Inconsistant outcome

[TruePurple]

I had a very nice prophet get killed in battle. But when I reviewed the battle the prophet never even got hit, kicking butt all the way to the end of the field as the enemy retreated. I was so upset I abandoned that game :p

So a new game, two different battles, each a hero picks up a injury even though the battle says they shouldn't have. The second time I know for a fact the hero never got hit because he was wearing copper plate and it hadn't discharged (and up to the end of the battle he had no injuries, didn't even really make it to the front lines he was so far back)

I think all three examples the heroes were set to eventually melee attack.(can't remember with one of them)

Seems if I give a hero a command to attack it stands a chance of randomly getting injury or death after a battle, even if it never got such IN the battle. That or the battle playback just isn't showing correctly, but I haven't seen the issue with regular units.

Anyone seen this? Is this a known bug, or is it ... intentional?

Also anyone seen a issue where your troops seem most likely to run off on you when the enemy starts retreating & your winning? And if they make it to the end of the screen before the enemy can be destroyed/make it to the other end, those troops are gone?(as in no more, even though you keep running troops if you don't win, but you don't if you do win)

[NTJedi]

TruePurple said:
...

Seems if I give a hero a command to attack it stands a chance of randomly getting injury or death after a battle, even if it never got such IN the battle.

...

Anyone seen this? Is this a known bug, or is it ... intentional?



This rarely happens yet does happen once in a blue moon. This has nothing to do with giving the commander/mage the command attack. If you watched the last arena match my spellcaster SC(Battle#3) was killed despite the battle showing him with 36hitpoints at the end of battle.

Illwinter will have a better chance of fixing this issue is if we find a way to accurately reproduce the issue repeatedly.

[VedalkenBear]

I had this happen with an 'army' of 10 Rishis (guarded by about 5 normal troops) Enslaving/Charming everything. But I lost all the troops. At the time, I had thought the computer got confused as to the 'final allegiance' of the turned troops.

About all I have for you guys.

[Torin]

happened to me more than once. 2 times sc golems dying in the report and losing the fight but in the replay they win.

[TruePurple]

So you had it happen with regular units too?

What about the second issue, of units running off on you right when your winning, and if you win and a units managed to run off on you then its destroyed.

[Torin]

mercenaries fleeing are lost. also there must be a province to run to, otherwise fleeing units are killed.

[TruePurple]

Except nonmerc units are lost, if you win, even if your surrounded by provinces. I only get to keep running units if I lose the battle it seems.

And why do they so often wait to run till after your winning?? Gosh we better get out of here, we got them massively outnumnbered, they might try something!

[Ewierl]

NTJedi said:This rarely happens yet does happen once in a blue moon. This has nothing to do with giving the commander/mage the command attack. If you watched the last arena match my spellcaster SC(Battle#3) was killed despite the battle showing him with 36hitpoints at the end of battle.

Illwinter will have a better chance of fixing this issue is if we find a way to accurately reproduce the issue repeatedly.



I know I've submitted save files with the bug in them, info is out there. AFAIK the bug is caused by different random number generators; it happens when a MP game is hosted on one computer type (e.g. PC) and played on another (e.g. a Mac). The real battle resolution is determined once at host level, but the replay is generated at the player level, so it's possible for the replay to end up incorrect once in a blue moon if it handles random numbers differently.

[thejeff]

That was the old bug, probably still exists.

I've recently seen incorrect replays in SP games.
Viewed on the "host", obviously.
So there's something else going on.

[Torin]

yes, in SP theres no different versions.
if you have no provinces of yours next to the battle, fleing units are killed.

[TruePurple]

Yeah all mine were in SP

[Agrajag]

I find it more likely that the problem is in specific calculations in battle resolutions rather than a problem with random numbers. For example, using a different function for checking morale in the replay phase then the hosting phase.
What you are talking about (Ewierl) is IIRC a bug that has been squashed long ago where on different OSs the random code got evaluated differently (specifically, in a "if(random()>random)()" on some OSs the left one was resolved first and on other the right one), which lead to wildly different results. This case is a bit more subtle, and I'm guessing that it's an SP game, so was hosted and replayed on exactly the same machine.
I'm pretty sure a save that shows the bug would be useful for Illwinter, especially if you can get a save from one turn before it happens.

[TruePurple]

Torin said:
if you have no provinces of yours next to the battle, fleing units are killed.




me said:Except nonmerc units are lost, if you win, even if your surrounded by provinces. I only get to keep running units if I lose the battle it seems.

And why do they so often wait to run till after your winning?? Gosh we better get out of here, we got them massively outnumnbered, they might try something!

[Torin]

dont understand what are you talking about, TP.

[TruePurple]

Damn I already explained it all, fine I'll try again.

I'm fighting a weaker enemy, I've destroyed many of their units and most or all of them are fleeing.

Suddenly some weaker morale units will run. They will run despite all your enemy running and you outnumber/outpower the enemy. Especially if that group suffered much in losses during the battle.

Then it becomes about the enemy reaching the end of the screen or being destroyed before my insane fleeing troops reach the end of the screen. If I win the battle those fleeing nonmerc units will have vanished, even though I control provinces around the area I won.

Do you understand now? If not you'll need to be more specific in what confuses you.

[thejeff]

Because morale checks are based on what has happened to that squad, not on the larger state of the battle.

Once a squad has taken enough damage, they'll start making morale checks every turn. When they fail one, they'll retreat.

If they all make it off the field before the enemy does, you lose.
That all seems straightforward, if a little strange http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've never seen the disappearing troops though. They'll certainly be detached from their commanders and scattered, but I've never noticed losing them. Do commanders disappear?

[TruePurple]

I've not had issues with the commanders fleeing, especially and win too.

If I lose the battle fleeing nonmerc units appear in nearby provinces. Its only if I win that they disappear altogether.

Also units will sometimes wait till all the enemy is fleeing and I'm clearly winning before they flee. Actually very often thats exactly when they start fleeing. Which makes no sense.

Noone else is troubled by either aspects of this problem?

[VedalkenBear]

Well, does this happen with a variety of nations, or just a few? Do you use many small squads, or few large squads? Does this happen with high-morale troops in addition to low-morale troops?

I would think that more detail would be useful.

[PyroStock]

I've never had fleeing units disappear. Win or lose, they are either in the province or my nearby provinces.

I have had battle reports show losses that did not take place in the battle I watched, but that's rare. In SP the game always goes by the report.

[Torin]

could you attach the turn file TP?

[TruePurple]

I don't have one, this is just something I've experienced a few times and figured I'd add it to the thread.

I could maybe keep a eye out for one next time. But between the forced autosave bit and alt tab/minimizing while the game is running being a pain in the ***..

Anyone ever have units retreat on them the moment all of the enemy decides to flee or even slightly latter?

[Torin]

yes, they dont want to get killed and dont care for your kingdom (maybe).

but dissappearing routed units i never happened to have (or didnt notice).

[VedalkenBear]

TP: I _have_ had units retreat after, ostensibly, all of the opponent's units are retreating. Generally, this will happen when a few archers on the other side aren't _really_ routing, and they cause a morale check on my unit(s) which fail.

[llamabeast]

Never seen disappearing troops either. Keep the trn file next time you see it.

As for your troops retreating after the enemy are routed: I don't think it's a bug, just chance.

[Agrajag]

If you win, any troops of yours that retreated should be in one of your nearby provinces. This is strange.
Is it possible that all nearby provinces were owned by the enemy at one point during that turn, just not at the end of the turn?
If so, then its possible that sometimes during the middle of the turn your troops really didn't have anywhere to route to and that's when you fought (and thus lost your retreating troops.)