Mara - EA game for newish players - full

[llamabeast]

I'm planning to run a new EA game for newish players.

Players: 6-8
Map: Probably a home-made subsection of Cradle or something, around 120-140 provinces.
Mods: None
Schedule: 24 hour quickhost (game hosts after 24 hours or when all turns are in, whichever's sooner), at least for the first 40 or so turns

House rule: No more than one level 9 bless.

Please sign up and choose a nation!

So far we have:

Caelum - IndyPendant
C'tis - parcelt
Oceania - Snacktime
Marverni - fungalreason
Lanka - Methel
T'ien Ch'i - Warhammer
Helheim - thraveboy
Yomi - sum1won

The website for the game is www.llamaserver.net (http://www.llamaserver.net) .

[IndyPendant]

Sign me up! I've been waiting for another one to open up. : )

I'd like EA Caelum.

[parcelt]

Sign me up too! I have been looking for a new game, now that I have learned some lessons lately in my first MP game (read: been thought some lessons:)

I'd like to be C'tis if possible.

[parcelt]

Llamabeast, you have me thinking now: what South American animal is Mara?

[llamabeast]

It's one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_%28mammal%29).

Name and link provided by Starshine Monarch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Isn't it cute?

[llamabeast]

Oh by the way, Snacktime pre-booked by PM, and would like one of Kailasa, Mictlan or Oceania.

[fungalreason]

I'd like to join as well. Would like to try Mictlan or Maverni.

[llamabeast]

Great, I'll put you down fungalreason.

This is filling up pleasingly fast! If it overflows I'll probably start another.

[Methel]

Id like to join please, as.. hmm Lanka might be fun to try http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Great I'll put you down. But with that, I think I'll add an extra house rule - no more than one level 9 bless. Don't want too much in the way of crazy bless rushes.

[Warhammer]

I'm in...

Need to figure out which nation though, was going to go with Caelum, but they're already picked.

[thraveboy]

I'd love to play.. Helheim. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

thraveboy - pick one! It's generally easier for me if people are just assertive about what nation they want to play.

[sum1lost]

C'tis, please

[llamabeast]

sum1won - parcelt already took C'tis sorry.

[sum1lost]

whoops, didn't see that.

How about yomi?

[llamabeast]

Done.

Wow, that was incredibly fast. Okay, we're full then. But if anyone else would like to play, post anyway and I'll start a new game up.

Okay, you can start uploading your pretenders. Here's how:

- Go to Game Tools -> Create a pretender god in Dominions
- Go to the savedgames/newlords folder in the dominions directory, and find your pretender file (e.g. mid_pythium_0.2h)
- E-mail the file to: pretenders[ at ]llamaserver[ dot ]net
- Crucially, you must have the game name, 'Mara', in the subject line of your e-mail

You can see who's joined so far at www.llamaserver.net (http://www.llamaserver.net) .

[llamabeast]

I've created an overspill game now called 'Chupacabra'. Anyone who didn't get in on this one but would like to play, please sign up to that one instead.

[thraveboy]

Helheim for me.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[sum1lost]

Ugh. Helheim, lanka, and mictlan.

Whoever lasts past the tenth turn deserves a prize, methinks.

[fungalreason]

I've decided on Maverni. Don't have time to create a pretender just yet. I'll do it later tonight though.

[llamabeast]

ARgh, it's true this could be a viciously rushy game. People should take that into account when designing pretenders. An SC might be a good idea, and you might want to run a test game to see if it can withstand a small rush of Helheim sacreds.

By the way, if you want to change your pretender design but have already e-mailed it in, you can always e-mail in a new one and it will use the new version.

[IndyPendant]

You can control the placement of the nations, right Llamabeast?

If a quick rush is going to be the huge concern it seems it might, why not just place the three major rush-y nations together in one 'corner' of the map? Maybe even with an extra 'buffer zone' of 1 or 2 provinces' distance from that group of 3 and the rest of the players.

If they're going to rush other players out of the game--let them rush each other. : )

Will we need to download a new map to play this game?

[llamabeast]

I'll have a think about how to place the nations, thanks for the ideas IndyPendant.

I'll attach the map file here when the game's about to start (and I've made the thing).

Right, I suggest a deadline of late Sunday night for getting the pretenders in. As in, maybe 8am Monday morning in the UK, so late at night in the US. This is arbitrary, it's just to provide some encouragement to get your pretenders in so we can get the game started.

[Warhammer]

I will be Tien Chi. Need to think of a good pretender though.

[parcelt]

Llamabeast, what strength will you putting the independents at?

[Methel]

Chupacabra? thats the goat sucker right? Think I remember it from an x-files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[llamabeast]

parcelt - all settings will be on default, unless anyone has any strong opinions. So indies at 5.

Methel - yep, that's the one. Incredibly I never actually saw a single episode of the x-files though. Don't know how I managed that.

[IndyPendant]

Rename on! Strong opinion! : )

[Warhammer]

Any mods for this game?

[llamabeast]

Yep, rename'll be on, and no mods.

[Snacktime]

Hi llamabeast/all! I'll happily take Oceania. Cheers!

Snacktime

[llamabeast]

Right, I've started Mara. Unusually I didn't test it first, so let me know if your starts all look fine (I used to get a problem where some players simply wouldn't have a starting province, but I think I've worked out why now and fixed it).

Have a good game guys!

[llamabeast]

Oh yeah, the first turn has 48 hours on the clock in case of problems. But you should be able to get it done very quickly (assuming there are no problems of course). Subsequent turns will have 24 hours.

[fungalreason]

It's saying the game requires the mod "CBM ulm reborn" when I load it? Is that a mistake or do I need to download that from somewhere?

[Snacktime]

Yes I also get the CBM ulm reborn mod missing message.

Incidentally, what map are we using? Were we supposed to grab it from somewhere?

[Warhammer]

If we need the mod, a link would be great.

[llamabeast]

Ooh dear, that's not meant to happen. Hmm, this happened once before, I'm completely stumped as to why.

Okay, I will restart it shortly, when I get a chance. I'll, um, delete the Ulm Reborn mod I guess - that'll stop it!

The map's a modified version of Parganos. But you don't need the modified version to play I don't think, the information's included in the trn file as I understand it (could be wrong though - I guess we'll find out pretty soon if I am). I've actually made a modified graphic of Parganos as well, making the colours a bit richer and the borders more visible - I'll post it when I get home later.

[Snacktime]

Thanks Llama - hey I sent you a new pretender file last night. If it's not a pain can you use the new one on restart? If not no problem.

[llamabeast]

Yep, sorry Snacktime, I meant to tell you I'd sorted that. Actually you should be able to send revised pretenders straight to the server and it should realise what's going on and use the new one.

[Snacktime]

Thanks!

[llamabeast]

Guys, I'm really really sorry for the silly number of false starts to this game. I seem to have been on a run of incompetence. Anyway, the final "Mara is starting!" message you got is the correct one, and you should play that turn.

Sorry again. Have a good game!

[thraveboy]

No worries. Thanks a lot for putting this together! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[parcelt]

uuhmm.. is something wrong with the server? I submitted my turn about 40 minutes ago (was the last one) and received the standard message saying the turn was received well... shouldn't the new turn be in by now? I haven't received it yet.

perhaps it's just me being impatient.

[llamabeast]

It sent all the new turns out successfully, including yours (you can see on the website that it's gone on to the next turn and some people have already taken it). Have you checked your inbox isn't full or anything?

Sometimes e-mails just don't seem to make it through the aether, or else are delayed. You can always just ask it to send your turn again (again, look on the website, click on "Mara", and the option is near the bottom of the page).

[parcelt]

I just asked for a resend and now it's in. thanks Llamabeast.

[IndyPendant]

Btw, this weekend is a holiday for us Canuckleheads, and I'm going away for vacation. The latest I would be able to get a turn in would be 07:00 - 09:00 GMT, Saturday August 4th. Then I won't be be able to get a turn in until around 07:00 - 09:00, Tuesday August 6th.

What I can do, if you'd like, is post again in this thread when I've done the last turn I'll be able to before my trip, and ask you to delay it so I don't stale out.

Let me know.

[fungalreason]

As a warning to anyone else who may think it's a good idea to wage war on poor Maverni. This could be you!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/fungalreason/yomiDown-1.jpg

[sum1lost]

fungalreason said:
As a warning to anyone else who may think it's a good idea to wage war on poor Maverni. This could be you!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/fungalreason/yomiDown-1.jpg



It aint over till its over!

Also, killing mercenaries and bakmeno archers isn't cause for celebration. You know how quickly I can replicate bakmenos?

[IndyPendant]

Considering that--so far as my spies can determine--we're you're only neighbours...

...not intimidated. : )

[Snacktime]

Neighbor Helheim - I sent you a proposal by pm for traversing your lands with minimal hassle. See what you think.

- Oceania

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Hat off to you, Marverni; you're certainly annoying the *heck* outta me! : )

Still, 50/50 chance of beating your movement. One of these turns, I have to smash that annoying army of yours that I'm chasing all over my provinces. Just need to move first. Grrr...

Edit: Meanwhile, my other armies will continue their offensive into *your* territories. ; )

[sum1lost]

fungalreason said:
As a warning to anyone else who may think it's a good idea to wage war on poor Maverni. This could be you!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/fungalreason/yomiDown-1.jpg



Or, indeed:

'Our forces defeated the attacking force from marverni.

Friendly combatants
commanders 1, killed 0

regular units 70, killed 18

Enemy combatants

Commanders 3, killed 2
Regular units 100, killed 51

[fungalreason]

IndyPendant said:

Edit: Meanwhile, my other armies will continue their offensive into *your* territories. ; )



That's perfectly fine! I'm sure your other neighbors will be happy to *watch over* your lands for you while your army of mammoths marches to its demise in Maverni territory.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Doh. Starting (most likely) an unintended war due to a mild bout of stupidity, that would probably not be believed if explained. Ah well... : )

[llamabeast]

Explain! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sounds like an interesting story.

[llamabeast]

Postponing the turn by 13 hours since IndyPendant has gone away. Um, should have done it before and as a result he's staled a turn - sorry IndyPendant!

[IndyPendant]

Oh good gods.

What a time to stale me out.

Just finished a critical battle with Marverni, kicking their butts. Now he's had a 'free turn' to recover. No idea what's going to happen there--if anything.

Had my *capital* attacked by a 'group of heroes' that defeated it and laid siege to my home province. So I've lost its gems, income, and research. For two turns now.

TWO armies staling in a province that couldn't support them. Now they're diseased and starving.

ARGH!

[sum1lost]

My luck was no better. Rain- Massive rain- dampened my three fire evokers so not only were their fireballs weak (killed about 6 units among 4 fire mages), but exhausted them by the second casting...

In the most critical battle I've been in so far. If it hadn't been for them, its entirely possible that I would have laid seige to the capital.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'll be helping Llamabeast with the administration for this game. If you can't get a hold of him, or he seems busy, summon me. Simple requests like AI'ing a player, delaying the hosting of a turn, or changing time intervals are within my domain of power. More arcane rituals such as glitchy turn file will require the summoning of the lord of Emails Far Travelled, devourer of turns, host of multitudes, Llamabeast.

The ritual summoning of the lord of sloth and order costs three earth gems, one water, and one death. Or just a private message.

[Warhammer]

Please advise if the due date for the turn moves up. I am planning on it being due Wednesday.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Its due 0:25 GMT on Wednesday. Or, in my neck of the woods, 8:25 PM. Need me to delay it?

[llamabeast]

Oh good gods.

What a time to stale me out.

Just finished a critical battle with Marverni, kicking their butts. Now he's had a 'free turn' to recover. No idea what's going to happen there--if anything.

Had my *capital* attacked by a 'group of heroes' that defeated it and laid siege to my home province. So I've lost its gems, income, and research. For two turns now.

TWO armies staling in a province that couldn't support them. Now they're diseased and starving.

ARGH!



*cringes*

[llamabeast]

Sorry again IndyPendant. That was quite unfair, especially since you let me know in good time. Wish I hadn't forgotten.

[lch]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:More arcane rituals such as glitchy turn file will require the summoning of the lord of Emails Far Travelled, devourer of turns, host of multitudes, Llamabeast.

The ritual summoning of the lord of sloth and order costs three earth gems, one water, and one death. Or just a private message.


Mhm, "lord of sloth, devourer of turns"... I like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

I believe "lord of sloth and order" means "Lazy_Perfectionist"? Nice.

[Warhammer]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Its due 0:25 GMT on Wednesday. Or, in my neck of the woods, 8:25 PM. Need me to delay it?



That should be ok, I think. That's what 7:25 CDT?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Yep. 7:25 Tuesday.
I'm lord of sloth and order...

I'm especially proud of the 'devourer of turns' descriptor for llamabeast. Thats what he server does. Eats up .2h, poops out .trns.

P.S. That was an especially inelegant phrasing. Coffee? Don't type before awake in morning.

[IndyPendant]

No worries Llamabeast; I knew you didn't do it deliberately. I was just...a teensy bit frustrated, is all...

You know, I've actually been enjoying this game a bit more than Chinchilla, and there have already been a number of interesting minor twists. I may do a writeup from my viewpoint when it's all over, if anyone is interested.: )

(Can't do it now, cuz it may reveal too much info.)

[Warhammer]

I'd be very interested in that. Chinchilla has been boring because there has been no diplomacy going on. This game people have been talking to each other and everything.

[parcelt]

Lanka, I think you sent me an ingame message that was meant for somebody else - something about NAPs

[Warhammer]

I'm not sure Lanka checks over here much. I sent him a PM a few days ago and still haven't seen anything back. Might want to send it in game.

[IndyPendant]

It took me a short bit to figure it out, but I'm pretty sure Lanka's message was a Global to all players, responding to Oceania's message from the turn before.

I too was looking at that message for a long moment, going "What the--but I haven't attacked Lanka recently!" : )

[fungalreason]

Heh, had me very confused as well. I couldn't figure out why in the world he was worried about a NAP when I didn't even have an idea where he was on the map.

[Methel]

Heheh, perhaps I sould blacken oceanias reputation on the bords instead of ingame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So carrying on:

"Im not going to attack you, im going west" then two turns later you invade. Thats not backstabbing?

Be glad for the annoyance of the Tien Chi troops, or I would swat you like the fly you are.

[Warhammer]

The annoyance of T'ien Ch'i? If you guys would actually stop to fight rather than avoiding my armies, you guys would be toast!

[sum1lost]

Holy wow, but that was a desisive rout.

To be fair, I think I invested quite a lot more into the evocation school than poor marveni did.

[IndyPendant]

Hey Helheim, I have to ask:

Did you seriously take Turmoil-3, Sloth-3, Death-3, Misfortune-3, *and* Drain-3 for your scales?!? And if so...good gods, what was your bless and/or pretender?

(Heh. And if you don't want to tell me your bless and pretender cuz we're currently in a war, that's okay too. I'm...just curious... : )

[parcelt]

Hi everybody,

this is just a suggestion. In one of my other games (Atla), people are trying to organize a marathon were we would all link up at some time during a weekend and get a bunch of turns done. Just wondering if we could do something similar with our Mara game, if you're all interested? (and if its even possible with timezones, etc)

[Warhammer]

I am on CDT...

[sum1lost]

I'm off to college soon, so that isn't too likely. Also, at this point in the game, turns can start to take a bit longer than 10 or so minutes...

[thraveboy]

Hey Caelum..

Did that smackdown that I just gave you answer any of your questions? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm PDT..

[sum1lost]

I'm ADD.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. You're joking, right?

You defeated *one* of my armies--which was besieging your castle--by throwing everything you had at me, including your SC mega-magic Pretender. And lost around half your army in the process. Hardly a 'smackdown'.

I have a second army already on the way, and a third ready to head out should it be needed.

PDT. Pretty Durned Tough?

Heh. I must admit, I'm getty Pretty Durned Tired. I've done nothing but war since about Turn 8 or so--and in SP I'm usually a builder-type. I'd love to be able to spend even a few turns, relax, sit back and turtle up.

But nooooooo, Marverni and then Helheim had to go and attack me... ; )

[thraveboy]

No, it pretty much was a smackdown. The only troops I lost were my disposable summons that I bring back each round. So, come on back down for a little more smackdown sandwich.

[Warhammer]

Just a heads up for everyone, things are going to be pretty hectic the next few days. I'll be getting my turns in, but any PMs may take a bit to get responses.

[sum1lost]

Heads up, I may be getting a sub for this, as I will be incredibly busy at college.

[IndyPendant]

Hey Helheim, a little advice:

Next time, be a little less predictable. ; )

[IndyPendant]

Oh, and win or lose, I'd just like to say--unlike Chinchilla, this game has been an absolute *blast* so far. And my writeup is ready to post when this is all over; so far, it's got 3 parts, and I'm just starting on Part 4...: )

[sum1lost]

Pfft.

I was having fun in chinchilla. Until just recently, anyways.

[Warhammer]

IndyPendant said:
Oh, and win or lose, I'd just like to say--unlike Chinchilla, this game has been an absolute *blast* so far. And my writeup is ready to post when this is all over; so far, it's got 3 parts, and I'm just starting on Part 4...: )



Agreed. And I'm not just saying that cause I got my butt handed to me in Chinchilla. This game has been much more dynamic than that game was.

[Warhammer]

sum1won said:
Pfft.

I was having fun in chinchilla. Until just recently, anyways.



Any MP game of Dom3 is better than none, but I think there is a night and day difference between here and Chinchilla.

[thraveboy]

Caelum, you got lucky that when I tried to move into that territory with full force I accidentally snuck my troops there because they were overly glamorous, thus getting split into two battles rather than one smackdown. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[parcelt]

Have to agree on the Chincilla vs Mara discussion, although in my case I DID get my butt handed very quickly in the Chincilla game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[sum1lost]

parcelt said:
Have to agree on the Chincilla vs Mara discussion, although in my case I DID get my butt handed very quickly in the Chincilla game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



*winks*

Abysia is busy carving me up right now in that game, so I got what was coming to me.

[parcelt]

no worries - if there's only one MP rule I adhere to then its not to carry grudges from game to another. Besides, it was fun (well, kind of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) being thought a lesson by your Pythium communions giving a demonstration in the power of air magic!

Still good to hear Abysia is doing well, he was an honorable neighbour to me, albeit very diplomatic (I was begging him to help me out be he kept politely refusing).

[sum1lost]

Although this is a 'newbie' game, would anyone have any great objection if Velusion took over for me in a few turns? He ahs rather a lot of experience, so there could be possible objections.

[Warhammer]

Would it be a problem to postpone things over the Labor Day holiday? I'm going to be at a wedding from Thursday through Sunday this next week. I might have internet access Thursday, but I will have neither game nor internet access after Thursday.

[parcelt]

Velusion taking over Yomi is fine with me, as is postphoning over Labor Day.

[Warhammer]

Stupid question, but do we have a mod for this game?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I can admin it while llamabeast is away. There may be someone designated as the admin for this game, but llama has given me the password for this one. In a pinch, I can do something for you, though I don't plan on being the permanent admin.

[Warhammer]

Its more of a make sure if everyone is ok with delaying over the holiday that it will be delayed.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

That sentence came out a bit scrambled, Warhammer. But i think I get what you're saying.

If you guys decide on something, I can implement the delay. But it's not 'my' game, so I'm not the 'Decider'.

[llamabeast]

Hello! I'm back, in fact. Now, this game I cocked up somehow and failed to ever sort out an admin (although LP accidentally got given the password - and thanks for still watching the thread LP). So, I would really really appreciate it if someone could volunteer to be the game admin, which would just mean doing things like postponing hostings when people ask and stuff. Volunteers? (please?)

[sum1lost]

I'd like to apologize to Caelum for putting the hurt on his troops with a dai oni. Um. I'm not sure how to apologize for that, but we didn't mean to. I wanted to see how my Dai Oni would measure up to the barbarian army, not your fliers.

In a word to C'tis:

Cancelling the NAP is not in your long-term interest, unless you have some very, very impressive military might indeed. I have no intention of invading or attacking you, but if you plan on war, please tell me- I hereby extend the offer to you of a gentleman's war. PM me for details.

[Warhammer]

Finally, the evil that was known as Shard of the First Mountain has finally been eradicated from the world...

[Warhammer]

Lanka needs to be removed from the turn list. Not sure if that is done by mod or by the server automatically.

[Snacktime]

Hi all this is Oceania - I am fine with postponing over Labor Day weekend, I am also out of town and it will be a pain (though not impossible) to keep up. Cheers! ps. this has been a lot of fun so far, thanks all.

[Snacktime]

By the way if sum1won (Yomi) needs a sub and an experienced player signs up, no problem for me. get whoever comes along to sub. But if someone objects, that's fine too.

[Warhammer]

If we need a mod I guess I can do it.

[llamabeast]

Great, thanks Warhammer, I'll PM you the password.

Everyone else - Warhammer's the man to ask for postponements etc - although still do it by this thread so people can see what's going on.

[Warhammer]

Since we have two players that will be out of town for the weekend, I will postpone the game.

Snacktime, when will you be leaving and when will you be getting back?

[Snacktime]

Hi - I leave Friday evening and get back Tuesday evening, EST. But if we want to make the postponement shorter, I will find a way to log in.

Thanks Warhammer.

[Warhammer]

I will postpone it tomorrow night and have the next turn run Wednesday morning.

[Warhammer]

So has Velusion taken over or is sum1won still playing?

[sum1lost]

I'm playing. I didn'[t get confirmation from enough players, and besides, I'm getting eliminated from some of the other games.

[IndyPendant]

I...couldn't confirm. The idea of Yomi, in your currently very-strong position, in the hands of an experienced player...

I'm a coward. Sorry. : )

At least I couldn't bring myself to outright *refuse*! That's good, right? Right? ...

[sum1lost]

IndyPendant said:
I...couldn't confirm. The idea of Yomi, in your currently very-strong position, in the hands of an experienced player...

I'm a coward. Sorry. : )

At least I couldn't bring myself to outright *refuse*! That's good, right? Right? ...



Its okay. Either way, my luck with my oni is not what I hoped it would be- I'm getting far too many fire mages, and not enough earth or death.

[Warhammer]

You guys should all get a note soon regarding the server for this weekend. I've set the turn run time for 120 hours, but left quick host on. That way we can still run turns until Snacktime or I can't get to a computer.

[sum1lost]

The nation of Yomi would like to remind its neighbors that any attacks will be repulsed with extreme prejudice, and massing armies on its borders is considered a hostile act. Furthermore, the nation of Yomi also possesses the capability to get some serious hurting on.

*fixed

[sum1lost]

The nation of yomi is requesting gem trades- pm for details, and state what you have available, please.

[parcelt]

?

Do you mean the 'nation of Yomi'?

And I don't see any armies massing on your borders? (I do see some on my borders though)

[sum1lost]

parcelt said:
?

Do you mean the 'nation of Yomi'?

And I don't see any armies massing on your borders? (I do see some on my borders though)



Yes.

Last turn, there were 100 some heavy infantry/chariots, with a consort of the dead on a border province. I consider that to be threat.

There were also around 300 caelumite troops, although they have since disappeared.

However, if Caelum has no objections, I will be keeping those troops there to patrol that area- something is causing diseases in that area, and I don't want it in my territory.

[Warhammer]

I just object to someone calling themselves the nation of Mara.

[parcelt]

True. But I'm pretty sure those troops have been there for a while, and pretty stable too (unlike what just appeared across the border).

I guess it is a bit presumptious to call yourself nation of Mara, if it implies you think you won already? (not yet, neighbour, not yet, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) On the other hand, positive thinking is half the work, right?

[sum1lost]

I meant nation of yomi...

As for stability- the 60 soulless were already adjacent to your border. I merely moved them south to be across from your main army, along with their necromancers. As for the oni- they're about a dozen of them total, to support the undead. I was merely concerned by the slow buildup, and am withdrawing the majority of my forces this very turn.

[Warhammer]

Vote yomi, oh wait, this isn't Werewolf!

[Snacktime]

Hi everyone - I'm back from my trip, and would be pleased if we returned to the 30 hour schedule of before. Thanks for accommodating me over Labor Day.

Cheers! Oceania

[Warhammer]

Cool, I'll be reseting the server time in a few minutes.

[Snacktime]

or was it 24 hours? if so that's fine too. i'll get my turn in asap, sorry bout that.

[IndyPendant]

I suppose this could devolve into a he-said-she-said sort of thing, but...

Tien-Chi and I still had a 3-turn NAP in effect when he attacked me without warning. Make of that whatever you will. : )

[sum1lost]

Eh. I just attacked C'tis, but we do not have an NAP in effect. And I was bored.

[parcelt]

The vile nation of Yomi made the fatal mistake of initating agression against the C'tis empire. If he owes you any money, gems, or favours, we suggest you collect these asap. C'tis is a peaceful and honorable nation. However, such treacherous acts of agression cannot be left unpunished. Yomi will soon cease to exist.

[Snacktime]

FYI Caelum attacked me last turn as well. But we had no treaty, so fair enough.

I'm actually a bit relieved, it's been a weird, long period here without any fighting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[sum1lost]

Totally not treacherous at all.

We just want to give the lizards a hug. An icey hug of death from the grave, but a hug nonetheless.

I'd also like to remind the lizards of our agreement prior to war.

[Warhammer]

I'd like to request everyone to do a write up of this game afterwards. I think it would be interesting.

[sum1lost]

The nation of yomi sat in their corner. At one point the men and goblins had a war with the naked men to the south. There was great slaughter, until the demons of yomi joined the field, and waves of fire, darkness, and great spinny blades swept the naked men from the field, even as the naked men sought to strike back with slings and magic punches through space.

Then, they sat around as everyone else beat eachother up, and researched and recruited more demons. Recently, they declared war on the lizards too.

[parcelt]

Sounds like a good idea (the write-up).

Yomi, that's a good start but don't bother, C'tis will be writing the rest of your history. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

We will honor the agreement you mentioned.

[IndyPendant]

Here, as promised, was the game, from my viewpoint.

First, my mistakes: poor pretender design, and not concentrating enough of research leaders. Taking Misfortune-3, so that regularly 1-3 provinces a *TURN* were rebelling in some way. (Never, ever, EVER taking Misfortune, EVER again!) Not site-searching early enough. Also, constant warring is *badt*; I had to put all my resources into troops, and not enough into leaders. Caused a snowball effect causing me to be *way* too far behind on research, despite being one of the largest nations for much of the game. --Which, btw, only painted a great big target on my forehead. Causing more wars. Vicious cycle. Too many castles built, and poor positioning for one of them. Trusting *anyone* to keep their word.

Second, the whining: I've decided that Caelum's army *SUCKS*. Elephants are good for early expansion, but are too easy to rout mid-to-late game. Caelum's infantry is laughably pathetic, and their archers are only passably good. Their extreme mobility helps, but hit-and-run tactics can only get you so far; eventually you have to face your opponent's army directly, and when you do you need *at least* a 2-to-1 superiority to even have a *chance* at winning. And even then you will often lose. Eagle Kings are powerful air mages, but at 400 a pop they're hard to mass, and since my research sucked this game...*shrug*.

--And my position! It didn't help that I was the *only* player who started in the middle of the map, with *every* player as a neighbour! And! With only four neighbouring provinces to my capital--one of which was a plains, and the other a 'blank' province. Compare that to, for example, Yomi's start, which was (if I got it right) in a corner of the map, with no less than six neighbouring provinces, *all* of which were mountains and/or forests. Arguably, only Oceania's was worse. Heh. Thanks, Llamabeast...*sigh*. My opponents were all tripping over themselves for the chance to take me out before anyone else did! Corner start for me next game, please.

/whine off

[IndyPendant]

Now the game. As mentioned, I find myself starting in the middle of the map. Grand, I think: this will be a short and brutal game. I slowly build up an army to start expanding--and quickly discover I have done so *too* slowly; Marverni and Lanka both end up conquering provinces only two short hops away from my capital. Absolutely unacceptable, of course. I conquer the big, juicy Plains that Lanka took near my capital, and send a message to Marverni that essentially reads "I don't want an early war, but I can't allow you to be so close to my home province. My fault, for not expanding fast enough early game, so I offer you a trade: what would you like for these three provinces?"

Now, I'm expecting almost *anything* from "Screw you, they're mine" to "Fine, I want all the provinces south of the mountain range" to "Tithe me 100g for ten turns" to "1200 gold, up front, and they're yours" to "Join me in an early war with Yomi". Almost anything, in fact. Except what he actually did: "I think not", and conquering one of my own provinces--which was also one of my capital's neighbours, to boot!

*blink*

Well, at least we're clear. Early war it is. Time to get on the diplomacy bandwagon. I desperately scream "HELP!!!" at Yomi: "Join me in this war against Marverni, and I'll even let you take their capital!" (--This was a minor 'sacrifice' for me, btw; I've found I hate sieging castles, particularly early-game, and with size-3 Caelum. They tie up your armies for too long, and you need greatly superior numbers--something I wasn't likely to have for a long time.) Since there's no conceivable way I can survive a two-front war, I 'apologize' to Lanka, move out of 'his' Plains province I had just conquered, tell him he can take it back, and offer the standard 3-turn NAP, all the while thinking pleasepleasepleasedon'tkillme...: ) He agrees with some grumbling, and I secure 3-turn NAPs with C'tis, Tien-Chi, and Oceania. I offer the same to Hellheim, and instead he says he 'won't attack me for six turns, and reassess then'. Hrm. Interesting, that...

It turns out (I think, anyways) that Yomi was already in a war with Marverni when my message reached him. (And if that's true, then I cannot fathom what made Marverni think he could handle a two-front early-game war!) So he seemed more than happy to agree. I start gearing up for war (and thus getting even further behind in my research. *sigh*).

Over the next eight turns or so, I chase Marverni's smaller army all over my territories. Once we even exchanged places. (Let me take this moment to explain that I had misunderstood a fundamental rule of Dom3: I had somehow come to think that the order armies attack enemy provinces is determined randomly. So I should have had a 50-50 chance of attacking his army before it could attack another province of mine, right? After roughly six or seven turns of chasing him all over the map, I began to think I was--just possibly, mind you--wrong. A post on the main forums later, and I discover that indeed, I am wrong. *sigh* More wasted turns. Grand.)

At least my other mini-armies have been busily conquering his other territories--and gobbling up the gold mine of indie territories I discovered south of the mountain range! For some insane reason, Marverni and Hellheim--the only others with access to that area--hadn't moved into those territories yet. (Marverni at least had an excuse; he was busily trying to survive a two-front war he started. I can't understand what was going through Hellheim's head though!)

Meanwhile, Yomi keeps throwing armies at Marverni, and Marverni keeps destroying them. The two of them spend most of the entire war apparently fighting over the same single province, neither able to move beyond it. Right around the time I discover my army-movement mistake, Marverni makes a beeline with that smaller army right for his own capital--where another stronger army is just coming out and moving on my home capital. And all I've got nearby is a smaller indie-conquering army, and the army that had spent the last 8+ turns or so chasing him everywhere.

Hrm. Okay, *now* I'm a little nervous.

What can I do, what can I do? His merged armies will destroy mine. Hrm. Well, he's making a bee-line for my capital..and in order to do that he'll have to move through this provinces...that is three provinces away from my capital! Hmm!

I research Evocation like mad, build a bunch of flyers, and move two of my mini-armies into that province. Just before Marverni moves into it, I dump *FORTY* PD into that province, move my fliers there, all of my Eagle Kings (a whopping FOUR of them. *sigh*). Marverni steps confidently into my trap, and their army gets annihilated. Stomped on. Crushed. The only thing I failed to do was kill his pretender (awww...:)

And then in real life, I go away on a trip, send Llamabeast *three* messages (long story) asking him to delay the turn, announce it in the forums...and still stale out. Right when indie heroes random-event attack my *capital*, and besiege my home fortress. For two turns. And also allowing Marverni to recover a bit, starving TWO of my armies in low-supply provinces down south, etc. Grr...

Nevertheless, a few turns later, I'm by Marverni's capital, mopping him up. I make him another offer: I keep the territories I conquered, and we go to 3-turn-NAP status. Admittedly, the offer sucked for him, cuz I had taken most of his provinces--but it was his only chance of survival, allowing him to concentrate on Yomi exclusively. Beggars can't be choosers, after all. His response? "Ah, so you are growing afraid. I have crushed Yomi's army, and now I can concentrate on you!" And then Yomi sends me a message: "I think I can take him, but I need you to provide a distraction."

*blink*

At this point, over about twelve turns, I have kicked Marverni's butt from my capital all the way back to his. While he and Yomi fence back and forth accross essentially the same few territories. Yet I am apparently quaking in my boots at Marverni's vast might. And Yomi wants me to provide a 'distraction'. Uh huh. I honour my agreement with Yomi, and wait for him to conquer Marverni's capital. And wait. And wait.

And Hellheim attacks me.

--Hello, what?

[IndyPendant]

At this point in the game, I've got the most territories by far--I think I owned over 50% more than the second guy. Which, I discovered, is *not* a good position for the guy in the middle of the map. And my research sucked; I might have been at the lowest in the game. My Dominion was only below average, at best. My gem income was piddling. Etc etc.

But I had the most provinces, and so the biggest target painted on my forehead. *sigh*

Tien-Chi and Oceania, for the last little while, had been busily two-teaming Lanka and gobbling up his territories. Something I wasn't unhappy about, since Lanka and I had the worst non-war relationship of all my neighbours (*cough* can't imagine why *cough*). I was also a bit nervous about C'tis, who was sitting pretty in a corner, and quietly never fighting anyone at all.

In all honesty, I wasn't surprised that Hellheim attacked me, cuz I was his only land neighbour. I was just surprised at the *timing*. My war with Marverni was just winding down, after all, allowing me to concentrate on him exclusively--and he was *much* smaller than me, on pretty much *all* the graphs. It was like a five-year-old challenging me to a wrestling match. I offer Hellheim a chance to withdraw his forces and resume a NAP (I don't *want* another war, dammit!!! : ) but he just tells me I should retreat north.

Yeah, right. *sigh*

Shift gears. Again. (Research? Vhat iss diss ting, 'research'?) Start moving my mini-armies down south, and use my fliers' mobility to gobble up a bunch of his provinces guerilla-style, hopping about everywhere like frogs on steroids. I notice he's had even *more* of a barbarian-uprising problem than I have--and then, finally, take a look at his scales. Good gods. Turmoil, Sloth, Death, Misfortune, and Drain. ALL at 3! Wow.

I start pressuring Yomi to take out Marverni once and for all, saying I'll have to do it if he doesn't just to close up that front. Finally, Yomi tells me he's got "one last thing" to try that "should do it". Next turn he slaughters Marverni's defenders. The turn after he takes the castle. Wow. Good tactic, whatever it was...: )

Eventually, I get a large army moving down to Hellheim's castle and besiege it. Then promptly get booted out by his army and sooper-dooper 600-point-buy-or-something SC Pretender. (And yes, contrary to forum posturing, I got my butt handed to me.) Nervous again. Hellheim starts moving north. Oceania and Yomi declare an end to our NAPs.

Oh, come on! Will I *ever* get a break?!?

At this point, I would probably have been ready to throw in the towel--except for C'tis. The puppet master. The evil vizier, hiding behind the king's curtain and whispering in everyone's ears. He had been my best, quietest neighbour--not even taking advantage of no less than THREE barbarian uprisings on our common border, and entering into a lucrative trade with me over a number of turns. He messages me to say that everyone's conspiring to attack me, but he wants to enter an alliance with me. Together we can take out our enemies one by one, and only then turn on each other. All I have to do, is attack Yomi first, and he will join in. Then, I 'only' fend off everyone else attacking me while we both attack Yomi, then the others one by one. --Oh, and that I give him a 'one-time gift' of 60 gems to help solidify the agreement.

Uh huh.

I'm more than a little skeptical of a 'plan' that has me being everyone's focus while C'tis cherry-picks foes and gobbles up provinces in relative safety--but I don't have many options by this point, his plan is plausible--and just might work. Certainly, without his help I'm going down. So I agree. And then start firing dozens of private messages, to every remaining player. Feeling like I'm tapdancing over a sea of spearpoints, desperately holding the slavering wolves at bay just beyond the firelight, I try my best to carrot-and-stick discourage Yomi and Oceania in particular from attacking me. I even get Oceania to renew our 3-turn NAP--only to have him break it again. And I eye C'tis suspiciously, noting that Oceania broke it shortly after I informed my 'ally', C'tis, that we had renewed it.

Hrm.

Meanwhile, back to Hellheim. I Hurricaned his home province no less than FOUR times. Then I did the exact same thing to Hellheim that I did to Marverni: I figured he would be making a bee-line for my home province--and if so he would then attack this province here, next. I move all (and I do mean, all) of my forces to that spot, ratchet up the PD to 50(!!), change my casters' spell selection to better handle undead, and gamble a small force on attacking the one province he controls neighbouring it--so that if he routs, all die. And I *still* lose. (Did I mention how much I *DESPISE* Caelum's laughably pathetic army units?!?)

--But! I killed all but about 15 of Hellheim's units, while retaining roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of my own army and most of my leaders. Hellheim's army was kaput, at least--although he still had his mega-powerful Pretender. I knew he couldn't continue to move forward, and I was about to move the remainder of my army into that province to try to wipe him out for good...when I stopped. And considered. And realized what *I* would do in his situation--which was sneak back through a province I control, under glamour, to his home province and turtle up. So I gambled. Instead of moving to attack, I set my army in that particular province to 'Patrol', increased its PD to 20, and moved the rest of my army to that province. And sure enough, I catch one of his three remaining leaders there, destroying the remainder of his army--and, as an added bonus, catch his pretender, and slay him as well! Hellheim was finally, finally out of the game; all I had to do was mop up the remaining pieces. And it only took nearly all of my military strength to do--

Oceania attacks.

*sigh*

[IndyPendant]

I still haven't been able to research much at all. So I decide, this time, to change that. I basically rant and rave at Oceania a while, promising to drag him down with me if he attacks anwhere other than my southern territories, and apparently intimidate him enough to succeed in stopping his advance beyond those southern provinces--which have all been taxed at 200 for like 20 turns (hey, I didn't actually think I'd be *keeping* them that long! : ), causing 300+ unrest (that's how I did it, btw, Oceania...: ) Oceania doesn't declare an NAP or anything; he just...stops attacking me. Bad news is, he gets Hellheim's capital, and the final kill. Ah well...

And I begin to realize that I just have not been enjoying myself lately. I've been spending more time in Private Messages than actually playing the game, and I'm a builder at heart, not a warrior--yet all I've done this *entire game* is fight, fight, fight, and...oh, btw, fight.

Around this time, Tien-Chi begins sending me PMs asking if I'm okay, and if there's anything he can do to help. I guess he was nervous, watching my province-graph plummet. What he didn't understand was that a) I didn't want to fight anymore, and b) the only way I could avoid fighting was apparently to STOP HAVING THE MOST {CENSORED} PROVINCES! : ) Yomi ends our NAP, but says he isn't interested in attacking me; he just wants to jump on my corpse if it looks like I'm going down, without feeling guilty about breaking his word. --Oh, and could I be so good as to tell him if I'm going down, so he can snap up some of our neighbouring provinces, and not 200-tax them into oblivion?

*blink*

I...have to laugh. He's direct, I'll give him that!

So I make use of the break by building mages. Screw the army, I need to research, and I want to build, and I have only limited funds...so I'm building. Start producing Eagle Kings and Harab Seraphs. And...notice that the disease messages I have been getting are continuing. "This province loses xxx population to disease." Wait, what? I had assumed that was Hellheim! But Hellheim is dead! --Hrm. Then my *leaders* in my castles finally start to get diseased, not just random provinces. I go heavy on the patrols in my home castles.

And lo and behold, expose a Harvester of Sorrows in one of my castles--and owned by C'tis. That turn, he sends me a private message stating that the Harvester was on its way to Yomi, and sorry about that. Now, take a look at Mara; the Harvester was exposed in the Kingdom of Dhara (69). Notice anything strange about that province? Yep, it's not on the way to anything! When I call C'tis on that, he starts babbling about not knowing there was a castle there, cuz the Harvesters fly-3. And that he 'didn't know' they would cause diseases so fast; I guess by that, he was trying to say that he figured if he kept them moving, they wouldn't cause harm. Yuh huh. I threaten him out of my lands--and since he apparently didn't want a war with me at that time, he complies. I pretend to be 'mollified'--but I don't pretend well. I'm not mollified all that much, and I'm pretty sure he knows it.

So much for the 'alliance'.

And my 'fun' meter drops down another notch.

I'm realizing that my attempt at researching and building leaders is pretty much too little, too late. I don't have any real gem production, I'm too far behind on research, my army is the second-weakest in the game, and I'm spending half my time stomping rebellions. And yet...a strange lull sets in, for everyone. No one attacks anyone.

Yay! I can build!

C'tis tells me he's ended his NAP with Yomi, and he'll be attacking in three turns. Will I join him? *sigh* Yeah, I will...but since I no longer trust C'tis at all, I'll be waiting for him to attack Yomi, thenkyouverymuch. And...lo and behold, three turns pass, and C'tis doesn't attack Yomi! Oh, and look! Now that I've exposed C'tis, the "Diseased Province" messages I have been suffering for over a year have completely stopped! Shocker!

Meanwhile, Oceania is building more and more forces on our borders, and Tien-Chi is slowly coaxing me into a mutual, simultaneous strike against him. I agree, cuz Oceania is the biggest threat atm--but I'm made nervous by the fact that C'tis is *also* building on my borders. Both his Harvesters sit on our mutual border, there a ton of chariots in the middle province, and his castle has a huge number of summons. We have an 'alliance', but would he hesitate to break it if it would suit his needs? Yeah, right. Yomi has really given no indication he would attack me--but he also has huge armies on my borders, and he and I don't even have a working NAP!

For no particular reasons--nothing anyone has done, in particular--my 'fun' meter slowly ratchets down a bit more. I begin to think that maybe I'm just...getting burnt out.

I decide to try one last tactic. I've researched Evocation-7, Construction-6, and Alteration-7. Let's try boosting my Eagle King's air magic, getting a couple Staffs of Storms, casting Mist Warriors, and nuking everything with like 20 leaders and 80 Iron Crows. Meanwhile, my elephants will go underwater. We get it timed up, and I move into position, finally ready to coordinate with Tien-Chi. Tien-Chi mentions that he has been moving forces into a province that neighbours two of mine (alarm bells), positioning himself so that he can 'pretend' to be attacking me *alarm bells*, but we will attack at the same time *ALARM BELLS*.

And...I just don't care all that much, anymore.

Which is probably why I move my flier-army, but in rearranging my magic items, accidentally cancel my underwater-elephant army's move orders. Tien-Chi sends me a 'what-the-heck?' message, but I'm already too nervous about Oceania. They're going to attack me. So I tell him he can join in on my attack if he wants, or wait a turn while I prove that I will attack Oceania. Since C'tis *still* hasn't attacked Yomi, 8-10

And--despite the fact that I have *no* armies on his borders--the same turn my flier army destroys one of Oceania's, and move my elephants into position for an underwater strike--Tien-Chi takes two of my provinces. Yep, *my* provinces. Not Oceania's. Shocker. Again. Tien-Chi sends me a message along the lines of "you were taking too long, so I figured you weren't going after him, and attacked you instead". Yuh huh. Just another filthy liar. And, just to add icing to the cake, barbarians rebel that same turn. For like the 1293847123947th time this game. In one of my home castle's neighbouring provinces.

Still, there's a little good note in this--I now want to destroy Tien-Chi. C'tis might, just possibly, have *somehow* been telling the truth earlier. Tien-Chi's betrayal is unequivocal and total. A brief resurgence of interest in the game! I send a PM to Oceania telling the absolute truth--that I had attacked him preemptively cuz I knew that he would be attacking me soon if I did not. That I no longer *care* if I win or lose, so long as I get to take down Tien-Chi in the process. That I even would offer him to join me against Tien-Chi if he wants. Oceania says he's going to 'take a small bite' out of me first, then hop aboard. I warn him that I won't tolerate more than a truly small bite; if he wants some vengeance, that's understandable, but unless he wants

And, well...you all know what happens. Next turn, Oceania's 'small bite' is like 1/3 of my provinces. Tien-Chi destroys 1/3 of my armies, Oceania blasts the leader-army down to roughly 3/4 of its strength. C'tis moves his Harvesters back into my provinces. I am no longer a contender in the game. I could repel Oceania *or* Tien-Chi--but not both. I'm done. Kaput.

Thank. *GOD*.

These MP games have soured Dom3 for me, for a while at least. I'm just not good at MP games with strangers. Too much betrayal, backstabbing, and downright vicious evil. It's just...not my style of game. I'm going back to GalCiv2 for a while. : )

More power to you. Have fun, the lot of you.

However, one thing about this writeup: it's been both cathartic, and head-clearing. You know what? I'm not going A.I. yet. I'm not going to make it that easy for you.

Yomi, you've been the *only* one that's stuck to your guns and played completely fair. (Oceania, you came close, but...I just can't forgive that last landgrab. And I did make you a promise I intend to keep to the best of my rapidly-reducing abilities...: ) So this turn, I'm giving you everything I own. Go ahead and take my provinces; I'll fight to the death against the others, but let you have whatever you can conquer without a fight (including the castles). (Assuming you're interested, that is!)

I lean slightly in favour of Yomi's winning. Oceania is a close second--but I did promise I would do my best to take you down with me if you attacked, Oceania! Since I can't do it myself, I'll try to help Yomi do it. Keeping my word, and all that. But, best of luck you two. May the best player win.

I certainly have learned a *lot* from these two MP games. (Including the fact that I hate them. : )

[IndyPendant]

The end. : )

Not sure if anyone's going to read all of that through (it's one *heckuva* long read!), but I enjoyed writing it regardless.

Have fun!

[parcelt]

Ahem.... isn't the idea behind a write-up normally that you do it once the game is finished?? You know, so not to give away anything that could still be relevant to others?

Too bad you don't seem to have been enjoying the game though. I'd think with everything Caelum went through, and considering how well you've been doing despite difficult starting position, etc, you'd have had more fun?

[Warhammer]

Maybe I should have bolded the afterwards.

[sum1lost]

I don't think it gave away anything I didn't already know about. I've been aware of harvesters for some time- patrols went up as soon as a province of mine had the such and such people have died event.

[Warhammer]

It still would have been better if it hadn't been posted yet. I was thinking after the game. There are a few things in his posts that would be very different from my point of view.

[IndyPendant]

I was not even thinking about any game-revealing strategies. Like I said, this was a catharsis for me, and I also wanted to at least try to explain why I was dropping out of the game. This *is* "afterwards" for me. : ) I suppose this is a bit more 'believable' than a he-said-she-said "We had an NAP!" "No we didn't!" type of thing.

On the other hand...I do find it interesting that the two biggest backstabbing liars in the game (at least, from my point of view) are also the ones objecting the loudest to my writeup being released 'early'. And your objection is based on moral grounds, no less!

Wow. Interesting sense of ethics, there. : )

I am eager to see this game from other viewpoints. I can't help but wonder how many other darkened-room dealings there were that I *wasn't* aware of...

[parcelt]

Jeez, you really seem to hold a grudge easily. I mean, just a little accident with that harvester (whether you believe my explanations or not), and now I am a biggest backstabbing liar?? We also had some mutually beneficial dealings earlier in the game, IIRC?

Anyways, if that's how you want to take it. I should say that if little things like that, or discussions about NAPs and whether they're violated or not, etc, are such game-ruining experiences for you, you're better of not playing MP (as you mentioned yourself I think). Too bad, I thought it was a nice game.

[Warhammer]

The game from everyone's viewpoints are going to be dramatically different. I was hoping for a post-game from everyone because this has been such a great game, from my standpoint.

What has separated this game from the other Dominions MP games I have played has been the diplomatic aspect. Diplomacy has played a much larger role in this game than in any of the other games I have played (a whopping total of 2, one before, and one I started after this one). Anytime you have diplomacy in a game, you are going to have a he-said/she-said post-mortem. People view things in the context of their surroundings.

I'm going to have a fair sized post-mortem when all is said and done. I'm going to go turn by turn to do it, because things were nuts for a while.

If this game turned you off from MP Dominions, I would suggest trying another game. But, be forewarned any game that has as much diplomacy as this one did (my other Dom3 MP games you could hear a pin drop), is going to arouse passions.

[sum1lost]

Well, crap.

I'll do my best to get my turns in, but uni stuff has got my *** beat. I don't really have the time to complete my turns consistently, even on a weekly basis. I'll do my best, but I will inevitably stale a few rounds here and there.

[parcelt]

If it would help you out I wouldn't mind moving to for example a 48hr schedule?

[Warhammer]

I'd certainly be up for doing this. We can keep it on quick host so if we get the turns in early we can keep it moving.

[Warhammer]

OK, executive decision time here, we're moving to 48 hour host and leaving quick host on.

[fungalreason]

I played Maverni in this, and made just about every mistake you can. I thought this was going supposed to be a newbie game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Anyway... the game starts, I try to expand quickly. End up choosing to traverse the mountains because it seems like there's more room there. I probably would have done better by expanding south and just fortifying a natural chokepoint. I receive a message from Caelum asking me to turn over 3 lands. Doing so would leave me FAR behind in territories and completely cut off any room to expand. I didn't think I had any option. In fact the request was so unreasonable, I assumed his message was simply an excuse to instigate war. Therefore I decided to take a more aggressive response.

I attack, and send out messages to negotiate a NAP with the only other neighbor I knew about at that point, Yomi. Unfortunately, I was way too late on the diplomatic front. He attacked the SAME turn (Hadn't received any messages at that time, so I probably should have been more on guard).

Basically I knew at that point I was screwed. I somehow ended up 2 front war while playing a weaker nation. I also hadn't found any Indy provinces that could make scouts so I had no clue who my enemies' neighbors were. So all I could do was make forum posts and hope someone would pick up on the hint and join forces with me against one of them...

I knew my army couldn't take Caelum's head on. My initial plan was to simply avoid his troops, pillage and disrupt what I could, and research up to something that could deal with the mammoths. However, Yomi's attack forced me to pull mages off research to defend. At that point, I could only hope for luck or aid from some outside source... it didn't come.

I split forces and tried to send one squad to deal with one of Caelums armies that was marching through my lands. The Caelum strike force ended up not having enough chaff, and lost half my mages. This is when I realized my pretender was awful. I really should have gone with a SC of some sort. Mammoths just trampled everything I had. The other force was fairly successful at fending off Yomi's first wave, but having little income, and minimal research at this point made it just a waiting game. Yomi's Blade winds and fireballs sealed my fate.

Caelum offered peace when I was down to 2 or 3 lands. But I sent an antagonistic reply simply to ensure my swift demise. I was out of the game, and I was pretty sure the two of them were allied by then anyway.. so why bother?

That's about it from my end. I had fun even though I got crushed. At least I learned to spend more time figuring out and/or testing a good pretender design for nations I play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Snacktime]

Nice summary fungal - had no idea what happened to you really, I was 100% underwater back then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hey great idea to move to 48 hour hosting. I am pretty busy at work too and was pretty sure I would stale once this weekend as it was. Everyone accommodated my trip over Labor Day so I feel if sum1won needs more time for turns that's totally fine.

Anyway thanks Warhammer, quickhost will allow us to play faster when everyone is around, and this way the game won't be distorted by stales.

Cheers! Oceania

[sum1lost]

That last battle may have cost C'tis quite a bit. 23 commanders and 50 ghosts gone.

And an artifact.

Still, the top 5 targets were not eliminated. This time. Ah, well.

Its worth mentioning at this point that Caelum and I weren't allied at any point. I had just attacked when he sent a message to me asking for help.

[Warhammer]

Well, when he publicly invites you to take his provinces so he can kamakaze his army, it is almost just as well.

[sum1lost]

Accidently subimitted a half-finished turn last round. Apologies to all.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Thanks for clearing up the Marverni end of things, Fungal. I can see how you would think my initial 'offer' was just an excuse for war--it wasn't, but heck it was a reasonable conclusion, and I may have shot my own foot off for my campaign by being so, uuuh...'direct' with you. And the fact that Yomi attacked you the same turn you attacked my neighbouring province goes a long way towards explaining what was happening from your side! : )

You know, I'm doubly glad I didn't just go A.I. after all. I've been able to hurt Tien-Chi all out of proportion to my current power level. How many leader-turns, and hundreds of gems, have been used up in rituals trying to weaken my army and leaders? How many hundreds of Tien-Chi's units have I killed? (Over 200 in just this last turn's battle!) How many turns and armies have been wasted maneuvering armies around in an attempt to take me out of the game? Now I'm down to one. single. province.

And *I'm still heeeeeeeeeeere!* : )

Vengeance against the backstabbing liar aside, I'm actually kind of curious now to see just how long I *will* last. Oceania can safely ignore me now (assuming he's so inclined), since I have no intentions of risking my final bastion of defense in any sorties against him.

Tien-Chi cannot however. Because if he does, then I'll simply wait. Until he's in the middle a war with someone else. And then begin to expand outwards once more. (There are three particularly juicy Tien-Chi controlled plains provinces nearby!) So, waste more gems and/or units taking me out of the game entirely--while the other players who don't have to bother with annoying little ol' me continue to grow unhindered--or leave me there and risk having me gobble up some provinces later on. Either way, Tien-Chi, I bleed you a bit more before I'm truly done.

And the real irony in all of this is that Tien-Chi and I could have been true allies. Together we probably could have taken out Oceania, particularly since Yomi and C'tis went to war on the same turn. But I guess Tien-Chi was the scorpion, I was the frog, and now (I hope!) he drowns with me.

It's wierd. I've been enjoying myself more these last ten turns or so, in the role of righteous avenger, controlling but one army flying around harrassing Tien-Chi (and taking a few nibbles at Oceania as well), and preparing for the inevitable turtling-up in my home province...I've been enjoying the game more now than I have since I sensed everyone wanting to gang up on the poor winged folk in the middle, oh, 30 turns or so ago.

It will also be interesting to see if Yomi and/or C'tis will become foolish/desperate enough to consider anything approaching an alliance with Tien-Chi. Guys, all I can say is, watch your backs if you do. Carefully.

And what the heck's going on with the two of you, anyways? That's a pretty tepid war you have going on, there...; )

[sum1lost]

Most of the losses have been heavily equipped mages and commanders.

[IndyPendant]

Ah yes, that would make sense. You two have been all about the leaders from the beginning. I should have realized that. ; )

And Tien-Chi...tsk tsk. Some more gems lost to rituals to try to weaken me. Over 200 more of your units ground to bits by my apparently vast, single-province power. And I'm still here, waiting to kill more of your forces.

Bring it!

[Warhammer]

Actually aside from the guy that I had teleported in, most of those losses are losses I can afford. The guy with the gems that fought you single handedly and was going to cast a couple of essential spells for my army that attacked that turn, that was a big loss.

[sum1lost]

I have midterms this week, so would it be possible to extend hosting time until sometime saturday? Thank you.

[Warhammer]

Ack! Just got this, I will push it back.

[Warhammer]

Pushed back to this weekend.

[Snacktime]

by the way, good luck with your midterms sum1!

[IndyPendant]

Heh. I should check this thread more often. Yes, hope you, err, *had* good luck with the midterms, sum1won...

Just came by to make a comment: *TWO* 'huge barbarian hordes' attacking my home province. In a row, these past two turns. *snarl* --Never. EVER. Taking Misfortune-3 again. I'm experimenting with Misfortune-1 right now, which seems one HELLuva lot more handleable...

Oh. And...

...still here. ; )

[Snacktime]

What should we do about the patch? Anyone know?

[Warhammer]

I think we should probably all apply the patch, but that is just me. I think we should wait until this turn is run though.

[sum1lost]

Thank you to everyone for the wishes. They aren't actually over, so if it is possible, I'd like another extension to friday, though I've gotten over the hump.

[Snacktime]

Llama Server says we're on Turn 73, but that's not right, is it? I sent in my Turn 72 but I never got a turn file resolving that turn. Anyone know whats going on? I really hope I didn't lose my turn file and now have to redo it.

[llamabeast]

Weird. Fixed.

[llamabeast]

Okay yep, I set it back and resubmitted all your turns, and now it's hosted. Hope that's all good now. It was presumably some weird side effect of the patch issue. This seems to be the only game affected.

[sum1lost]

I'd like to thank C'tis for a very, very fun war. I learned a lot from fighting you.

[IndyPendant]

Hmm, have we all upgraded the patch? I get an error message when I try to load this next turn saying my Dom3 version isn't up to date.

I want to patch; MA Tien-Chi is one of my favourite nations for example, and I want to see what goodies they received. But I've been holding back until we decided here, just in case...

[Snacktime]

Yes, patch is mandatory for this game I'm pretty sure.

[IndyPendant]

Aww...looks like I'm finally, finally done. All that's left is to hope I hampered the buggerer sufficiently enough for Oceania or Yomi to take him down.

Tien-Chi has lost *hundreds* of gems to spellcasting. Dozens of cold and fire spells cast at my home province. Gems given to leaders to cast spells in battle, attempting to take me out. Melancholia alone was cast, what, 4 times? 3 at least! 20 Earth Gems each time! Then there's the hundreds of units lost in trying to take me down--maybe even over a thousand in total. Over 25 leaders, at least 12 of them potential researchers, kept busy for nearly twenty turns maneuvering into position and trying to take me out, as well as the leaders that wasted research/crafting time zapping my home province. And for a lot of that time, I was 200-taxing and patrol-killing my home population off, so that there were 7,500 people left when I was finally defeated (I only wish I had thought of doing that earlier so there would have been nothing left).

Now it's up to you guys. I hope my efforts make a difference--and enough of a difference--in the end! Take him down.

Warhammer, if you hadn't been such a filthy, manipulating, backstabbing liar, I wouldn't have tried so hard, for so long, and so stubbornly, to do my damnedest to ensure you lost this game.

*shrug* All I can hope is that this is a lesson you are capable of learning, and carrying on to your next games.

Was it worth it? ; )

[Warhammer]

Dang right it was worth it. I made the player with the most provinces take himself out of the game.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Wow. More lies, concentrated crap in one sentence. Let's see...

1) I didn't have the most provinces when you played me. Nowhere near it, and I hadn't for around 10 turns by then. That would be what we call, another 'lie'. And a foolish one too, since a simple F2-check by the other players will prove it. (The fact that I wasn't the most powerful player, btw, was one reason why I figured you wouldn't betray me, despite the signs; it would have been stupid to do so.)

2) You didn't get me to take myself out of the game. You motivated me to stay as long as I could just as my interest in the game was flagging--as I told you it was, in our private messages--so that I could do you as much damage as possible. Which was the opposite effect you apparently intended. Good job there. --Oceania took me out of the game, by taking too many provinces for me to recover from.

3) I even offered to let you wait one turn while I attacked Oceania--who, of course, did have by far the most provinces at that time. So you could have had it all--Oceania and I at each others' throats, while you 'helped' take out the most powerful nation in the game. Oceania. After he and I were committed to a war with each other. Instead, you've only weakened yourself severely. (Another reason your betrayal surprised me; I was expecting self-interest.) So not only are you a backstabbing liar, you were *stupid* about it, too. (Noticing a theme?) You really were the scorpion stinging the frog. Know the parable? May want to look it up if not, cuz you obviously haven't learned the lesson.

4) Thanks for confirming the type of person you are.

Note that I don't begrudge the loss of the game. Oceania and I end well, and *he* is the direct cause of my losing the game. He's the one that took a bunch of provinces from me just as I defeated Helheim, and he's the one that took 1/3 of my remaining provinces just after you backstabbed me. He played well, and he beat me, so I tip my hat to him in friendly respect. Yomi, Marverni, and Helheim get the same. I exclude Lanka *only* cuz we didn't really interact. C'tis I eye warily, cuz it is possible his was unintentional. Tien-Chi, on the other hand...

Anyways. Impressive job. It only took you fifteen turns or more, and at least five serious attempts, to take out my final province.

I think I'm done wasting time and space on you, even though I enjoy writing for the sake of writing. Unless that is, your own posts continue to mimic what comes out your butt.

[parcelt]

Greetings everybody, just a note to let you all know that I am going AI this turn. This was my second MP game, and I had a blast in addition to learning a lot.

To Yomi, thanks for a good fight. Looking back, even though I managed to hurt you a few times I think, I probably never had a real chance with my over-reliance on undead units. But that's one of the lessons learned I guess. It was nevertheless a lot of fun with some great battles.


Hope you all have a good rest of the game, it seems there's plenty of potential for some truly epic fights.

[sum1lost]

I think that this game may be just about over, especially given how badly my last few turns were played. Still, I should have had sent him in with a few more death gems. A few more bone grindings may have routed Oceania. I've got two tartarians left who can give a fair fight, but I think that my SCs have not been deployed well.

I do have one challenge left- I challenge any one of your commanders, deity or otherwise, to a duel against any one of my commanders. I want to see who can field the greatest champion.

[Snacktime]

I got lucky to intercept your Dai Oni army depleted from your war with C'tis.

My bet is Tien Chi would like to continue, but I'll let him decide. We still have an NAP, so he needs to give me three turns notice before he attacks me anyway.

As for the duel, how would we make that happen? I like the idea.

[sum1lost]

I'm thinking that we should prepare a specific field for the event- use ghost riders or some such to make it neutrel, so we have an equal chance of first attack. Morale shouldn't matter too much, so I have no real preference on dominion.

I'd like to suggest no spells beyond divine ones cast in the duel, but if you would prefer, we can allow spell casting. I personally think that allowing for spell casting would give my commanders an immense advantage, as I believe that I have more magical diversity than you and possess blood magic, but we can do it either way.

I would like to pause the war for a season or so as we prepare our respective commanders and move them to the front, though.

If you like, we can send in two or three champions, though I may need some resources to fix/replace the third.

[Warhammer]

Yes, I want the game to go on.

Regarding an NAP, I don't think we ever had one in writing. We started against Lanka and took him down and agreed not to go after each other, but I don't think we ever had an official NAP. I could be wrong about that though.

[Cicadian]

Warhammer, are you still planning to do your write-up after the game finishes? If so I would be interested to read it, as I'm playing EA Tien Chi in my first MP game and since you seem to have pretty much won, you obviuosly had an effective strategy with them!

[Snacktime]

Warhammer has "pretty much won." Hehe! Let's just say you are mistaken. But Warhammer/Tien Chi is clearly in second place.

Warhammer, we do have an NAP with 3-turn warning, from ages ago. I will honor it unless you dishonor it.

sum1, as Tien Chi wants to continue, I will continue fighting you as normal, so no dueling as of yet. If either I or Warhammer decide to throw in the towel and you are still around, I like the idea. It would be interesting either with casting or without.

[Warhammer]

I wouldn't say I pretty much have this won, but I think I would put up a good fight either way. Oceania is running first by a good margin right now, but I figure making it to the end game is a win.

[Warhammer]

Regarding the NAP, I seriously don't think we ever made one. The closest thing I have was that we should proceed in NAP mode from a note back on 8/20. But, there was nothing more definitive than that. I am willing to be proven wrong, but I can't find anything other than that.

For the record, I'm willing to honor it if it is there, but I really don't think we ever made one. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this has a big effect on what happens in the next few turns (obviously).

I really do want to continue this game because I think there is still stuff to be determined.

[Snacktime]

I'm happy to continue the game. My recollection is that we had a 3-turn NAP. It has been a long time since we discussed it though, and maybe it was just a general NAP.

If you want to break the NAP right now, I think that's fine and honorable, as it means no sneak attacks - we can both attack each other this turn. Or, if you want to keep the NAP for some additional number of turns, that's fine too. Let me know, obviously it affects my decisions a bunch too.

[Snacktime]

Also to be clear, I think Yomi is basically defeated now, but since we've never fought and you are much larger than Yomi, there's no way to say I will beat you yet.

[Warhammer]

Tell you what, let's consider this turn the notification and after the next turn, everything is fair game, ok?

For the record, you probably will win, but I have a few tricks up my sleeve.

[Snacktime]

Quite fair Warhammer. See you on the battlefield!

[sum1lost]

Would you care for me to participate in this skirmish, or no?

[Warhammer]

I have no problem with it, I still need to deal with Caelum and C'tis.

[sum1lost]

So, last turn I definitely forgot that the turn was due until 8 minutes before, so it didn't turn out too well, I'm thinking.

[Warhammer]

Warhammer said:
Tell you what, let's consider this turn the notification and after the next turn, everything is fair game, ok?

For the record, you probably will win, but I have a few tricks up my sleeve.



Snacktime, how did you interpret this? I meant one thing, but this can mean something else as well. I want to make sure we are on the same page.

EDIT: Meaning I can see where attacks this turn can be justified or not...

[Snacktime]

I thought you meant we could attack each other this turn that we are currently doing, but now I see what you're saying. I haven't done my turn yet, so you tell me. It's fine either way, I think the only way it's a big advantage to someone is if one person attacks a turn ahead of the other.

Also, and I hate to do this, but can we delay the turn clock until Monday? I am going out of town this weekend and unexpectedly won't have internet due to a broken wireless card without time to fix. I don't think I'll have time to do my current turn before I go.

Let me know, and thanks a lot.

[Warhammer]

I will delay the turn.

Yes, we can attack each other this turn. That was what I meant, but I saw where it could be interpreted to mean next turn. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

[Snacktime]

I don't understand the clock listed on llamaserver any more. the real time right now is 16:16 gmt monday, october 22. but llamaserver says its 15:16 gmt right now, and that last update was at 17:05, both Sunday Oct 21. It also says next turn is due by 7:05 gmt on Monday, Oct 22, but that has already passed.

Anyway I will be able to do my turn within 10 hours, which would seem to be soon enough according to llamaserver's weird clock, but who knows.

[Warhammer]

I thought I pushed back the hosting again...

[Warhammer]

I just pushed it back again, and I also sent in my turn this morning. My guess is the server crashed.

[Snacktime]

Thanks a bunch, I will be back on track after work today (I'm on EST)

[Warhammer]

I probably am not going to win this thing, but if I had about 5 more turns before going toe to toe with Oceania, I think I might have been able to.

I know this will probably drive Caelum nuts, but his intransigence actually helped me quite a bit by giving me time to catch up in the research race which is going to help out quite a bit now.

If I would have taken him out quick, that would have pitted me against Oceania earlier which would have gotten me killed quick.

One more thing, congrats to everyone who has made it this far. Anything can happen at this point, I consider making the final three the big accomplishment, granted winning the whole thing would be better, but this is a realistic goal.

[sum1lost]

I have less of a chance of winning this.

Damn. If that tartarian had been a titan instead of a monstra, I think that I could have stopped oceania in his tracks.

[IndyPendant]

Doesn't drive me nuts. Once you've proven yourself such a skilled liar, I don't accept anything you say without evidence. And one look at the game's graphs and globals shows that the only thing Tien-Chi is even on a similar level with Oceania on is Army Size and, arguably, Dominion. Everywhere else Oceania blows Tien-Chi out of the water.

But I 'helped' you, cuz of course Oceania was just sitting on his hands the whole time you 'built up'. --Again, by attacking me, all you did was remove the uncertainty of whether or not you could still win the game. Whatever your pretend to claim. *shrug*

[sum1lost]

Indypendant, army size counts for a lot less than you might think in the late game. One of my commanders, with two pieces of mediocre equipment, and three spells (Had he cast the fourth, he would have been fine) nearly stopped Oceania's army, which included a huge number of sea trolls and one very powerful sea king.

[Warhammer]

Seriously man, you need to chill out about that whole thing. Stop having a persecution complex.

You let Oceania have your provinces. You didn't combat them. You even posted to that effect earlier in this thread. You went on to say that your whole reason for staying in the game at that point was to deny me a win. Fair enough.

Since Oceania and I are at war now, I can come clean about this whole thing.

After Lanka was destroyed, Caelum was the initial target. He was big and menacing at the time, and I knew they could put up some killer armies since they are a SP favorite of mine. Around that time, Helheim was destroyed. Oceania went flying up in the province count, and I realized that he would have to be dealt with. Caelum had contacted me about this, or maybe I contacted Caelum, I can't find the first PM in that thread, anyway, my target changed from Caelum to Oceania.

My fears regarding Oceania revolved around the fact that I had been worried about them getting "critical" land mass. After they joined in to finish Helheim, I noticed that they had really jumped up in provinces. So, I talked to C'tis about it, and started talking to Caelum about it. Meanwhile, Oceania is badgering me about going after Caelum at this time, who was the original target. The problem is, I needed to research construction 6 so I could get the good water items. Get that researched, then I have to transfer all the stuff to the front lines. Meanwhile, Caelum has patched things up with Oceania.

My fear all along, was that Caelum was trying to separate C'tis and Oceania from working with me. I forget who sent me a PM about this, but regardless, I knew there was some talk of this. I pointed out to C'tis that Caelum had been moaning about being in the middle of the board, everyone could gang up on him, etc., just before he annihilated that nation. So in all my dealings with Caelum, I am wary. Perhaps I was looking for something to be wary of, I don't know. But, my dealings with Caelum were much less cut and dry in complete contrast to my dealings with both Oceania and C'tis.

Anyway, trying to buy time for my move against Oceania who about now is really wanting me to go after Caelum, I suggest to Caelum that I take several of his provinces to buy a couple of turns so I could hit Oceania hard. I would pay him the income from the provinces and even suggested him sending an army down to "retake" the provinces later (i.e. after I hit Oceania).

The general gist of the strategy was to have Caelum hit the northern territories while I hit the southern territories. Meanwhile, I get a note from Caelum about having to watch out for C'tis. This plays up my fears about Caelum splitting my tacit alliances even more. The result was I go on high "screwage" alert at this time. I then shoot a note to Caelum, I privately called it my "Come to Jesus Note" (a play on the "Come to Jesus Meetings" at work) basically outlining my concerns and how I am trying to switch alliances here, and he wasn't making it easy (wish I could find that PM, I see the responses to it, but it doesn't have the original post). Part of the problem was that Caelum's response was the exact sort of wounded response I would have given. That was followed shortly thereafter by Caelum moving an army incorrectly, right before we were to attack Oceania. This just happens to put the army right by me. At this time, being suspicious, I put down a whole bunch of Astral Windows on the Caelum's border provinces with Oceania in the north, the result? I don't see a dang army on their mutual border.

I am at the time for a decision. I basically have to choose one of two options. I can switch alliances and go after Oceania which would be to the benefit of all, but has the big problem of getting screwed in doing so by Caelum hanging over my head. The result would be me being quickly eliminated from the game if things went bad. The other option was to go with the original plan and go after Caelum. The problem here was that Oceania would gain critical mass. My solution is to have C'tis deal with Yomi, since he needed and wanted to do something, and then play mediator between the two to counter the Oceania menace. My end game plan was to get to the final two with C'tis since he and I worked so well together and I felt I would have the upper hand when that time came, primarily due to magic diversity. Yomi would have worked as well, but I knew I would have more problems with them due to their ability to create pretty good SCs. Plus, I hadn't worked with Yomi much throughout the game as I had with C'tis.

Anyway, I am having an absolute nightmare trying to figure out which course to take. I call my buddy that also plays Dom3, only SP though, and talk to him about the situation. He basically agrees with my assessment, and asks the question about how much experience Caelum has in these sorts of games. I say I don't know, and then he basically says that I need to assume the worst.

So, assuming the worst, I opt to stay aligned with Oceania, but... and this is a key part of my thought process, but I will see how Caelum responds to me taking his territory, and see if there is any hope of strong-arming him into going after Oceania. Basically, "I took your territory because I couldn't trust you, are you going to attack Oceania like we discussed, or not? If not, I'll keep on going." However, it never came to that because I saw Caelum's response to my move, and decided that I had misread Caelum (experience playing diplomatic style games), and that there was no point in trying to get him to go after Oceania and repatriating the territory.

From there, I was hoping for a quick knockout, and I would have achieved that if not for the retreat of the big army of Eagle Kings back to his capital. The heck of it is that was the largest and best army in the game at that point. I squandered many of my sacred troops in the first attack, and then in another botched attempt where I didn't realize that someone who teleports/cloud trapezes into a territory fights before your army gets there...

At that point, I realize that I have a valuable tool in my arsenal for building up for the end game. Since Caelum has become my sworn enemy, I can build up my forces and my spell power while I prepare for the knockout blow against Oceania. Unfortunately, squandering a few turns earlier in the game (what killed me was the time and mages lost in taking down Lanka's pretender) was my doom here. If I had 5 turns at most, I think I would be in a very good position vis a vis Oceania.

As Caelum points out, why am I so optimistic? Magic diversity. I have the most diverse magic of anyone on the board right now. Plus, my sacreds can resist most stuff fired at me with the right buff, much better than any other nation's troops. The only problem was I needed a few more turns to prepare.

All in all, it has been a great game. I consider it a success because I did make it to the end game (3 players or so, depends on the flow of the game). That is always my goal in these sorts of games because the start of the game is largely dependent upon who you start next to, and who your neighbor's neighbors are. The mid-game you can show your worth and make your move for the end game. The end game is largely determined by your position entering it. Depending upon the situation, you might have a coalition against you, or you might be able to take everyone on with ease. Either way, the only thing you can consistently count on is making it to the end game.

[Warhammer]

One last note, I am asking IndyPendant to quit with the personal attacks. You obviously play the game differently than I do. Given the situation I was in, I made the move that would help me the most. If you had not moved your army next to my forces on the border with Oceania and myself, I would have attacked Oceania instead. It was in my best interests to attack Oceania at that time, if you were in it with me. Given everything that was happening, I was not sure of that fact.

I do not believe in letting NAPs get in the way of good play. I honor NAPs whenever I can, but I do not make myself a slave to them. Being a slave to an NAP is really sloppy play, in my opinion. In Dagur, for example, Pythium gave notice that he was going to attack me. The 3 turn warning gave me enough time to get my forces back, and I did bloody his nose a bit before the game ended. Yes, he still would have won (he was by far the largest player in that game), but he could have knocked me out in one swift blow if he had just attacked. I knew it was coming, and I would not have been offended or anything, that is part of the game. Eventually, everyone is going to attack everyone else. I am actually really shocked at how this game's community views NAPs as sacrosanct. Losing the game because you need to give someone notice prior to an attack is ludicrous. You can minimize the in game damage by effective negotiation with the other players. Additionally, in any game with a diplomatic side of the equation, someone is going to get stabbed. You don't make a habit of doing it, you live by 99% of your agreements, but if the stab is crucial to the outcome of the game, you do it. C'tis and I had an NAP that lasted the entire game, to both of our benefit. Oceania and I (in going back through our messages) were allied and worked together the entire game, with out any thing more official than "let's keep working together as we are." The big decision in this game is that the "Eastern Alliance" of C'tis, T'ien Ch'i, and Oceania did hold together until the end game. The player who profited the most from this was Oceania by virtue of his position, and his ability to maximize it.

[Warhammer]

Actually neither army size, nor provinces controlled, heck not even gem income mean anything in the game. Yes, they give you a better position, but you have to be able to make use of that position.

Some nations play very well with an SC style. Caelum can do it with their Eagle Kings, properly kitted, C'tis can do it, Yomi can do it, T'ien Ch'i can even do it, albeit they have to have a dedicated focus on that, to the detriment of other strategies.

The province situation can change quickly as we say it did in this game. Had I moved in when I was ready to, rather than rushing as I had to this last turn, I planned on taking 5 or 6 provinces in one go. That can be devastating to anyone. Sure, they can recover, but you can't have many turns like that.

At this point in the game, Yomi and I have to work together to take down Oceania. Is it possible? Yes, is it probable? No. Oceania has played the game too well to this point, and I made a number of mistakes which I won't make next game.

[IndyPendant]

sum1lost said:
Indypendant, army size counts for a lot less than you might think in the late game. One of my commanders, with two pieces of mediocre equipment, and three spells (Had he cast the fourth, he would have been fine) nearly stopped Oceania's army, which included a huge number of sea trolls and one very powerful sea king.


Err, I agree actually. But one of my points was that army size is the *only* thing Tien-Chi equals Oceania on. In every other respect--gems, research, castles, etc--he's at most achieved half of Oceania's score.

And I happen to know that he's wasted literally *hundreds* of gems these last ten turns or so on me alone, trying to take me out earlier than he managed to. So not only does he produce half Oceania's gems, he's lost a ton. I have no idea if or how many gems Oceania has used up on Yomi so far--but I do know that Oceania has two-point-five gem-producing globals up (the astral gem generator sucks--sorry, Oceania : ).

And then you threw in the towel and stated it's pretty much game-over for yourself. All Tien-Chi's (probably) doing is playing more mind-games in an attempt to take away the pleasure I'm obviously (and publicly!) taking, for my part (however small or large it was) in helping to bring him down. --Oh, there's a chance he's even telling the truth as he perceives it; however, once you've proven yourself a liar, *everything* you say becomes suspect, and the charts just don't support his outrageous claims.

That having been said, I was rooting for you too, Yomi. ; ) You or Oceania winning would have suited me fine, and I'm glad you enjoyed yourself! I've decided to join two more MP games, mostly to make sure it isn't the small-minded pricks that have turned me off them. *shrug* We'll see. I might even see you there; I would be happy to play against you again. --I also promise to be less...emo? Not the right term, but best I can come up with atm...much as I've enjoyed calling Tien-Chi out and dragging his butt into the light. I'm hoping revealing his nature did him as much harm as staying alive as long as I did--but that I'll probably never know, for certain. Oh well.

Have fun!

[Warhammer]

I am not making an outrageous claim. Heck, I said that Oceania is probably going to win. What else do you want me to do? I do have a few tricks up my sleeve, and I am banking on the fact that I am much more magically diverse than he is. I think the disparity in our positions is going to be too much to overcome, but we'll see.

[IndyPendant]

Erg. Well, that's annoying and embarrassing. I didn't see Warhammer's previous posts when I posted my response; only Yomi's. Work is busy atm; I'll read and post my response when I have time, before the end of today for sure.

[IndyPendant]

Okay, the posts have been read. I really only have 3 main points to make, that weren't covered already:

First, in your AAR, the army you speak of moved to your border the same turn you attacked me; they passed each other (and that was the only reason I defeated those griffins of yours, and kept that particular province). So you had already attacked me before you even knew the elephants were there--unless by 'on your borders', you mean my capital province. In which case, yes they were stored there until I was ready to move them out, and your statement is incredibly misleading.

Second, you never gave me any hint, at all, that you intended for even a moment to stop your attacks on me in your Private Message. I have quoted it below if anyone still cares about setting the record straight. Stating that you asked if I was going to attack Oceania or not afterwards is a flat-out lie. Another one. --Has to be, cuz you *just finished* quoting that exact PM back to me earlier today! Convenient memory, if you honestly forgot.

Third, you dress it up with pretty words, but essentially your post about NAPs boils down to that you honour them when it's convenient for you to do so. It is interesting that you find it strange that keeping a person's word is important to anyone--you even describe another player another player in another game as foolish for doing so! There's...not much else I can say to this. You've already said it all.

Anyways. I suspect I overstayed my welcome long ago, exposing you. I guess I'm done with this thread, and I don't think I'll be back (although I'm interested to see Oceania and Yomi's AARs!) I'll leave with one last comment: Perhaps some of my assumptions about you were incorrect, but I see the important ones were not. I don't hate you. I would have to respect you, to hate you. I...think I pity you...

...hrm.


Mara - Head's up (Warhammer's PM to me after he backstabbed me)

I'm not going to make any bones about this. I couldn't trust you to do what you said you would so I attacked.

If you notice my commanders are kitted out for attacking Oceania, but after sending troops to the wrong province, mammoths going underwater etc, I see they wind up in a province next to me.

I could not afford to attack Oceania while your mammoths were out for a stroll and have the large Oceania armies in the provinces next to you, Yomi, and C'tis decided to move south against me.

I think you should also know that those mammoths are not going to do a whole lot against my forces. I've got mages that can handle them rather easily.

[Snacktime]

Guys - hate to keep doing this, but any chance we can push the clock back to end of the day Saturday EST? I am swamped at work and I don't think I'll be out at a reasonable time today. Again apologies.

[sum1lost]

Sure.

[Warhammer]

Pushed it back 48 hours, just in case...

[Snacktime]

Hi y'all - I know I've been an extremely annoying person to play against lately, but I am just overwhelmed at work. The craziness should end on Saturday, but until then I don't think I can play more than 1 turn. If there's a way we could put the server on a 6-day timer, just briefly, I will be sure to do one turn in that period but that's all I can do.

If you feel i have worn out my right to request delays that is totally reasonable and I will accept the consequences of staling a turn or two.

Thanks again. I really want to play out this game, I just am swamped right now. I apologize.

[sum1lost]

Its cool. I'll want to ask the same thing during my finals, so go ahead.

[Warhammer]

Well you could always concede! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I'll postpone the turn 144 hours. I don't want the end game tainted, been too good of a game so far.

[Warhammer]

Check that, as soon as I can get back into the server, I will be postponing things... Apparently there was a security breach...

[Snacktime]

Thanks guys. It's been a great game and part of that is because everyone has been cordial and friendly. Really appreciate it.

[Warhammer]

I have not been able to access llamaserver yet. I will keep trying.

[Warhammer]

The game has been postponed.

[Warhammer]

For the record...

I HATE stealthy units that fight... You send them to a province and they default to sneak/hide tactics and don't take part in the battle. THAT'S WHY I SENT YOU THERE! ARGH!

[sum1lost]

Fun battle, warhammer!

Of course, the fatigue spells didn't work the way I wanted.

[Snacktime]

Any interest in calling this a three-way tie? I am finding it hard to get my turns in as you know. While I'm okay this week, my work is going to be crazy for the rest of the year, and I don't think this game can be finished in fewer than 20 more turns.

Under the circumstances the micromanagement required at this stage is getting less fun and even a bit stressful. I think we're at a point where a three-way tie wouldn't feel like anyone getting a raw deal too much. In case Warhammer doesn't know, sum1 gave me a big spanking in a battle two turns ago, so he is definitely not done yet.

In any case, I'm just putting this out there as a possibility. Cheers!

[sum1lost]

3 way tie would be nice. I've got mages of at least level 5 available in every path (including boosters), so I do have magical diversity, and the big spanking was almost as damaging for snacktime as his early raid on my dai oni army was for me.

[Snacktime]

If Warhammer doesn't answer soon I guess we have to do another turn?

[Warhammer]

3 way draw is fine by me. I've been extremely busy with work myself and was going to postpone the turn tonight!

[Warhammer]

Don't worry about the turns, I'll shoot a note to llamabeast about what to do.

[Warhammer]

Nevermind, the option declare game ended will work I guess.

[Warhammer]

Game has been ended. Great game guys, I had an absolute ball.

[Snacktime]

Fantastic! I had a blast too, and will write up a summary of my experience in the next couple days. Thanks for being such a great group and such worthy adversaries.