Allegiances 2 (Large,Team-Based Game, PLAYING)

[Thrawn]

With the success of the first team game, Allegiances...

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=540583&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

...I would like to go ahead and begin forming the NEXT team game. This will be a much larger game, with a maximum of nine teams of 2. At the minimum, I would like to have 6 teams, but hopefully we can get more.

The rules will probably change before game start, as we analyze their effectiveness in the first game. Right now, we have...

CURRENT RULES:

1. Early Era

2. Random team pairings

2. Nations pre-grouped by theme

3. Random selection of theme

4. Once game begins, no hostile actions can be made until at least after the 15th turn (but no one is required to attack on turn 16 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

5. Standard victory condition. Default settings, except no graphs, and renaming is allowed.

CONNECTION INFO:

67.66.187.69
Port: 9945

MAP:

Latest attached above

PLAYERS:

1 - Thrawn
2 - Micah
3 - Shovah32
4 - DrPraetorious
5 - OoohSnap
6 - Yucky
7 - Folket
8 - Sivoc
9 - Velusion
10 - Baalz
11 - Snacktime
12 - Janlm


EARLY ERA THEMES:

1. HAZY SHADE OF WINTER
Niefelheim - Janlm
Ulm - Sivoc

2. TOGA! TOGA! TOGA!
Pangaea - Velusion
Arcoscephale - Thrawn

3. PYRAMID POWER
Mictlan - Baalz
C'tis - Shovah

4. ARE WE ON FIRE YET?
Abysia - Snacktime
Yomi - Folket

5. GIBBERING ALL THE WAY
Agartha - Dr. P
Caelum - Micah

6. DRUIDS ARE TOTALLY VIKINGS, RIGHT?
Helheim - Yucky
Marverni - OoohSnap

With more teams, this should be a dynamic and exciting game opportunity.

[Evilhomer]

Sounds fun, sign me up. Do we get to chose who plays what nation within the team ?

[DrPraetorious]

Last time you could divide your theme however you wanted.

Sign me up as well.

EDIT: And yes, I will make another map. Do we want people spread out in a circle again?

[Micah]

Sure, sign me up.

I think splitting up the water teams is a bad idea though, it seems like it would really restrict the amount of help the 2 allied nations could give each other and result in divide-and-conquer tactics being used to pick off the isolated nations.

Rlyeh/Atlantis as a team would be a pretty solid pairing, I think (as opposed to Atlantis getting its *** handed to it by the other 2 aquatic powers, like in every other EA game).

And Dr. P, for the map, I think the lake should be in the middle as opposed to one of the sides, since Ulm/Mari got ganged pretty fiercely in the first game purely from the map layout.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, you'll notice that no-one is *forced* to take a water nation.

My preference would be to allow people to pick water nations, if they wished, in mixed teams, and then I'd make the map with the correct proportion of water.

We could also put a water team in the middle and arrange all the other teams in a ring around the edge.

Note that Agartha is amphibious and can assist a water-based ally.

But my real problem is that we'd either have one team of 2 water players - who no enemies that can reach them, which is the other thing that happened in the first game - or one team of 2 water players and 1 mixed team that gets kicked out of the water immediately.

There just aren't enough water-based nations to have team water-warfare, is my feeling.

[Micah]

Unopposed water nations happen often enough in other games that it doesn't seem like a huge problem to me, though. That's their consolation prize for sucking outside of the water (and EA Ocean/Rlyeh are REALLY bad topside, with Atlantis being non-viable for water-warfare, even with help from an ally, since they need resources more than gold). I guess we could leave the aquatics out altogether, but splitting a team up like that just seems like a booby trap to me. I don't disagree with your assessment of how things would break down, I just don't think an unopposed water team would be a game-breaker.

If anything the water team would probably be too weak, since I don't think EA Rlyeh can duplicate the success I've had with their Middle age counterparts, due to their significant drop in magic diversity and the lack of item slots on their mages. Anyhow, I'm not admining the game, so it's not my call to make in the end, I just wanted to bring it up to be looked at as an issue.

[Shovah32]

Count me in.

[Thrawn]

Dr. P - If we go with water teams, I think your suggestion of "we could also put a water team in the middle and arrange all the other teams in a ring around the edge" is the right instinct. I think it will help with the issue of teams being surrounded at startup.

Then again, I think having more teams in general will help with the problem on its own, as well.

Adding all you guys! Welcome!

[carlosib]

Count me in please.
Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thrawn]

You got it Carlos...

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, would people like treasure provinces?

I could put a treasure province in between each pair of teams, at the province equidistant from both the nearest of their two capitals.

This would give everyone something to fight over - I could even put VP in the treasure provinces or something.

[Thrawn]

With the treasure provinces, are you pitting the teams AGAINST each other, Dr. Praetorious??? How very Machiavellian of you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Sounds fun to me...

[Velusion]

Looks like fun - but when is this scheduled to start?

[Thrawn]

No scheduled start, just trying to fill up with players. I would think next week, though.

[DrPraetorious]

I could switch Atlantis and R'lyeh.

That way, Atlantis, relatively weak in the water, would have the support of an amphibious ally (Agartha), while the other water powers would have to handle their water battles alone.

Alternatively, just pull the water nations from their current assignments and put them in the middle as a tenth Team.

[archaeolept]

i'm a total noob to domIII - hopefully that doesn't cause my partner any problems ;p

maybe i'll get an easy nation like mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

so count me in...

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, here are the legendary provinces I drew out of a hat - I have notes on lots more but I only flesh them out when I pick them. Each treasure province makes an independent mage, provides a bonus to a spell category, and is guarded by five mages and ~100 gems worth of summoned troops. The mages and any summoned commanders split another 60 gems worth of useful magic items.

1) Sarnath. Academy Underneath (2W, Hydromancer), Temple of the Turning Tide (1W, Alter 20), Ruined Temple (1S), Sea Underneath (5W).
Hydromancer x5.
Telestic Animate x2.
Sea Troll x50.
Ice Drake x5.

2) Anduine. Whispering Woods (1N1A, Enchantress), Tempest Spire (1A, Evoc 20), Cypress Forest (1N1A), The Mammoth Forest (3N).
Enchantress x5.
Amphiptere x5.
Vine Ogre x25.
Hamadryad x20.

3) The Black Tower. Black Tower (3D, Circle Master), Crown of Darkness (3D, Thau 40), Damned Merchant x2 (1B each).
Circle Master x5.
Wight x12.
Shade Beast x15.
Bone Fiend x24.

4) Plains of Another Age. Gateway (1S, Conj 20), Tower of the Iron Order (2E3S, Iron Order), The Cliff of Seven Directions (1E1S), Lake of Reflected Time (1S).
Adept of the Iron Order x5.
Golem x2.
Mechanical Men x20.

5) Smouldering Ruins of Argash-Va. Banefire Forge (1F1D, Const 20), The Obsidian Sphere, The Shadow Furnace (1F4D), The Temple of the Raging God (2F, Fire Lord).
Fire Lord x5
Lich x1
Skeletal Archers x40
Smoulderghosts x20
Fire Snakes x20

6) Pelsilandus. Forest of a Thousand Streams (1W1N, Enchantress), Bottomless Lake (1W, Conj 20), The Forest of the Lake (2W1N), Chillsick Swamp (1E1D1N).
Enchantress x5.
Fall Bears x5.
Winter Wolves x20.
Bog Beast x24.
Catoblepas x1.

7) Brightcrest. Mirror Wall Palace (3A, Sorceress), Nexus (1S, Ench 20), The Great Mirror of Maaki (1A1W1S), Strange Opening (2S).
Sorceress x5.
Abomination x2.
Great Eagle x13.
Claymen x40.

8) Gold Tower. Tower of the Golden Order (3F2S, Golden Order), Solar Lens (1F, Evoc 20), Fire Rift (2F), Bronze Pillar (1F).
Adept of the Golden Order x5.
Medium Fire Elemental x50.

9) Dragonmount. Academy of High Magics (1E1N, Wizards), Forest of Golden Leaves (1F1E1N), Mountain of Power (3B, Evo 30, Ench 30), Dragon Mountain (1A).
Wizard x5.
Tarrasque x2.
Draconian x20.
Cave Drake x5.
Storm Demon x10.

10) Ganzak. High Temple of the Magii (2F2S, High Magii), Basalt Pillars (1S), Gorge of Mystery (1S, Alter 20), Fountain of Fire (3F).
High Magii x5.
Yazad x20.
Scorpion Beast x10.

Suggestions are appreciated, or if you guys hate one or more of these I'll just replace them.

[Folket]

I'm in.

[Thrawn]

Gotcha Folket. Those sound super sweet Dr. P.

[archaeolept]

heh, i'm all for having yummy treasure provinces... those might be a bit over the top though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

i'd prefer them each w/ one fewer good site, myself...

[DrPraetorious]

Well, I could lower the gem income from ~9 to some, say, much smaller number http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

But I do think they should each give two major bonuses. One of them is guarded by *tarrasques* and is probably a match for most national armies until the midgame.

Wizards are great for anyone, but a lot of indie mages are just not a big deal, depending on which nation you're playing. Likewise, some magic bonuses are very ho-hum for some positions.

[Micah]

Dr. P:

The Crown of Darkness site poses a problem, since it's got a 10% chance of diseasing each of the 5 leaders each turn, who will then die 9 turns later, meaning it's likely that the province will be free for the taking around turn 20 as all of the undead there run away for lack of leadership. Need to either give them demonic/undead leaders or swap out the Crown for something else.

There are also a couple of proposed provs that are mixed between UW and non-UW sites, is that a problem or can the normal placement be overridden by specific map commands? The Academy underneath allows aquatic-only recruits, for example, while ice drakes are non-amphibians.

[tromper]

Oh yeah, count me in if you will. How about the worthy hero mod or somethin'? I enjoy the role playing aspect that can come along during turn processing, even if others don't care about heroes or it isn't always the best strategic choice for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As an initiate and all that, those look super cool, DrP.

[AlgaeNymph]

I'd like to participate in this game also. Do you need anything else from me?

[Saint_Dude]

Micah said:
The Crown of Darkness site poses a problem. . . . Need to either give them demonic/undead leaders or swap out the Crown for something else.



How about giving the circle masters rings of regeneration? They would still get diseased, but should not die.

[DrPraetorious]

That was my intention exactly (rings of regeneration), for both the circle masters and the enchantresses. I could switch out the Circle Masters for Wight Mages, also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I'm also concerned about the *units* in chillsick swamp getting diseased, and might change that one.

The site placement can absolutely be manually over-ridden; from a schtick standpoint, the Academy Underneath is *in* the Sea Underneath.

If there's a consensus one way or the other I can easily tone these provinces down or whatever people want, I just picked what seemed to me to be a treasure-province level that people would actually fight over.

[Velusion]

Sign me up.

[Thrawn]

Cool, welcome Velusion!

[Baalz]

I'm in.

[parcelt]

I'd like to play too.

[Thrawn]

Hey Baalz and Parcelt. Welcome!

[Thrawn]

So, looks like we'll have at least 7 teams, almost double what we had in the first game. We'll close off recruiting Monday or Tuesday, and get things started.

As last time, I'll random roll the teams, then random roll the theme for each team. Unless you guys want to do something different this time for theme selection? Bids or whatever. Let me know your thoughts...

Can't wait.

[Evilhomer]

Bids would be cool, but I don't care that much either way.

[DrPraetorious]

Since I'll be fixing the start locations (after assigning them randomly), bidding or drafting could be handled just fine, but would be a logistical challenge since, presumably, players would have to be paired into teams and *then* they would bid. What do we want for water nations?

Possible map arrangements:
1) Water in the middle, extending towards one edge if there's a third water position.
The all-water team has both starts in the middle, the mixed-water-Agartha team (if there is one) has a watery salient off to the side and Agartha is near the coast.

2) Spokes on a wheel.
The map is divided into "pie slices", and each team gets one start location near the middle of the map, and one start location near the edge of the map.
The water will, once-again, be "L" shaped, with the water team having an entire water pie, and the other water player have some more water near the edge of the map.

IF we have water teams -
1. TEAM - HAZY SHADE OF WINTER - Niefelheim + Ulm
2. TEAM - OM MANI PADMA, MOTHERF****R - Kailasa + T'ien Ch'i
3. TEAM - TOGA! TOGA! TOGA! - Pangaea + Arcoscephale
4. TEAM - PYRAMID POWER - Mictlan + C'tis
5. TEAM - DAWN OF EMPIRE - Sauromatia + Ermor
6. TEAM - ARE WE ON FIRE YET? - Abysia + Yomi
7. TEAM - GIBBERING ALL THE WAY - Agartha + R'lyeh
8. TEAM - DRUIDS ARE TOTALLY VIKINGS, RIGHT? - Helheim + Marverni
9. TEAM - DRUID = VIKING, EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW - Tir na n'Og + Vanheim
10. TEAM - GLUB GLUB GLUB - Atlantis + Oceania

Caelum is left out. Caelum + Kailasa would be a logical team.
EA Agartha kicks *** in the water, but I'm a little worried about how Agartha survives in the event of war with another land player.

I eagerly await feedback - and Thrawn has the final word, in case of any disagreement. I'll start sending him maps as soon as we're sure

[Evilhomer]

I really think none should be forced to play a water nation (especially not in EA) as per the latest change. I liked the first setup where the choice of playing in the water was optional.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay.... how about this?
1. TEAM - HAZY SHADE OF WINTER - Niefelheim + Ulm
2. TEAM - OM MANI PADMA, MOTHERF****R - Kailasa + T'ien Ch'i
3. TEAM - TOGA! TOGA! TOGA! - two of: Pangaea, Arcoscephale, Oceania, Atlantis
4. TEAM - PYRAMID POWER - Mictlan + C'tis
5. TEAM - DAWN OF EMPIRE - Sauromatia + Ermor
6. TEAM - ARE WE ON FIRE YET? - Abysia + Yomi
7. TEAM - GIBBERING ALL THE WAY - two of: Agartha, R'lyeh, Caelum
8. TEAM - DRUIDS ARE TOTALLY VIKINGS, RIGHT? - Helheim + Marverni
9. TEAM - DRUID = VIKING, EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW - Tir na n'Og + Vanheim

And then I'll make the map when/if we have water players.

[Evilhomer]

That works for me...

[Thrawn]

That works great. Though, admittedly, I do miss the team name "GLUB GLUB GLUB". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Editing the first page...

[llamabeast]

24 hour hosting, I presume? I am sort of tempted to sign up, but the trouble is that I have no internet access at home at the moment (and no Dominions at work), so unless hosting happens to occur while I'm at work it's not really feasible. Grr. Stupid BT (British Telecom) are taking 40 days to put in our phone line (a prerequisite for broadband), when it is meant to take up to 72 hours. They are also impossible to contact unless you have several consecutive free hours to listen to them telling you they 'value your call'. It's been so frustrating I've nearly been reduced to tears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[llamabeast]

Yeah, actually guys I've decided I definitely won't join this game, sadly. I'll host it though.

[Velusion]

llamabeast said:
I'll host it though.



Likewise, if people would prefer a TCP/IP Direct game I can host on my server.

I'm partial to direct connects (lazy with the emails required for PBEM) but it doesn't really matter that much to me.

[Baalz]

Velusion said:
I'm partial to direct connects (lazy with the emails required for PBEM) but it doesn't really matter that much to me.



Being quite lazy myself (and prone to mail the wrong turn file in) I wrote a script which:
1) Copies the .trn file from my downloads folder
2) launches the game in question
3) emails the .2h file to the right place (this step waits on step 2 to finish)


So now for my PBEM games the only extra step necessary to take a turn is that I need to download the turn file (I've got a separate desktop shortcut for all my dom3 games, the PBEM ones just launch this .bat file instead). Not hard to set up, I highly recommend it for anyone doing multiple PBEM games.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:

Velusion said:
I'm partial to direct connects (lazy with the emails required for PBEM) but it doesn't really matter that much to me.



Being quite lazy myself (and prone to mail the wrong turn file in) I wrote a script which:
1) Copies the .trn file from my downloads folder
2) launches the game in question
3) emails the .2h file to the right place (this step waits on step 2 to finish)


So now for my PBEM games the only extra step necessary to take a turn is that I need to download the turn file (I've got a separate desktop shortcut for all my dom3 games, the PBEM ones just launch this .bat file instead). Not hard to set up, I highly recommend it for anyone doing multiple PBEM games.



Oh that makes it much more palatable...

I might have to get that from you if I ever end up playing in a PBEM game.

[DrPraetorious]

So are gonna start with 16 people (one more...) or wait for the full complement of 18?

I'm ready to generate a map as soon as I know how many water players I have to accommodate.

[Snacktime]

Are y'all still recruiting? If so I'd love to join. Do I need to pick a nation? Thanks all, cool idea!

[Folket]

I prefer direct connect hosting.

[llamabeast]

That is very cunning Baalz, can't believe I never thought of it!

[llamabeast]

And of course Thrawn, feel free to go with whichever you prefer of mine or Velusion's servers. Both have definite advantages (I can't do direct connect hosting because of my university's firewall you see).

[llamabeast]

To be more explicit about the pros and cons - the LlamaServer gives you easier control via the web interface, while a direct connect server is obviously easier for the players to use.

[archaeolept]

direct connect is much more user friendly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Janlm]

this sounds interesting, i'd like to play

[parcelt]

I have only ever played on the llamaserver, which I think is great. Does direct connect require any specific settings on my computer? I am talking firewalls, internet settings etc, because on occasion I have to get my turns in from a work or public computer where I might not control all settings. Other than that, I have no preferences as to what server we use (although as said before, happy experiences with the llamaserver).

[Thrawn]

Let's try out Velusion's server, as people seem to be leaning towards that. Thanks for the offer, Velusion! Let me know what you need.

Let's go ahead and close up shop recruiting wise, and get things going. We have 14 players, so that gives us 7 teams. Dr. P you mentioned 16 players. Are there two that I'm missing? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If everyone is cool with it, I will random assign teams like last time, and then we can decide if we want to bid or random assign the themes.

Dr. P feel free to start on the map now that we know the amount of players at your convenience.

[Evilhomer]

Go ahead and make the teams with some random approach of your choice....

[DrPraetorious]

I need to know whether to put water on the map.

[archaeolept]

you forgot tromper... we need one more for the eighth team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Once the assignments are made I'll give a location for players to upload their pretenders.

[Thrawn]

No, Tromper PMed me and said he won't be able to join us. So, we are 7 teams. I will random assign teams in a few minutes, stay tuned...

[Thrawn]

And the teams are...........

Team 1 - Dr. P, Micah
Team 2 - Carlosib, Parcelt
Team 3 - Baalz, Shovah32
Team 4 - Thrawn, Velusion
Team 5 - Archaeolept, EvilHomer
Team 6 - Folket, Snacktime
Team 7 - Janlm, DryaUnda

Just drew numbers from a coffee mug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now, I will random the themes, basically the same way. Draw a number 1-7 from one mug (for the team), then a number 1-9 from another mug (representing the theme).

[Thrawn]

And the themes.......

TEAM 1. HAZY SHADE OF WINTER - Niefelheim + Ulm
Janlm, DryaUnda

TEAM 2. TOGA! TOGA! TOGA! - two of: Pangaea, Arcoscephale, Oceania, Atlantis
Thrawn, Velusion

TEAM 3. PYRAMID POWER - Mictlan + C'tis
Baalz, Shovah32

TEAM 4. DAWN OF EMPIRE - Sauromatia + Ermor
Carlosib, Parcelt

TEAM 5. ARE WE ON FIRE YET? - Abysia + Yomi
Folket, Snacktime

TEAM 6. GIBBERING ALL THE WAY - two of: Agartha, R'lyeh, Caelum
Dr. P, Micah

TEAM 7. DRUIDS ARE TOTALLY VIKINGS, RIGHT? - Helheim + Marverni
Archaeolept, EvilHomer

[Thrawn]

And, there we have it. It's up to the two teammates to decide which nation they will play. Once you decide, post the result here. If you have the option of a water nation, post ASAP, as that will effect Dr. P's map making task.

Also, should we make a new rule that Baalz can't play Mictlan? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Interesting. For the the two teams that have choices for the pair - what is the timing for those to be announced/determined? I assume it will be simultaneous?

Edit: cause otherwise Team 2 will just wait for Team 6 to declare what nations they are playing before deciding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Velusion]

More questions:

How big is the map going to be? and

Can we get a commitment to the proportion of water provinces per water nation beforeplease?

[Thrawn]

That's a good point, Velusion. Why don't we just have everyone PM me their nation choices, and I will post them all at once on the first page. Dr. P., I will give you a heads up, once I know if we need water provinces.

Map wise, Dr. P. can best answer, but I think last time we had 15-20 provinces per NATION? I'm sure we can have a commitment to a certain number of water provinces, once we know if we even need them.

[DrPraetorious]

I was planning on (15-20)*14 ~= 250 provinces.

# of water nations, # of water provinces
0 - 1, 10
2, 25
3, 40

[Evilhomer]

How about 17 land provinces/land player and 15 water provinces/water nation.

(I just picked some fair numbers to get this rolling). Also how will the nations be placed on the map ? adjacent I imagine, but will the map be wraparound ? And in brief how will it look ?

[Velusion]

Thrawn said:
I'm sure we can have a commitment to a certain number of water provinces, once we know if we even need them.



Well see I want a commitment to water provinces before we decide on what nations to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I'd hate for us to pick an all water team and there be something like 10 water provinces per water nation...

[DrPraetorious]

Well, I was going to use the built in RMG to make a conventional flat map and arrange the start locations either in a ring on the outside or on pie slices, whichever was easier to fit, and depending on whether we have water nations or not.

I think that's too much water - if you allow the water nations to be near-average size without leaving the water, they are too powerful, imo.

OTOH, the more water players you have, the more water provinces/player you should have.

[Velusion]

Evilhomer said:
How about 17 land provinces/land player and 15 water provinces/water nation.

(I just picked some fair numbers to get this rolling). Also how will the nations be placed on the map ? adjacent I imagine, but will the map be wraparound ? And in brief how will it look ?



That would be fine. I don't have a burning desire to play any of the four nations assigned so once I'm presented with final numbers on the water provinces I'll give my opinion to Thrawn as to which I think is the better deal and let him make the final choice.

[Evilhomer]

Drpre if I understand your map idea I will have two neighbors that will border me. One that I will be allied with.

[Micah]

Homer, I believe the neighbor layout will be something like this, example would be for the southernmost team:

Middle of map (water?)
..E.A.E..
E...A...E
Southern edge of map

A = ally
E = enemy

[DrPraetorious]

There are *two* possibilities, Micah is describing the "pie slice" arrangement, which I actually prefer.

The other possibility is the around-the-rim arrangement, which Evilhomer describes. Unless I hear otherwise from Thrawn, I will set up the map with the around-the-rim arrangement as soon as I know how many water players there are.

In case anyone missed the previous post:
Total Provinces = 250
# of water nations, # of water provinces (+/- 10%)
0 - 1, 10
2, 25
3, 40

[Velusion]

DrPraetorious said:
In case anyone missed the previous post:
Total Provinces = 250
# of water nations, # of water provinces (+/- 10%)
0 - 1, 10
2, 25
3, 40



Gah! 12.5 water provinces per water player vs. 18.75 land provinces per land nation?

No way could I would even consider water then.

[Baalz]

Or 25 water provinces if only one person picks water. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[parcelt]

I will play Ermor. Carlosib will play Sauromatia.

[DrPraetorious]

I will play Agartha, Micah will play Caelum.

[Baalz]

I'm taking Mictlan, Shovah's taking C'tis.

[archaeolept]

helheim; evilhomer has the gloriously indominatable bare-chested marvernians

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
Or 25 water provinces if only one person picks water. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



?

[Baalz]

Velusion said:
?



Oh, sorry I was just skimming and didn't realize that the number of water provinces was contingent on the number of water players. NM.

[Evilhomer]

When will this game start ? Maybe we should wait until next week, hopefully the patch will be out by then.

[Velusion]

I'll have a location to upload pretenders this evening.

[DrPraetorious]

So I take it that there will be no water players, yes/no?

I haven't heard from Thrawn so the start placement will be in a ring. I'm making the map for this and the starts for Evermore sometime this evening.

[archaeolept]

i'd say the weekend... maybe the patch will be out, and if not hopefully we can get a ton of turns in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

also gives me a couple days to figure out a pretender... awake 10b monolith?

[Velusion]

I've emailed Thrawn. I *think* He is taking Arco and I am taking Pan.

It's probably a safe bet to assume there will be no water players.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, here's how I've set things up.

There are four start locations across the top, and four start locations across the bottom.

There are four start locations to the east of the lake, and two start locations to the west of the lake.

It's not perfect but it should be good enough.

[archaeolept]

are allies to start close by, or what is the sytem?

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, each pair of allies start out adjacent.

[Velusion]

Ok you can start uploading the pretenders to:

67.66.187.69
Port: 9945

[parcelt]

Hi Velusion,

please forgive my ignorance, but how exactly do I upload my pretender? (I have only ever played PBEM)

thanks

[archaeolept]

hi parcelt.

first create your pretender god, under game tools.
then click network, and enter the ip address of the server.
then give the port (these settings will be remembered next time you join).
then choose your nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

I was under the impression that we were starting Monday?

[Evilhomer]

I was hoping so as well...

[AlgaeNymph]

My god is now in control of Ulm. My partner is Janlm.

[archaeolept]

hey monday's fine... i'm still trying to figure out these helheim units... that white menorah on the black horsies means they keep kosher, right?

[Thrawn]

Hey guys. Updating the front page with your nation choices. If you haven't posted them here, please do so, or PM me.

You can start uploading your pretenders using Velusion's instructions above.

The game will start Monday! Remember, no hostile actions against other PLAYER nations until after turn 15. You can kill all the independents you want. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

I'm Agartha, Micah is Caelum.

[Thrawn]

Unless I missed it, I think the only team not yet reporting in is Team 6 - Folket, Snacktime.

[Folket]

I do not think you have missed it. We are considering.

[Thrawn]

No rush, we don't start until Monday. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Snacktime]

Don't worry, Folket and I will get our nations/pretenders in by then.

[parcelt]

thanks for the explanations, managed to get my pretender in.

[Folket]

I'm playing Yoma while Snacktime plays Abysia.

What is the IP and port? And could someone update the first post with IP and port?

[Velusion]

Velusion said:
Ok you can start uploading the pretenders to:

67.66.187.69
Port: 9945

[archaeolept]

when are we supposed to start? ie. when should i have my pretender uploaded by? - i keep changing my mind, B10 sphinx, rainbow mage dragon, freaklord SC... so many possibilities...

[Thrawn]

We're going to start tomorrow!

[DrPraetorious]

I think we're planning to start tomorrow (monday) night.

[Snacktime]

I loaded my pretender. I'm Abysia, Folket is Yomi.

[archaeolept]

well, i'm back from work 7:00 mst... 9pm est... i'll upload then i guess

[Shovah32]

Does anybody know what time(GMT) we are meant to be starting this thing?

[archaeolept]

well, i'm uploading when i get back from work... so that would be 7:00pm mst , +6 hrs for GMT... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

Allies have exactly 2 provinces between their capitals.

Enemies should have exactly 4 provinces between their capitals but I did that by hand, might be a 3 province route somewhere that I missed.

The teams are:
Team 1 (Niefelheim/Ulm) - Red
Team 2 (Pangaea/Arco) - Yellow
Team 3 (Mictlan/C'tis) - Magenta
Team 4 (Sauromatia/Ermor) - Green
Team 5 (Abysia/Yomi) - Cyan
Team 6 (Agartha/Caelum) - Blue
Team 7 (Helheim/Marverni) - Black

The start provinces are all marked with colored lozenges. The number of neighbors was going to be related to how much space you had to expand, but that didn't work out, so everyone just has whatever start provinces they have.

After picking the fourteen start locations, I colored them randomly:
12/26 - Cyan/5
29/37 - Blue/6
97/98 - Magenta/3
115/142 - Black/7
153/156 - Yellow/2
218/232 - Green/4
226/228 - Red/1

Red and Magenta are both pretty *****in', Cyan got a bit screwed - I don't know if Black is in a good position or not. Sorry about that.

In all cases I put the "bruisier" position closer to the middle. That's Niefelheim, Pangaea, Mictlan, Sauromatia, Abysia, Agartha, Helheim.

The map file is attached.

[Velusion]

Looks good DrP.

[Thrawn]

Awesome, looks great...

[archaeolept]

ok, back, uploaded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

that map layout sounds great tndp... here's to a lot of fun

[Velusion]

We are just waiting on Shovah and DrP to upload and we can start.

[DrPraetorious]

?

Aren't I Agartha?

I think we're waiting for Caelum/Micah, he said he was getting back today but maybe not until quite late, not sure.

[Velusion]

DrPraetorious said:
?

Aren't I Agartha?

I think we're waiting for Caelum/Micah, he said he was getting back today but maybe not until quite late, not sure.



Whoops your right... looked at em wrong.

[archaeolept]

i have a rules question before we start... since black's start is the most cramped and since we're not allowed to attack each other until turn 15, but there's a possible exploit there... a flying race can fly in and grab strategic points to block expansion. I'm not saying I expect this, but would like the possibility to respond if i am "agressed" in this manner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

I'd suggest a modification - though its not perfect - that the no attacking rule be suspended for those territories within two of a nation's capital. For instance, one of my team is physically blocked from "his side of the map" if two territories two away from his cap are snatched.

this issue is really just an artifact of my team being relatively narrowly hemmed in - one side especially has a much more cramped axis of expansion, and so it could be possible to hem him in immediately and then hide behind the 15 turn safety zone. I don't believe this was the intent of the rule http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DrPraetorious]

I agree with archaeolept.

Attacking any land province within 2 hops of another nations capital (i.e., the neighbors of an enemy capital, and *their* neighbors) should be forbidden during the first 15 turns as well.

Of course, it's my fault that his start is cramped.

[Micah]

Uploaded (from the airport)

[Thrawn]

archaeolept makes a good point. I will amend the rules at the first page.

Posting ideas like this helps us figure out how to make future team games better!

[Velusion]

Game has started! if you want to be put on the email notification list PM me your email address.

[Snacktime]

It's telling me I need the BG mod. What mod is that?

[archaeolept]

ah ok... black is pretty [censored]... I'd propose dumping the 15 turn rule in this case, or we're left to strangle on the vine, and a war clearly of 1 against 2 on the south. But a fight out the gate at least allows us to die or salvage victory gloriously.

but i can certainly play as is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

or if any other team wants to trade? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(my opinion only, have not spoken with evilhomer)

On a somewhat different topic, it is asking for the mod BG.dm..???

[Velusion]

Blah!

Interesting/Annoyting note about hosting from windows:

If you create the game via a shortcut command line the game will still use whatever mod was enabled from the last game, even it if wasn't specified on the shortcut. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

So we have to reupload pretenders.

Sorry about this.

[Thrawn]

Baalz and I were in the same position as archaeolept and homer last time out. Does anyone have any thoughts on a solution, beyond redoing the map? Do we need bigger maps than usual for this type of game?

[Velusion]

The status page will be here when we start:
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/stats.php?game=Allegiances2

[Janlm]

eh how do i play my turn? all i get is an empty upload pretender screen...

[Velusion]

Janlm said:
eh how do i play my turn? all i get is an empty upload pretender screen...



I screwed up the game creation so we are back to reuploading your pretender.

[Velusion]

I managed to recover the pretender files - so we are good to go now. Sorry about the delay.

Good luck everyone!

[DrPraetorious]

I know that black position *looks* cramped, but count provinces. You've got as much room to expand as anyone except Red and Magenta (who got more room, according to the computer), and Cyan (who actually is cramped).

By my math, you should *easily* claim 30 provinces. The map is 239 land provinces and there are 7 teams total; so an average share would be 33 provinces, so if you can manage to grab 3 provinces which are in-contention you're doing averagely well. What's the issue?

Now, it *is* a concern that the two of you may not be able to attack the same opponent at the same time. For this reason, I'm worried about the black position being kinda screwed. But not due to cramping.

[Janlm]

what, did we have a turn already?

[archaeolept]

cramping has to do w/ expansion, w/ getting out of an area. black has that in spades, especially the south. there is no other nation w/ a start like it. It is different from everyone else on the face of it - such a situation should red raise flags w/ someone trying to create a balanced start. an exit 2 wide? sorry who else has that? its completely buggered - and then I am directly against two enemies, and cannot bring my own ally to bear? I am flabbergasted that this was set up as it was. 2 against 1? wtf? My desire to engage in a hincked game is rather low.

I offered to exchange starts w/ any other teams. its no surprise no one expressed even theoretical interest in this.

cramping has to do w/ the lack of possibilities of movement out of my area. no one else has anything even remotely similar. In a random map start, that's the way the cookie crumbles, but when start positions were determined by hand, its pretty shocking, as the position is self-evidently different from anyone else's. And having fewer options in how to expand or fight a war is always detrimental. geography is destiny, and my unavoidable destiny is to be curbstombed by having to go one against two head-on. There is no other way this game can go, come turn 16.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, so by "expansion", you mean expansion-into-other-players. I call that "conquest" - you've got the same amount of room for initial expansion as every other team.

That two province width of your borders makes it easy for either side to claim chokepoints. That does tend to favor the defender, making expansion yeah difficult, which I thought would be desirable for the person stuck in the middle of 3. Didn't know it would go to Helheim, obviously.

So, yeah, the borders between Black and the other positions are different from all the other borders (more constricted, staggered), and the black position is different from all the other positions in that the two capitals are not equidistant to their neighbors. However, you'll note that they are staggered - it is possible for the two of you to fight on the same border, you just need to walk an extra province or two.

Consider the situation Green is in - both of you have easy access to the western Green start, but eastern green has a lot of trouble reaching you. Eastern blue is not quite as cut off, but it's a similar situation.

With a little diplomacy and planning, you can fight either of your neighbors 2 on 1, with each of you taking a single province route.

Myself, I'd much rather have a short border than a long one, so, in fact, I did this to you *on purpose* because I thought it would compensate for the nature of your start. I agree that your position is challenging, but so are:
1) Green is next to Red (who is Niefelheim!), who has a corner. Sucks to be him.
2) Magents and Blue both effectively have three neighbors, instead of 2.
3) Cyan is extremely constricted for pre-war expansion.

None of them are complaining.

I tried doing this with several maps and this is the one that worked out best. There were additional fairness issues when I tried to make the map larger, as well - it was very difficult to avoid giving one nation or another sole posession of a large hinterland into which they could then expand unchecked.

Also 7 is a very difficult number to tile - there's no way to arrange 7, except in an absolute ring - without putting somebody in the middle of a group of 3.

You have about 1/7 of the map, and you have two neighbors, just like everyone else. Your borders are a little odd, and swapping start locations would require *restarting the game*, is probably part of why no-one else has even expressed interest in your offer.

[Folket]

Hmm... I seem to have three the empty spot in my capital. Never seen such before.

[Velusion]

Folket said:
Hmm... I seem to have three the empty spot in my capital. Never seen such before.



I think it was added by DrP so that site searching spells will work when automated. This way it skips over your capital.

[Velusion]

Here is the deal:

DO NOT CONNECT TO THIS SERVER WITH THE 3.10 PATCH.

I will post here when the game is updated and you can connect with the new patch.

I will upgrade all the games on my server at once. The timer will be be taken off all the games and I will manually upgrade and host all of my games Wed (tomorrow) at about 10pm. Please do all your turns with the old patch (3.08)

Until the upgrade of the server please continue to use the old 3.08 patch.

Thanks!

[Micah]

Is there any interest in restarting so we can get the new 1.10 magic sites into the game? I wouldn't mind waiting one more day to get the game rolling so we can check out the new content, but obviously Vel would be the one doing the extra work, so it's not my call, just thought I'd ask.

[Evilhomer]

Restarting the game with the new patch since we are on turn 1 seems a good idea.

[Thrawn]

Fine by me, I'd like to see the new stuff as well.

[archaeolept]

well, clearly i would like the start situations fixed... as is, I haven't been able to talk to my ally, but the situation is bollocks IMO. perhaps w/ a day or two delay, if the map is to stay the same, we could find a sub for me, since I have little interest in playing such a start. And I don't much care if Dr. P thinks it is fine, to set it up such that one player is necessarily fighting against 2, w/out help from his ally really due to the narrowness of the constriction...

this was not a random start. As such, my standards for what is acceptible are rather different.
and to have what is clearly a mathematical situation dismissed by the person who created the error in the first place, as "whining" is pretty fscking insulting. I've played this game enough to know the score.

[Velusion]

I can re start the game if need be.

I wonder if pretenders need to be resubmitted or if we can use the created under 3.08?

[DrPraetorious]

Pretenders should be reusable.

Does anyone else feel that the black start is so bad that it is unplayable?

I can do another map, with the wheel setup maybe, which is more scrupulously fair, but very hard to do the 15-turns no violence because the people in the middle are awfully close together.

I can also do zero water, or I could move the two black start locations to anywhere within the region to the west of the lake, if Archeolopt sees other provinces that he would rather use; as long as they are at least 4 provinces from both neighbors I don't see as it makes any difference.

[archaeolept]

well, little water would help no doubt, especially as there is one land nation that is also amphib(agartha). i'm sure we wouldn't have any problem like this w/ just the odd sprinkling of a one province lake here or there.

you could just set that whole lake to plains even - anything so we have vaguely open axes of advance like the other nations. This has the added advantage of making the game more diplomatic, as more nations can conflict w/ a greater number of opponents. As is, it is set up as a pure grudge match helheim vs. agartha and caelum.

[Thrawn]

Dr. P, are you okay with removing the sea, and replacing with land? This seems like the easiest solution, to make the starting situation more fair for Arch.

[DrPraetorious]

I fail to find any of these arguments convincing, but I don't expect to convince you - however,
1) By the mathematical measures I used they are quite fair (except, again, Cyan, which is several provinces of screwed).
2) If you objected to 10 water provinces / 0 water players you could have said so when I was configuring the map, I left commentary open for an entire week and I think I was being pretty explicit about what I was planning.

I, for one, am perfectly willing to oblige you if that's what it takes to move the game forward.

If we're restarting anyway, I could easily:
1) Move the two black start locations so that they are on the same north-south latitude.
2) Change some border mountains in the southwest to regular mountains, connect them.
3) Add some sea lanes going up and down the coast so that black can reach green and/or blue more easily.

Does anyone *object* if I do any/all of this?

If there's anyone else who thinks that the black start location is not salvageable, speak up now and I'll just make another map.

[archaeolept]

the proper mathematical measure would be amount of possible axes of advance ... ie. a combinatoric measure of the total number of shortest possible paths to, say, 5 provinces out. That would be the measure that would indicate how constrained a start is, or, conversely, how open the geographic situation. The number of possible paths will be much much less for black than for other teams.

the other measures are simple strategic ones. The situation is too narrow for both allies to support each other going one way or the other. i don't believe that is the case for anyone else. As well, the other simple strategic measure is the two vs 1 nature of the southern front. the mathematics on that one are simple enough to do on one hand, even after a gruesome industrial accident.

[Velusion]

I'm taking down the game since it looks like we are going to restart at some point.

[Janlm]

I don't really understand the problem, however I haven't really been calculating any mathematical formula to the advantage of my own position really, yet any others for that matter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I have no objections against you changing the map a little to satisfy black, now that we seem to be restarting anyway...

[DrPraetorious]

Okay.

So you want me to balance out:
Total number of provinces within 5 hops (disallowing passage through seas)?
Total number of shortest paths to whatever provinces are within 5 hops? Which will mean that each start location has an equal number of nearby chokepoints?

The *only* way to make this even for all start locations (along with inter-capital distances) on a map this size is to have neither water nor impassable mountains, which I think makes for a very boring map.

Is archaeolept the only one who wants a map like this or does anyone else share his concerns? Because the other start locations vary tremendously in this respect, as well.

If we're restarting anyway I'll swap start locations with him, but cannot do anything for the eastern positions.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, I've done 2 things:

1) I've switched start locations with the black team.
2) I've moved the two new-blue start locations (the ones west of the lake) so that they are now roughly equidistant between black and green.

Thus, Helheim now has plenty of vectors on which other players can attack him, and he doesn't have to worry that my team is in some kind of predestined cage-match with him.

Green is the only team who might possibly object.

I also changed every "Isle of Balor" (which used to be an empty slot, lol) into a new empty slot #149; hopefully that will stay empty for the forseeable future - otherwise I can just fill every capital with Farms of Plenty, I can't imagine a situation where that would make any difference. Is there a site that *literally* does nothing at all?

EDIT: NOTICE: THERE IS A NEW MAP ATTACHED TO THIS POST. DOWNLOAD IT, AND REPLACE THE OLD ONE WITH IT OR YOU WON'T SEE THE CORRECT START LOZENGES (IT IS THE SAME OTHERWISE).

[archaeolept]

DrPraetorious said:
Okay.

So you want me to balance out:
Total number of provinces within 5 hops (disallowing passage through seas)?
Total number of shortest paths to whatever provinces are within 5 hops? Which will mean that each start location has an equal number of nearby chokepoints?

The *only* way to make this even for all start locations (along with inter-capital distances) on a map this size is to have neither water nor impassable mountains, which I think makes for a very boring map.

Is archaeolept the only one who wants a map like this or does anyone else share his concerns? Because the other start locations vary tremendously in this respect, as well.

If we're restarting anyway I'll swap start locations with him, but cannot do anything for the eastern positions.

goddamn it i am not asking for any exact mirroring bull****. I was responding to your specious mathematics. If you can't use your own eyeballs to see how black team is far more constrained and hemmed in, then there is no possibility of relevant dialogue. the start as is is crap. since dr. p refuses to acknowledge the possibility that he could be wrong, and instead engages in a series of perversions of the issues i have, please remove me from this game. I would far rather be in any old random start game than argue against the person who created a totally bolloxed start.

HOW DO I COMBAT TWO MOTHERFSCKING TEAMS TWO ON ONE DR PRAETORIOUS? HOW IS IT YOU CONVENIENTLY NEVER BOTHER TO RESPOND TO THIS?

I refuse to engage in this humiliating argument any more. I will not be uploading any pretender. Give that start to some chump, and watch dr P's march to greatness.

remember, as there is no problem, there is no reason to change this map w/ my leaving.

perhaps having an interested participant in the game design the start locations is not the best of procedures. I have no trust or faith in the current self-interested system. To my mind, the start of this game has already been poisoned to me by all this bull****. What is the proper procedure in a set start if a participant feels that a start location is much worse than the others?

[Snacktime]

I am Cyan and I hear our position stinks. I say, it's just a game! We'll do the best with what seems to me to be a relatively fair set-up.

If someone can clarify what actions are needed in light of the patch, though, I'd appreciate that.

[Micah]

Ok, so DrP spent time making up the map for this game, and as a thank-you gets accused of cheating his way to an unfair starting position, AFTER offering to switch starting positions and take the supposedly "totally bolloxed" one himself. While we're "conveniently not responding" to things I don't see how Arch could miss DrP's offer to switch our starts around (he even quoted it). Arch's last post seems to have become a personal attack instead of a reasonable argument about the map, especially given the choice of language.

Also, chokepoints work both ways, so while the black start is constrained I'm not entirely convinced that that's particularly ruinous. I'd love to hear from someone else in the game if they think that black is in an excessively bad starting position, because no one has yet done so.

[archaeolept]

i'm not interested in subjecting myself to this bull**** just to get an interesting game started. I appreciate the work he put into this, but instead of responding to what to me is obviously an unfair position, he just engaged in a belittling of my analysis as to why the position sucked. this is not a random start. positions need to be reasonably balanced. i am accused of whining because i don't like two against one? well [censored] you

[Micah]

How does offering to modify the map and/or switch positions not constitute responding to your concerns Arch?

[DrPraetorious]

I haven't just *offered* to switch starts, I have *actually done it*.

Edit Brief reply:
On the subject of multiple constraints:
I had to generate several maps before I got one that I thought I could arrange the fourteen start locations in this way, and which had all the water in the middle.

The odds that I will be able to find 14 such provinces that also have similar between-ness (which is the only way I can think of for what archaeolept says he wants to be remotely the same for different starts) are extremely low, and such maps would be hard to pick out by eye.

The only way to easily do this is to not have any mountain ranges or lakes (even small ones generate a lot of chokepoints, and large ones generate an extra "edge" on the map).

So even if I thought this property were desirable (I do not), I couldn't do it.

The second point, that one start has to fight without the support of the ally, has some validity and did concern me. But with the two starts only three provinces apart, I decided that it was less of an issue than insuring that the two positions had different independents to conquer.

End edit

I have just given you a new start which is, by your criterion, extremely strong (yes I counted routes). Since I disagree with your criterion, I'm going to take the start you regard as weak, and I cannot understand why everyone is not happy with this.

Download the new map file (I notice no-one has touched the attachment) and you will see Helheim/Marverni now start in the lower left (which used to be my start location) and I've taken the center-west start location for myself.

I've even moved the two center-west starts to the same latitude, even though I think this makes the position worse (because the immediate neighbors of the two allied starts have more overlap).

Again, I think that the center-west is better than the southwest position that I just gave you - and would have been happy to trade when I was generating the positions in the first place - but didn't, because I assigned them randomly so I was stuck with my assignment. By your criterion, if I understood it correctly, the southwest position is absolutely fantastic - lots of different routes to all over the place.

If this still doesn't satisfy you, because the *other* start locations that you didn't get are not balanced to your satisfaction, by all means, leave. But I have gone to great lengths to accomodate you so if you are leaving now, kindly refrain from joining games where I make maps in the future.

[archaeolept]

i'm sorry for any discord my concerns caused.

at this point i do not feel good about participating in the game.

i have no doubt some of the blame rests with myself.

homer is a good player and deserves a fresh start with another ally. I would hope it would be easy to open this up for a helheim player. i'm sure it would be a fun and interesting game for many players, but not for myself.

better a fresh start and put all this behind you.

again, please forgive my need to excuse myself from this game.

[Velusion]

I have nothing to add to the current, um, conversation... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif but I do have a suggestion for the next game to save Dr P some headaches.

Before we start he shows the map to everyone with his recommended starting positions. At that point everyone has a day or two to complain/*****. If no one specifically complains about a starting position then at that point you randomize what team gets what position. This way people can't complain after we start.

And thank you DrP for going out of your way to do these maps.

[Janlm]

if we start over, will it be possible to upload a new pretender?

[llamabeast]

Wow, I think Dr P gets props for being impressively diplomatic!

[Snacktime]

I take it this game is delayed a bit, is that right?

[Thrawn]

Okay then, so we need 1 more now. LOL. I will edit the first post, and start looking.

Dr. P, again thanks for all the work on the maps. I tried to do a few easy map edits for a game once, and found the process very tedious. So, really appreciate the level of detail you go into...

[Velusion]

Janlm said:
if we start over, will it be possible to upload a new pretender?



IF you want to change pretenders just email me the pretender file: velusion(at)sbcglobal.net.

[DrPraetorious]

I believe that Dedas is joining.

Can we open for pretender submission as soon as the server is updated?

[Velusion]

DrPraetorious said:
I believe that Dedas is joining.

Can we open for pretender submission as soon as the server is updated?



Since it is only one person it would probably be easier for him to just send me the god file when he is done and then I can start up the game.

[Thrawn]

Has Dedas joined yet?

[Dedas]

I will send you the god file in an hour or two.

[DrPraetorious]

Thrawn - could you also update the root of the thread with the revised map so that people know to download it?

The older map will actually still work, but some of the start provinces will be incorrectly indicated.

[Dedas]

Is the sever down? I can't contact it.

[Velusion]

Dedas - Email me the pretender to the address below and I'll start the game this evening.


Velusion said:

Janlm said:
if we start over, will it be possible to upload a new pretender?



IF you want to change pretenders just email me the pretender file: velusion(at)sbcglobal.net.

[Dedas]

Pretender sent.

[Thrawn]

Yep, I will move the new map to the first page for download.

Thanks for joining Dedas, welcome!

[archaeolept]

thanks for taking my place dedas. good luck to all

[Velusion]

It's back up. I highly recommend you redownload the newer map attached to this thread rather than from the server.

[DrPraetorious]

Also - remember to delete your previous folder (savedgames/Allegiances2) so that you don't accidentally generate a turn from the previous 2h file!

[Evilhomer]

I won't be able to do my turn until late saturday night.

[Dedas]

Thank you for letting me join in. This will surely be an interesting experience.

[DrPraetorious]

I endorse delaying the first host until evilhomer can get his turn in; or someone can take his first few turns for him.

[Thrawn]

What is the timer set on anyway, Velusion?

[Velusion]

24 hours. I'll extend it out this evening.

[Shovah32]

Guess who forgot his password...
I'll keep guessing for now I suppose.

[Velusion]

Shovah32 said:
Guess who forgot his password...
I'll keep guessing for now I suppose.



If Shovah can't guess his password we can either restart or I can give him the masterpass...

[DrPraetorious]

I vote to give him the masterpass.

[Baalz]

Fine with me, we're all friends here....

[Thrawn]

Fine by me, too.

Good luck everyone, btw.

[Folket]

I would need this game to not be force hosted during the weekend.

[Velusion]

Folket said:
I would need this game to not be force hosted during the weekend.


Tongiht I'll extend the deadline until monday.

[Velusion]

I'm sending Shovah the masterpass then since I didn't hear any objections.

[parcelt]

Is the server down? I can't seem to contact it?

[Velusion]

mmm I can get in... anyone else having problems?

[Micah]

Working for me.

[parcelt]

mmmh, I just tried again, can't get in.

I'll try a few more times, but I am starting to wonder whether this has anything to do with internet settings / firewalls or whatever, as I mostly play from my work laptop.

[carlosib]

Sorry guys, i really dont know how the game is going. I've been out of town since friday and even though i thought i would have acess to a computer to keep playing my turns i didnt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
This is the only chance i have at a computer and all i can do is tell you that i'm still in the game and coming back tomorrow evening. Then things should get back to normal and i'll keep playing my turns regularly as usual.
Thank you for understanding (and not setting me to AI) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Carlos

[parcelt]

ok, this is not looking so good here. I keep getting the message that either my internet connection or the server I am trying to contact, is down. I know neither is the case.

I am afraid this has something to do with settings/firewalls (that won't allow an application to get on the internet by itself or something), which i cannot change. I'll try again but if it won't work I'll have to drop the game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Velusion]

What are we going to do about parcelt? Also I see DryaUnda hasn't taken thier turn...

[Dedas]

You should not need to open port 9945 to play as you are not hosting and thus not opening up to inbound connections. It is possible that you have a VERY strict setup on your firewall though.

[archaeolept]

i'd restart the server... something's getting buggered.

[AlgaeNymph]

Velusion said:
What are we going to do about parcelt? Also I see DryaUnda hasn't taken thier turn...

I thought the game was on hold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Velusion]

I saw that DyraUnda took his turn so I know the server is working.

Carloslib should be back tonight. Can we change the title to look for a replacement for parcelt?

[parcelt]

Please go ahead and find a replacement for me. Sorry for the inconvenience everyone.

[carlosib]

Ok, i've just played my turn. Bad to hear you cant play the game parcelt, i guess we'll have the chance to be partners some other time.

[Velusion]

Does anyone mind if I get this game back on track?

I'd propose the following (to take effect after the first host):

1) No delays in the game except for big holidays until we get down to 6 or fewer players. This is to keep the game moving and because I can't really accommodate lots of server changes.
2) Players whose partner stales/disappears are in charge of finding replacements. I would suggest each partner gives their partner their password in case of an emergency. Players should never put their nation on AI without consulting with their partner.
3) I'll put up a post looking for a replacement EA Ermor. If we can't find one in three days we put EA Ermor on AI and Carloslib can decide if he wishes to continue or flip to AI.

If anyone objects please do so ASAP.

[Baalz]

I'd also suggest we allow partners to play both nations until a replacement can be found (or if a temp sub is needed)...not like there's any advantage and it'll help keep people from staling.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
I'd also suggest we allow partners to play both nations until a replacement can be found (or if a temp sub is needed)...not like there's any advantage and it'll help keep people from staling.



Doing so can cause CD-key conflicts and forced stales FYI. I'm not sure if it checks every turn or not, but people should be aware...

[Baalz]

It will be fine if two different nation's turns are submitted from the same computer, the problem comes if turns for different nations are submitted from different computers (IPs?) with the same cd-key. I have a friend who has taken turns from my computer in a game we were both playing and it works fine.

[archaeolept]

then they've changed it since Dominions II, as i've certainly had the forced stales when having to set a nation to AI using the master pass...

[Velusion]

Baalz - thats good to know... not sure If I'm up to test it myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif but if someone needs to they can do that.

In fact - I've sent parcelt's password (he pmed it to me) to carlosib. He can decide if he wants to do the turn or wait for a replacement.

[Baalz]

Well, I do reserve the right to be quite wrong, but it worked fine on the two turns that we did that in perpetuality.

[DrPraetorious]

I recall that weird things happened in Epic Heroes when I was doing both C'tis and.... who else was dying?

Anyway I was playing two positions at once for a brief period and I'm not sure that everything processed correctly.

But N=1 and this was PBEM, I often suspect that things weren't processed correctly when I'm only doing a single turn so who knows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[carlosib]

Well...i'm having problems connecting to the server with 3.10
But this is weird: I played the Sauromatia turn with 3.08 and it's OK. Then i try to play Ermor's turn with 3.10 (another copy of the game in a different folder this time patched) and i get this weird error were my screen turns completely red. I'm currently playing a 3.10 PBEM game and everything goes great, so i know i have the game correctly patched.
Does anyone know what may be happening?

[Velusion]

carlosib said:
Well...i'm having problems connecting to the server with 3.10
But this is weird: I played the Sauromatia turn with 3.08 and it's OK. Then i try to play Ermor's turn with 3.10 (another copy of the game in a different folder this time patched) and i get this weird error were my screen turns completely red. I'm currently playing a 3.10 PBEM game and everything goes great, so i know i have the game correctly patched.
Does anyone know what may be happening?



Its the CD-Key copyright protection apparently (looks like its hitting a number of players now).

[Thrawn]

I will post at the front that we need a sub as well...

[carlosib]

Are you sure it's the cd-key protection? cause when i got the game I was sure it was an original copy, and i had no problems playing all kinds of games in the past (even PBEM 3.10 games work great).
Anyway, if that's the problem then i cant play until i get my copy situation right...so i guess that's all for the Sauromatia-Ermor team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Feel free to find me a replacement. I'll try to find someone too. And i apologize for delaying the start of the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Velusion said:

carlosib said:
Well...i'm having problems connecting to the server with 3.10
But this is weird: I played the Sauromatia turn with 3.08 and it's OK. Then i try to play Ermor's turn with 3.10 (another copy of the game in a different folder this time patched) and i get this weird error were my screen turns completely red. I'm currently playing a 3.10 PBEM game and everything goes great, so i know i have the game correctly patched.
Does anyone know what may be happening?



Its the CD-Key copyright protection apparently (looks like its hitting a number of players now).

[Thrawn]

So, carlosib and parcelt are out for sure? If so, should we just set them to AI?

[Micah]

No, I'd really prefer not to skew the game balance by putting in 2 AI's given that it has yet to host. I vote we either find subs or get a new map with 6 starts if someone is willing to make one.

[Velusion]

I think we probably need to start over at this point.

Does everyone want a new map or shall we look for two new players? Vote now!

[Folket]

play with 6 teams

[Evilhomer]

If this game is restarting I think I will take the opportunity to withdraw. I'm already in 3 other games (that are getting micromanagement heavy) and other things are taking up my time. Sorry for the troubble this may cause.

[DrPraetorious]

I vote for me to make a new map.

I think six teams is ideal as opposed to seven.

EDIT:
Take the two people who's partners have vanished, make them one team.

Either let them pick which pair of nations they want or reassign nations for everybody.

[Thrawn]

Who are the TWO people who's partners have vanished? Carlosib and parcelt have left, but they were on the same team. Evilhomer has withdrawn, so that leaves Dedas without a partner. Has someone else withdrawn?

I think we still need one more to fill out the sixth team?

[Shovah32]

Also, DrP, no more tricking Arch into giving you a good starting spot ^_^.

[Dedas]

My partner left me, now I'm forced to walk this world alone.

[Thrawn]

Going down the only road you've ever known?

Sorry....bad music reference.

[Thrawn]

Okay, we got our sub for the last spot. OoohSnap will play Marverni with Dedas. So, we will have six teams for this game, and should be in a position to start soon!

[DrPraetorious]

Excellent. Here's a map with 12 start locations and specials.

The southeast start is stronger than the others (which is why I moved it towards the middle,) but it's not as bad as it looks to the naked eye - the provinces are not all the same size.

Anyway, take a look at let me know what you think, I'll assign start locations to the black lozenges unless anyone objects.

[Velusion]

Did you forgot to link?

[DrPraetorious]

Attachment is now there.

[Velusion]

I know I would be jealous of the SE corner if I started up north.

What about something like the attached? (my suggestions in green). I'd be happy to get anyone of those positions...

(I guess I usually take into account that bigger sized provinces usually have a higher population as well...)

[DrPraetorious]

Only issue with that setup is that the westernmost start doesn't have enough neighbors.

Simple solution, I will give it more neighbors.

I'll institute a pass through that western mountain range, and use these starts instead - let me doublecheck them in my script after adding that neighbor.

[Velusion]

DrPraetorious said:
I'll institute a pass through that western mountain range, and use these starts instead - let me doublecheck them in my script after adding that neighbor.



Good idea.

[Micah]

Nice job on the map, both of you, Vel's starts look pretty solid, and DrP came up with a nice template to work off of (along with patching in the mountain pass). So, thanks from a lazy player with no patience for map-gen =)

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, I fudged a couple of those starts over a province in one direction or another in order to give some of the others at least five land neighbors. Not a drastic shift in any case.

I also added an automatic Iron Mine in a few provinces, represented by the school of mines logo, so that all the capitals end up with roughly equal resources (it was heavily skewed in favor of the starts with more neighbors,) and I eliminated a waste province from the far west but didn't bother with other waste provinces since those starts generally have more space to grow (according to the computer which isn't fooled by appearances).

So, Velusion: assign each team to a color (Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue or Magenta) and I will put them in place.

The final version of the map is attached, this is all you will need to play - I'll send Velusion the map file after he assigns teams to colors and we can start!

[OoohSnap]

Hi,

I'll be the guy who enters last and substitutes Marverni http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Thrawn]

Hey, Snap, welcome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dedas]

Hello OoohSnap and welcome! I will answer your message as soon as I get some time from the madness that is my life.

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, Vel told me to just assign the start locations myself. Here they are:

Red - Pangaea / Arco (Velusion+Thrawn)
Yellow - Helheim and Marverni (Dedas+OoohSnap)
Green - Abysia and Yomi (Snacktime+Folket)
Cyan - Agartha and Caelum (Me+Micah)
Blue - Mictlan and C'tis (Baalz+Shovah)
Magenta - Niefelheim and Ulm (Janim+Dryaunda)

The map file is attached for your viewing pleasure.

[Velusion]

I'm practically living at work until tomorrow night. I'll start up the game then.

[DrPraetorious]

In order to avoid worring about deleting existing savedgame folders, you should probably go ahead and rename the game when you restart it.

[Velusion]

Game has been started... you can upload your gods now. My apologies about the delay... wayyy to much work these last couple days.

[Thrawn]

Awesome, can't wait. Updating front page with the latest map file.

[DrPraetorious]

Waiting for:
DryaUnda
Dedas

to upload their pretenders again. Maybe update the frontpage?

[Snacktime]

It would also help if you put the server address somewhere easy to find.

[OoohSnap]

Snacktime said:
It would also help if you put the server address somewhere easy to find.



Its in Thrawn's Opening Post.

[Velusion]

Uploaded!

[Folket]

... I did not know that everyone needed to upload. Got my god in now.

[Thrawn]

PMing Dedas and DryaUnda

[DrPraetorious]

It appears clear that Dedas is not coming back.

Do we want to try and find yet another sub for Helheim?

[Thrawn]

That sucks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I will post for a sub for Helheim. Guys, sorry about all the problems we've had starting. We'll get it going...