How to deal with elephants

[Dedas]

Masses of elephants are a big threat even early on, so how to deal with them effectively? Let us begin by looking on the elephant's weak points.

Weaknesses of the elephant:
Low morale: 9
Abysmal magic resistance: 6
Low defense: 8
Moderate protection: 11

From this information I have assembled a list of more or less effective early game spells to counter the them:

Thaumaturgy

Sleep N2 - low level (2), low fatigue (20), long range (30), good precision (+5).

Pros
Stops the elephants in their tracks instantly by giving them 110+ stun damage when they fail their MR check. The sleeping elephants will also block their brethren to great effect.

Cons
Not very good against hordes of elephants unless you yourself got lots of spell casters. It may also miss sometimes based on spell casters precision (combine with eagle eyes).

Panic N2 - low level (3), low fatigue (20), long range (25), some precision (+1), great area effect (5+).

Pros
If the elephants had low morale before they now have none. Spam this spell and you won't have any trouble scaring them off into their own units with the first javelin/bolt/arrow/stone volley. You can even cast this spell when the elephants are entangled with your own units in close combat as it won't hit them. A great spell against all low magic resistance units overall.

Cons
It won't scare the elephants by itself, just lower their morale. Thus you have to combine it with (preferably missile) units of your own.

Seven years fever N1 F1 – low level (1), moderate fatigue (30), good range (20), some precision (+2), some area effect (1).

Pros
The elephants won't heal after combat. Combine with arrow fire, retreat or fight to the death to delay. If playing Machaka this may be the way to go as they have no problem casting this and have cheap and fast archers.

Cons
Mostly for Machaka and mostly for delaying action.

Curse N1 S1 - low level (1), moderate fatigue (30), extreme range (50), extreme precision (+100), affects one person.

Pros
Will make the elephants useless if combined with arrow fire and/or javelin chaff. Then send in the real troops. Great spell for C'tis witch doctors. You can also find witch doctors easily.

Cons
This is a combination spell. Pretty hard to use if you don't play C'tis.

Frighten D1 - low level (1), almost no fatigue (5), extreme range (50), some precision (+5), small area effect (1).

Pros
Fear +15 attack in the square where it hits. That gives the elephants 18% chance of passing it. So it is pretty good. You can spam this spell to great effect. The more death mages the better spamming it together. For even better chance of success combine it with panic to first lower their morale.

Cons
Not very good at scaring off big hordes apparently. Will also hit your own troops so try not to use it when your troops are in melee with the beasts. No problem with mindless though

Terror D3 - moderate level (4), very low fatigue (10), long range (25), some precision (+1), great area effect (5+).

Pros
Just as Frighten but with lower fear attack (+10) and much greater area of effect. Excellent spell overall. A hordes of elephants are no problem if you have a couple of sauromancers spamming this. Just drive them before you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cons
Can be hard to cast for most nations not into death. Will hit your own troops. No problem with mindless though.

Check out the replay for a demonstration:
TerrorPanic (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=540554)

Note that the elephants all have +2 morale (11) making it harder for this spell to work.

Paralyze S2 – moderate level (4), low fatigue (20), extreme range (100), extreme precision (+100), affects only one person.

Pros
This spells needs no explaining. It will both:
Hurt the elephant – it may route.
Stop the elephant – it will block others.

Cons
No real cons. Astral are not for everyone. A bit high level for early on rushes.

Soul Slay S3 – high level (5), low fatigue (20), extreme range (100), extreme precision (+100), affects only one person.

Pros
This is THE spell to instantly kill the pesky buggers also known as elephants. If you can use it you should.

Cons
Astral 3 means it isn't for everyone until later in the game. Level 5 says the same. If you are being rushed you probably won't have it yet. Thankfully there are other low level spells that you can use in the meantime.


Bonds of Fire F1 - low level (2), low fatigue (20), moderate range (15), some precision (+3), small effect (5).

Pros
This is contrary to belief a good way to stop elephants when playing for instance MA Ulm or Abysia. Why? Because to escape the shackles you need high morale, something elephants do not have. When they are standing still they are easy targets for your arbalests (playing Ulm) and other fire spells (playing Abysia). If they eventually break free they will take some AN damage that will help them rout.

Cons
You have to be dangerously close to the beasts, so use screening. Also, the enemy may try to boost the elephants morale with banners. It won't be enough all the time though as the elephants need to take the test against 20.

Prison of Fire F3 - moderate level (4), moderate fatigue (30), long range (25), some precision (+2), good area effect (3+).

Pros
Just as Bonds of Fire but with better range and greater area effect.

Cons
Harder to cast. I see this spell mostly as an Abysian counter to elephant horde. This spell will give them plenty of time to massacre the elephants will fireballs and the like.

Rage F2 - low level (3), low fatigue (20), long range (25), extreme precision (+100), only hits one person.

Pros
Makes the elephant kill his mates and hopefully the juicy commander(s) with banners. Great in combination with Prison of Fire and Bonds of Fire.

Cons
This will usually hit the spot, although it is hard to cast for most nations.

Confusion A3 - high level (5), very low fatigue (10), long range (25), some precision (+1), small area effect (1).

Pros
Similar to rage but with an area effect and more random result. A possible counter for air heavy nations.

Cons
Way too high level to stop an early rush.


Enchantment

Flaming Arrows F4 - medium level (4), very high fatigue (100), gem cost 1, BF effect.

Pros
Flaming arrows will pierce the little (11) protection the elephants have and then hurt them bad.

Cons
None really. Hard to cast and not really low level.

Nothing else in enchantment except rituals that I won't touch with this guide. You could perhaps use the various undead battlefield summoning spells to wear the elephants down.


Alteration

False Fetters A2 - low level (1), very low fatigue (10), very short range (10), no precision (+0), moderate area effect (2+).

Pros
I can't see how the elephants would get free of this in a hurry. To get loose an elephant would need to roll a DRN (2d6 unlimited) of 15 (15 + 6 MR to exceed 20 that is needed to get free). This happening isn't very likely.
Another good thing is the area effect of this spell, and its cheapness and low level. It is highly recommended that you use it if you can. Combine with hard hitting infantry.

Cons
Obviously the very short range. You have to get awfully close to the beast before casting but as the spell is so effective against them it isn't that dangerous.

Body Ethereal S1 low level (3), moderate fatigue (30), very short range (1), area of effect 1.

Pros
Will make it much harder to hit the enchanted unit, and this will save them from being trampled most of the time (75%). Use this on the soldiers your are sending into the fray, but be sure to back them up with other spells to even the odds even more.
Not very expensive on the fatigue in reality as you can usually buff your mages a level cutting it in half.

Cons
None really, this is a real lifesaver.


Construction

Nothing here except way up the research tree.

Evocation

Flame Bolt F2 - low level (1), low fatigue (20), long range (40+), some precision (+2), only hits one person.

Pros
The earliest and probably the best (until pillar of fire) raw fire damage spell to kill elephants. Good precision (for a fire spell), really good damage (22+ ap) and low fatigue. And as elephants take are size 6 they take up one whole square so area damage of 1 is not needed.

Other contenders:
Flare: does area damage of 1 but cost 50 fatigue and has no precision boost, it is also higher level.
Fireball: Higher level and less damage and precision, also area damage of 1.

Cons
You need something else to stop the beasts first, before you can really start pound them. So why not Prison of Fire?

Slime W1 – low level (1), low fatigue (20), long range (25+), some precision (+2), area effect 1.

Pros
Surprisingly good against elephants as they almost always get slimed due to their abysmal MR (6) and then start to move real slow. Trample becomes less effective and their defense is halved down to 4. Now you can actually kill the beasts in close combat. All this for a very low level spell.

Cons
Not very good when the elephants come in very large numbers. But then you have better spells and this can work as a complement before going into close combat. Combine Slime with cold bolt/blast and falling frost for very good results.

Cold Bolt W2 - low level (1), low fatigue (20), very long range (45), some precision (+3), only hits one person, high damage (19+).

Pros
Very good at both stopping and damaging the large and easy to hit creatures. Actually much better than its fire equivalent above, Flame Bolt, except the lack AP. Combine with same Slime found at the same level and commence pummeling the sitting ducks.

Cons
As with Slime you have need better spells when the elephants come in very large numbers. That or a large group of spell casters.

Falling Frost W3 – high level (5), low fatigue (20), long range (25), low precision (+0), great area effect (5+), high damage (17+).

Pros
Same as cold bolt but area effect. Use this, slime, and archers when the ellies come in horde numbers.

Cons
None really. High level, difficult to cast for many nations.

Magma Bolts E1 F1 - low level (3), low fatigue (20), long range (25+), some precision (+2), only hits one person, 3 effects, very high damage (25+).

Pros
This is a very nice spell against elephants. Just stop them with the also accessible Fire Bonds/Prison of Fire first. This is the counter I use when playing MA Ulm and meet elephants early on. The smiths can cast both with very little research. Later you use the big brother Magma Eruption of course.

Cons
Hard to cast for many nations.

Nether Bolts S1 D1 - medium level (4), low fatigue (15), very long range (30+), some precision (+2), area effect 1, damage 20+ AP.

Pros
Pretty good against elephants in combination with frighten and terror.

Cons
Hard to cast for most nations.

Stellar Cascades S2 high level (5), low fatigue (20), long range (30), extreme precision (+100), great area effect (5+), 25 stun damage.

Pros
This spell is ridiculously good against elephants as it is easily spammable by low level mages (guru for instance), it has crazy precision and great area effect. You only need 4 hits to stop a large number of elephants completely. Then you can rip them apart with in close combat (extremely easy to hit) or missiles (100+ fatigue means lots and lots of critical hits).

Cons
High level.

Lightning Bolt A2 low level (2), very low fatigue (10), very long range (35+), good precision (+4), only hits one person, moderate damage (14+).

Pros
Easy to spam and quickly kill a small number of elephants.

Cons
Low damage.

Thunder Strike A3 medium level (4), high fatigue (50), extreme range (100), some precision (+2), area effect 1, damage 26+ AN.

Pros
Can both kill and stun elephants quite quickly

Cons
It really costs too much fatigue. Too high level of air is needed to make it useful to many.

Shadow Bolt D2 - low level (3), low fatigue (20), very long range (30+), some precision (+3), only hits one person, very good damage (20+ AN).

Pros
This is a good spell for both stopping (paralyze) and bombarding incoming elephants. Use it in combination with lots and lots of immune undead creatures.

Cons
None really. It is a pretty solid and easy to get spell. Hard to stop hordes of elephants with it though. But then you have:

Shadow Blast D2 - high level (5), high fatigue (100), very long range (30+), no precision (+0), extremely good area of effect (7+), very good damage (20+ AN).

Pros
This is an extremely good spell against all low MR, big sized, high HP monsters. Use it extensively.

Cons
Costs much fatigue so you will either need higher than 2 death or gems to cast it twice with the same mage.

Some of you might think that I should mention Vine Arrow. But it is not very effective against elephants as they have the strength to break through easily. Bonds of Fire is a much better ”stop” spell on elephants as they have to make the test against morale and not strength. Same with Tangle Vines.



Conjuration

Nothing here that merits a mention.



What do you think? Is there something that shouldn't be on the list or have I failed to mention something obvious?

Also, how do you combine the spells to the best effect with troops? Do you have a killer strategy? Please feel free to post it.

Happy gaming! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Edit
Added False Fetters comments.

Edit
Added Body Ethereal
Added Soul Slay

[Sombre]

One problem here is that even if you're expecting an elephant rush and are preparing your counter, all those mages don't help much in expansion. The elephants on the other hand are great for expanding. So I even if the counter works, the guy having to use it probably suffers far more than the guy using elephants.

[Gandalf Parker]

I tend to use slingers. Masses of them, spread out into as many groups as I can break them up into.

[Dedas]

The thing with these counters is that they are easy to access and that you can use your research mages to cast them without preparation. They are intended to complement your expansion or defense army.

[Ygorl]

We have a policy of never dealing with elephants. We don't even like dealing with those who do deal with elephants.

[parcelt]

I think this is an excellent listing, in a recent MP game I was facing some big elephant hordes (30 to 50 elephants) from Arco and to my great frustration I couldn't really deal with them. I guess that doesn't need to happen again! Thanks for putting this together Dedas.

[Sombre]

I don't totally understand how that would work Gandalf. I haven't tried it though, have you? I mean against a real elephant rush, not just a handful of them.

[Ewierl]

You missed False Fetters; slightly better than Bonds of Fire, as they have to make MR checks instead of morale, which start lower and is tougher to boost in the early game.

[Dedas]

Oh yes, how could I have missed that? Thank you, I'm adding it to the list right away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


@parcelt
Thank you for your kind words! I'm glad that the list can help you somewhat.

[Sandman]

Crushers (con 5) are size 6 and difficult to kill. Why not put one in front of your army to distract the elephants?

[Gandalf Parker]

Sombre said:
I don't totally understand how that would work Gandalf. I haven't tried it though, have you? I mean against a real elephant rush, not just a handful of them.


I suppose that I could use the mini-map battle simulator to test it a bunch of times. Put a bunch of elephants on one team and a bunch of slingers on the other. Maybe someone else will care enough.

But I dont see why its a question. I see the shards spell mentioned often enough when elephants are mentioned. I can get alot more slingers tossing a LOT more stones than I can get mages into the field.

Most of the answers I see focus on the elephants low morale, low defense, big size. Its not how hard you hit them but how often you can hit them so that they will rout back thru their buddies. When I run into elephants I look for cheap bulk with lots of attacks. Slingers, or the woodsmen with double-dagger attack. I also like to toss in those woodsmen with blowpipes to paralyze.

Oh yeah, and poison bladder bags. Its a cheap and early area affect.

Of course Im thinking early game mostly.

[Baalz]

Body ethereal also gives you a 75% chance to avoid trampling. Easy to cast and can be effective if you've got some high damage dealing troops that just need to last a couple rounds to take the elephants down.

[Meglobob]

I have used elephant/mammoth rush many times. Only once has anyone stopped me and that was Bander Log with massed soul slay. It totally ruined my day, but was very, very effective.

I have had people try bonds of fire, massed archers/crossbows, single target evocation spells like lightning, shadow bolt, thunderstrike, firebolt, body ethereal etc and they have all failed miserably.

Sorry, to say Dedas some of those on your list are a little misleading. They will not stop a well put together elephant/mammoth rush.

A few final points, no player will ever put anything behind massed elephants just in case morale breaks and why just use elephants on there own? You support your elephant legions. As Caelum I support mine with archers usually scripted to fire archers or rear and small squads of flyers, again scripted to attack rear/archers. The aim of those support forces is to counter the counter to elephants ie...mages/archers.

[Dedas]

I actually put some research and experience behind this and the above spell list what I came up with, all level 5 and below. There are better spells of course but on higher levels, capable of dealing with later game threats as it should be.

Another thing, I did never state that the spells above should work on their own, quite the contrary in fact - they work best in combination with other spells and units. For example, you don't need that many Bonds of Fire to make a huge difference when your army consists of lots of arbalests and foot soldiers. The elephants will come to you in smaller numbers actually possible to stop. The thing is to break the "wall of tramplers" and buy time for the real troops to fire and hack. Just some poorly scripted mages with with minimal backup will do nothing. We all know that.

Oh, and if you have anything better to offer in countering an early game elephant/mammoth rush besides running away please share. I believe we are all ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baalz]

Oh I don't know Bob, I've personally had pretty good luck with frighten and in another case body ethereal (water blessed Bandar Log tiger riders - quickened 3 attacks plus a high defense). In another game I saw elephants crushing my neighbor and quickly researched up to enslave mind before they were turned on me. You think soul slay ruined your day? Elephants fear the communion. >:)

[Dedas]

Thank you Baalz, I will add Body Ethereal to the list. Oh and I just tested it myself in a little scenario I did. It works very well with simple units as heavy cavalry, units that you can recruit almost everywhere.

Oh, and archers and fliers are not that big a threat to mages in the back if you know how to protect them. You just need to roughly know how the combat AI works and of course know your opponent's scripting. I usually send in a scout with retreat order first, or spy on the enemy when he attacks indies to find out. People usually don't change their setup even though they should. Because you never know who's watching. He he he! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Folket]

I think mind burn and soul slay should be on the list.

[Dedas]

Soul Slay is already added. I'm a bit skeptical to Mind Burn though, mostly because I haven't tested it yet on elephants. It looks like it does too little damage. Maybe you have some experience?

[Ironhawk]

Dedas said:
The thing with these counters is that they are easy to access and that you can use your research mages to cast them without preparation.



One of the problems with your suggestion is that it requires mages at all. As you say above you can even just use your research mages.... but if I have to pull my mages away from researching for several turns to go and fight elephants and then have them walk several turns back to a lab when its over thats bad news! Even if I win, I will be like 4-8turns behind in research. Thats just no good.

What I would really like to see is a list of units and formations that can counter elephants. I know for a fact that nets are quite dangerous to elephants, for example. So Ichythids (of all things!) are pretty good against them. Gladiators too, tho those are incredibly hard to deploy.

Does anyone else have purely military solutions to the elephant problem? Oh - and dont bother just sayign "archers" - they dont work. Either they dont do enough damage or the enemy player just kills them all.

[GameExtremist]

In my experience archers are useless...maybe massed flame arrows might be helpful but if you are facing a large elephant horde they will be at and then through your front line in 2 turns...

I've found falling frost and magma eruption work quite well...blade wind too, poison cloud is another. Shadow blast works great too as it deals great damage and also paralyzes too.

Soul slay will work a treat, it deals instant death if they fail their MR save.

[Dedas]

I didn't mean that you should wrap all the mages in your kingdom together to go on some crazy elephant cleansing crusade. What I meant was that you can use them as backup to stop an elephant rush happening at your front door, instead of just sacrificing your army alone in a no win fight. They could topple the odds in your favor with the right low level spells, spells that I wanted to make a list of. Oh, and we are still talking early to mid game here.


Yes, nets work well on elephants actually, as it stops their trampling for a turn (they soon break free thanks to their great strength) and lowers their defense to 1. So yes, against a few elephants this might work, but when you have a wall of them, well then you need to split them up, netting them piecemeal. This is where you combine nets with spells.
In other words: it all revolves around disrupting and dispersing the "wall of trampling". If it comes too close to your lines you are dead. You have to smash that wall before that happens, then it is fairly easy to you crush the bricks that falls through with your regular troops.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Unless you have flaming arrows wouldn't massing indy barbarians be more effective then indy archers?

[sector24]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think elephants often have 9 morale. Most of the time they have 11, and sometimes quite a bit higher. It seems to me the whole idea of elephants panicking needs to be reworked. When I think of a low morale unit, I'm thinking about guys with 5 or 6 morale, not 9 or 11.

[Jazzepi]

I don't think any unit in the game has base morale that low.

Jazzepi

[Salamander8]

Lowest I can think of offhand are the basic slave forces (triton, merfolk, atlantians, not Lobo Guards of course) of R'Lyeh with 8.

[Jazzepi]

8 is extremely low, by the way, in enemy dominion it becomes a 7.

To give you an example, I was attempting to take over a province offered to me for sale that had 20 points of PD in it. With about 10 archers, my 7 morale 80 man squad broke in about four volleys.

Jazzepi

[Salamander8]

Yeah 8 is very bad. That's the main reason I try to not build many of those types and stick with the less skilled, but mindless Lobo Guards as any R'Lyeh. Although I have had a lot of success with the cowardly troops with a hero with the valor hall of fame ability leading them.

[sector24]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that any unit actually has morale that low. But the in game description says that average human morale is 10, 8 is low and 15 is high. I have a hard time understanding how 9 is "low". One less than average isn't really panicky, is it? It sure isn't in games when elephants are used against me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Wahnsinniger]

Since I cannot find the thread that talked endlessly about fixing elephant rushes...I'll post this here. Why not just make it impossible to have animal and non-animal units in the same squad. It makes no sense anyway. A bunch of militia wouldn't be sharing a barracks with a bunch of war dogs, and no elite soldiers would fight right alongside elephants because of their unreliability. That way the Elephants 'relatively' low morale couldn't be boosted by high-morale units.

[sum1lost]

Jazzepi said:
I don't think any unit in the game has base morale that low.

Jazzepi



Markatas, maybe?

[sector24]

Honestly, the only way I've dealth with elephants successfully is to find the province that they're being produced in and use spells to reduce the population/resources to 0 or the put the unrest over 100. Once the elephants get on the field, the only thing that will stop them is an army much larger and more expensive.

[Gandalf Parker]

And again I am forced to wonder why there are unstoppable tactics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Not wondering that there is one, but that there is more than one. Wouldnt that mean that one such tactic (for example, elephants) can be challenged by the other such tactic (dual-bless, Vanheim, etc)?

[OmikronWarrior]

Starvation will send morale to the pits as well (-4, I think). Still, the issue with elephants isn't so much how low or high their morale is, but what it takes to trigger a morale check. Your best bet is to a spell causing fear (such as Frighten), as almost any other method involves inflicing a lot of casualties (which is very hard to do to elephants due to their very high HP) or getting close with a creature with the Fear attribute (which means expossing that unit to the tramplers). A morale of 8 means their is a roughly 50/50 chance of a rout depending on the current survivor bonus. Considering how not all nations have easy access to death magic, this isn't much of a solution. In the "qm said" thread, I propose a new game meachanic which pits the tramplers morale against the total weapon length in the desired square.

[sector24]

It's not that Elephants are unstoppable. Dual bless is great, except that you either sleep your pretender or take bad scales or both. Meaning you have to commit a higher % of your resources to kill his elephants, while you beats you by simply having better scales or more research or both.

I'm not sure what you mean by Vanheim. Although they are a ridiculously powerful nation, trampling is the one thing that really messes them up. I think the reason people talk about elephants so much is because they require no strategy. Oh look, elephants. Build a fortress in that province, all of a sudden you can make 7-8 elephants per turn. Look at me I'm a master tactician. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Well my favorite response tactic to any large unbeatable army of any type is to create armies of stealth to whittle down their support funds by taking provinces, taxing them at 200%, fading into the wilderness to attack another province two or three away. This forces them to invest in PD, move armies around internally instead of massing them to attack someone else, and make some hard choices about budgeting for awhile. It might not be a "winning" strategy but it has been known to cause them to lose their "winning" strategy long enough to knock them off the top rung. Its a great ally-tactic.

[Xietor]

"Well my favorite response tactic to any large unbeatable army of any type is to create armies of stealth to whittle down their support funds by taking provinces, taxing them at 200%, fading into the wilderness to attack another province two or three away. This forces them to invest in PD, move armies around internally instead of massing them to attack someone else, and make some hard choices about budgeting for awhile. It might not be a "winning" strategy but it has been known to cause them to lose their "winning" strategy long enough to knock them off the top rung. Its a great ally-tactic."

And my favorite tactic is to mind hunt the stealth commander before he can stealth away and kill his leaderless army.

[Rytek]

No mention of an awake pretender killing the pachyderms?

[Shovah32]

Xietor said:
And my favorite tactic is to mind hunt the stealth commander before he can stealth away and kill his leaderless army.



*Insert stealthy astral mage here* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

@Rytek:
Certain awake pretenders, generally size 6 pretenders with good defence/high prot, can handle elephant rushes. Size 6 is almost required without high fear and/or awe(trampled to death without - berserk elephants are evil). The high protection/defence on the size 6 is important because elephant trunks, although only at attack 10, can pack quite a punch(17 damage).

[Sir_Dr_D]

Xietor said:

And my favorite tactic is to mind hunt the stealth commander before he can stealth away and kill his leaderless army.



i noticed that. what you have done to my spies is not very nice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But I must say, nice job.

[Dedas]

I'm posting some small replays on the first page when I'm using the different spells in the list against elephants. Be sure to check them out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dedas]

Added a replay when I'm using Terror and Panic.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I just found out an interesting fact. Awe works against elephants. That surprised me. I didn't think that awe would effect trample.

[Kuritza]

Afaik stealth is resolved before global spells.

[Xietor]

It does not matter if stealth is resolved before the mind hunt is cast or not, since mind hunt works on stealthed units.

I mean think about it, how can you hide your mind?

[sum1lost]

Xietor said:
It does not matter if stealth is resolved before the mind hunt is cast or not, since mind hunt works on stealthed units.

I mean think about it, how can you hide your mind?



Along with the rest of you, I imagine. Maybe in a hole?

How do stealthy units hide?

[Xietor]

A mind hunt is looking for your brain waves. It is cast from a remote province. Visual sighting is not used for the spell.

So the spell is working as intended imho. You can hide your body from prying eyes, but you cannot hide your brain waves from a mage doing a mind hunt.

[sum1lost]

Xietor said:
A mind hunt is looking for your brain waves. It is cast from a remote province. Visual sighting is not used for the spell.

So the spell is working as intended imho. You can hide your body from prying eyes, but you cannot hide your brain waves from a mage doing a mind hunt.



If I remember biology class correctly, a staff of storms may do that pretty well, or maybe even a ring of tamed lightening.

[Endoperez]

Xietor said:
A mind hunt is looking for your brain waves. It is cast from a remote province. Visual sighting is not used for the spell.



No no no, you got it all wrong. It's looking for the MIND, and as we all know, the mind is located in the center of your being, in your heart, while the interior of one's head is there to remove the extraneous heat from the body. I learned this from the Pteleos of Arcoscephale, the reknowned philosopher.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

In other words, we don't know how Mind Hunt works.

[HoneyBadger]

As far as awe affecting trampling-have you ever avoided stepping on a flower? It's the same principle.

As far as having real tactics in the game-we'll never have that until we have field fortifications and other factors that depend on an army's location on the combat map. Putting your archers behind your melee troops isn't tactics, it's just obvious common sense.

As far as elephants go, pygmies would hunt them with spears. They'd just run up to the elephant and stick them with the spear. Seeing as how pygmies are the smallest people, as a whole, and elephants are the largest and most dangerous quadrupeds, it can be supposed that pygmies are some brave little bastards.

Elephants are already overly nerfed, anyway. They should definitely have a gore attack, bull elephants should be capable of going berserk, and there's no reason they shouldn't be outfitted with armor. So, when faced with an army of elephants, I count my blessings.

[Maraxus]

1: Crossbowman, if available.

2: Casters with some low-level spells like:
Earth Grasp
Vine Arrow
Slime
Sleep/Sleep Cloud.


One key to successful trampling is, that the tramplers stay in formation. If you manage to break them up by delaying a few of them for a turn, than those that do not get delayed will hopefully find a swift death in your troops.



I'm not sure, does Awe help against trampling? In that case, the Naiad Warriors could help a lot, too.

[Aezeal]

how do you deal with mammoths around turn 10 with ermor MA.. not that easy I think.. I mostly have close combat troops...

any suggestions..

or will my S9W9 blessed vestals be able to deal with them

how much vestels would it take to take down about 10 mammoths?

[sum1lost]

Thaumaturgy : mindburn, paralyze, soulslay.

[Aezeal]

I do not have that turn 10 with ermor atm

[sum1lost]

Go for them. They're key spells to ermor, and accessible early. You should at least have mindburn by then.

[Theonlystd]

Ma Ermor get slingers? Cant remember, those wont kill em but hopefully rout em from wounding em?

[AlgaeNymph]

About the spells, how do you make sure they're cast specifically at the elephants?

[sum1lost]

Single target spells have high hitpoint, big size units as their main priority target, I believe. And elephants have low magic resistance.

[Kristoffer O]

Yep, the elephants will almost always be targeted due to
1 hig hitpoints
2 low mr so tpells actually affect them
3 closeness to caster. Quite soon they will have trampled their way close enough to be a special threat

[atul]

MA Ermor has ethereal high-defence recruitables. They're the last to worry about pesky elephants.

[Meglobob]

Yes, shadow vestals with quickness will slaughter elephants with few losses. You might want to put them into smaller groups of 10 with attack large monster orders. So they don't get distracted until all the elephants have gone to the great elephant graveyard.

[Aezeal]

in that particular army there are no other creatures

I'm still a bit fussy about how the elephants trample though.. usually everything I put infront of them just.. disappears ... why will that be different for shadow vestals

another question.. : so about 15 shadow vestals with astral and water high bless could beat 10 mammoths?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

In army like Ulm, with low defense units, you might consider a spell like Will o' the Wisp. I've never used this spell yet, but it strikes me that they might actually be useful. High defense, ethereal, fire burst attack, and three hitpoints- enough to withstand three failed tramples.

Since I've never used it, something I'll remedy ASAP, can anyone tell me how the spell works? If you cast it the first turn, will they arrive in time to intercept the elephants?

[Aezeal]

about my shadow vestals... see 2 postas above... help me please.. I need to decide before next turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Why are people talking about defence. IIRC, defence does not apply during trampling attacks.

OTOH etherial should provide the standard defence (ie: 3 out of 4 trampling attacks will be avoided).

[Aezeal]

OK that is usefull information I was not sure about that.. will my twist fate (S9 bless) work too?

still the high HP of the Mammoth might be annoying

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Oh? Defense? I believe the manual states that defense does apply during trample. Attack doesn't, but defense does. If you succeed in a defense roll, you only take 1 damage, and are still displaced. But that's worlds better than the full trample damage.

[Meglobob]

The vestals quickness will mean they will inflict damage very quickly, so kill quickly.

Your vestals are etheral so will be bounced around like the steel ball in a pinball machine. Some will die but it will take some time.

15 vestals vs 10 mammoths, not sure. I would have 30 just to be certain.

Will of the wisps may well do well against elephants. They appear on the map edge, so will be a distraction for the rest of your army.

[thejeff]

Twist Fate will work. Once.

The high hp will slow you down. Vestals aren't real high damage if I remember.

As some one else suggested, archers or slingers will help too. Mammoths are low prot and unshielded. It'll whittle down the hp and hopefully break the morale.

Try spamming fear spells. Frighten, Terror if you've got it.

[Humakty]

What is your magic support ?

[Aezeal]

not much a grand theurg I can do all the blessings but not much more

[konming]

15 Vestal is only 300 Gold, that compare to 10 mammoths at 1200 Gold is certainly not a fair comparation. Still I believe 15 S9W9 shadow vestals will still beat 10 mammoths.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I don't remember, do elephants stop when they encounter an enemy, or do they just trample straight on through to your back lines?

Hmmm... an awake pretender could definetly help with research, as well as a few other things, but I'll assume for simplicity's sake that you've recruited a Thaumaturg each turn, dedicated to research. (4+40)/2 * 10. So, maybe 220 rp to commit. Say... level three in one school, give or take.

I am curious whether Astral Shield responds to tramplers at all, or only melee attacks.

Well.. have you considered throwing in a few dozen Retarius? Even 10 of them are cheaper than one elephant, let alone ten elephants. And if they manage to net one or two elephants, it'll cover the cost. As a small bonus, they have a higher combined damage of 19+DRN versus the Shadow Vestal's 14+DRN. I hate to recruit one-use troops, but elephants seem like a good enough cause. I'd use the vestals to hold the center, and the retarius to hold the flanks.

[Aezeal]

hmm I've just started this game.. what you say will take half the current turns to plan and reach the damn beasts... I wasnt expecting this betrayal. His mammoths are in the provinces a bit away from my capital.. I guess I'll try to avoid them for now just switching provinces a bit and if my (what previously was an expansion) army meets him then hope for the best.

Mean while I'll crush his other armies and race for his capitol

[Autochthon]

Lord Blackadder: How to deal with these rampaging herds of elephants? I need a plan...

Baldrick: My Lord, I have a cunning plan. If I may?

Lord Blackadder: This had better be good - Let us not forget you tried to solve the problem of your mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.

Baldrick: My Lord, I have heard tales from those who have been to far off "La Brea", and they speak of a thing that devours even the mightiest of elephants without fail.

Lord Blackadder: Oh? And what is this "thing" you speak of?

Baldrick: They call this most dreadful of incantations, "Summon Tar Pit", my Lord.

-Time passes. Some mana and fatigue are spent. The elephants sink beneath a tarry mass the suddenly appears under their feet. Interestingly, some wandering Sabertooth Tigers are also caught in the trap.-

Lord Blackadder: HA! Got them with my subtle plan!

Baldrick: My Lord, that was -my- idea...

Lord Blackadder: Baldrick, you wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle plans are here again!"

Apologies to Blackadder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Forrest]

While I have never played MP, every time I face elephants I know who to call.

Wolf tribe warriors. Stick them in the very front with attack large orders. They will have those big boys carved up and on the grill before anyone else can move. If I know it's coming I keep a stack of them in reserve for just this purpose.

Also, how about a food bonus for a turn for each elephant kill. I know my troops are eating them even though I don't see a bonus for it.

[Aristander]

My .02

In my first multiplayer game I was elephant rushed by Arcoscephale. I was playing Machaka and stoped his initial rush with Black Hunters. It seemed to me that the web ability slowed down the elephants enough for me to beat them off. I wonder if any of the troops with nets may be used as well?

[Yrkoon]

Aristander, I think black hunters are size 6 and therefore cannot be trampled. Are you sure it's not their size rather than the webs that stopped the elephants ?

As for nets, I think high strength allows to break free from them. And elephants are very strong so the nets would work only for 1 turn. Same for tangle vines. But slime should work : it's MR negates and elephants have an abysmal MR. I'm not sure about earth meld.

[Endoperez]

Earth Grip, after which Earth Meld is modeled, is strength-based.

[thejeff]

But it takes a turn to break free. That's a turn you're not being trampled and a turn you can hit them easily.

You'll need a lot of net troops, but you can keep netting them.

Probably doesn't scale. Large enough numbers of elephants should be able to overwhelm any number of net troops, but large numbers of elephants are expensive...

[Yrkoon]

I have found that indie woodsman blowpipes are really really good against the pachyderms. I am in a SP game at the minute and dealing with Caelian mammoths.

The blowpipe are easy to recruit (10 gold, 3 resources), they have a ranged attack and they paralyse the beasts. I think it's 25 fatigue per shot and size 6 elephants are, well, easy to aim at. 4 shots and you have a sleeping mammoth that cannot move, cannot defend, and takes lots of critical hits. Plus they cannot run away it's easy to slay them all.

I acknowledge that blowpipes are random indies so they are not a surefire way of dealing with elephants. If you can't recruit them, tough.

Does anyone know if a MR check is necessary for the paralysing poison to work ? I don't think the darts need to inflict damage to paralyse but even with mammoth (prot 13) they fell asleep in no time. Darts should be efficient with other large animals like hydras I guess, or troglodites, minautors and the like.

[Folket]

"Darts should be efficient with other large animals like hydras I guess, or troglodites, minautors and the like. "

That is very strange. Large creatures should be able to take more poison into thier system before collapsing.

I do not think there is a MR for the poison. That would just be plain wrong.

[Yrkoon]

The poison on the dart causes fatigue, it does not damage health. And all creatures, whether they are tiny hoburgs or huge elephants, fall asleep at 100 fatigue. So the size does not affect the efficiency of the darts.
Except it's easier to hit a large target, and few large enemies will each be hit more times than many human size soldiers.

[vfb]

Dedas said:
Masses of elephants are a big threat even early on, so how to deal with them effectively? Let us begin by looking on the elephant's weak points.
...

Terror D3 - moderate level (4), very low fatigue (10), long range (25), some precision (+1), great area effect (5+).

Pros
Just as Frighten but with lower fear attack (+10) and much greater area of effect. Excellent spell overall. A hordes of elephants are no problem if you have a couple of sauromancers spamming this. Just drive them before you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cons
Can be hard to cast for most nations not into death. Will hit your own troops. No problem with mindless though.

Check out the replay for a demonstration:
TerrorPanic (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=540554)

Note that the elephants all have +2 morale (11) making it harder for this spell to work.

...



This is kind of funny. If you watch the replay in 3.10, all the elephants run away. But if you watch it in 3.14, then even though the turn messages say you won, you get squished http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I recently tried Terror/Panic in 3.14 and it didn't work very well ... luckily the Swamp Guard has pretty good defense! Plus I brought along a few indy elephants of my own as blockers. Good thing I did!

In a different game, I'm Mictlan, and got invaded by Troglodytes. A few Turkeys spamming Mesmerize allowed me to wipe them out really easily. And it's available from turn one! I think a bunch of Turkeys would do well against a horde of Elephants too.

[Dedas]

Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Replays between versions doesn't seem to be compatible.

I always wondered if that turkey shape with mesmerize attack could get in handy somehow. Nice catch!

[Jarl]

As Man I got elephant dinner for a full month with this tactic: About 100 longbow archers, Wind Guide + Flamming Arrows. 3 mages casting Howl (the wolfs show up at the sides of the battlemap - distracting the enemy), Swarm and Sleep. I also had a few surviving knights and a large pack of indi light infantry and some surviving man infantry. This killed a large army with lots of infantry and about 40+ elephants.

This was my final battle, close to the source of the elephants - far from my sources of knights (that had been my preferd way to take out small numbers of elephants).

I was lucky and got a indy mage with fire, boosted him and managed to cast flaming arrows. My conclusion; I hate elephants and I do not like people using them!
Go home Hannibal!

[Dedas]

He he, well done sir! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't Construction have a low-level Fire item that does Bonds of Fire? Fire Bola, or something?

-Max

[Endoperez]

It's low-level (const 2) in Conceptual Balance, but it's range: strength. That limits it's usefulness quite badly, because the commanders won't get any shots off before the elephants are close enough to trample them too, if you're unlucky. Also, it's more expensive to mass Fire Bolas than elephants.

Besides that, you also need fire income, and if you get that you can just cast Bonds with your fire mages.

[Alderanas]

All i do is thug out something with ethereal and one of the very nice flame weapons. I try to make it a flying unit with the ability to hurt others when its hurt. course thats not really an early age stop to elephants.

[anticipatient]

how about mind burn?

<edit> oops, i think this has been covered.

a higher level astral mage may be able to kill an elephant a turn with it, though. armor negating, 12+ damage. I don't know how the "+" is handled.

[Endoperez]

anticipatient said:
how about mind burn?

<edit> oops, i think this has been covered.

a higher level astral mage may be able to kill an elephant a turn with it, though. armor negating, 12+ damage. I don't know how the "+" is handled.



+ indicates that the spell's damage, area of effect, number of effects or similar scales.

The amount of scaling is already included in the initial value. Most spells with a plus have a bonus of 2-4 per level. I think Mind Burn is S2 spell listed as 12 points of damage. It could be e.g. [8 + 2*level] or [10 + level] points of damage, so S8 caster would deal 18 to 24 points of average. At most it could be 6*level damage, but I don't think any spell scales that well.

Scaling area of effect is much more useful, most times, as is penetration bonus from extra levels of magic (+1 penetration per two levels above minimum, manual explains it very well). Water 9 pretender and Falling Frost (both damage and AoE scale) is very powerful.

[llamabeast]

In any case you certainly couldn't take an elephant down with a single Mind Burn.

[Leif_-]

llamabeast said:
In any case you certainly couldn't take an elephant down with a single Mind Burn.



Well, of course not, everybody knows that elephants never forget.

[JimMorrison]

But elephants have morale issues, and a single mind burn -could- rout the formation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif