The Daily Iraq errors report

[Marcello]

OOB 17

The following units are armed with weapon n.7, the AK-74.
Units 245 407 408 433 434 435 461 462 463 466 467 468 470 471 472 476 477 488 785 786 787 788 789.
This should be replaced with weapon n.8 the AK-47.
Despite the bewildering variety of AKs employed Iraq always sticked to the 7.62mm x 39.
At most an exception may be made for some of the SF units in the 461-472 range and even there it is pretty unlikely.
For its own manufacture Iraq got a license from Yugoslavia
to make Tabuk rifle, but always in 7.62mm x 39 (Sources: Jane's, US Army Iraq Country Handbook and others).
For online references see:
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jiw/jiw_0384.html

Pretty much all the people I have asked to have confirmed me that the old iraqi military, the new one under construction (until phased out by the M16/M4 being issued) and the insurgents use AKs 7.62mm x 39. No AK-74 to be seen, not in quantity at any rate.

A 5.56mm version was also made
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jiw/jiw_0385.html
but as far as been told it was meant for export and never mass produced. No 5.45mm in any case.

[Marcello]

Now to the RPGs

The following units are armed with weapon 19, the RPG-7V.
269 408 413 434 435 461 462 477 488 518 519 520 703 740 762 770 770 774 777 779 787 988.
These should be rearmed with weapon 18, the RPG-7.

The RPG-7V is probably supposed to represent one of the high end RPG warheads. In reality however the iraqis had to make to do with the usual PG-7G/PG-7M and the likes, capable of roughly 330mm of penetration.
Some higher end weapons have been used by the insurgents but in very small quantities only and definitively were not in widespread service in the old iraqi army (or the new one for that matter).
Weapon 156 should be enough to represent those few modern RPGs.
You can read the naval explosive ordnance disposal division reports here:
https://naveodtechdiv.jeodnet.mil/IraqOIG/iraqoig.asp
The RPG warheads are under the "rocket" list. It is a very comprehensive list of the ordnance found in Iraq.

[kevineduguay1]

Staff, please read this post!

[DRG]

Yes, yes, it's been read and noted...

Don

[Marcello]

There are some issue with the availability dates of soviet weapons.
The mistake the OOB designer did was assuming that Iraq purchased soviet weapons in the postwar period. In reality this only happened after a coup which took place in 1958. Before that Iraq was strictly an US-UK client and the UK was the main source of arms.

Units 1-15-16-41-574-572-570-349-347-345-330-311-211 are AFVs. Their availability date should be changed to to february of 59.

The first shipment of armor, together with the related advisors and tech support,arrived in february of 1959.
It was composed mostly of T-34-85 but others types were present. T-54 were noted in a british intelligence report dated march 1961 and may have been shipped together with the T-34s and the SU-100s.

The following are artillery units 53-76-86-93-101-103-171-173-177-231-232-235-238-266-296-297-307-309-428-430-550.
January or february of 1959 should be an appropriate starting date.

Units 138-140-153-187-255 are aircrafts. The first planes were delivered at the end of 1958, not at the beginning.
In any case if at least a minimum of familiarization time is allowed january 1959 should be an appropriate
starting date.

Unit 340-341 JSIII. They should be eliminated. If not availability date should be changed to 2 of 1959.

Sources
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/fall_winter_2001/article03.html
(the british intelligence report)

Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991 by Kenneth Michael Pollack, pg 156 (it gives the date and some data about the first shipment of soviet armor)

The World's Armies, by Christopher Chant

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_207.shtml
(for the iraqi air force)

[DRG]

Marcello said:

The following units are armed with weapon 19, the RPG-7V.
269 408 413 434 435 461 462 477 488 518 519 520 703 740 762 770 770 774 777 779 787 988.
These should be rearmed with weapon 18, the RPG-7.

The RPG-7V is probably supposed to represent one of the high end RPG warheads. In reality however the iraqis had to make to do with the usual PG-7G/PG-7M and the likes, capable of roughly 330mm of penetration.
Some higher end weapons have been used by the insurgents but in very small quantities only and definitively were not in widespread service in the old iraqi army (or the new one for that matter).
Weapon 156 should be enough to represent those few modern RPGs.
You can read the naval explosive ordnance disposal division reports here:
https://naveodtechdiv.jeodnet.mil/IraqOIG/iraqoig.asp
The RPG warheads are under the "rocket" list. It is a very comprehensive list of the ordnance found in Iraq.



This is all useful but as you note some of the higher end units have made it to the insurgents albeit small quantities and If I removed every weapon in every OOB that was only supplied "in small quantities" there would be some howling from the " if they had it it should be in the OOB" crowd. Therefore unit 740, which isn't an army unit, doesn't qualify. Nor does 787 really but a case could be made for having them in and out

Now, this just lists the 7V's. OK, I can accept that the Iraqi army did not use the 7V. Do I assume that since you didn't mention the RPG-16 and PRG-18 also in the OOB that these were available ?? or not ?? They are a "very small quantity" item in the OOB used by only a half handful of units

Don

[Marcello]

Unit 782, ambush sappers uses weapon 156 RPG-7VR.
I purposefully did not mention it because I thought it could fill the role of "limited availability, high end RPG" for the insurgents. A PG-7VR was probably used to disable at least one Abrams after 2003.

"Do I assume that since you didn't mention the RPG-16 and PRG-18 also in the OOB that these were available ??"

RPG-16/18 were available in some numbers (not huge but some) to the iraqi military and have been found in insurgents caches. There are pictures floating around of RPG-18 toting insurgents.

[Marcello]

As I see it the RPG-7V is a questionable weapon to arm anybody in the iraqi OOB.
The denomination itself is debatable, given that the closest match in the real world (600mm of RHA penetration, single warhead) would be the PG-7L as it was discussed here in the past.
And regardless of naming conventions I have found no mention of PG-7L use in Iraq. On the other hand it seems some PG-7VR may have been used.
So I am in full agreement that one or two odd insurgent units should be armed with something better than basic
RPG-7 (or occasional RPG-18/16), but no more than that and weapon 156 RPG-7VR is the best candidate for the role.

[DRG]

OK, Sounds resonable

Don

[Marcello]

Now some random stuff.
Formations 725 and 726, Recalled Republican guard.
I do vaguely remember the issue being raised at some point during either the Garner or Bremer administration with the intent to use them to restore order, but nothing was done of it, given the uproar it would have caused. They should be deleted.

Formation 749, Guer Tanks (Guerilla tanks).
There are no reports of the post 2003 insurgents having ever used armored vehicles (there are a few reports of some technicals but that's it). The Peshmerga had some tanks but that since much before 2003, presumably captured during the 1991 struggles.
This is an old example (I can dig more recent pictures if you are interested).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish_Peshmerga_and_Iraqi_Tank.JPG

So this formation should be either deleted or made available much earlier.

[DRG]

OK, Noted. I'll look into this

Don

[Marcello]

Now some armor and other miscellaneous stuff.

Unit 12, Type 69-II. It should be rearmed with weapon 71 or 72, the D-10T (all the pictures show it with the 100mm rifled gun not the 105mm). Its availability date should be anticipated to 1983 (according to SIPRI arms trade registers) and extended to at least 2015 or the end. An X2 radio code would be also a nice change.
If the tons of pictures I have seen are an indication this tank was the workhorse of the iraqi army and was extremely common. It is still in use in limited numbers (a few tens give or take). On the other hand it is questionable that many, if any, Type 69-I were aquired. Supposedly the 100mm smoothbore variant was not very succesful and was not made in large numbers and as far the iraqis were concerned it would have required a separate ammo supply.And while I have seen zillions of Type 69-II, I never spotted a Type 69-I.

Unit 618 at a minimum and maybe even 11 should be replaced with the corrected Type 69-II.

The M60s.
Iraq is supposed to receive a significan (600-700) shipment of M60 later this year. Supplier is likely to be Greece. Tanks will be of the M60A1 Rise and M60A3 TTS varieties. So far however Iraq has never operated the type, the few M60s captured in the 80's were just parked somewhere. Therefore I suggest the following:
1) Unit 9 to reclassed as medium tank.
2) Units 9-10-37 to have availability dates starting from the second half of 2008

Some sources for this
http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2681008&C=landwar
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php

[Marcello]

Some more stuff
Unit 34, M-84A. As pretty much every source about it states
Kuwait was the only foreign customer. A small number were captured by Iraq, but that was in 1991, not in 1988 as it is in the game now.

http://www.vojska.net/eng/armed-forces/equipment/tank/m-84/
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m84.htm

Units 95 96 and 205, 155mm A-M FG, 155mm A-M FG CM and 155mm A-M Mines. I have seen no source supporting the introduction of new tube artillery designs in the 90's. They did improvise some rocket designs in that period but no tube artillery.

[Marcello]

Now to some new iraqi army equipment that is currently lacking.

BTR-94
M113A1

These two were available since summer of 2004 and in actual service since the beginning of 2005. Spartans are also mentioned but were never subsequently shown or mentioned to be in service so probably they were just parked somewhere. The BTR-94 were actively used for at least a couple of years to be then replaced by M1117 ASV.
M113s continue to be used by and delivered to the new iraqi army.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/aug2004/a080904f.html
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php

BTR-80
Delivered since 2006 and currently in service.

http://www.deagel.com/equipment/Wheeled-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles2006BTR-80-a000348001.aspx
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php

[DRG]

Re -M84
I think the M-84 was put in as a captured piece but it does appear the dates were wrong . This frequently occurs because the info the OOB designers had at the time was not as clear as it is 5 or 6 years later and the OOB designer is no longer available to ask where the source of this info can be found

From you we discover "A small number were captured by Iraq" but not if they were used by the Iraqis so there's a 50/50 chance whatever decision is made about them will be wrong or that new info won't be found three years from now reversing that decision. For now I have renationalized them so they will not show up as a pick. When/if I get more info or find the time to comb through every scenario that might use them I will decide what further steps might be warranted

Re-Al-Majnoon arty


This complaint also ties in with the Al-Fao FG

( weapon 113---- Unit users of weapon ID 113 210mm Al-Fao FG:
098 - 210mm AF FG : 1 - Available 01/085 to 04/103
182 - 210mm A-F Pl : 1 - Available 01/095 to 04/103
182 - 210mm A-F Pl : 2 - Available 01/095 to 04/103
182 - 210mm A-F Pl : 3 - Available 01/095 to 04/103
360 - Al Faw-210 : 1 - Available 01/095 to 04/103

If looks like they were put in becasue the info at hand either suggested they were in service or were likely in service. Strangely enough hard info on what the Iraqis did or didn't actually have in service was difficult to pin down until the country was overrun. "Wikipedia" which I will not trust without back up sources is more than just a BIT vague.."it does not appear to have entered into Iraqi service and none were captured during the 1991 Gulf War; the programme was probably cancelled thereafter" ........... "does not APPEAR"....... " was PROBABLY" cancelled. Not exactly inspiring wording is it ? And none of that info was available when the OOB was written. However, there ARE problems with these weapons even if they DID make it to service. The "Al-Maj Minelets" were never set up properly as minelets but as cluster instead. Odd nobody noticed for 5 years. I can only guess at the reason for that.

However, sources like http://www.faoa.org/journal/iraq9910.html say.......

"In June 1988, the Iraqis signed an agreement with Dr. Gerald Bull's 'company Space Research Corporation to design and build two prototypes of the South African G-6 self-propelled howitzer. The result of this agreement is the Al-Majnoon a 155 mm howitzer and the Al-Faw, a 210-mm gun both with enhanced ammunition and a range of 40 kilometers. . "

Which seems to suggest this was developed.... Yes ? That was written in 1999 so there one source that suggests it did exist after all even though the wording does not give a lot of detail and that's the type of info we had to work with when the OOB was written. If you have something that catigorically states these things never got beyond the design stage please do share

I'll put this on the list and decide what to do when I have more information.

Don

[Marcello]

At http://armstrade.sipri.org/

In the registries it is written:
Al Fao 210mm Self-propelled gun.
Two units delivered via Spain in 1989.
Planned production in Iraq cancelled.

Some pictures (scroll down)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124145
Probably taken at the Baghdad Expo of 1989

From what I pieced together these guns were all self propelled (no mention of towed versions) and while they got to the state of prototype in the late 80's they progressed no further.
There are no mentions anywhere of their use or mass production especially in the late 90's.
Given how the indigenous arms production programs of Iraq were scrutinized before and after 2003 I find doubtful that the production of something so big and complex would have passed unnoticed, without mentioning that the delapidated industrial base of sanctions era Iraq would not have been up to it.
I bet that those two prototypes were parked somewhere and forgotten until they were bombed or scrapped. I don't know the game policy about these sort of units.

Should I try to find something more about the M-84?

[DRG]

No, I'm just going to pull them out. Let me know if I should remove the minelet arty ( Unit 206 and 566 )

Don

[Marcello]

Short answer: unit 206 and 566 should not be available.

Long answer
Currently the the iraqi army has no minelet arty. As a matter of fact they have not had any artillery at all beyond mortars since the surrender in 2003, the first artillery units are going to be raised in 2009 if they stick to schedule. At this point there is no way to know if and when they will get some scatterable mines in the next decade without using the proverbial crystal ball.
In the past they may have had some limited scatterable mines capacity in the late 80's. They had what is referred to as Ababel/KPTM mine in the american UXO reports, it was seemingly rocket delivered (probably via BM-21 or some other MRLS). As of now I have very little info about the extent it was really an operational weapon.
As I see it you could either delete them (I don't remember any scenario using them) or leave them without formation so that they could eventually be modified into actually used weapons later on.

[Marcello]

In addition to the BTR-80, BTR-94 and M113 I noted previously the iraqi army has used the MT-LB since the end of 2004.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a113004d.html

In addition also the Dzik-3 since the beginning of 2006

http://www.warwheels.net/DZIK3index.html

An additional source about the BTR-80 delivery
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw050729_1_n.shtml

[Marcello]

Units 219-262-396-603-605-607-912 should be deleted. There are absolutely no plans to aquire these V-150 vehicles (aside from the M1117 offshoot).

[Marcello]

In additio to the APCs listed previously Iraq uses also:

Panhard M3 since late 2004

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a113004c.html

Up armored HMMWVs

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=48700
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8816&Ite mid=21&lang=arabic
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Armor_Holdings_Receives_Award_For_Up_Armored_HMMWV s.html

[Marcello]

Some of the old iraqi army EE-9 Cascavel have been refurbished and put back in use. Availability starting from january 2008 (I guess it could replace unit 603, the V150 armored car variant).

http://www.blackanthem.com/News/scitechlead/Iraqi-Army-unit-receives-armored-vehicles13820.shtml

Some BMP-1s, since 2005

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/Iraq_Reports/docs/2006-02-Report.pdf

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-receives-t72s-bmps-with-another-armored-brigade-planned-01512/

http://www.armyrecognition.com/moyen_orient/Iraque/vehicules_legers/BMP-1/BMP-1_Iraq_news_06.jpg

[Marcello]

Now some units that should not be there, or at least be there with the availability dates they have.

Unit 46 Avenger
They have not it and certainly it hasn't been in the iraqi inventory since 2005. However given the nature of the system (american made, currently in service etc.) I cannot rule out that they may aquire it at some point in the future. I suggest a date change to 2010

Unit 215 M728 CEV
Same as above. They don't currently have it but I cannot rule out they might aquire it. I suggest the date being pushed forward to late 2008 or later.

Unit 301 BRDM-2b with TI sights
No such thing existed or was planned, although I understand it might have been a reasonable speculation back then.

Unit 333 Impr F/T APC
Flame tanks are so non PC these days it isn't even funny.
No such thing has ever been just only mentioned. I suggest it to be deleted.

Unit 381 M48A1 Chaparral
Never been supplied and unlikely to be. Unlike the Avenger it is also pretty much a dead system, especially by when the iraqi army will have started to worry about AD.

Unit 831 Vulcan AA Gun
Not there for now.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage15-Equipment.pdf
And various others sources.

EDIT
All the previous vehicles have 2005 as starting date.

[Marcello]

Continuing

Unit 361 M109A3 availability date 2005.
They might get them in the future, once they will have raised artillery units in 2009 but for the moment they aren't available to them.I suggest a date change to 2010.

Unit 371 HAWK III SAM availability date 2005.
Again they might get them in the future, once they will have raised AD units but for the moment they aren't available to them.I suggest a date change to 2010.

Unit 525 M113A3-106mm availability date 2005.
No such thing was ever done. For "Gun APCs" they have some
ZU-23s mounted on MT-LB. And some BMP-1 IFVs of course.

Unit 750 TOW Team availability date 2005
Unit 387 Stinger Team availability date 2005

These were never issued and chanches are that they might buy something else if my source is to be trusted.
I suppose that maybe in an emergency (say an iranian attack or something) they could have got some, after all it does not take as much time to learn to operate them as an heavy SAM or a tank.

[Marcello]

Units 950-951-952-953 F-16C available since 1 of 2005
Units 963 AH-1 Cobra/TOW available since 1 of 2005

This is what indeed they are likely going to get, especially the F-16s.
However timeframe is going to be 3/4 years from now at least, while in the game these units are available since
2005. For the present time they have been operating MI-17 with rocket pods for few months and some armed turboprops
are supposed to be delivered later in this year. Until then no fixed wing attack aircrafts will have been in service since the fall of Saddam

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-issues-rfp-for-coin-aircraft-03281/
http://www.special-operations-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=2137
http://www.stratfor.com/memberships/109032
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php

Unit 13 Type 69-QM (125mm) end date 4/2003
Unit 22 T-55QM (105mm) end date 12/2005
Unit 23 T-55QM2 (125mm) end date 4/2003
Unit 657 T-55QM (105mm) end date 12/2005

I recommend the final availability date of unit 22 to be restricted to 4 of 103, unit 657 to be deleted, and
units 13-22-23 to be given the X3 radio code.

These upgrades programs were one of the various military projects the iraqis had going back in the 80's.
As usual hard info is limited.
The only source for the 105mm upgrade is the
"T-55QM Iraq (had NATO-standard 105mm/L68 gun installed replacing the old 100mm gun,along with a French laser rangefinder)" tidbit which repeated by various sources on the web.
Of the 125mm upgrade I have a picture of what appears to be a Type 69 fitted with a 125mm gun taken at the Baghdad expo of 1989.
According to what I have been told the 125mm upgrade was problematic as supposedly it required a
purpose built autoloader, it retained the 100mm recoil brakes and various others issues.
It is very unlikely that it was put in production and it was never spotted afterwards.
The 105mm on the other hand posed no particular technical challenges. However logistically it was incompatible with the other army tanks.
I cannot rule out that a small series was made but again it was never spotted or referenced to as being produced or fielded.

[Marcello]

ZU-23 fitted MT-LB in iraqi army service, since 2005.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/News/2005/January/pictures/iraq/MTLB_ZU-23-2_Iraq_04.jpg

In addition the iraqis have been equipped with M1117/ASV (it could replace unit 912, V150 Commando)

http://www.armyrecognition.com/moyen_orient/Iraque/vehicules_a_roues/ASV_Textron/Armoured_ASV_Iraq_news_02.jpg
http://www.iraqdevelopmentprogram.org/idp/news/new356.htm
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=110047&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=598576&highlight=

Unit 360 Al Faw-210.
As I noted previously a prototype of the Al Faw was made but it was a wheeled G6 lookalike. I suggest it to be deleted (no game scenario uses it AFAIK) or replaced with a more accurate version.

[Marcello]

Unit 355, M109, availability date 1975-1995

The iraqis did not aquire M109 in 1975.No such delivery is listed anywhere that I could find. They did however capture some M109A1 during the iran iraq war.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/al_jaber_ii/al_jaber_ii_refs/n61en103/971030_061997QA_001.html
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/nla/fortystars0.html

While, as I noted previously, the iraqis had little use for iranian tanks the captured APCs and SPAs were quickly put in service.

Here is an unfortunate iraqi M109A1.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12bravo/113994900/in/set-72057594073501593/

[Marcello]

Some random pictures of Type 69-II tanks in iraqi service.
As I noted in a previous post this tank was a workorse of the iraqi army. They were armed with D-10T rifled guns (or its chinese clone at any rate). No 100mm smoothbores or 105mm rifled guns.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12bravo/113993996/in/set-72057594073501593/

http://www.armyrecognition.com/moyen_orient/Iraque/vehicules_lourds/Type_69/Type_69_Iraqi_Main_Battle_Tank_31.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/type-69_DMST9111661.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/type-69_DMST9111674.jpg

[DRG]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76897

specifically

http://64.40.99.49/Multimedia/pics/1384/11/photo/1190.jpg

the photo under the caption............"captured Iraqi Army French built Crotale SAM and T-55 MBT "


any ides what that 8 wheeled vehicle on it's side is ?

Don

[thatguy96]

Honestly looks more like a Roland SAM carrier of some sort. There were a number of truck mountings, but this one doesn't look familiar.

Something similar to the German FlaRakRad (http://www.bundeswehr-modellbau.info/images/roland1.jpg), just on a different chassis.

My copy of Jane's Weapon Systems 1986-87 lists Roland in Iraqi inventory, which I also realize is in the default OOB. Roland being French/German could easily have led to the confusion with Crotale.

[Marcello]

Probably this.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/roland/roland1.html

There are some reports that the iraqis did ask for some crotale systems but the jury is still out whether they did get them or not.

[Marek_Tucan]

My vote on that pic also goes to the Roland.

[Marcello]

Unit 546 ASTROS, availability date 2005-2020.

No such thing currently in service. To be honest it is unclear what this unit is supposed to represent. ASTROS rockets were used by truck mounted MRLS like unit 554, no fixed or towed launcher were considered. It should be deleted.

Unit 554 ASTROS-30, availability date 2005-2020.

Wrong availability date. According to SIPRI trade registers the first units were delivered in 1984. Regardless of the exact year it was definitively an 80's affair, not a post 2003 development. Its availability date should be changed to something like 1/84-4/103.

Unit 563 ASTROS 30 Bty, availability date 2005-2020.

For the same reasons stated above this unit should be deleted. Unit 560 Sajil-30 is already available in the 80's and Sajil-30 was the iraqi designation for the 127mm ASTROS rockets.

Unit 560 Sajil-30, availability date 1975-2020.

Start date should be changed to 1/84, like it is already for Sajil-40 and Sajil-60 anyway.


EDIT
Some additional sources
http://www.uga.edu/cits/documents/pdf/BrazilXC.pdf
https://naveodtechdiv.jeodnet.mil/IraqOIG/iraqoig.asp

[Marcello]

Unit 55 M40 PH Team, availability date 2005-2020.
Unit 810 M40 Recoilless, availability date 2005-2020.

Incorrect availability dates. As far it is known there are no plans to issue the new iraqi army with these weapons. The old iraqi army did however use them, starting from the 50's. I suggest a date change to, let's say, 1/57-4/103

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,821169,00.html

Iraq Country Handbook

https://naveodtechdiv.jeodnet.mil/IraqOIG/iraqoig.asp

[Marcello]

Unit 351 Jeep/106 RCL, availability date 2005-2020.

Incorrect availability date. As described in the previous post it should be changed to something like 1/57-4/103.

[DRG]

You do realize how all this totally buggers up the picklists don't you ?

Did you overlook or ignore units 53 and 54 yesterday?


Don

[Marcello]

DRG said:
You do realize how all this totally buggers up the picklists don't you ?



Unfortunately yes, as I have had to deal with that issue myself.
What I am doing is compiling a list of issues with the iraqi OOB, with their possible solutions and the relative sources all in a single thread to be used for reference purposes. For the present time I am concentrating mostly on the units themselves.
I do understand they cannot be all implemented in the short term because a lot of work would be necessary to modify the formations and the picklists to accomodate the units changes.
The problem of course is that the iraqi army ceased to exist in 2003 and did so in a pretty throughout manner.
The personnel dispersed and the infrastructure and equipment were aggressively looted (tank engines ripped out to make village generators, artillery scrapped etc.).
The new armed forces have been rebuilt little by little and many capabilities have not been implemented yet.
In game terms this would mean that for example that the old iraqi army artillery formations would stop at 4/103 with new ones startng at 1/109 (or whatever) and the picklists would have to accomodate that. As I said I understand it is a lot of work and this thread is meant to be mainly as a reference for eventual future patches.



DRG said:
Did you overlook or ignore units 53 and 54 yesterday?
Don



Unit 53 was one of those listed in the first page to have a start date which was a bit off, other than that is OK. As for unit 54 I am not sure as of yet. I have seen photos of insurgents using 82mm RR but I don't know about the 107mm ones.

[Marcello]

Some chinese weapons that should be added to the game as Iraq purchased and used them in some numbers during the Iran Iraq war. I suggest availability dates in the 1/84-4/103 range for the AA guns and 1/84-12/120 for the 107mm rockets, as they are still in use by the insurgents.

Type 65 AA gun
http://news.webshots.com/photo/1309427587067710444IPjOZq
http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi53.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2 Fg80%2Fwaldropt%2FTom%2FIraq%2FTom3.jpg&searchTerm =iraq%20and%20gun&pageOffset=11
http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi258.photobucket.com%2Falbums% 2Fhh242%2Fkbloomer27%2FMY%2520IRAQ%2520photos%2Fa2 2e.jpg&searchTerm=iraq%20and%20gun&pageOffset=14

Type 55 AA gun
http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi168.photobucket.com%2Falbums% 2Fu176%2Fjodydronen%2Firaq%2FHabbaniyah027.jpg&sea rchTerm=iraq%20and%20gun&pageOffset=1
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/m1939_DNST9208063.jpg

Type-63 107mm MRL
https://naveodtechdiv.jeodnet.mil/IraqOIG/iraqoig.asp
SIPRI registers

[Marcello]

The new iraqi army has been using T-72 since the end of 2005. Judging from the pictures they appear to be T-72M/M1 variants (mostly T-72M).Hungary was the supplier.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2005/a111405tj1.html

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-receives-t72s-bmps-with-another-armored-brigade-planned-01512/

[DRG]

Could we assume they are both using the same "gun" then ?

Don

[Marcello]

Game wise I think that weapon n.158 in the iraqi OOB would be a good fit. That would also avoid using up another weapon slot.


EDIT
In reality what type of ammunition has been purchased so far was not specified. For all that it is known they might have got BM-15 past their expiration date.
However they are purchasing additional T-72M/M1 from eastern countries with the goal of fully equipping a tank division (the others divisions would eventually get western tanks) and I would guess that the above gun would be the best candidate for the sort of ammo that would realistically be aquired.

[Marcello]

Some additional stuff, for eventual future patches.

Formation 205, Inf-AT Section and 206, Mot Inf-AT Sec.
Incorrect availability date: they begin at 1/55 but the template unit is available since 1/46.
The formations should begin at 1/46 too.

These two formations have availability dates 1/70-12/120
Formation 36, Motorised Co
Formation 51, Motorised Pl.
The only difference from formations 35 (Motorised Co) and 50 (Motorised Pl) is the presence of an organic SAM.
To the best of my knowledge there is no reason why such unit should have an organic SAM in the 70's while republican
guard mechanized units should be without in the 80's.
I suggest the following change
1) Formations 35 and 50 have their final date extended from 12/74 to 4/103
2) Formations 36 and 51 have their availability dates changed to 1/105-12/120
3) Their structure could be changed to reflect the
new iraqi army organization: a command section (one squad and two HMMWV) and four platoons with three squads
and three APCs each.The organic SAM should be deleted of course.(although new iraqi army organization is still somewhat fluid)

Formation 6 Tank Co (SPG)
Formation 7 Tank Co (FT)
Formation 9 Tank Co (Amph)

I suggesto these formations to be deleted.
The standard iraqi tank company pre OIF was composed by a
two tanks command section and three tank platoons with three tanks each as correctly portrayed in the game now.
There is no indications that formations like the above were employed as standard and in any case
cross attachments can deal with the any specific needs.

Formation 15 Amphib Tank Pl

End date should be restricted to 4 of 103.
There is no sense in it going on after the PT-76 are phased out.

Formation 18 SP-Gun Pl

It might be asppropriate to restrict the final availability date to 12 of 1988 instead of 1991.
As far as I know the vehicles in this formation were gone before 1991.T-55/54/59/Type 69 were in
plentiful supply by then, making those vehicles redundant after the end of the war with Iran.
According to "T-34-85 Medium Tank 1944-94" by Steven J. Zaloga some T-34s were dragged
out from storage to replace wartime losses during the war with Iran (exact timeframe is not specified but
from some pictures found www.militaryphotos.net (http://www.militaryphotos.net) it would seem in the first years of the war).

Also a close support T-34 should be made available, with 2/59-12/88 as availability dates.

Unit 8 M47

The iraqis did not make substantial use of captured tanks (unlike APCs and SPAs).
Some Chieftains were handed to the Mojahedin-e Khalq who may have driven them out of their storage sheds
once in a blue moon or so until OIF. But that's it. If any M47s were captured they were parked somewhere.

Unit 36 Assad Babyl

I suggest icon to be changed to that of a regular T-72 and final date to be extended to 4/103.
While the tank looks a bit different from a regular T-72M1 if seen from certain point of view
it is not enough to warrant a different icon.
http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/tango-numbers-su/t-72_series/asad-babyl/asadbabyl-intro.html

Unit 25 T-62A

Availability dates should be extended to 4/103. Otherwise the only T-62 left after 1981
is unit 26 T-62M. This in the game sports a laser rangefinder, which iraqi T-62s typically did not have.

Unit 45 ZSU-23-4M
Availability date should be anticipated to before Kuwait invasion.
1993 is puzzling as a starting as date effective sanctions were already in place.


Unit 67 BMP-1a

Up armored BMP.There were two up BMP armoring projects.

http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack-bravo/bravo/bmp1_series/saddam/saddam-intro.html
An 80's up armoring program prototype, which was probably not put in production.

And a less extensive one, which may have seen limited production.
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack-bravo/bravo/bmp1_series/saddam2/saddam2-intro.html

It should be decided which one this unit should represent.

Unit 332 TO-62
It should be deleted.
I have asked around and it seems that either it never existed or if it did it was a prototype/limited production item not exported.

[Marcello]

Iraqi T-62 tanks. Two main versions were used in the Iran-Iraq/Gulf war period

The "vanilla" type

http://64.40.99.49/Multimedia/pics/1384/11/photo/1217.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesdale10/2267829065/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snakeblocker/48227102/

The "improved" type

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-62-11_iraq.jpg
http://www.silentlywedefend.com/T62.JPG
http://news.webshots.com/photo/1032760224034874941aEiYcL

About the only difference I can spot is armored protection for the IR projectors, (although there may be further differences in things like sand filters and what not).
In any case nothing that would show up in the game stats. A small number was fitted with
Type 69 style side skirts but that's it.
If any were fitted with laser rangefinders I have never seen them (an addon LRF would have been external
in that timeframe), although I have heard (but not seen) that at least one prototype was made fitted with it and
I cannot rule out a limited batch production. So, as I noted in the previous post there should be
T-62s without LRF available in the 1980-2003 timeframe and they should be prevalent.


Units 28,586 and 617: TR-77 tanks.
I suggest their availability starting date to be anticipated to 1982
(currently they are available since 1987).

Unit 617 is available until 2020 but all the T-55 type tanks in the new iraqi army service are T-55/type 69.
Final date should be 4/103 at the latest.

According to the SIPRI registers about 150 of these tanks were delivered between 1982 and 1984. Realistically I doubt those few tanks may have survived past the Gulf War, maybe not even the Iran-Iraq war. They certainly should not be available past OIF.

Unit 523 BMP-1a
Same issues as unit 67.

[Marcello]

Some further food for any future updates.

Infantry weapons of the new iraqi army

Assault Rifles
The AK has been the standard rifle of the new iraqi security forces after 2003.
It has been in the process of being phased out since 2007, with the first M16s being issued
in May of that year. The goal is to replace all AKs with the M16/M4 as quickly as possible.
Going by the numbers it would seem that by the end of 2008 most or all of the regular troops will be armed with M16/M4.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=53489&archive=true
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,162878,00.html
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fir5aC3FNaT8/610x.jpg

Machine guns
The PK has been the standard machine gun in the iraqi army, being used both as LMG
and MMG, as well as on vehicles and such. Some RPKs may have been used as well but not as many as the PKMs.
In addition some quantities of M249 SAW and M240 MMG machine guns have been requested but the replacement of the PK is not regarded as urgent as the replacement of the AK-47.

http://flickr.com/photos/jimbirt/262223546/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:PKM_Machine_Gun_Iraq.jpg
http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Iraq-Requests-Helicopters-Vehicles-Weapons-and-Support_n000000978.aspx

In the HMG class cal 50 have been used.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/june2005/a061605wm3.html

AT weapons
The RPG-7 is the standard antitank weapon. A small quantity of american LAWs has been purchased for testing purposes.
Like for the machine guns there is no pressing need. What ATGM is going to be selected is unknown at the moment. According to the rumor mill the supplier may be european.

Mortars
American 60mm mortars were issued starting from 2005. 81mm M252 mortars were issued starting from june 2008
and 120mm M120 mortars have been ordered as well.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage14-notes.pdf (for the 81mm and 120mm ones)

[PlasmaKrab]

In the HMG class cal 50 have been used.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/june2005/a061605wm3.htmlJust for the sake of nitpicking, the .50 MG here looks pretty much like an NSV, save for the chaingun-like belt :confused: on left side. And no ammo feed on right side. Conversion with NATO-style feed?

Nevermind, thanks for the update!

[Marek_Tucan]

Have a candidate for the .50 - Polish WKM-B, which is basically NSV rechambered for 12.7x99.

[Marcello]

Just for the sake of nitpicking, the .50 MG here looks pretty much like an NSV, save for the chaingun-like belt on left side. And no ammo feed on right side. Conversion with NATO-style feed?

Honestly I just checked that it was not a Dshkm and trusted the caption for the rest.

Iraqi troops training on M240 machine gun alongside PKMs

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_M240_and_PKM_in_ING_Training_lg.jpg

This was a 2006 picture. It does not mean that they were actually issued but there was some interest in the weapon already back then.

New Iraqi security forces RPG-7 gunners

http://newsblaze.com/pix/2006/0511/pix/soldier-rpg.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08KA9aXfsF1Yi/610x.jpg
rpg.jpghttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ISF_member_armed_with_RPG-7.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bqM66X7tP53I/610x.jpg

[thatguy96]

Something else to add from today. link (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/IRAQ101408.xml&headline=New%20Iraqi%20Airborne%20Strike%20Capabil ity%20Spotted)

[PlasmaKrab]

Something else to add from today. link (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/IRAQ101408.xml&headline=New%20Iraqi%20Airborne%20Strike%20Capabil ity%20Spotted)Hmm, with TI and some decent EW (according to the article), this is going to be a nice addition to the post-OIF Iraqi OOB's air capability. Right now there is only F-16s starting 2011, this 'mock-Predator' should be interesting for the transition period.

[Marcello]

Something else to add from today. link (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/IRAQ101408.xml&headline=New%20Iraqi%20Airborne%20Strike%20Capabil ity%20Spotted)Hmm, with TI and some decent EW (according to the article), this is going to be a nice addition to the post-OIF Iraqi OOB's air capability. Right now there is only F-16s starting 2011, this 'mock-Predator' should be interesting for the transition period.

This is supposed to provide a limited interim strike capability until the acquisition of some dedicated coin turboprop, Super Tucano or similar, whose negotiations are should be underway as we speak (several procurement deals appear to have been delayed and this was one of them). Next step will be the acquisition of some F-16s, not before 2013-2014 though.

[Marcello]

Also the iraqis have requested various vehicles

Abrams tanks and various logistical vehicles
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-98.pdf

LAV-25s, LAV variants etc
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-35.pdf

Light attack helicopters (AH-6J or equivalent) and their weapons
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-95.pdf

Additional M1117s and MK19 40mm AGL
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-86.pdf

Night vision equipment and assorted stuff
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-44.pdf

[Marcello]

Some suggestions for the next update

Unit 25 T-62A
It should have its final availability date extended to 4/103.
I had already documented the absence of LRF fitted T-62s in iraqi service previously in this thread.

Unit 26 T-62M
As I noted it might have existed as a prototype or limited batch production only. I would suggest X3 radio code.

Unit 434 Republic Guards
The RPD in the second slot should be changed to a PKM and the RPG-16 should be replaced with an RPG-7.
The RPG-16D was a relatively rare weapon in iraqi service that should be available as separate AT team and in the special forces but not for general issue even to the guards units. And the RPD was obsolete by 2000 and there were more modern machine guns available, at least for the republican guard (PKM and RPK).

Units 432-433-434 should have the same start and end date, 1/87-4/103. It is not like the RG switched from RPG-7 to RPG-18
in 1991. Both weapons were used concurrently.

[Marcello]

Unit 400, 401, 402 and 403 Weapons Team
While the 1941 iraqi army may still have retained separate LMG teams in the rifle platoons
this typically 30's practice did not survive after WW2.
Neither the british advisors which oversaw the reconstruction of the iraqi army postwar
nor the soviet ones which took over after the 1958 coup had separate LMGs team as doctrine.
To the extent the iraqi platoons structure is mentioned in the available literature they are described as
having standard squads.

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/iraq/iraqarmy1941.html
http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/iraqi_organisations_1990.htm
US Army Iraq Country Handbook
In addition I have asked around in various forums including ones specialized in arab israeli wars.
The answer was always the same: the LMGs were kept in the squad after WW2.

The weapons teams should thus be deleted from formations 45-46-50-51 while the units thmeselves
might be kept around, as they are used in various scenarios. They could be renationalized to make them unavailable for purchase
or be made available for purchase in a specialized formation only.

This of course means that the rifle sections, units 410-411-412-413-414
and the Motor sections units 420-421-422-423-424 would have to be either modified
or renationalized and replaced with new units. More on this later.

[Marcello]

As noted previously the elimination of the weapons squad would make necessary some restructuring in the infantry and motorized infantry to incorporate the support weapons currently kept in the weapons teams.

Unit 420 Motor Section
I think that it is reasonable to assume that the few units which could be mechanized with the limited number of soviet supplied APCs in that timeframe (a few tens of BTR-152s and such)
would get the best infantry weapons made available by the soviet advisors.
In the late 50's that would be SKS carabines (which are still found in Iraq), probably RPD as LMG and RPG-2.
Therefore I suggest the followin change
1) start date 2/59 to go in with the BTR-152 start date and about mid 60's as end date.
2) Rearming with
-first slot weapon n.4 SKS
-second slot weapon n.11 RPD
-third slotweapon n.16 RPG-2
-fourth slot, grenades.

Unit 421 Motor Section
It should be used to represent the introduction in service of the AK-47 and RPG-7.
1) start date mid late 60's, final date 4/103.
2) Rearming with
-first slot AK-47
-second slot weapon n.12 RPK lmg
-third slot RPG-7
-fourth slot, grenades

Unit 422 Motor Section
A variation of the above
Start date around 1970, 4/103 as final date.
-second slot PKM instead of DPM as LMG (obsolete by then)
-third slot RPG-7
-fourth slot, grenades


Unit 423 Motor Section
It should be a clone of the above but with 1/2005 as start date to represent new iraqi army units and 12/2008 (or some month of 2009)
as end date to represent the final phasing out of the AK-47.

Unit 424 Motor Section
Like the above but with the M16 instead of the AK-47 in the first slot and 7/2007 as start date.

Alternatively some or all of these units could be simply renationalized and new ones created with the described
armament.

[Marcello]

Unit 424 Motor Section
Like the above but with the M16 instead of the AK-47 in the first slot and 7/2007 as start date.


End date would be 12/120 for this one.

[Marcello]

Unit 9: M60A1Rise
Unit 10: M60A3-TTS

I had requested, previously in this thread, an initial availability date set to end 2008. That was in light of a proposed deal for the purchase of a large number of M60 tanks.
So far however no such tanks have been delivered and no further talks have been reported about it. There have also more recently been rumors about a large order of upgraded T-72s but this has quickly turned out to be just a plant by a contractor.
So at this point there are no M60s in iraqi service and no public plans to aquire them. Yet it still cannot be ruled out that some will be aquired at some point.
I suggest the initial availability date to be moved from current 10/2008 to 1/2012 or such and wait and see what happens.

In the meantime Iraq is purchasing a few more vanilla T-72M/M1
and crew training for Abrams tanks has begun.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/

Some have noted that it is likely that in addition to the 140-280Abrams already ordered more will be loaned from the US Army as US forces in Iraq are reduced (that would also explain a reduced interest for gap filler vehicles like the M60).

Unit 608: M1A1 Abrams

In light of the above and following info I would suggest initial availability date to be anticipated to 1/2011 from current 1/2012.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage15-Equipment.pdf

According to this the newly built Abrams could be delivered as early as late 2010 and the loaned ones (if that goes on) would available soon too. So beginning of 2011 should be prudent for the moment.

[Marcello]

Unit 29: T-72A
Start date is currently 1/75. It should be postponed to 1/79 at the earliest. SIPRI lists 1979 and it is my understanding from tanknet that T-72s would not have been made available by the USSR to third world clients before that year.

Unit 43: ZSU-23-4
Unit 45: ZSU-23-4M

There are some issues with dates. Unit 43 ends at 12/100 and unit 45 begins at 1/93. In reality no ZSU-23 were delivered after the embargo and I am not aware of any upgrade progam carried out during the sanction era. I suggest 4/103 as final date for unit 43 and late 80's as start date for unit 45.

Unit 64: YW 531 APC
As with most of the chinese weapons, they were purchased in the 80's. SIPRI lists 1982 as delivery date.

[Marcello]

Unit 215 : M728 CEV
The iraqis have aquired T-72 based BREM engineering vehicles so far. M728 availability date should be pushed further forward as for the M60, or be renationalized and eliminated from purchase list. While some might have been included in a large purchase of surplus M60 that isn’t materializing and the purchase of such a niche vehicle was always a low probability.

Unit 314 and unit 316: OT-64 SKOT
Current initial availability dates are 1965 and 1974. According to SIPRI First units were delivered to Iraq in 1981. As it is now they are available before they are available in the czech OOB, which is rather unlikely.

Unit 348 and unit 573: JSU-122
Current final availability date date are 12/1990 and 12/1991. That is too late for such vehicles. I suggest 12/1984 as final date at the latest. Unit 352 Steyr SK-105 can fill the gap in the formations.

Unit 359: Palmaria
A total of two-three units were delivered (source Gulflink). This would indicate that they were meant for testing and evaluation rather than operational use. I would suggest X3 radio code.

Unit 571: SU-100M
Final availability date is 12/1991. That is too late. I suggest 12/1980 like most of the others SU vehicles or 12/1984.

[Marcello]

Unit 61 : BTR-50PK
Unit 62 : OT-62
Final availability date should be 4/103 instead of current 12/104. Unit 63 Mt-Lb can fill the gap in the formations being of the same class and available since 1/1975 to 12/2020

Unit 66: BMP-1
It is available since 1/1980 in the game. I suggest 1/1975 as initial availability date.
According to SIPRI first units were delivered in 1974-1975. Based on soviet export pattern of such vehicle, 1974-1975 would indeed seem right.

Also a new BMP-1 unit should be made available in the 2005-2020 timeframe, to represent the BMP-1s in service in the new iraqi army. Such BMP should not have the ATGM though.
Source : http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-receives-t72s-bmps-with-another-armored-brigade-planned-01512/
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2006/In-Brief--Greece-donates-BMP-1-vehicles-to-Iraq.html
and many others

Unit 231: 45mm AT-Gun
If any were supplied, unlikely but not impossible, they would be used as light infantry guns firing HE mostly, as it usually happened to small antitank guns once they outlived their usefulness in their primary role. I suggest an increase in HE rounds and a decrease in AP/APCR

[DRG]

Unit 215 : M728 CEV
The iraqis have aquired T-72 based BREM engineering vehicles so far. M728 availability date should be pushed further forward as for the M60, or be renationalized and eliminated from purchase list. While some might have been included in a large purchase of surplus M60 that isn’t materializing and the purchase of such a niche vehicle was always a low probability.



Help me out here please, I'm a bit swamped ATM

The Brem you are referring to would that be the "IMR-2MA" in the Ukranian OOB or the "IMR" in the Russian or both or neither and if it's one or the other or both what date was it put in service?

Don

[Marcello]

Just a quick reply.
It is a basic ARV. T-72 chassis, a simple straight dozer blade at the front and others tools to assist repairs and towing. Not a specialized vehicle like IMRs.
More later when I get access to my home computer.

[Marcello]

The vehicle supplied to Iraq is this:

http://www.armyrecognition.com/Russe/vehicules_lourds/BREM-1/BREM-1_Armored_Recovery_Vehicle_Russia_09.JPG

The source for its supply to Iraq is this (though they are mentioned elsewhere) at page four, with a picture included:

http://www.mnstci.iraq.centcom.mil/Press_Releases/2008/MAR%2008/080327-01%20-%20MNSTC-I%20-%20$14.7%20million%20of%20equipment%20is%20receive d%20by%20the%20Iraqi%20Ministry%20of%20Defence.pdf

Delivery date is listed as March 2008

These vehicles, as noted previously, are recovery/maintenance assets. They have a dozer blade which might be used for obstacle removal, light earth moving etc. but it is primarily meant to assist recovery operations if I understand correctly. They are not dedicated obstacle removal vehicles as the IMR are.

[DRG]

OK, Thanks

Don

[Marcello]

Unit 291: Al-Walid
Current initial availability date is 1/65. SIPRI lists 1980 as delivery date and given iraqi purchase patterns
I think 1980 is more likely.

Unit 294 and Unit 394: FUG-70
Current initial availability date is 1/72. SIPRI lists 1981 as delivery date and again given iraqi purchase patterns
I think 1981 is more likely.

Unit 393: OT-64 R-2u
Like for the others OT-64s discussed previously intial availability date should be changed to 1981.

Unit 602 and 282 : Panhard AML 60
Unit 285: AML-90
Current initial availability date is 1982 for unit 602 and 1990 for unit 282. According to SIPRI the first ones were delivered in
1967 together with the AML-90 (currently available since 1965). I suggest an intial availability date change for all three units, with all three starting in 1967.
The AML-60 are also issued with AP rounds for their guns. Given that it was a 60mm mortar I would doubt
but given how obscure such things are it will take some time to research. For the short term the date change can suffice.

[Marcello]

Units 304 and 326: medium truck.
I suggest an icon change, with current icons changed to 2982 (green) and 2983(desert). These two icons are more similar to the bulk of iraqi trucks (various models of Zil, Ural etc.)

Unit 355: M109A1
It has a couple of problems
1) It mounts a ZPU-2 as secondary weapon. This was almost certainly not the case and none were present in the pictures of
M109 in iraqi service. I suggest to change it with weapon 29
.50 cal M2 AAMG or similar.
2) It is available since 1975. In reality the first ones were captured from Iran in the 80's during the war. I suggest an initial availability date change to 1988 or such.

Unit 358: SO-152
Current initial availability date is 1975. According to SIPRI the first ones were delivered in 1980, like unit 356 SO-122.

In light of the above formation 160 SPA Battery and formation 161SPA Platoon should have their initial availability date changed from 1975 to 1980.

[Marcello]

Unit 643: Ain Jaria 1
I suggest an icon change. Currently it uses a Mastiff MRAP icon which rather different from.
However specific icons are available 4600 (green) and 4603 (desert). Ain Jaria is just the iraqi name for the Dzik APC.


Unit 313: BTR-60P
I suggest it being renationalized or otherwise deleted.
The first BTR-60s were delivered in 1971 according to SIPRI. Version is listed as BTR-60PB.
Asking and reading around it seems that as a policy the early open topped BTR-60 versions were generally retained by the USSR for various support tasks (carrying mortars etc) instead of being handed down to foreign satellite states as might have been expected. The first to be exported were the BTR-60PA/PB versions with armored roofs.
Current Unit 315 BTR-60PK can cover iraqi BTR-60s adequately.

Unit 536: AMX-10P
According to SIPRI the first ones were delivered in 1981-1982 while currently they are available since 1990.
Also at least one hundred were delivered, so it might be made available as general issue APC.
That would entail increasing carrying capacity to 9 and changing class to 25 APC (Track).
Unit 535 BMD-1 can remain as Light Support APC in the formation which uses this class.

Also an armored HMMWV with a MG should be added. Unit 910 lacks armor and unit 324 lacks a machine gun. They are both fine but a third one with both MG and armor should be included.

[Marcello]

Some notes about formations.
According to “The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" US Army National Training Centre and the US Army “Iraq Country Handbook”
The standard iraqi infantry company, at least from the Iran Iraq war to OIF, was composed by:
1) three rifle platoons with three infantry squads each
2) weapons platoon with three 60mm mortars and four MMG/HMG.

This basic structure applied to regular army non mechanized and mechanized infantry as well as to Republican Guard non mechanized infantry.

I suggest formation 24 Rifle Company to be modified along the following lines:
1) One rifle squad in the first slot
2) Three rifle platoons in slots 2-3-4, each with three squads (the weapons squad should be eliminated, as discussed previously).
3) One weapons platoon in slot 5. That could be made up by a couple of machine guns sections, picked from units 100-104 and
three 60mm mortars , picked from units 425-426.

[Marcello]

According to http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php the new iraqi army infantry company, available since the beginning of 2005 is composed by:
1) Command element
2) Mortar section with two 60mm mortars
3) Four rifle platoons with three squads each

I therefore suggest the introduction of a new infantry company composed by:
1) One rifle squad in slot 1
2) Unit 804 2x60mm Mortars in slot 2
3) Four rifle platoons (with three squads each) in the following slots

Such infantry company would be available in the 1/2005-12/2020 timeframe.


Formation 25 : Rifle Company +
Based on the information contained in the Iraq Country Handbook I suggest it to be modified along the following lines:

1) One rifle squad in the first slot
2) Three rifle platoons in slots 2-3-4, each with three squads.
3) One weapons platoon in slot 5, (four mmg/hmg and three 60mm mortars).
4) a mortar section picked from units 75-79 in slot 6
5) a couple of recoilless (unit 266 or similar) in the following slots.

Essentially it would be structured like formation 24 discussed previously and reinforced with some battalion weapons.
According to the handbook such a formation would be a typical setup for an infantry company deployed in static defense.
Final availability date would be 4/103.

[Marcello]

Unit 283: Jararaca EE-3
Wrong armament : it is currently armed with an autocannon in the first slot, weapon 247 20mm Rh 202 AC,
and weapon 248 12.7mm M2HB BMG. I suggest weapon 248 to be deleted.

Typically it is actually armed 12.7mm MG in an exposed mount or a protected 7,62mm MG or ATGMs
or combination of such weapons, as can be seen in all the pictures of it.

http://www.military-today.com/apc/ee_3_jararaca_l3.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Amerique_du_sud/Bresile/vehicules_a_roues/EE_3/ee3_01.jpg

Still at least one variant, at least on paper, was indeed armed with a 20mm gun in turret.
I doubt it was actually produced and delivered to Iraq but that is hard to verify, so for the moment the 20mm can be left.
Definitively no bow 12.7mm MG was present though. Weapon 248 could be changed in AAMG version of the PKM machine gun.
That would be eventually useful to arm several iraqi vehicles.


Unit 365: SA-2 Dvina
Suggested changes:
1)Initial availability date should be changed 1/1962 or 1/1963. SIPRI lists 1963 and indeed giving the timing of the coup which paved the way for soviet- iraqi military collaboration SIPRI chronology makes sense. Early 1960 would have been too soon for such a demanding weapon system to be put in iraqi hands.
2)The current icon should be changed to n. 4548.
3)The vision rating should be reduced to zero

In light of the above.
Formation 180: SAM Battery
Availability date should be changed from current 1/1960-6/2003 to 1/1963-4/2003

[Marcello]

Some notes about SAMs

Unit 374: SA-6 Kub
Wrong initial availability date: now it is 1/1970 but it should be 1/1978. The formations which use it are available from 1/1978
and the system was indeed delivered about that date. Final availability date could be restricted to 12/110
(unit 46 Avenger HMMWV is available from 1/2011)

Unit 376: SA-13 Strela-10
Wrong initial availability date: now it is 1/1991 but according to SIPRI the system was delivered in 1985. That seems about right.

Unit 380: SA-9 Strela-1
Wrong initial availability date: now it is 1/1978 but according to SIPRI the system was delivered in 1982.

Unit 379: AMX-30 Roland
Wrong availability dates: now it is 1/1970-12/2004. It should be something like 1/1985-12/1998
According to SIPRI they were delivered in 1985 and in 1970 Roland was still under development anyway
(IOC was 1977-1978 by most sources).
The number these of units delivered was apparently rather low and given the issues with spare parts (not a whole lot of AMX-30
to cannibalize in the iraqi Army) it was probably discarded at some point in the 90’s.
Truck mounted Roland (like unit 381) were much more numerous and sill in active service in 2003 of course.

[Marcello]

Unit 550: BM-13 Katyusha
Wrong initial availability date: currently it is 1/1950. It should be 2/1959, like the initial availability dates of the formations
which use it (formations 245-246-247) .

Unit 553: Impr SP RL
Some suggestions for change:
1) Final availability date be extended to 12/2010 or 12/2020
2) Rearm it with weapon n. 215, 107mm rockets (smaller, easier to conceal and more common in Iraq)

Here is a real world example for inspiration.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/eric1898/Iraq%202003%20and%20some%20other%20stuff/fbc2.jpg?o=0

Formation 245: SP Rocket Bn
Formation 246: SP Rocket Bty
Final availability date is currently 12/2004. It should be changed to 4/2003. Insurgents rocket launchers were used piecemeal.
Also formation 246 initial availability date should be extended back to 2/1959 from current 1/1960.

Formation 247: SP Rocket Pl
Final availability date is currently 12/2004. It should be changed to 12/2010 or 12/2020

[Marcello]

Some notes about SAMs
Unit 380: SA-9 Strela-1
Wrong initial availability date: now it is 1/1978 but according to SIPRI the system was delivered in 1982.


Sorry I just realized misread my notes on it.Leave it 1978.

[Marek_Tucan]

Some notes about SAMs

Unit 374: SA-6 Kub
Wrong initial availability date: now it is 1/1970 but it should be 1/1978. The formations which use it are available from 1/1978
and the system was indeed delivered about that date. Final availability date could be restricted to 12/110
(unit 46 Avenger HMMWV is available from 1/2011)

Are there plans to retire Kub (if it is still in IA service)? I would think it can be relatively cheaply upgraded same way as Czech or Polish Kubs, IE better ECM resistance, Western IFF etc...?

[Marcello]

Are there plans to retire Kub (if it is still in IA service)? I would think it can be relatively cheaply upgraded same way as Czech or Polish Kubs, IE better ECM resistance, Western IFF etc...?

It isn't in service. There are no SAMs in service in the current Iraqi Army, just like there are no artillery pieces beyond 120mm mortars, no ATGMs (and for certain periods in the past, no tanks, no APCs, no armored cars etc.). Something will be fielded at some point but what and when is unknonw.
In game terms that means that would mean new sets of formations for almost everything, often set at speculative dates subject to constant modifications, and revised picklists.
That is a lot of work for the guys in charge, so some units are left as gap fillers in some formations.
In real life at least some seemingly intact SA-6 systems and missiles were captured in 2003, but they were destroyed by the EOD guys. See link:

http://www.defenseimagery.mil/assetDetails.action?guid=1ce177a3f8d19d504636e371b 4afa5ed8812cd41

[DRG]

Unit 550: BM-13 Katyusha
Wrong initial availability date: currently it is 1/1950. It should be 2/1959, like the initial availability dates of the formations
which use it (formations 245-246-247) .

Unit 553: Impr SP RL
Some suggestions for change:
1) Final availability date be extended to 12/2010 or 12/2020
2) Rearm it with weapon n. 215, 107mm rockets (smaller, easier to conceal and more common in Iraq)

Here is a real world example for inspiration.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/eric1898/Iraq%202003%20and%20some%20other%20stuff/fbc2.jpg?o=0

Formation 245: SP Rocket Bn
Formation 246: SP Rocket Bty
Final availability date is currently 12/2004. It should be changed to 4/2003. Insurgents rocket launchers were used piecemeal.
Also formation 246 initial availability date should be extended back to 2/1959 from current 1/1960.

Formation 247: SP Rocket Pl
Final availability date is currently 12/2004. It should be changed to 12/2010 or 12/2020



Marcello

Just one comment here. If the formation start date or end date is correct and the unit start or end dates spill over those limits it's not an issue from a game POV but I can understand it from a "keep it tidy" POV

Also, the Rocket Bty ( formation 246) in this case has a start date 10 months later than the Rocket Pl for the same reason the Bn is later than the Bty becasue it's assumed the larger formations didn't develop the moment the rocket launchers were unloaded.

Don

[Marcello]

Marcello

Just one comment here. If the formation start date or end date is correct and the unit start or end dates spill over those limits it's not an issue from a game POV but I can understand it from a "keep it tidy" POV

Largely true, but they still do show up as upgrade options in campaigns. OK maybe no big deal, but it also helps while going throught the OOB checking what is right and what isn't.
However if you are hard pressed for time leave them alone, they are not a big deal.


Also, the Rocket Bty ( formation 246) in this case has a start date 10 months later than the Rocket Pl for the same reason the Bn is later than the Bty becasue it's assumed the larger formations didn't develop the moment the rocket launchers were unloaded.
Don

Agree about the battalion but in regards to the battery, which was the one I suggested to be modified, I would doubt. Batteries are the basic unit for artillery organizations in general (even if split in platoons in some TOEs) and MRLS are typically used in in numbers anyway. Still no big deal, given it's just a few months.

[DRG]

OK maybe no big deal, but it also helps while going throught the OOB checking what is right and what isn't.



Let me know if there was actually anything at all "right" about this OOB when we're done :rolleyes:



However if you are hard pressed for time leave them alone, they are not a big deal.


Already fixed

Don

[Marcello]

Let me know if there was actually anything at all "right" about this OOB when we're done :rolleyes:
Don

It looks OK for a 1995-1996 research job on a shoestring budget.
Even now decent data on the iraqi army is very hard to come by. I have been collecting the available pieces of info since 2002, my pet project basically.

[Marcello]

Some notes on SP ATGMs

Formation 297: 3 SP ATGM

Suggested changes:
1)Final date should be restricted to 4/2003 (there are others SP ATGM formations available after that anyway, such as n. 185 and n. 186)
2)Initial availability date to be set to 1/1973, which SIPRI lists as the year of delivery for the first ATGM BRDM variant
Based upon what I read about Sagger proliferation 1/1973 seems about right.
3)Another unit to be added, so that this formation has four ATGM BRDMs. According to the "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" several formations employed antitank variants of BRDMs in groups of four.

Unit 260 and 226: BRDM-2 Malutka
Availability dates should be changed to 1/1973-4/2003 from current 1/1970-12/2004

Unit 261: BRDM-2 Konkurs
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

Unit 228: VCR/TT HOT
According to SIPRI and others sources it was delivered starting around 1979-1981 while currently it is only available since 1985.
Also current final date is 1989, which is somewhat early. It could be extended to 4/2003 or maybe even 12/2010 by using it
as a gap filler in the formations.

Unit 604: M901 ITV
In light of the above its initial availability date could be pushed forward to 1/2011. As noted no such units are currently in service

Unit 288 and 293: BRDM-2
Current inital availability date is 1/1975
Based on several sources its initial availability date should be pushed back somewhat, I suggest 1/1970.

[Marcello]

Some notes on SP mortars

According to SIPRI the first self propelled mortars were delivered in 1983, these were 240mm 2S4 and modified MT-LB.

Formation 170: SP Mortar Bty
Formation 171: SP Mortar Pl
Initial availability date to be changed to 1/1983 from current 1/1975

Unit 220: MT-LB/82
Availability dates should be changed to 1/1983-4/2003 from current 1/1975-4/2020

Unit 221: MT-LB/120
Availability dates should be changed to 1/1983-4/2003 from current 1/1975-12/2020

Unit 223: 2S1-240
Initial availability date should be changed to 1/1983

Unit 222: T-54/160
Initial availability date should be changed to 1/1983 or later

Unit 218: Mortar Truck
Final availability date should be pushed forward to 12/2020, so that it can be used as gap filler in the formations.
I also suggest an icon change to icon n. 2962

Eventually, if you have the time to spare, some M113 based mortar carrier could be added with an availability date of 1/2011or similar. Unit 33 of obat 12 USA could be a good candidate.

[Marcello]

In regards to artillery.
As remarked several times in this thread there has been no artillery in service in the iraqi army since the fall of Saddam in 2003 and probably there won’t be any till some point in 2011. An handful of still usable guns were captured and stored in 2003
but that’s it.
I I believe that the most elegant solution and the one requiring the least work is to make some US artillery organic to the iraqi OOB.
US artillery would and has been used to support iraqi army anyway.

1) Importing from the US OOB unit 90: 155mm Howitzer
Its weapon is already available in the iraqi OOB: weapon 168 155mm M198 FH.
Availability dates would be 5/2003-12/2020.
Chances are some will be left to the iraqi army anyway.

2)Unit 87: 105mm M102 FG
Final availability date to be restricted to 4/2003.

3)Unit 843: 155mm M198 Pl
Initial availability date to be changed to 5/2003 from current 1/2005.

4) Units 840-841-842 to be deleted/renationalized

5) Formation 251: Med Howitzer Bn
Formation 256: Medium Battery
Final availability date to be restricted to 4/2003

[Marcello]

Formation 292 : Inf Bn Sup't Co
I suggest it to be modified by replacing the existing components with the following ones, to represent the nominal allotment of support weapons for an infantry battalion.

1) a rifle section or an AT team
2) formation 225 Mortar Battery
3) formation 156 AA-Gun Platoon
4) formation 205 Inf-AT Section (x 2)
5) formation 320 AGL Platoon

Sources
Iraq Country Handbook
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Iraq/Mountain.htm

[Marcello]

Formation 33: D/M RGuards Co
According to the "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" it had a support weapons platoon composed by four MGs and three 60mm mortars, like the regular infantry company.
I suggest deleting the support formations in slots 5 thought 8 and replacing them with one weapons platoon in slot 5. That could be made up by a couple of machine guns sections, picked from units 100-104 and three 60mm mortars , picked from units 425-426.


Formation 42 : Mech Sapper Co
Should be replaced by a mechanized platoon along the lines of formation 118 RG Sapper Pl/M. As it is there is a (poorly organized) mechanized sapper company but not a mechanized sapper platoon for the regular army forces.

Unit 426: 60mm Mortar
It should have its weapon n.2 SKS replaced with weapon n.8 AK47 Rifle
Its final availability date should be extended to 12/2020.

Some notes on the mountain units

Formation 100: Mountain Co
Should have formations in slots 7 (mortar squad) and 8 (Inf-SAM Platoon) deleted

Formation 105: Mountain Pl
Should have one of its two scout sections replaced by a 60mm mortar picked from units 425-426
Source: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Iraq/Mountain.htm

Some notes on the reserve units

Formation 26: Reserve Company
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003
There are no reserve formations in the new iraqi army. All units are active for the time being. Something along the lines of reserves might be organized later on but there is nothing for the moment.

Unit 502 : Reserve Section
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

Formation 46: Reserve Platoon
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003
Source: www.longwarjournal.org

[Marcello]

A reconnaissance platoon with six scout vehicles (class 32 ones, like unit 290) should be added
Availability date 1/1960-4/2003

A mechanized versions of the support weapons platoon should be added, composed by:
1) Two APCs
2) 2 MGs sections
3) 3 60mm mortars
Availability date 1/1975-4/2003

Formation 166: SPAA Batallion
Should have its number of units cut back to nine from the current twelve.
Also final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003


Formation 305: Combat Sup't Co
It looks like could be reorganized in a more rational manner
1)Unit 350 in slot 1
2)Formation 1286 in slot 2
3)Formation 1186 in slot 3
4)Formation 1186 in slot 4
Also final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

Two formations that should be deleted
Formation 310: Bn Weapons Co
Formation 311: Bn Weapons Co
Properly configured formations 290-291-292 make them redundant

Source: "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics"

[Marcello]

Formation 345: ILAV Platoon
I suggest the current units to be deleted and replaced by:
1) Three sapper sections (template unit 440)
2) Three ILAVs

Formation 344: ILAV Company
Unit 1 Motor secction should be replaced by a sapper section(template unit 440).

In the iraqi army ILAVs are issued primarily to the engineer units.

Sources: http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage13-TOE.pdf

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/01/iraqi_engineering_fo.php

[Marcello]

Unit 410-411-412-413-414: Rifle Section.
I had, previously in this thread explained how the current arrangement in the infantry organization is not correct, with the infantry platoon split between rifle sections and weapons teams (units 400-401-402-403). In reality this was not the case and conventional squads arrangements were used. Thus the Rifle sections should be treated in the same way I suggested earlier for the Motor Sections: renationalized (they are used in too many scenarios to modify them) and new squads created incorporating the LMGs and the AT weapons.

Formation 731: Mercenary Co
Formation 730: Mercenary Plt
What are they and their associated units (units 785-786-787-788-789) supposed to represent?
If they are security contractors their armament should be changed. If they are experienced foreign jihadists then they are OK but formation names are misleading.
I suggest renaming them “jihadist band” and “jihadist group” or something similar would be the quickest fix.

Unit 82: 160mm Mortar
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

[Marcello]

Unit 12: Type 69-II
I suggest an icon change to its proper icon n. 1606, like already is for unit 618

Unit 392: MT-Lbu
I suggest icon change to its proper icon n. 3219

[DRG]

Icon 3219 is an ACRV and a MT-Lbu is not an ACRV.

Don

[Marcello]

Icon 3219 is an ACRV and a MT-Lbu is not an ACRV.
Don

Yes and no. From what I have read MT-Lbu is the name of the basic chassis upon which several artillery command & control vehicles (and other variants) are based, ACRVs among them.

See this for example:

"MT-LBu (IV12 series) ACRV M1974"
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/mt-lbu.htm

So indeed not all MT-LBu are ACRVs.
However this unit is a FO and is called MT-LBu, so it is most likely meant to be a MT-LBu based ACRV or similar.
In any event even if it was not an actual ACRV its icon, being that vehicle built on the MT-LBu, is more appropriate than the standard MT-LB.
The iraqis certainly had them:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24449660@N04/2703322125/

[DRG]

EDIT:

Good catch on that. I should have dug deeper but I've been busy.

Those vehicles are split about 50/50 in various OOB's as either MT-LBu or ACRV and they are now all MT-LBu and the photos have been corrected to show the correct vehicle

Don

[DRG]

Unit 87: 105mm M102 FG
Final availability date to be restricted to 4/2003.



Marcello

Should I assume then that unit 172 gets the same restrictions which would mean Formation 255 needs to end 4/2003 which would also mean formation 250 has the wrong end date for the opposite reason ?


Don

[Marcello]

Marcello

Should I assume then that unit 172 gets the same restrictions which would mean Formation 255 needs to end 4/2003 which would also mean formation 250 has the wrong end date for the opposite reason ?

Don


I was actually about to write about them.
Formations 250 and 255 can be respectively increased and cut at 4/2003 too. 4/2003 cutoff for unit 172 too.

[Marcello]

Unit 369: Roland
Initial availability date should be moved back to 1/1981 at least

SIPRI lists 1981 and it was officially confirmed by the french government in 2003
“A French Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said Friday that Roland 1 missile systems were sent to Iraq from 1980 to 1981 and Roland 2 systems from 1983 to 1986.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/oct/05/world/fg-missiles5


Unit 525: MT-LB w/ZU-23
A clone of it but with class 22 SP Flak should be made available with 1/1983-4/2003 as availability dates.
Source :http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=128154 (scroll down to the third post for an example)
In any case I have plenty of pictures of them on my hard disk and I can post more if necessary. Apparently they were a rather common sight in the old iraqi army.

EDIT
I almost forgot: unit 392 should have a 4/2003 cutoff too.

[Marcello]

Unit 496: SB7L-360 Seeker
Icon should be changed to its proper n. 51

Unit 123: SA-342K
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

Unit 126: BO-105 PAH 1
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003

Unit 926 Mi-17C
It should get some rocket pods, weapons 186 or 205.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:081220-F-0620E-771.jpg

[Marcello]

Units 93 and 177: 152mm D1
Wrong picture, current one is that of a ML-20, it should be changed to n. 11566.Final availability date should also be restricted to 12/1991.

A lot of infantry divisions were disbanded after the Gulf War
“The number of regular army divisions was cut from seven armored/mechanised and 20 infantry divisions to two or three armor divisions, three mechanised divisions and 11 infantry divisions.” http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/army.htm
The WW2 soviet vintage artillery pieces were likely flushed out of the system at that point. I haven’t found pictures of them in serviceable state in 2003.

Unit 608: M1A1 Abrams
It looks like the initial availability date should be anticipated further:

“Currently, the first four American tanks are at Besmaya Range Complex, with another 18 to be delivered within the next month. The 22 tanks will be used to train 11 Iraqi tank crews in each of thirteen future 45-day rotations. Iraq has purchased 140 M1A1Abrams tanks, scheduled for delivery in August 2010.”
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25548&Itemid=128

[Marcello]

Wrong picture, current one is that of a ML-20, it should be changed to n. 11566

Sorry, I got it mixed: n.11566 is a D-20, n.36139 should be a D-1

Unit 534 M-60P APC from OOB 41 (Yugoslavia) t should be added as class 32 scout vehicle. Availability dates 1/1985-4/2003.
It could be armed with weapons 52 and 61 (better not to waste increasingly scarce weapons slots on BMGs).

According to “The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics” They were used as scouts vehicles. There are also pictures of them in Iraq. Here is one I found on the web some time ago.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1726/bmpm60m113.jpg



Also a couple of notes about national ratings
Base experience drops from 60 to 55 at the beginning of 1990. IMHO that should happen after Desert Storm, as the sanctions took their toll restricting the availability of spare parts and others resources necessary for training. Also many experienced leaders left the army in the early 90’s.
I think that the experience drop should take place in 1992 or 1993 and be reversed back to 60 in 2009 or so, as the new iraqi army stabilizes and continues training along western methods.

[Marcello]

With unit 82 160mm Mortar getting a 4/2003 cutoff, as suggested previously, the related units and formations should stop at that date too.
Formations 230-231-232-233 should get a 4/2003 cutoff.

Unit 805 2x120mm Mortars could be deleted/renationalized/changed to something else.

120mm mortars are being organized in batteries of nine tubes.
Source http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/iraqi_security_force_26.php

[DRG]

OK Marcello but it's time to take a little break from this and wait for the patch to come out. I do not have time to change, adjust and test OOB's and picklists any longer.

Don

[Marcello]

OK, I will let this thread rest for the time being...

[DRG]

:cheers::party::party::cheers:

[Ramm]

:cheers::party::party::cheers:

:lol DRG is relieved of a odious burden and is overjoyed :D

Andrew

[DRG]

Marcello, do you have PM's turned off ?

Don

[Marcello]

Marcello, do you have PM's turned off ?

Don

I will check the settings, the usual pop up did not show up.
Did you get my PM?

[DRG]

Yes