Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - PLAYING)

[Thrawn]

So, I would like to try and host a PBEM COOPERATIVE game. As in, with established teams. This seems like a fun idea, as I always like playing cooperatively in games, so it seems like a worthy experiment. If I can get 8 like minded, serious players who would be interested, we'll give it a shot.

With 8 players, we can try a 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2 setup.

The first game will probably be a learning experience. Once we get 8 players (assuming there's enough interest) we can hash out these details further.

The players are:

1 - Thrawn - Marignon DEFEATED
2 - Tromper - Pythium
3 - Baalz - Ulm DEFEATED
4 - Micah - R'lyeh
5 - Folket - Pangaea
6 - DrPraetorious - Machaka
7 - Shovah32 - Oceania
8 - Burnsaber - Abysia

TEAMS:
Team 1 - Shovah32, Micah
The Briny Deeps - R'lyeh and Oceania

Team 2 - Tromper, Folket
The Eastern Empire - Pythium and Pangaea

Team 3 - Baalz, Thrawn
The Western Empire - Ulm and Marignon DEFEATED!

Team 4 - DrPraetorius, Burnsaber
The Fiery South - Abysia and Machaka


CURRENT RULES:

1. Random team pairings

2. Nations grouped by theme

3. Random selection of theme

4. Once game begins, no hostile actions can be made until at least after the 12th turn (but no one is required to attack on turn 13 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

5. Standard victory condition. Default settings, except no graphs, and renaming is allowed.

[llamabeast]

This sounds great, although unfortunately I'm too busy to join myself at the mo.

Anyway, I just thought I would say that you'd be welcome to use the LlamaServer to run the game if you want to (you would still have control of the game - take a look at the "admin options" link on one of the game pages on llamaserver.net).

[Baalz]

Sounds like fun, I'm in.

I'm not sure how you do it, but I've seen it done in other games where you have set starting positions for a specific nation. You could (if you were inclined) arrange that allies are adjacent. That would be particularly necessary if there are more than 2 teams.

I'm a fan of random nation selection, perhaps after the teams are assigned random nations are assigned to each team, who then decide which player gets what nation?

[Ubercat]

I'm interested. If we use random nations however I'd want plenty of time to familiarize myself with the nation that I draw, assuming it's one of the many I have little or no experience playing. Say, a week from nation assignments to game start. Is that reasonable?

[tromper]

I have zero experience with mods, but I'd definitely be into trying out the Worthy Heroes one, which adds spice. I'm ambivalent generally though, so will leave the choices up to you guys.

[Thrawn]

Llamabeast - Thanks for the offer of your server. I've been in a few PBEM games that used it, and it was really helpful.

Ubercat - I'm not opposed to the idea of a delay to game start to familiarize yourself with the nation. We'll just have to see what the consensus is on how long.

Baalz - I will look for this mod, it seems like something that would exist. I also think your idea for assigning nations after teams are picked is a good one.

I'm going to start a list of rules, as we have them currently, in the original post. Also a list of mods that might be useful (but those would still be open for debate).

[Folket]

I'm in the game. Either we randomize nations or we bid for nations ones teams are randomized.

[Thrawn]

Folket, what do you mean by "bid"?

[Baalz]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think it was a mod, I think a property of the map. I think DrPraetorious set this up for the Perpetuality game, I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.

[llamabeast]

See Gandalf's posts in 'Noob questions about AI and diplomacy' on the main board.

[DrPraetorious]

Sounds good, let us do this thing (I would like to play).

Yeah, if you want to bid for nations (or draft for nations), I need to randomize (or fix) the start locations.

This might be a good idea anyway, since then we can assure that allies start out adjacent. Or non-adjacent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, which actually I think works better.
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Means that each player is adjacent to all four of his enemies! Doesn't that sound like fun?

[Baalz]

I just had a thought that might be fun (after reading Gandalf's post): Maybe we can assign thematic team nations before we assign who's on what team. For instance, we could have the underwater nation team, a cold dominion team, a demon team, a nation of men team, etc. Then we just randomly assign people to each team and then they decide which nations they'll play out of the nations on that team. For instance, if we have 2 person teams and someone gets the underwater team then between the two of them they get to pick between R'yleh, Oceana, and Atlantis.

[Thrawn]

Well, since you're going to play, I'd be happy to have you fix the start locations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Everyone share your thoughts on:

1. Do allies want to start adjacent or non-adjacent?

2. Do we want to "bid" for nations, or randomly assign? I'm still unclear what "bid" means.

3. We now have six players. It filled up pretty quick. Do we want to keep it at six, or extend it to 8 or 9?

[Thrawn]

That sounds really cool to me too, Baalz. I love the roleplaying aspects, and that would bring out those elements even more.

[Baalz]

My votes are:

1) Adjacent allies

2) Assign teams as I describe above

3) The more the merrier, I'd be very happy with 3 vs 3 vs 3 (vs 3)

4) You didn't mention an era. I don't have a preference but we should probably settle on one.

[Micah]

If you're upping the player limit sign me up, I've been wanting to do a team game for a while.

[DrPraetorious]

If we do adjacent-allies, how about 4 teams of 2, arranged either on a ringworld or on the corners of a non-wrapping square?

So, either each team has an enemy on each side, or each team gets a corner.

As for eras - if we're going to do "themes", we should do mid era. Early era themes (Niefelheim + Lanka vs Marverni + Ulm in a cage match to the death!) may not be fair.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, I don't really have a preference on era, but I was thinking that the themes would have 3 nations apiece with maybe 2 players so you'd have the choice of not going with Marverni (for example), and we could fudge the themes a bit if necessary to make sure things like a Niefelhiem/Lanka pair up didn't happen. For EA I'd see something like this (I'm going from memory so I'm sure I left out some nations):

Lanka, Yomi, Kailissa&lt;sp&gt; (demonic and otherwordly)
Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og however-the-hell-you-spell-it (Vanir and family)
Mictlan, Ulm, Sauromatia (barbarians)
T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor (civilization)
C'tis, Pangea, Abyssia (half men)
R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis (underwater)
Niefelhiem, Caelum, Marverni (frozen - biggest thematic fudging)

[Baalz]

We could even do a bidding for the teams if we felt like getting fancy.

[Ubercat]

I'd love to be in this game but I need to bow out. It will bite me in the *** in a few weeks for being in too many games at once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

-Ubercat

[Thrawn]

This is all sounding GREAT.

Let's do 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2. So, opening it up to 8. Micah, you're in.

I also like the idea of starting in the corners of a non-wrapping square, per DrPraetorious. DrPraetorious would you like to be our map builder? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm still open as to the Era. I like EA the best, but if EA is for some reason unfair for 2 v 2 themes, MA is cool by me.

BTW Baalz, i've been using your guide to bloodhunting for a MA game in playing Abysia. VERY helpful.

[Thrawn]

Also, can someone explain the process of "bidding" for nations?

[Folket]

Well it was just a suggestion.

Each player pick one nation to be in the game. After that players bid on nation with pretender design points to see who get to play what nation.

That will make the stronger nations have somewhat weaker gods.

[Micah]

Bidding works by either having the players give up a portion of their design points to get the choice they want or giving some sort of bonus to the people/teams that don't get their first choice (or a combo, I guess).

For example, say we're dueling on a small map, Helheim vs Marverni. I would bid say, 500 design points on Helheim, which means if I get Helheim I'd leave 500 design points unspent when making my god. You can then do either one round or multiple rounds of bidding. If it's one round puts in a bid at the same time, and whoever bids the most "lost" points gets the nation at their specified handicap. If there are multiple rounds each player goes back and forth, nudging up the value until only one person is willing to take the handicap.

Similar situation with bonuses, only in reverse.

Oh, and Abysian blood hunting is easy, since you don't have to make any hard choices...you ALWAYS get a blood mage every turn with MA Aby...cap only sucks, but there's a certain simplicity that comes with it that's nice.

[DrPraetorious]

The bonuses are more properly a "draft" then a bid. Everyone drafts their nation of choice, and anyone forced to take a round X draft pick gets (round X-1) bonuses.

Well, are the following teams balanced?
R'lyeh + Atlantis
Helheim + Tir
Mictlan + Sauromatia
Niefelheim + Caelum
Pangaea + Abysia (but not certain, EA C'tis can be powerful if allowed to fester)
Lanka + (Yomi or Kailasa, not sure)

and... I suspect T'ien Ch'i + Arco would be the strongest pair, but I'm not certain. Ermor's death magic really complements.

Anyhoo, yeah, that's close enough to balanced that, with a draft, it should work out okay.

Let's do the draft *before* I put the map together, so that I know whether to put a pair of water start locations in one of the quadrants.

Also, pick a province total, and a bonus to apply after each round assuming we are doing the draft.

[Thrawn]

Okay, the bidding thing makes sense to me. We can do that, if that's the route we want.

First, we should pick our era. I like EA, personally. If we went EA, and the 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2 approach, we could have four teams setup based on Baalz thematic structure above. Since he picked three nations per theme, that would leave each team of to pick one nation each.

The themes were:

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Kailissa
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Ulm, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Abyssia
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Marverni

Can we find four of these themes that seem to be a fair mix?

Would MA be more fair?

Once, we get this locked up, we can decide if we want to bid for the themes, or just random roll them.

[Thrawn]

Sorry, DrPraetorious. Must have been open typing while you were. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am open to whatever mix we all agree is fair.

[Micah]

I'd swap out Marverni and Ulm for thematics in Thrawn's list, since Marverni's not at all a cold nation, but they're certainly pagan/barbaric. Ulm as a "frozen" nation is a bit of an overstatement, but they have a scale preference and 50% CR.

I might also swap out Kailasa and Abysia...Aby's got a lot more going on in demon land, and I think monkies are close to half-men, no?

If we're not using all the nations anyhow I like the idea of picking out 2 of the 3 available, since it'll allow for more flexibility.

[Thrawn]

So, rearranging per Micah...

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Abysia
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Marverni, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Kailasa
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Ulm

I think Praetorious was saying the T'ien C'hi/Arco/Ermor combo might be too powerful? We have 7 groups, which means we can lose 3, if we feel they are unfair.

[Thrawn]

Praetorious: 220 or 230 province total? That's 55 per team. Sound right?

No idea about the bonus.

[Micah]

It sounded to me like DrP was debating which 2 of the 3 to include as the nation choices, as opposed to saying they would be overpowered in relation to the other teams. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The teams look pretty good to me, although the Half-Men faction might be a bit weak (And I don't think Abysia being back in there would change that). That being said there are 3 spare teams, so no big deal even if I'm right (and I might not be since it's hard to read how this will play out). No one has to play them.

[DrPraetorious]

All I was saying was that I think T'ien Ch'i and Arco are both more powerful than EA Ermor, but not by much. What about Agartha?

I'll start cranking out maps. Do we want water, or no?

On balance:
Nifelheim + Caelum - this looks scaaaary. Caelum raids while Niefelheim punches in the face, and you get excellent magic diversity.
Helheim + Tir - not as powerful as it looks, since the two positions don't contribute that much to one another. Still, raiding bless rushers can coordinate to cause serious hurt.
Lanka + Abysia - Brutal, and covers every path except water quite well.
Pangaea + Kailasa - I hope you like nature. Decent, but not terrifically exciting.
Arco + T'ien Ch'i - If they can survive to take advantage of their great research and gem income, very powerful indeed. But probably will be killed early.
R'lyeh + Atlantis - If their quadrant is mostly water, but there's little or no water elsewhere, should be balanced.

[Baalz]

You forgot Mictlan + Sauromatia - jaguar warriors or poison archers should cover most everybody and strong research with good blood on both sides could be quite deadly.

I'd say stick Argatha on the half men team, it marginally fits and I agree that theme needs a little help.

[Thrawn]

Reading all this, I'm really excited to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hopefully we will get two more soon. If not, can always do 2 vs 2 vs 2.

DrP: yes, let's do water.

Alright, so another adjustment to the themes:

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Abysia
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Marverni, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Agartha
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Ulm

I'll post this at the top as well.

We have the age and nations. Obviously, we'll do random teams. I have a random roll dice program which I'll use once we get 8 (or decide on 6).

After that, do we want to bid/draft for the theme each team will play? Or, random that as well? Seems like the consensus is for bid/draft.

[Aethyr]

Thrawn,

I am definately interested, but I'm in three games right now and don't want to overbook myself...it's relly a shame when work gets in the way of your gaming!

Anyway, if there is any potential for a "round two" at a later date, please pencil me in. Thanks

[Folket]

When did we decide on early era?

[Thrawn]

Well, Folket, I guess you're right. All the talk about fairness for the themes being batted around seemed to focus on EA. But, I am fine with MA as well. Let's vote on EA vs. MA, and I will tally.

[Baalz]

EA

[tromper]

Pretty much 3/4s of the MP games I've kindly allowed other players to kick me in the balls with have been EA. I swing toward MA for spice, but EA will be fine if that's how the cookie crumbles.

[DrPraetorious]

230 provinces, 1725x1725 pixels, 30% water *by area*, which is something l.t. 20% water provinces, and is balanced.

I've put little colored diamonds over the eight start locations, paired by teams.

The southern team is a little bit crowded and the northern and eastern teams end up with a bit too much breathing space, maybe - but it's not a big enough difference that it won't be outweighed by luck and/or the playstyle of your neighbours.

Looking forward to the game,
TNDP

[Thrawn]

2 votes for EA, 1 for MA so far.

Sounds great DrP! Let's get these final issues settled up so we can get started.

[Thrawn]

Come on guys, vote on your era. And we still need 2 more for an 8 player game, so if you know anyone let them know.

[Micah]

I've got a slight preference for MA I suppose, but don't really care that much. Use it as a tiebreak vote maybe?

[Thrawn]

So, 2 votes EA, 2 votes MA, 2 votes outstanding.

[Shovah32]

I have no real preference but count me in - sounds like fun.

[Burnsaber]

Sounds like a ton of fun. Count me in! I prefer MA.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm agnostic, but it looks like middle era wins - and I'm voting for middle era on that basis.

Hooookay, middle era themes:

The Briny Deeps - R'lyeh, Atlantis, Oceania
The Western Empire - Ulm, Ermor, Marignon
The Eastern Empire - Arcoscephale, Pythium, Pangaea
The Near North - Eriu, Man, Vanheim
The Far East - Shinuyama, T'ien Ch'i, Bandar Log
The Fiery South - Abysia, Machaka, Mictlan
The Monsters - Agartha, Jotunheim, C'tis, Caelum

How's that?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well... I'm not going to be involved, but if you'd like my suggestion for middle era themes-teams based on flavor...
I really don't think the water teams belong together. They have a long antagonistic relationship to each other. Unfortunately, my suggestions might not mesh well with random. Feel free to disregard, since I'm not involved in the game. Are you going with themed teams, or merely themed random factions with teams not necessarily of the same theme?

What I'd do is split them up, and attach them to teams without any amphibious presence.

Agartha, Shinuyama, Ermor have some level of amphibious presence. I can't remember off hand who also has easy access through nationals or summons, but you get the idea.

As a team, Agartha, Jotunheim, C'tis, and Caelum are very uncomfortable allies - two coldblooded nations and two cold-thriving nations? Rules out some global enchantments, makes border dominion uncomfortable.

All that said, a team of watery factions makes good enough sense if you ignore the fluff history of the races.

[Kristoffer O]

This game looks very interesting. Unfortunately I will probably not have time to play another one until my current game is finished (having myself a nice big empire built on Baalz former empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

If any similar games appears later on I'm interested (unless caught up in other time consuming games).

MA TC and MA Mictlan is upped a bit with the next patch, just so you know. It is not too far away, say a week or two. TC gets increased magic versatility with their new alchemists and apothecaries. Mictlan gets air magic. Blessings on undead work as they should. And a number of other small fixes.

[Thrawn]

Those themes look good to me, DrP. And, we now have EIGHT players, with Burnsaber and Shovah joining.

I will random assign the teams, and post here. Then we can either random the themes, or go for bid/draft. Will post teams today, in an hour or so!

[Thrawn]

TEAMS:

1 - Shovah32, Micah
2 - Tromper, Folket
3 - Baalz, Thrawn
4 - DrPraetorius, Burnsaber

Do we want to random the themes, or engage a bid/draft process? I'm fine with bid/draft, but I've never hosted one, so someone with more experience will have to run that part of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thrawn]

The patch sounds sweet, Kris...

[Burnsaber]

Yee-haw! Wih DrPraetorious at my side, I.. oh.. WE can't lose!

I'm not sure if we need to bid. The teams look quite balanced to me. But, two questions.

1) Do we get some to familiarize ourselves? I might end up with a nation I haven't played so much with (for example last time I played Arco or Man was in Dom:PPP). Couple of days should be enough. If people are eager to start I'm sure that we could come to an agreement with DrPraetorius where he plays something I'm not familiar with.

2) What are the victory conditions? The usual "others quit" or something else? I think capitol VP's should be in the spirit of this experiment.

[Shovah32]

I like the sound of randomly assigning the themes so thats where my vote is.

Welcome, Micah.

[Baalz]

Yeah, lets just random them and get it going. Looks like I'll have to wait for another game to enact my revenge on K. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Thrawn]

Random it is. Posting in a bit...

[Shovah32]

Is a bit over yet?!?!?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

sorry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Thrawn]

Yes! It's over! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

TEAMS:

Team 1 - Shovah32, Micah
The Briny Deeps - R'lyeh, Atlantis, Oceania

Team 2 - Tromper, Folket
The Eastern Empire - Arcoscephale, Pythium, Pangaea

Team 3 - Baalz, Thrawn
The Western Empire - Ulm, Ermor, Marignon

Team 4 - DrPraetorius, Burnsaber
The Fiery South - Abysia, Machaka, Mictlan

So, here's how I did this, if anyone's interested. I didn't use my random roll app like last time, since we had two variables. I got real complicated and put the numbers 1-4 on pieces of paper in a cup. Then numbers 1-7 in a second cup (actually, it was a coffee mug, but who's checking?).

I drew from the cup, which gave me the team. Then drew from the mug, which gave me the theme. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I was worried we might end up without a water team after we had made the map with water provinces, but they were actually the first theme drawn.

So, discuss with your teammate which of the three nations in your new theme you want to play.

I'll post the above info on the first page, as well as the game settings and victory conditions (though, it's going to be pretty standard). Everybody can weigh in on those options if they'd like.

We're going to use llamabeast's PBEM server, which makes things much easier (at least for me).

We should be ready for Pretenders soon! Can't wait to get started!

[Thrawn]

Teams, post your nation choices when you figure them out.

[Shovah32]

How much water is on this map, by the way?

[Thrawn]

According to DrP: "230 provinces, 1725x1725 pixels, 30% water *by area*, which is something l.t. 20% water provinces, and is balanced."

You can download the map on his post on page 3. I'll put it at the top, as well.

If you haven't gotten it already, go ahead and do so.

[Shovah32]

26 Water provinces - 25 in one group. It will suffice.

[llamabeast]

Okay guys, I've created the game on the LlamaServer, so you can start uploading pretenders whenever you're ready. Here's how:

- Go to Game Tools -&gt; Create a pretender god in Dominions
- Go to the savedgames/newlords folder in the dominions directory, and find your pretender file (e.g. mid_pythium_0.2h)
- E-mail the file to: pretenders[ at ]llamaserver[ dot ]net
- Crucially, you must have the game name, 'Allegiances', in the subject line of your e-mail

[Thrawn]

Thanks llamabeast!

[Thrawn]

Team 3: The Western Empire
Baalz - Ulm
Thrawn - Marignon

[DrPraetorious]

Dangit, I wanted the Magenta starts. Ah well.

Within teams you can switch your two start locations, if you wish, I just handed them out in alphabetical order. I just switched ours to give me more forest and him more resources.

Start location assignments:
(Team I - Western / Red) This wasn't randomly assigned obviously they have to be in the water.
Micah - R'lyeh - Southern Red / 57
Shovah32 - Oceania - Northern Red / 146
(Team II - Northern / Cyan)
Folket - Pangaea - Eastern Cyan / 200
Tromper - Pythium - Western Cyan / 190
(Team III - Eastern / Magenta)
Baalz - Ulm - Southern Magenta / 94
Thawn - Marignon - Northern Magenta / 144
(Team IV - Southern / Green)
Burnsaber - Abyssia - Eastern Green / 38
TNDP - Machaka - Western Green / 31

[Thrawn]

Awesome. Teams 1 and 2 post your nation choices ASAP. Once we have our starting points, we can upload pretenders, and get at it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Looking forward to the game.

[tromper]

We'll get to you as soon as we finish early communication - I suspect we're in contrary timezones or somethin'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Shouldn't be too long.

[Folket]

Are we allowed to attack independents during the first 12 turns? Are we sitting in our start province for 12 turns or do we have more provinces?

Are sites, independents default?

[Thrawn]

Folket, you can TOTALLY expand and attack independents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The 12 turn thing just applies to other player nations.

I'll post the game settings info at the top. But, yeah, it's going to be all default, and no graphs.

[DrPraetorious]

I assume renaming will be allowed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif?

[Thrawn]

Sure, I'll do renaming. I like that too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baalz]

The knights of the Western realm ride forth, bent on purging heathen magics from the world. Finding joint cause with our neighbors and brothers, a new pact has been forged - Black Knights and Chalice Knights thunder forth, charged by the twin gods themselves in a holy crusade. Tremble, evil, for the mightiest knights known to man quest forth bent on eliminating all vile sorceries root and stem. Let all denounce their neighbors as hedge wizards, witches and sorcerers for no man should hold secrets in his heart when the inquisitors come knocking. All mankind should rejoice, salvation from the dark tyranny of sorcery which corrupts men's hearts is at hand.

[Folket]

I will play Pangaea and Tromper will play Pythium. We have not decieded our positions yet.

[tromper]

DrP - please swap Pangaea's and Pythium's starting location. Thanks!

[Gandalf Parker]

This game will be very worth keeping an eye on. Some nations which are considered low-choices for winning the game make some great choices as an ally. Using each nations abilities best for its pantheon (team) makes it a whole new game.

[Shovah32]

I will play Oceania and Micah will play R'lyeh.
Can we have a little extra pretender creation time? I was out of commission yesterday with a migraine so havn't really had time to think.

[Thrawn]

That's fine, Shovah.

Everyone, remember you're sending your pretenders to llamaserver. Let me know when you've done that.

DrP, can you finish up the map, and send it to me? Thanks again for doing that.

[Baalz]

Let you know when the pretenders are in? Mine's in.

[llamabeast]

You can also see what pretenders are in on the website.

[Shovah32]

Sending my pretender now.

[Micah]

Oceania will take the northern sea spot, Rlyeh the southern for whoever is arranging the starting locations. Thanks

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, that's what I sent him.

[Bob_Loblaw]

I'm in for this as Aroscephale (however it's spelled)
I sent in my pretender

[Baalz]

Sorry Bob_Loblaw, this is a team game and is closed (can you change the thread title Thrawn?). FYI it's generally bad form to join a game without asking if new players are being accepted, and what nations are still open (or even reading what type of game it is!).

[Folket]

Bob_Loblaw?

Are you taking over for Tromper or something? If not you will have to respect that the game is already full.

[llamabeast]

I'll remove Bob's pretender.

[llamabeast]

Waiting for Machaka.

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, sorry. Sent.

[tromper]

Awww, bummer. We could have had a third teammate! heheh

[llamabeast]

Started!

[llamabeast]

So, there's 48 hours on the clock for the first turn (which hopefully won't even nearly be needed, but just in case of problems), and 24 hours for subsequent turns.

[Thrawn]

Good luck everybody!

[Bob_Loblaw]

Sorry about the misunderstanding!

[Folket]

I have mailed my turn but the server has not updated that on the page. I guess that means that I did something wrong.

[Folket]

What is this? Everyone knows how to do this except me. Someone should at least be able to tell me how to send my 2h file.

[tromper]

Umm, I've no idea what the problem is, but if your pretender was received, you should have gotten an email stating so. A second email arrived after all pretenders were received. The only 'instruction' in the second response email I can imagine you may have missed would be that you need to send the *.2h file back to turns (at) llamaserver (dot) net.

Perhaps you were trying to send it to the pretender address? Or it wasn't the *.2h file? Or the llamaserver fell down and couldn't get up? No clue otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Micah]

Umm, you're not trying to send it from a different email address than you sent your pretender from, are you? I think that might cause a problem, perhaps...other than that it's simply sending the 2h file in to turns@llamaserver.net (just reply to the mail you got the .trn file in and it should be all set). I dunno what else could be causing it.

[tromper]

jinx

[Micah]

And on top of it we're both from Portland.

[Folket]

I sent the turn again. I'm sure that I sent the 2h file this time.

[Folket]

Is there anyone else using hotmail here? Perhaps it is a problem with that service?

[Shovah32]

Sorry, im on hotmail. You sure your sending you .2h file to the llama turn server?

[Burnsaber]

I just did turn 2, so folket managed to get his turn in? I also use hotmail, haven't got any problems so far.

Did anyone else got hit by the scale bug? It's quite annoying. Especially when your misfortune inceases, but order doesn't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif.

[DrPraetorious]

Is that a bug?

I always thought it had something to do with patrolling and overtaxing your capital on turn 1.

[Burnsaber]

DrPraetorious said:
Is that a bug?

I always thought it had something to do with patrolling and overtaxing your capital on turn 1.



Didn't patrol, didn't overtax. So, no.

[tromper]

Oh - and Burnsaber - yeah, I too was hit by the 'dominion bug'. And again, it was with misfortune being cranked to 3. *shrug* Ergh. I don't see why fixing that darned weirdness isn't prioritized by the Illwinter guys as being needing immediate fixation in the next patch. Or the last patch. Are there ever any POSITIVE scale bugs? heh

[Thrawn]

Well, my production and magic scales were buffed two levels.

Not really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

I got the scales bug, staled a turn AND got a rather unlucky event in my capitol.
Not my lucky day.

[Thrawn]

Are we all good with the 48 hour timer?

[Micah]

I'm usually a big fan of a 24 hour host for the first dozen turns or so (with a slowdown if anyone's going to be gone for a day over a weekend or something and requests it) but some people seem to be having trouble keeping up with the 1/day schedule, so go ahead and slow it up if we have to.

[Folket]

I'm sorry for the stale. I thought I did play my turn yesterday =P.

I should have no problems with 24h.

[Thrawn]

Well, llamaserver does 48 hours by default, which is what it is now. Let's just keep it at that. If you guys need to pause play for going out of town, etc, just let me know. We all seem relatively accomodating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

I was having trouble keeping up(to my suprise) as the last few days have been hectic and my other current games were at a slower pace.

Ive recently been hit by a suprise holiday and will be heading to spain 24 hours from now, returning early on monday the 20th.
Sorry for any inconvenience.

edit: I will also need a slight time extension on the currnet turn due to packing.

[tromper]

Huh. Well perhaps it may be a good opportunity to start up a second version of this interesting team mechanic while Shovah32's off getting a tan, eh Thrawn? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Shovah32]

Remember, this turn(7) is that last that I will be able to complete before returning on Monday.

[llamabeast]

Um, the llamaserver does 24 hours by default, which is what this game is still on. Just so you know. It's easy to change though.

[Thrawn]

Oh, thought it was 48. Okay, Shovah, I'll pause the timer until Monday. Have a good trip.

Darn, was looking forward to lots of turns this weekend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thrawn]

Hosting postponed for Allegiances by 120 hours. The game will now host at 16:05 GMT on Tuesday August 21st.

[llamabeast]

Thrawn: Click on "Admin options" on the Allegiances page and you can see and change the current hosting schedule.

[Thrawn]

Yeah, I did. What I pasted up there is the result from changing it using the admin options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Yeah, sorry, I must have missed your post.

[Folket]

I fought we was going to play without score graphs.

[tromper]

So did I. *sigh*

[Thrawn]

Sorry, I meant for this to be no graphs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Shovah32]

OK guys, turn has hosted.

[Thrawn]

Yay!

[DrPraetorious]

Gah! I've had two invasions by knights and I absent mindedly sent one of my stacks of spiders the wrong frickin' way.

This has been one of my most frustrating starts to date.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif still, could be worse. I haven't taken any actual losses.

[Thrawn]

Turn 13...the forced peace is over! Nations may attack at will.

[tromper]

The Eastern Empire dictates that you crumble beneath the scintillating boots of our valorous warriors while becoming sit-com stars for the astral mage audience everywhere.

We also ask that you don't bring any Abysians or spiders, as they screw up the dance floor.

Our Theurgs have gotten hammered and wish to point out to the watery depths that if they have incursion on their minds, they'd best be prepared to drive the dead Velites home.

[Baalz]

Speak plain, boy. You plan on rumbling with the Knights of the West right out the gate? I reckon I got a 12 foot lance around here somewhere that'll about fit your back side if you insist.

[tromper]

Our scouts have recently discovered the Chalice in Penetheste's sigmoid. The Theurgs remain unsure as to veracity of this dire news. However, they do appreciate being called boys.

Don't use your lances on boys. That's illegal in Pythium.

[Micah]

All the geographical locations as team descriptions (western empire and such) mess with our head, cuz team Water is in the west on the real map, dammit.

The new methods of address that shall be used in the court of R'lyeh are team Water, team P, team Heat, and team Crossbow (formerly known as team You'll Have to Tell Us Why You Picked Ulm Over Ermor. But it was too lengthy, and team YHTUWYPUOE was unpronounceable by the messengers of the lesser races despite how well it flows off the...tongues of the worthy).

So let it be written!

[Baalz]

I figured the forge bonus would be twice as good in a team game. If either one of us can manage to find a construction magic site it could prove pretty ugly. Now all I have to do is stay away from the astral mages...there aren't any of those in this game, are there?

[Thrawn]

"Team Water"? That's the best you could do? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Micah]

It's short and descriptive, what more do you want?

Besides, I thought team We're Gonna Win was a bit much.

[llamabeast]

Hello guys, sorry about the score graphs issue, that was a cockup on my part. Apologies.

[Burnsaber]

llamabeast said:
Hello guys, sorry about the score graphs issue, that was a cockup on my part. Apologies.



Well, I didn't mind. It was cool to see myself in top of the "provinces" chart for a while.

[Thrawn]

Marignon has fallen, its armies decimated by the invading, heathenous minotaur hordes. Surely darkness and evil will consume the world, without the lantern of Marignon to guide people to the light...

Next team game, after this one, I am going to add a new rule which states it is illegal to eliminate the game host before turn 25. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

GL to the remaining players. I'll keep monitoring this forum, so post here if you need a suspension of the hosting, etc, and I will take care of it. Also, think of lessons learned from this game to make the next team game even better.

[Baalz]

Obviously my days are numbered at this point, but it will take a legendary pile of dead bodies to force the forges of Ulm to cool. Come all four of you, so hungry for blood. I sit my throne, sharpening my axe and wait to see who first will knock on my castle gate that the Ulmish kingdom ride to its fate headlong.

[Thrawn]

How is this game going? What's happening? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

Could we lengthen the host timer? My turns are getting complicated and I've been making mistakes (forgetting to pick up armies, forgetting to teleport in an astral mage when I faery trodded and then indeed I did get mindhunted albeit not by Pythium as I expected, etc. etc.)

[Folket]

I'm uncertain if I will be able to play my turns on Wednesday and Thursday. Could we turn off the turn timer and only play QH till I get back on Thurday night?

[Burnsaber]

I second DrPraetorius's suggestion. I think we should move straight to 48 hour timer. I'm getting my turns in fine, but I really don't have any life. Besides, this game takes time outside the game since you have to do diplomacy once in a while.

Thrawn, if you move the timer forward, I'll tell you what's happening. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Shovah32]

Burnsaber said:
I second DrPraetorius's suggestion. I think we should move straight to 48 hour timer. I'm getting my turns in fine, but I really don't have any life. Besides, this game takes time outside the game since you have to do diplomacy once in a while.




Pretty much sums up my position.

[tromper]

I vote for a 48 hour timer as well. I've staled twice during the game not being able to keep up with the staggering 'turn due times' and basically just throw out crappy moves when I'm pressured for time on some other days.

Thank god I'm one of the smaller nations, whew, though Folket sure isn't. *snicker*

[Folket]

I vote for puting it in 100h QH till I return.

[Micah]

Is anyone actually addressing the host timer? It's getting on to the host deadline (6 or 7 hours left) and, well, that's kind of the problem.

[Burnsaber]

Hmm. It seems that Trawn is preoccupied with something at this moment. I'm sure llamabeat could do something with his awesome radioactive-admin powers.

I send him a PM.

[llamabeast]

Awesome radioactive powers deployed!

Turn timer is now on 48 hours, and the current turn's been postponed by 24 hours so Folket won't stale.

Sorry I missed this guys, wasn't watching the thread. Maybe one of you would like to take over as admin since Thrawn got knocked out?

[Folket]

No problem. I had forgoten that our host is dead. I'm happy with anyone taking over the admin duty. I could do it myself if noone else wants.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm already adminsitering a game, and would be happy to administer this one.

I promise to use my admin access only for evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[llamabeast]

Brilliant, I'll send you the admin password Dr. P.

[Burnsaber]

I just thought of something, but I'd really like to ask first before rushing things.

Is it okay, in this game, to send your .trn to your ally in order for him to see some battles and information?

[DrPraetorious]

As the new administrator, I say yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Thrawn]

Sorry I flaked out guys, I had been checking, but went incognito. Glad you have it resolved.

What's happening in the game?

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, oops. Delayed the wrong game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

Well, as long as people send in their turns on time it'll still autohost.

[jutetrea]

So how has the team thing been working? Are you getting down to the nitty gritty and sending each planned turn to your ally? At the beginning did you plan out pretenders/summons/research paths and if so, did they work out?

How often do you find yourselves in a support/offensive mode? In other words are you fighting separately, together or is one fighting and the other supporting? If this was more frequent I could actually see it being interesting (at least in the short term) being the supplier, buffered by the offensive player and then churning out SCs/teleport groups/rituals from the back.

Do you guys like the 2v2v2v2 setup? Would it work with 3's? Would a 3v3 work?

Curious minds want to know!

[Burnsaber]

To Thrawn: The Empires of Ulm and Marignon has been gnawed to mere skeletons. Abyssia casted the Forge of the Ancients folowed by R'lyehs Well of Misery and Machaka's Eternal Pyre &amp; Gift of Health. Ulm only has one meek fort left and it's sieged. Panganea/Pythium and Machaka/Abyssia are exchanging some weak blows against one other, but recently R'lyeh busted out of the gates with elemental royalty and artifacts, attacking Machakas back. things are looking grim for Abyssia/Machaka, but we'll won't fall without a fight.

To Jutetrea; I'm really enjoying this game and yes, there can be definitive support/attack roles. I'm a supporter, myself. When I tried to wage war I almost got my *** handed to my Baalz's Ulm, to be honest. Destruction is nice against Abyssia. Luckily Dr.P was kind enough to kick Ulm's *** for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif. 2v2v2v2 is nice, but I think there should be more teams to allow for more diplomacy. The early game played a bit too much like a 4 player blitz to my liking. Wraparound map would also be good, I'm currently stuck in a corner and it's really limiting my options http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. One thing to remember about these team games is that you should have more time to your turns than normally since you need to contact yuor ally once in a while. Luckily I ogt my IrC access working, communicating by PM's or E-mails wouldn't have been enough.

It's a bit early to say this, but I think that these "team games" are a succesfull experiment. More should be created.

[Baalz]

Yeah, I really like the team coordination, FWIW team Ulm/Marignon was going straight for FotA and angels respectively...and we were pretty close to it in the second year. I had well over a hundred earth gems and con-5 before the hostilities started, I was going to cast FotA with about 200 earth gems about halfway through the second year, crap out 50 lightless lanterns (only 1 fire gem apiece with Ulm smiths under the forge) which would have gone straight to the angel factory in Marignon while I started cranking out cheap angel gear (continuing straight to con-8). We both had rainbow pretenders and planned to alchemize whatever we could to keep them angles flowing while I cranked out full sets of fire brand, marble armor, shields of beaten gold, etc. every turn. Would have been great, fielding a steady stream of SCs before we even hit year three...except we ended up being the "***** in the middle" of the other two land teams. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And that, to answer a previous question, is why I picked Ulm.

I think it'd be great with more teams so it's less of a 4X4 blitz, there's lots of great possibilities for two nation teams. As it was there really wasn't an option for any of the land teams as far as who to attack unless they wanted to attack team water in the second year...

[Thrawn]

I'm glad everyone is liking the experiment. And, it seems like we've figured out a lot of stuff to fix/add for the next game. I had some ideas for a more fair map arrangement, but, I think the consensus idea of simply having more teams might solve the problem on its own. Like Baalz said, more teams = more options of who to attack, so no one team gets stuck being the obvious first attack target. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hurry up and win, so we can start the second game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Burnsaber]

Thrawn said:
Hurry up and win, so we can start the second game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Why don't you just go ahead and start recruting for another one? It's not like Perpetuality is over and Evermore is just around the corner.

I'm sure you can get players for at least 5 teams. This game seems to have sparked intrest.

[Thrawn]

But, I want you guys to play too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I'll start a placeholder for it, at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Folket]

I'm in only three games at the moment so I could join.

[tromper]

You know I'm up for it, Thrawn, so save me a spot.

And, off topic of course, you guys need to post some updates regarding Utterdark. Assuming it's still ongoing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, I propose the following teams for EA, based on a desire to inflict some kind of game balance, without completely destroying any thematic basis.

TEAM - HAZY SHADE OF WINTER - Niefelheim + Ulm
TEAM - OM MANI PADMA, MOTHERF****R - Kailasa + T'ien Ch'i
TEAM - TOGA! TOGA! TOGA! - Pangaea OR Oceania + Arcoscephale
TEAM - PYRAMID POWER - Mictlan + C'tis OR Atlantis
TEAM - DAWN OF EMPIRE - Sauromatia + Ermor
TEAM - ARE WE ON FIRE YET? - Abysia + Yomi
TEAM - GIBBERING ALL THE WAY - Agartha + R'lyeh OR Caelum
TEAM - DRUIDS ARE TOTALLY VIKINGS, RIGHT? - Helheim + Marverni
TEAM - DRUID = VIKING, EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW - Tir na n'Og + Vanheim

[Shovah32]

I would be interested too.

[Thrawn]

Great. I will start the new thread and begin recruiting. And post here.

Dr. P, would you be interested in providing us another excellent map?

(nice team names, BTW)

[Thrawn]

The game post is UP!

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=552442&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=#Post552442

Can't wait for even bigger team action!

[Folket]

I have been sending my host file three times now and the server are not responding. I hope Dr'Preatorius sees this and postpones the game before the host in four hours.

[Micah]

I didn't realize the quickhost had moved the time up so much either, so I'd be quite happy to have a few extra hours to get my turn in, server issues or no...

[DrPraetorious]

Delayed autohost by 24 hrs, I think - just in the nick of time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[DrPraetorious]

Gah! Just barely too late and I staled http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

Well, there wasn't much I could do anyway.

[Micah]

Hey, I'm out of town and was hoping for a host delay, I worked like 14 hours today refereeing, so if things could be held up a tad that'd be awesome. Thanks

[Folket]

I would like for this game to be paused til the host is upgraded to version 3.10.

[Burnsaber]

I'll be gone for the weekend (from 12th day to 15th). Any chance to delay the hosting while I'm gone?

[Folket]

Activity in this game is at a all time low. I suggest a complete surrender to The Briny Deeps.

[Shovah32]

I second that motion.

[Micah]

Cool, well played Folket, you put up a damn good fight, but I think the outcome of the raiding is inevitable at this point, so ending here sounds like a good idea, I assume tromper is on board with the plan?

[Folket]

TRomper suggested a surrender several turns ago and I have notice a clear decline in his activity.

[Burnsaber]

I'm also ready to surrender. All hail our new tentacled overlords!

[DrPraetorious]

Congrats, Micah. Well played.

[tromper]

Yeop, congrats Micah/Shovah32!

I'm going to be taking a break from Dominions of course, but if there's one thing I've learned the past few months in various games, it's that gem income is primary. Don't have that, and you're toast by midgame. Them's the breaks. Fascinating and skillful SC usage, too. R'lyeh especially has been cleaning up in many recent games that I've looked in on.

Starspawn THIS. *grunt*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Micah]

Gibber, burble, gibber, gibber.

=)