Do provinces grow in pop without Growth Domain?

[IndyPendant]

Hi all.

I did some experimenting the other day, and thought I would doublecheck my results. I created a game with Man and no Growth scales, and my capital and the one province I conquered never grew in population, at all, for the 15 or so turns I went through.

Then I created Man with Growth-3, and the capital grew at exactly (and no more than) the 0.6% per turn the Growth scale gave, while the conquered province grew slightly out of proportion in percentage (it looks like there's a minimum pop growth--in a Growth-Scale province--of 10 people per turn).

Is that correct? For any growth at all to happen, do you need Growth scales?

Also, is this detailed in Teh Buk anywhere?

--Thanks.

[DrPraetorious]

You can get occasional population changes from random events, but yes, otherwise, only growth causes population to go up.

The 10 point minimum is not surprising; I don't think it keeps track of values below 10.

[Juzza]

I personaly don't like this, I think that provinces should increase by a small amount each turn, weather it be 0.05 percent or more or less, it should happen even without 1 growth and having 1 death rather than killing the population, simply stopping the gain, I mean, there are more than enough, spells and random events to decrease population and it seems kinda silly to me, that if your dominion has no growth that over years, the population may stay exactly the same.

[Theonlystd]

always annoyed me to..

Esp since patrolling ,events, can have an effect on population esp during a long game..

[Acenoid]

Hi there!

First posting after a long time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don't have the game yet but skimming through the forums already because I have ordered it.

However this sounds really strange because as I understand it -3 is worst 0 is average and +3 is a bonus (or in case of heat not necessarily due to obvious reasons).

Now this looks like a bug to me and not like a "feature". Otherwise anyone has an explanation for this behavior?

Regards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[thejeff]

0 is the neutral state. No growth no death.

When you buy growth your population grows.
When you take death your population dies.

It's really very simple.

The devs have stated it's intentional that it's far easier in general to lose population than gain it.
The game takes place over a period of a few years, hardly time for a population boom to grow up.
And it's the endtimes. An apocalyptic religious war. People get killed. Lots of them.
Once a pretender wins, then populations can grow again, assuming thats what the new pantokrator wants...

[Acenoid]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Good explanation... Growth -1 = Death +1 I would never take those negative scales http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I love humans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But how do you explain the OP test result that his population grew by 0.6 percent each turn with growth -3

[thejeff]

I think thats intended to be Growth dash 3 not Growth minus 3.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Yeah, thejeff has it. Growth(dash)3.

It was just one of those Fundamental Laws (tm) of TBS games: Countries/Provinces/Cities/whatever Discreet Geographical Units a game has grows in pop over time. I was having trouble believing Dom3 didn't, so I searched the forums and came up empty, then checked for myself.

Nothing wrong with no growth, I guess; just somewhat counterintuitive. : )

[Kristoffer O]

Pop do grow at growth/death =0 at a monthly rate slightly higher than the normal nativity of country of today IIRC. At least thet was what we aimed for when we decided on growth. I'm not sure how and if this was changed from dom-ppp to dom2 (dom2 and dom3 being more clear that a turn is a month and not a season).

Since a turn in Dominions is a month it was percieved as counterintuitive to have thousands of newborn to suddenly be able to work and produce tax revenues even if there was lots of fornication in the huts. Thus population grows slowly compared with other computer games, but with a benevolent God, population growth is quite high in regards to human nativity.

[Arralen]

Not that I'm against "basic growth" roughly equal to 1 scale worth of growth - actually, I'm advocating that since the very first days of Dom2 ..

.. but Kristoffer, sometimes I really wonder who is making the Dominion games:
there's no "null-growth" in Dominions now, and there never was any.

Just did a quick test run - after 20 turns of "growth 0" in several home provinces the populations change was exactly zero.

If this isn't working as designed, yes, please give us base growth at last !

[Kristoffer O]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Are you sure? No growth: hard to imagine wouldn't you say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[thejeff]

I haven't tested it, but that's been the conventional wisdom since Dom2 at least.

I was surprised to see your post saying otherwise.

(I guess our Pantokrator has growth scales.)

[Meglobob]

I would like to see a little natural growth in population. The more dire the situation the more human beings reproduce, survival instinct I guess. You can't get more dire than the Ascension wars... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kristoffer O]

But babies don't make war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Juzza]

but we're probably talking about 1-10 people a month her not, the, hundred newborns this month

[DrPraetorious]

Well, I've always assumed that the population of a province measures only the able bodied working adults. So even though babies don't pay taxes (and can't go to war, although that would be adorable), a certain percentage of the existing children in a province will reach the arbitrary adulthood cutoff (wherever it may be) each month.

Typical world population growth rates in the modern era are around 0.1% per month, so that has to be an *upper* bound on the growth rate in "normal" provinces.

So a default rate of 0.05% wouldn't be unreasonable, but it's also so small (1/4 of the growth from 1 pip of Growth scale), that it wouldn't make any difference.

[johan osterman]

It used to be that pop growth was .1% per turn. With a .2% change per additional growth scale. Just as KO I have no recollection of this being changed, but perhaps it was between dom 1 and dom2 when turns were officially said to be one month.

[Arralen]

0.1% per turn would result in 30.000 growing to 30.605 in 20 turns.
But this does not happen - either it's removed completely (and I vaguely remember both of you, Kristoffer and Johan, stating that there's no base growth in Dom2, or 3,.. I think it's on the wish-list, even), or the per-turn growth is rounded away somehow in error.

Would be great to have some "base growth", either as a game (command line) option or moddable - maybe depending on the growth scale setting and therefore not requiring a seperate mod command?!

PS: I'll try to dig out DomPPP this weekend and run a test ... I really can't remember if there was any "base growth" at work back then ..

[Chacal]

Hmm, IMO Dominions era isn't really comparable to today. It's like Europa in year 1000 for certain nations, far before for EA nations. It wasn't really time of population growth, at least not for a seasonal scale.

Or maybe consider that our earth is on a Growth 1 scale http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif