Sell me without saying "more"

[jaif]

Hey all, I've been reading a bit about Dominions III and comparing to Dominions II, and I am on the fence.

Can someone give me a reason to buy this game without using "more"? What I mean by that is that things like "more spells, more units, more nations" is not a big selling point to me. Has the game been tweaked in other ways?

One bonus question - does either dominions or dominions 2 come with a "no underwater" option? I know I can choose not to include underwater races, but I want to turn off all underwater activities. Is this possible?

-Jeff

[Sandman]

Unfortunately no. I too would be interested in a 'dead oceans' version of the game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually you can by using the "hosting switches". You can create an icon on your desk that creates a game of whatever parameters you want so that you arent putting the same ones in over and over. You can also get a really simple mod that would take the water nations out of the game. Or it can be part of the map commands for a certain map. Or you can generate playing maps that have no water (I think, I havent actually tried that). Maybe later I will post something specific on one of those if someone else doesnt do it first.

[Gandalf Parker]

As to the original question:
If you are looking for a very DIFFERENT game than Dom2 but just called Dominions then Dom3 isnt going to do it for you.

But it does have a much improved interface which has saved many of the complaints we had from Dom2.

Also a fantastic manual (almost 300 pages) which took care of many of the other complaints.

The AI was extensively rewritten which provides an opponent far later into the game. This was very needed since the many added nations means that the initial learning time is much longer before you choose the nation you feel is your best bet for multiplayer play.

The built-in random map generator is a big addition. It makes very playable maps of up to huge sizes.

The game now allows you to have multiple created gods for each nation. Also a major complaint in Dom2.

The hosting options have pretty much filled our needs for enough servers I think.

[jaif]

Gandalf,

Thanks much for your response. A random map generator and an improved interface would make me very, very happy. I think I may look into this.

Note that with the bonus question, I don't want to simply leave underwater races out. I want to remove everything to do with water breathing, water npcs, and so on. The water should be dead, as the other poster said. I want sailing ships to be the height of water usage.

-Jeff

[Gandalf Parker]

Well I think that generating a map with no water would be the best bet.
Anything else would be "impossible". *see sig

Gandalf Parker
--
The word "impossible" is a technical term which means
"it can be done but its probably more time and effort than its worth".

[lch]

As in, you could mod away all (low) amphibian attributes from units, make all water based spells and items that have to do with it inaccessible. But that's quite a bit of work.

Oh, and Dom3 has more of everything. More more more more more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

Pretty much what gandalf said(including his signature). You would basically have to mod out all water npcs/amphibious summons/water breathing items/underwater spells ect.

[Tuidjy]

Why bother? Make a script that changes all water provinces on a map to impassable,
and fixes the neighbors. Instant dead oceans.

It will slightly decrease the desirability of sailing nations, but "dead oceans"
already does this to land nations that have a relatively easy time underwater.

[Xietor]

Just make a map with little water, and then edit it(simple to do) to make all the water provinces "no start."

Dominions III is much better than Dom II, for many of the reasons stated.

I am ambivalent about the 3 ages, and downright hostile towards units, even heroes, starting with old age. The old age concept i do like, just not having units that start with extreme old age.

But there are many races with no old age issues, and even a mod that greatly reduces mages starting old. So that alone is not a reason not to buy dom III.

There are some really fun mods that you need dom III to play. And they can really enhance game play. Worthy Heroes Mod is a favorite of many, and there are many others as well.

I have talked 4 of my friends into buying Dom III, and 3 have liked it, and one has been too busy to play it yet.

[Sombre]

Sell it?

Well for me, it's all summed up by one word - MODS

Dom3 is one of the most enjoyable games to mod, it already has a plethora of excellent, high quality mod nations and other mods available for it and in the future it will have many more.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually what usually sells it when I pitch it is the idea that just LEARNING the game enough to think about doing multiplayer takes longer than most games of that price tend to survive on my computer. When the tutorial time is worth the price, then its a freaking good game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saulot]

Usually, the best way to decide whether a game is great and lots of fun, is whether it is fun to lose.

In Dom3 (like some other games that come to mind, like Dwarf Fortress or MTW 1/2) it's fun even when things go horribly wrong.

Though like both Sombre and Gandalf say, it has staying power, and the modding really multiplies that power.

[Saxon]

Dom III is deeper than Dom II. You have to think things through to a greater degree than before. I also held off buying for some time, but eventually did and have been very pleased.

The random map generators are very nice and you have new options regarding the setting of victory conditions. This allows you to customize how your game runs.

The pretender design function is also really, really nice. You can set up a pretender for a nation, then save it. This allows you to experiment and fiddle with your pretenders in a way you could not before.

The game has been finished to a higher polish than Dom II, the little touches are evident.

Finally, I will use the dreaded “more” word, as there is one area which you should consider. The three ages system and the large number of nations really does qualitatively change the way the game is experienced over time. It is not like some games where “more” means the same unit with a different graphic or “more” similar missions that have different names. These additional nations play differently and require you to truly adjust your mindset and approach.

[tibbs]

Stealth commanders are now represented with a triangle icon at the province they are at.

[Sombre]

tibbs said:
Stealth commanders are now represented with a triangle icon at the province they are at.



I've never noticed that.

[B0rsuk]

Nations are now quite a bit more diverse. For example instead of Sorcery/Elemental/Everything randoms you now have arbitrary random magic. In addition, all independent mages got nerfed, so your initial choice of nation matters much more.
Many nations now have nation-specific spells. Pythium and Marignon can summon angels, Mictlan got variety of crazy demon summons.

No nation/variant is now required to have specific scales. You don't have to take Turmoil as Spring&Autumn.

Random map generator creates very enjoyable maps, and they even look decent.

About 2x more gold and reasources = much bigger conventional armies. Magic research 2x harder.

AI now builds castles.

[Sombre]

Who could resist B0rsuk's badgery charm?

[Morkilus]

With NONE of the new nations, spells, and random stuff, I would still not go back to Dom2 after the improvements in this new version. Since it's a given that I play Dominions quite a bit, it's been the best computer game buy since... Dom2 for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Before 2004, it might have been Master of Orion 2, Master of Magic, or Warlords Battlecry 2. So you know where I'm coming from.

[llamabeast]

Re the "dead water" request - how about setting income, resources and magic sites for all water provinces to zero? Should be easy to do with map commands I think, and also I think it would be easy to write a script to automatically make the change to any map.

Of course, amphibious creatures could still walk across the sea floor, but that seems like it might be okay? If not, you could quite easily just mod out all the amphibious creatures. In fact, that would also be easy to do and even to automate, using Edi's excellent database.

Let me know if you'd like me to have a go at doing these things, it might be an interesting little thing to do. Not that I'd want dead seas myself.

[PvK]

I made a kind of dead water mod for myself which is an AI nation that is stuck in the water but is so powerful underwater that it effectively keeps the water provinces unoccupied. I should tweak it and share.

[jaif]

Tuidjy said:
Why bother? Make a script that changes all water provinces on a map to impassable,
and fixes the neighbors. Instant dead oceans.

It will slightly decrease the desirability of sailing nations, but "dead oceans"
already does this to land nations that have a relatively easy time underwater.



Ahh, but I want to have sailing nations be desirable. That increases maneuverability and opens up the game. What I'm trying to avoid is the turtling affect from nations that can hide underwater. In my experience, it just slows the game down.

Regarding the word "deep" as in "deep gameplay".

Me - "Commanders with dark hair now receive a leadership bonus in snowy terrain due to their higher contrast."
You - "oooh, that's deep"

Ok, I'm being silly to make a point, but added detail is not necessarily deeper in my book. I know it's a question of taste, but layering chrome needs to be done in an artistic manner. I'm not against complex games (of course, I like and play Dom II), but again the complexity needs to be done with style.

So when I hear "deep", I cringe sometimes. "more" is not always "deep".

-Jeff

[PvK]

"more" is not always "deep".


True, but in this case, I think it is. Not everyone agrees, but I think Dom 3's balance is much interesting-er http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif than Dom 2's. Access to all paths is less easy.

I have two new water-restriction-related mods in the works which restrict underwater conquest in different ways, which I think are both pretty interesting. I hope to have them ready to share by Monday.

PvK

[PvK]

Ok, I posted the first underwater-restriction mod here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=534965).