Soo... When is the next patch?

[Atreidi]

I cant wait to see a new patch for this game. The AI needs a some twitching, we need a few more #commands on the mods, a couple of maps, two or three more razes, some fixes on the UI, and im sure there is more. Im sure im not asking too much. The game is already great but some patching would really help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Any one has any info on the upcoming patch?

[Zylithan]

There's a thread about this here:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=537071&page=0& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all

Short version - you can see sort of what will be included using a link on that page, and the patch will be out *soon* whatever that means, I think is fair to say.

[Edi]

Atreidi said:
I cant wait to see a new patch for this game. The AI needs a some twitching, we need a few more #commands on the mods, a couple of maps, two or three more razes, some fixes on the UI, and im sure there is more. Im sure im not asking too much. The game is already great but some patching would really help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Any one has any info on the upcoming patch?


For info, see the link in the previous post.

As for asking too much, I personally think it rather arrogant and in bad taste to make one's first post on a forum into basically a demand for
AI improvements (very hard to do even at the best of times, but especially since no mention of what should be improved and how)
2-3 more races (each one requires a fair bit of work)
UI changes (which in any bigger measure will be tedious, mind-numbing and work intensive)
1-2 maps (assload of work on each map even if the map doesn't contain specials)
bug fixes (reasonable request, as long as you don't expect that all will be fixed all at once)
extra mod commands (desirable, but not critical)
an unspecified demand for more stuff
No, not being too demanding at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Just to put things into perpective, for most games this kind of thing would be an expansion pack with a price tag of $40 or $50. I know I should not be too harsh on new people, but get a goddamn grip and THINK before you blurt things out. Do you have any idea of just how offensive that kind of a ridiculous list of demands is when presented in a way that makes it seem as if you feel having all of those demands filled is nothing less than your due. It's guaranteed to piss people off no end.

Just to set things straight, I do NOT have anything against you personally and I'm glad to see we have new members signing up. I do wish that people did not take as much for granted as they do and paid some attention as to how what they post comes across.

[Kristoffer O]

> I personally think it rather arrogant and in bad taste to make one's first post

Hi Edi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I personally think it is rather arogant and in bad taste to make one's first answer to a first time writer on a forum a lecturing. Sorry couldn't resist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It is not surprising if a new player says what's on his mind the first time he writes. I assume he will play some more, read posts and reevaluate his opinions or express them in a way not offensive to players who have explained to dozens or hundreds of players how we work and what we are able to do.

So while I thank you for taking our part, I think you could have made your answer a bit nicer. On the other hand, now I will appear as uber-nice in a bad-cop/good-cop fashion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont want to slam anyones creative requests but maybe redirect them abit. In light of the fact that its already been mentioned that
A) the devs work on what is fun for them mostly
B) Dom4 is unlikely
C) there is another project in the works

So a good number of the requests could be aimed toward the community support (maps, mods, servers) which can do quite abit in those areas.

edit: heehee, didnt slip my water-down post in before Kristoffer

[Sombre]

Good cop bad cop eh? I'll be somewhere in the middle. That post did seem a bit rude considering it was his first. Saying that 'we' or 'the game' /needs/ a list of such things and that they aren't too much to ask for isn't right.

On the other hand the fact that you said you can't wait to get a new patch is a compliment to the game and the work by the devs. I'm with you there - I'm really looking forward to the patch too (mostly for the couple of mod commands oh and BOG BEASTS).

Actually, rude as it may be, I DEMAND boggier beasts. That or beastier bogs.

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, what about a Bogmonstra, mother of all bogs, queen of the green, bringer of bile.

[Sombre]

Sounds boggy, so I give it my poison spit of approval.

[Gandalf Parker]

How about "the Boggie Monster" which wanders around and frightens soldiers in their sleep?

[Edi]

Kristoffer O said:
> I personally think it rather arrogant and in bad taste to make one's first post

Hi Edi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I personally think it is rather arogant and in bad taste to make one's first answer to a first time writer on a forum a lecturing. Sorry couldn't resist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


HEY! I am supposed to be the fearsome, fiery dragon! How come MY tail feels like it just got burned?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Kristoffer O said:
So while I thank you for taking our part, I think you could have made your answer a bit nicer. On the other hand, now I will appear as uber-nice in a bad-cop/good-cop fashion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


I suppose I was a bit sharp with him. Probably something to do with the fact that aside from one (1) single person, all of the customers who I've had to deal with at work today have been absolute, blithering morons. Tends to make me waspish.

[Chacal]

Fear the mighty Bogzilla !

[Kristoffer O]

> Probably something to do with the fact that aside from one (1) single person, all of the customers who I've had to deal with at work today have been absolute, blithering morons.

You should work as a teacher. There are no blithering morons at school http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atreidi]

Hi All

I regards to the comment by Edi I have to say this: I am not trying to be arrogant in any way. I was just listing my opinion on what the game needs to make it a Legendary game. As I said before:

This game is already great but some patching would really help.

As to not being specific with my "requests." I was not really requesting anything I'm just giving my opinion on what i believe the game "needs". And dont get me wrong the game works great the way it is in its current form but I think this game can be a legendary.

(Changing the subject a little)

This game has so much content and Lore and so much depth its awesome. I discovered the game a few days ago and I havent been able to stop playing it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Cant wait to start MP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Humakty]

Having read this thread, I understand that, because it's not my first post, I can ask everything I have in mind, so :
3D graphics ( but running smoothly on MY PC)
Awesome nations (no idea, but wanna them to be awesome)
Me winning even if whatsoever...
I also want a 200 % decrease in cost ( pay me for buying..)

Have all a nice day !

[llamabeast]

*Unleashes the hounds to chase and eat Humakty*

[Humakty]

No ! Noooo ! AARGHH ! (ears the noise of jaws gnawing into flesh)

[Aezeal]

hey... why no Dom 4 anyway?

[Hadrian_II]

Aezeal said:
hey... why no Dom 4 anyway?



As i understand it lots of the code in dom3 is still from dom1 and now stretched to the max. A dom4 would need a major recode of everything, and the devs said that they rather do something new than another dominions.

[Aezeal]

Ow well a strategy game will be fine.. fantasy themed even better.. the same world and races are not neccesary or they could hire a serf to do the nasty stuff for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Kristoffer O]

> I also want a 200 % decrease in cost ( pay me for buying..)

We were considering this, but figured it would knock out all other computer games, and that would be bad for the computer industry as a whole.

[Valandil]

Actually, it might set a pleasent trend...

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmmm as nice as that sounds, the newsgroups for discussing strategy games has gone from hundreds of posts a day to a couple of dozen posts over the last year. There just doesnt seem to be much to discuss after we all figured out that we were playing games that were a few years old.

Somehow I dont see the pleasant trend getting us more games.

[Lingchih]

Yeah, it's depressing. The trend for strategy seems to be going all towards Real Time Strategy, with not much turn based strategy being created. Which sucks, cause I'm old, and I can't keep up with the RTS games.

There's Civ, and GalCiv, and Dominions, and a handful of less popular historical games. Ahh well... at least there is still a good group of players for Dominions.

[NTJedi]

Gandalf Parker said:
Hmmm as nice as that sounds, the newsgroups for discussing strategy games has gone from hundreds of posts a day to a couple of dozen posts over the last year. There just doesnt seem to be much to discuss after we all figured out that we were playing games that were a few years old.

Somehow I dont see the pleasant trend getting us more games.



Stardock the creators of Galactic Civilizations are developing a Fantasy TBS game for SP and MP. They wanted to create the sequel for MastersofMagic yet Atari didn't want to sell the name. I believe its estimated release is the end of next year.

[Humakty]

What really killed the creation of new 4X games (and more classical strategy games) is the passion editors seem to have with 3D. You end up with games offering you very small maps, and most of the time repetitive strategies.

What also is strange is the tendency to publish all games on the same period at the same time.(I can't play any WW2 games anymore, got totally disgusted...)( they did the same with greek mythology)(all that to say that, when they've got an idea(WHAW!!!), they use it to produce 10 to 20+ games on a period of 2+ years).

3D doesn't favorise mods either.(and creating mod friendly games isn't the trend anymore).

If anyone here is working in the marvellous game edition domain, I wanna say (as usual) I'm so sorry...

[Chacal]

Well, it's logical computer (un)evolution.
Now you can have very nice graphics with cool 3D effects that are catching eyes of potentiale buyers. In the past, the relativly poor graphs were a good pretext to offer deep strategy games. Unfortunatly for us, like all industry, the game industry focus on what sells better. So only few editors take a risk to publish strategy games. And even them put more time and bucks on graphs that on deep of scenario or quality.

So we have to count on fantastic teams like Illwinter that will coninue to do games we like.

Personnaly I prefer amator games with relativly simple graphics like Dominions 3 that we can easly custm that projects where you have to be almost a 3d designer with thousand dollars software needed to edit a simple unit.

[Meglobob]

I have to say the last year has been dire for strategy games.

Fortunately, I have had Dom 3 to play during that time.

Other than GC2, Dom3 and Civ4 expansions what else has there been?

Can anyone name any good strategy games released in the last year that I may have missed due to my immersion in Dom 3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[sum1lost]

Meglobob said:
I have to say the last year has been dire for strategy games.

Fortunately, I have had Dom 3 to play during that time.

Other than GC2, Dom3 and Civ4 expansions what else has there been?

Can anyone name any good strategy games released in the last year that I may have missed due to my immersion in Dom 3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Slitherine produces historical 4X games which are supposed to be pretty good, but the only game of theirs I bought was a very odd RTS hybrid.

[HolyFire]

Meglobob said:
Can anyone name any good strategy games released in the last year that I may have missed due to my immersion in Dom 3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Does SE5 count?

[Szumo]

SE5 does not count. Big disappointment over SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[HolyFire]

Szumo said:
SE5 does not count. Big disappointment over SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



Are you saying this because of the numerous bugs at the original release (most of which have by now been fixed), or for other reasons?

[Tiavals]

It's essentially the same game with different graphics. More like a patch than a new game. It didn't add any new content. It feels wrong to call it a new game.

[Theonlystd]

Meglobob said:
I have to say the last year has been dire for strategy games.

Fortunately, I have had Dom 3 to play during that time.

Other than GC2, Dom3 and Civ4 expansions what else has there been?

Can anyone name any good strategy games released in the last year that I may have missed due to my immersion in Dom 3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif




Well Sword of the Stars .. Even with its expansion its still pretty simple economic and colony wise .. But hopefully its the start of more turn based strategy games making use of pretty graphics and such in that way ..

[Gandalf Parker]

HolyFire said:

Szumo said:
SE5 does not count. Big disappointment over SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



Are you saying this because of the numerous bugs at the original release (most of which have by now been fixed), or for other reasons?


I thought it was a great example of the 3D comment. It stepped up the graphics to the point that it did not receive the community modding support that SEIV had. And mods was what made SEIV worthwhile.

[Szumo]

Bugs - and i'd say some of them are still not fixed. But mainly because it's a big stepback comparing to SE4 in terms of required micromanagement and user interface useability, without anything really improved over it.

[Salamander8]

I loved SE4, especially with all the mods for it. SE5 feels like a step backward to me. I don't hate it, but it didn't grab me like SE4, Dom2, and Dom3 did.

I too lament the decline in turn-based games (I'm an old fart too). And while I do play some RTS games, I don't feel they are all that strategic.

[NTJedi]

Humakty said:
What really killed the creation of new 4X games (and more classical strategy games) is the passion editors seem to have with 3D. You end up with games offering you very small maps, and most of the time repetitive strategies.

...

3D doesn't favorise mods either.(and creating mod friendly games isn't the trend anymore).





I completely agree... so many developers and publishing companies are lured into believing gamers care more about pretty graphics than game quality and game content.
This has hurt even the RTS games such as Warcraft_3 with the 96X96 size map limitation. It's frustrating to see so much effort being forced into better graphics which results in small maps, less game options, and a less satisfying overall product.
It's like discovering your favorite vehicle has a new model available, yet when you look under the hood it has worse performance, uses more gas, less safety, fewer options, etc; , and all just for better appearance. The worst part is this has been continuing in the gaming industry for 5 years now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
We're stuck waiting for the game companies to return with building quality instead of focusing on appearance.

[Nikolai]

> yet when you look under the hood it has worse performance, uses more gas, less safety, fewer options, etc; , and all just for better appearance.

But opposite also sucks. The new M3 is tons better than mine, but looks like ***. I want the machine (to kick a certain monster S60R) but I do not want "stepped on" apprearance.

[Frostmourne27]

NTJedi said:

I completely agree... so many developers and publishing companies are lured into believing gamers care more about pretty graphics than game quality and game content.
This has hurt even the RTS games such as Warcraft_3 with the 96X96 size map limitation. It's frustrating to see so much effort being forced into better graphics which results in small maps, less game options, and a less satisfying overall product.
It's like discovering your favorite vehicle has a new model available, yet when you look under the hood it has worse performance, uses more gas, less safety, fewer options, etc; , and all just for better appearance. The worst part is this has been continuing in the gaming industry for 5 years now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
We're stuck waiting for the game companies to return with building quality instead of focusing on appearance.



Warcraft three is actually pretty mod firendly, if you work around quite a bit. Things like map size limits are bypassable, with difficulty. See maps like EotA, which, reportadly, nearly crashes the creator's copy of the editor with its size and complexity. Not that War3 couldn't be better, but Blizzard does a better job that most mainstream game studios, up until WoW at least. MMORPGs don't even deserve the game title, let alone role-playing

[Valandil]

Or, in some cases, the MM (see: Guild Wars.)

[Fate]

Rolling back this conversation a bit:

Gandalf Parker said:
C) there is another project in the works



Does Gandalf know something we don't? IS SOMETHING NEW PLANNED!?

I will only approve if Bogus is somehow involved...

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually Kristoffer dropped it abit back but many people missed it.

I like the comment about Bogus though. Apparently you know something of the history of Bogus pre-Dominions.

[Theonlystd]

Gandalf Parker said:
Actually Kristoffer dropped it abit back but many people missed it.

I like the comment about Bogus though. Apparently you know something of the history of Bogus pre-Dominions.

oooooooo i want details details !!!

[Humakty]

I want details too, anything comming from illwinter team cannot be missed!!
I blatantly agree on MMORPG, who are RPG because you have a character with stats (original !) and who sometimes even fail to be MM, like valandil said. ( so elves can sometimes be right, Ooo, strange idea..)
I call for a big protest walk on Big Profit Inc.(with ropes n' guns)(n' axes)(n' small sharp pieces of metal..)

[Kristoffer O]

MM? What does MM mean.

Are you complaining about Guild Wars Valandil? GW was a very good game, at least from a PvP perspective. I've spent 1-2k hours on it. Mostly in team arenas with JK, my brother and a finn of half my age http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Most bang for the buck I've ever had game-wise. I've probably played more GW than I have played dominions.

[Kristoffer O]

Fate said:
Rolling back this conversation a bit:

Gandalf Parker said:
C) there is another project in the works



Does Gandalf know something we don't? IS SOMETHING NEW PLANNED!?

I will only approve if Bogus is somehow involved...



Then we'd better involve him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Humakty]

Massively Multiplayer

[Kristoffer O]

Ah. That simple.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
Ah. That simple.



Let's not forget the random map generator and the game editor. These greatly add to the replay value.

Artificial Intelligence
For best AI results I recommend multiple personalities with a scriptable AI thus new personalities can be added to the random selection or existing ones improved within the community. Any AI personality script should have the option of being disabled in case it's bugged.

Random Item Formula
Also besides adding your favorite fixed items I'd suggest creating a Random Item Formula = Allows items within the game to be more unique and thus increases replay value.
Examples = Variables A, B and C are randomly selected from separate lists.
Kings(A) Poisonous(B) Axe(item) of Death(C)
Ice(B) Knife(item)
Dukes(A) Helm(item) of Minds(C)
Fire(B) Boots(item) of Speed(C)

Using a random item formula means each new game will have new unique items!
Forging items can also be incorporated where an average axe and old skull will allow a necromancer to forge a death axe.

[Ewierl]

NTJedi said:
Random Item Formula



Personally, I'll put in an opposing vote for "not Diablo."

[Kristoffer O]

I'm inclined to avoid random pick-this-and-that items. They are in my opinion rather (insert stronger wording if you wish - I don't mind) boring.

It is not that difficult to come up with hundreds of items without having to resort to genericisms (is that a word?). Better to add one hundred new items and randomly disable 80% of them each game if you want replayability.

[silhouette]

Yay for getting new machine(s) for patch building. Did I get lucky and is there a chance you will build a Linux PPC patch this time also, or is that arch stuck with the 2.06 version forever?

Sill

[Atreidi]

Gandalf Parker said:
I dont want to slam anyones creative requests but maybe redirect them abit. In light of the fact that its already been mentioned that
A) the devs work on what is fun for them mostly
B) Dom4 is unlikely
C) there is another project in the works

So a good number of the requests could be aimed toward the community support (maps, mods, servers) which can do quite abit in those areas.



Soo... I questions are..
1. What are some examples fun stuff for the devs?
2. Is this the end of Dominions? No expansion or Big-Update?
3. Does that mean that there will be no more "serius" work on Dominion 3?

If this is already posted in another thread please link http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wikd Thots]

It just means that we cannot wave the usual work motevators at them like money or more sales or more reconition.

The Kris guy likes to do the pictures and make up new nations. Unless the new project gets him involved in that then I guess we will continue to see it in patches

The John guy looks like the progress history page is full of little things like fixing something or adding mod commands so that the players can do it. Nothing that makes him completely recode big parts of the game.

[Kristoffer O]

> 1. What are some examples fun stuff for the devs?

Gnomes tasting like candy, or possibly gnome candy.
Children of Bodom britney cover.
Ftaghn! And everything that comes with it.
Also zombies! The more the better. Brains might taste like candy as well. Gnome Candy.

> 2. Is this the end of Dominions? No expansion or Big-Update?

There never was an expansion or big update previously. Just small patches and new games.

> 3. Does that mean that there will be no more "serius" work on Dominion 3?

The work on dominions 3 was mostly unserious, so no big change here.

[Humakty]

I'll make miself the voice of the few :
We want poneys and girafs.

Seriously, if you would stop patching this game in the instant, I wouldn' call it a scandal. (I would rent a Yakuza killer)MTW 2 was almost unplayable when it was published, and still has huge flaws, mostly a sucidal AI.
Some things implemented in MTW2 still do serve to nothing( have you tried to rentabilize merchants lately ?)
I think the comparison between the two games shows us which team works harder.(dom 3 one, for dumbers)
People who say dom3 AI is rubish haven't played to other games lately.
Dom 3 isn't perfect, but apart from me, nobody is.
I could set up an endless list of qualities dom 3 has.

PS :I'm a total geek with no social life, I've been playing this game for 6 months, and I still discover new stuff !!!

PPS : after such a compliment, I'm waiting for patches, big updates,gnome candy AND a nice hotess...and zombies

PPPs : FTAGHN

[Atreidi]

Kristoffer O said:
> 1. What are some examples fun stuff for the devs?

Gnomes tasting like candy, or possibly gnome candy.
Children of Bodom britney cover.
Ftaghn! And everything that comes with it.
Also zombies! The more the better. Brains might taste like candy as well. Gnome Candy.

> 2. Is this the end of Dominions? No expansion or Big-Update?

There never was an expansion or big update previously. Just small patches and new games.

> 3. Does that mean that there will be no more "serius" work on Dominion 3?

The work on dominions 3 was mostly unserious, so no big change here.



... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/firedevil.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Now my new question is.....

(Question to the devs) (But you can stil answer if you think you know the answer)

What have you learned from this game? And how will you implement all the positive feedback received from this game into something better or something in a greater scale?

Will this game evolve into something that appeals more to the "average gamer" or will it get even deeper in the sense of having an even richer strategical game play?

What worries me is that such a good game, such great, deep and interesting Lore and strategy system be forgotten or left un-polished. As I've said before in my second post in this forum this game could be the UTIMATE game if polished correctly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Diablo? Never was a big fan of it. It strikes at my biggest weakness- indecisiveness. There obviously was a big audience for it- but two games I preferred in the genre were Nox and Sacred, Heretic (aka Kult), Divine Divinity (there were other games I preferred even more, such as Arx Fatalis, Ultima VI, etc, but they weren't exactly the same genre).

First off, Sacred vs. Diablo
Stat growth was partially fixed, with one free point to spend each level, the rest of the gains preassigned. Diablo, you'd have 5 points to assign each time, and there was no going back. With Sacred, I could customize for a high agility or strength or charisma character but I did not have to worry about picking the wrong stats and ending up with a completely unviable character. As well, unlike D2, I could save. While there were random drops, the maps were not random - I liked that.

Nox had an interesting spell system (really) that wasn't dependent on irreversibly, uncertain skill picks. As well, it was rather linear (but I liked that) maps were not random, enemies were not, and there were lots of little secrets. They made the world into a character all of its own, one I was curious about. Diablo players would say that decrease the fun of replays (though there was mp deathmatch mode), but I say it made a single player game worth playing on its own merits - practically every Diablo review overemphasizes the multiplayer component. It is good for its audience, but with blizzard I just feel a bit lonely in the SP world. It was interesting enough that I actually played each characters campaign twice, and would still be playing it if I hadn't lost the serial.

As a side note (I'm looking at you Nox, Diablo) there's nothing romantic about smashing barrels. Save the world, kill monsters, fulfill quests, and smash barrels. What is up with that?

[Humakty]

I want alpha centauri 2 !!
A side question : does anyone succeeded in making AC 1 run under XP ?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Kristoffer O said:
> 1. What are some examples fun stuff for the devs?
Ftaghn! And everything that comes with it.
Also zombies! The more the better. Brains might taste like candy as well. Gnome Candy.



There's been a few lighthearted zombie games where you play the undead, and a lot of serious zombie games where you shoot the undead.

But how's bout X-Com: Zombies?

A tactical turn based game where you can play the zombies or cthulu cultists, not just the good guys. There'd be a were-faction (beware were-chickens!) and a vampire faction.

Vampires... hmm... you'd start out with maybe a single vampire, than get enough to form an underground lair. Maybe open up a goth nightclub or two in the beginning, to get some 'income'. Or if you're not so evil, infiltrate the red cross. Later, when you start taking over the world, you'll have to keep captive humans for a ready supply of food.

Heck, maybe something like Dungeon Keeper...

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
I'm inclined to avoid random pick-this-and-that items. They are in my opinion rather (insert stronger wording if you wish - I don't mind) boring.

It is not that difficult to come up with hundreds of items without having to resort to genericisms (is that a word?). Better to add one hundred new items and randomly disable 80% of them each game if you want replayability.



I actually find games with only fixed items more limited. For example using my example formula above will allow the game to provide over 20,000 items or more and can be accomplished more easily than creating 400 fixed items. I believe having both the randomly generated items and the fixed items provides the best of both worlds.
Personally I enjoy games where each time I play I know characteristics of the game will be unique. Unique new quests, unique new maps, unique new AI behaviors, unique new items, optional victory settings, unique new places/buildings, unique new monsters, etc; .
When you take those features above and set them as fixed quests, fixed map(s), fixed AI behaviors, fixed places/buildings then the games replay value decreases the same as providing each gamer with unique experiences.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Take a look at the Exiles/Avernum series by spiderweb software. They manage to provide quite a lot of replay value without random items or maps. The game world can actually change if you take too long to get something done, for instance, so you can take things in different directons.

There are cases for both situations, and both types of players. But personally, I find games with random items less immersing and decrease the original play value (and hence the replay value) considerably. If they're partially random, like as in Sacred or Divine Divinity, I can live with it. But if they're near completely random, as in Diablo 2, they never manage to hook me.

On the other foot, there's the whole niche of Roguelike games, but I won't get into that right now. I don't have that much to say.

[Sombre]

I rather liked the magic item creation in master of magic, which was of course a pick and choose approach.

[K]

Humakty said:
I want alpha centauri 2 !!
A side question : does anyone succeeded in making AC 1 run under XP ?



There is a file on the Firaxis website that makes it work.

Check the first download. (http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=7&showcon=2)

[Saarud]

Well I agree that totally random items is abit less immersing. It would be nice if mages/crafters could craft their own creations as well as those already in the game. The items could be designed kinda like spaceships are designed in SE4 where the crafter makes the decision what stats/abilities to add to that item. The more skilled the crafter is the more points to use and the more gems/money that are used even more points to use for crafting the weapon. Or something like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arralen]

K said:

Humakty said:
I want alpha centauri 2 !!
A side question : does anyone succeeded in making AC 1 run under XP ?


There is a file on the Firaxis website that makes it work.
Check the first download. (http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=7&showcon=2)



I have run it successfully without that patch - that patch makes it impossible to play MP against anyone not using it.
'Twas something about "ForceOldVoxelAlgho" or something in some ini file, and tinkering with desktop settings IIRC.
PM me if you can't get it to work and I'll try to look it up.

[Meglobob]

Random items in Diablo/Diablo 2 were great. There was always the surprise factor when you got something better than you already had and the Yip factor when you got a outstanding magic item.

What really made it great was any magic item you did not want you just sold, so you got a reward for every magic item.

It would be nice if in Dominions you had a alternative to throwing a magic item you don't want away. The ability to sell it for gold or get 1/2 the gems back, rounded down.

Just for the record, I have thrown a ring of wizardry away on purpose... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Humakty]

Arralen said:

K said:

Humakty said:
I want alpha centauri 2 !!
A side question : does anyone succeeded in making AC 1 run under XP ?


There is a file on the Firaxis website that makes it work.
Check the first download. (http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=7&showcon=2)



I have run it successfully without that patch - that patch makes it impossible to play MP against anyone not using it.
'Twas something about "ForceOldVoxelAlgho" or something in some ini file, and tinkering with desktop settings IIRC.
PM me if you can't get it to work and I'll try to look it up.



Thanh you both, I'll give it a try tonight, and PM you if I fail once more.

[NTJedi]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Take a look at the Exiles/Avernum series by spiderweb software. They manage to provide quite a lot of replay value without random items or maps. The game world can actually change if you take too long to get something done, for instance, so you can take things in different directons.



A fixed map, with fixed towns and fixed NPCs mean that by the third time you play the game you know where to find the important quests, where to find the important NPCs/Monsters and best locations for advancing your character. THE MAIN MYSTERIES within the game are gone after a couple games!


Lazy_Perfectionist said:
There are cases for both situations, and both types of players. But personally, I find games with random items less immersing and decrease the original play value (and hence the replay value) considerably. If they're partially random, like as in Sacred or Divine Divinity, I can live with it. But if they're near completely random, as in Diablo 2, they never manage to hook me.

On the other foot, there's the whole niche of Roguelike games, but I won't get into that right now. I don't have that much to say.



I'm not saying only random items, I'm advising both for a game. A game with 10,000 items which uses the example formula I provided has greater replay value than a game with 200 fixed items. On a game with only 200 fixed items there's a more likely chance the gamer will find the best weapon and armor which then removes one of the fun features known as treasure/weapon hunting. Not much to chat with family and friends about when you've found XYZ weapon which has also been found several times by 20% of other gamers.
What's great about Dominions_3 is the quantity of the game content and 10,000 items, monsters, maps, npcs, quests is greater than 200 of the same.

[Kristoffer O]

> ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/firedevil.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

> Now my new question is.....

> (Question to the devs) (But you can stil answer if you think you know the answer)

> What have you learned from this game?

No idea. That it is fun to work on a game people like, that you stop work when people complain, that JK is less bothered by agitated forumwriters than me, that JK gets too little appreciation, that we are more creative whern we work closer and not like dominions now is done (development has come to a phase where i mostly add stuff according to old concepst and JK fixes old boring issues, nbot veery creative for him), that people doesn't know what is most fun for them, that people doesn't know what is fun for others, that people are incredibly clever at finding powerful strategies, that you can achieve a lot just by doing what you like, that game developments is either creatively hindered by a structured development plan (no fun to do chores in the beginning to make a base for the game as it should appear two years from now) or hindered by unhinged initial creativity and absence of initial structures (dom3 still suffers from some of the developments in dom-ppp), that my ambition has increased by each version for good or bad (why is MA pytium not more bysantine in feel), that my increasing ambition hinders creativity, that we ...

Alot I guess. A lot more I guess. Even more I assume.

> And how will you implement all the positive feedback received from this game into something better or something in a greater scale?

Not at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But all impressions, opinions, great and not so great ideas have probably been internalized by some hidden and hopefully mighty (at least lvl17) part of my mind.

We do not, however start out aiming for a greater scale. Start small and let the organics of creativity work - grow, grOW, GROW ... ping: game finished! Blubb, blubb, flush! Game doesn't stop growing.

> Will this game evolve into something that appeals more to the "average gamer" or will it get even deeper in the sense of having an even richer strategical game play?

If Microsoft buys the rights to the game and makes a quick paced and graphically pleasant RTS I would be most pleased http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It would be fun to see what they would come up with and how much they would cut away or brutalize http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

> What worries me is that such a good game, such great, deep and interesting Lore and strategy system be forgotten or left un-polished. As I've said before in my second post in this forum this game could be the UTIMATE game if polished correctly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Polish is just polish. I have no imminent need to get the game polished. I have recieved plenty of nice feedback and is content with that. I'm not particulary interested in getting rich, nor in getting famous. I'm quite happy with being the creator of a game and a world that a couple of thoudsand likes and some hundred perhaps rates as the best game ever. Of course it would be nice if more people felt the same, but I think I prefer to have a couple of hundred students that thinks I'm a good teacher that has helped them.

I don't think dom3 will be forgotten. I will not forget it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I know where you're coming from, but for the purposes of enjoying this debate, I'll focus on the opposition.

So, really, what's so fun about killing 1000 monsters in Diablo, and getting equipment you'll never be able to use?
At least in Nox, your time wasn't wasted with out of class loot. In Nox, you certainly did know where equipment was, but the underlying mechanics were good enough on their own merits. As well, even if you got the best weapon, the careful level design meant it did not suck all the fun and challenge out of the level. In practice, as well, the complete lack of random items and random drops meant that you could not farm respawning monsters for gold. That meant there were game altering decisions based on your purchases at the shops. The first time trough, you'd buy and sell the best equipment you could afford. Which wasn't much. Never stuck with the best unless you found it first. The second time through, you'd consider whether you could afford to skip that purchase. Knowing where the 'best weapon' actually increased the challenge, not decreased it. Certainly, if you bought something in a store, found the good weapon, and sold back the weaker one, it was easier. But the highly limited amount of gold and exp in the game (no farming) meant that to really maximise the benefit of that weapon, you had to go in and get it without making a shop purchase. It actually increased the challenge. As well, this whole 'best weapon' thing is nonsense when there is no random monsters or items, and serious thought gets put into weapon and monster design and placement.

[Kristoffer O]

> What's great about Dominions_3 is the quantity of the game content

True, but I also consider it a quality that there are no Fireball I, Fireball II, Fireball III, Blast Fireball I, Blast Fireball II, etc.

I get very annoyed when I find items like 'Swift Blade of the Badger', 'Swift Axe of the Badger', 'Cruel Spear of the Badger'. I do not count these as different items, but one. And one that is more boring as there are several similar ones. If there was one 'Swift Blade', one 'Axe of the Badger' and one 'Cruel Spear' I would like each of them more than the generic ones. I instinctively considers the generic items as generic and thus never fun and always of possibly lesser power or usefulness than items with unique (even if common) names and abilities.

[Kristoffer O]

> On a game with only 200 fixed items there's a more likely chance the gamer will find the best weapon and armor

On the contrary. WIth generical items there are bound to be better combinationbs that are quite easy to percieve. With premade items you can tweak and give disabilities etc that the generic items will never have if crafted by optimizing players, and in case of random finds, be obviously better than others.

[Gandalf Parker]

Kristoffer O said:
> On a game with only 200 fixed items there's a more likely chance the gamer will find the best weapon and armor

On the contrary. WIth generical items there are bound to be better combinationbs that are quite easy to percieve. With premade items you can tweak and give disabilities etc that the generic items will never have if crafted by optimizing players, and in case of random finds, be obviously better than others.



As much as I love random (you know I do) I have always considered the best in any game decision to be a mix of random with some logical boundaries. If the things that a spear cold be boosted to do is defined, and particular pronouns defined in their effect, and certain adverbs, etc etc then random creation shouldnt be too bad.

I TOTALLY understand the thing about players not knowing what is best for them. Ive admined online worlds and sometimes had to laugh at what players wanted because giving it to them would do totally destroy their fun in the game.

[Endoperez]

Many roguelikes, like Dungeon Crawl, use both unique, pre-defined artifacts (Ring of Shaolin, increases your defence +8) and randomly created items (from +2 spear, to +2 axe of chopping, to +4 axe of chopping 'Teuhha' which increases your eyesight, lets you go berserk and makes you vulnerable to cold). Something like that, but with generic items limited to trinket power, could work well.

[NTJedi]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
So, really, what's so fun about killing 1000 monsters in Diablo, and getting equipment you'll never be able to use?



I personally feel the monsters from Diablo_2 were not made correctly. The average monsters died way too quickly(1 or 2 blows) and most enemy bosses could kill the player way too quickly.
I also disagreed with how Diablo_2 dropped way way too many items and disagreed how Diablo_2 had chests lying all over the place.


Lazy_Perfectionist said:
At least in Nox, your time wasn't wasted with out of class loot. In Nox, you certainly did know where equipment was, but the underlying mechanics were good enough on their own merits. As well, even if you got the best weapon, the careful level design meant it did not suck all the fun and challenge out of the level.


NOX was a good game and I'd still be playing it today if the game didn't have fixed maps.


Lazy_Perfectionist said:
In practice, as well, the complete lack of random items and random drops meant that you could not farm respawning monsters for gold. That meant there were game altering decisions based on your purchases at the shops. The first time through, you'd buy and sell the best equipment you could afford. Which wasn't much. Never stuck with the best unless you found it first. The second time through, you'd consider whether you could afford to skip that purchase. Knowing where the 'best weapon' actually increased the challenge, not decreased it.


The farming problem is because developers don't create a changing evolving world. Thus there might be a quest to kill enemy boss XYZ which is the foretold destroyer of the current world yet the player could take 5 years or more where nothing in the game changes. Since players know the game doesn't have any real threat of you losing after X amount of time thus gamers spend time farming. Eventually we might see a game where the harder difficulties cause bad events to happen in the game world which effects the player(s) who's wasting time farming or being lazy. Poor Diablo never stood a chance because him and his minions were couch potatoes.
Knowing where the best weapon can be found might increase the challenge initially yet if you've played the map 3 times or more then the challenge continues to decrease as you know what to expect.


Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Certainly, if you bought something in a store, found the good weapon, and sold back the weaker one, it was easier. But the highly limited amount of gold and exp in the game (no farming) meant that to really maximise the benefit of that weapon, you had to go in and get it without making a shop purchase. It actually increased the challenge. As well, this whole 'best weapon' thing is nonsense when there is no random monsters or items, and serious thought gets put into weapon and monster design and placement.


The serious thought for the placement of monsters and items should be left to the gamers which use the map editor and modding tools. A perfect example of this is the original Neverwinter Nights where the editor has produced tens of thousands of campaigns which satisfy the tastes of every RPG or hack/slash gamer or whatever tastes in the middle and beyond. As time passes when the developers have moved onto other work the editing gamers can then continue to evolve/expand/improve these campaigns for the community. Let the developers provide us with the random map/world generation, game editor and modding tools while talented fans from the community create the MANY uniquely creative campaigns.

[Theonlystd]

The rigidness*sp* of Dom3s item system always bothered me some..

Some randomness, or a create your own item or heck even allowing players to add and edit items in a mod would be great

[NTJedi]

Theonlystd said:
The rigidness*sp* of Dom3s item system always bothered me some..

Some randomness, or a create your own item or heck even allowing players to add and edit items in a mod would be great



I think a great addition was if randomly generated items were given to some independents thus adding more mystery.
I was under the impression the modding/editing of items was suppose to exist or added via patch for DOM_3 yet it never arrived.

[Endoperez]

The very basics of item modding already exist. We have tools for editing costs of existing items. We can't create new items or add any abilities. It's there, but it can't really be used for much besides balancing the costs.