eye shield

[Baalz]

Does anyone know the mechanics of how the eye loss works? Specifically if you know you're going up against somebody with an eye shield what do you use to counter it? MR? Strong helmet? High defense?

[Foodstamp]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TwoBits]

Is Foodstamp suggesting that you order your troops to close their eyes and smile when in combat?

Or is he the one who's working you over with the eye shield? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Baalz]

Both. ;P

[Xietor]

Eye shields do not work on the great wyrm, maybe because he has 2 heads?

Other than that, it works on anything that has eyes(ie not blind).

MR really does not help much, as I blind vans with it and they have good mr. Though i will say vans still have a high attack with the loss of just 1 eye. Both eyes out though, and their attack is reduced to attack 0.

It is a good shield. One drawback, it offers no protection from fire, and does not deal damage, like the charcoal shield, or give luck like the lucky coin. So it is a good shield, but like anything else, it is better against some enemies than others.

[Shovah32]

If it dosnt work on wyrms then it could be MR related as a pretenders 18 magic resistance(along with him not making a huge number of attacks) tends to protect them from alot of unboosted magics(mindburn cast by 1 or 2 S2 mages for example) and while they can still take damage(squads of bandar Rishis soul slaying my enemies E9 regenerating cyclops for example) they are generally safe from a few basic MR tests.

[MaxWilson]

Vans have high MR, so if it works well against them I suspect it's not based on MR.

-Max

[Xietor]

Eyeshield is not great against spiders, as it gives them an affliction "lost some eyes" and if memory serves, was not that substantial a detriment. The clear implication was it still saw well enough with its remaining eyes to hit you quite well.

[lch]

Xietor said:
Eyeshield is not great against spiders, as it gives them an affliction "lost some eyes"


Yes, Wyrms and other critters only get the affliction "Lost some eyes", regardless how many eyes they lose. They never turn blind from eyeloss. I think I already reported that as a bug.

[TwoBits]

Maybe there needs to be a second step for multiple-eyed creatures - "lost some more eyes". Then a third, obvious step - "lost all your eyes". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

I think the eyeshield is fine as is. There is no need to have 1 item work against everything you face.

[Baalz]

No doubt, blind/more than 2 eyed units are relatively rare. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to field against an eye shield equipped SC. It's often not terribly difficult to become (virtually) immune to the offensive spells your opponent's national mages can cast, so if you can't really kill him with spells, he's too tough to kill with regular units, and any of your tougher dudes are likely to be blind a couple rounds into combat.....what's that leave you? This is a con-4 item, seems a bit odd there isn't a reasonable counter short of fairly extreme measures.

[Reverend Zombie]

Baalz said:
This is a con-4 item, seems a bit odd there isn't a reasonable counter short of fairly extreme measures.



If the effect is "MR negates", then high MR units seem a good, non-extreme counter. I've used the shield against even average MR units, and they don't seem to be automatically suffering the eye loss.

Or, attack with your own Eye Shield thug.

Use physical damage spells.

Focus on routing the rest of the attacking army so that he will retreat.

[vfb]

If you are Mictlan, then your jaguar warriors do get a chance to heal afflictions when they change from a warrior to a jaguar.

Have you sent in a turkey mage to curse the SC yet? He could get a "lose an arm" affliction and drop his eye shield when he gets hit.

If you've managed to research blood 7, then 5 Mictlan priests casting leech should manage to get off 2 casts of Leech each, for a total damage of 250 at precision 100.

Or try building temples all the way to his capital and use jade knife sacrifices to wipe out his dominion.

[Xietor]

It is tough to deck out a sc that is resistant to all magics.
But if you are facing one that is, use spells that cannot be resisted.

[Foodstamp]

I think I know a counter that trumps all these. But I can't tell you because I built the SC. I expect you will figure it out within the next few turns.

[Baalz]

Oh, I wasn't really looking for specific advice for my situation, rather more generally what the heck do you do against the eye shield that's reasonably universally available? MR doesn't seem to help, my 13 MR jaguar warriors seem to lose an eye about 75% of the time they attack (small sample set though). Defense also doesn't seem to help as it seems equally effective against vans. The only other thing I would think would be head protection, but nobody's mentioned that helping.

As for my particular situation, awe +2 (+fear 0), 21 protection and almost 300 hp makes Jaguar swarming not really an option (you still lose an eye, BTW, even if you're too awed to attack), and the difficult research and relatively early timing makes blood -7 a bit of a stretch (though of course I'm headed there). Immunity to every other damage type I can cast in combat rounds out my lack of options. Never fear, I've got a couple ideas I'm gonna try, but wouldn't want to tip my hand yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

One thing I would like to point out. This shield is available at research 2. I enjoy the discussion on how to counter it, but I don't believe this item is all that extraordinary. I employ this item a lot as well as the vine shield. I think both are great alternatives to the shields normally used to kit an SC.

As far as the rest of the gear my guy is wearing. It is just what I had on hand. I am down to just a few provinces, so my resources are fairly limited. I expect that you will topple me due to the fact that two other nations are chewing up my land as well, so this is hardly a dire situation for you. What will be humorous are the blind armies I shall leave in my wake with the fear 9 routing the blind foes. I can only hope so anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Natpy]

This is one of my favorite item. Eye lose effect dosnt "MR negates". I think i know the mechanics: the attacker lose his eye only when hit on shild (attack+DRN>defens+DRN, but attack+DRN<defens+parry+DRN). So, very big value of attack is a counter.

Sorry for my bad English http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Baalz]

It certainly does not seem to be the case that you lose an eye only if you hit the shield, if so then the counter would be having a really high attack value. As I mentioned, my jaguar warriors lost eyes over 50% of the time...even when they never swung their sword because of the awe effect. By the second round close to half of them were blind and most of them had lost at least one eye...despite the fact that their attack value was 2 higher than the defense value including the shield and less than half off them overcame the awe each round to even swing. They've got good MR, good attack, good defense and a lot of them didn't even swing, yet still had a *very* high rate of eye loss. Given that eye loss rate and no apparent way to counter it there certainly seems no point in sending my own SC in....the best I could hope for is that they blind each other if I bring my own eye shield. :/

[Reverend Zombie]

Can you Drain the Life out of him? I don't think that is resistable.

[Edi]

lch said:

Xietor said:
Eyeshield is not great against spiders, as it gives them an affliction "lost some eyes"


Yes, Wyrms and other critters only get the affliction "Lost some eyes", regardless how many eyes they lose. They never turn blind from eyeloss. I think I already reported that as a bug.


First time I've seen it right here...

[Baalz]

FWIW drain life is counterable by lifelessness (a golem for instance), but really my question is, does the eye shield really un-counterable aside from avoiding melee? Again, my question is about the eye shield, not about this particular nastiness Foodstamp is fielding.

Lucky - use quickness. Etherealness - magic weapon. Fire shield - fire resistance. Cold aura - cold resistance. Totem shield - use regeneration. High protection - AN. Blood vengeance - high MR. Eye shield - ??? stay the hell away from him ???.

I'm not really complaining, I just thought that there might be a way to counter it that I was unaware of. It seems odd that there's not. (blindness/multiple eyes are available to very few nations)

[Szumo]

How would you deal with a Gorgon that has awe, petrification and _two_ eye shields? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

I would panic.

[Jazzepi]

Eye would also panic.

Jazzepi

[Wahnsinniger]

Aye, me too.

(Sorry for what almost amounts to spamming...)

[lch]

Baalz said:
Eye shield - ???


Picus & Procas Axes of Rulership. No more Eyeshields... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Methel]

oh sooo punny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[NTJedi]

Baalz said:
FWIW drain life is counterable by lifelessness (a golem for instance), but really my question is, does the eye shield really un-counterable aside from avoiding melee? Again, my question is about the eye shield, not about this particular nastiness Foodstamp is fielding.





Someone suggesting a counter for one item when facing an SC can be misleading. We would need to know the unit, complete gear of the SC, your nation, research levels, and available mages to provide you suggestive counters. Start with cursing the SC.

[Baalz]

Well, as I said, I'm not really looking for a counter for the SC, this particular one can be countered by undead counters, by life draining, by lighting, by making her route (there is only the capital left so she'd die), banishment to Inferno, by soul slay spamming or by a dominion kill. That's not really the line of my question, it's more what do you do in general against an eye shield and the answer seems to be avoid melee altogether.

[MaxWilson]

Lifelessness does not counter Drain Life, it just prevents the enemy caster from leeching back fatigue. This may or may not matter--for instance, if he's casting from an item he can keep going all day even without the fatigue leech.

I don't think regeneration is a real counter to the Totem shield curse, but as you say it's odd that we don't know a mitigator for the eye shield aside from avoiding melee. There probably is one if we could figure how the mechanics work, but even if there isn't, there's no counter to the Black Bow of Botulf either.

One more thing: I wouldn't say the answer to an eye shield is to "avoid melee altogether," so much as it is "avoid melee with SCs." Nobody cares if chaff loses an eye or two. Again, this bears a resemblance to the Black Bow of Botulf, which AFAICT also tends to scare off SCs. It also resembles the N1S1 spell Curse (no MR roll) and... maybe a couple of other anti-SC spells that I can't think of right now.

-Max

Edit: oh, yeah, there's no real counter to the Vine Bow. No matter how high your strength is it still tangles you for a round, although how much of a problem that is depends on what other equipment you're wearing. And although this is more of an anti-chaff spell than anti-SC, there's no real counter for Magma Eruption other than heavy armor. Fire resistance doesn't help.

[Yrkoon]

If the eye shield blinds when a blow is successfully blocked, how about using a counter with a high attack, or even a morningstar ? Burning pearl and star of heroes for example are easy to forge, I'm sure there is more items that boost attack.

Or of course one could use naturally blind creatures (earth elemental, agarthan blind lord if applicable) but that is harder to get.

[Baalz]

I think an air shield gives you reasonable protection from the black bow particularly since hitting a single target with a bow can be difficult even with a good precision. I know that my casters refused to cast either leech or drain life at a golem, I assumed the lifelessness was the cause but I may be wrong on that.

The problem is that stuff you don't care about losing eyes also is stuff that is more or less completely ineffective against most things which get magic shields forged for them. If sending even elite recruitable units in is a red slaughter, and sending in a SC is out....sounds like avoiding melee altogether is the plan.

[MaxWilson]

For whatever it's worth, in a quick test game I sent a Mother of Serpents with an Eye Shield up against an SC with an attack of 17, Prot of 16, Def 19, MR 18, Morale 30. The SC killed the Mother of Serpents in three or four hits and didn't take an eyeloss, so the eye shield is hardly a deathtrap for SCs. You could probably get away with using Wraith Lords or Wyrms, or any SC that will regenerate its eyes on the rare occasion that it loses one.

-Max

Edit: Whoops, I forgot that recuperating Wyrms is one of my house rules. Kraken or Tarrasque, then. Not like either of those is going to be available mid-game, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit2: one more datapoint--my SC had nature magic, and I forgot to script it, so when it was attacking the Mother of Serpents it had 99 or so fatigue (she rushed up to melee range but lost her serpents on the way to some Earth Shards or whatever they're called). But she had 136 fatigue, because the first thing my SC did was cast Sleep. I don't think that affects the eyeshield, but if fatigue did somehow affect the ability to use the eyeshield that would suggest a couple of obvious counters, like, oh, Magebane.

[Natpy]

Mb eye shild effect counts before awe effect? When I tried it with Dryad, it seem to me like this.

[NTJedi]

Baalz said:
Well, as I said, I'm not really looking for a counter for the SC, this particular one can be countered by undead counters, by life draining, by lighting, by making her route (there is only the capital left so she'd die), banishment to Inferno, by soul slay spamming or by a dominion kill. That's not really the line of my question, it's more what do you do in general against an eye shield and the answer seems to be avoid melee altogether.



Well I'm not sure what nation you're playing, but if available use the spirits from spirit mastery along with some blessed flageants while your mages bring the SC down with spells. Another option is use an assassin with an amulet of vegenance... as long as it's life is 15 or less it will most likely die. Yet I don't understand the focus of this one item... every SC can use a variety of items and the eye shield is only average since it only helps after an attack is coming and does not always work.

[Huzurdaddi]

Yep, that is my favorite thug shield. Pretty much eliminates using troops against the Thug. Great item for 10 gems.