Minor German OOB error

[PatG]

OOB 16 Germany Formation 561 Capt A/Cars uses Munitions LKW as the template unit giving munitions carriers rather than armoured cars.

[DRG]

Hmmmmm...... so it does. I'll look into that. Thanks.

Don

[Shan]

While you're at it - German OOB, some minor points:

Unit 40 - StuGII G (also found under many more slots) - has a bow MG. Can anyone confirm that it really had one?
I would say: no - I could nowhere find a StuGIII version with a bow MG. The AAMG with a protective shield is fine as an addition later in the war.

Some minor translation problems:

Unit 78 'Heeresfahrzeug' should be renamed... it's simply a small horse wagon which may carry the lIG18 and the like, you could call it 'Karren' - or call it 'leichter Feldwagen', abbreviated 'le. Feldwagen' as the Feldwagen already exists (Heeresfahrzeug = army vehicle)

Formation 401 - 'Ingenieurtrager' (?!) should also be renamed: It has a single bulldozer assigned, which is correctly named 'Planierraupe' - so why not name it Planierraupe

Unit 455 - 'Munitionwagen' would be 'MunitionSwagen'

[Brummbar]

I found something from my ASL day's on the StuG IIIG. In the DYO section of the game they list a StuG IIIG(L) as having a CMG and AAMG. The (L) meaning late model. It also stated that not all late models were produced with this addidion but the game peice in question was.
Just my 2 cents worth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DRG]

Shan said:
While you're at it - German OOB, some minor points:

Unit 40 - StuGII G (also found under many more slots) - has a bow MG. Can anyone confirm that it really had one?
I would say: no - I could nowhere find a StuGIII version with a bow MG.



Hmmmmm....interesting. Yes, this does appear to be wrong and it appears to have been wrong for years. I will dig into this one a bit deeper as it's more than a little odd this would have been missed for nearly 10 years given the number of people willing to debate how many rivets should be in the sideskirts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

( but stranger things have happened )

There is something about this though that nags at an old memory of this being discussed in the past but I will put it on the "to-do" list for investigation.

Don

[Shan]

It's not a big deal anyways. Overall the German OOB is probably about as correct as it will get...

About the StuGIII - if you consider the way it's built and meant to use, then I can't imagine how to fit a bow MG. They had only a 4-man crew, which means: no radio guy + no space on the rifgt side of the hull for a bow MG - this area was most likely used for ammo storage, given the cramped conditions inside. I am sure digging a bit would produce some inside photos or sketches to confirm this.

[JohnHale]

On the subject of StuGs: why do we have both a StuGIIIA and 'B in the game? They seem to be identical.

[DRG]

JohnHale said:

On the subject of StuGs: why do we have both a StuGIIIA and 'B in the game? They seem to be identical.



Please indicate what unit number these "StuGIIIA and 'B" are in the game. There are 10 "StuG IIIg" in the OOB's in three different unit classes none of which are identified as "A" or "B". If you can tell me the unit numbers it would be most helpful to me to tell you what the differences are ( but you might want to look close at the ammo loadouts )

Don

[AMX]

I believe he means units 35 and 320

Regarding the MG issue, maybe that's an attempt to represent the use of the gun shield?

[JohnHale]

Apologies for the oversight, Don: yes, it is the two items 35 and 320 which AMX has highlighted. Ammo loadouts and armour thickness are identical.

[Mobhack]

The service dates do differ.

Probably something that could have been covered by an a/b combined model as they are identical in game terms. However now they are in the database, deleting one or other would need a complete check of all existing scenarios to see if one or the other is used, as the removal of the thing may bork these.

About the only thing I could think of doing to these (if anything), is to make the B model an X0 radio code (common) and leave the A model with an X1 (less common) radio code.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

My mistake. I saw "StuGIIIA and 'B" and read "StuG IIIG" then couldn't find anything wrong with the "G"s http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

This addition goes back years. I went back to a copy of DOS vers 5.6 from 2002 and it was there as well and I'm betting it goes back further than that.

There is a "StuG IIIa" and a "StuG IIIb" because, in reality, there were "StuG IIIa"s and "StuG IIIb"s and for all game purposes they ARE identical . This is, I am nearly 100% sure, the result of someone in the past wanting to add more "realism" for "completness" to the OOB.

Don

[DRG]

PatG said:
OOB 16 Germany Formation 561 Capt A/Cars uses Munitions LKW as the template unit giving munitions carriers rather than armoured cars.



Now fixed. There were three captured A/C's lurking in UC 106 used by one of the OrPo formations and they now have a new UC and reside in that Capt A/Cars formation.


Don

[PanzerBob]

Just my couple pfennings worth…………………

I amended all StuG’s years ago, and do so every version of the game I've had.

Early StuG's carried a MG34 as soon as it became apparent they needed them. These were not a mounted so I've using a LMG in the second weapons slot for Ausf A-E.

The Ausf F-G had a mount for a shielded MG I know this has been added as a AAMG, but my belief is a MMG is more realistic. So all my F-G models have a MMG. I give the Late Ausf G’s a MG42 MMG.

As for a BMG or CMG I've heard of these too, but I've never seen them in any picture, so I've excluded them when they do appear. This of course is IMHO. /threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif

[Shan]

PanzerBob,

the thing with using an MMG (or a BMG - we take it as a shielded MG but use the BMG: fires only over the frontal arc and cannot be buttoned up by suppression) instead sounds reasonable. I'll have a look at the stats in comparison with the AAMG version and might adopt your model. I know that the shielded MG could also be mounted on top of the shield to function as an AAMG but they are very ineffective in this role the game so that can be sacrificed. ON the other hand, AAMGs in this game have a much-to-high precision against ground targets IMHO, they also take advantage of the FC and (in MBT) Vision ratings of the vehicle they're mounted on, which is real nonsense in most cases, so replacing them with MMGs is a bit unnecessary anyways.

[blitzkreig]

Stug Ausf A & B

Just for interest sake thought I'd post the differenace bewtween the two

Ausf A:

60 produced, produced and delivered from april to September 1940 including 30 on the Ausf B chasis whith the old Maybarch SRG 32 * 45 transmission whcih were desinated Auf A

Ausf B:

Mass porduced from July 1940 - March 1941 with 250 being made.

"This new version of the Sturmgeschutz used a SSG 77 Trasnmisson and new steering gear. Its tracks were wider and the suspension components changed accordingly. The return rollers which had been evenly spaced on previous models, were now unevenly spaced"

from "Standard catalog of German Military Vehicles" by David Doyle 2005. In game terms the only diffeneces were the service dates.

No stug ever mounted a bow machine gum by the way!

[PanzerBob]

Shan

Have not changed any for V 3.0 yet, I do agree that the AAMG is much too effective to simulate a LMG. If AAMG are confirmed as being able to only fire unbuttoned then I may develop an AAMG just to simulate the loose one carried in StuG's and StuH's.

Not for PBEM of course.

[CharlesM]

The MG on the StuG II Ausf. G fired throuh the mantlet, and I have photos of vehicles with these fitted into the Saukopfblende (sow's head mantlet). Off-hand I cannot remember whether the modification was ever made on the composite mantlets made from flat plates. I'll check. It was Bob McNamara who spotted this feature from photos he had of StuG III Gs.

[TreadHead]

Yes, a block-style mantlet was produced with a coaxial MG for the mid-production StuG III Ausf G and was introduced in June '44. And a Saukopfblend with coaxial MG was introduced in Oct '44 on the late production vehicles. There is a more lengthy discussion on this in the thread "Stug AAMG's???".

Ross

[CharlesM]

Thanks. I did some checking. Photos of the Saukopf-mounted MG are easy enough to come by; those used in the composite mantlet less so; the one posted on the AAMG discussion is one of the few I've seen. In the Opsrey on the later StuG III and IV, Tom Jentz states that the co-ax only began to be fitted into the Saukopfblende in the Spring of 1944.

[void1984]

There is a "StuG IIIa" and a "StuG IIIb" because, in reality, there were "StuG IIIa"s and "StuG IIIb"s and for all game purposes they ARE identical . This is, I am nearly 100% sure, the result of someone in the past wanting to add more "realism" for "completness" to the OOB.
I fully understand the above. Why then in OOB v5.0 the StuG IIIb has an odd SMG? (unit 035 / oob 16)

[DRG]

That unit was altered like that over 4 years ago because, as I recall, it was shown to be common practice to use the SMG for close self defense in some units so you have the StuG IIIa with only the main armament or the StuG IIIb coving pretty much the same time period with the SMG

Don