How difficult is this game?

[Fenris99]

I've seen it being sold at a local game store. The premise seems interesting and I'm a big fan of fantasy and of strategy games. But how difficult is it to beat the AI? I don't want to spend 50$ on a game that's going to have me ripping my hair out in frustration...


Thanks in advance for any answers...

[Twan]

Dominions 3 isn't really hard in SP (after 3 or 4 games you'll probably find some strategies always working against AIs then it's just a question of execution and adaptation to your nation).

The learning curve is longer for MP as there are really a lot of usable tactics and counters to know.

[Fenris99]

Does it have different difficulty levels?
How does it compare to other turn-based strategy games?

[Meglobob]

Fenris99 said:
Does it have different difficulty levels?



Yes, Easy, Normal, Difficult, Mighty and Impossible.

The AI can be quite challenging for half a dozen games or more. Especially if you avoid reading spoilers on this board and just discover the game for yourself.

[Fenris99]

Tempting, very tempting......

[Meglobob]

Fenris99 said:How does it compare to other turn-based strategy games?



Personally, its the best fantasy strategy game I have ever played.

I have played it longer than any other game ever, just over a year now. Mainly due to the very active MP community. I must have played 30 - 40 MP games by now.

Its the sheer depth of the game and constant new patches, which introduce new content.

[sector24]

In addition to the built in difficulty levels you can create the map scenario in such a way that the game is more or less challenging. For instance, a 1v1 against an Impossible AI on a small map is not nearly as difficult as a 1v21 Normal AIs on a small map. And there are all manner of setups in between, plus you can set the AI to offensive or defensive, etc.

Suffice it to say that you can make the game ridiculously easy or quite challenging, even after becoming familiar with the basics.

[Twan]

Yes there are 5 difficulties from easy to impossible (impossible AIs may be really hard to beat, but mostly because they start with lot of bonuses).

edit : and sector24 is right, there are also a lot of ways to make SP challenging once normal maps become too easy

How does it compare ? Hard to say.

I think the dominions AI isn't as good as the really good ones (ie Civilization or Galciv AIs), but far better than the AIs of Paradox games and most indie wargames.

About complexity I would say a dominion SP game against non impossible AIs (if you just use what you need to win = perhaps 5% of the content) isn't more complex than any of these games, but there are then several more layers of deepness once you play against humans (the only games I see with an as big number of combos are card boardgames like Star Chamber).

[KissBlade]

The AI is frustratingly difficult if you limit yourself from abusing it. There's no real middle ground though since if you use anything like good magic scripting, thugs/SC's, PD, you pretty much roll over it. The game becomes incredibly fun when you play online though.

[jimkehn]

Fenris99, I have been computer gaming since the early 1980's, with an old Atari 400. I've had games of all stripes and genres. I have to say this is the one game that has kept my interest the longest. I've had the game about a year, now and on these boards, people are still mentioning aspects of the game I have never seen. With all the nations and eras, I have yet to try ALL of them. There is soooo much to discover and learn. I come from a military simulation (historical) background in gaming, and to be honest, I don't even play those anymore. I can sincerely say that Dominions3 is the ONLY game I play. SP or MP. I still am challenged by the AI. In my SP games I normally will use 8-9 AI nations on medium sized maps. I let the computer randomly choose the nations and I set a few at mighty and difficult. I know there are a lot of much better players than I, but I routinely get my butt kicked at these settings. I can also honestly say that compared to most $40 wargames I own, $100 for Dominions 3 would not be overcharging. (I hope the Devs don't act on that statement) The game just has more lasting value than any other game I have run on to.

Buy it. You won't regret it.

[Tichy]

There's also the active participation of the game developers on the forums, and continuing active development of the game in the form of relatively frequent free patches with new content, often incorporating features requested by players and modders.

SP can be challenging, but in different ways than MP. I can reliably beat Impossible now as long as I don't fall to an early AI rush. In SP on impossible you need to contend with the AI having orders of magnitude larger armies than you, but know that it doesn't effectively use the magic system or item crafting, and often makes mistakes in battlefield strategy.

In MP you have to contend with extremely talented players who will drop a house on you and your mom without trying...but then you can oftentimes diplomatically attach yourself to a different talented player and learn a lot about the strategy of the game by watching the titans battle each other.

[Fenris99]

Well, I picked up a copy.

[DonCorazon]

I can give you the noob perspective as I bought the game a couple months back. I consider based fantasy war/empire games by far my favorite genre, and while I missed Master of Magic, I have tried most everything else: HOMM, AoW, WarCraft and Warlords. None of those comes remotely close to capturing the “epic” nature of the genre the way Dominions does. The game plays out like a Steven Erikson novel and like Erikson, manages a subtle sense of humor. Its quite dangerous for your personal relationships, so make sure your significant other has something to occupy their time while you waste away the hours trying to figure out how to stop the Shinuyaman hordes from overrunning your Ulmish empire…

[LoloMo]

Dominions 3 is the best turn based strategy game I have ever played. And I don't think we have yet seen all that can be done with the "engine", which the patches are uncovering bit by bit. So Dom3 is the best turn based game I have ever played, and is still improving with every patch.

Oh, and I will also credit the decline of my fencing career to this game. I used to fence 4 hours a day 4 times a week before I met Dom3. Now I'll be lucky to get in a session once every other month. My gf might be next. Wahahaha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Fenris99]

Hmm I just loaded it up and I don't know how to do anything. Obviously I need to read the manual first.

[Micah]

Check out the tutorial as well, though I would recommend reading the manual at some point as well. One caveat to that though, is that some things in the manual have changed since it was written (that's a nice way of saying that they're buggy). So take everything with a grain of salt and chalk it up to learning when you find something that diverges from the printed material, it'll save you some frustration to keep that in mind (speaking from personal experience here).

Some things off the top of my head:
Your rate of dominion spread does not increase with every 5 temples you build.
The morale system is (I'm pretty sure) much more complex than the rulebook explanation, you don't get random routing of elite units due to a bad morale roll. (Which I'm glad is the case)
Critical hits due to fatigue do not simply halve the protection value of the unit when they occur, the effect is much more severe in practice.

There's other stuff in there I'm sure, but that's a sampling. Don't mean to scare you off, as this is without the doubt the best money I've spent in my life on a game, just wanted to keep you from taking everything in the book as gospel.

[HotNifeThruButr]

The first... maybe five games that you try (yes TRY) to play will make you feel like you're on some kind of crazy pills.

Don't worry, everybody goes through this. The coolest part of this game is discovering what every nation has to offer, what every spell and summon does, and every item you can construct.

I advise just throwing away your manual (seriously. Who can even remember all that junk?) and going headfirst into the game.

[Wokeye]

Ummm is there a list of 'deviations from the manual' somewhere?

[Ironhawk]

Fenris99 said:
I've seen it being sold at a local game store.



Dom3 is sold in stores? I thought it was only available to order online?

[SlipperyJim]

Yeah, just play through the tutorial. Then stick to Early Age for your first few games. Middle Age and Late Age games are slightly more complicated due to some ... unique ... nations with hostile dominion effects.

I have to agree with HotNife: Your first few games will probably be overwhelmingly complicated. Don't worry about it. Dom3 has a steep learning curve, but that learning curve is a direct result of the unbelievable amount of STUFF in the game. Once you start to get the hang of it, everything will start to make sense.

As soon as you've exhausted the "vanilla" races and gameplay (which will be a few years from now), then hop over to the "Scenarios, Maps and Mods" subforum to download some user-created content. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[hnchrist3]

If you are a strategist, this game is unequaled.

At first you will be overwhelmed, because you have no ability to find a balance or even useful strategy. There are something like 600 spells in the game alone. Most are garbage, but the trick is in using specific spells against other Nations (even the "crappy" ones). Not only that, you have to choose "paths of magic" to study, so a spell you want or like is only available if you put your researching abilities to it. In the mean time, there may a simple yet unavailable spell that would make your life grand, but you chose something else.

THAT is the nature of this game. Choices.
Every turn you are forced to make choices that can win or lose it for you, right now. And then there are the choices within the choices, such as what to recruit; how to use THOSE choices.

Effectively you are playing in a gaming soup. Not only are you playing against the other players (be they AI or real), but you are playing against yourself.

There's a saying of mine that applies to all games:
"An 'always-losing' strategy, always loses."

I have seen people try-and-try-again the same losing strategies to games and then wonder why they lost.
If it didn't work the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd times, on what planet does it work on the 4th time?

Adaptation.
It is the name of this game.
You either adapt, or you lose.
But here things are not that simple. To start with you have to choose an era (early/middle/late) and a nation. Already you're looking at 150 choices. {Apologies to developers, this is an arbitrary number; I did not work out the possibilities.}
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Personal note.
When I first started playing, I settled on Helmheim as my 'Nation of choice.' But time and time again, I was humbled by (Late-Age) Ermor. So then I started playing LA Ermor, and that became my love. ALL OTHER NATIONS HATE ERMOR. (A bonus to me!)
Huh? Surely. Anyone who challenges me early is doomed to die. I may go with him, but que será, será.
================================================== =======
================================================== ========
Why we (the community) love this game is that we are challenged at every turn (literally).

Faithfully submitted,
HNC3 = Howard N. Christ III

[Loren]

Fenris99 said:
Does it have different difficulty levels?
How does it compare to other turn-based strategy games?



In SP vs the easy AI you'll probably win as soon as you understand how the game works. You'll find it much harder against a bunch of Impossible AI's and MP is a whole different issue.

[Edi]

Ironhawk said:

Fenris99 said:
I've seen it being sold at a local game store.



Dom3 is sold in stores? I thought it was only available to order online?


Some small retailers have bought a numberof copies from Shrapnel to sell the conventional way, so that's probably one of those.

[Fenris99]

Well, I played last night without reading the manual and got my Wyrm-god killed on turn three. You mean he can't take on large armies by himself?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif SO anyway I brought the manual to work today so I can at least know how to do things like move my armies around.

I found the game at J and R, a small retailer in downtown NYC. I wandered in looking to see if they had any new games and it caught my eye.

[VedalkenBear]

I'd like to second the point regarding the mods. That's a huge part of extending the life of SP. The quality does vary, but that's normal in any human enterprise.

If you play quite a bit of SP, especially on large maps, one incalculably important ability to learn is how to handle large groups of troops. The computer AI generally likes to hire them.

I must disagree with the point about the usefulness of the rulebook. RTFM23 comes to mind regarding it. The most important parts to know early are, IMO, the parts that apply to any nation. They are, in no particular order:

1) Learn the rules of morale. Certain nations have no problem with morale; others have crippling problems with morale.

2) Learn how dominion spreads. This almost follows from 1), since from a morale standpoint, you always want to fight in your own dominion for the morale boost it gives.

3) Learn the scales. Learn them well. Don't concentrate on the actual pretender chassis you take so much as what those scales do, and what they mean. As an example, start a game with any nation and take Turmoil-3. Don't even play a turn. Look at how much money you make (which will be from your capital province of ~30k people). Then exit the game, and take Turmoil-2. Etc. etc., all the way up to Order-3. That gives a much more concrete 'feel' as to what happens with that scale, at least. You can do the same with Sloth vs. Productivity, but for Growth/Death and Luck/Misfortune, there's no 'concrete' way of figuring those out.

4) Learn how to position troops. Experiment. Some are pretty obvious (shield archers with other troops... generally), but there are other issues as well.

A frequent discussion on these forums is what nation to suggest to a beginning player. I prefer to ask the player what kind of nation they want to play, and then suggest from a shorter list. Most people who pick up this game will know enough about the genre (4x TBS) that they'll be able to answer this question.

Anyway, sorry for the longwindedness.

[Fenris99]

Don't apologize, it's all good advice. I'm trying to figure out how to play so more advice is better.

[VedalkenBear]

Well, that said, what kinds of nations/factions/different-strategic-choice-factors do you enjoy? Luckily, Dom3 has something for everyone. Generally, about 3 somethings for each one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Fenris99]

VedalkenBear said:
Well, that said, what kinds of nations/factions/different-strategic-choice-factors do you enjoy? Luckily, Dom3 has something for everyone. Generally, about 3 somethings for each one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ah, that's a difficult question to answer. When I played the Civ games I usually tried to out-tech everyone. With Paradox games I usually role-played by trying to outdo whatever that nation did historically; overrun Sibera for Russia, colonize for England, etc. When playing wargames I generally prefer to have a smaller army of elite units. I also prefer ranged units that can kill before the enemy closes the distance.

Any advice on starting nations?

[VedalkenBear]

1) Like to out-tech people. This generally means good magic (since it's the 'tech tree')

2) Rather like RPing.

3) Smaller, more Elite armies.

4) Ranged units.

Well, I guess the obvious response is 'MA Caelum'. They have excellent ranged units, but don't really use them. They have very good mages, and good _battlemages_ at that. The only sticking point is that their initial army is generally almost required to be Mammoths intermixed with high-morale troops and just stomping everything flat. Dunno if that appeals to you.

[Fenris99]

I'll give it a try tonight... just reading through the manual right now. There's so much to do here. It's awesome!

[llamabeast]

I like MA Marignon for a starting nation. They are human, so quite familiar. They have powerful crossbowmen, and elite knights. It rapidly becomes obvious that magic is powerful as they can lay down some serious firepower with easy access to fire magic. And later on in the game they can do interesting things like summon angels.

Also they have interesting options in that any of a strong bless, a rainbow pretender or excellent scales would be a reasonable tactic to try out.

[Fenris99]

Those guys sound even more interesting.

[VedalkenBear]

They _are_ pretty 'traditional'; I guess my issue with them is that they are virtually the only nation he ever plays. So I'm overloaded on them. :p

[Fenris99]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Oh, when I play RTS I'm kind of a turtler. I like to build up and research and then attack with a fully upgraded army.

[Fenris99]

ok, question: How do you raise the spell levels of your mages? Do they go up automatically when you research magic?

[Amhazair]

I suppose you mean their level in the different paths of magic (fire, death, nature and the like)? They don't improve automatically or easily. With the appropiate level in construction and the apropiate paths you can construct some items that boost one or more paths. (A list of all the boosters can be found on page 282-283 of the manual. That's the page I've used most often. )

Alternatively you can use magical gems to 'empower' you mage in that path. To do so just select the 'empower' order when your commander is in a province with a lab. This is cripplingly expensive though, and generally only done to experiment/for fun in SP, or occasianally to reach certain benchmarks in MP (you'll start to figure them out when you play more)

[Fenris99]

Amhazair said:
I suppose you mean their level in the different paths of magic (fire, death, nature and the like)? They don't improve automatically or easily. With the appropiate level in construction and the apropiate paths you can construct some items that boost one or more paths. (A list of all the boosters can be found on page 282-283 of the manual. That's the page I've used most often. )


So you're telling me that you can research all these powerful spells and have no one capable of casting them?

Also, what determines their base level in the magic disciplines? Is it the pretender's levels?

[Endoperez]

The nations specialize. Middle-Age (MA) Marignon, as an example, is a Fire/Astral nation with a touch of other paths I don't remember. Other nations have different magics. Pretenders don't affect the mages available. Gem income is often just as important as the power of your mages.

As far as magic power goes:
1 is low
2 is base power: fireballs, bolts of lightning, etc
3 allows most good stuff, most often
4 is high, and all paths have at least one booster item available at level 4 and construction 4 or 6.
5 and above is for the heroes, pretenders and epic spells, and mages that start with 5 or more can also use booster items and spells to reach most high-level goals.
9 and above is only used for spesific strategies, to reach spesific goals. Pretenders rarely take magic over level 5 or so unless the nation can also use the bless it provides.

Example with Marignon:
Their Grand Masters can get up to Fire 4 or Astral 3 with a lucky random pick (click on the question mark next to the magic paths to see what they can get). With that and research in Construction they can forge a Flaming Helmet or a Starshine Skullcap, bringing them to Fire 5 or Astral 4. The Conjuration spells "Phoenix Power", "Light of the Northern Star" and "Power of the Spheres" can be used to further increase their paths to Fire 7 and Astral 6, for battles at least.

[Fenris99]

OK, so the magic level of your mages is based on the nation that you play?

[llamabeast]

I guess my issue with them is that they are virtually the only nation he ever plays.



Who? Me? I've only played them once! I do really like them though.

I remember I spent my first Dominions demo game carting a single fire-2 mage around, getting him lots of experience, waiting for him to become fire-3. It was very frustrating! (It turns out it doesn't work like that at all).


So you're telling me that you can research all these powerful spells and have no one capable of casting them?



You have to plan what you research for the mages you've got. And always you will have heaps of spells you can't cast.

For example, as Marignon, you should research Evocation, to give you fireballs and stuff. Evocation also includes water spells (like water strike), air spells (like lightning) and so on - but they're no use to you, so you might as well ignore them.

When on the research screen you can press the 'f' key to show only fire spells - and equivalently 'w' for water, etc.. The only non-obvious one is 's' for astral. This can be very useful for seeing what spells will be useful for you.

After a while you also get a feel for what each school is likely to do. The most obvious ones are Evocation, for directly attacking people (fireballs, lightning), conjuration for summoning things, alteration for buffs (spells that make your mages and troops tougher) and construction for enabling forging of items. There are some non-obvious things though - for instance Phoenix Power, which gives fire mages an extra level of fire magic in battle, is in Conjuration.

Although there are a bajillion spells, they are all quite distinct, and after a while you will get to know a few that you like. If you're Marignon, you'll get to like Fireball, Falling Fires (both evocation) and Phoenix Power.

[Nikolai]

> So you're telling me that you can research all these powerful spells and have no one capable of casting them?

That is very often happening. Each nation has strong magic paths, weak magic paths, paths on pretender, and paths on independant mages. First two are fixed, third you design, and fourth is random.

Some people will go out of ways to make sure that their pretender covers all path nation is missing. Others make sure that he can forge boosters for strong paths of nation. Others concentrate on making sure he can summon other mages that complete the nation. Others forsake some paths completely.

As many strategies as players. In MP, trade can close holes.

Example: MA Man has many, many air mages, but no one has solid chance of getting Air magic at level 4. But that is level required to forge items that make air magic stronger, and many awesome air spells need much more than level 3 air magic.

So some players will forget that, and really hurt. Others will make sure their Pretender has air magic at level 4 or more. Others will look at nations list in an MP game, and say "Cealum is in game, and he will want to trade air boosters for nature boosters". And then the game starts, and Cealum is closest neighbor, and only wants to trade daggers, blade first.

[Fenris99]

How do I get gems?

[Fenris99]

Nikolai said:

That is very often happening. Each nation has strong magic paths, weak magic paths, paths on pretender, and paths on independant mages. First two are fixed, third you design, and fourth is random.

Some people will go out of ways to make sure that their pretender covers all path nation is missing. Others make sure that he can forge boosters for strong paths of nation. Others concentrate on making sure he can summon other mages that complete the nation. Others forsake some paths completely.

Ahh this is very interesting.

[Amhazair]

First, you have a gem income from your capitol, this will generally be of a type your nation is strong in. Then, in each province there is a chance there will be 1-4 magical site, most of which will give you gems of some kind. A few of those sites you will discover when you conquer the province, but most will remain hidden until you search for them.

Searching can be done in two ways: first a mage can search the province he's in for sites in the paths he possesses. Sites come in levels from 1-4, and you search in the path and levels of your mage. So a Fire3 Astral3 mage will find most, but not all fire and astral sites, but will not uncover sites of other paths. Second, there are site-searching spells spread around the different research schools. There is one for each path of magic, and casting that spell (select the 'cast ritual spell' order on a mage in a lab province once you have the appropiate research, then select the spell in question from the list you get) will cost some gems, and will search a province of your choise for all sites in that path. There are also 2 spells that search for sites of multiple paths, but one is underwater only, and the other very expensive.

Thus getting more sites of the paths your nation is strong in is quite easy, as you will have both the mages to search manually, or to cast the remote search spells, and the gems needed to cast those spells (from the gem income of your capitol), but finding sites in other paths will be harder. There are several ways to do this, the easiest being designing what is known as a 'rainbow pretender' A rainbow pretender uses a pretender chassis with cheap access to new paths (take a look at most 'human' pretenders, they fit the bill perfectly), and will buy low levels (often 2, sometimes more) of magic in as many paths as possible. This is useful for finding sites, and if you take care when choosing your magic picks (this will come with experience) will allow you to forge many useful items your national mages might not be able to forge.

[Nikolai]

> How do I get gems?

Your capital generates some.

Magic sites are assigned randomly to provinces at start, or even appear sometimes out of their own. Some are hidden, so you have to search for them with mages.

Some items generate gems every month.

Some lucky events give you gems.

And there is trade in MP.

And there are spells that give you gems periodically or in one go. And if you are total bastard, you can hunt your population down to sacrifice them as slaves, or you can kill them to send crows to collect death gems (not recommeded)

There are no simple answers in Dominions III. :-)

[Fenris99]

Thanks for the answers, guys.

The manual is good but it doesn't cover everything.

I'm sure I will have more questions after I play tonight. I'm reading the Marignon strategy page, they look straightforward for a beginner.

[Edi]

As far as what determines the paths of your mages, the magic paths are an intrinsic part of the unit itself, so a mage may have certain paths fixed and some randomly determined (randoms can only be less than 100% sure, so not all of your mages always get them all).

Units that have been intended for a specific nation ahve been designed with that nation in mind, so for example the magic paths of mages reflect that.

[Yrkoon]

As well as empowering your mages (permanent increase for a lot of gems) you can also use the gems in combat to boost your level temporarily. You can use one gem per spell to increase you level by one. It's a good way of casting spells you would normally not be able too.

For example a weak fire mage with one level in fire magic can use one gem to cast phoenix power (level 2 fire spell). Phoenix power boost your level in fire by 1 for the whole battle. You mage is now level 2. By using another gem, your mage can cast a level 3 spell. All of a sudden your crappy mage is quite deadly.

[Yrkoon]

There is also communions and sabbaths to increase your mages' power. You can find more about those in the forums, and propably in Edi's FAQ.

[Fenris99]

This is all great advice, thank you

[Taqwus]

Just note that blood magic is different. Non-trivially useful blood-magic magic sites are quite rare. The vast majority of your sacrificial blood slaves will need to be gathered by your commanders (preferably blood mages -- everybody else is bad at it) spending their turns to do so, thus costing you commander-turns as well as a mix of population/income as you patrol to keep the resulting unrest down.

Mictlan (EA,LA) is a bit difficult to start with, as it's completely dependent on blood for even spreading dominion.

[KissBlade]

Fenris99 said:
This is all great advice, thank you



Hey I noticed you mentioned buying the game in downtown NYC. I live in Astoria, NYC just so ya know. =)

[Fenris99]

KissBlade said:

Fenris99 said:
This is all great advice, thank you



Hey I noticed you mentioned buying the game in downtown NYC. I live in Astoria, NYC just so ya know. =)

Well hello neighbor. I live upstate but I work in Manhattan.

[Ubercat]

Nikolai said:
> How do I get gems?

And there are spells that give you gems periodically or in one go. And if you are total bastard, you can hunt your population down to sacrifice them as slaves, or you can kill them to send crows to collect death gems (not recommeded)

There are no simple answers in Dominions III. :-)



How do you kill your population for death gems? I never heard of that. Can any faction do it?

-Ubercat

[Nikolai]

Taxes at 200% and pillage, then send the crows (air spell) I did say it was not recommended. :-) But I have done it with Cealum because I had air gems to burn, and no death income.

[Meglobob]

Nikolai said:
Taxes at 200% and pillage, then send the crows (air spell) I did say it was not recommended. :-) But I have done it with Cealum because I had air gems to burn, and no death income.



How many death gems could you pull in doing this?

Surely you cant get enough death gems to be a useful strategy? Wouldn't alchemy be better? Even at air-->astral-->death, ie...1/4 the air in death gems.

[HotNifeThruButr]

I think a good way to start getting some perspective on things in the game is to start by picking a unit that has reasonably strong troops (cough MA Vanheim cough) and a pretender design with good enough scales to use those troops (probably a stay-at-home or site searching pretender, for now).

Play on a map that's not overwhelming big with not an overwhelming number of people (cough Aran, six people cough cough).

Set the enemy nations to those nations that you think are interesting, because you'll get to see a glimpse of what they have to offer.

Now, once you've started your game, look at your mages and then look at your spellbook. Pick one or two spells that are either low or middle tech and that seem interesting to you (Thunder Strike is always fun) and research straight for it.

Fight, search for sites, build temples, and do whatever you would do while you're waiting to get the spell researched. Once you have gotten the spell researched, bring your mages who can cast it along with your army and play with the spell a little, as well as any other spells you happened to pick up.

You should have met your neighbors by now and seen a bit of what they can do. If any of their troops look interesting, you can start the next game as that nation and start the process over.

It might also be helpful to make three games wherein you choose and control all the nations in the early, middle, and late eras, so you can have a quick reference to all their units and mages.

[Nikolai]

> How many death gems could you pull in doing this?
> Surely you cant get enough death gems to be a useful strategy? Wouldn't alchemy be better? Even at air-->astral-->death, ie...1/4 the air in death gems.

I do not rememeber exact ratio. I know I was not satisfied, and decided not to do it. Which is why I said 'Not recommended'. I think that spell needs balance.

[Fenris99]

Thanks for th advice, HotNifeThruButr . I shall try that tonight.

I played out a game last night. I didn't lose but I was losing when I went to bed. It seems to me that after turn 2 or 3 you have to conquer a new territory every couple of turns to stay competitive. Because that's what the AI will be doing.

In RTS I tend to be a turtler but I see that's not really an option here.

[VedalkenBear]

Re: Raven Feast, the formula is right in the book. 'The exchange rate is gems = sqrt(corpses)/3.' (DomIII Rulebook, p.208). Since it is 4 gems, the 'normal' conversion rate from Air:Death is 4:1. Substituting that into the formula, you can solve for how many corpses you need to generate how many gems. Here is a quick table.

Gem Corpses
1 9
2 36
3 81
4 144
5 225
6 324
etc.

Note this means that if there are 36+ corpses in a province, you will receive more gems than through alchemy. The really interesting part is that at 144+ corpses, you get at least a 1:1 ratio.

This is in addition to the fact that it eliminates all corpses in the territory, which can be useful in its own right.

The nations I can see this primarily useful for are EA Caelum (definitely can cast it, have Death mages with no Death income, IIRC), EA Ermor (would need pretender, but same dilemma), and, ironically, LA Ermor. Again, needs a Pretender, but their entire engine runs on Death gems, and they have the corpses to burn (almost literally).

Fenris: In regard to expansion, you generally want to take one province _or more_ starting from the third turn.

[Fenris99]

VedalkenBear said:
Fenris: In regard to expansion, you generally want to take one province _or more_ starting from the third turn.

Gah! That's a lot!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[VedalkenBear]

But, IMO, virtually required. General flow for first few turns:

1) Prophetize your non-scout commander, recruit mercs if you can (assuming they're any good), purchase troops and mage (if possible)

2) Send initial army + Mercs after easiest nearby province. Keep recruiting troops. One idea is to build another 'leader commander' to keep bringing new recruits to the army so that your initial commander doesn't lose turns going back to pick up more troops.

[Fenris99]

How do I defend territories that have been conquered? Do I leave armies behind or keep pushing forward with them?

[llamabeast]

Recruit "province defense" (PD). To do this, find the "Defense" number in the top left bar thing, and increase it. Then you create a standing militia that will defend your province, that automatically replenishes any losses it suffers and which costs no upkeep. It's very helpful.

[thejeff]

The general early game advice of averaging at least one province/turn for the first year applies as long as you have indies to conquer. Turtling vs rushing really begins when you start running into other nations.

In the expansion, in an SP game, don't worry too much about defense. Independents don't attack, so all you have to worry about is random events. Once you have a border with another nation, defend that. Buying up PD is the usual defense, maybe supported by a few troops to cover your PD's weaknesses.

[Endoperez]

As for buying PD:

level 1 always shows you who conquered the province. Spending 1 gp for that is very much worth it.
1-3 PD, depending on nation, is enough to beat enemy scouts, small groups of fliers, etc solo guys that your enemy might want to use. In multiplayer, most provinces have PD in this area.
11 PD has a small chance of finding and fighting against stealthy enemy forces or commanders. In single-player, buying some PD in provinces neighbouring enemy nations can keep the AI from attacking you.
21 PD has a bit better chance at finding the enemies, and it starts getting troops of better quality. All nations get another type of commander, who is sometimes a mage or a priest. This much PD is rarely used even in SP, but in some cases having lots of automatically replenishing units is worth it even if you can't script them - even in MP.

Quality of provincial defense varies wildly between nation. The nation list at the end of the manual also describes the units the nation gets from its PD. Some nations have excellent PD, some have useful PD, some have very, very weak PD.

[Fenris99]

I'm confused. Province Defense automatically recruits troops?

[llamabeast]

If someone attacks your province, the troops you will have in the battle will be any actual troops you have there, plus an extra force of a size determined by how much PD you have there. They will fight in the battle for you, but you can't see them apart from that. You can't move them around. If another enemy attacks, they will be there again, fully replenished. They are meant to represent local militias and defensive forces.

There is at least some explanation of PD in the manual. Also in the nation descriptions for each nation, it tells you what defenders you get for each point of PD (e.g. you might get an archer and a light infantry for every point). For PD values above 20 you start getting stronger, more elite troops present - but mostly PD above 20 is a waste of money anyway.

[Fenris99]

I see. Thank you.

Will the AI attack my provinces a soon as it comes in contact with me?

[VedalkenBear]

AFAIK, the AI picks on players and territories that it sees as weak. For the player aspect, this is generally comparing the Army Size graph scores. For the territory aspect, this is generally a place with no troops and little/no PD. So, as should be pretty commonsensical, having a large army, and having it at your borders with an enemy, should deter that opponent from attacking you.

[llamabeast]

The AI is always either at war or at peace with you. It tells you when it goes from peace to war (it sends you a message declaring war), but unhelpfully it doesn't tell you if it decides to stop attacking you.

If you attack an AI it will become at war with you without telling you. If you fight it by both moving on the same turn into an independent province though, it won't take offence.

[Fenris99]

llamabeast said:
The AI is always either at war or at peace with you. It tells you when it goes from peace to war (it sends you a message declaring war), but unhelpfully it doesn't tell you if it decides to stop attacking you.



Heh. I must have missed the message when it declared war on me, then. I'll have to pay more attention to all those between turn messages I guess.

[rdonj]

Just for the record, if you really, really want to turtle, using lots of PD (40 is probably sufficient for just about any nation) along with small armies (40-80 units large) along all your borders with the AI will make it so that even if the AI does attack you, you won't really lose any troops. Just note that 40 PD costs upwards of 700 gold and is not necessarily the most efficient use of your money... on the other hand, if the AI does keep attacking you in a province where you've invested that much PD, they'll undoubtedly waste far more than 700 gold trying to invade it. Just don't try that in mp.

[Nikolai]

Note that province defense is VERY VERY different from nation to nation. Some have excellent PD that will stop, with 11 strength a barbarian invasion and with 21 strength a barbarian horde (very common random events) Other have such crappy PD that is not worth anything at all.

It is good to get a taste of PD strength. One easy way is to start test game with turmoil and misfortune, and wait for indy attack. See how your capital defenders do.

Right now I am playing game with very crappy PD. My capital lost to 34(!) barbarians. Now I am keeping reaction force to clear barbarians from my inner provinces.

In MP you seldom buy more than 1 PD in peace, or 11 PD in war. Yes, sometimes you want to create quick and cheap cannon fodder to shield real troops, and sometimes you do make trap for enemy... but PD against a player is worthless without real troops (and mages).

[Tharsonius]

don't believe the manual about giant PD
"province defense is the game's best..." (p.115) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[VedalkenBear]

Tharsonius: Actually, the rulebook is right, in a purely mathematical sense. Almost every PD cost-per-unit is ridiculously low. Let's use Arcoscephale (EA) as an example.

At 1 PD, you get a Myrmidon Champion, a Peltast, and 2x Cardaces. Using CBM gold costs (which is lower than vanilla costs, in this case), a Peltast and two Cardaces are worth 24g. Since you get this per point of PD, this is far more efficient than simply recruiting them.

Let's say you recruit 10 Peltasts and 20 Cardaces. For PD, that's 55g. 'Normal' recruitment would cost 240g. That means, should that province get attacked, you get a greater than 4:1 return on your investment.

Note: this also ignores upkeep on those units.

Now if you get twice that, in normal recruitment that's 480g, while PD now costs 190g. Not even 3:1 in that case. But overall it's still more efficient.

Please differentiate, though, between efficient and effective. I am not at all claiming that you'd want to do this, since many/most PD troops are not nearly worth their cost (even under CBM).

[Ironhawk]

Fenris99: If you want to pursue a turtle strategy against the AI, then the most important thing to do is control the bottleneck provinces. Instead of having a wide border with the AI, try to find the key provs which control access to large parts of your empire's interior. If you control the bottle neck provinces and put a ton of PD into them, the AI will brainlessly just keep ramming itself into them with no hope of victory. In this way you can gain almost perfect protection from the AI with the least investment.

Also, you probably dont want to build a fort in those provinces, just so you dont have to constantly remember to tell your commanders to Patrol (if they are set to Defend they will sit in the fort while the enemy takes the province around you).

[llamabeast]

Vedalken: I think Tharsonius meant giant PD in the sense of Jotun PD. The manual claims it's good, whereas actually it's one of the worst in the game.

[Fenris99]

Thanks, ironhawk.

I'll do some more experimenting tonight.

Any preferences on pretender types?

[VedalkenBear]

Ironically, a combat pretender would probably work best. Being able to take bottleneck provinces before your opponents is very important, and while your main armies mass in those provinces, your pretender can take independents on another front.

[llamabeast]

What nation are you playing?

[Fenris99]

llamabeast said:
What nation are you playing?

I started a game as Marignon.

I don't see the pretenders as being powerful enough to conquer an indie by themselves. I got the Wyrm in my first game killed on turn 3 by attacking a province by himself.

[Torin]

you have to give the wyrm dominion 8 or more(the more the better)
it will gain awe ability.
and will be difficult to kill unless fighting the lizardmen shaman indies.

[Fenris99]

Torin said:
you have to give the wyrm dominion 8 or more(the more the better)
it will gain awe ability.
and will be difficult to kill unless fighting the lizardmen shaman indies.

How do you raise the dominion stat?

[thejeff]

In pretender design only. Dominion of 9+ gives awe.

He should be able to handle anything but knights and heavy cavalry. Avoid the lizardmen because they'll curse him.

[Shovah32]

At pretender creation. Dominion strength 9 gives awe+0, I think thats a 50% chance for a 10 morale unit not to attack you. At dominion 10 you get awe +2.

I personally like earth magic on my Wyrms. You can get the protection buff spells(20 protection from ironskin is nice. Later 25 from invunerability is great) from alteration and reinvigoration from summon earthpower in conjuration.

[llamabeast]

An alternative is to put a cool bless on your pretender. Or rather, you pick strong magic for your pretender so that your troops get a strong bless when they are blessed by a priest.

For Marignon, try F9S9 (fire-9 astral-9). The Baphomet is an ideal pretender for this. This will make your flagellants vicious, and your knights even more powerful. You can bless an entire army at once (well, all the sacred troops in it - non-sacred troops can't be blessed) using your holy-3 recruitable priests.

[Fenris99]

I didn't see where at pretender creation you can raise the dominion stat.

I'll try a new game tonight and I'll try to give my pretender a high dominion.

[Ironhawk]

Its under the Dominion section Fenris. Same place as the Scales. At the top of the dialog there are some candles and the text "Dominion Strength". Just click on that. Costs are similar to extra picks in magic paths.

[Nikolai]

Fenris99, there are many pretenders that are "powerful enough to conquer an indie by themselves", but they need research spells to use. For example, a ghost king with water, air and astral can go:

Air shield, personal luck, mirror image, quicken self, attack closest.

This is very powerful, enough to anihilate at least most indies, and takes only Alteration 2. At other paths/levels you will get other great self-buffs like Ironskin, Mistform, Body Etherial, Summon Earth Power, Fire shield, Personal Regenration, Soul Vortex, etc...

[KissBlade]

Marignon is quite easy to learn basics with. In the beginning pick a Wyrm or a Dragon. A Dragon can solo most indie provinces by just scripting fire x5 + attack (anything really).
Wyrms can solo with dom 9 or 10 (I prefer 10, magicless but 9 is almost as good too) Without high dom, take either astral or earth and sit him at home researching buffs till he can lead a small force of indies to start conquering himself. Once you get the right buffs for him, he should break off into soloing and let an indie commander to conquer stuff with the troops your wyrm was leading.
Regarding solo pretenders, avoid: Lizardmen, Barbarians (unless you have awe which really kills Barbs), Xbows, Heavy Cavalry/Knights <= though this last batch is pretty tough to deal with with standard troops even. Prepare a big line of militias to soak up the lances), and Amazons.
Your first army should pick up the first turn of troops (prophetize the commander), script him to fantacisim, smite, smite, smite, smite, cast spells.
You want to keep your pikemen on guard commander formation and put your commander right on front of your archer block.
Now the crucial thing to learn from all this is decoying. Always keep one (or two) seperate troops on front and a bit to the side on "hold and attack". These will soak up the first two volleys of archers and bad stuff. Constantly replace these decoys with your guys with battle wound, prioritizing battle fright (MAKE SURE THESE ARE NEVER IN YOUR MAIN GROUP) and diseased (they're going to die anyway).
Anyway, for the most part of the game, always make tons of archers + xbows. They are by far the most effective troops and your heavy infantries should mainly be there to soak up the extra resources you're not using. Learn to love your ranged guys when it comes to nations with standardized human troops. Also, always make pure mages from your fort provinces. Never recruit nation commanders and scouts since you can grab them from indies. Marignon can set up a secondary fort for spies so you might consider one just for that. Learn to love falling fires with marignon and look towards seraphs eventually. Another thing, when designing scales, ALWAYS take Order x3. (Unless you're LA Ermor ...), misfortune 1 is pretty safe and for the most part, so is Sloth 3 since you mainly need one or two mountain/forest neighboring provinces to conquer to give you all the resources you need. A point of cold/heat isn't bad either since the income penalty is effectively only 2.5% for the first point due to the changing temperature per season. I always take magic 3 as well but drain 2 is fairly common. GL =)

[jimkehn]

Except, I think if you prophetize your commander he will be a level 3 Priest. Isn't Fanatacism an H4 spell?? Maybe KB meant cast Divine Blessing, which an H3 Prophet can cast. Only helps if you have sacred troops on the battlefield, though.

[KissBlade]

My memory might be off, my laptop is sputtering so I can't play Dom lately but I thought h3 gave you Fanaticisim in Dom3?

[Sir_Dr_D]

No, it is H4.

[KissBlade]

Ah right, nevermind, it was smite that dom 3 took down. Yeah, just cast Sermon, Smite x4 then. =) Thanks, (haven't played dom for awhile cause my laptop with it went clunky >_> and it doesn't fly well on Vista)

[Fenris99]

Thank you for the advice, KissBlade .

The game is not easy. It seems I have to build up for at least 3 turns before I can start grabbing indie provinces. The Ai seems to be doing it sooner. It also seems that you have to have a long view on what you're going to do; you can't just face challenges as they come. You have to have some master plan.

And I'm playing on a small map with easy Ai. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

Fenris99 said:The game is not easy. It seems I have to build up for at least 3 turns before I can start grabbing indie provinces. The Ai seems to be doing it sooner.



Look to be conquering 1 province per turn from turn 2 (ie...1 turn to strengthen your starting army), aim for 15+ provinces by early spring year 2.

This is minimium, some nations you should expand faster with.

[Endoperez]

That's the minimum in competitive multiplayer. In the beginning, and against the AI, you don't have to hurry. Depending on your tastes, you might never start playing against other people, and thus might never feel the need for such a rapid early expansion. It's easy to do with some tactics, and some nations have an easier time than others, so you'll probably manage to do it at some point even if you aren't going all out for it.

[Edi]

Meglobob said:

Fenris99 said:The game is not easy. It seems I have to build up for at least 3 turns before I can start grabbing indie provinces. The Ai seems to be doing it sooner.



Look to be conquering 1 province per turn from turn 2 (ie...1 turn to strengthen your starting army), aim for 15+ provinces by early spring year 2.

This is minimium, some nations you should expand faster with.


Once more, minimum with what independent strength? Indies 5, doable. Indies 7+, forget it, province per turn from turn 3 and you're likely not going to be able to do more unless you have good luck with the neighbors and good quality units in decent numbers.

[SlipperyJim]

With strength-9 indies (all I ever play), I can usually take a province every two turns when I get started. I'll take a turn or two to beef up my starting army, and then I go a-conquering.

After I've conquered the ring of provinces around my home fortress, then I can usually put a second army in the field and speed up to one (or more) provinces per turn.

I probably wouldn't be competitive in multiplayer, but I'm more-than-fast enough for SP. Sometimes, the AI will get a little ahead of me in the early game, but I always overtake it once I can get the war machine rollin'....

---

PS:
As others have written, the key to fast early expansion is Mercenaries. Hire up any mercs that are worthwhile, and use them to snag provinces while you build up a solid army of national troops.

Remember that your mercs are generally disposable, so use them appropriately. Put the Brave Breakers, the Black Fists, and Dante's Stingers on the front lines and let them do the hard fighting for you. You're paying them to die for you! Meanwhile, you're recruiting a strong force of whatever your best national troops happen to be. Once the mercs are dead, you'll have a company of Helhirdlings (http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dominions_3:_The_Awakening/Nations/Helheim) (or whatever national troops are best for you) ready to go forth and spread the word of your Pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Edratman]

Fenris99 said:
The game is not easy.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



That about sums up the game. The more you play, the more intracies you discover. If you read the threads from the MP gamers you will discover tricks and depths you will never have thought of on your own.

Pretender/magic/scales set up is almost a complete game within itself. If you ask 5 players what is best, you will be lucky to be offered only 7 opinions. Where you set your options regarding indy strength, and % gold/resources/supplies and research speed also significently alters the game strategy. And SP is an entirely different game from MP.

If you play SP, you will develop your own preferences for settings. They will be absolutely correct for you and your expansion/research strategies will develop to reflect these settings. I myself play very difficult or impossible AI, indy 9 and leave everything else at the default (except for renaming- always allow renaming - you can rename commanders to "prophet", "scout", "5 death", "6 Nature", "Rainbow shield maker" or whatever you choose to help minimize confusion because the stock names are confusing and will also repeat.) It took me months to work up to "Impossible" AI settings.

Slippery Jim's advice on expansion rate is right on the money in my opinion, based on my also using indy strength of 9. This changes somewhat depending on which nation you are playing (some have better/more affordable early game troops), what settings you have chosen and your starting location, but it is correct. The mercenary advice is also spot on. Bid 5 gold above the mercenary asking price and you will always get them.

My expansion standard is to be ahead of the AI by about turn 10 on the province chart if I don't use mercenaries. If there are good mercenaries available in the first 2 or 3 turns and I'm playing a game where I will buy them, I will be ahead of the AI at the outset of the game. (For my first 6 months of playing, I always bought the good mercenaries. Now it depends upon my mood and the affordable early troops of the nation I am playing.)

This is a great forum and community, as you should be able to discern from the responses. Ask any question and you will get sound advice.