About Champion Skull

[Herode]

Do you guys know what's this artifact for ? The notice says something like "it makes you a seasonned warrior in no time" but I can't figure what this exactly means : more attack ? More defense ? More XP ? How much ? What's the amount of time required ? I tried the Champion Skull in a solo game and I've been unable to guess what it does... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[lch]

gives +3 exp per turn

[Herode]

Wow. Let's say 17 turns to get the first "star" with its bonusses. That's why I didn't notice the effect : it is almost microscopic. And sounds very expensive for a 10 death gems artifact, no ?

[Kristoffer O]

It only takes 10 xp to get your first star. But you are right. It might seem a bit slow to get higher xp levels for 10 gems.

[Jazzepi]

Actually, since you can pass it around your researchers it's not that bad. Think of it this way. You build one skull, give it to one researcher. 4 turns later, he has +1 research permanently.

Actually, this is pretty useless =\ For 10 death gems you can build a skull researcher which gives +9 research. See the below comparison between the XP skull and the research skull. The totals are the total amount of extra research attained by spending the gems.

I think if you raised the amount of XP the skull gave to +5 instead of +3, it'd be much more useful.

Turn / Skull Researcher / XP skull
1/9/0
2/18/0
3/27/0
4/36/0
5/45/1
6/54/2
7/63/3
8/72/4
9/81/8
10/90/10
11/99/12

Fixed my math. I'm taking Calculus you know, multiplication is below me XD

Jazzepi

[lch]

so, what's ten times nine?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[jutetrea]

no no, 6x9

[Wahnsinniger]

Elementary School Math errors aside...

It really doesn't seem worth it. How about instead the Champion Skull gives +1 Star while equipped. (i.e. When removed you lose the star)

[Meglobob]

The only time I have used champion skull is when I have got one as a random event. I give it someone until they get 1* then pass it on. Had 2 in a 109 turn game recently.

All in all I would describe the effect of the 2 skulls as microscopic over the course of that long game.

I'd never forge one, spend your 10D gems on something far more useful like a skull mentor or 2xBane Blades or Horror Helmet or a Bane.

If you want your units to get stars, have them accompany a army on a few successful and easy battles. Like say the barbarian invasion random events you get with misfortune 3 etc...

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I often use it to season my assassins.

On a related note, experience can bring precision and morale boosts. Precision is twice as effective over 10, and not all nations have any access to eyes of aiming.

On indie priests, to, it can result in 50% more leadership, if you've got nothing better to hand it off to. I haven't seen it affect magic or undead leadership, though. Though it migth on inborn (not path dependent, say Mound King), undead leaders. On my Angakok, experience takes me from 80->100 leadership. I'm not really sure how it functions.

Exp 1 star...
+1 Attack, +1 Defense, +1 Precision, +leadership (mundane), +1 morale,
no affect on hitpoints, strength, protection, magic resistance, encumberance.

There are probably other effects of experience (including research) but that's all I see off the top of my head.

Nothing spectacular, but not bad for an item whose effects last even after you've taken it away from your high risk unit.

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't use the skull on researchers, since they gain experience from researching anyway. They usually all end up with one star quite quickly, and two stars (50 xp) will take forever even with the skull.

I've been meaning to check and see whether the skull gives experience to your troops too, like that one site, Academy of War. And... unfortunately it doesn't. I might use the skull for precision boosts to mages, but nothing else and probably not even that.

-Max

[Saulot]

Perhaps it would be a good idea as Jazzepi suggests to give it a nice boost to +5 exp? I certainly like the concept of the skull, and would like it to be moved away from the 'usually not used' category of items.

[MaxWilson]

IIRC winning a battle is worth 4 xp (1 for being in a battle, 4 for winning a battle), so the skull is like winning a battle every turn. The problem is that every time you "hit" in a battle, it's worth 1 xp, so thugs tend to ratchet up experience quickly and don't need the skull, while armies don't benefit from the skull. It's a bit of a puzzle how to use the skull effectively. I guess it might be nice to let newly-born thugs start their first battle with 1 star instead of 0. 2 stars would take about 15 turns, which IMHO isn't really worth it. Even at +5 per turn it probably wouldn't be worth the wait except in peacetime.

-Max

[Edi]

I once used a skull pretty effectively. It was in Dom2, a game with CB Blood of Humans Abysia and one of my Newts got the Adept researcher heroic ability. He managed to rack up enough kills with Fire Darts that he was near the top of the Hall of Fame by the time I had enough mages to pull him off the front lines and I stuck him in a lab with a Champion's Skull so it took something like 30 turns before he finally dropped out of the Hall. He has something like 30 research point total, 3 from his F1, 2 from the modded research bonus and 25 from the ability. There were times when he counted for nearly a third of my entire research...

[Edi]

Another situation where a champion skull might come handy is making a combo of it with the Academy of War site, or with The Ancient Master for even greater effect.

[Jazzepi]

I'd really like to see this item upgraded to +5 XP. A small change would make it useful. As it stands, it's one of those "no niche" items that is completely useless.

Jazzepi

[PvK]

Bah. It lets you stack yet something else on your warriors, with no risk, indefinitely. I generally make at least one in all my SP games where I'm paying attention to trying to keep some heroes alive.

[Ironhawk]

The only use I've had for champion's skulls is for training thugs/SCs prior to deployment. Like if it will take me more time to forge thier equipment or if I'm at peace with my neighbors

[PvK]

Ok, but that is a good use. Your new thugs who wait a few turns all those +1's in their first battles, without using any magic slots during combat, and you can share the skull behind the lines essentially forever.

I think it's a very useful (but subtle) item.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Completely useless? Bah. What nation do you play? As Agartha, it takes forever to get anywhere, so why not put that 'in transit' time to use?

[quantum_mechani]

Edi's is I think the only really viable use I have heard of for it. Buffing a thug up a few XP is not a big deal considering how fast they get one star anyway and how long it takes to get it to 2+ stars with it.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

We'll continue to disagree, then.

[Jazzepi]

The problem isn't that it's completely useless, obviously it does things. The problem is that 10 death gems + forging time would be better spent anywhere else. The opportunity cost is simply too high.

Jazzepi

[Meglobob]

Jazzepi said:
The problem isn't that it's completely useless, obviously it does things. The problem is that 10 death gems + forging time would be better spent anywhere else. The opportunity cost is simply too high.

Jazzepi



Jazzepi's got it spot on here.

Its a good idea for a magic item, just needs a little something else to make people consider forging it.

[PyroStock]

Death magic is one of the last places that needs to be looked at for upgrades (IMO) and not everyone considers this useless. I've used it, but I'm on the fence every game whether to make one only because a *few* other death spells/items are *incredibly* potent & cheap... not because this is useless. Edit: There are several spells/items that have a high(er) opportunity cost so why not upgrade the less potent & less diverse magic paths before making death magic even more powerful?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Talking about opportunity cost...

I tend to use it in games where I have death mages, but not very powerful ones or lots of death gems. Unlike, say, a Bane Blade, there's little risk of loss.

Again, its often useful in times of peace. And then, while it might take a long time to gain an experience level on its own, it may be all you need after a large battle to bump experience up a notch.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I have a use for the skull. Use it to increase the leadership on your pure commander (i.e. non-thug) units.

-Max

[Tuidjy]

I have also used the skull in order to get the first level for thugs and troop
shufflers, and to keep someone in the hall of fame. Still, I think that it would
be nice if the bonus was a bit more significant. I would love +6. This way, you
would get to use the second level on the third turn after recruitment.

[jimkehn]

How about letting it add +3 for each level of experience the bearer has. +3 for no stars, +6 for 1 star, +9 for 2 stars, etc.

[MaxWilson]

That would make it more useful, but I wouldn't like it thematically. It's supposed to be whispering hoary old veteran secrets in the youngsters' ears, so experienced commanders should derive less benefit from it, which is how it currently works.

-Max

[Slough_Gairn]

MaxWilson does the Academy of War give experience to your troops?

[MaxWilson]

Yes it does.

-Max