Grossly, insanely different PD strengths

[Lord_Bob]

For LA T'ien Ch'i, you have, per PD point below 20,
1 Footman(9 protection, no shield, decent damage)
1 Archer(9 protection and a 12 point damage Composite Bow)
1 Barbarian Horseman(with a Composite Bow AND a light lance)
40 Gold per point

For Patala, you get these(I didn't bother to figure out the numbers, because I don't CARE how many there are)
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

Now, with the Barbarian Horsemen shooting their deadly Composite Bows and then getting a lance "one shot" to anyone who reaches them, I can see how they are going to lay down some damage. I can also see how any level of semi-decent archer fire is going to rout any quantity of Patalian PD. They just cannot win against anything with arrows. ANYTHING!

[lch]

<insert comment about OP stating the obvious>

So what?

[Lord_Bob]

That's a good point. You know, 20 Indie Archers and a commander should constitute a deadly and unstoppable raiding force. I mean, how does that change anything? What effect, really, does that have on the game? So for 230 gold you can defeat 20 Patalian PD, maybe even the capital PD, with little casualities, and it would take something like 600 gold to defeat, WITH CASUALITIES, 10 PD of T'ien Ch'i. What effect does that REALLY have on the game? So Patala cannot stop raiders at all, ever. I mean REALLY, who cares. Give a necromancer a shield and have him span terror from behind an "iron wall" of 6 Heavy infrantry. Beats 20 Patalian PD like nothing. Take a 1000 gold army against any T'ien Ch'i PD, unless you want massive casualities.

How, really, could that have an effect?

[Lord_Bob]

Patala cannot win ever. So what? That's a pretty bizarre attitude.

"Use thugs for raiding"

Who needs a freaking thug against Patala? ANYTHING WILL DO. Take a commander and 10 Indy Heavy Infrantry. I'm sure they'll tear through PD like nothing. So really, it's the Indy Commander cost, and the resource cost that's the limiting factor on utterly destroying Patala.

You could freaking RAISE your raiding force FROM THE BORDER PROVINCE ITSELF. EVERY OTHER TURN IF IT'S A MOUNTAIN! Hell, with good scales, the border province itself will even provide the GOLD to create the raiding force.

[Ironhawk]

Hahaha

On a more serious note - yeah the wide differences of PD is a long discussed topic. Generally it is seen through the regular prism of dominions in that "nothing is equal". So some nations have good PD, and others have crap. Just like some nations have good troops and others have crap. Its the way of dominions.

So, if you know your nation has crap for PD, you just dont invest in or rely on it.

[Lord_Bob]

You need a certain minimium strength to stop very weak raiders. Patala doesn't have that minimium.

[Cheezeninja]

"Patala cannot win ever."

That's just going to get you laughed at brosef.

[konming]

While PD is not supposed to be balanced, losing 20 PD to 8 Agartha (normal) infantris and 2 indy archers turn after turn is something else. What's more, they did not even get a scratch, literally. For some reason, my entire PD starts to run as soon as one or two small monkeys are killed. I have given up on Patala PDs.

[Lord_Bob]

The little monkeys have a morale of 7.

Since they count "equally" towards the "75% route and everyone routes" rule, if the little monkeys route, everyone routes.

[Lord_Bob]

Actually, my full statement is now that Patala, Bandar Log, and Kailasa can NEVER EVER WIN in a non-rush game.

It's supported by the MP results at the top of the Multi-Player forum.

[sum1lost]

By this argument, Tir, Man, Eriu, caelum, machaka, and EA MICTLAN are weak nations. Somehow, I don't think that they are all that weak.

Tip:

When using data like this for evidence, it helps if you have a sample size larger than the possible results.

[Zylithan]

well, EA mictlan has awesome PD above 20. I guess that's a little extreme, but I'm just saying... you get a (usually) double blessed jaguar warrior every point.

below 20 i reckon not so impressive though

[Lord_Bob]

Are you actually claiming 20 Archers and a Commander can defeat a Man PD of 20 without casualities?

I'm sorry, your just gabbering now, and I can't take it seriously. When I took over a hopelessly bungled MA Man in some massive game, EA Ermor tried to waste me TWICE with armies of over 400 men. He has lost over 200 men and 6 mages. All to 65 PD and my research mages backed by 90 longbowman. Now 65 PD is quite high, but we aren't talking about 20 archers and a commander either. We are talking about 400 high quality soldiers and more than 6 mages assisting. That is an ARMY.

[lch]

Lord_Bob said:
Actually, my full statement is now that Patala, Bandar Log, and Kailasa can NEVER EVER WIN in a non-rush game.


I didn't rush. Patala and Kailasa aswell, I think, are one of the few nations where the mages can forge Clams out of the box. With Patala in perticular, every damn mage you have can forge Clams as soon as you get the Forge of the Ancients up. This is just one of the points where they rule in late game.

[thejeff]

Lord_Bob said:
Are you actually claiming 20 Archers and a Commander can defeat a Man PD of 20 without casualities?



No. Different claim.

None of those nations has won any of the MP games listed in the MP forum post you're using as evidence.

Nor has any age of Atlantis or Arcosephale.

[Wikd Thots]

The PD is not supposed to be balanced. Each nation has good and bad, and for some of them thats their PD

[sum1lost]

Lord_Bob said:
Are you actually claiming 20 Archers and a Commander can defeat a Man PD of 20 without casualities?

I'm sorry, your just gabbering now, and I can't take it seriously. When I took over a hopelessly bungled MA Man in some massive game, EA Ermor tried to waste me TWICE with armies of over 400 men. He has lost over 200 men and 6 mages. All to 65 PD and my research mages backed by 90 longbowman. Now 65 PD is quite high, but we aren't talking about 20 archers and a commander either. We are talking about 400 high quality soldiers and more than 6 mages assisting. That is an ARMY.



Okay, there is no way you are this stupid in rl. You've got to be trolling.

[OmikronWarrior]

In general, its understood that PD is going to be different levels for different players. Honestly, I think EA Neifleheim has it even worse. The "leveler", if you will, is that no nation's PD can stop an actual army except by extreme inefficiency in its application. The trick is to keep your own armies behind enemy lines and quickly take back raided provinces while patrolling choke and border points to catch incoming raiders. If you really feel this is to great a burden, then play a different nation. It really is that simple.

[Huzurdaddi]

Ironhawk said:
So some nations have good PD, and others have crap. Just like some nations have good troops and others have crap.



Is it really true that some nations have 'crap' troops? I don't know about that. Clearly some nations have excellent troops: some through potent sacreds, some through tramplers, and maybe some through martial skill (longbow/principe?).

Are there really nations that have through and through 'crap' troops?

[Lord_Bob]

In general, its understood that PD is going to be different levels for different players. Honestly, I think EA Neifleheim has it even worse. The "leveler", if you will, is that no nation's PD can stop an actual army except by extreme inefficiency in its application. The trick is to keep your own armies behind enemy lines and quickly take back raided provinces while patrolling choke and border points to catch incoming raiders. If you really feel this is to great a burden, then play a different nation. It really is that simple.



EA Neifleheim gets a Jarl at 20. So I certainly hope you are joking. You are joking, right?

[OmikronWarrior]

A Jotun Jarl, not a Neifleheim Jarl, and 10 militias with poor protection, attack, defense, and morale. 20 PD for 10 units that really aren't all that better than human militia. A competent raiding force will route the militia and the jarl with it before he can be the least bit effective.

[Valandil]

Not another thread like this...

Right. Markatas are lame (actually, markata's are the most cost-effective unit in the game, as detailed in the other thread...) and monkey nations have markatas as PD. Who cares? Bandar log also has amoung the best summons in the game, decent mages, good sacreds, decent archers, and elephants. Nations are not made up of PD alone, thank the gods.

MP results are a nonissue, since several naitons (20ish) have never won an MP game. Normal distribution dictates that until we have (significantly) more results than nations, they are statistically meaningless (oversimplifying, I know.)

Also, Bandar Log has reasonable antiraider potential, with several remote attacks, teleporting mages, flying summons, and PD that actually stops call of the winds.

[lch]

Valandil said:
Not another thread like this...


This is the thread that started it all. Legends will emerge about this thread, bards will write poems about it. The other one was just an attempt to get past 100 posts in one day in a tour de force.

[Lord_Bob]

I thought the Giants were 30 gold. It turns out they are 20 gold giant militia. Yes, they do suck. Yes, Niefielim PD is bad and yet Niefielim has registered a win in EA. Of course, they also have uber-sacreds.

[Lingchih]

Niefelheim PD is very bad. I never rely on them. Throw a 5 in there, and send some Jarls in if you really need to defend it.

PD is certainly very different depending on the nation. I really like Pangaea's PD. They have those Harpies that go in early, and tie everyone up for a turn or two. They all die or rout, but it gives your other troops/commanders time to form up and cast spells.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Pangageas PD is like free casts of swarm every battle.

[Lord_Bob]

By this argument, Tir, Man, Eriu, caelum, machaka, and EA MICTLAN are weak nations. Somehow, I don't think that they are all that weak.



This is an example of the "lower standard" of reasoning to which proving me wrong is held. Mictlan has quite acceptable PD. It has 3 Warriors per point. Each Warrior has decent morale and a hide shield to stop arrows. They also have a tribal king to Sermon Of Courage them. Sure, they can be beaten up by heavy infrantry, but they won't route easy and you'll have to kill most of the 60 to do it. Worse, after 20 they get Jaguar Warriors. In a typical game these Jaguar Warrior are Dual Blessed and will kill more than their number in heavy infrantry. Their counter, archers, work very poorly versuses Hide Shielded Mictlan Warrior.

Mictlan PD starts out "ok" and then goes to "frightenly deadly".

The statement that the Machaka are considered a "weak nation" is correct. In fact, it is held by most of the people reading the board. Including those who disagree with me. Another player even made a point of mentioning how bad Machaka PD is. So yes, quite, they are considered weak.

Caleum is able to dispatch flying attackers to retake any captured province from a central location. One of these forces can protect 15 or more provinces with three movement. A nation that doesn't have to have an army "adjacent" to the captured province to attack and retake it obviously has a nice advantage in retaking provinces. Also, the speed with which Caleum can move forces around make large scale raids very hard... without defeating their army first. Nations of Fliers are a poor comparison.

MA Man PD is poor, better by far than Monkey PD, but poor. Of course they also get a Bard, an actual spellcaster who can cast a morale booster before battle and nature spells throughout. But yes, MA Man PD is weak. Score one point. They also have not won a single game, but I believe that is because they completely lack magic diversity.

The other nations are new, and I'm not going to create a game just to check them.

[Valandil]

You are missinterpeting, hopefully in ignorance, that argument. Those nations have not yet won an MP game, hence invalidating your 'appeal to statistics' contention. As thejeff has already stated:
"Quote:
Lord_Bob said:
Are you actually claiming 20 Archers and a Commander can defeat a Man PD of 20 without casualities?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Different claim.

None of those nations has won any of the MP games listed in the MP forum post you're using as evidence.

Nor has any age of Atlantis or Arcosephale."

[NTJedi]

Lord_Bob said:
Another player even made a point of mentioning how bad Machaka PD is. So yes, quite, they are considered weak.




During DOM_2 I originally enjoyed Machaka, but the weakest PD is more noticeably painful on my favorite type of maps(LARGE). Today I still joke that Machaka PD can be killed with tennis balls.
One benefit of these discussions on PD has made me realize DOM_4 should allow gamers a way to upgrade the PD via one or more of the following research, gold/gems, new -/+scale, building type, etc. This would add another layer of depth for gamers.

[llamabeast]

I don't think Machaka is a weak nation. I like them. Also I've won an MP game using Man (although I didn't bother to submit it to the Victorious Nations thread since it was only a 4-player game).

[NTJedi]

llamabeast said:
I don't think Machaka is a weak nation.



Machaka is okay probably categorized as below average, but their PD has been agreed by many to be the weakest in the game. Did I mention their PD dies from tennis balls?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[llamabeast]

But they have awesome battle magic and powerful hoplites and spiders. I agree their PD is quite poor.

[Lord_Bob]

Man also has stealth units, Wardens of Avalon. These are very tough, and go along way to Raiding/Counter-Raiding.

So the situation is "the same" except that Man PD is stronger and they have Raider/Counter-Raiding units.

Did you have a bless on your Wardens?

The Monkey's have Atavi. Atavi with a Protection of 1 DO NOT go a long way to fixing the problem.

If Markata were given stealth, this would fix the problem. Actually.

[thejeff]

You're, again, completely missing the point of bring up Man.

It has nothing to do with Man's PD or Man's raiding ability.

Man and the monkey nations are the same in and only in that neither has won a MP game here.

[Tichy]

But everybody knows that if you put Markatas together in groups they get all chatty and excited and start grooming each other, gossiping, losing their cute little bows and rooting for the losing team. Charming, yes. Stealthy?

[Agema]

I don't really get this. Some nations have clearly inferior mages. Some have clearly inferior sacreds. Some have clearly inferior summons. Why is PD such an issue?

[Valandil]

It isn't, except to about... oh... one person?

[Sombre]

Because to that one person only PD matters (apart from anti PD raiders, apparently). He has his crusade and he'll rant on and on about it to no-one in particular making foolish statements like "such and such can never win" or "with 65 pd such and such is unbeatable". All the while ignoring or misinterpreting any valid objections raised and failing to realise everyone already accepts that monkey PD is a bit rubbish.

[lch]

Sombre said:
All the while ignoring or misinterpreting any valid objections raised and failing to realise everyone already accepts that monkey PD is a bit rubbish.


Well, ... it's monkeys. What did you expect? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Humakty]

They can desease their foes by throwing some dejections at them. It should also impact their ennemies morale !

More seriously, a chimp can kill a well prepared human with it's bare hands, so I think the lowish monkeys should be a bit stronger. It wouldn't change much their PD anyway, as going to battle bare chested (and without shields) is a call for an arrow.

Has anyone done some testing so we can elect the worst PD of Dom3? I think of giants, machaka and monkeys fighting each other for the first place.

Now we have our Don Quichotte, we would need some sort of Pansa to restrain him.

[Archonsod]

Quite frankly, if PD ever succeeds against a human player I think it says more about the attacking player than the defending nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously, a well scripted mage should be capable of burning through any reasonable amount of PD in short order, unless you're investing silly money into the PD. Even then, your relying on the chance of the mage either KO'ing himself with fatigue or simply lacking mass destruction spells to deal with the number of targets.

Oh, and sacred PD is only good if the AI happens to choose bless rather than holy avenger or similar.

[Maraxus]

Because with some nations with very weak provincial defence you can't really see their strengthes in any other area, maybe.

I think Fomoria tops it:

-The provincial defence can not hit anything, has no protection or defence and a moral so absoluely horrible that it will rout the whole army.
-At the same time, the only good researcher/Ritualist is capital only. (and still no better then average compared with other nations)
-The only good unit is capital only.


And seriously, Banda Log is another good point. The provincial defence is sooo bad, comparing it to a good average is like comparing the sacret units of MA Ulm and MA Vanheim.
Problem is, that a sacret strategy is optional - Provincial defence is something you need no matter what strategy you are going.

[Archonsod]

Not really. I never bother with PD for Caelum (no point, Caelum's troops need scripting to be any use), and it's rare I put in more than four or five PD with most nations.
For those wondering, I find it more effective than the traditional 20 PD for putting off players looking for an easy victim. Just make sure they think the cash you've saved has went on your army instead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nations with good PD, such as EA Abyssia, tend to use it more because it can do a decent job. This can be a disadvantage as much as an advantage though - a couple of times I've foolishly invested in PD when actual troops would have been a better use of gold.

[Lord_Bob]

Caleum fliers are capable of rapidly countering such raids with their flying armies/mages. Stealth nations can "surprise and destroy" such armies. Also, they are capable of equal raids against normal PD with their stealth units, so it balances.

You not "needing" good PD because the enemy does not raid weakly is like saying the enemy didn't press the "I win!" button because there was no "I win!" button. A truism, yes, but not very important. If you have good PD, then stupid weak raids work as a surprise tactic exactly once. Then they stop working. It's not exactly surprising that your opponent doesn't build a strategy around something that doesn't work against you.

[Sombre]

Uh,.. if a single stupid weak raid makes you go all nuts on PD and build 20 in every province because OMG 30 GOLD PER POINT, it already worked.

[Tichy]

In MP, I find that strong PD nations actually make the strategic decision more complicated. (Granted this is on the basis of having played exactly 3.5 MP games: Perpetuality = 1.5). If you know your PD is trash don't use it. Plop down PD 1 so scouts can't raid you and ignore the rest. But if you have good PD you have to decide whether or not to invest in it.

TC PD11 can stop most random event indy raids, for example. Prevents some income loss and diverting forces to retake provinces, but at the cost of a less mobile army.

But even here, the strategic decision never thinks PD v Human Opponent.

[KissBlade]

If you don't even build a SINGLE point of PD, you will lose to any player worth his salt. Guaranteed. Qm and I have shown many newbier players to at least sink a point or risk losing provinces to a scout.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Maraxus said:
Because with some nations with very weak provincial defence you can't really see their strengthes in any other area, maybe.

I think Fomoria tops it:

-The provincial defence can not hit anything, has no protection or defence and a moral so absoluely horrible that it will rout the whole army.
-At the same time, the only good researcher/Ritualist is capital only. (and still no better then average compared with other nations)
-The only good unit is capital only.





As a slight but temporary hijack, I'd like to have you stop by the Fomoria thread I created.

I can't really disagree with the bulk of your post, and neither would I want to, but I'd like to discuss a few things with you before I decide whether to try them out in multiplayer. I don't have much experience with multiplayer- though I'm working on that continuously.

1). The only good unit is capital only? Certainly, unmarked troops and the giants and those nice nemedians are capital only, but are Fomorian Warriors just as bad? From their flavor it seems like they'd have a lower rate of afflictions. As well, unmarked champions are available everywhere as thugs. Certainly not Neifel Jarl or Dai Oni class, but do you consider those 'not good' as well? And while the Fir Bolg have several problems (helmet, anyone?) they seem solid with above average humanoid stats. I've had quite some success taking out indies with them, and I expect they'd be of some use against human nations.

2). I am rather appalled with their mages, though I do see some possibilities with Thunder Bow spam on the druids.

[KissBlade]

Fomorian troops aren't bad. Their javelins are pretty kick *** considering how cheap and survivable they are.

[NTJedi]

KissBlade said:
If you don't even build a SINGLE point of PD, you will lose to any player worth his salt. Guaranteed. Qm and I have shown many newbier players to at least sink a point or risk losing provinces to a scout.



Some nations have mages as part of their PD... for example one nation has 1air and 1holy horsemen as commanders. As a result 3 rounds of combat with two of these PD mages usually results in 6 phantasmal warriors or banishing undead! Other nations have regular stand behind (do_nothing) commanders.

I don't mind seeing some nations with weaker PD, but hopefully DOM_4 will allow pretenders different options for upgrading existing PD such as improving the type of weapons being used, type of shields being used, and type of armor being worn, etc.

[KissBlade]

NTJedi said:

KissBlade said:
If you don't even build a SINGLE point of PD, you will lose to any player worth his salt. Guaranteed. Qm and I have shown many newbier players to at least sink a point or risk losing provinces to a scout.



Some nations have mages as part of their PD... for example one nation has 1air and 1holy horsemen as commanders. As a result 3 rounds of combat with two of these PD mages usually results in 6 phantasmal warriors or banishing undead! Other nations have regular stand behind (do_nothing) commanders.

I don't mind seeing some nations with weaker PD, but hopefully DOM_4 will allow pretenders different options for upgrading existing PD such as improving the type of weapons being used, type of shields being used, and type of armor being worn, etc.



I am so confused as to why you quoted me... o_O?

[Archonsod]

Lord_Bob said:
It's not exactly surprising that your opponent doesn't build a strategy around something that doesn't work against you.


Yes, but at the same time it's foolish to build a strategy based on something which simply does not work for your nation, such as relying on sub-par PD alone to discourage raiding. As you're recent game shows, Bandar can go far simply by stationing a spare mage or similar unit in a province, and enjoy watching them obliterate would be raiders while the raiders themselves waste time and energy trying to deal with a horde of monkeys.



If you don't even build a SINGLE point of PD, you will lose to any player worth his salt. Guaranteed. Qm and I have shown many newbier players to at least sink a point or risk losing provinces to a scout.



Only a problem if I was hoping said provinces would remain mine for long, or generally wasn't expecting a scout to take them. If I'm following a scorched Earth policy, then any province I don't have an army in is going to have literally been bled dry already, thus losing it is matterless to me and does nothing for you (depending on scales, it could actually be a liability). Like most things in the game, it's a question of which strategy you adopt, sometimes losing a province can be devestating, sometimes you won't notice, and sometimes it can even be intentional.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It would help if size of the units is taken into conideration when determining auto army routing. Then 2 markatas would count as one regular sized unit routing, and then the rest of the army would be less likely to route when the markatas do. That would make the army routing more logical. Giants woudn't care if all the goblins ran, nearly as much as goblins would care if the Jotuns ran.

[Lord_Bob]

In my ideal world
Units should simply count to routing by size. A size 1 unit contributes one point. A size 6 unit contributes 6 points. Not exact, no, but simple, understandable, and it fixes the largest distortions.

PD should be made stronger, but nations should be limited to buying only 20 points per turn per province. A nation should not be able to drop 1200 gold into a province the turn after they take it in preparation for the counter attack. Does it make any logical sense at all that T'ien Ch'i can boost it's main army by 1300 gold in one turn by spending 450 gold on PD? PD being used for what it is meant to be used for will work just fine at 20 a point limit per turn. If someone wants to play games, they can easily buy 10 in all their provinces and then REALLY boost it in a single turn to 30.

PD should be given the "home province" morale bonus. Obviously, they are in their home province.
OR
*PD can be given a special "milita" morale penalty of -1 and then made stronger to compensate. This represents cheap troops that either win easily, or bolt.*

Since the point of PD is to stop small attacks, not build "uber-armies", then the level 20 troops should be present from level 1 and players should recieve half of them per point. Programatically, set PD 20 to zero, except the commander, and put in half at PD-1.

[NTJedi]

Lord_Bob said:
PD should be made stronger, but nations should be limited to buying only 20 points per turn per province. A nation should not be able to drop 1200 gold into a province the turn after they take it in preparation for the counter attack. Does it make any logical sense at all that T'ien Ch'i can boost it's main army by 1300 gold in one turn by spending 450 gold on PD? PD being used for what it is meant to be used for will work just fine at 20 a point limit per turn. If someone wants to play games, they can easily buy 10 in all their provinces and then REALLY boost it in a single turn to 30.

PD should be given the "home province" morale bonus. Obviously, they are in their home province.
OR
*PD can be given a special "milita" morale penalty of -1 and then made stronger to compensate. This represents cheap troops that either win easily, or bolt.*

Since the point of PD is to stop small attacks, not build "uber-armies", then the level 20 troops should be present from level 1 and players should recieve half of them per point. Programatically, set PD 20 to zero, except the commander, and put in half at PD-1.



Unfortunately I doubt we'll be seeing any changes/updates to PD within DOM_3. The DOM_3 game still has Red Major Bugs which existed at the original base version and the developers haven't been around lately so they're probably working on their next project. If major bugs are not even being fixed which have been around since the games original release I'm not sure if we can even hope for PD balancing.
I'd say your best hope would be if the developers provided new PD options within DOM_4... such as another +/- scale specific for PD or upgrade options for PD. If the developers enjoyed the money profits from DOM_3 then we'll most likely see a DOM_4.

[Boron]

NTJedi said:
Unfortunately I doubt we'll be seeing any changes/updates to PD within DOM_3. The DOM_3 game still has Red Major Bugs which existed at the original base version and the developers haven't been around lately so they're probably working on their next project. If major bugs are not even being fixed which have been around since the games original release I'm not sure if we can even hope for PD balancing.



Which major bugs does Dom3 have?
In earlier versions there has been the game breaking bug with the phantasmal warriors global, but that bug has been fixed.
Apart from that one i can't think of any bug Dom3 3.10 has that i would subscribe as Red Major Bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[lch]

Limitations for modding, couple of spells are (still?) broken and there are bugs that aren't on the lists, officially. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lord_Bob]

"Ideal" Monkey PD:
The Number 1 problem is that the Markata and Atavi archers kill more of their own Melee Markata than enemy troops. This can be fixed easily. Make PD only Melee Markata. Six of them per point. At 20 PD, they an extra 3 Melee Markata and a Naga King to cast Sermon of Courage and various spells.

At that point, without mages to spam damage spells, any mortal troops will fear the wrath of the Markata!

At 20 PD there are 120 Melee Markata swarming the enemy troops in a vast wave of little monkey death!

[The Melee Markata routing causing everyone else to route isn't a problem because there are only Melee Markata. Thus when they route, well, the army has already routed. But this will be harder than most people think, without Markata arrows and Atavi arrows killing them.]

[Valandil]

FYI, PD at 125 would have:

20(6)+105(9) = 1065 Markatas!

You could put a PD 30 (210 Markatas) province in front of an enemy thug or sc, and then VotD them a few times.

[Sir_Dr_D]

You better VotD them. All those poor monkeys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[NTJedi]

Boron said:

NTJedi said:
Unfortunately I doubt we'll be seeing any changes/updates to PD within DOM_3. The DOM_3 game still has Red Major Bugs which existed at the original base version and the developers haven't been around lately so they're probably working on their next project. If major bugs are not even being fixed which have been around since the games original release I'm not sure if we can even hope for PD balancing.



Which major bugs does Dom3 have?
In earlier versions there has been the game breaking bug with the phantasmal warriors global, but that bug has been fixed.
Apart from that one i can't think of any bug Dom3 3.10 has that i would subscribe as Red Major Bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



Check the bug thread... Major Bugs are listed in <font color="red">RED </font> . As mentioned earlier most of these major bugs have existed since the initial game release.

[Sombre]

You want an example of a MAJOR bug that isn't fixed? How about building extras temples not increasing your dom strength for the purposes of spread checks?

[llamabeast]

Well, that's hardly a serious bug, it's just as if the game had an entirely reasonable alternative rule. It's just unfortunate that the manual doesn't match up with the implementation.

[Sombre]

I think in a game called Dominions a major dominion mechanic not working properly is pretty serious. Far more serious than a spell or unit not working. But you're right, you can still play the game. I suppose it doesn't quality as a must fix in that respect.

Another fairly big one, but not major, would be cave provinces not casting darkness.

[Boron]

NTJedi said:
Check the bug thread... Major Bugs are listed in <font color="red">RED </font> . As mentioned earlier most of these major bugs have existed since the initial game release.


Oops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif. Seems i make a bad propaganda minister http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[HoneyBadger]

I think the solution to the monkey PD problem is to create a mod that gives them a huge killer ape named Kong as the extra 20+ PD leader.

[lch]

I vote for a three-headed monkey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gregstrom]

Monkey pirates!

[Lord_Bob]

Or maybe I could get something that doesn't rout when four archers attack it. Oh, wait, they also had an idie commander.

Well that explains it.

[Sombre]

I'm having real trouble beating monkey PD. If only someone could tell me what kind of force beats it, over and over again.

[Lord_Bob]

10 Heavy Infrantry+Indie Commander vs 20 PD
6 Heavy Infrantry+8 Archers+Indie Commander vs 20 PD
8 guys with tower shields/decent armour vs 20 PD
12 Castle Archers(10 morale) vs 20 PD

This is without proper battle locations.

But with luck, just about anything can beat monkey PD.

[Morkilus]

Look, it's Monkey PD!

http://www.toydirectory.com/monthly/ToyShowImges/HGG-7584.jpg

[RedWurm]

I'm starting to get the impression that the monkey PD isn't fantastic. While it would be lovely if all the races had the option of employing as broad a range of strategies as possible, unless someone can be bothered to write a mod that makes every nation completely identical, it's not going to happen. For example, I had to stop relying on my flying units when playing as Ulm because I didn't have any.

To be fair, I don't like playing the monkey nations much. I like missile troops, but prefer ones that don't die messily at the first sign of enemy missile fire, direct sunlight or harsh language. Or, apparently, tennis balls (I seem to have missed that particular evocation spell, is it a national one?). I don't play them because they don't suit my style of play (a masterful combination of irrational unit choices, a short attention span and, by necessity, good defense), but I suppose I may be a little biased as well.

[HJFudge]

Morkilus wins the thread.

[Chris_Byler]

Look, if Lord_Bob (or anyone else for that matter) wants to make a PD Rebalance mod, and claim that it improves overall game balance, then we'd have something concrete to discuss; and if the player community agreed that more equal PD strengths improved the game overall, it'd stand a decent chance of being incorporated into CB or even a future patch.

But as long as there is nothing but complaint with no attempt to fix the situation (for a moddable problem), there's really not much to discuss.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Morkilus , I think that your monkey PD is overly powerfull. It looks like it has a high awe ability, and no one will be able to strike it.

[Lord_Bob]

There isn't much point in making a mod, if people won't use it.

Let's see if I can explain this to you, Chris.

A.I find a problem and tell people.
B.They agree it's a problem that needs a solution.
C.I THEN spend the large amount of time to make a mod.
D.Since there is agreement about the problem, people then use the mod I made. So I have not wasted my time.

Following, Chris?

Have you spent large amounts of time on projects that nobody uses, Chris? Judging from your attitude, I have to believe that's the case, Chris.

[Lord_Bob]

I conquered T'ien Ch'i's capital a few turns ago. I'm still scared to send my main army into any of the provinces, because if I guess wrong and he has pumped the PD up, my main army, after the losses taking the capital, can't beat 50-60 T'ien Ch'i PD. In case you're wondering, that's:
50 Footmen
50 Composite Bow Archers
50 Light Horse with Composite Bow and Light Lance
30 Heavy Calvary with Composite Bow and Lance

I finally decided I have to rebuild my army and send mages into battle.... to take every single province. Either that or I risk the loss of my main army for no reason.

Note how I said I have to send my MAIN ARMY into every province.

And I need most of that main army guarding the provinces that he could raid, since my PD can't reliably stop four archers.

[Sombre]

Or you could use a single scout to attack the provinces with orders to retreat and find out which he's put PD in. You don't have to go "Oh a guessing game, I lose by default" - he has to guess where your army is going, so actually he's at a disadvantage in this particular guessing game because PD can't move.

[Edi]

Lord_Bob said:
There isn't much point in making a mod, if people won't use it.

Let's see if I can explain this to you, Chris.

A.I find a problem and tell people.
B.They agree it's a problem that needs a solution.
C.I THEN spend the large amount of time to make a mod.
D.Since there is agreement about the problem, people then use the mod I made. So I have not wasted my time.

Following, Chris?

Have you spent large amounts of time on projects that nobody uses, Chris? Judging from your attitude, I have to believe that's the case, Chris.


You can cut the condescending tone right now. Since judging by the tone of the replies I got you apparently cannot understand a clear, plain text warning sent by PM, I will now warn you in public that you will either stop trolling or you will be reap the consequences. That's two warnings now, just so it's clear to everyone.

I've also been given to understand by another mod that you feel like you are being persecuted and that we are out to get you so that you can be "deleted". I was also given to understand that you had indicated a willingness to try to force things to that point. If that's indeed your tack here, it is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, since this community has absolutely no use at all for people who troll and disrupt the forums on purpose. We do NOT want to ban people, but we will if we have to, though that is always an administrative decision, not one made by mere moderators.

This topic is looking more and more like it's going to be just people beating on a dead horse, and if it does come to that, it's going to be locked. I'm not going to shut this thread down yet, though. I hope the discussion will go forward in a more productive vein.

[Lord_Bob]

I've also been given to understand by another mod that you feel like you are being persecuted and that we are out to get you so that you can be "deleted". I was also given to understand that you had indicated a willingness to try to force things to that point. If that's indeed your tack here, it is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, since this community has absolutely no use at all for people who troll and disrupt the forums on purpose. We do NOT want to ban people, but we will if we have to, though that is always an administrative decision, not one made by mere moderators.



Since you have access to what I wrote, why don't you quote it? I give you full permission. I think that would make my "persecution complex" quite clear to everyone. So go ahead.

Specifically, the fact that Jazzepi thought it was okay to tell me to "Die in a river" for no reason at all. He knew you would be okay with this, because, you are, aren't you?

Oh, and Chris_Byler was being deliberately rude to. You just have 100% tolerance for certain people who get to run around and get in everyone elses face. That's the way most message boards are run, so I don't expect any better from you.

[llamabeast]

Chris_Byler wasn't being deliberately rude. It's just that we've all heard what you think many times, and think that there are two options from there:

1) Do nothing, since only a small fraction of the community agrees with you.
2) Make a mod that you, and those that agree with you, can use. It actually would not take very long - maybe half an hour. Certainly less time than all this posting has taken.

Further posting on the subject will not change anyone's opinions. We have all read your opinions, initially with interest, and then later with growing frustration as it became apparent that you were not taking other people's opinions on board or reading their posts properly. It also goes against forum etiquette to make so very many posts on the same issue. There is a good reason for this - if everyone (or even two or three more people) did it then the whole board would break down in a mire of pointless discussions.

I have to say I find your posts on other topics to be quite good. You just seem to have gone a bit wild on this one.

[Shuma]

Lord_Bob said:

A.I find a problem and tell people.
B.They agree it's a problem that needs a solution.
C.I THEN spend the large amount of time to make a mod.
D.Since there is agreement about the problem, people then use the mod I made. So I have not wasted my time.





Step B here clearly has not happened.

[llamabeast]

I think that was his point. That's why he has to keep on telling us until we agree.

[lch]

<font color="#5bebe5">Post deleted for violation of forum rules ~Edi</font>

[Edi]

Lord_Bob said:
Since you have access to what I wrote, why don't you quote it? I give you full permission. I think that would make my "persecution complex" quite clear to everyone. So go ahead.


I do not actually have access to direct quotes, I only have access to the impression another moderator expressed without directly quoting you. I thought that was obvious from my phrasing.


Lord_Bob said:
Specifically, the fact that Jazzepi thought it was okay to tell me to "Die in a river" for no reason at all. He knew you would be okay with this, because, you are, aren't you?


I actually managed to miss that one, since both this thread and the other multipage one are as big as they are. No, I'm not okay with what he said and he should not have done that. Frustrated as he might be with you, there was no call for him to say such a thing.


Lord_Bob said:
Oh, and Chris_Byler was being deliberately rude to.


I'd really like to know how Chris was being rude to you. He, like many others, are frustrated with how you have acted with regard to the PD issue, so he did not perhaps bother to coach his post in the most flowery language, but his core message is NOT rude.

It is a suggestion to make a PD mod to test out what would be useful, if you can improve things and see where it goes. Demand for such things is not guaranteed, but without trying, such things don't get made. Often when people have an issue with some aspect of the game, they see if they can mod it more to their liking. The CBM (Complete Balance Mod) is one example that adjusts nearly everything in the game.

The Better Independents mod is another one, I got tired and frustrated with always fighting the same nameless, faceless AI hordes composed of indie archers, militia, light infantry and barbarians with maybe 1% national troops mixed in and rarely any of the good quality independents. Sombre came up with the concept of No Independents (NI) maps due to a modding fluke, but I wanted a somewhat different solution, so I tried my hand at it and posted it here in case somebody else was also interested. I do not know just how popular it is, but I made it anyway without having any guarantees.

Chris's suggestion is very much along the same lines, but obviously laced with his frustration, which is fairly understandable.


Lord_Bob said:
You just have 100% tolerance for certain people who get to run around and get in everyone elses face. That's the way most message boards are run, so I don't expect any better from you.


I'd really like to see the evidence for the claim that I play favorites and abuse my power as a moderator. There are few things I like less than being baselessly accused of abuse of power. I can also assure you that any moderator here who does take it to his head to abuse users and his position as a moderator is not going to remain a moderator for very long. The administrators of the forum have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for that sort of behavior and will throw such miscreants unceremoniously out on their arse. If you have any such evidence of wrongdoing on my part, please present it to Mindi and Annette so they can resolve the issue. If you're correct, they'll present you with my hide in a suitably singed condition.

My main function here is maintaining the bug shortlist stickied to the top of the forum and the other moderation duties are incidental. It may look like I jump in every thread since I generally have something to say about how the mechanics of Dominions 3 work because I know them pretty well, but actual moderating of user actions, that's rare. I do not particularly like doing it, but I will if the situation calls for it. These PD threads have caused a situation that calls for it. It should say something that Ich and Sombre, who are generally the models of patience with new people, have seriously considered putting you on an ignore list or already done so. They're some of the last people I'd have expected to do that.

In any case, I hope that this response can help you see just how this whole issue has developed and where it stands right now. As llamabeast said, you have fine posts on other topics but this PD issue sends you into a frenzy for some reason.

[Edi]

Ich, please do not fan the flames any further. If you do not have anything to add but more gasoline to an already burning blaze, stay silent. This whole issue is already enough of a cluster**** that it doesn't need more crap.

Vendettas in general are bad for the forum, so kindly do not pursue them. That goes for everyone else as well.

[Lord_Bob]

I'm not being paid to post here.

If others want to tell me to "Die in a river" or talk to me in an extremely condescending manner, like Chris_Byler, then that's fine. I can generally get them to leave me alone after a few responses. However, I have no reason to sit down and allow people to verbally attack me because "Edi won't let you respond".

Of course, you could say "Chris_Bylers message made sense", but then we would be left with the puzzling lack of a response to my reply to his "message". The "message" was nothing more than the tone a boss uses to humilate an employee that he can fire. I am not Chris_Byler's employee, therefore I don't have to act like one.

[Edi]

Lord_Bob said:
I'm not being paid to post here.


Neither am I. I did not actually even ask for a mod position, but I could not in good conscience refuse after the stink I'd made about the state of the bug reporting management when that came about. I do this all in my free time, which I could just as well use on otehr staff. Same goes for all of the other mods. The only people who do get oaid are the ones whose name appears in white.


Lord_Bob said:
If others want to tell me to "Die in a river" or talk to me in an extremely condescending manner, like Chris_Byler, then that's fine. I can generally get them to leave me alone after a few responses. However, I have no reason to sit down and allow people to verbally attack me because "Edi won't let you respond".


If you intend to start a flamewar here, I'm going to shut this thread down very shortly. As you may or may not have noticed, I just shut down a post of Ich's precisely because of that. As I said, I did not see Jazzepi's comment and therefore took no action on it at the time. I have yet to see how Chris Byler was being "extremely condescending" as per your words. You have the right to respond, but not to start flaming and trolling.


Lord_Bob said:
Of course, you could say "Chris_Bylers message made sense", but then we would be left with the puzzling lack of a response to my reply to his "message". The "message" was nothing more than the tone a boss uses to humilate an employee that he can fire. I am not Chris_Byler's employee, therefore I don't have to act like one.


You're reading more into his post than was there. See my above post for the reasons.

[Lord_Bob]

I do not actually have access to direct quotes, I only have access to the impression another moderator expressed without directly quoting you. I thought that was obvious from my phrasing.



Your friend can't give them to you? That's very, very strange. I guess we're just stuck with your interpretation of your friends interpretation of my written and saved words. Normally, this would work better if I had said something, unless I had a taperecorder.



I actually managed to miss that one, since both this thread and the other multipage one are as big as they are. No, I'm not okay with what he said and he should not have done that. Frustrated as he might be with you, there was no call for him to say such a thing.



It wasn't on these two/three threads. It was, however, in my letter to your friend. So apparently your hearsay is about the quality one would expect. Is spreading rumours about people rude? Probably not.



I'd really like to know how Chris was being rude to you.



The most impossible thing in the world is explaining something to someone who doesn't want to understand. But I'm quite certain that if someone talked to you in that way, you would understand immediately.



I'd really like to see the evidence for the claim that I play favorites and abuse my power as a moderator



People like Jazzepi just don't wake up one day and say "I'll go tell some random newbie, who wasn't even really talking to me, to Die In A River". People like Dedas don't immediately go running to the moderators every time someone says something "mean to Jazzepi". They start out being a little rude, and it's tolerated. Then they get worse, and worse. From the level of nastiness Jazzepi has managed to reach, well, ok, it's not that surprising. I'm talking things up. Pretty standard for a message board. Still, yeah, that kind of behaviour is a pretty dead giveaway. Dedas was totally confident that I'd be put in my place and Jazzepi would be just fine.

Dedas's confidence is my confidence that things are exactly the way I thought. He took off straight for Teacher. Wonderful product of Public Education.

[Edi]

Very well. Since you actually refuse to listen to anything I say in its entirety and insist on twisting things out of context to try to make them look better for yourself when the whole goddamn exchange is public for everyone to see, there is no point in discussing this issue any further.

I will make a public statement here that I feel I have done my best to try and resolve the issues at hand, but since it seems to be only going downhill, I will stop wasting my efforts. Thread locked.