage is to "empower" him/her/it with gems. (Or use items to artifically increase it. Or the spell wish.) Experience will give mages more research points, though.

[lch]

Units gain experience automatically each turn, with enough experience they gain "stars" which increases some of their stats, including research for mages. They'll gain exp quicker per turn if they have been in a fight.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Twice born occasionally gives +1 death.

[llamabeast]

But generally, the answer is that experience will not increase magic skill. I spent ages and ages in my first game making sure a particular mage got as much experience as possible, waiting for him to 'level up' to fire-3 or whatever. But it doesn't work like that, a mage's magic paths are essentially fixed, and mostly experience doesn't help them hugely (although it increases their precision, and they may get a heroic ability of some kind which could be useful).

[Gandalf Parker]

Leveling up does not give them new abilities. It only makes them better at the ones that they do have. If they can fight then they can fight better. If they sneak, then they sneak better (I think?). If they can lead, then they can lead more. If they can do magic, then they get better results from the spells they can do but not get more spells.

[vfb]

My Exp level 3 prophet is still only Stealthy(+0).

And the 'better results from spells' is only from increased precision as llamabeast says.

For any value that is not initially zero, I think you get:

Morale: +1/exp level
Attack Skill: +1/exp level
Defense: +1/exp level
Precision: +1/exp level
Research: +1/exp level
Leadership: increases per exp level.

Edit: Forgot to add Research to the list.

[Tichy]

I don't think anything improves stealth over time -- I've actually wondered why there are no items that give or improve stealth...

I'm pretty sure that experience inproves research skill, too.

[Jazzepi]

There's an item that gives stealth. It's like black heart or something. A blood item.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

I know why no item gives it. Because in combination with the Black Heart to give assassin abilities you could create something very scary.

[vfb]

The Black Heart gives the "Assassinate" command to Stealth units. If your unit is not already Stealthy, it does nothing (except give you a nice gaping chest wound, ouch!). It does not increase Stealth.

[Jazzepi]

Doh, I thought it gave stealth and assassinate ;P

Jazzepi

[vfb]

That would be nice! Maybe a unique cursed artifact could be added that gave Stealth. Just give it some nasty side effects for balance. Turns you into a Gollum or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Saulot]

You want 'the one ring' to be on the artifacts list?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
Isn't that a bit much?

[vfb]

Yeah, let's forget I mentioned it! Otherwise someone will end up creating a Middle Earth mod, and any hopes of me overcoming my Dom3 addiction will be permanently doomed.

[Taqwus]

There are already some potentially rather nasty combos, like Flesh Ward + Amon Hotep (blood vengeance, reinvigoration, high protection, MR boost, and low encumberance)...

[thejeff]

It would be nice to have an item that boosted stealth if you had it.
And maybe an artifact that gave stealth 0. If there is only one, it can't be abused too badly right?

Experience adding to stealth would be good. Those scouts who've been hiding in enemy territory the whole game should be getting better at it.

[Gandalf Parker]

The problem is never what an item gives. Its trying to figure out ahead of time what can be created by stacking items. Giving stealth, even zero, would make it possible to add black heart and get an assassin out of just about ANY unit in the game. Think of it. Some of the assassins available now are bad enough. But it would take some really HARD looks at the units in the game to make sure that stealth equip didnt create the possibility of a totally beat-all kill-anything assassin SC thug. Personally I dont know what can beat the Lord of Night as an assasin but Im sure there are some creative experts out there that can come up with something.

It might NOT be possible but so far Im thinking it that the time ti would take looking for the possibility has just been avoided by allowing for an assassin item and no stealth item.

[thejeff]

Oh, I'm sure it will allow really abusive assassin SCs.

But if it's an artifact, there'll only be one of them and it won't be usable in the early game.
So do you send your fully equipped SC out as an assassin to hope he kills somebody useful and not just a random commander, or do you use him to beat armies.

And if you've got someone that can beat both the specially designed SC killers waiting for him and the large army with mage squads patrolling for home, how would he be stopped if you just invaded.

Make it take a body slot(or a 2handed weapon, though that makes less sense). And a misc for the black heart. That weakens a lot of builds right there. Especially if it's lousy armor.

[Jazzepi]

What if you charmed a doom horror, then gave it the assassin/stealth item if it existed? XD

Jazzepi

[MaxWilson]

Gandalf Parker said:
But it would take some really HARD looks at the units in the game to make sure that stealth equip didnt create the possibility of a totally beat-all kill-anything assassin SC thug.



I doubt any such thing exists. An assassination is simply a battle on a small scale, and the regular rules mostly apply except that there are fewer defenders. Petrify is still going to stop almost any assassin cold, unless he uses up item slots to bring along decoys (Wraith Crown), and of course the defender can bring decoys more easily as guards. Also, he's going to be able to assassinate at most one or two commanders per province, which is no worse than Mind Hunt or Earth Attack and takes more time--if he hangs around longer than that you'll just set your armies on Patrol and now it's assassin vs. the whole army, just a regular SC fight.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

Well as I said, Im not sure what can beat the Lord of Night anyway. Even WITHOUT equip its a god, titan (lots of hit points), it can fly, has stealth +10, fear +5, assassinates, summons help, and some good magic (1 death and 2 blood), a mace with strength 23, and paralyzing venom. Give him blood slaves which can at least be chaff if nothing else. He has a full complement of slots for items. Maybe some summoning items? maybe etherealness? There HAS to be a killer build there for an assassin.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, that sounds pretty hard to beat. The only thing that comes to mind is Shadow Blast, which probably has no better than a 5% chance of paralyzing him, and would rely on guards to actually kill him (or more likely just afflict him). Or throw another SC at him, like a Wraith Lord with The Summit and Aegis (for the chaff).

-Max

[Kristoffer O]

We have actually decided against stealth items sometimes during the development of dom2. I think the possibility to make multistealthing items (hiding commander and troops) are in the game, or almost at least, but for some reason we got scared by the concept and decided not to go through with it.

[vfb]

Claws of Cocytus or Infernal Prison should take out any assassin before it gets a chance to move. The spell will usually ignore chaff. So don't send your Lord of the Night to assassinate a commander in a Mictlan province full of Rain or Sun Priests. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Anyone scripted to Petrify could also be able to paralyze the Lord of the Night then kill it, maybe. Does Luck or Twist Fate have a chance to negate the paralysis from a failed petrify, or getting sucked away by Claws/Prison?

How do you get Lord of the Night anyway? Is it a nation-specific pretender?

[Saulot]

It's a Mictlan specific pretender. For the EA and LA era's only.

[vfb]

Thanks. Well, I guess you don't have to worry about the Mictlan priests then! And time for another SP game for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually I didnt mean beat him as in "take him out". I meant that Id be really interested in what could be a better assassin if there ever was a stealth item. Im sure that something could be nastier altho Im not sure what it would be.

[vfb]

Belial does a pretty good job as an assassin/seducer too. He can't fit in as much kit, but he's got more HP than the Lord of the Night, and can script Infernal Prison himself.

And stealing a commander is usually better than killing one, except it can take time to fly back out from your home province when you succeed.

[MaxWilson]

Saulot said:
You want 'the one ring' to be on the artifacts list?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
Isn't that a bit much?



Come to think of it, what is Sauron if not a Pretender? The One Ring should fit right in with the other artifacts. Say, +4 Defense and automatic Mistform (to represent the "shift" into the spirit world), +1 to all sorcery paths, +4 to MR.

-Max

[sum1lost]

The one ring sounds more like Kurgi than anything else. Superpowers, ethereal, attracts evil things...

[Taqwus]

A ring called 'precious' is already in the game, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[NTJedi]

MaxWilson said:

Saulot said:
You want 'the one ring' to be on the artifacts list?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
Isn't that a bit much?



Come to think of it, what is Sauron if not a Pretender? The One Ring should fit right in with the other artifacts. Say, +4 Defense and automatic Mistform (to represent the "shift" into the spirit world), +1 to all sorcery paths, +4 to MR.

-Max



I actually went as far as contacting Tolkien Enterprises asking for approval on creating a nation called MORDOR based on the Tolkien writings/movies.
Let's face it... how many wouldn't want to play against MORDOR or play as MORDOR. Naturally the nation would have been slightly stronger than the other nations.
Anyways despite my friendly and well crafted words they had to say no because all gaming rights have been given to another company.
I'll probably still create the nation for my own personal use, but I won't be able to give it to anyone.

[Fate]

At first it does sound scary, but it seems to me that a stealth body-slot item could even be construction 6 and be balanced (then again, I'm a bad SP player).

Here is a stealth item that might be interesting:

Cloak of the Unknown - Construction 2 or 4, something like 1N 1D, Cursed, Causes the wearer to receive automatic feeble mindedness and (maybe?) gives a slight chance the commander will be lost forever. To stop SC's from using it just give -5 MR.

Armour slot, protection 0, defense 0, encumbrance 0.

On the plus side it gives stealth 0 to the commander and up to 10 troops under his/her command.

Another possibility:

Unique Artifact - Sword of Darkness. Maybe 4 or 5 D? 2 hand slots. Cursed, ! automatic Darkness in battle !, blindess on hit? and gives 10 or 20 stealth, and -5 MR again. Att 0, Def 0, Dmg 10, Len 3.

I think the fact this weapon is more or less limited to those with dark vision makes it limited usage.

[MaxWilson]

Not necessarily. Darkness is great for almost anybody against, say, Helheim or Pangaea. Effectively it halves the difference between your units' attack and his units' defense. E.g. a regular spearman vs. a W9 Van:

Without darkness, (spearman) attack 10, (Van) defense 23, difference = -13 = 1% chance of hitting.

With darkness, (spearman) attack 5, (Van) defense 11, difference = -6 = 11% chance of hitting.

Of course the swarm factor will play into this too, but the point is that Darkness is a way of levelling the playing field, so it's useful against anyone who plays with elite units. Unless those elites have Darkvision, of course.

It also works great against arrows and spells, since it cuts precision by 75%.

-Max

Edit: hey, is R'lyeh freespawn upkeep-free? It might be really interesting to see R'lyeh casting Utterdark. Unexpected, anyway.