Elli (Started)

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Game Name: Elli
Spawned off of Halls of Valhalla, PBEM game on llamabeast's server.

Maximum # of Players: Eight
Early Era, Map Aran
Dom 3.10, vanilla.
Standard settings excepting:
Hall of Fame 5
Graphs off
Renaming allowed

First turn, 48 hours. Then switches to a 30 hr quickhost. Once three people ask for it, switches to a 50 hr quickhost.

1)Atlantis->Sensori
2)Arcosephale-> MartialDoctor
3)Caelum->IndyPendant
4)Ermor->Tharsonius
5)Lanka->Reverend_Zombie
6)Maverni->Torin
7)Sauromatia->Aethyr
9?Fomoria-> Lazy Perfectionist

This a PBEM game on LlamaServer. If you're not familiar with that, ask me, or check out Halls of Valhalla thread for relevant links. Do not password protect your pretender, since other players will not see your turn.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

If no new recruits by end of week, I'll look into a four player match.

[Sensori]

I'd like to go Atlantis if no other sea nations show up. If someone else goes some other sea nation, count me out.

[Sombre]

Always pleasing to see such faith in Atlantis' aquatic prowess.

[Sensori]

Sombre said:
Always pleasing to see such faith in Atlantis' aquatic prowess.



Ain't it? Seriously though, last time I played Atlantis (on this very same map) I ended up 1 province away from Oceania and kinda couldn't win. That wasn't exactly fun.

Let's face it, EA Atlantis is crappy compared to R'lyeh and Oceania. :/

[Reverend Zombie]

I'll take Lanka, please.

[Torin]

Malverni before it gets taken

[Aethyr]

[/quote]

Ain't it? Seriously though, last time I played Atlantis (on this very same map) I ended up 1 province away from Oceania and kinda couldn't win. That wasn't exactly fun.

Let's face it, EA Atlantis is crappy compared to R'lyeh and Oceania. :/

[/quote]

Poor lil' fellers, they need some love.

[Torin]

I dont think so. Atlantis is strong. But it would be good to be more than one water nation. If no one get other I can be water instead of Malverni.

[Sensori]

Torin said:
I dont think so. Atlantis is strong.



The strongest area Atlantis has is "getting the crap beaten out of it by every other water nation", especially in EA. And it's not that good against land nations, either. Only thing it has going for it are the big sacred mages, since the actual sacred units are awful. Bad Admin (what, like 20?) combined with their insane resource requirements, and horrible MR...

As I said, if someone else chooses an underwater nation, I'm not going to be playing. There are better ways for me to waste my time than play a game where I know with 100% certainty that I'll lose.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

At a mere 11 water provinces (and horrifyingly close starting positions), I don't think its any problem at all to make Atlantis the only underwater nation. Especially considering the horribly close starting positions i got in a test game for Oceania and Atlantis.

I'll avoid the question of Atlantis' strength like I'll avoid any further big (20+) player games. Until I win something (as ANY nation), or learn something, I'll keep my mouth shut. I figure with 8 players, I have decent odds of victory- not counting other player's skills.

Derailed for a moment there. Only one water nation, Atlantis, allowed in game, on account of their being only 11 water provinces.

With all this debate, I've forgotten who asked for Atlantis.
I'll come back to this thread today and update the player list to include Atlantis, Lanka- oh and almost missed it - Maverni which goes to MoM, if I'm not mistaken.

[Tharsonius]

If there is still room I will join as Ermor.

[davegg]

i would like to be Vanheim

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Okay, that's nice. Filled up fast. Nine people. I'm a bit overloaded with games, so I'll likely step out, leaving us at eight. If not, I'll ask llamabeast to increase the cap to 9.

Need to know whether everybody's ready with a pretender, or needs some amount of time before they are good to go?

If everybody submits a pretender, we'll start ASAP. I'll message Llamabeast now, and make sure he's got all the settings. Deadline for submission looking to be Saturday.

Anyways, everybody above, you're in. I'll update the first post a bit later with a complete player list for convenient PM.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Okay... Everybody got their choice, I'll step out of this game. I'll likely be opening up another HoV game at the end of the month if somebody missed a chance to get in. I needs remember to PM llamabeast, make sure everythings good to go. Deadline for pretenders Saturday, will start earlier if everyone gets their pretenders in.

[Sensori]

To recap for those who don't remember, I ripped this lil info bit from one other game (and replaced the name with this game's name, zomgz).

You can now upload your pretenders to the LlamaServer. To do so:

- Make sure you have no mods enabled
- Go to Game Tools -> Create a pretender god in Dominions
- Go to the savedgames/newlords folder in the dominions directory, and find your pretender file (e.g. mid_pythium_0.2h)
- E-mail the file to: pretenders[ at ]llamaserver[ dot ]net
- Crucially, you must have the game name 'Elli' in the subject line of your e-mail

[Sensori]

Still missing...

Arcoscephale
Caelum
Vanheim

Remember, you gotta submit your Pretenders soonish!

[Torin]

Should we get a house rule against retreatin mage casting wrathful skyes and stealing bogu´s friends commands?

[Sensori]

A house rule against a retreating mage casting Mists of Deception and Wrathful Skies sounds good to me. As does stealing Bogus's and his friends' commands.

[MartialDoctor]

I've heard of the "retreat spells" being exploits - so I'm definitely for a house rule on those.

I'm not sure what stealing Bogus's commands is... can someone fill me in on that one?

[Sensori]

Well, they have relics from Dominions 1 as their orders. Namely commands like "Attack Commander/Mage" and "Fire Mage". If you charm them you can steal them and put them on other commanders.

Most people don't like it if someone does that.

[Tharsonius]

heh the new dirty tricks thread...

agree with both house rules, using the commands with bogu & co is ok, but not to copy the commands

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Flaming Bag of Poop!

Sorry, Tharsonius, but mentioning the dirty tricks thread has given me a new forge item idea.

[Tharsonius]

hmm, F1N2?

[IndyPendant]

Hrmf. Pretender (finally!) submitted.

Sorry for the delay; I've been having a helluva time settling on one concept. I'm not entirely happy with what I did settle for, but *shrug* let's see how it pans out.

[Sensori]

Heh. I'm not happy with what I'm settling for, either, but it's more related to the nation I chose rather than the pretender itself. There's no way around Atlantis sucking.

Only things going for it is the amphibiousness and the Basalt Kings. The units that I can use, however, are subpar... 20 Admin makes sure I can't use Coral Guards or Living Pillars.

"Yay"

Oh yeah, and we're still missing Vanheim.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Without R'lyeh in the equation, what's so subpar? I've never played EA Atlantis.

On a side note, if you build in a Sea (not deep) province, you get the Kelp Fortress (40 admin). If you find and capture the right bit of shoreline, you can be adjacent to a lot of provinces. They're not gonna be built deep sea or in your capital, though. One of the advantages to being able to build forts underwater. Though not such a big advantage with the way Aran is laid out and its high land connections.

All Shamblers have a basic protection of 7 or 9, so the incomplete armor on the War Shambler isn't an instant death sentence. Have you tried using those? How did it work? Still bad?

[Sensori]

Yes, I have come to the conclusion from test games that War Shamblers are the only way to go. I also tried the Warriors of the Deep. Both die about as much and work about just as well when killing indies. Problem is, they just die a lot, which means constant reinforcement is required. Atlantis has no good units it can easily mass, and the mediocre ones that it does get are hard to mass when you NEED them (early game). And compared to sacreds or regular elite units fielded by other races, they are horrible.

And you mean with R'lyeh *and* Oceania out of the equation, things should be different. Yeah. Now, in this situation, I'd say Atlantis is just subpar compared to many of the land nations instead of being a tasty snack for the other water nations. It's weak, but thanks to it being a water nation, it has a strength which comes into play. I think I'll actually survive long enough to field Basalt Kings.

[Aethyr]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Without R'lyeh in the equation, what's so subpar? I've never played EA Atlantis.



My only experience in MP w/Atlantis is in the Armadillo game which just ended. It was MA, but I suspect some of the difficulties are the same; if not greater since EA is (arguably) a weaker version.

I had fun playing w/Atlantis as they have some of the best battle mages in the game. I think that they can be played competively, but will tend to falter in the late/mid to late game. The biggest drawback IMO is that you cannot build (at least im MA) mages in any of the land provinces you capture.

I intend to play as Atlantis again (mainly because I love being the under-dog http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif). When I do, I'm convinced that a rainbow Master Lich is the way to go.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Not really relevent to this game, but thought I'd share:

In one of my own test games I've been running for this, to help me try to decide what pretender to play, I managed to push a Mighty-AI Atlantis all the way back to his home castle, with only Shipwreckers and spammed mermen from two magic sites. (Granted, the sites allowed me roughly 50 mermen a turn, but still... ; )

Currently, he keeps sending out his 8-Candle, 400-hp, 55-regen-each-turn Wyrm to break my sieges, and I don't have the magic to go down there and nuke his butt. The last battle, that wyrm *single-handedly* routed a 300-merman army of mine without casting a single (useful) spell. I was hoping to turn-50 win the battle; no luck.

I'm sort of having a blast trying to contain the bugger, but I'm beginning to think I'll have to research water-breathers and either Dominion kill him or move some of Caelum's 'overpowered' *cough, hack* regular forces to take him out. My next strategy is to keep the wyrm busy with mermen for some more turns while I try Corpse Construct hordes.

The only good news about the whole thing is that the hordes (and hordes and hordes and hordes...) of cheap mermen I've been creating has me showing second-highest on the army graph, so none of the other AI's want to go to war with me...; )

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Who are we missing, and should I join? Should we start without them? That's the question I'll try and answer later this evening. Opinions welcome, probably best for me to wait until Sunday.

[Tharsonius]

8)Vanheim->Davegg is missing

[Aethyr]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Who are we missing, and should I join? Should we start without them? That's the question I'll try and answer later this evening. Opinions welcome, probably best for me to wait until Sunday.



Well LP we've pushed the deadline a couple of times I think. My vote is that we start no later than this evening with you joining in if you're so inclined. However, if you're too overloaded seven players on Aran (it's still Aran, right?) will still make for good game. Anyone disagree?

[Sensori]

Uh, we have? I don't think I noticed anything to that effect, not at least on the forums. I thought the original deadline was end of the week (Sunday), but it was changed to Saturday because there was so much time.

[Aethyr]

Hmmm...perhaps I'm mistaken--sorry.

[Torin]

I don´t remember deadline on sunday either but i supose i can wait.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Only in Halls of Valhalla- but we didn't have a deadline so much as a minimum start time (not before Turkey Day). I'm kind of relaxed about the games in HoV, but because so many people show up to join once I spawn its own thread, then I start worrying about timelines.

[Sensori]

Squadila, we're off!

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Yep, we're off.
Davegg didn't show, so I jumped in. I'll update the first post to reflect.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'm so happy I took one luck.
I usually dread the messages screen, even when I take order 3, misfortune 1. But instead of a plague or riot or whatever, I have a simple five earth gems come my way. Nothing I can do with them, but it's so nice not waiting for the hangman's axe to fall.

[MartialDoctor]

I'm a bit confused as to why I am seeing crowns on my map... When I have played in past games, I only see these when using Victory Points.

[Sensori]

Yeah, there are VPs for some reason, but they don't really mean anything but a little increase in dominion when you take 'em when there's no VP victory.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

My internet died. Should be able to get turn in Saturday, though I'll extend the timer a few hours.

[Tharsonius]

Ermor is trading for earth gems!
In exchange we can offer astral or fire gems.

Please send me a PM if you are interested

[IndyPendant]

Just out of curiousity, our starting positions were drawn completely randomly, right? --Cuz if not, I would like to know what I did to earn your hatred so... ; )

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Random. If there is something particularily wrong with your starting position, let me know. I can't help you now, but I can easily mod a starting position out of the game (if the map offers enough valid ones) for future games, and relevant ones.

If it was your neighbors or the indepndent- sorry. The Norns do hate you, and I am merely the vessel of their displeasure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Aethyr]

Well, after playing a couple of games on Aran now I think with 8-9 players someone's bound to find themselves in a very early war.

In the Alta game I found myself boxed in between R'lyeh (who knocked out Machaka quick) and Abysia, who almost single-handledly wiped-up the map with everyone else. FAJ's a very good player; between his skill and my starting position, there was not much I could do.

In the Elli game...well I suspect I'll be fodder soon either to the next wave of Caelum's elephant rush, or to the mighty giants of Fomoria who have just appeared on my border.

I'm not complaining; its just the luck of the draw. It just means that you must have a strategy that allows you to expand quickly and protect yourself from early rushes.

However, with 8 players I think that Llamabeast's modified Paraganos map (used in the Chupacabra game), with modded starting positions, would probally give each player a good chance of expanding and make for a more robust mid-end game. You may want to give this map some consideration for future games.

[Sensori]

Parganos is simply hideous for even that lone water nation, though. Aran's bad with its snaky sea, but Parganos... It has the worst snaky sea ever, AND it has an unconnected sea which you can't get to without marching through land, which means if you're unlucky you won't be getting there at all.

So as someone who's playing a water nation, I much prefer this one snaky sea over a river with a pond that's not connected to my river.

[Tharsonius]

there is no unconnected water and still you are marching through a lot of land already...

[Sensori]

If a few shore provinces count as "marching through a lot of land", sure, you're right.

[IndyPendant]

Yeah LP, that's what I expected, random starts.

Just the luck of the draw. I started at 65, with 3 neighbours, one a plains. *sigh* --And then! I found out that Sauromatia started at 73 and Atlantis at 101 (sorry if that was any big secret, Sensori : ).

/rant on

There are 107 provinces on this map--96 land. Aethyr and I have 14 of them IN TOTAL. The other 6 players must be well spread out; you have around 15 provinces each to play with. Enjoy!

It was an amazingly crappy start for me--but just barely good enough that I couldn't cry foul until I found my neighbours, a few turns in. With my playtesting, and this MP game, I've already decided I *DESPISE* the Aran map, and will never, ever play in it again. Too much chance for someone getting stuck out on a peninsula with nowhere to go, or down in that crappy wasteland corner.

Also: random starts, imo, should NEVER be used for MP games. It really sucks to commit months of a person's time to a game--only to realize that you've got no room to expand in any direction. If an MP map has 8 players, 8 starting points should be picked out, and then assigned randomly. Much more chance of not being a waste of time.

I don't know if I've salvaged anything and created a game where I have a half-assed chance of winning. Only time will tell, but if I have done so, it was only by trampling over (literally ; ) Aethyr's game. Because of my crappy start, one of us--quite possibly both of us--had to have the game stripped from them.

/rant off

Anyways, just putting this out there as food for thought for future games. I'm still going to play this one through, and see how it goes...

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Anyways... thanks for the feedback- I see where you're coming from, for sure.

Actually, I am stuck on that peninsula- and barely secured a route outwards.

Though actually, I like Aran for these reasons. I like the extra tension and the idea that I could be eliminated at any time. I appreciate the risk of early elimination. I learn more from a quick vicious war and defeat than in a game such as BAG where I rot in peace for three years from a bad start position and timid diplomatic choices, despite having a large swath of wastlands and swamps available to me.

That said, check out Halls of Valhalla - my first post lets the players select either map, aran or paraganos. And if you get in there really _REALLY_ early, right when a new game is started up (before it gets its own thread) you get a chance to really customize it. I'm afraid though, that once gets its own thread, it isn't likely to change.

P.S. Games I'm involved in, I have an interest in Aran, I'll be careful to mention the map. For the other games, the ones I'm just administering, though... I'll use the thrice-modified version of Paraganos as the default when the players have no preference.

I am familiar enough with the map editor now to take on custom positions... but before I do that, I'd like to see each players:
1). Name
2). Nation
3). Province index # where their capital is
4). Rate position great, good, ok, weak, or horrible
5). If its a bad postion, mention what's wrong with it.

Ideally, I wouldn't have to wait, and would get this information now, so I could start thinking it over. Realistically, some of this information might not be the sort of stuff you want to let out there. Practically, I recently kicked off Forseti, though there aren't many takers for the settings of that one... so it'll probably be a while before I start a new one, anyways. OTOH, nothing is stopping me from organizing another 8 player one (that I will not be participating in).

To sum: in a week or so, when the information isn't classified, could you please evaluate your starting positions and pass that information on to me?

[Aethyr]

I don't mind sharing:

1) Aethyr
2) Sauromatia
3) 73
4) OK

While I agree with many of Indy's points: starting very close (relatively) to another player presents some challenges.

However, I think that thing that he's not giving enough credit to is diplomacy. When he chose to attack there wre several indy (no pun intended) provinces to be had. Additionally, especitally since he got the jump on me, I was willing to offer terms that were quite favorable. Instead, he decided that it was more beneficial to his cause if he eliminated me sooner rather than alter. I'm not faulting him; in his position I may have made the same choice. BTW Indy, I still have not conceeded that you are strong enough to break me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather have 10-12 or so provinces to work in before an early encounter, but I also enjoy the dimensions that an early encounter and diplomacy bring to the game. Hope this helps.

[IndyPendant]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not emotionally upset or anything. And simply starting near another player isn't really the issue. It's that I was only three provinces away from *two* other players, both of whom were placed in the only direction I could expand in--all on top of being handed a rather weak starting province.

It's like joining a wrestling match, then discovering I've been hobbled and had one arm tied behind my back--and no one else has. At least I've got a *very* good excuse if I don't win. ; )

And you're right, Aethyr, diplomacy was an option--but not a viable one, in my opinion. With Atlantis expanding around me from the northeast, and you due east of me, I literally had *nowhere* to go. All you would have had to do was take the provinces bordering your capital, and I would be cut off from the continent, with only around 7 or so provinces to my name. And I...highly doubted...you would be willing to cede one of those province to me. ; ) Since a war between us seemed all-but inevitable...I decided to initiate it under the most favourable terms I could.

One thing though, Aethyr: if I shouldn't have revealed your capital loc, I apologize. Maybe I'm being way overconfident, but I've already begun considering it mine. ; ) (I hope I don't look back on this and wince in embarrassment, in a few turns!) Didn't mean to exclude you when I apologized to Sensori, no intention of offending, and so forth...

[Aethyr]

IndyPendant said:
One thing though, Aethyr: if I shouldn't have revealed your capital loc, I apologize. Maybe I'm being way overconfident, but I've already begun considering it mine. ; ) (I hope I don't look back on this and wince in embarrassment, in a few turns!) Didn't mean to exclude you when I apologized to Sensori, no intention of offending, and so forth...



Do not worry. The blooddrinkers of Sauromatia wish all to know the place from whence their DOOM comes! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif We are glad that you consider our capitol already yours, please do come in. We have a feast that has been prepared especially for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Aethyr]

The Witchkings of Sauromatia thank the Formor for generously lending us their land; you shall be repaid beyond imagining. We require no assistance against the birdlings, but we invite you to join us in picking their bones clean.

To the Alantians: you also may partake of this conquest; you will find us most generous in friendship and in the sharing of the spoils.

You will find us completely without mercy in war.

To the cowards of Caelum we say only this: We are coming for you.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

To all parties, I wish to say that the Fomorians are an honorable peoples. And we will honorably wage war soon.

We have reached the limits of our empire. Someday soon we will send either Sauromatia, Caelum, or Arcosephale a messenger informing you of war. We have not yet decided whom, and will listen to envoys, although our own interests will be the greatest priority. We expect both parties to abide by the terms of our non-agression agreement.

For example, if I send a declaration on turn six, the message shall be recieved in-game on turn seven. Hostilities shall not occur until turn ten. If they fight honorably, I shall show quarter if asked for, and fight honorably myself.

If, on the other hand, the other party attacks the turn they recieve the declaration, then I shall show the fools the true power of disease.

[IndyPendant]

Coming for me? You have only one province left--and one that apparently Fomoria 'lent' you. Soon you will lose them.

Still, it will be interesting to see what you intend to do...

[Aethyr]

IndyPendant said:
Coming for me? You have only one province left--and one that apparently Fomoria 'lent' you. Soon you will lose them.

Still, it will be interesting to see what you intend to do...



Why, the unexpected of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[MartialDoctor]

On another note, I will be on the road home at the end of next week. I will be leaving on the 20th or 21st, depending on the weather, and will be able to play again on the 22nd or 23rd. I will try to get to a hotel with an internet connection but there is no guarantee.

Is there any way we can do a quick host, without a time limit, during that time?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Uhmmm... with llamaserver?
No. And yes.

I can't remove a timelimit. But I can extend it to something like 4 days, or I think I remember Llamabeast mentioning a fortnight (which I had to lookup in wikipedia, being American). Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he said.

Think you'll have trouble meeting a 336 hour deadline?

Trivia Question:
What is one furlong per fortnight in miles per hour?
Quick! Is that in International, nautical, Irish, or Scottish miles?
Lightning round! Why is the nautical mile the only standardized mile that varies depending on your location? At least before 1929?

[MartialDoctor]

336 hours... yeah I think that would work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I will let you know before I leave. I appreciate this.

[Aethyr]

And so the Sauromatians, unable to recover from the swiftness of Caelum's attack, faded into memory...

Gentlemen, I have set myself to AI. Enjoy the game.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

... narr! I stalled. I would swear that I've set this host to thirty hours before... Pooh.
But no, its at 24, again. I'm setting it back to thirty, and suggesting we switch to a two-day cycle for our turns now, though I'll wait to be thirded before I go ahead. I can manage thirty just fine, though I'll have to be anal about checking to make sure it doesn't reset to 24 again. It probably had something to do with that turn mixup, and isn't likely to happen again. And I lost my renegade sage mercenary for no reason whatsover€.

[CLASSIFIED REASONING BLACKED OUT] I hearby declare war on Sauromatia and Caelum. If I can take either capital, it should greatly bolster my deficent economy.

Warning has been issued on turn 15, early summer, year two.
As Sauromatia has fallen, so shall I. Sorry, that didn't come out right. Anyways, I've bumped the game back to 30 hours, bumped it an additional 6 hours just this once.

The game will now host at 17:50 GMT on Sunday December 16th.

[IndyPendant]

Caelum would just like everyone to know that we desire peace, and do not wish a war with anyone--even Fomoria. ; )

If that is what Fomoria wants however, then so shall it be!

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, I'm leaving right now. If we could get a longer turn duration for the next three days, I'd really appreciate it. I hope to make these turns but I am unsure if I will have internet access at my hotels.

Thanks, Lazy!

[Sensori]

What the hell, Lazy_Perfectionist hasn't been sending in his turns for the last... 2, soon to be 3 turns!

Did he quit playing without notifying us?

[IndyPendant]

Are you sure, Sensori? I haven't noticed any "xxx has staled" or whatever messages. --How do you tell when someone stales out, anyways?

I would be really surprised if LP just quit playing. He seems a dedicated player, what with the Valhalla thread, and so forth. And he has a rather sizeable army (80+ units, iirc) that he's been growing in his castle on our mutual border.

--On the other hand, this was the turn he was supposed to attack me, and he hasn't. I simply presumed he was going to build up a bit more first (a mistake on his part!), but maybe something has indeed gone wrong.

Still, this can be cleared up easily enough. LP, are you out there? ; )

[Sensori]

You can tell it by, first, him never sending turns in before the timer runs out in LlamaServer. Second, you can tell it by going to Admin options and checking Staling data (same LlamaServer thing). You'll see Fomoria has 3 stales in a row, and he hasn't said a word about going anywhere or doing anything. Plus, he's the Admin, which means we can't push the timer off anywhere.

You won't get a "Someone has staled" news thing ingame. Only the staler gets that info.

[Torin]

I cant play any turn over this weekend. if timer can be set it would be good to me

[IndyPendant]

Ah, thanks Sensori. Good to know.

Heh. Wow. Lanka has also staled out 3 times. --In fact, everyone in this game has at least once, except you and me. Strange...

LP has staled again. It's definite: LP is MIA. And he was our moderator. Since practically half the players will be absent over the weekend, I've sent an 'URGENT!!!' PM to llamabeast explaining the situation, and asking him to delay the hosting of our game. I'm hoping to avoid any further stales.

Who knows? Maybe the extra time will allow LP to return from whatever limbo he vanished into...

[llamabeast]

Sorry, I didn't get the PM in time, but it looks as if everyone got their turns in on time apart from LP - who does indeed look like he might be missing. Hopefully he's just had some technical difficulties.

IndyPendant asked me to postpone the next hosting till 11pm on the 24th, and then put it on 48 hour timer. Does that sound okay?

PM me if anything else needs to be done. Don't want people staling.

[IndyPendant]

Thanks, llamabeast. And no worries; I had sent you that message in response to LP staling out again, so you delayed the right turn. And that delay should be plenty, based on MartialDoctor's request.

The 48-hour thing was my own initiative, based on the fact that it's the holidays coming up. We can go back to 24 or 30 if everyone prefers.

[Sensori]

No matter how unintended Lazy's disappearance was, he has greatly detracted from the fun of the game by starting a war with a nation and then buggering the hell off. I'm seriously thinking about going AI because the game is, by no means, fair at this point, and it's solely due to Lazy's declaration of war and disappearance, giving Caelum an unfair advantage not only in the war but also in the whole game.

[Torin]

cmon, the only favored nation is yours since fomoria was your main threath with their water breathing giants.

[IndyPendant]

Well, I can understand Sensori's frustration--to a point. I did gain an advantage by LP's disappearance, that's undeniable.

However.

I also started at a severe *disadvantage* by my random starting position. Before LP went AWOL, I had pretty much resigned myself to using this game as a sandbox to learn some more from whatever mistakes I ended up making, before I went under.

At best, things have balanced out so that I now have a fighting chance at winning the game. And that's at best. Which if anything should make people happy; more challenge, better game, etc.

And Torin does have a point, Sensori; with Fomoria gone, Atlantis only has one other nation that can challenge you in the water (before late-game). Your position is actually more secure, now--particularly since I have no intentions of fighting any nation that doesn't attack me first. (For a while, at least.)

And, well, at the risk of offending Sensori with a bit of an elbow in the side...I didn't see him crying foul--*at all*--over my and (I've now discovered) Fomoria's unbelievably crappy starting positions, which initially gave the other players that 'unfair advantage' he speaks of... ; )

[IndyPendant]

--Oh, and I have just finished sending a PM to llamabeast. Anyone have any objection to my taking over as moderator in LP's absence? I don't mind stepping aside of someone else wants the job.

[Sensori]

Uh, obviously I didn't whine about your "crappy starts" because my start (if you can call "I gots a home province of a nation in the 15+ provinces I got at start, unfairly uneven start for meh" as a crappy start ;p), as a water nation in a game with a snaky sea, was crappy by default. The fact that my position is "secure" in the sea is a joke, since that never has actually won games for water nations and it's the same as me being almost unable to interact with the rest of the world cuz my troops suck on land compared to the rest.

And... After having killed Sauromatia you had a "winning chance" (you were as large as all other nations tbh), and you had two capitals which meant a gigantic boost to your gem and regular income. Now you have by far the strongest bid to victory and you will soon have 3 capitals which will make your gem/regular income totally insane, and you become almost twice as large as any other nation. All this WITHOUT A FIGHT. There's a slight difference there somewhere (as in between having a mere "chance at winning" and having by far the greatest chance for winning since you are by far the largest nation with least actual fighting), but I guess you just dun wanna notice it.

I wouldn't call a game where one nation gets to grow into gigantic proportions with no fighting a "better" and/or "more challenging" game, but rather a "retarded" and/or "not worth my time" kind of game. :p

[Sensori]

Torin said:
cmon, the only favored nation is yours since fomoria was your main threath with their water breathing giants.



Yeah, sure, he was a "big threat" with giants that basically have the same ability as everyone else's units with water breathing items. They're poor amphibians after all. And you really think that a nation who gains ALL OF FOMORIA'S LANDS is less favored by his destruction than me? That's just... Uh... Not very bright. So if Arcoscephale, hypothetically, destroyed Lanka who wouldn't even fight back, that would somehow favor you more than Arcoscephale, too, I guess?

That just makes no sense.

[MartialDoctor]

Sensori,

Yes, Indy did get an advantage due to Lazy's drop... and I don't know why he dropped since he doesn't seem like to the type to do so. Something must have come up in his personal life.

Anyways, there is still plenty of game to be played. Just because something unpredictable came around that gave him a strong advantage, there is no reason to drop out. Indy has not won the game and it is far from over.

And, Indy, I have no problem with you becoming the new moderator.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

My apologies. I'm out of the game and won't have the energy to resume.

It's not technical problems, or game problems. Kind of got caught up in the holidays and family members both welcome and unwelcome.

I found it tough during regular days to find the energy to complete my turns and come up with strategies. When I've got an aunt across the hall snoring thunderously, and talking to voices only she can hear at odd hours of the night... I really should have said something earlier. And that's just a fourth of the time.

I'm sorry about all this.

[Sensori]

Could you at least switch yourself to AI to speed things up...?

[IndyPendant]

Well, this much I can do, at least:

I've changed the timer to 48 hours, and I've changed the hosting time to happen in one hour (2:25 GMT). --I was going to change the timer to 28 or so hours, but Arco didn't get his turn in until sometime within the last few hours, so I'm not going to lower the timer from 48 unless I hear from everyone that they're okay with that.

I'll continue to monitor the llamaserver page, and move the hosting time forward once everyone gets their turns in, unless I hear from someone that they'd rather I didn't.

That should help speed things up a bit... ; )

[Sensori]

I meant that if Lazy_Perfectionist could turn himself AI so we wouldn't instantly go up to the max time every time. That's all the speeding up the game needs really.

[IndyPendant]

After some effort, Caelum is finally reaching Const 6, and we are opening the table for trades. We can make pretty much anything that does not involve fire and blood. If there's anything you would like, PM me and we should be able to work out a fair deal. (I'm a big believer in win-win deals...; )

--IndyPendant.

[Sensori]

Something's come up. I'm gonna need a sub, fastish. Gonna make a thread about it. If I can't find a sub, well, I'll have to turn Atlantis AI.

Wish me luck. ;p

[MartialDoctor]

Sorry to see you go, Sensori. Looks like you found a sub, which is good. I hope that whatever has come up for you is a good thing.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. That's gotta be a bit of a pisser for whoever cast that Mind Hunt on Ermor's home province...and fried my poor, innocent scout hiding deep in enemy territory...; )

[Tharsonius]

We mourn your loss. But we are also a little offended that you prefer to our great capital as "enemy territory".

[Torin]

GG Martial doctor, that castle finally went down.

[MartialDoctor]

Yeah, that was quite a drawn out battle between us. Nice job holding out for so long.

[MartialDoctor]

Oh, and just to let you all know, I will be traveling over the next few weeks and may have trouble getting to my turns. So, if you see me miss a turn, that would be the reason.

[IndyPendant]

I have postponed Elli's hosting for an extra day to see if that gives MD enough time to get his turn in. I don't want to delay it later than that, since his post could mean that he won't be able to play at all for the full two weeks. If any of the other three object, I can bring it back down to host at the regular 48 hours.

It's still on quickhost, if he does get his turn in sooner.

[MartialDoctor]

Thanks for the extra time; appreciate it.

[Torin]

I have written an AAR of this game since I lost.
the link is in my signature.

[IndyPendant]

Bah. I'm chickening out of this post. It would have been a really cool one if it's correct though. ; )

[IndyPendant]

I've extended the hosting by 24 hours again for MD, just in case. Not sure how much good it will do, though; he staled last turn, which means it's 4 days now since he's played a turn.

Again, I hesitate to extend our turn longer because I don't want to end up pausing the game for a week or something.

[Torin]

Ive read a post that he will be traveling a few weeks. perhaps he will miss many turns.

[MartialDoctor]

Yeah, I am back now... I hope that I my timing out hasn't kept you guys too much. I had no internet access for the last week and a half.

Hopefully these turns I have missed haven't made things too bad for me either :-)

[IndyPendant]

Hrm. We've dropped to the second page. Well, let's liven things up a bit.

Caelum dissolves our NAP with Arcosephale, and declares WAR! It is currently Turn 60. On Turn 63, we can each give our minions the commands to invade, and all is fair game!

--IndyPendant.

[AlgaeNymph]

Atlantis dissolves its NAP with Arcocephale.

[MartialDoctor]

Wow, hey now! You guys need to actually message ME. I didn't receive any messages stating this!

This board is not a place I check regularly.

[IndyPendant]

MD has PM'd me asking for a one-turn delay to the start of hostilities. I have agreed. Caelum and Arco will now issue commands to invade on Turn 64 instead of Turn 63. Hopefully Atlantis will as well. ; )

MD, you may want to subscribe to this thread, so you can get email notices when someone posts here...

[IndyPendant]

Hrmf. Wtf? Did Tharsonius go AI? That's very lame-***, if so. To do it without a word. : /

Guys, there's only the three of us left, and Ermor has like 1/3 of the world in a great big chunk. I'm...not sure I want to play this game anymore. : (

Proposal: I delay this turn for a while. I've PM'd Tharsonius to make certain it wasn't just some sort of mistake. If not, and he really has dropped out...what do you guys think about calling this game a 3-way tie? : )

[MartialDoctor]

You're kidding me?? He dropped?! Man, things are getting interesting now too!

[IndyPendant]

They were, yes. Bah.

Well, I received a "read" receipt sixteen hours ago. Tharsonius has read my PM, and he hasn't responded. I guess he isn't going to bother.

I've turned off the timer for this turn. What are your guys' thoughts?

[AlgaeNymph]

IndyPendant said:
ell, I received a "read" receipt sixteen hours ago. Tharsonius has read my PM, and he hasn't responded. I guess he isn't going to bother.

Some people don't respond that fast to PMs, so I'd give Tharsonius some more time.

[MartialDoctor]

Yeah, I'm with Drya. I'm surprised he didn't find a replacement if he is tied up elsewhere...

If he doesn't respond, would it be possible to get a replacement for him?

[IndyPendant]

Get a replacement! Bah! Heh, I feel intelligent now... ; )

I've PM'd llamabeast, and he says he can turn the clock back to Turn 63 for us, before Ermor went AI. I've advertised for a replacement here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=588284&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post588284). Hopefully we will gain a replacement and be able to continue!

[Baalz]

I'll sub, no sense in a game getting torpedoed for a MIA. No worries if Tharsonius shows back up.

[IndyPendant]

He won't.

Welcome, Baalz!

This turn is now changed to be due at 16:05 GMT Monday, to give you some time. I've turned Quickhost back on, and after this turn we will move back to the regular 48-hour quickhost schedule.

(And you know, it occurs to me that if we hadn't agreed to delay the war by a turn, and if Ermor had waited just one more turn to stale...it would have royally screwed us over, because we all would have completed--and seen!--each other's intended opening moves in the coming war...; )

--IndyPendant.

[Baalz]

Bad news guys...I don't suppose anybody knows the password for Ermor? Still no response from Tharsonius?

[IndyPendant]

Password?!? Unbelievable. I'll try PMing him for it...

[IndyPendant]

Hmm! I never got a read receipt on my PM, but Elli's turn popped before the timer was up. And Ermor is still in! Was that you, Baalz?

[Baalz]

Yes, the legion marches under new command. The new dawn of Ermor is at hand as the dust from a thousand boots rises into the air and the world shivers as they prepare for life under the burning standard. Tend to the prayers of your heathen gods while you can, the empire is upon your doorstep.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Looks like I chose the wrong ally. ; )

I was afraid Ermor would do something like that! Atlantis, you've done dick-all in our 'war' with Arcosephale. If you don't get off your *** and kick butt this turn, you'll be facing Arcosephale and Ermor alone. *shrug*

Well played, Baalz. I'll be reviewing this turn's battles later, at which point I may have to extend that to MartialDoctor too. ; )

--IndyPendant.

[Baalz]

I sentence you for the crime of heresy
I sentence you for the crime of bringing a war ally in unprovoked aggression against a peaceful neighbor
I sentence you for the crime of being a half man abomination with the audacity to attack a nation of pureblood men

The legion marches with their brothers in Arcoscephale, and the sentence is death. The androgynous frog man in the water knows better than to invite the wrath of the legion, the crucified birds nailed up across the continent would be enough to quail even real men. Look not for salvation from the toad cowering under the waves.

[IndyPendant]

I have delayed the game by 24 hours in the hopes that MD can get his turn in. Two stales during a vicious war is...not as fun a victory. ; )

Do we want 72 hours for regular turns? I can change the interval if so...

[Baalz]

Yoink!

[IndyPendant]

Heh. A confession: this game (as well as King of the Isle) are the very first times I've reached a MP end-game. I must say, I'm glad you're on board, Baalz. I'm learning like six different tricks a turn, fighting you!

Now. Where in hell is that damned fountain going to show up next? ; )

[Baalz]

Oh, you seem to be doing more than alright yourself. I've got a couple tricks up my sleeve but then I couple them with stunning strategy like sending a bunch of guys to attack Caelum with no lighting resistance. Doh!

[Baalz]

Oh the humanity! Teleport in a dozen S3 mages with penetration boosters, script the first one to cast light of the northern star, everybody else to spam enslave mind. Drop in on a large group of tartarians....and indeed several of them fail the MR roll. Problem is I neglected to give an astral pearl to the light of the northern sky guy so everybody is spamming paralyze. Instead of getting caught up fighting each other 4 tarts are paralyzed and the rest squish up my mages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[MartialDoctor]

I'm going to have to pick your guys brain after this one. I'm still learning how this game works...

I didn't even know you could teleport guys in like you all did. I mean, I knew there were spells to move armies but I was a bit surprised that Indy moved his ENTIRE army like that :-)

I am really enjoying this, though. Quite an interesting game.

[Baalz]

Heheh, I did the same thing to him a few turns ago and managed to storm one of his castles before he destroyed my army (stupid nightmares http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif). The trick is to use leadership boosting items - several of them in combination will let one commander lead several hundred troops if you use the right commander and a mix of undead, regular and magic troops.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. I would love to trade tactics and stories when this is all over. I suspect mine aren't nearly as crafty as you may be thinking they are though.

I'm almost certainly going down soon, within about 2-4 turns. It's taking everything I have just to slow Ermor and Arco down. Arco's now taken back all the provinces I grabbed in my initial (unwillingly solo) thrust, and most of my own provinces have been fought over back and forth 2-5 times now. My lands are wartorn ruins, I've lost one fort, and another is besieged.

I can't get too annoyed though, really. I made no less than three major blunders in this war. (That I'm aware of. Heh.) First was forgetting to transfer more gems to my main army besieging Arco's home province way back at the beginning, so that when he sallied forth, my army wasn't Antimagic'd, Leaded, Mistformed, Regen'd, Reinvig'd, Flying, and Berserking. DOH! Second was sending my Gale Gate caster out by mistake to defend against Ermor's attack...and when he died, global spell went poof. *sigh* Third was sending extra support mages into that most recent battle where Arco is now beseiging my castle--and forgetting to set them to "Move and Patrol", so that now they're sitting inside the castle playing with their nice purty gems. --I suspect I may have lost that battle even with the additional support though; but at least I would have inflicted some damage!

I can't help pointing out though that the difference between me and Atlantis was that my mistakes were not deliberately ignoring an agreement to double-team Arco. Things might very well have been different if Atlantis had actually bothered to attack Arco when he said he would. We most likely would have had Arco all-but wrapped up before Ermor attacked, despite my mistakes...

[Baalz]

If it makes you feel any better I would have moved sooner if Atlantis had attacked. Part of my hesitancy was the large army on my border not doing anything yet, and there was *no way* I'd sit around waiting for you two to get around to killing me with no Arco to distract you. I would have immediately attacked with whatever I had if you both were moving on Arco.

I've made a couple fairly big mistakes myself from sending in a bunch of non-lighting immune tartarians in to not giving gems to the guys scripted to drop in and rain of stones you to my previously mentioned flub where I just lost most of my good astral mages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif To be honest I was quite surprised at how fast Arco beat you back, it looked like he was sunk for sure with the amount of territories you took so fast.

But yeah, I feel like I've got my fangs sunk in and am tightening the coils now. Atlantis' capital is sieged and Caelum is rapidly bleeding to death.

ABANDON ALL HOPE. THE LEGION COMES AND THE ROTTING CORPSES ARE PILED HIGH. FALL TO YOUR KNEES AND BEG FOR A SWIFT DEATH.

[IndyPendant]

Hrmf. Bah. Sorry about staling out there, guys. I lost most of my remaining SCs last turn, trying to take out one of Ermor's armies (and failing). I've been wracking my brains trying to figure out a way to pull my *** out of the fire ever since, and I just can't do it.

So I intended to go AI, but forgot that the turn would be due before I got up this morning. ; ) I'll put myself on AI this turn, when I get home from work.

Nice recovery, MD; I didn't expect that so quick. And nicely played, Baalz. I would love to spend some time afterwards discussing suggestions and opponents' perceived mistakes, if you guys are still up for it. Just let me know when.

And have fun!

[Baalz]

GG man, that was an interesting fight, and some rotten luck on your part - I had just moved all those mages in anticipating storming that castle with a bunch of tartarians inside - if you'd attacked my other army you'd have easily won.

I didn't see many big mistakes on your part, other than a somewhat unavoidable over-reliance on lighting spam which was easily counterable once I got my head out my ***. I will say though that there's been no attempt by anybody (other than one halfhearted squad from Atlantas which quickly retreated to the water) to bring the fight back to my lands. As you noted, your provinces have all been fought back and forth for as you bleed troops while I've just been sending a steady stream over and putting castles up in 90% of my provinces. Seeing the speed with which Arco seemed to go down I expected some significant raiding onto my own territories as I had just thrown everything I had into yours and all that lighting is a whole lot harder to counter when I don't know where it's coming next.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Jeez, I did almost as good this turn when I staled, as I have been ever since I began retreating in the face of Baalz's blitzkrieg!

And yeah Baalz, that was my intent--to try to keep the offensive momentum going. The problem was, it's hard to fight two superior opponents alone at the same time. ; ) Ah well, I still like Caelum for some reason, despite their horribly severe limitations. I'll probably be looking to play them another time later on.

[MartialDoctor]

Good playing with you Indy. Yeah, I was also surprised that I was able to take out most of your forces so easily. However, knowing that you had few gems, that would explain part of it.

Another part was, in my opinion, you split your forces too much. I think you did that due to the fact that I wasn't resisting much, at first, and you figured you could take me over quickly.

The splitting of your forces allowed me to more easily pick off your smaller armies with my larger ones.

[MartialDoctor]

I guess my main question for Indy would be this. Indy, when you attacked me, you managed to get your entire army over to my side. I understand that your troops can fly but how did you move your Tartarians so far into my territory? Did you give them items that enabled them to do so?

[MartialDoctor]

Ah, did the time get reset to 36 hours? I just received the turn yesterday afternoon and I am getting a 6 hour notification already.

[IndyPendant]

Hmm, I never made any changes to the llamaserver, and I *think* I'm still the mod here (am I?) It's set to 48 hours now...

As to moving that first army to Arco's capital, it was not really any big secret. I just had the Airship artifact, and gave it to a 100-unit leader. Most of Caelum's leaders have Flight-3, and I just gave the Enchantresses and Shamans Boots of Flying so they could come along. Then I started the war with those leaders placed in my wasteland castle, which was three provinces away from Arco's capital, et voila!

I was able to send those hordes of leaders in all directions cuz they could all cast Thunder(strike) and Lightning(Bolt)...and I had completed my research. All of it. Level 9 in all schools, including Blood, before the war began. And I wanted to take advantage of that before (hopefully!) anyone else had managed to do that.

/whine on

I also got *hammered* with that new scale bug that was introduced and then fixed in the recent patches. I dropped over 25% income for dozens of turns! I went from around 60% of my gold being spent on upkeep to nearly 90%. I couldn't even produce leaders in half my castles, let alone units! (Most of my provinces were on those two damned peninsulas, and bordered Atlantis. He was sucking away my Order, Production, and Growth...all *supposed* to be at +3.) That really, really, *really* sucked.

I got screwed over in so many ways this game. --Not by players, just bad luck. I couldn't even complain about the damned scale bug, in fear that it would tempt the others to attack me.

/whine off

One thing surprised me; I handled sitesearching poorly in this game, and I thought I had to be way behind in gem income--another reason why I started the war. Based on Arco's territories I conquered though, it seems I was wrong. I think my gem production outstripped yours...

Anyways. Any other comments/suggestions? Baalz, how about you? Or are you guys still in top-secret wartime mode? ; )

[Baalz]

Oh, I think probably a few more turns before I want to roll all my cards face up.

[Baalz]

Alright, Arco is about to stale for the third time in a row I'm gonna call this game over. GG guys, could the game host mark it as finished on the llamaserver?

[IndyPendant]

Doop, it's over due to staling out? That's unfortunate. Did you pretty much have the win or something, Baalz?

If I don't hear any objections, I'll end the game.

[AlgaeNymph]

Arco's why I was holding out, no reason for me to keep getting whittled down then.

[Baalz]

Oh, I'm 99.99% sure I had the win locked in. I'm more than twice as big as Arco and Atlantis is down to just a handful of provinces left...I think I've got more fortresses than there are enemy provinces. I've got over 20 GOR'ed tartarians and I'm casting Arcane Nexus this round with about 600 pearls. I was just waiting for Arco's concession, but with three stales in a row now I guess I might be waiting for awhile. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[IndyPendant]

Okay then. Elli has been declared finished. Congratulations, Baalz! Well played. (As usual.)

Now! The AAR's! Gimme gimme gimme! (Please. ; ) What advice do any of you offer, if any, and is there anything you would like me to expand upon?

[Baalz]

Baalz said:
GG man, that was an interesting fight, and some rotten luck on your part - I had just moved all those mages in anticipating storming that castle with a bunch of tartarians inside - if you'd attacked my other army you'd have easily won.

I didn't see many big mistakes on your part, other than a somewhat unavoidable over-reliance on lighting spam which was easily counterable once I got my head out my ***. I will say though that there's been no attempt by anybody (other than one halfhearted squad from Atlantas which quickly retreated to the water) to bring the fight back to my lands. As you noted, your provinces have all been fought back and forth for as you bleed troops while I've just been sending a steady stream over and putting castles up in 90% of my provinces. Seeing the speed with which Arco seemed to go down I expected some significant raiding onto my own territories as I had just thrown everything I had into yours and all that lighting is a whole lot harder to counter when I don't know where it's coming next.



Oh, I hope you weren't holding your breath too much as I don't have too much to add to this. One thing that I don't think was obvious was how much of an advantage I gained when I wished for the chalice. Not sure who I snatched it from, but I expected to have it snatched back and wouldn't have been able to re-wish for it for several turns. As it was, with the chalice I was cranking out a solid 2 GOR'ed and non-afflicted tartarians every turn. I was also steadily building castles and temples on every province. Having been on the other side of that I have to say it's immensely daunting trying to plan an attack on somebody with solid fortresses - while you're seiging castles they get the luxury of bending all their magic and picking the fights. If the game had dragged on much longer my overwhelming temple lead would have begun to show as everyone else's dominion crumbled, and I'd shortly be teleporting in to destroy any temples not in a castle - it's very hard to catch up at that point because you have to build temples *and* castles in large numbers. I'd also be summoning juggernaughts as fast as possible...

[MartialDoctor]

Argh, sorry guys, I just can't play these PBEM games. Hopefully, I can find people who enjoy playing this game who are nearby (so we can play a game in installments).

I didn't stall due to the thought that I'd lose, though. My life just gets really busy at times and games are not on the high priority list.

Now, Baalz may be totally right in his assessment that he had won the game. As this was my first MP game, I'm not sure, but I did not feel that I had lost it. His dominion wasn't overpowering me too much and I had planned on attacking his newly conquered Caelum provinces (which had no fortresses). Plus, I had a huge cash income and what I thought was a good gem income.

I don't know what a GOR'ed taurtarian is but I had no problem controlling Indy's taurtarians... and I wasn't even using any boosters. Plus, I had a huge amount of mages and quite a few of those nature dragons, whatever they are called.

But, again, I could have been in for a surprise from Baalz, I'm sure :-)

Anyways, I really enjoyed playing with you guys. This PBEM stuff just isn't for me, unfortunately.

[Baalz]

NP man, I understand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You certainly might have surprised me! GG.