View Full Version : Command Vehicles
November 26th, 2007, 02:10 AM
What would be a good way to simulate a command vehicle? For example, command tanks like the PzBefWgn 35(t)s, 38(t)s, & IIIs.
So far I have bumped up their radios to a value of 91 to follow suit with the PzBefWgn Ibs, but not sure if the class should stay medium tank or change to FO Vehicle, or even to HQ? Or maybe a new class, command vehicle, hint, hint Don & Andy....I know fat chance, but no harm in asking. lol. Obviously I have dropped the bow machine guns, because these were removed for the installation of a second radio. The removing of the main gun can't be proved in the 35(t)s or 38(t)s, like the IIIs though, or should I say with the sources I have they can't be any ways.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
November 26th, 2007, 08:17 AM
"command vehicles" - or specifically labelled and identifiable "platoon/company" etc HQ units, as we have stated often enough on the forums for people to know our opinions by now, are a seriously bad idea.
Since the SP series of games give you too much information (spot something and it is immediately labelled, ther eis no concept of partial spotting ("enemy tank" or "tiger!" for a Mk4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)), then this route is a sure way to have your opponent informed of precisely which units to kill first. It is like labelling these things with a great big "Kick me" sign! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
The AI will know nothing about them, and use them as vehicles or foot elements of that class. A human player may remember to hide them behind cover etc wherever possible.
So - specific command vehicles etc are generally, a bad idea. They should only be used for e.g. FOO vehicles, or offered for humans only in the misc tab (as in some MBT OOBS with M577 etc), assuming they can lift an HQ element), as a species of utility vehicle or similar. Soviet-stle company and above commander tanks (all post WW2?) are not modelled, for this reason too.
There is a particularly bad example of this in the WW2 GE OOB - Ost company KpFue (sp) - which tells me that I have to execute one in my current Soviet LC, when I trip over one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif - we will need to edit the name of this unit to a generic ost type. No idea how that got through QA..
November 26th, 2007, 09:53 AM
OTOH with tanks and vehicles, from what I've read shooting "tanks with antennae" was a reliable way to stop Soviet tank units. Of course most likely concerned the older units - command tanks got there that ugly large circular antena around a turret so were easy to spot.
One solution would be to name the command vehicle exactly as normal one and have gentleman's agreement with say PBEM opponent that you won't be looking at enemy's unit information screens.
November 26th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Since the SP code gives any formation command unit a radio, there is absolutely no need for special command tanks. Therefore, assume they are part of the formations already provided.
November 26th, 2007, 04:05 PM
I apologize if this is an old topic. Didn't realize it.
Early in the war, They were extremely easy to spot, ie the rail antenna. Germany learned from this and changed to the less noticeable "star" antenna. As well as the dummy gun, to simulate looking like a normal tank.
You are correct though Andy, it was not a good idea to make them so obvious. lol. But they were still there none the less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
As far as the AI usuage goes, no way to control that with the picklist? Don't know much about the picklist, just asking. You know me Andy, most my efforts are graphics. lol. Just trying to find a usage for my Pz.Bef.Wgs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Considering there is one in game right now anyways, the Pz.Bef.Wg Ib. Thought I would expand that with the others.
It would be nice to have them prevent the flaming "Out of Contact" tag with units that have radios. Kinda a range extender if you will?
The code giving all the formation command units radios is a good thing for Germany, because all their fighting vehicles were to have radios. Not quite sure about other countries. Now, the Command Vehicles I am referring are higher on the command tree than, say the platoon commander. They had mulitple radios. No radio value that will simulate more than one radio?
If the code won't allow the class "command vehicle", or its your personal preference to not have it, any way to simulate it within current restraints? IE, radio value, existing classes? I know making them an FO vehicle makes them pretty darn expensive.
November 26th, 2007, 06:14 PM
SP units either have a radio - which works or not. No separate networks, so no need for command vehicles that had several operators and radios.
There really is no need for command vehicles whatsoever, since they would have absolutely no game function.
November 26th, 2007, 06:35 PM
The only reason I can see to consider command vehicles with BFAs (Big Friggin Aerials) would be to visually mark the command tank of the Soviet 10 tank companies with the platoon command structure or similar units in other oobs. However, I recall that radios and being "in contact" represent a wider range of C&C and morale effects than just having a working radio on net.
Even doing this might not have the desired effect. I ran up a quick AI vs AI game over lunch with a German medium company against a points equivalent force of 2 Soviet 10 tank units with the company commanders replaced by Gazs right under the German guns. Even with their "heads cut off", the Soviets managed to swamp the Germans for a draw.
November 26th, 2007, 07:24 PM
Large 10-lump platoons will only tend to have real problems when darned near everyone in that formation requires rallying. Especially if the subordinates do not have radios. The HQ will not be able to "service" all of them. If only 1 or 2 need rallying, and are in range, then the 10 lump works fine, so long as you want all 10 tanks together in a small area, all the time. When the 10-lump decides to break, it will be a mass rout more likely.
But an army based on a companies of 2 or 3 platoon size, will tend to do better overall at rallying, and can reliably spread out more. Retreats will be 1 or 2 units at most, from a platoon that has particularly been hammered. And there will be a company commander to aid rallying, and also in the rear where he may help to catch routers.
However, unlike normal tabletop wargames rules, SP charges no points for HQs. And in any case, the penalties for being out of command control are not particularly severe, even for the case of SP3 with its "platoon objective" command and control, if switched on.
November 27th, 2007, 12:31 AM
Ok, so there is no way something like that is getting put into the game. Gotcha, and no problem.
Got any ideas how I can simulate one within the contraints of the game as is, other than bumping the radio value up and changing to FO Vehicle class?
November 27th, 2007, 08:14 AM
Put it in as the commander (first unit) in any formation, and it gets a radio, as previously stated.
November 30th, 2007, 09:04 PM
I have done this in the past, having a BefhlsTiger for example, I made it a tracked scout vehicle adjusted weapons and ammo and radios. As mentioned you might as well paint the tank bright orange, the AI soon zeros in on you, especially in campaigns and while sometimes I lived, most times I got toasted.
Now fitting out a SdKfz250 or 251 to a FO Vehicle is what I use now to have a mobile HQ. Beside the obvious MODs ensure you replace the AAMG with an LMG, reason being that with an AAMG your HQ HT will fire at aircraft and attract follow on airstrkes on your position. Same for a MMG will shot back at ground troops too much. Of course you could shut them off every game. My SOP says if the enemies that close then maybe the jig is up!!!
SdKfz-251/6 is a Mobile Command Post or SdKfz 250/3 is Command Radio Vehicle like Rommelsí Grief.
Same can be done for other nations.
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