Noob question about AI and diplomacy

[Zylithan]

Hi all - I'm brand new to Dominions, and trying to get into it, and get some friends into it. Apologies if this has been asked (I tried searching but didnt find anything).

In a game with multiple AI opponents, or with some players and some AIs...

1. Does the AI atack me more if I attack it first?

There's no official peace or truce agreements, right, but I feel like understood truces could exist. So, if I'm playing vs 2 AIs, should I get cheap victories from both, or just one, because taking an easy province from the second would launch me into a bigger war.

also...

2. Does the AI target players based on score? In MP I imagine people team up on the "winner".. does the AI do this? If so, what scales are most important? Does it know who is winning even if I turn scores off (players wouldn't, but sometimes AIs have special knowledge).

Thanks in advance!

[Sombre]

The AI does seem to react to you doing certain things, like attacking it - I mean to say if you're at 'war' with the AI (they've declared it on you) and you don't fight them at all and they're also at war with someone else, well then they tend to slack off attacking you. Whereas if you keep going for them, they turn their full attention to you.

Or so it seems.

As for attacking you if you're strong,.. I don't think so. This doesn't always happen in MP either ;]

[lch]

Eh, whenever I played SP the AI declared war on me as soon as it could see me, even long before I could see it (scouts, probably). Don't really think that there is some option about coexistance. But the AI does kinda leave you alone sometimes, or doesn't do anything against you after declaring war.

[NTJedi]

Zylithan said:
In a game with multiple AI opponents, or with some players and some AIs...

1. Does the AI atack me more if I attack it first?

There's no official peace or truce agreements, right, but I feel like understood truces could exist. So, if I'm playing vs 2 AIs, should I get cheap victories from both, or just one, because taking an easy province from the second would launch me into a bigger war.



I've played lots of games consisting of AI and human opponents. The AI will rarely attack more than one human player, it's fixed personality seems to focus on finishing it's main target and then move to a new target. This might be different when setting the AI personality to aggressive.



Zylithan said:
also...

2. Does the AI target players based on score? In MP I imagine people team up on the "winner".. does the AI do this? If so, what scales are most important? Does it know who is winning even if I turn scores off (players wouldn't, but sometimes AIs have special knowledge).

Thanks in advance!



From my experience the AI usually attacks the weakest province with the juicest magic sites. If at war with one human opponent the AI will not start wars with another human player unless it's been attacked. If it catches a human scout sneaking in it's territory this will be considered an attack.
Unfortunately the AI does not team up against the strongest player in the game... which results in watching the dying AI opponents throw daggers and kick each other as the strongest player swallows them. This is why I setup AI's on teams OR will have all AIs on the same team. The AI never knows who is winning.

[Zylithan]

Thanks for all the replies. I assumed you couldn't have teams (I thought the manual said so... but I always thought, what if gods want to form a pantheon... it doesnt have to be monotheism....) did I miss something, or is the teams thing a mod?

[NTJedi]

Zylithan said:
Thanks for all the replies. I assumed you couldn't have teams (I thought the manual said so... but I always thought, what if gods want to form a pantheon... it doesnt have to be monotheism....) did I miss something, or is the teams thing a mod?



You can setup the AI opponents to be allied with each other using the MAP edit commands. This can be done by reading the map edit PDF and editing the map file.

[sector24]

Sorry for changing the subject slightly, but is there any documentation concerning the difference between easy, normal, mighty, etc? Is the AI always the same and the starting resources change? I'm assuming at normal the player and the AI start on equal footing, what's the bonus at the higher difficulty levels?

[Zylithan]

Sector24 - there's actually a thread about this here

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=501765&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=&vc=1

(if I linked properly)

[sector24]

Thanks for the link, that was a good read. The only thing I can tell you about the AI is that they know when you're weak. I'm curious how many scouts they employ. Actually, I'm curious how many scouts human players employ for that matter.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

If I've got conveniently placed independent scout recruiting points, I churn out scouts nearly nonstop until I've saturated nearby nations. I even find it helpful to place scouts in the lands of trustworthy allies. If they're facing a deep, hostile invasion, it will let me know precisely what I'll be facing if I launch a relief effort, or aim assisting assassinations.
Or, if the invading force moves on without leaving any province defense or troops behind (it happens), I get to mess with their lines of retreat.

[sum1lost]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
If I've got conveniently placed independent scout recruiting points, I churn out scouts nearly nonstop until I've saturated nearby nations. I even find it helpful to place scouts in the lands of trustworthy allies. If they're facing a deep, hostile invasion, it will let me know precisely what I'll be facing if I launch a relief effort, or aim assisting assassinations.
Or, if the invading force moves on without leaving any province defense or troops behind (it happens), I get to mess with their lines of retreat.



This is how I did a good deal of damage to Man, including destroying his retreating knights and prophet-hero-commander.

[Ygorl]

At least in Dom2, the AI would tend to pick whom and when to attack by comparing the number of troops to the number of provinces for each nation. If a nation had lots of provinces but few troops (regardless of their power) it would be a ripe target for the AI. You could fool it by hiring lots of PD (those were counted) or lots of garbage troops, thereby convincing it that you weren't worth the trouble of attacking.

[NTJedi]

sector24 said:
The only thing I can tell you about the AI is that they know when you're weak. I'm curious how many scouts they employ.


My view about the AI in Dominions_3:
I seriously doubt the AI knows how to use scouts, and thus shouldn't be buying them. I could write a whole list of improvements needed by the AI, but it's too much for a small company like Illwinter.
For this reason I've been requesting the next version of Dominions provide modding of the AI via scripts. Ideally the next version of Dominions would provide us the following options:
1) Aggressive (currently within Dominions_3)
2) Standard (currently within Dominions_3)
3) Defensive (currently within Dominions_3)
4) Random (currently within Dominions_3)
5) Custom_A (hopefully found in Dominions_4)
6) Custom_B (hopefully found in Dominions_4)
7) Custom_C (hopefully found in Dominions_4)
8) Custom_D (hopefully found in Dominions_4)
9) Custom_E (hopefully found in Dominions_4)

** Custom A thru E are scripts which can be edited by gamers to improve the AI. Thus anytime someone complains about the AI... all the community has to say is "make a better AI via the scripts". As time passes custom AI scripts will continue to improve, the more scripting commands available the greater the opportunity for a powerful AI.

[Aethyr]

NT--

Your comments regarding editing the map file to allow AI sides to team up has given me some ideas. I did not know this could be done, and it would be great for some tests that I have in mind.

Prescisely how I would go about editing the file is not quite intuitive for me, could you elaborate a bit? Thanks for your help.

[llamabeast]

If you mean how to actually edit it - open it in notepad, it's just a text file.

There is guide on map editing in the dominions3/doc folder.

[Aethyr]

Ahhh...

Thanks LB.

[Gandalf Parker]

The allies command allows you to set two AIs to not attack each other. Here is a short-list of map commands.
http://www.dom3minions.com/docs/map_qref.txt

With #allies you can create a map as a scenario such as

A) F.E.A.R
the Family of Ermor, Atlantis, Rlyeh. 3 pretender gods, all siblings. They have agreed to share the world. Start them with extra castles and armies and equipment.

B) Save Arcos
Set Ermor as "ally" to Arcos just so it wont attack. But place Arcos inside its castle and Ermor outside of the castle, seiging it. Your mission is to get there and free arcos before they fall.

C) Turtles
Give all of the AIs 5 or 6 starting provinces and set them all ally to each other. Including possible setting them ally to nation 23 (the independents). That way NONE of them will attack. They will only sit and buildup wating for you to come and get them. Might create some fun giant battles.

[Ewierl]

By the way, AFAIK, the AI actually targets weak players instead of strong ones, mostly via the Army Size graph. This is an effective plan sometimes, but sadly they do it all the time... and doubly sad when combined with all the AIs massing independents the way they're wont to do, human-run army sizes invariably end up on the lower end of the scale. Nowadays I always use the No Independents mod in SP.

[Gandalf Parker]

Changing the game settings can help also. Raising indept strength while turning down the resources in the game can get almost the same results as the no-indepts mod.

But I do really want to urge anyone to do a scenario map. The BEST fix for the AI would be a better created AI. With a scenario map you can keep the AI from getting just a randomly-built god. Make the map with a chosen god and chosen scales that make sense for that nation.

Of course, the drawback of such a map is that the more that is removed from being randomly selected by the game, the less re-playability that map has. But if a BUNCH of us did some then we would have more to choose from.

Come on people, if you are an expert Ermorian, then make us an Ermorian scenario to play against. Please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[thejeff]

Part of the problem of course is that an good human pretender is often not a good AI pretender. A god designed for any particular strategy (Summons or forging to expand magic/SC/Casting game winning spells) won't work, since the AI won't work towards that strategy. It won't even take advantage of a strong bless (Won't recruit enough sacreds, won't bless them if it does.)

Probably the best AI pretenders are fairly generic high dominion/scales gods. Preferably immobile or immortal so they can't be killed easily.

[Gandalf Parker]

Agreed. There have been some threads on that. Which scales and pretenders the AI uses best. And of course some testing might be a good idea before posting it. Some fantastic options open up when you realize that you can not only build the god and scales, but you can select a full set of equipment to give that god. Surely that sparks some evil creativity to see what you can create and how that would play as an AI.

There are other things that can be done also. Adding a magic site or two. Specific ones that help to push the AI in the "right" direction. Such as, giving the AI more resources tends to push it into making more elite troops.

Also giving an extra castle or two for a head start. Extra units (kindof like giving them pre-purchased mercenaries to start the game with).

But scenario maps ARE an option, and one that we havent seen many people trying. Im all for anyone being brave enough to put one forth as "my effort to create a better badder Ermor", or Ctis, or Machaka, or Mictlan.

[NTJedi]

Gandalf Parker said:
Agreed. There have been some threads on that. Which scales and pretenders the AI uses best. And of course some testing might be a good idea before posting it. Some fantastic options open up when you realize that you can not only build the god and scales, but you can select a full set of equipment to give that god. Surely that sparks some evil creativity to see what you can create and how that would play as an AI.

There are other things that can be done also. Adding a magic site or two. Specific ones that help to push the AI in the "right" direction. Such as, giving the AI more resources tends to push it into making more elite troops.

Also giving an extra castle or two for a head start. Extra units (kindof like giving them pre-purchased mercenaries to start the game with).

But scenario maps ARE an option, and one that we havent seen many people trying. Im all for anyone being brave enough to put one forth as "my effort to create a better badder Ermor", or Ctis, or Machaka, or Mictlan.



In my experience, the most important adjustment needed by the AIs is a growth scale. Also typically you pray the AI doesn't choose a large pretender, because otherwise it will blindly send him to the death match arena. Nothing is more SAD then watching a bunch of AI pretenders blindly kill each other from the arena death match. The AIs don't build SC's either so typically on a large map I'll give them a half a dozen at the start of the game. The AI almost always does poorly at research, but if you give the AI a library at its capital it can keep up with the human opponent.
In Dominions_2 I use to provide a few AIs a magic site with blood income, a few immobile commanders with blood magic, then have them start the game with specific blood spells. This allowed the AI to wisely use blood magic where it previously never even researched blood magic. I also would have them start the game with dome spells. Every weekend I have a different level_9 astral mage cast WISH so the #startspell gets fixed in Dominions_3... maybe one of these days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Kristoffer O]

> Every weekend I have a different level_9 astral mage cast WISH so the #startspell gets fixed in Dominions_3... maybe one of these days.

It is not so much getting it fixed as making it up from scratch, in a more complicated way than in dom2. Still, wishes might come true.

Edit : removed smilie not to get peoples hopes up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Edratman]

This thread has some interesting depth and ideas in it. If (big word), it can be determined which pretenders are optimal for the AI, that has the potential to be an additional level of difficulty, ie. a best pretender level, and I see the opportunity for another super impossible level where the AI gets best pretender and two provinces with castles and maybe an extra 50 or so scale points.

I made pretenders for the AI, but they didn't perform as well as the randoms did. Of course, as I realize now, I was making pretenders that would jibe with my play style. This weekend I'm going to try immobile pretenders, good/great scales and throw the balance into rainbow magic.

Gandalf clued me into the low resource game several weeks ago and that is all I play now (resource 50%). It plays quite differently than the high resource games I used to play. The AI is certainly less self destructive because it is not fielding armies with several hundred chaff. I assume that the AI decision tree uses number of units as a key decision factor, so it seems to play a bit better. It definately builds more castles and better units, on the whole. On the other hand, it does seem to be less aggressive, probably because it doesn't have as many units. In my current game with half the AI at level 3, half at level 4 (difficult and mighty?) I am getting a good run for my money. (I am not a superstar player, just someone muddling through.)

[llamabeast]

Have you tried the no independents mods or maps Edratman? They force the AIs to build national troops only, which tends to increase the quality of their troops loads.

[Edratman]

I haven't tried the no independents games because I like using independents myself. Some are pretty cool.

I'll go out of my way to conquer Amazon provinces because of the sacred troops and the same with giants because I like giant commanders and give them the bow of lightening with the strength enhancing boots and bracers if I can. Too bad they are not more common. They are not quite as good as the etheral crossbow, but you can do them earlier and they fire every turn.

That does raise a question, is there anyway to alter the ratio of human/non-human independents? I seem to get a much higher ration of human independents in my current map series. Based on Gandalf's advice, I make custom maps, (trying to do this from memory) 3000 X 2400 resolution, 350 to 400 provinces, mountains 95, ruggedness 85, water 15
rivers about 300. Are these settings a factor?

[Kristoffer O]

There are more nonhumans and barbarians and stuff in the early era IIRC.

[Edratman]

I've been trying to figure it out for a while, but now I give up. What does IIRC mean?

[Jazzepi]

If I Remember Correctly. AFAIK.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

JAzzepi

[Edratman]

Jazzepi said:
If I Remember Correctly. AFAIK.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

JAzzepi



Thanks. The clever reply was noted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Believe it or not, I tried looking it up in the abbreviations in the back of the manual.

It's obvious to me that I'm a bit behind the curve on the acronym usage.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
> Every weekend I have a different level_9 astral mage cast WISH so the #startspell gets fixed in Dominions_3... maybe one of these days.

It is not so much getting it fixed as making it up from scratch, in a more complicated way than in dom2. Still, wishes might come true.




Sounds good... the #startspell was very useful for making more challenging AIs. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help... besides wishing and praying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also Kristoffer thanks for being so actively productive in this upcoming patch. This next patch looks awesome.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

We're all a little behind the curve when a new acronym spreads like plague. Happy to clarify any I know, but here's a undependable, but handy resource:
www.urbandictionary.com (http://www.urbandictionary.com)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=afaik

IMO, its a great site.

[Edratman]

Lazy_Perfectionist

Thanks for link.

The primary reason that I'm am behind the curve is that I decided to not stay current with that mode of communication. I'm a bit older than most and while not a technophobe or Luddite (I am an engineer after all), there are certain activities that I won't do. I.E., I do not IM (there's one I use), use text messaging, this is the only forum that I participate in and I insist that all my employees use proper English in all their communications, especially e-mail, where they have a tendency to send messages that (in my opinion) should have been done in crayon. (It's nice when one can insist on something and it happens.)

[shaihulou]

hi all, i'm new to this game but anyway i have a problem about the "allies" map editing.

In the map edit pdf it says the command for setting up allies is #allies <player> <player>, but i'm confuse here, is <player> actually means the name of nation or player 1,2,3...etc in numbers?

Wish you guys can help

Thanks in advance

Alex

[Ballbarian]

Nation number.
Gandalf has a list here:
http://www.dom3minions.com/docs/nations.txt

[shaihulou]

oic thanks alot dude! ;D

[Gandalf Parker]

The fun thing about it being a number is that it makes it really easy to create a script program in something simple (like basic or shell) to add some random alliances to a map just before you play. That makes for some fun surprises.

Added note:
Dom3 created a problem with this. Its one of the many places where the game has created an error condition that it does not try to handle. The game creation will error if you have references to a nation number that it not in the range of that era. So the scripts become abit more of a hassle. You must pre-decide whether you will create alliances and play the map as early, mid, or late era. So be sure to change the description to remind you to play it as that era.