MA Ermor advice please

[Aezeal]

I don't need to know all the details, I like to find out stuff myself too, but I don't want to make ALL the basic mistakes either

I've never played an undead race before and I have no idea how ermor (in any age) plays out

I'd like a few pointers in the right direction about pretender build (incl scales etc)

-which blesses would be best for ermor and why
-would you play ermor MA with blessings
-which scales are important and which are not
-are there any scales I should put on the negative to save points?

a few suggestions for pretender builds would be nice. I'm doing a SP to practice for the MP I voluteered for

my current build is
Imprisoned Lich queen
A4D9
income 1 or 2
prod 2
heat 0
luck 3
growth 0
magic 0

dominion 5

I took high prod cus I read the quality units have high resource costs. Even though I'm imprisoned I only have a 9+4 bless because I'm very hesitant to take negative scales

I have no room for higher dominion in the build as it is and I never take a lower dominion than 5 either (like with the scales I like to be a bit save)

the only thing I might think about is drain 2 for 80 extra points which I would invest in higher astral and 1-2 dominion

another option would be death 4 astral 9

is the death blessing better than the astral one
(I usually play "good" races with earth/water/nature blessings so ermor is a whole new experience for me for my first MP too..)

[Endoperez]

Shadow Vestals are ethereal, which already makes them rather good at staying alive. Their spears are magical and deal decent damage. However, as almost always, Fire or Water bless will work better for just pure damage, and pure damage is very good when the units can already survive without the help of a bless. Minor Death bless is interesting, but doesn't win games. It can be used to bring thugs down, though. Death 9 isn't good for magical weapons. It's a bit better for mundanes, because it gives a small chance of magic damage (to get past ethereal), and a good chance to get past armor (AN, and most massable armored troops have lower mag res than most ethereal troops). Fire 9 Death 4-6 would be a nice offensive, "evil" bless. Of course, you should start that with a Fire pretender, to avoid negative scales.
Ermor gets away with Dead quite nicely. Death magic protects mages from old age afflictions, so Death scale doesn't hurt you as badly as other nations.

Most good Astral damage spells are in Thaumaturgy. Mind Burn is nice. Soul Slay is awesome, and Enslavement is nasty. Alteration has Body Ethereal, which isn't quite as good for MA Ermor as it already has ethereal units, but it is nice to make some ethereal Principes or something. Also, any S1 mage can cast Body Ethereal and Luck on nearby units, like your pretender... That's nasty on a Wyrm or something.
Death gets good summons from Conjuration, mass summons from Enchantment (including Raise Dead, which can be used to swamp battlefields with endless undead) and Drain Life (but not much else) from Alteration. Shadow Blast is very good Evocation spell, but it costs gems.
Astral/Death doesn't have many combinations, but they are rather powerful. Conjuration has Nether Gate, which is hideously expensive and summons a group of ethereal giants all armoured and wielding magic-slaying Moon Blades. Evocation has Nether Darts. Every caster gets at least 15 darts... And as Ermor, you have dozens of casters.

[Evilhomer]

Shadow vestals are very nice since they are ethereal and sacred. Also they cost almost no resources so you can go heavy on sloth and free up points. I have played against MA ermor several times, and a common build tends to be an astral-9, water-9 bless. Basically giving the vestals twist fate, more mr, more attacks, and very high defence.

You can achieve this for example with an imprissoned oracle and the following scales:
dominion: 8
order: 3
sloth: 3
heat: 0
growth: 0
misfortune: 2
magic: 1

[Aezeal]

So for a bless you'd advice water9/astral4 or something?

that would be kinda hard I think and is it wise to have a pretender without death magic?

I would like to keep astral since it's nice for end game (or so I'm told)

I could put in death 1 and drain 2 for 120 extra points which would enable that option if I take a pretender which start with some water magic.

on how to play.. I started with building high thaumateurgs for 5 turn and let them reanimate horsemen then I'm building those guys again only now for research. (once I have my 2nd fortress I intend to start buying the cheaper theurgs there for research though.) I dont'see myself having much problems with resources either since I'm not really buying much of the other troops atm. so I could drop the production scales a bit for more order scales (money is more a problem for me atm)

any advice on my thoughts as typed above?

From endo's remark the most important and straight forward advice seems to be to not take death 9 bless and spend points elsewhere (water to combine with the high def of the vestals and option of extra attack?) his reasoning seems sound.. what do others say about that?

[Shovah32]

Death 9 isn't a great bless and you have fairly nice access to death magic anyway.
The Astral 9 gives your vestals a good MR boost to prevent banishment and twist fate to negate the first hit that gets through their ethereality(twist fate is also great on mages against rain of stones and such).
The Water 9 you seem to already have the general idea of.

[Aezeal]

lol I read the strat wiki so I have a general idea of all the blesses.. just not completely on which is best and when http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif so I'm always open for advice (I intend to win my first MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

what about how I started the game, neglect research till I have a steady horseman factory in my main city then switch to research (in the meanwhile building a lector from time to time use with the horseman and when I want to use the shadow vassals I would send a high theurg for the blessings out with them)

[Lord_Bob]

Nobody seems to be impressed with the D9 bless... but a D4 or D6 can give you a pretty good affliction boost with normal damage AND magic spells.

So D9 is probably not worth it, but D4 or D6 is a much, much cheaper "lesser bless". However, you already have strong Death magic.

W9 is strong. BUT the water path is not so much.
F9 is close and "boosts" W9 nicely.

You can raise legions of chaff.. but remember that MA Ermors regularly troops are quite strong just by themselves. Sloth may be a bad idea.

Bane Lords!

Astral magic is helpfull under most circumstances. Astral or Air provides late game mobility.

Easy booster paths:
Construction-2
Earth-E2
Nature-N2
Water-W3(with a W1 later)
Astral-E2S2(with S3 later)(power boosters at S5 and S6)

Later,
F1-D1 for fire

Air is VERY VERY HARD to get started with construction.
Hard. Hard. Hard.

Nature/Water has good and easy summons to get it going.

Death/Earth has some summons.

Air has the Fairy Queen.

[Sensori]

Lord_Bob said:
Air has very later summons. Hard Hard Hard



Uh, if you can get Nature going, what seems to be the problem? You forgetting Faery Queens? Which have costs only in Nature but have, what, 3 air?

[Lord_Bob]

Yes, I did miss them. It's not obvious from the spell description so I never summoned one.

Sorry.

[Aezeal]

ehm now someone is saying go sloth 3 and another says I should not. My own (about 20 turns experience) says that so far I have not builds much regular troops and that cash is always nice. with cash you can easily build more fortresses to give more places to buy troops even though there is less per site (but you need to be able to spread you troops over the whole dominion to defend it better so I'd say going 1-2 sloth and then 3 order would be nice.

I getting convinced that at least water 9 is the way to go.. but bout death I hear conflicting things now..
The reasoning to go for astral 9 after water 9 seemed very good though so those (lord bob) who are pro death.. can you tell why taking death in stead of astral 9 would be better?

[Sensori]

Lord_Bob said:
Yes, I did miss them. It's not obvious from the spell description so I never summoned one.

Sorry.



You are forgivennnn!111

[Evilhomer]

Sloth may be a bad idea.



We are all entitled to our own opinion I suppose. But ethereal sacreds are very potent, and shadow vestals are very good for early expansion as well as early conflict with neighboring nations. In my opinion you should pump out the maximum number of vestals each turn (determined by how high dom you picked, so you want high dominion). They cost 40 gold 3 resources (thats a gold/resource ratio of 13, which is really high). This clearly suggest that you can get away with alot of sloth if you need the extra points.

When you pick a bless you look at the stats of your units and try to either cover a weakness and/or build on a specific strenght:
Why astral-9/water-9?. Vestals have no armor and low hp, twist fate basically gives them another life. Also the extra mr will make them very hard to use banish on (cover a weakness). They also have very good starting defence so adding more will be very potent, thats why I would go with water-9 as well. Also you can pick this bless with an imprissoned oracle rather cheap (compared to a fire-9/water-9 bless).

As for scale order is critical, you want more gold simply. rest is probably up for personal preference.

You can of course go with some high production build and not build vestals, but it seems like a weaker and less effective build for me (but try some builds out for sure, and pick what you find most fun).

[Shovah32]

Aren't vestals just 20 gold and 3 resources until the patch when they become 35 gold each? Or are you talking about in CB?

[Lord_Bob]

Well, I like the idea of having high grade non-undead armies to kill legions of priests.

W9-S9 bless seems very, very nice, BUT everyone should remember that MA-Ermor has similiar troops to MA-Pythium.

And that means very tough.

[Evilhomer]

Ah sorry, had the balance mod enabled when I checked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif. Still 20 gold and 3 resources seems to work with sloth as well.

[Lord_Bob]

Taking Death-9 is almost certainly never better than taking Astral-9

A WEAK Death bless like D4 or D6 can be usefull.

But if you are going all out for bless, by all means take

W9/S9 and Sloth-3

That is a strong bless strategy.

[Shovah32]

From someone currently playing MA Ermor in a multiplayer game sloth 3 isn't too bad - you can still afford nice amounts of legionaires.
I took a F9S9 bless in this game and it served me very well - allowing my vestals to run through my neighbours when I fought them without too much trouble.
The reasons for S9 have already been listed. The F9 was there for a number of reasons including diversifying my magic and giving the vestals some real hitting power - allowing them to punch through enemy lines before priests and mages could pick them off.
My bless was already made known in the forum thread a long time ago and anyone who can see my dominion knows I have sloth 3.

[Meglobob]

Shadow Vestals are excellent for early expansion, MA Ermor can easily grab a huge empire in the first 12-20 turns with Dom 10, S9/W9 bless. A thermaturg with 20 shadow vestals will slice through ANY lvl 5 indie. Like a knife through butter. Pump as many of those armies out and conquer indies like you have never conquered indies before.

However, when you start running into other players, your invincible shadow vestals will then run into serious problems. They have huge problems with any fire nation such as Marignon and Abysia. Vestals hate fire! There are also many other undead counters. So I advise, using them in a stealth, raiding capacity after that.

Switch to your human troops then, backed by your strong astral/death magic.

Shadow blast, later nether darts are great offensive spells. Remember, communion/communion slave. Banes/Banelords/Tartarians. Well of misery for extra death gems, other players normally will not try to dispel this global.

There are lots of other stuff to play with but I will leave that for you to discover.

[Shovah32]

Meglo, I havn't used W9S9 too much but 8 F9S9 Vestals led by a thaumaturg(dump any spare resources from that turns recruitment into a legionaire meatshield) is more than enough to challenge most indies level 7 or lower although avoiding knights would probably be a good idea.

[Serenity]

I dont get it, why ask stuff like that? I've tried every nation atleast a few times, and I think you should go play instead of asking how to play.

[Aezeal]

hmm evil homer seems to have the same idea's as I get when reading all this.. if you dont'go for sacreds then I shouldn't go for a bless build after all... then I can better go for high prod. with a SC but that is a whole other game, appeals less to me (I want a high level mage (pretender for late game high impact spells)) and in all my games so far I've been relatively light on troops and certainly in teh start I always needed as much cash as I could find
... so far.. I'm thinking in the direction of a W9S9 bless with at least 2 order, preferably 3 luck, a reasonably high dominion and if I need negative scales I'd put 2 in sloth first, maybe some heat and cold to since I figure I need less supplies --> do you all agree?

my most pressing concern now remains wether Drain is a problem or maybe even good for my nation (drain 2 for only -1 RP means I can go) --> or are ther otehr things I should take in consideration?

9S9W
3 order
2 sloth
2 cold
0 growth
3 luck
2 drain
and keep dominion on 8
with a imprisoned oracle

so far 3 lcuk has been a given EH used 2 misfortune even which means I could put 5 scales more positive elsewhere.. but compared to my setup just above here.. which one would you all trade for luck.. or would you leave the luck too?

[Shovah32]

Chances are he has played with them. He's just asking for advice to see if he missed anything or if there are ways in which he can improve his build. Alot of players ask for help with nations they have to play(myself included) and several players write guides for various nations.

edit: Order and luck, while nice, is a little bit wasteful as luck reduces how many events you get. Keep it if you want it by all means but you'll be missing out on alot of points. Misfortune 2(or 3, if you feel you can risk it) could buy you up to magic 1 and maybe get you a bit of growth/a bit less sloth(if you want) too.

[Jazzepi]

Don't get luck 3 with order 3.

Take order 3 misfortune 2.

Jazzepi

[Meglobob]

Serenity said:
I dont get it, why ask stuff like that? I've tried every nation atleast a few times, and I think you should go play instead of asking how to play.



I think he wants to survive past turn 30! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

But seriously, not everyone has the time to play every nation. I still have not played every nation and I have been playing nearly a year now. To really get to 'know' a nation, you after play 50+ turns. As somethngs are not apparent early on.

[Aezeal]

Serenity sure I will play (I just started a game) them but as I said I want to win my first MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I have set my mind on playing with this nation I know nothing about so far.. so since I have no time (at least I hope the game starts this week) for 3-4 SP games to see wether sloth 3 is REALLY a problem etc. (I'll admit that even in my SP game I'd like a decent start cus why learn the basics of a nation in 3-4 games when with a lil asking you can learn a lot in 1-2 (I'm posting and reading here while waiting on the turns.. not like I have something better to do.. I like to see it as MAXIMIZING my learning curve in minimum time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

I mean if I need to play 3-4 games with ALL RACES just to learn the basics of them then i'd take way more time than I have.. I've got a pretty busy just, and it's taking way more hours than most people spend on their job (here in the netherlands at least) so I just have to take short cuts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I'm not ashamed of it either. And strat talk in general will improve my game with all nations and I like it.

Jazepi.. that would indeed give me 200 point to spend which could nicely go to growth 3 for a better base late game and .. soemthing else. But the gem/magic item/heroes are always such nice surprises... makes the list worth reading http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I still would like more opinions on drain/magic most games I just take drain 2 for just -1 RP and build more mages (which I can afford easily with the + scales I take for those)
what are your thoughts? any other things that you guys think I should take into consideration with magic vs drain in general and for MA Ermor specifically?

[Humakty]

I think that, in SP, you could relly heavily on Death enchantments, like,(an example I've chosen randomly)the marvelous undead elephants(3 to 4 in each main army), who will crush the AI hordes. I also think you should not take sloth, cause basic undeads rarely win battles alone.(1 or 2 prod could help for a beginner, (I often take prod)). The rest as been developped before in this forum.
Ah ! I don't think vestals kick that much, 'cause, if I remember well, they're capital only.( not sure of this one)
Anyway, a zero prot sacred needs lots of buffs before becoming usefull.

[Shovah32]

Vestals are capitol only but with 8 or higher dominion+bonuses for temples later it isn't that bad.
Sure they have 0 prot but they also have very high defence, ethereality and(with an S9 bless) twist fate.
With their low cost(3 resources and 20 gold currently. Going up to 35 gold with the patch) you can also always get your maximum amount per turn.

[Jazzepi]

Aezeal said:
Serenity sure I will play (I just started a game) them but as I said I want to win my first MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I have set my mind on playing with this nation I know nothing about so far.. so since I have no time (at least I hope the game starts this week) for 3-4 SP games to see wether sloth 3 is REALLY a problem etc. (I'll admit that even in my SP game I'd like a decent start cus why learn the basics of a nation in 3-4 games when with a lil asking you can learn a lot in 1-2 (I'm posting and reading here while waiting on the turns.. not like I have something better to do.. I like to see it as MAXIMIZING my learning curve in minimum time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

I mean if I need to play 3-4 games with ALL RACES just to learn the basics of them then i'd take way more time than I have.. I've got a pretty busy just, and it's taking way more hours than most people spend on their job (here in the netherlands at least) so I just have to take short cuts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I'm not ashamed of it either. And strat talk in general will improve my game with all nations and I like it.

Jazepi.. that would indeed give me 200 point to spend which could nicely go to growth 3 for a better base late game and .. soemthing else. But the gem/magic item/heroes are always such nice surprises... makes the list worth reading http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I still would like more opinions on drain/magic most games I just take drain 2 for just -1 RP and build more mages (which I can afford easily with the + scales I take for those)
what are your thoughts? any other things that you guys think I should take into consideration with magic vs drain in general and for MA Ermor specifically?



I used to do this a lot. What I discovered is that it really depends on your mages. If you have 7-8 research point mages, then you can probably afford to take the -1 research hit and go drain 2 with the intent of spamming forts + mages to catch up with other people who have +1 magic.

If you don't, and a good example would be a nation like EA Abysia, or MA Man, you're locked into having at least magic 1. If you take drain 2, for instance, with EA abysia, your prime researcher only produces 3 points of research per turn. I shouldn't have to explain how abysmal that is.

What's really happening is that the lower research your guys are, the more an improvement percentage wise an increase in the magic scales are. The higher researcher your mages are, the less relative benefit you're getting out of it.

Jazzepi

Jazzepi

[DrPraetorious]

Assuming you can get the death income, it's often a good idea to go for skull mentors as MA Ermor.

I'll expand on the advice that Meglobob and Aezeal have been giving. This is my most successful MP build for MA Ermor:
9S9W Imprisoned Oracle
3 Order
3 Sloth
2 Misfortune
1 Magic
Domstr 8

I think that balances out (I'm at work waiting for a colleague who IS LATE); if you've got points left over take a Growth.

An early expansion army should consist of an archtheurg and 16 shadow vestals. Put ten or so of the javelin legionaires *in front* of the vestals and set them to fire, which will prevent the occasional vestal casualty that you'd otherwise suffer from archery (legionaires are basically arrow-proof). That'll keep you going for a while.
EDIT: The shadow vestals should be set to attack. This set-up is resistant to archery but doesn't have much archery of its own to fall back on.

Against another player, put legionaires of some kind (we can argue endlessly about which kind is best, but the pros and cons generally balance out) in the front rank, shadow vestals behind them (set to attack rear) and undead in the rear behind your mages to soak enemies set to attack rear and to mop up in case the rest of your army flees for whatever reason.

Put the mages in the middle of the army and slightly off to the side - *never* leave them in the actual middle where they default because sometimes the computer mysteriously chooses to shoot at that spot. Spread them out in a line. Give them bodyguards that can't be targeted easily.

With Const 4, Evoc 5 and Thaum 2, you have battlemages that will punish enemy players well into the late mid game. Put ~three archtheurgs with skull staff (optional), eye, spell focus and *some kind of armor* and ~eight theurgs. The theurgs all form a communion and the archtheurgs cast shadow blast through it. This will often kill an entire enemy army, even of crazy stuff like angels. The armor, by the way, is an absolute must to protect your investment in these guys. Even a shroud of the battle saint makes them essentially immune to stray arrows, and much more resistant to assassins.

[Aezeal]

a question do you let the enemy come to you with that setup (javelineers in front of vestals) or doyou just start em like that and then let the vestals attack?

[Aezeal]

preatorius why not use cold or heat.. seems to me that would be better than misfortune or sloth cus you really don't need that much supplies right?

[Aezeal]

the drain 2 would also ive higher MR against banishment right?

[Shovah32]

I charge at the enemy with that set-up. The legionaires are just to absorb arrows/knight charges for the first 2 rounds of battle really.

Why not use cold or heat? Because each also causes a 5% income loss(although I took DrP's scales+some cold so I could buy growth).

edit: You can just edit your post to add small notes like that thing about drain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Yes, drain 2 would give +1 MR but your vestals already have enough and you can boost your low MR undead with spells. That boost also works for both sides of the battlefield, and with your magic being MR negates(nether spells, shadow blast and such) you want the enemy with as low MR as possible.

[DrPraetorious]

Actually, I think this might be a better build (Archaeo suggested it on IRC):

Dormant Oracle, 4F4W9S, Domstr 9
3 Order
3 Sloth
3 Growth
1 Misfortune
2 Drain

The loss of quickness on the shadow vestals hurts considerably, but the extra money (and theurg life expectancy) is muy nice, and +2 attack is nothing to sneeze at. You don't go through indies *quite* as viciously but it's still not at all bad.

[Aezeal]

well I already submitted
W9S9
dom 8
order 3
sloth 3
0growth
1 cold
1 misfortune
1 magic
imp oracle

[Shovah32]

DrPraetorious said:
Actually, I think this might be a better build (Archaeo suggested it on IRC):

Dormant Oracle, 4F4W9S, Domstr 9
3 Order
3 Sloth
3 Growth
1 Misfortune
2 Drain

The loss of quickness on the shadow vestals hurts considerably, but the extra money (and theurg life expectancy) is muy nice, and +2 attack is nothing to sneeze at. You don't go through indies *quite* as viciously but it's still not at all bad.



That only has 1 better net scale and 1 higher dominion than the dual bless build. For example, you could take 1 more misfortune and 1 less dominion and get a dual bless again.

[Aezeal]

OK in my SP game I'm having quite some difficulties to destroy the larger R'heyhey forces,
The commander existing of all globes (Vastness) the weird mud like thins (greater otherness) which ahs only 3 attack and defense but which trample all my undead and the black sluglike thingies.. etc

If he has like one of the first and several of the latter 2 and about 30 illithids (in various sizes) and a few meteor guards .. With the regular armies I have around through my dominion (like 4-6 theurgs around a few dozen archers, horsewarriors, loads of undead (longdead horsemen and warriors) and a commander or 2.. The strange beasts he has crush all my infantry, spellcasters paralyze my archers.

my mages had a communion of 4 slaves, one master, casting shadow bolts and later raising dead, the other 2 theugs kept casting nether darts...
my archers where shooting the illiths in the back (hardly doing damage on 30 HP guys) my spell casters casted on the strange beasts.. hardly doing damage the infantry killed maybe one or 2 of the mudblobs but only got trampled

maybe some advice on how to do this... I can beat the AI player by just throwing LOADS and LOADS of troops at him but i'm loosing WAY and WAY more troops and I'm not liking it

[Jazzepi]

Shovah32 said:

DrPraetorious said:
Actually, I think this might be a better build (Archaeo suggested it on IRC):

Dormant Oracle, 4F4W9S, Domstr 9
3 Order
3 Sloth
3 Growth
1 Misfortune
2 Drain

The loss of quickness on the shadow vestals hurts considerably, but the extra money (and theurg life expectancy) is muy nice, and +2 attack is nothing to sneeze at. You don't go through indies *quite* as viciously but it's still not at all bad.



That only has 1 better net scale and 1 higher dominion than the dual bless build. For example, you could take 1 more misfortune and 1 less dominion and get a dual bless again.



I'd much rather have the quickness and slightly worse scales. Quickness allows you to transverse the battlefield much faster. It also makes it easier to mow down the opponent when they're trying to flee which is extremely important. With a small army of sacreds it can be difficult to win a battle decisively without quickness, as you might route the opponents, but then they just run away.

Jazzepi

[Aezeal]

Ok but my build has been made, the game has started. Jazzepi you hvae advice for dealing with Rhlyeheh , PS the above example was on land.. in sea it's even worse...

In sea I usually just mass 120 undead on a theurg with ring of waterbreating and then take a weak prov and then try to expand a bit and keep building in each prov I capture.. but dealing with strong enemy armies in water REALLY REALLY goes BADLY.. usually I have to retreat, hope the army breaks up and parts go on land.. where I might be able to kill them....

[sum1lost]

Try to use powerful summoned commanders with magic equipment (known as thugs and SCs). They are somewhat more effective underwater than a normal army.



Arcane domination is very effective against Rlyeh as well, so long as you have a rune-smasher and eye of the void

[Meglobob]

Try bottles of water with your water gems on your commanders.

Also try to use that shark attack spell if possible.

[Aezeal]

I'm saying that even on LAND I have huge problems against these units.. and I don't have THAT much powerfull commanders who are fully equipped.. I''m pretty sure they can't beat a large army with some powerfull commanders by themselves though

I'm trying an eater of the dead next.. see what he can do.. and a wraith lord and a grand theurg and 4 normal theurgs.. and some army ..

[KissBlade]

Eater of the Dead is very very poor for it's cost/tech level. Invest in banelords/tartarians instead and try to see if you can empower to cast abominations. Also don't forget to spam antimagic

[Lord_Bob]

Do you have the:
Dom 3DB at:
http://koti.welho.com/ehalttun/Dom3/ ?

If you look up illithids there you will see they are a 50 gold unit. So while you make think you are fighting "only" 30 illithids, that is 1500 GOLD in units.

From what little I know of R'yleh I think the Greater Otherness and Vastness are SUMMONED or Void Gate or some such thing monsters.

The Mindless undead are probably doing better than you think against such a swarm of high cost units.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I also would like to bring to your attention the database at Sunray's virtual library.
http://www.freewebs.com/dominions2/
It's quite handy how the units are organized by nation.
I use both databases, but the one I hit first when facing a nation I haven't fought before is Sunray's. Edi's is good as well, containing (lots more) different info in a different format, but takes several times as long to load, and is aimed a bit towards modders and mapmakers, etc.

[Aezeal]

Only 30 or not.. I'm not even getting near them those blobs and whatever .. only 10 -15 of em are taking my army apart bone by bone

I'm summoning tartarians as we speak (2nd one coming in , I just got lvl 6 consturction too so am crafting a load of weapons, I'll be summoning a load of tartarians and wraith lords next.. that should do something..

PS what do you guys think of the ether lord (ether gate)

anyway I must admit to lord bob that once that army was out of the way (and I have no idea where they have gone since I've not killed them.. maybe he has retreated and I'll encounter them later..) that as of yet I've not encountered a similar army and I'm taking provinces of him by the turn

[Evilhomer]

PS what do you guys think of the ether lord (ether gate)




Good units, but not a cost efficent summon. I would only recommend it if you are in need of a high level mage with the specific paths the ether lord has (S3D3).

[Aezeal]

yeah I admit seeing my tartarians I can see much better use for them, a ****load of HP is just nice, combined with strenght and some slots for stuff... nice nice nice

[Shovah32]

Remember to cast gift of reason on any afflicttion free tartarians(or atleast those who aren't mute/feeble minded) to get some versatile mages and potential SCs.

[mathusalem]

what is your most efficient build to reach D7 and casting Tartarians ?

A lich +1 skull face +1 staff +1 empowerment ?

[Evilhomer]

Usually Lich + staff + skullface + ring of sorcery (30 astral gems if forged with hammer). If you can forge the sceptre of dark regency (+3 staff) you can use that one as well.

[Aezeal]

gift of reason... not in my spellbooks..

[Frostmourne27]

Gift of Reason: thaumaturgy 4, nature 3, 25 gems - see manual for details.

[sum1lost]

ether warriors are actually rather good against rlyeh, by virtue of all carrying moonblades....

[mathusalem]

I am thinking about an Oracle W4 E4 S9 versus F4 W4 S9

what do you think about it ?

E4 will be very useful for
1°) mages and revig versus +2 ATK for Vestals
2°) forging hammer => research skull cost fall at 7D
3°) a lot of spells from construction (Golem, Dragon, ...).

Indeed I plan to rush construct 8 for uniques items like +3D staff

[Aezeal]

yeah frostmorne I knew that.. I'm just not really into the whole 3 nature thingie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif.. and I must say.. 25 gems more than triples the gem cost of the tartarians.. I just keep casting 2 a turn atm and see what happens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif.. I'm now fighting abyssia in the seas.... it's annoying that not all undead titans can go into water... a bug?

[Folket]

As not all undead can enter water I would say it is not a bug. You should be able to give them a ring of water breathing.

I do not know if it has been meantioned before. Do not use Shadow Vestals against astral nations. Solar rays are just Evocation lvl 2 and will exterminate your Vestals. They could also mind duel your Theurgs.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well, Mathusalem... that oracle will be a bit flawed. The bless is nice, but with no recruitable earth mages, you may go without finding any earth gem producing sites. In that case, you'll have to convert astral pearls to earth gems for Gnome Lore. A decent rate of change, at least. And it is possible, though rare, that you'll cast a site search spell nine times without finding anything of that path.

As there are a few astral sites with earth gems, you may find some if you are patient. But in the early game, you can't depend on any earth income, especially being immobile. Also, if you have the appropriate neighbors, consider conquering the nearest earth-based nation, if you can. If they've found most of the sites for you, all the better. Of course, there is Acashic Record, but it is a bit pricey.

You may get lucky, but equally likely is that you'll be horribly pinched for earth gems in the early game. You can depend on it later in the game, though. Perhaps go for a dormant or imprisoned pretender. Spend those points on diversifying your bless. Air can make you even harder to hit by missiles, including those inevitable flaming arrows. Blood 4 will give +2 strength, which can help.

[IndyPendant]

I'm going to be starting an MP game soon, playing MA Ermor, and I'm playing around with Pretender builds. I'm resurrecting a slightly aged thread here to ask a question:

Is +1 defense, +50% movement, and +50% attacks to your vestals really worth 7 Dominion Scales?

Azeal and DrP both present Imprisoned Oracle pretenders with W9S9. When I was examining this build, I noticed that to go from W4 to W9 costs 280 points, for which all you get is +1 defense and the water bless on your sacreds. Or for that 280 points you could go from Sloth-3 and Growth 0, to Prod-3 and Growth-1 (or Growth 3/Prod 0/Luck -1, and so on). Going from Water-4 to Water-9 on your Pretender nets you almost *nothing* in greater magical power, so it's not even factored as a consideration here. (You could also, for those 280 points, take any two of Fire-4, Blood-4, and Earth-4, for +2 attack, strength, and/or reinvigoration respectively--and then still have room for N2 as well, which all allows for greater crafting/summoning diversity...)

I'm having problems picking the final stats on my pretender. So convince me you're right! ; ) What would you recommend? Do you think it's better to enhance the vestals, improve the scales, or take multiple magic paths? Or even to use an entirely different pretender build? And why?

Thanks,

IndyPendant.

[archaeolept]

it gives you +3 defense not +1, and 50% more attacks makes them (slightly more than) 50% more valuable units, not counting the defense bonus...

[IndyPendant]

Well, maybe I could have been clearer, but I meant that W4 gives you +2 defense. W9 gives you +3 defense and half-quickness. So the net difference between W4 and W9, for 280 pretender points, is +1 defense and water bless...

[archaeolept]

I think W9 is pretty well mandatory for these guys. you could just try an f4w4?4 bless, take production, and have them backed by a bunch of principe/hastatii/alae, but I think you will find that your expansion is significantly curtailed.

[vfb]

Crazy Vestal hordes is fun. With a big water bless, they can attack rear faster to get rid of pesky archers and dangerous mages (and when they get there, they kill them 50% faster too!)
Edit: Please note I'm not saying just take a W9 bless .. I think protection-zero ethereal Vestals are the optimal nation for S9W9, so take both blesses.

If you are building vestal hordes, you don't need Prod-3. Sloth-3 does the job just fine. You don't need growth because your only old age unit has death magic.

[KissBlade]

The most standard MA Ermor opening is to use a S9 oracle with good scales. Get animators + nether darts and just expand like crazy since you have both principes + animators and vestals to allow you to take over indies with easy.

[Agrajag]

W4 is +2 Defense, W9 is +4 Defense, that's a difference of 2 Defense. (And of course the quickness)