King of the Isle (finished)

[IndyPendant]

Heh. If llamabeast says it about llamaserver, it is so. ; )

And no, R'lyeh has had the Forge at least 4 or 5 turns.

The issue that needs a clear consensus, I think, is: is it worth the loss of three turns to get R'lyeh back?

[Zeldor]

For me it really doesn't matter, but 3 strongest players - Arco, Ermor, Machaka, should really decide.

[Twan]

Thanks llamabeast.

But argh 3 turns !? Erf I didn't paid attention to the players list it seems.

Hum... I've not moved a lot recently, but these 3 last turns were rather long to play (having to redo all the mind hunting to catch the 30+ spies spreading unrest in my realm won't be a big pleasure).

Let's say I'm neutral, if you prefer (or if Corwin is finally not interested by Rlyeh position) we continue from turn 54 with Rlyeh AI (sorry for the extra work llama if it's the case).

[LDiCesare]

Eriu doesn't matter much so I don't care. I will probably turn ai soon anyway considering the vast amount of lands I control.

[Gregstrom]

It won't have a negative effect on my turns, really. I'm happy to play it either way.

[IndyPendant]

I think I would prefer to just continue. R'lyeh isn't so critical that having it go AI will wreck things, like losing Ermor would have in Elli. And having to redo the turns would be just as much a pita for me, as well...

[llamabeast]

It will only take me a couple of minutes to return the game to the "future", so that wouldn't be an issue.

[Twan]

So...

We finally have an explanation : Rlyeh gone AI when he was defeated by Atlantis in a big battle and lost his pretender and many things.

In addition to everyone having his turns to redo it would be unfair for Atlantis to restart the turn of this battle (and the only non neutral vote is for turn 54 anyway).

So I think it's finally better to continue with Rlyeh AI and from turn 54.

Sorry for Corwin we finally aren't looking for a sub (and for llamabeast having to do a second time the change).

ps @solmyr : You could have posted the story here you know ? (I wonder why you never use this thread in general)

[Zeldor]

What? Going AI just because he lost one battle? It was 4 turns now and I didn't really see Atlantis regaining his territories.

[llamabeast]

Okay, it's all sorted and you're back on Turn 54.

[Gregstrom]

I can see Atlantis regaining their territories now...

[Zeldor]

I see rather Ermor getting them with amphibian undeads.

[Twan]

Zeldor said:
What? Going AI just because he lost one battle?



By chance Ermor isn't played by Tharsonius. He would have gone AI several times against Eriu. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[LDiCesare]

I didn't kill his pretender. Obviously because Ermor feared my mighty armies.
I'm currently wondering what I am going to do for the few turns I've left to live.
Attack Man the traitorous?
Sneak through and attack Ermor?
Attack Arco and try to take the Isle which is rightfully mine after all?
It's not clear which one is the most suicidal.

[Herode]

You could also give me a lot of gems and money because I am a very cool lizard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Twan]

Finally the isle was attacked by overwhelming forces. Or my mages believed it at least : discovering a lone bean sidhe during a patrol they felt threatened and casted all the spells they were scripted for (including things like will of the fates, and other mass spells, and this even after the bean sidhe was soul slayed).

The bean sidhe alone legion of Eriu made me use more gems than my mages have used in the big battle against Machaka.

[Herode]

Kinda nervous, hmmmm ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Twan]

Turn postponed by some hours as Zeldor won't be able to connect before monday (will perhaps be postponed to tuesday if his problem isn't solved).

[Zeldor]

Ok, surprisingly they solved it today, so you can move the host back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gregstrom]

Gotta love Eriu for being effective right down to the last elf.

[Zeldor]

Oh, yeah. You can say a lot about them, but surely not that they are ineffective http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[LDiCesare]

Its rather astounding indeed.
The poor Bean Sidhe was just strolling, she passed by thinking maybe I'll see a major battle before we all hide in the Sidhe beneath the mounds forever.
So what happens? The stealthy girll gets soulslayed early on but the opposing army apparently thought it wasn't enough. Arcoscephale mighty armies, afraid of the sidhe ghost, managed to cast army of gold and a few rains of stones, among other spells, AFTER the soul slay had taken effect.
So I hereby send you all an ultimatum: Concede that Eriu's obviously the only real god here and you're all false deities, or I shall send my mighty scouts and you'll destroy your economy, waste your gems and hurt your own soldiers!

[Twan]

I think they believed she was the vanguard of Ermorian hordes. Damn daltonian mages.

ps : the worst thing was one of them even recieved one of our own stones on the head, even with the army of gold etc... one of my rare air mages succeeded to wound himself and was feebleminded after this "fight"

(ps : sorry I'll be last one more time for orders, I'm just starting ; shouldn't have reinstalled warcraft 3 for my nephews, hard to be quiet with my computer since :/ )

[Twan]

So we are 8 players and one AI remaining.

[Twan]

I have a double "little" problem, with my provider who suddenly stopped his dsl offer to try to sell crappybox(tm) and cut everything at my home (don't even have phone now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ) ; and my usb key which don't want to work on my parents computer so I can't send from here.

I'll try to find another solution tomorrow (postponed to tuesday in case malediction continues).

[Twan]

Sorry for the delay.

Won't have internet before the end of the week, but I should find a way to play.

[Zeldor]

We will live with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have an idea for new map that you could make http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif King of the Hill - Hardcore Edition http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ddavidd]

I've got a problem with this turn.
The following error occur : "getland : bad Inr" and the game get closed.

Thanks for your help.

[IndyPendant]

I think Twan should forfeit the game, due to all the problems he's having getting the turns in. ; )

ddavidd, I'm not sure what's wrong in your case, but my file seems to be working fine. I would PM llamabeast about it for help. Try to be as detailed as possible.

I would like to state clearly here that I consider the central island exempt from all NAPs. For example, if Machaka manages to oust Arco before I can get there, I will not be waiting 3 turns to attack him there! Similarly, while I have the island, other players can do whatever they wish to that island and I will not consider it a violation of our NAP (if any).

Any attacks, offensive spells, etc etc on any provinces other than the central island however, I will consider a violation of our NAP and act accordingly. So if you want to wage an all-out war with me...give me three turns' warning first. ; ) Similarly, I will not attack another player outside the central island without giving three turns' warning. (Assuming we have a NAP. This is one of the few games where I don't with all my neighbours...)

Edit: Oh, and nightmares are annoying...

[ddavidd]

IndyPendant said:
I think Twan should forfeit the game, due to all the problems he's having getting the turns in. ; )

ddavidd, I'm not sure what's wrong in your case, but my file seems to be working fine. I would PM llamabeast about it for help. Try to be as detailed as possible.





Yes, my problemis fixed now and I'll be able to play this turn. Great thanks to Llamabeast for is help.

I agree with you about the "Island exception" NAP. But that could only occur if Arco doesn't win the game in a few turns.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[Twan]

I'm really doomed, I couldn't find a computer with a working connexion and able to read my usb key to send last turn, and I have to wait beginning (I hope) of next week to have my line restored.

Turn delayed to wednesday (I hope I'll be able to play before).

[Twan]

My line and connexion are finally back.

Sorry for the delays and non-answered messages (and thanks to llama who fixed david's problem).

[Twan]

Turn delayed to wednesday



It seems I've made an error and pushed more the deadline instead of removing the delay.

As I don't want to force stale someone I let it as it is.

[Zeldor]

It looks like Atlantis totally forgot about the turn...

[ddavidd]

Atlantis is out for this game and wanted to be turned to IA.

[Twan]

I had no message about this (perhaps missed one).

[Gregstrom]

Not submitting a turn over this long a period could be taken as a sign they don't want to play any more. If it isn't completely hopeless, maybe a sub could be asked for?

[Twan]

I think his situation is rather hopeless since a moment.

But as he protested when I proposed to search a sub for Rlyeh, I'd prefer to be sure (I've mailed him for confirmation).

[Twan]

There were some big battles.

I tested if I could defeat the main Machaka army with all my mages not protected against poison.

Ermor tested if an army lead by 150 naked mages could survive the heavy rain on Eternia.

The two answers were no.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. I'm going away for a business trip next week, and my internet access will be intermittent. Particularly considering how close things possibly are to the end of the game, could I get an extension of our timer to 96 hours for the next 3 turns?

[Twan]

Yes of course.

[Twan]

Atlantis will be turned AI.

Unfortunately he used a password. :/

[Twan]

Sorry to slow the game one more time, I was planning to play this afternoon but had a surprise visit and am also busy tonight.

(delayed hosting by 24 more hours)

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Okay, this I have to share. I finally have the time to review this turn. Among my messages were these four, in immediate sequence:

Hedna has cast Cloud Trapeze.
A Seeker has cast Cloud Trapeze.
Heliotheus has cast Manifestation.
Suddenly a huge Ashen Angel appeared out of nowhere and attacked Hedna.

[Twan]

Mine report was something like :
A spell was blocked by the forest dome
A spell was blocked by the forest dome
Suddenly a huge Ashen Angel appeared out of nowhere and attacked xxx.
Suddenly a huge Ashen Angel appeared out of nowhere and attacked yyy.
Flying monkeys attacked zzz.
Suddenly a huge Ashen Angel appeared out of nowhere and attacked zzz'.
Greats ball of fire are falling from the sky, 12 units were killed.
Suddenly a huge Ashen Angel appeared out of nowhere and attacked zzz''.
(etc...)

And after all ennemy spells :

Wwww has cast an astral dome.

Really unlucky. :" (especially when my previous astral dome caster was killed the turn before because I stupidly send him to my army fighting Machaka).


---

I had some difficulties to turn Atlantis AI (I have his password, but I've forgoten I couldn't do it myself due to CD key violation, I'll have him turned AI by someone else for this turn).

[Twan]

1. in round one cast storm, both master enslave and undead mastery with penetration bonus, then fog warriors on all these people, and rain of stones for non enslaved ennemy mages
2. in case it's not sufficient have a stupid mage scripted to cast wrathfull skies
4. bonus : forget to give gems to the mage supposed to cast storm warriors
5. of course as the only non enslaved ennemy survivors are seraphs and tartarians with SR items wrathfull skies only kill your own soldiers
6. watch your enslaved army spending 10 rounds to kill the last seraph (and lose most of the troops you could have gained, as well as several communion slaves)

[IndyPendant]

Whelp. That's it. I'm done. Unless anyone else has something they can do, Arco wins.

Lesson learned. Never, ever, *ever* play in a single-province VP game. Ever again. Whoever gets that province first wins the game.

Still, it wasn't a complete waste of time. I learned a *lot* about late-game strategy.

Good game, all!

[Zeldor]

I have chosen really sucky nation. I had quite nice position but I could do absolutely nothing. I couldn't win war with Caelum in the beginning, then later couldn't even threat anyone on the island. I got some nice indie mage, but low level ones [I got Lore Masters but way too late]. If I had nation with cheap communion slaves it would be great.

Oh, and that map really needs to be played on higher gold settings and I think provinces near capitols should have really bigger population. Now if you do not have really big part of planes your income is pathetic and you cannot really afford serious numbers of mages and troops. And you need them if you want to fight for the island. With 11 other players that could threat the owner it would be much more interesting. And now? Only Ermor could do anything.

[Twan]

Yes I think a king of the hill game rule was not a good idea finally, casting first in defense is a too huge advantage in endgame (on the other hand you had 36 turns to do something, with more reactivity 20 turns ago I would have lost half my provinces and, unable to send reinforcements to the isle, finally everything -but the problem would be the same with any new owner : once endgame spells are researched a defenser in a fort win as long he has good mages + some SCs inside and a sufficient number of gems for them-). In last battle I made a huge error with my Wrathfull Skies, but even with that Ermor had no chance to win.

The only ways I see to actually take the fort would need some turns of preparation and a lot of forging : Ermor would need some good assassins (like spectres with black hearts) to kill my key mages before the fight, inside their three domes ; or to be able to defeat my troops with only well geared SCs and mages (sending anything with less than 20 MR is a gift for my enslavers, and any mage without sufficient protection to survive a rain of stones is useless as well). Except that, my only fear was to have to fight an army able to survive 30 or so rounds and including a SC carrying the unquenched sword (or other fatigue BE caster), to kill all my communion slaves with exhaustion, then a second wave could have defeated me.

Or I should have kept my first idea : a "no fort on the isle" game rule ; finally even a crappy forest fortress make an huge difference : without the fort an army can be attacked several times per turn, so defensive mages can't have gems left for all fights (on the other hand, without fort it can be the reverse problem : it would be impossible to keep the isle if attacked 4 or 5 times per turn).

ps : do we declare game finished or continue untill my ascension ?

[Herode]

I think we can declare you as The True God, if Ermor does not think he has a chance with his 1200+ undead army...

BTW, I have a spy on Aeternia and I did not understand what happened. That's my newbie question of the day :
1 - Arco attacks a big Ermorian army with a small troop of Draconians and a few SC. And looses.
2 - Ermor attacks the fortress but... only with a small troop. And looses.
WTF are all the undead gone ???

As C'tis, I did not very well. A NAP with my Ulm neighbour was concluded pretty soon in order to push towards the center, but all my battles against the Machaka troops were plain defeats and stopped my development plans. Obviously, I'll have to study strategy and planning in depth before having a chance to challenge such players. A great lesson indeed ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Twan]

Actually sending more undeads horsemen would have been worse for Ermor, with my lich casting undead mastery.

[Zeldor]

I think that king of the hill style really limits many races, maybe even most. I see no chance to do really anything on defence without big number of communion slaves.

Also there is still problem with that sages. Twan said there are no preset libraries near capitols, but I have 2 MP games on that map and tried it in SP couple times and about 50% nations have Library just next to their capitol. That's very strange... not in some other place, but just near capitol.

[Twan]

Communion is not the issue, in end game destroying (or sometimes enslaving) entire armies in round one is possible with any nation having a good gem income.

Without communion you just need more boosters, some empowerements at worse, to cast the same kind of spells (undead mastery is a spell any nation can use once they have one D7 mage able to summon tartarians = usually all competitors in endgame ; and common tartarians paths allow anyone able to summon them to use rain of stones or earthquakes in round one ; storm, fog warriors can be cast by air nations boosted mages, air queens, seraphs, some tartarians, etc ; with astral nations like Rlyeh, Pythium or Arco you can have some S8 mages (S5 + 3 boosters) able to cast master enslave out of communion ; mine rare S5 were just too busy wishing on an alteration bonus site), etc....

There is no preset libraries out of central plain it's a fact (and I didn't found one in this game out of the one preset in a city of the plain on my fronteer with Caelum). I did found a temple of the magus early and an animists hut near my capitol but my number of indie mages random sites was rather small considering the size of my realm. About one random mage site (library being one of the most common) for 10 full searched provinces is a normal medium number in any dominions game.

In fact I've mostly won because of the war between Caelum and you which helped me a lot in early game (when I was rather weak with the low income from my luck/turmoil scales), I've been lucky to have on one side a neighbour at war and on the other Ulm who was very slow to reach the plain, so I could expand quietly. Once you signed peace Caelum attacked me to take his part of the plain but it was too late, I had enslave mind to catch more mammoths in each fight than I was losing troops, and he abandonned fast (I could have had far more difficulties against you as Man don't have the mammoth MR problem, but you prefered an alliance with me to another war, allowing me to take the isle and expand in caves, charming some big monsters, instead of having to defend my conquests).

I wasn't at all expecting a so fast expansion, my build was a very long term one with a dormant mother of clams (finally I've not really clam hoarded, I just made a dozen of them then used my pretender to charm beasts or GoR things ; I only had a huge gem income in the very last turns, once I had empowered and equiped two mages to wish for gems on an alteration 20 site) and growth 3 (not a very good scale for a 60 turns game).

After Caelum I've chosen to fight Machaka to add enslaved hunter spiders to my forces (and to help Ct'is as I wanted to have a death nation trade partneer). Fighting davidd was harder than expected due to all his elemental royalty, immortal wraithlords and summoned troops, and the earth attack spells he was casting each turn, it ended in a stalemate where I could win in defense only, and using a lot of mages. I could have been defeated with Ermor, Rlyeh or you helping him at this point. But the only nation who tried to do something against me before the very last turns was Ulm, and if his hundreds of spies were annoying they aren't a big problem for a mind hunting nation. Ermor could have attacked the isle with say 200 undeads a turn since 15 turns, to make my mages on the isle waste their gems each time (and kill themselves with friendly fire), and Man could have cut my income by half taking our border provinces and the undefended old caelum realm.

Even in late game (3 turns ago, when I was still patrolling it with most of my mages out of the fort) an agreement between 2 or 3 nations to attack the isle at the same time could have mean defeat for me as all gems would have been used in the first fight (of course only the last attacker would have survived, but then you had 36 more turns before his victory).

In conclusion no reason to blame communions, first round casting, your nation or the victory condition. With this kind of settings, ganging against who threaten to win (and far sooner than in the last minute) is an absolute need. I simply shouldn't still have all these mages, units and income to defend the isle after 34 turns on it.

[Zeldor]

My army size was really pathetic and I had no gateway. Then also crones got reduced mapmove with patch.

Of course if there was any serious offer of cooperation from other strong players [Ermor and Machaka] I would probably do whatever was possible. I did cast only some spells when you were withdrawing to fort.

The sad thing is that I wasn't really motivated to play longer as Man. Really the worst nation of MA. I hoped for fast expansion with longbowmen that would let me kill one neighbour, grab plains and then make use of indie mages and charmed guardians. But I couldn't find a solution against mammoths supported by A5 mages in the beginning.

[ddavidd]

I really hoped Ermor could take the island to continue this game.
Even if I've been defeated by arco most of the times, i've learned a lot of things, very usefull for futur games.
The most important is never be as slow in research again.

I think Twan's strategy of enslaving monsters alsohelped him in early game.

If there is really no interest in playing the next turn, Congratulation Twan !

[AlgaeNymph]

IndyPendant said:
I learned a *lot* about late-game strategy.

Your knowledge would make a good stand-alone post.
ddavidd said:
I've learned a lot of things, very useful for future games.
The most important is never be as slow in research again.

I've learned that a solid Ulmish army, even with nightmares, has no hope against supercombatants and battlefield spells. I never got to figure out how my master smiths would've done against that army of monkeys though.

[Gregstrom]

I was hoping to find out as well. Bummer, huh?

Good game, all.

[Zeldor]

Gregstrom:

You can write here about your experience with Fires from the Sky in EpikBattel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Gregstrom]

Mmm, yes. If your opposition have enough gems to force 5 or 6 castings of Flames through your domes, your forces suffer rather. Best advice: keep more domes up than I did, and use many rings of flame, just in case. Then cry when the cold damage equivalent is used instead.

[LDiCesare]

I wonder. Did anyone try and sneak some disease inducing units in the Isle of Aeternia to cause diseases and afflictions on the isle? Or was it only conventional warfare?

[Zeldor]

There is no way to sneak anything into province with couple hundred patrolling units + high PD.

[Twan]

Machaka tried a harvester of sorrow (scripted to retreat in round one) it was a good idea as the reaper effect happen before patrol I was losing 1k pop each time, he forced me to have mages with penetration gear soul slaying in first round. With resist gear, several harvesters like that could have been a real problem I think.

[Twan]

So... As Ermor see no way to take the isle in 2 turns (and others, needing to beat besiegers first, don't have time to try something) I officially declare game finished.

Thanks all.

[Zeldor]

Other game on the same map may be also finished before anyone gets 3VPs, heh.

I guess the biggest thing to blame here is the system of counting VPs, instead of adding it every summer it should rather be 'controling VP province for x consecutive turns'. Combine it with 'no fort on VP' rule should make interesting game. I guess it cannot be modded though and would have to be done manually.

[Twan]

Next time on this map I'd rather use non cumulative VP, with something like 3 for the isle, 1 per gateway, 1 per capitol and an objective of 9 or 10 (the isle, all gateways, 2 or 3 capitols, or more caps and less special provinces), so even with the isle you can't stay in defence.

[Herode]

Yes, the "no fort on Aeternia" condition seems interesting oh this map.

Anyway, congrats for this pretty fast and massive victory !