Some notes on MA Mictlan update

[Kristoffer O]

Since I posted this in my current MP thread, I thought that others might be interested as well.

These are changes to MA MIctlan:


Heroes: two shape shifting coatls, one with 3N3S3P2F and one 3N3S3P2A. Unlikely to appear, since my scales are unlucky.

Sky Priest: 2A2P flying, 160g, home only.
Mictlan priest: FWNS random -> FAWNS random

Jade Serpent: Sacred summon. 2W, Conj 4, 5 gems, about as powerful a sea serpent, but no fear, can enter water, sacred.

Eagle Warriors: Something will happen to eagle warriors. Either loose home only, or switch home only with jaguar warriors. Compensates MA a bit for not having easy access to sacred demon fliers. A bit worried that it is too powerful though. They are pretty offensive with heavy blesses.

Moon warrior: Nonsacred heavy (by mictlan standards) elite infantry. Scale hauberk, 2h obsidian sword, 50 darkvision, 12 MR. No ranged weapon. Recruitable anywhere.

I'm thinking about possible changes on the Coatl, but nothing so far. I have an idea of separating the coatl of Mictlan from the c'tissian one.

[Velusion]

Sounds like some good updates.

And don't worry too much about the unfairness of your MP game. Once the patch comes out it's the entire group or the host that gets to decide if you get patched.

I think most players know that MA Mictlan deserves a boost and be happy - and if anyone really objects you don't have to patch the game...

[Tuidjy]

I think that no Mictlan should have both jaguar and eagle warriors built
everywhere. A horde of one is bad enough. Of horde of both is going to
be Hell to stop. It is extremely hard to balance sacred units... I do not
envy you the task.

[llamabeast]

Well the horde of both would be no bigger than the horde of one, since you wouldn't be able to produce any more sacred units total.

[Meglobob]

This is great, I love nations being added to rather than just nerfed and this makes MA Mictlan different from its EA/LA relations.

Everything you suggest is great but the following 2 changes go along way to turning MA Mictlan into abit of a superpower:-


Kristoffer O said:
Sky Priest: 2A2P flying, 160g, home only.
Mictlan priest: FWNS random -> FAWNS random

Eagle Warriors: Something will happen to eagle warriors. Either loose home only, or switch home only with jaguar warriors. Compensates MA a bit for not having easy access to sacred demon fliers. A bit worried that it is too powerful though. They are pretty offensive with heavy blesses.



Having both Jaguar warriors and eagle warriors recruitable everywhere would be far too powerful. But switching them around just in MA would be great, so Jaguars are capital only and Eagle warriors are recruitable from every castle.

EA/LA it stays as is ie...Jaguars every castle, eagle warriors capital only. Thematically it is easily justifiable in that the Lawgiver has raised the eagle warriors up and the jaguars are out of favour.

The A2, P2 flying mage is also a rather powerful edition, it is perfect for blessing your troops and it can easily be made into a powerful raiding thug. It also gives MA Mictlan access to spells like fog warriors, just put A4 on your pretender to build bag of wings/winged helmet.

This means in practice you are going to meeting Eagle warriors/Jaguars with 2 lvl 9 blesses backed up with Fog warriors. Too powerful? Probably, especially as it opens up Arrow Fend too, which overcomes Mictlans vulnerability to missile fire.

I suggest A1 with perhaps a 20% chance of a additional air. A2 is too powerful.

Would'nt the fire on the priest open up flaming arrows/wind guide combo?

I personally like powerful nations but I am just pointing those problems out so you can avoid threads like, 'Isn't MA Mictlan far too powerful' threads.

[llamabeast]

Casting fog warriors witrh A2 mages is very very hard work, it's not going to be happening very often unless it's the focus of a strategy, and even then not into mid game.

To my mind the presence of A2 mages is unlikely to boost MA Mictlan compared to the other ages as much as losing blood from all of the mages disadvantages them. They are still a nation of shoddy troops with no particular strengths except for their cheap sacreds.

[MaxWilson]

If you switch the cap-only restriction on the jaguar/eagle warriors, don't forget to switch PD too.

About Fog Warriors: one big difference between A1.2 and A2 is that A2 can cast site-searching spells, so you'll have a much larger gem income. Once you empower somebody up to A4 (105 air gems?), or if you have a pretender that starts at A4 or higher, you can forge a Bag of Winds and a Staff of Storms, then <Summon Air Power, Fog Warriors> by burning an extra air gem (it's A5 but only costs 300 fatigue). Seems feasible to me, and you get the fringe benefit of hampering missile fire at your jaguar (/eagle) warriors, and letting any other A2 priests boost to A3 so they can Thunderstrike and/or Orb Lightning.

That said, I agree with Megalobob that balance by *adding* things is much more fun than balance by nerfing, and I like the pending changes to MA Mictlan.

Edit: One more thing. About the "no particular strengths except for their cheap sacreds." What if the Mictlan Couatl were S3A3H2 or something? That gives them a good battlemage with some versatility and a ton of mobility, to make up for the lack of blood summons. It would play very differently from EA/LA Mictlan, but that's kind of the point.

-Max

[Shovah32]

Eagle warrior PD would be awesome although the lack of scriptable PD could make them slightly suicidal.

[MaxWilson]

Hey, PD's the best place for suicidal warriors. IIRC, they can't fly unless they're blessed so they won't die without doing some damage.

-Max

[jutetrea]

I'm playing an MA Mictlan game now, turn 37ish.

A2 would help a lot, but I don't think overly empowering. Possibly an A1N1 w/50% 1A chance, just need that 1 A2 for site searching and boots/displace early. Fog warriors is tough to cast consistently for most nations, adding it as a potential for late mid/late game shouldn't be a dealbreaker if the player wants to invest that way.

Making eagle's non cap would be great, although making jags cap only would suck. As mentioned earlier, you're still limited by your Dom count, so the "hordes" would be the same size, it would just open more strategic possibilities.

Adding heroes is always a great thing.

I'm pretty unimpressed with the nation so far, very linear, much more restricted in options than any other nation I've played. So far, just much less fun than any other nation i've played. Any "addition" changes are great IMO.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Brainfarts:

Putting recuperation on the Coatl would definetly be interesting. Feebleminded? Not the end of things.

I've always been wondering why the reign of the lawgiver isn't more 'ordered'. Give Guardian of Bridge as possible pretender?

Give feathered warrior a patrol bonus. Give Sun Warrior city defense bonus. They are elite guards dedicated to defending the temple.

Give non-blood flier national summon to accompany Coatl - though addition of air two provides some options. Currently you've got 80/85 normal/magic, but few things to spend on.
Make summon nature and/or astral, sync nicely with dragon master, which coatl is capable of casting.

Burning birds? Immortal mini-pheonix? Not-immortal, but fairly cheap- easy die- big bada boom. Replace Beast Bat. Jaguar Fiends - Jaguar Saints... Gets awe? not flying. Global - false order- decreases both dominion and unrest.

Add Wyvern Riders- with air mage, now capable of summoning them, so why not recruit from capital? Basically Eagle Warrior on Wyvern, with bonus of being able to fly strategically. Only Eagle Warrior Rider sacred, Wyvern not so.

[Chris_Byler]

All of this "with an air pretender you can forge boosters and do arrow fend" seems to be ignoring that with an air pretender, you *already have* an air shield bless (with no need for arrow fend). But you're spending pretender design points to get an air pretender, which is hard to do if you also want F9W9, high dom strength and any scales other than turmoil+misfortune+drain.

An A3, or maybe even A4, sky priest hero would be nice to put those air boosters a little closer to within reach. If you get him and if he doesn't die of old age. Mictlan already has an eagle priest hero, but he'd be kind of redundant in an age where sky priests are recruitable.

I don't think having two sacreds everywhere would be too powerful. You're still limited by dominion - you can build one or the other in any given fort+temple on any given month (or reduced numbers of both), and unlike some nations, all your sacreds are decidedly mortal. Sky priests' air magic would still be weaker than Caelum's and Man's - on par with Vanheim at most, I think (but with weaker national troops).


How about a Priest of the Law - no magic, but a L2 priest recruitable everywhere (other ages have to go to the capitol to find a priest who knows the difference between a chasuble and a thurible). Good leadership, patrol bonus, maybe inquisitor. Not old, it doesn't take as long to just learn theology as it does to learn theology *and* magic.

Contact Quetzal - a sacred bird with magical abilities (based on myths and legends about the actual bird, the resplendent quetzal). Flying, mainly air and nature magic (possibly a wider-ranging random) - weaker than a fairy queen, but also cheaper in gems and lower research and path requirements. Physically it's just a bird though, so low HP, low strength, few item slots.

Tien Chi-style conscription dominion would make some sense - it is a lawful age for Mictlan, right? - but not have too great an impact, considering Mictlan's rather pathetic PD.

I also second the idea of recuperating Couatls.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Does any race have a H3 priest who's not capital only?

Anyways, I do like the Priest of the Law. It fits in rather thematically, and works better than giving feathered warriors a patrol bonus. And Mictlan is a nation revolving around priests. At t2, it would be perfect to counter all those blood demons you're no longer summoning, if you were facing another blood nation, but wouldn't be so overpowered as Smiting.

[Kristoffer O]

C'tis, Marignon IIRC. There are probably some more. Atlantis perhaps. Oceania's Bishop Fish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baalz]

Yes, I like the proposed changes, FWIW I think it'd be a better idea to switch the jaguar/eagle being cap only rather than having the ability to recruit both everywhere. This will be a bit of a boost, but I wouldn't worry that this would be overpowering as in practice the eagle warriors have a much higher attrition rate than the jaguar warriors so you're definitely giving something up. I love the idea of of how different this one change would make the nation feel. Also, without the plan to switch to a blood economy fairly early, several of the scale choices are different so in general you're going to have a weaker bless.

To those who are commenting that adding an air priest is too powerful you've got to realize that in comparison to MA/LA they're completely losing extremely strong access to blood magic and by extension access to some of the better national summons in the game. Yes, if you're clever you can do nasty things with the air power but you'll have to work hard to convince me this is more dangerous than the blood they're giving up. The blood magic is what changes Mictlan from being one of the best nations EA/LA into one of the worst in MA...well actually one of the worst in the game.

Now, having said that, it might be more interesting rather than adding an air priest to change the coutail to be 3S 1N 2H +2 N/A. I've always felt that there wasn't really too much interesting to use the coutail for, but having air magic there opens up some interesting possibilities, and also makes air magic rather expensive since it's only a random on a 400gp cap only mage. Only 25% of them would be able to cast auspex, and these would also be the ones highly coveted for combat.

[Chris_Byler]

Abysia has H3 priests anywhere, too (in at least some ages).

But most nations that have an H3 priest at all (aside from prophets) also have an H2 anywhere; Mictlan is one of the very few exceptions with H3 in the capitol but only H1 outside it. That's one of the niches that Priest of the Law would fit, in addition to being a non-old leader, blesser and patroller. Allowing PotLs for blessing, sermon of courage etc. would free up the capitol priest-mages to use their magic paths more.

Baalz: I think that instead of changing the couatl, it would be more interesting to add a new unit and allow the player to choose which one to use (or in what combination to use both). That's why I suggested the quetzal (which I envisioned at something like A1 N1 (ANS)1.5, but anything reasonable would be better than nothing). Couatl does have uses in its current form (including moonvine bracelet, which would be hard to get with your version).

I'd like to see the current couatl, the sky priest and the quetzal all available at once, and see what that leads to, rather than preemptively deciding that it would be "too good". Nothing that's proposed for MA Mictlan comes near the powers of Theurgs, Seraphim or Disir, two of which are already running around in the middle age (on nations with superior military, too).

Don't forget that also by losing blood they also lose sabbath capability. In MA Mictlan only the moon priests and couatls can commune, so they don't have the ability to reach communion-boosted levels of fire and water (unless you have a pretender that can forge matrices) and can only boost nature and astral with considerable cost and difficulty - their only reliably communion *slaves* are capitol-only (again, without help from a suitable pretender or site mages like the Iron Order).

[Baalz]

Actually the Nahaulli becomes (IMO) the goto commander for non-capital recruiting in MA - they've got astral (and mesmerize before you’ve done any research). I think it'd be pretty cool to have flocks of flying communion slaves, I just never can bring myself to go with Nahaulli over Mictlan Priests in EA/LA...MA is a different story. With S/N coutails (presumably) leading the communion you're gonna have a hard time doing too much unsupported (and you've got no flying troops)...but S/N/A is a whole different story. This would give Mictlan some real teeth mid game just as their recruitable troops are starting to become obsolete (about the same time their blood economy begins kicking in EA/LA). Communion strength, to my mind, also fits the lawfulness/order theme. I also don't think it's going to be terribly hard to get moonvines, 25% of the coutails could forge them and it's not like you'll often need too many.

[Kristoffer O]

I though Mictlan was bit boring and weak, but have realized that they have lots of interesting stuff and options (they will still get their new stuff, don't worry).

I'm surprised to hear that people are not impressed with Couatls. I play MA Mictlan in my current MP game and I have been pleasantly surprised several times, by couatls, nahuallis, the priests in general, and available options. Only thing that has struck me as not very impressive are the jaguar warriors.

Hmm, I think I'll comment a bit:

Since you dont have blood, you will research other paths. Alteration is great. Luck, body ethereal, haste, wooden warriors, swarm, battle fortune, and later on frozen heart and blindness for all those little priests you have everywhere. This will make your priests war mages, instead of blood gatherers and researchers. I think that suits my play style http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Thau is also nioce for site search and panic (which is quite good vs indeps at least).

Couatl: Great unit, flies to every battle in wich you need him. Bring a couple of gems for power of the spheres, battle fortune, haste on your jaguars. Have him cast Vine ogre, in the fortress of your choice. Most other priests tend to get stuck at one place, if there are terrain hinders.

Nahualli: Likewise. Turkey-rain on your enemies. With swarm, wooden warriors and panic they are very nice. Excellent to quickly replenish your gem supplies in your front lines. Particulary fire gems for your sun priests and nature gems for your swarmers.

Sun priests: Great. Cost 130 since they are not as powerful priests. With phoenix power and some gems they can cast flaming arrows on your slingers.

Mictlan Priest: Dirt cheap. Much more useful with a couple of random lvl1 than some B! mage in combat. Can be used to swarm, frozen heart, blindness, luck, phoenix power+fire spells etc.

Jaguar warriors: I have a F9D9 blessing, and it's been rather unimpressive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I've been bladewinded to nothingness, and I'm way more impressed with my eagle warriors who actually arrived to wreak some havoc before they died. Only when I sucessfully got some wooden warriors cast on the Jaguars or when i got swarm and gems to cast it did some of them arrive at the far end of the battlefield.

Priest king: Useful for indy conquest. Very nice smiter at start. You need them to bless as well. Quite nice with panic.

Over all you have very cheap mages, that are also sacred. None very powerful, but powerful enough to participate in a war, and cheap enough to be expendable. It is also quit fun to have a wide array of mages in a battle. If you only have fire magic you don't have that many options.

I'm pleasantly surprised about the nation.

Surprises:
- my slingers, that were great when fighting indys, were suddenly mashed when they met air blessed sidhes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
- my jaguars, that never were many enough to actually arrive at the enemy blade wind casters or their defenders

[Meglobob]

If you had took W9 blessing your jaguar warriors would have reached the otherside of the battlefield and been more impressive.

However with that D9 on your pretender you can get Tartarians going for the late game and ghost riders, plus whatever else you can come up with...oh joy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Shovah32]

W9 bless would have got your jaguars there faster, S9 would have made them even tougher(twist fate+second form means they take alot of hits before going down) and more resistant to some spells, a minor air bless (air queens, fog warriors, staff o' storms ect) would also have helped a little but not hugely.

Your F9D9 jaguars should, however, be very capable when it comes to taking down enemy thugs ect.

Also: How much did you shield your jaguars?

[Jazzepi]

Jaguars are amazing with a water bless. It allows them to move very quickly. If MA Mictlan is going to get casters capable of casting arrow fend, I can imagine jaguar only armies storming across the continent.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Actually, I can't quite imagine an recruitable army I'd fear more than an *** ton of jaguar warriors backed up by fog warriors, arrow fend, mist, and storm.

Jazzepi

[Kristoffer O]

But I didn't want watewr , I wanted death http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. It annoys me that F9 is better than death!

Hmm, atm thay have switched places with the eagle warrior as home only. Intend to test it tomorrow.

[Jazzepi]

Quite honestly, I think the D9 bless is pretty ***. 2 points of damage that gets resisted by MR? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I think you should just take away the MR check, up the damage, or change the effect.

Jazzepi

[Kristoffer O]

Baalz, BTW, one of the greatest moments of the game was when I stormed Bandar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. That made me think Eagle warriors are totally cool! Pity on you not having priest though. I would have liked to see those gandharvas under bless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They were pretty hard without support.

[Baalz]

Yeah, I had a W/E bless, which makes them wicked tough...particularly if I get a chance to cast legions of steel/strength of giants on them with a Yaksha (and weapons of sharpness a little later in the research tree), backed by a bunch of Gurus who seem to like casting unscripted healing light to good effect. If only I'd had a couple more turns...;) That bless also works really well for some of the higher end national summons. I definitely want to play Bandar Log again sometime soon...hopefully I'll last a little longer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Eagle warriors are definitely cool when your opponent isn't expecting them. For me as well some of my favorite moments are when the eagle warriors drop in and cut a bunch of mages to shreds on the first turn. Just ask Meglobob about that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I've found they tend to struggle a little bit after the surprise factor wears off though and your opponent starts deploying heavy infantry on the flanks for them to get tangled with.

[TwoBits]

Kristoffer, have you noticed if your death-bless makes your sacred mages more potent on the battlefield?

[Kristoffer O]

I mostly buff, and cast non-dmg spells, so I have not seen any big effects. Incinerate, mindburn, frozen heart all kill their target more or less. I haven't used bladewind or other wide area attack spells atm. Only got them in my face http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I saw several crushers getting afflictions from jaguars that actually got close to the enemy, but mages might have had an influence on this as well. Mostly chestwounds, but some limps and a cripple. Not that they bother that much. After all their main purpose was to be in the way.

[Olive]

Seems great. Can't wait for that new MA Mictlan. Any release date scheduled for the next patch ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A little earth magic would be a valuable adding, I've always missed it playing Mictlan. Maybe on a random magic slot on the Mictlan's priest ? Something like FEWNS or FAEWN random ? Or as random on Couatls ?

[Kuritza]

Making Jaguars home-only and eagles recruitable everywhere would be a big nerf to MA Mictlan. I dont think MA Mictlan needs a nerf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Mictlan's PD is also awful enough already, eagle warriors wont help it.
Btw, speaking of nerfs, why making High Seraphs home-only? Its not like Caelum is as powerful as its used to be in Dom2. Lightings nerfed, quickness nerfed, false horrors nerfed, armies bigger than in Dom2 (so harder to overshoot with combat spells), High Seraphs old... Arent you affraid it will be the last nail in a coffin?

[Gandalf Parker]

Couatls are great as mobile support for an army. But they need a flying unit that can accompany it. I like to summon demons but I think they are even better if I can find crystal amazons.

If you think MA Mictlan was abit boring then loosen the restrictions on Lord of Night. Its a Mictlan-only god and at the moment only EA Mictlan gets it.

[Kristoffer O]

Kuritza said:
Making Jaguars home-only and eagles recruitable everywhere would be a big nerf to MA Mictlan. I dont think MA Mictlan needs a nerf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Mictlan's PD is also awful enough already, eagle warriors wont help it.
Btw, speaking of nerfs, why making High Seraphs home-only? Its not like Caelum is as powerful as its used to be in Dom2. Lightings nerfed, quickness nerfed, false horrors nerfed, armies bigger than in Dom2 (so harder to overshoot with combat spells), High Seraphs old... Arent you affraid it will be the last nail in a coffin?



It is not intended as a nerf. I think they got enough changes not to be percieved as nerfed. I'm interested in changing them thematically and strength-wise. I want them to have other strengths, not just more of one or less of one.

I hope I have achieved this. If they are still percieved as weak I'm more inclined to strengthen the MA eagle warriors than making jaguars recruitable everywhere.

Edit: I would not say Caelum will be weak, beacuse of this. Very few MA nations have 3+R mages recruitable anywhere. When they are also able to fly they can easily be deplyed anywhere, making them more useful then most home only mages.

I believe Caelum is considered one of the strongest nations, and the high seraphs recruitable anywhere is one reason. On the other hand I'm a bit inclined to raise the ldr of the seraphs in general, Caelum being a magocracy. I'm a bit worried that this makes the storm generals useless though.

And Caelum has also been boosted since dom2. Mammoths have turned out to be more powerful nowdays. They have ice crafters. Storm Guard have partial lightning resistance.

Finally some of the nerfs you talk about are not specific to Caelum (true, mamoth boost applies to arco as well), but many (or perhaps most in MA) nations have old mages. Battlefield size affects everyone, and particulary all those nations that do not primarily use evocations. Caelum is perhaps less affected by this than most nations.

[Sombre]

Sounds reasonable.

Lemur people!

[Kristoffer O]

A lemur is a roman ghost. Should perhaps appear with the soul gate in LA Ermor, but not in Mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Why did you say "Lemur people!" Sombre?

I feel so easily confused these days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Some kind of large eyed forestcritterpeople for MIctlan? I dunno.

[llamabeast]

They are very cute. I want one. I also want a marmoset. I could keep it in a small bag. It would also be great for practical jokes.

[Sombre]

I was/am feeling inspired by the updates to MA Mictlan and I suddenly thought hey, why not have a piratey civilisation based on madagascar? Pirate Lemurs, you don't get much better than that.

Nothing to do with this thread really.

And I meant the animal, not the spirit, but they have the same name for a reason. Ethereal Lemur Pirates anyone? :]

[llamabeast]

There are animal rights people chanting outside my window all day (because there is an animal lab nearby - nothing to do with me or my department). They want to free some monkeys. I am almost considering going on a commando mission and freeing the monkeys myself if only to keep them quiet.

[llamabeast]

Pirate lemurs sound great. You can imagine they would be great for boarding actions. And you would never catch a monkey in the rigging!

More seriously though, that does sound cool, if a little bizarre. Did Madagascar ever have pirates? I always think of them being Caribbean-related (I wonder why). The trouble with pirate nations of course is that pirates didn't really form proper nations as I understand it, and most of their fighting was done at sea, so I think it doesn't translate that straightforwardly to Dominions. But could be done.

[Kuritza]

Kristoffer O said:
If they are still percieved as weak I'm more inclined to strengthen the MA eagle warriors than making jaguars recruitable everywhere.


Perhaps its just me, but ... flying troops are just bad at fighting now, for some reason they always fail morale check. I am 100% positive of this - I did notice that in many games, and then it was confirmed when I was testing a sea troll king thug. With flying boots, he kept flying away from f9w9 vans; with any other boots he was staying and killing them all.


Edit: I would not say Caelum will be weak, beacuse of this. Very few MA nations have 3+R mages recruitable anywhere. When they are also able to fly they can easily be deplyed anywhere, making them more useful then most home only mages.


True, but of all MA nations Caelum also has perhaps the poorest troops and PD (which is simply THE worst), so it made sense to me they have good combat mages to compensate... also it makes sense for a magocracy.


I believe Caelum is considered one of the strongest nations


Is he? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif In our games he's rated as in-between 'poor' and 'bad' now. I'm in no way sure of my experience, perhaps in other communities Caelum is deemed strong. But I find that strange. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


And Caelum has also been boosted since dom2. Mammoths have turned out to be more powerful nowdays. They have ice crafters. Storm Guard have partial lightning resistance.


Partial lighting resistance is sweet, mammoths too. But other changes have hit him very hard. Imho Dom3 Caelum isnt even close to its former power.


Battlefield size affects everyone, and particulary all those nations that do not primarily use evocations. Caelum is perhaps less affected by this than most nations.


I beg to differ, its vice versa. Nations that relied on evocations have a harder time now because the more troops there are present, the less of impact mages have. Roughly speaking, before a mage could kill, like, 10 units out of 20, and decide the outcome of a battle. Now he will kill 10 units out of 60 - you must agree its not nearly as impressive.
And Caelum, being the most reliant on its mages, is naturally hit the hardest.

[Tuidjy]

Regular Caelum used to be my third strongest nation in Dominion II, when
considering all nations and themes. MA Caelum in Dominion III is in the bottom
twenty five percent, as far as I am concerned. One cannot win just with mages
anymore, their recruitable troops suck as much as they used to, the high Seraphs
random magic has been limited, the tower/lab/temple combo costs a lot more,
relatively, other nations' PD has become more useful, thus raiding is harder.
And of course, Caelum has no effective answer to AW immune thugs/supercombatants.

Today, MA Caelum is a one trick pony. Mammoths. I do not play one trick ponies.

And now a nerf? Well, I can honestly say, a nerf will not change the probability
of me playing them one tiny little bit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Have you tried Grip of Winter with Caelum? It's been pretty effective with LA Atlantis, and I only have 50% CR.

What's AW anyways? Air and Water, you mean? Shock Resistant and Cold Resist, or something else?

[Baalz]

Tuidjy said:
And of course, Caelum has no effective answer to AW immune thugs/supercombatants.



I haven't played Caelum, but I can say that this is something I have exploited several times *against* Caelum. Slap a ring of tamed lightning on an ice devil or any of the undead thugs and its pretty much a silver bullet against them.

[Gandalf Parker]

I want Lord of Night
(or do you regret ever putting him in at all?)

[Kristoffer O]

Interesting. I think I'll start a new tread on the matter.

[NTJedi]

llamabeast said:
There are animal rights people chanting outside my window all day (because there is an animal lab nearby - nothing to do with me or my department). They want to free some monkeys. I am almost considering going on a commando mission and freeing the monkeys myself if only to keep them quiet.



Going on a commando mission and killing all the monkeys will keep them quiet too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif
JUST Kidding

[llamabeast]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Nikolai]

Freeing lab animals is crazy :-) Much better to kill them. You do not know what you are letting out, riding with them otherwise.

[llamabeast]

I wasn't going to ride them. That would be crazy. I was just going to put them in my friend's sock drawers so they had a surprise in the morning. Imagine the possibilities!

[Amhazair]

Sounds fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Did I ever mention I would be honored to count you amongst my friends on this forum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(This sudden declaration obviously has nothing to do with any allaged love I might cherish over drawer-inhabiting monkies)

[llamabeast]

Why, thankyou Amhazair! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Your monkeys will be arriving soon.

[Kristoffer O]

With wings of emerald feathers they come flittering down from the skies, noicy and chittering, to rip you from the ground. In the distance an ominious voice can be heard: 'Fly, my little ones'. And you are off to meet the latin american beast of legend and the villains besieging his castle.

[llamabeast]

Interesting, Kristoffer. What should one google to find what you're referring to?

[Kristoffer O]

Winged monkies. But google probably wont say anything. I imagine Mr Burns says 'fly my little ones' to his monkies, but that might be wrong.

[RamsHead]

Mr. Burns: (To Homer) One more thing...you must find the Jade Monkey before the next full moon!
Smithers: Actually sir, we found the jade monkey. It was in your glove compartment.
Mr. Burns: And the road maps, and the driving gloves?!
Smithers: Yes, sir.
Mr. Burns:Then its all falling into place.

[llamabeast]

There is a group on Facebook which says that if the group gets 10000 members, the guy will call his son "Spider Pig" (using the power of Facebook to overrule his wife). It's on something like 9500 members now.

[sum1lost]

llamabeast said:
There is a group on Facebook which says that if the group gets 10000 members, the guy will call his son "Spider Pig" (using the power of Facebook to overrule his wife). It's on something like 9500 members now.



It sounds like the one where the guy uses facebook to call his kid 'danger'

[HoneyBadger]

South America provides all sorts of fun and interesting animals. Google is great for this.

One of my favorites is the terrible Ground Sloth, which regularly rends gringo tourists limb from limb with it's foot-long claws. It stands 12 feet tall and has an awful smell, and it's said it's lantern-like eyes can pierce your very soul...with black magic lazer beams. It can take the shape of a headless man in the light of a crescent moon, it knows whether Elvis is alive or dead, and it plays poker on every third Saturday with El Chupacabra and the Jersey Devil.

Well, ok, not exactly, but a few of the more...er...intense cryptozoologists seem to think ground sloths are a reality. Or atleast that's what they're likening the hazy descriptions of some kind of "skunk ape" to.

Might be fun to fit them into the game somewhere with one of the Mictlans.

South America is also rumored to have dinosaurs, vast snakes that live in waterfalls, various rainforest tribes who have never seen a white man before-and probably wouldn't care to, and the aforementioned El Chupacabra. There's really an immense amount of supernatural and paranormal material to draw from-enough to take any of the Mictlans in any direction desired, and with room left over for a whole 'nother set of nations.

There's even lost cities who's existence has actually been proven-as far as it goes-with satellite photography, but they're so far into the jungle that they've never been explored.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

You have heard of vampire gourds, right?
I have read a more detailed source, but this is all I can find at the moment.
http://www.connpost.com/charleswalsh/ci_4360500$
An entertaining webcomic that features them
http://www.graphicsmash.com/comics/digger.php
http://www.graphicsmash.com/comics/digger.php?view=archive&chapter=5028&mpe=1
Though most is subscription only... though not pricy...

I'm not sure where vampire gourds would fit in... they certainly wouldn't have any attack value to speak of, but it would be an entertaining addition to LA Ermor that provides chaff. I need to mod em in.

Even though they may hunger for blood, vampire pumpkins still don't have teeth. Beware bruised shins.

[DenStoreFrelser]

Mictlan with a level 0-2 blood summoning or assassination spell for a slave or two would be fun. As you probably know already, the word chupacabra translates into "goat sucker". Reason enough to add it, I say!

A size 1 assassin with perhaps a single misc slot to avoid thugging, rotten stats apart from a medium-high defense, useless for anything but taking out enemy priests. Not a demon (Or they'd die in the first round of combat against indy priests, their only targets.), but perhaps brought about due to "the taint of blood magic on the land" or something like that, which would also help explain why you can control them with blood. Might actually be handy to support your first demons, but probably just fun.

[Ballbarian]

One of my favorites is the terrible Ground Sloth, which regularly rends gringo tourists limb from limb with it's foot-long claws.



Wouldn't that be:
"...slowly rends gringo tourists limb from limb..."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Well...well, that's even worse, now, isn't it? If you think about it?

[Gandalf Parker]

DenStoreFrelser said:
A size 1 assassin with perhaps a single misc slot to avoid thugging,


Sounds interesting. Nice writeup.

But if I can convince him to loosen the reins on Lord of Night (let more than just EA Mictlan have it) then they will get the #1 unbeatable choice for assassin in the whole game.

[BigDisAwesome]

I've always wondered why you were so into the Lord of the Night. I just now realized that he not only has flying, but stealth!? I regret not choosing him in the game I'm playing EA Mictlan. He's not as easy to get a huge bless on, but he more than makes up for it with his mobility.

[Gandalf Parker]

And he is already an assassin. A Titan-sized, flying, dominion boosted, help summoning, stealth/assassin with all slots. Its hard to think of anything better as an assassin.

Oh yeah, and he has leadership. Give him some flying bodyguards just in case he gets spotted.

[BigDisAwesome]

And he's an assassin without having to get a black heart!?
Man...

[Sombre]

Sort of a waste using him as an assassin though.

[BigDisAwesome]

Yes and no. It'd be a waste to put a black heart on him to be an assassin, but having the option without taking up the slot is always nice.

[Gandalf Parker]

Id much rather use him as an assassin than a thug or SC. Sure its shaky to use your god as an assassin but it must have some benefits as an unexpected tactic.

Plus a flying assassin is always nice because it can quickly shift from what its doing to an area you are having problems with.

Plus flying-stealth means he can shoot up ahead of your frontlines to soften up a spot. Or shift randomly around an enemys backside creating havoc until you think he has started using PD against you.

If I remember correctly you can even fly him back into strong domain to boost his stats, then quickly move him somewhere for a hard attack, then back into domain for recuperating again. Always nice to have an assassin with a few hundred hit points.

[Jazzepi]

Yess'um, the stats for a God are calculated based on the territory they attack from.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

Jazzepi said:
Yess'um, the stats for a God are calculated based on the territory they attack from.

Jazzepi


Right. I forgot that. So it has to be an attack-type attack. Not going there for assassination. There is no "moveand assassinate". (hmmmm that would be sweet, really speed up assassinations)