Guide to communions

[Baalz]

Alright, seems like every couple months a new thread with questions about communions pops up so I figured I'd write a guide about communions, answer the common questions and go over the basics of how to use them effectively. Communions are potentially very powerful, potentially very dangerous, and definitely kinda confusing.

The basics.

Communions (and their interchangeable, less well known blood brother Sabbaths) are a way for mages to work together to become greater than the sum of their parts. The slaves both boost the magic power of the masters and soak up the fatigue of the spells cast resulting in masters who can cast big spells much longer than otherwise possible. Because of the fact that they keep soaking up fatigue after exhaustion - all the way up to 200 fatigue at which point they start taking damage and quickly die, it is often the case that a mismanaged communion causes catastrophic loss of mages even when you win. Many the player has sworn off communions after watching a dozen mages perish as Armageddon is opened up on the terrified and fleeing PD. In Dominions, bad luck can always render any carefully laid plans asunder, but understanding how to use communions will result in them being much more useful and much less dangerous (to you, hopefully they're quite dangerous to your opponent).

First it's important to understand the basic mechanics of the communion. Slaves boost the power of both slaves and masters inside the communion by 1 per power of 2. This means +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 8, etc. The masters are boosted in all paths which they already have, while the slaves are boosted in all paths whether they have them or not. The slave power is important for calculating the fatigue they receive for spells cast by the master. The specific mechanics of how fatigue is parsed out is not entirely clear, but roughly slaves will receive fatigue as if they cast the spell themselves (which is why the power level is important), divided by how many slaves there are. Encumbrance is not added to this calculation and significant extra fatigue is accrued if the slaves could not cast the spell themselves after the communion boost - another reason the slave power is important. The communion bonus does not show up on the character sheet, but it is effected by buffs. This means that so long as there are at least two slaves, all slaves will benefit from such spells as phoenix power for the purpose of soaking up fatigue. All commanders resolve their orders in the same order that they're listed in the strategic screen from top to bottom. This is particularly important to note for communions as any slaves acting in a turn sequentially before any masters act will be able to cast spells (and indeed will do so by default). This can be a really good or really bad thing (see below), so make sure you anticipate it. Note, there is no known way to alter the order the commanders act in, just to anticipate it and change which ones will be slaves and masters (and which ones you bring to battle). Note, all spells are resolved before movement or archery, so the order the commanders is only relevant for resolving spells - slaves will not be able to take any action other than spells regardless of what order they come in if any master casts a spell.

Here's a good example about how fatigue is split:


MaxWilson said:
3. The short answer is that fatigue is split between master/slaves BEFORE adjusting for path levels, but slaves also get the communion bonus to their paths for these purposes. If a spell is cast which requires D4 and 400 fatigue, and there are 4 slaves in the communion all with no Death paths, each slave and the master will take 80 fatigue, adjusted for path levels and drain (plus fatigue, for the master). With the +2 communion bonus for 4 slaves, each slave is D2 casting a D4 spell, and since they are 2 levels short they take triple fatigue damage or 240 fatigue (which I think means 40 fatigue gets converted to 4 HP damage). If you are N levels short you take (N+1) times fatigue, if you are N levels over you take 1/(N+1) times fatigue.




Putting together a successful communion is a lot like baking. You've got several different basic components which need to be properly balanced, and a few optional extras which can be used to add an interesting twist if you want. Just like baking, you can't stray too far away from the correct ratios or the bread won't rise resulting in best case reduced effectiveness of the communion, worst case a bunch of dead slaves. The basic components of course, are the masters and slaves, and choosing the correct ones to use is not as easy as it first seems. First, you've got to decide what type of thing you're baking, is it bread, or cookies, or a cake? There are several different types of communions, here are a couple recipes. Once you become familiar with them you will be able to tweak them without unbalancing the important factors and come up with your own recipes.

Classic communion - This communion is intended to rain down mid-line evocation spells in a never ending barrage. Masters should have an elemental path and you'll want to script something like falling fires, falling frost, magma eruption, thunderstrike, acid rain, blade wind or gifts from heaven. Slaves will either need one level in the same path or one of the masters will need to cast power of the spheres (or phoenix power, etc if all your masters are the same path). The really important thing to keep in mind with this communion is critical mass. You need to have *at least* 8 slaves, 10 is much safer to have a buffer against those stray arrows. Outside of that, as you add masters make sure you have more slaves than masters. 14 slaves, 12 masters is fine*, but if you're short on mages you'll want 10 slaves and 5 masters. The * is because you'll need to add a few extra slaves if you're spamming particularly fatiguing spells like Thunderstrike. Your masters will have +3 to all paths, which really helps those spells which scale with mage power. Your slaves will be at least level 4 after the boost, which means they should be taking only 1-3 fatigue or so per spell that is cast as the spells you're casting all have requirements of 3 or under and fatigue in the 30-50 range - this is important in order to keep your slaves from accumulating fatal fatigue. No worries as these are the spells the AI will choose once your scripting expires, and you should be able to go 15 or so turns before slaves start dying, making this quite a rare occurrence (not much stands up to 10 turns of such a barrage, you'll generally have won or lost by then).

Reverse communion - 2 or 3 masters then as many cheap slaves as you can muster. Your masters will cast power of the spheres then whatever other booster is appropriate (phoenix power, etc). For air spells you can use the third master to cast storm so that air power is an option. Now, all your slaves have been boosted 2 levels, so they can cast fun things like falling fire, thunderstrike, etc. Even lowly S1 mages are now capable of Soul Slaying. The fun thing about this one is it's a great way to use all those cheap researchers you've got with no other preparation. Leading a fight with three rounds of 10X Falling Fires makes quite a difference considering how cheap the mages are. Note, this communion takes advantage of one of the quirks of the communion, the fact that slaves can cast spells so long as they act sequentially before all masters in the turn sequence. Commanders resolve their orders in the same order that they're listed in the strategic screen. If for whatever reason you're not comfortable trying to get this order right you can have the masters retreat after casting the buffs - the buffs remain in effect. Note, the communion bonus does not affect slaves casting by themselves, only the buffs the masters cast help. Apparently the slaves are acting by themselves outside the communion.

Linebacker communion - 3 or 4 masters with varying paths and at least 10 slaves. This communion takes advantage of the fact that self buffs which affect a master also affect all slaves. The masters will cast as many self buffs as possible before the slaves wade forward into melee. This tactic works best with slaves that have more hitpoints and a good attack (like starspawn or vampire counts), but even just passing out frostbrands to your average poindexter before he is buffed with invulnerability, mistform, regeneration, quickness, luck, fire shield, astral shield and breath of winter - well, there are worse uses for a slew of S1 mages. Note, for this to work it's important that you have a sufficient number of slaves, otherwise the slaves will rack up too much fatigue during the buff cycle and be worthless for combat. Also, the slaves will not move or fire if any masters cast spells that round, so you can either have the masters join in the melee attac, retreat from the battle, or equip them with bows and script them to fire after all the buffing is done.

Kamikaze communion - 4 slaves as cheap as you can manage and 4-6 masters. This one is straightforward enough, the point is to boost the masters up two levels to give them access to the next tier of offensive spells (ie, giving A1 mages the ability to cast Thunderstrike). As the name implies, the slaves are not expected to survive. This can be a good way to pack a lot of firepower in a pinch.

Superman communion - The numbers on this one vary depending on what you're trying to accomplish, but the idea is to have a whole bunch of slaves and only one or two masters casting those really devastating spells. The classic example of this is Master Enslave communions, though there are other good choices for more modest uses like flaming arrows, fog warriors, darkness, etc. The important factors are that there are enough slaves and that the handful of spells which are cast are devastating enough to make the opportunity cost worthwhile of all these mages doing nothing else.

Alright, there's some basic recipes for your book, obviously you can start mix and matching them as you become more comfortable. Now for the optional twists previously mentioned.

The blood spell Sabbath Master is equivalent (and mutually interchangeable - you can join a communion by casting Sabbath Master) but functionally there are two big differences. The first is that Sabbath Master costs 100 fatigue, so casting it with a B1 mage will result in a pass out once you account for encumbrance. What makes up for this in a big way though is that nice little blood spell reinvigoration. If a master casts reinvigoration not only does it remove all his fatigue, it removes all the fatigue of all the slaves. For this reason strategic use of a single blood mage can as much as double the effectiveness of your communion.

Crystal/slave matrixes. These magic items allow non astral/blood mages to join a communion (note: they must still be mages of some type). The potential uses of this in combination with the linebacker or reverse communions should be obvious. One note of caution however, because of the fact that slaves rack up fatigue really fast if they don't have the paths for the spell the master is casting it's very important to have enough slaves to compensate for this if masters are casting spells which the slaves don't have paths in.

Keep in mind penetration goes up with the mage's power and sometimes extra penetration can be worthwhile even if you're not enabling extra spells. Have that S9 pretender lead all those S1 researchers you have in a communion before spamming enslave mind. It beats whatever the heck S1 mages would otherwise be casting.

Phoenix pyre can add an amusing twist to the linebacker communion as it can set off a devastating chain reaction. Expect this to be a fairly kamikaze move. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Some magic items cause their effect by autocasting a spell at the very beginning of combat such as a charcoal shield or crystal shield. These spells, if they're self buffs will effect slaves who are part of the communion so long as the item is worn by a master who is in the communion. Since the timing on this is such that the buff is cast before anyone can cast master/slave communion, this generally only effects people wearing crystal/slave matrixes (though pythium's communicants are an exception, and there may be others).

Hellpower is an interesting spell in combination with Sabbath, but rather difficult to use effectively. A master casting hellpower will result in every slave being effected by all the effects of hellpower, including being horror marked and having a chance of calling a horror. Obviously you seldom want a bunch of people calling horrors immediately after all your mages have been horror marked. This can be useful in two situation though. The first is if you are fighting a SC (or really anybody) who has already been seriously horror marked (if you're particularly baalzy, you might try to horror mark them the same fight before casting hell power) - horrors will attack the most horror marked units first. The second situation is a kamikaze linebacker move where you uber buff the slaves then don't care if they die. This is pretty wasteful though unless your slaves are tough enough to survive a couple AN hits from horrors. I have used this tactic successfully with LA Ulm's vampire counts (2b 2d), resulting in a dozen uber buffed, life draining, flying thugs...who happened to be immortal so no worries if they died. The nice thing about hell power is it not only increases magic power, it increases attack, defense, strength (hitpoints, I don't remember) so it's particularly useful in this case. Note, your slaves are going to rack up horror marks when you do this even if you win the fight, so use it sparingly even with immortals.


DrPraetorious said:

Communion masters generally carry valuable gems, possibly penetration boosting items, and seldom have to worry much about fatigue, obviously. So it's generally a good idea to protect your investment (vs. stray arrows, for example) by putting them in some armor.

This also goes to the question of how to protect a valuable communion if you are very communion dependent (for example, as Pythium or Ermor or Bogarus).

* Rune Smashers, Eyes of the Void and Spell Foci are all great for masters casting Shadow Blast or groovy stuff like master enslave.
* Masters spamming elemental attack spells want boosters, not for fatigue reduction, but for increased damage and/or area of effect. This is obviously true for most of them (note all the +s in the spell description) - what most people don't know is that the fatigue inflicted by the secondary wave (which is area 9!) from thunderstrike is also air-magic-dependant, so if you can push your air magic up higher it becomes much more devastating.
* A communion matrix is often a good investment even for a communion master who has astral. +1 turn of spell casting is a huge advantage, and for a big-spell communion, it is not expensive.
* 50% resistance to fire and cold more or less assure that you won't go down to a murdering winter or flames from the sky. Various combinations of armor and misc items grant this, but fire plate and a ring of ice is probably the cheapest way to go.

In the late game, murdering winter/flames from the sky are a virtual surety. If you have the Forge, absolutely forge fire plate and a ring of frost for each and every slave.




Meglobob said:
I have been using communion slave, banishmentx4, stay behind troops on a big communion. It works very well vs undead armies and is no real danger to your slaves because banishment is 0 fatigue. So why not cast it?

Works with any 1S 1H mage/priest.



An often overlooked aspect of the communion is the fact that it also buffs holy levels (as does power of the spheres). The flip side of what Meglobob suggests can be good - H6 priests spamming banishment are hideously effective at clearing out low level undead due of the exponential increase in effectiveness the power boost brings. You can even use crystal matrixes if you don't have astral priests, though keep in mind that they do need to be some flavor of mage for the matrix to work. No reason you can't, say slap a crystal matrix on a High inquisitor (3H 1F) then have lowly astral slaves boost him up to an undead popping juggernaut. Since banishment is 0 fatigue this makes a lot of sense to combine with a reverse communion - your buffed masters can banish away without fatiguing the slaves.

Sometimes it can be useful to pass out items which can "cast spells" to communion slaves so they can use them fatigue free (outside of encumberance), this can be a little dangerous though as you'll have to script your slaves to "cast spells" after your script runs out which means the AI might decide to cast something unexpected driving up your fatigue rather than the 0 cost item spell. Still, this works particularly well with standards of the damned because the life draining effect removes fatigue. Not cheap, but if you can manage to get one on each of your slaves you can have an effectively unlimited casting out of the communion on top of a slew of sniper slaves.

[DonCorazon]

Thanks for taking the time to write this!

I for one have been too lazy to even figure out communions (and a little scared I will accidentally microwave all my mages). While communions still sound like a pain, this guide may be my inspiration to try and figure them out, at least in SP. Sounds like a powerful tool I have been neglecting in my effort to conquer the world, which is failing miserably in all my MP games!

[llamabeast]

Are you sure about reinvigoration working on all the slaves? I thought I'd tested it once, and concluded it didn't work.

[Baalz]

llamabeast said:
Are you sure about reinvigoration working on all the slaves? I thought I'd tested it once, and concluded it didn't work.



Absolutely sure, I've used it several times.

[llamabeast]

Ok, I must have somehow tested it poorly then. That's very powerful!

[Zeldor]

Baalz:

I guess Phoenix Pyre, not Phoenix Power as a way to suicide your mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Yrkoon]

A bit of an exploit with communion : magic items auto-casting spells worn by communion members equipped with matrixes affect the other member of the communion.

In my case, a mage with a copper plate and and crystal matrix made the other communion members (matrixes too) have charge body at the beginning of the battle. Other items would certainly do the same (crystal shield for example, which auto-cast power of the spheres, ring of regeneration too).

I don't know if it works only for mages members of the communion before the start of the battle (matrixes), of if it works with members joining the communion on turn 1 (communion master and communion slave spells). Or if it works with non mages (a tug with a crystal matrix getting buffed by the mages's items).

It's an exploit in my opinion, so I didn't investigate it further. People with less ... morals ... might want to give it a try.

[Endoperez]

That can be done without items, simply by casting a spell with range: personal. A Master casting Power of the Spheres will give the effect to all slaves on the battlefield.

[vfb]

Yrkoon said:
A bit of an exploit with communion : magic items auto-casting spells worn by communion members equipped with matrixes affect the other member of the communion.

In my case, a mage with a copper plate and and crystal matrix made the other communion members (matrixes too) have charge body at the beginning of the battle. Other items would certainly do the same (crystal shield for example, which auto-cast power of the spheres, ring of regeneration too).
...



Not the ring of regen. Only "Charge Body" is auto-cast in the battle, resistances and regeneration are persistent outside battles. I don't know about the shield though.

If you had a big enough mass of slaves to spread out the casting fatigue, Hell Power followed by Returning might be fun to try sometime. Or would all the slaves have a 20% chance per round of being attacked by horrors too?

[MKDELTA]

Nice guide!

A theoretical question: A blood equivalent of a reverse communion. Let's say...a handful of Mictlanese mages, and some leaders. They go into Sabbath, with Reivinvigoration and all that. Then...the Master casts Hellpower. Now, will the chance of Horrors popping in be calculated as if all the mages had cast this spell, or as if just the master had cast the spell? In other words, does the chance of horrors popping in multiply with communions/sabbaths? I imagine Sabbath/communion + Hellpower could result in insane magepower, and since it gives such a huge boost it would sizeably cut down the fatigue burden of slaves...let's say we have a bunch of Rain Priests and uh oh hmmm High Priests Of The Sun as slaves. We got the magical mass destruction spells of evocation and so on. For masters, we got a HPOTS, a Priest King and a Moon Priest. They go into communion. HPOTS casts Summon Hellpower, the next one Casts Reinvigoration, Priest King casts Eagle Eyes and other nature buffs, Moon Priest uses Power of the Spheres and Astral buffs...now we have a bunch of Rain Priests and Sun Priests with +3 to all paths, increased precision, buffs etc. That is an INSANE boost. Not to mention the masters... I wonder how soon and how bad horrors would come in. Maybe some decent (magical, blessed?) bodyguards could fend them off...if not, it could be used as a kamikaze communion of sorts. If using moon priests you could use regular communion, save some bloodslaves...with Hellpower & Power of the Spheres and maybe some booster items your Master(s) could be up in Master Enslave levels, or maybe beyond...

Someone has to test this. It might be insanely powerful, or then just a suicide.

[Endoperez]

You could start it with a few castings of Astral Geysers, horror-marking enemy units.

I think horrors would, indeed, come. Phoenix Pyre, as an example, makes the caster explode and reincarnate upon death - but both caster and slaves are affected. Similarly, Hell Power gives the caster +2 magic and gives 20% chance of horror attack. I presume both effects also affect the slaves. They are part of the same spell. Otherwise, it'd be like Phoenix Pyre bringing the dead slaves back, without explosion or fatigue. You shouldn't get one without the other.

[Zeldor]

Endoperez:

From what I've seen Phoenix Pyre makes communion explode and not reincarnate. Probably because of fatigue

[MKDELTA]

Endoperez said:
You could start it with a few castings of Astral Geysers, horror-marking enemy units.

I think horrors would, indeed, come. Phoenix Pyre, as an example, makes the caster explode and reincarnate upon death - but both caster and slaves are affected. Similarly, Hell Power gives the caster +2 magic and gives 20% chance of horror attack. I presume both effects also affect the slaves. They are part of the same spell. Otherwise, it'd be like Phoenix Pyre bringing the dead slaves back, without explosion or fatigue. You shouldn't get one without the other.


Yeah, but we'll never know for sure unless we/I test it. Also, would horror marking actualy make the horrors prioritize enemy units? Oh joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That would make it a neat ultimate sadistic and hilarious kamikaze (maybe not if you got Returning) sabbath.

[Baalz]

Added a section on Hellpower at the end. I have tested and used it, I didn't originally include it in the guide because its very difficult to use effectively.

Also added a section regarding item autocasts.

[AlgaeNymph]

Baalz said:
This means that so long as there are at least two slaves, all slaves will benefit from such spells as phoenix power for the purpose of soaking up fatigue.

So if I have 8+ S1 slaves boosting a fire mage, they won't have fatigue penalties if the master casts phoenix power?

[Baalz]

Not sure I understand exactly what you're asking, but 8 slaves who have no fire magic will get a +3 boost, resulting in a fire level of 3. The master casting phoenix power will boost this to 4 (the slaves will take fatigue from that spell as if they were level 3). At that point they will soak up all fatigue as F4 mages.

[LDiCesare]

I don't think magic paths you don't have are boosted, so " no fire magic will get a +3 boost" is probably wrong.
Otherwise, communion would open all paths to all mages (except you may not script them without copying orders from another commander). I don't think it does that.

[thejeff]

Apparently they're boosted for the slaves for the purposes of absorbing fatigue from the masters only.
You still can't cast (with either slave or master) from paths you don't have.

Slaves do pick up the side effects of the booster spells: fire resistance from Phoenix Power and reinvig from Summon Earthpower.

[Torin]

the manual doesn`t say the slaves are boosted. do you know this by testing?

[llamabeast]

Yeah, they are. The manual is not too hot on communions.

[thejeff]

The manual, as far as I can tell, says nothing about how fatigue is divided in communions, other than that the slaves share the fatigue.

I tried doing some testing this weekend and what it proved to me was that I couldn't even get fatigue without communions right. The manual says fatigue should be the given fatigue for the spell times 1/(1+(magic skill - minimum skill)) plus spell casting encumbrance.

I tried this with Arcosephale, because I wanted to see how fatigue got spread around communions with various paths boosted and/or missing.

Before I even got to the communion I saw:
My prophet casting holy spells (0 fatigue) with 10 encumbrance, got a straight 10 fatigue every time.
A Priestess, with 3 encumbrance, got 3 fatigue for every holy spell.
Then she cast Protection, which is N1, 20 fatigue and gained 27 fatigue, not 23.

Mystics are also 3 fatigue and those with 1S also got 27 fatigue when casting Communion Slave
A Mystic with 2S got 15 fatigue from Communion Slave, not (1/(1+2-1))*20+3 = 13
Casting Body Ethereal, which is still 1S, but 30 fatigue, the 1S Mystic got 39 fatigue and the 2S got 21.

Once the Communion was up with 8 slaves, the Master cast PotS and got 6 fatigue. He started with 1S.
The slaves who started with 1S got 4 fatigue and those who started with 2S got 3.
I can't even try to calculate that out, until I understand the non-communioned results.

So, is the manual wrong about fatigue calculations, or am I misinterpreting something?

[Baalz]

I also tried to figure out how fatigue was calculated (before throwing my hands up and saying it wasn't obvious). On top of the things you mention I also saw weird stuff like different levels of fatigue on slaves who had the same magic paths and were the same unit type, and reinvigoration not removing all the fatigue from some of the slaves (or perhaps it removed the fatigue on some before fatiguing them for the casting, and some after). Some of this is probably rounding type differences.

All in all, my conclusion was that the fatigue calculations in the book were not exactly correct but were close enough for rough strategic planning. Use the formula you reference above (don't count encumbrance), divide by the number of slaves and that's *about* how much fatigue each slave will get. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Torin]

The encumbrance added fatigue it´s twice the encumbrance according to the manual

[thejeff]

I don't have the manual in front of me, but I think it's only encumbrance from armor that's doubled. And that's reflected in the spell casting encumbrance shown under the detailed fatigue.

On first glance, it looks to me like fatigue from encumbrance is boosted based on the base cost for the spell. But not in any even or obvious fashion. I'll have to look at casters with different encumbrances.

[AlgaeNymph]

Baalz said:
Not sure I understand exactly what you're asking, but 8 slaves who have no fire magic will get a +3 boost, resulting in a fire level of 3.

But since the slaves never had any fire levels to begin with, wouldn't they incur a fatigue penalty without the phoenix power?

(I should've been clearer with my quote selection.)

[Baalz]

No, the slaves gain the communion bonus for all paths, including the ones they don't have at all - solely for the purpose of calculating fatigue absorbed through the communion. So that gives them 0+3 in this case, plenty to cast phoenix power.

[thejeff]

OK, I've figured out what I was missing in the basic fatigue calculations: Drain.

The real calculation is:
given fatigue for the spell time (1 + .1*Drain scale) times 1/(1+(magic skill - minimum skill)) plus spell casting encumbrance.
The battle I was examining took place in Drain 2, so for Body Ethereal, 30 * 1.2 = 36 +3encumbrance = 39
or 36/2 = 18+3 encumbrance = 21.

Communion fatigue makes some more sense now:
PotS becomes 120 fatigue/8 = 15
which is 15/4 = 3.75 ~= 4 for slaves with 1S(+3)
15/5 = 3 for slaves with 2S(+3)
Which is right
The master got 6, which isn't clear. 1S+3 +encumbrance should have been 7.
Encumbrance only applies to the master, but is also reduced somehow? Which makes sense, since I'm pretty sure some of the later spells only gave 1 or 2 fatigue.

[LDiCesare]

I wonder, if slaves' level is boosted for soaking fatigue only, what about the reverse communion?
You have a master and, say 8 slaves. The master leaves or stops casting. Do the slaves get the fatigue level boost for casting their own spells?

[Baalz]

No, the point of the reverse communion is that a bunch of level 1 mages get the benefit of power of the spheres and phoenix/earth/air power (and whatever other self buffs the masters cast). They gain no benefit implicitly from the communion as when they're casting spells they're doing so outside the communion.

So, a 1S 1F slave gets +1 F from the master casting phoenix power, and +1 from another one casting power of the spheres - this bonus (after it is in effect that is) is not tied to the communion. The slave acting on his own is now a level 3 fire mage and can cast falling fires. The master can leave the battlefield, or if he acts after the slaves can still cast spells without mucking things up.

[DrPraetorious]

One thing not mentioned in this article is the benefit of armored communions.

Communion masters generally carry valuable gems, possibly penetration boosting items, and seldom have to worry much about fatigue, obviously. So it's generally a good idea to protect your investment (vs. stray arrows, for example) by putting them in some armor.

This also goes to the question of how to protect a valuable communion if you are very communion dependent (for example, as Pythium or Ermor or Bogarus).

* Rune Smashers, Eyes of the Void and Spell Foci are all great for masters casting Shadow Blast or groovy stuff like master enslave.
* Masters spamming elemental attack spells want boosters, not for fatigue reduction, but for increased damage and/or area of effect. This is obviously true for most of them (note all the +s in the spell description) - what most people don't know is that the fatigue inflicted by the secondary wave (which is area 9!) from thunderstrike is also air-magic-dependant, so if you can push your air magic up higher it becomes much more devastating.
* A communion matrix is often a good investment even for a communion master who has astral. +1 turn of spell casting is a huge advantage, and for a big-spell communion, it is not expensive.
* 50% resistance to fire and cold more or less assure that you won't go down to a murdering winter or flames from the sky. Various combinations of armor and misc items grant this, but fire plate and a ring of ice is probably the cheapest way to go.

In the late game, murdering winter/flames from the sky are a virtual surety. If you have the Forge, absolutely forge fire plate and a ring of frost for each and every slave.

[Baalz]

Good points DrP, I updated the original post to include this info.

[Agema]

I've got a query.

In a game I set up three masters (two S3E1, one S1W1E1F1) and at least four slaves (S1-2; E0-1; W0-1). I set the S3 masters to earthpower, then blade wind, the other master to cast acid rain. They were placed about mid-way in the set-up area. Instead of doing what I ordered, they cast other buffs and then stuff like mind burn.

I thought I might have been out of range as my enemy was set up at the back of the battlefield, so I put my mages very close to the front. Then, same situation second battle, they just cast buffs and troop buffs.

Is a 25-30 range spell still unable to reach the back of the battlefield from the front of my setup area, or is there another problem?

[Drake49]

I THINK that each player has a 20 square long field with 10 squares between them. I think the field gets wider with huge numbers of undead and such.

[Baalz]

Yes, this behavior is consistent with the mages either not having appropriate targets or not being able to cast the spells you have scripted. I assume earthpower went off correctly? Most of the mid line evocation spells have ranges that make them mostly useful for hitting swarms of guys charging forward to meet your own infantry halfway.

[DonCorazon]

So in the Classic Communion, do you generally have communion slaves casting spells? I imagined they would be scripted to cast Communion Slave and then to Stay Behind Troops and absorb the fatigue, but the guide sounds like in many cases the slaves also make good spellcasters.

[sector24]

Depends on the spell mostly. If you're spamming low level evocations your magic path (boosted through the communion) is high enough, you may only be giving your slaves like 4 fatigue. In that case it should be fine for the slaves to cast themselves to 100 fatigue, and then it will still be a long time before they get to 200 and start taking damage.

On the other hand if you're casting battlefield wide spells that have several hundred fatigue attached to them, you probably don't want your slaves casting additional spells.

[Baalz]

Having the slaves in the classic communion cast spells is a dangerous move best reserved for battles you're not sure you can win otherwise. The reason is because going 15 turns before slaves die will take you through most battles, but if you can only last 10 turns you'll often find your slaves dying as your masters try to hit the fleeing remnants of your enemy. Not much more annoying than that...;)

[Jazzepi]

Baalz said:
Having the slaves in the classic communion cast spells is a dangerous move best reserved for battles you're not sure you can win otherwise. The reason is because going 15 turns before slaves die will take you through most battles, but if you can only last 10 turns you'll often find your slaves dying as your masters try to hit the fleeing remnants of your enemy. Not much more annoying than that...;)



I think this really just depends. When I was playing Arco I was able to always have my slaves spamming soul slay. Since my communions were built around a Banner of the Northern Light + Power of the Spheres, a guy who already has 3 astral isn't going to be paying much fatigue to cast Soul Slay.

Jazzepi

[Meglobob]

I have been using communion slave, banishmentx4, stay behind troops on a big communion. It works very well vs undead armies and is no real danger to your slaves because banishment is 0 fatigue. So why not cast it?

Works with any 1S 1H mage/priest.

[Zeldor]

Jazzepi:

But problem is that you can just script for 5 turns, in late game when you have expensive spells researched masters will cast them, even if they are totally useless [for example enemy slowly routing]. And casting 100+ fatigue spells every turn is exhausting. Especially when you add Phenix Pyre to that you have nice effect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Baalz:

Many nations can access higher level battle spells only through communions, so hard to avoid them or use just low level spells.

[Gregstrom]

The simple answer is not to leave the casters with surplus gems. Then they flat-out can't cast anything with 100+ fatigue.

[triqui]

Baalz said:So, a 1S 1F slave gets +1 F from the master casting phoenix power, and +1 from another one casting power of the spheres - this bonus (after it is in effect that is) is not tied to the communion. The slave acting on his own is now a level 3 fire mage and can cast falling fires. The master can leave the battlefield, or if he acts after the slaves can still cast spells without mucking things up.

Does the last sentence means that if the master cast a spell before the slave does, slave cant cast spells on his own?

[Shovah32]

Yes. If any master has cast a spell, no slaves may cast for that round of battle.

[Baalz]

Meglobob said:
I have been using communion slave, banishmentx4, stay behind troops on a big communion. It works very well vs undead armies and is no real danger to your slaves because banishment is 0 fatigue. So why not cast it?

Works with any 1S 1H mage/priest.



Oops, yeah I forgot to mention this, adding it to the guide.

[IndyPendant]

I have another question:

In one of my MP games, I tried to take Indy provinces (it's a big map) by having five Thaumaturgs (1S1D2H) lead a horde of Shadow Vestals and Longdead Horsemen. I had them each scripted thus:

Com Slave/Divine Blessing/Spells
Com Slave/Unholy Blessing/Spells
Com Slave/Prot of the Sepulchre/Spells
Com Slave/Pwr of the Sepulchre/Spells
Com Master/Spells

When I reviewed the battle results, these orders were ignored. They cast the Communion Master and Communion Slaves spells, but then ignored *ALL* of the holy/unholy buffing spells, and just cast essentially random spells instead. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: Meanwhile, in another battle with another player, by Grand Thaum cast the holy/unholy buffing spells when fighting just some PD of 10-20 or so...

--IndyPendant.

[vfb]

IndyPendant said:
I have another question:

In one of my MP games, I tried to take Indy provinces (it's a big map) by having five Thaumaturgs (1S1D2H) lead a horde of Shadow Vestals and Longdead Horsemen. I had them each scripted thus:

Com Slave/Divine Blessing/Spells
Com Slave/Unholy Blessing/Spells
Com Slave/Prot of the Sepulchre/Spells
Com Slave/Pwr of the Sepulchre/Spells
Com Master/Spells

When I reviewed the battle results, these orders were ignored. They cast the Communion Master and Communion Slaves spells, but then ignored *ALL* of the holy/unholy buffing spells, and just cast essentially random spells instead. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: Meanwhile, in another battle with another player, by Grand Thaum cast the holy/unholy buffing spells when fighting just some PD of 10-20 or so...

--IndyPendant.



Only the communion master gets a boost to his paths.

You could have added more casters and done:

Com Slave/?
Com Slave/?
Com Slave/?
Com Slave/?
Com Master/Divine Blessing/?
Com Master/Unholy Blessing/?
Com Master/Prot of the Sepulchre/?
Com Master/Pwr of the Sepulchre/?

In this case if all scripted spells are H? and the battle doesn't go too long, your 4 slaves won't die of fatigue.

Edit

Oops, got confused, you are talking about H2s. So a single cast of Power of the Spheres would be sufficient boost:


Com Slave/?/Divine Blessing/?
Com Slave/?/Unholy Blessing/?
Com Slave/?/Prot of the Sepulchre/?
Com Slave/?/Pwr of the Sepulchre/? <-- edit: H4, won't work
Com Master/Pwr of the Spheres/?

OR

Com Slave/?
Com Slave/?
Com Master/Divine Blessing/?
Com Master/Unholy Blessing/?
Com Master/Prot of the Sepulchre/?
Com Master/Pwr of the Sepulchre/? <-- edit: H4, won't work

[IndyPendant]

Aha, very simple error. Slaves only have their magic levels increased for fatigue calculation, not for determining what spells they can cast. Thanks, vfb.

[DonCorazon]

Does the order of casting matter? I noticed in these examples, the CS always casts Communion Slave first, the the CM casts Communion Master? And if order does matter, is there a way to rearrange the order of how you set up Commander's actions?

Thanks

[Gregstrom]

Mages cast in the order you see them on the army setup screen.

Baalz - perhaps this information should be in your guide. It's very important for setting up communions to do what you want, and doesn't appear to be widely known.

[vfb]

DonCorazon said:
Does the order of casting matter? I noticed in these examples, the CS always casts Communion Slave first, the the CM casts Communion Master? And if order does matter, is there a way to rearrange the order of how you set up Commander's actions?

Thanks



As explained in Baalz's excellent communion guide, slaves can only cast spells in a round if no master has cast a spell in that round yet. As Gregstrom said, commanders act in order from top to bottom. Some of the examples had slaves casting, that's why I put them first.

There is no way of moving commanders up or down to change the order. But, of course, you may have some choice in which mage will be a slave, and which will be a master.

[Zeldor]

Anyone knows how does it put them in that order? Newly recruited mage may land in the 1st position, middle or end of the order.

[Gregstrom]

Can't say for sure, but it's probably ordered by unit id#.

[edit] I don't know how to see a units' id#, AFAIK the number is fixed once the unit is bought, and I don't believe there's a way to find out what id# a unit will have at the point you buy it.

[thejeff]

And they're recycled as units die. Which explains how new units get sorted above older ones.

Numbers for units that can be brought back from the dead must stay, but that's only a small fraction: Pretenders and the Hall, right?

[DonCorazon]

In addition to Slaves casting a variety of spells, I was referring to the actual casting of Communion Slave and Communion Master. So my question was, in the first round, should all the Communion Slaves cast Communion Slave before any Communion Masters cast Communion Master?

[Gregstrom]

It depends on whether you want the Slaves to cast in the same rounds as the Masters do or not.

Slaves that act before Masters get to cast. Slaves acting after Masters lose their action if the Master casts a spell, meaning you don't cast as many spells but the slaves don't get so badly fatigued.

[Baalz]

DonCorazon said:
In addition to Slaves casting a variety of spells, I was referring to the actual casting of Communion Slave and Communion Master. So my question was, in the first round, should all the Communion Slaves cast Communion Slave before any Communion Masters cast Communion Master?



First round doesn't matter, you're not in the communion until after the spell is cast. Of course, the order is the same for every round of combat, so any slaves who go first on round one will also be casting spells in the following rounds, which you may or may not want.

[thejeff]

And, just to be clear, all slaves are added to the communion, whenever they cast Communion Slave. (Same with Masters)

The only thing casting order matters for is whether slaves can cast independently or not.

[yandav]

A little question just for fun: what happens if someone cast both communion master and sabbath master? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gregstrom]

They kill a blood slave to no good purpose?

[Baalz]

Yeah, there's lots of times that different spells cause the same effect and the second spell doesn't actually do anything.

Strength of giants/rush of strength
Iron Will/Anti magic

And I suppose
Regeneration/personal regeneration
etc.

[capnq]

thejeff said: The only thing casting order matters for is whether slaves can cast independently or not.

I just noticed that according to the stickied Bug Thread: The Shortlist, slaves being able to do this is a bug?

[theenemy]

Nice guide Baalz. To much reading for me but it was still great. I always had it tough using communion since I didn't understand how to use it.

[Twan]

Do someone know how to know the order of mages coming from different provinces ? Is it sure the one displayed with "y" is the good one, and if I send mages to a province where there are already some, will those already in the province cast first ?

I try to do a (partially reverse) communion with mages coming from 4 provinces to one where there are already some communiants, using 'y' to see the order (but as all can't move to a same province I can't be totally sure, as all mages can't move to the same province I'm forced to do false moves to group destination mages with one other group then another etc..., and I'm not even sure 'y' works for that purpose).

ps :


I just noticed that according to the stickied Bug Thread: The Shortlist, slaves being able to do this is a bug?



The strange thing is : nowhere in the spell description or manual it is said that slaves aren't supposed to be able to cast (nor "to be able only if they cast before master"). I think communion slave spell description should be changed to be more clear (as it is, only old dom2 players remembering dom2 manual may know that casting slaves isn't a normal behavior).

[Kuritza]

I must say, its a really cool feature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Dunno, perhaps it makes communions overpowered, but its cool for sure. Finally, some use to Power of the spheres that costs too much fatique otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[LDiCesare]

It's clearly a bug imo.
Either all slaves can cast spells or none of them, but those who have a lower id can cast is indeed buggy.

Now, if you use 32 communicants and 1 master just to empower them, you don't really need the master to cast spells afterward anyway.

[Kuritza]

Let us swap commanders ID's for good! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[SsSam]

Has this been changed in a recent patch? I cant get my communion slaves to do scripted action under any circumstances where a communion master is on the field of battle.

Pythium MA.
4 Theurg Communicants armed with bows of war scripted to fire at closest.

2 regular Theurgs scripted to buff. master/ether/quickness/luck/mistform
master/divine bless/aim/windguide/fanaticism

I've tried with Theurg Communicants as the slaves and with regular Theurg's scripted to cast communion slave/fire at closest.

The slaves appear above the masters in the army setup screen.
The bows never fire while the communion masters are on the field of battle. What have I missed?

[Twan]

Strange. I don't think anything has been fixed recently, last time I used one, reverse communions seemed to work as described in this guide, at least if you script slaves to cast spells (perhaps only the order "fire" is discarded ? or there was a fix in 3.15 I didn't noticed)

[thejeff]

Theurg Communicants are Pythiums auto commune slaves, right?
They may be handled differently?

Did they fire even the first turn?

Also, with that few slaves, they'll go unconscious quickly.

[SsSam]

No they never fired.

Fatigue stayed well below 100 for the first 8 turns or so. All of the non-casters in the communion just ...stay put.

I tried with regular Theurgs as well as Theurg Communicants. Either it's changed or I've missed something basic.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, can you get them to cast spells? I actually haven't equipped bows on the slaves in quite a while so I suppose it might have changed, but I have the slaves cast spells all the time....er...though I suppose not in 3.15 yet. Seems unlikely such a change snuck in unannounced though.

[SsSam]

Yes, my Theurgs will cast spells as slaves.
They will also cast scripted spells as slaves.
They (both Theurgs and Theurg Communicants) will use the bows when they are not in a communion.
In a communion as slaves I can't get them to use the bows. They do appear above the masters in the army setup screen.

It does seem like a large thing to be altered without being mentioned in a change log. ....

[Baalz]

It is possible I've misremembered how this works, as I said it's not my usual MO. I'll test it out tonight to verify what you're saying and update the guide.

[thejeff]

So spells work, but not bows. Interesting. Makes sense, actually.

Spells come before firing in the turn sequence. So by the firing comes up, the masters have cast, used the slaves fatigue and the slaves count as having acted.

[Baalz]

I verified that it does indeed work as thejeff suggests. Movement and Melee as well, they resolve after the casting phase. The only way to leverage this is to have an item which casts spells, though with anybody except the communicant this leaves the window open for the AI to cast something else after the first 5 turns.

Anyway, thanks for the catch, I've updated the guide.

[SsSam]

Ok. Thanks for the explanation.

Since Pythium is archer-poor. I was thinking it would be a nice little surprise to buff up some communicants to reign down fire arrows on the other side.

Given that's the case. There seems to be little use for the communicants. Sure, the Theurgs are more expensive, but they're a lot more versatile as well.

[Baalz]

Yes, the primary problem with communicants is that of opportunity cost. As you point out, you could have theurgs instead, and you've got a limited number of castles. I will say though that in testing this last night I did do a very nasty linebacker communion with communicants - 8 slaves, 3 masters. Masters cast mistform, personal luck, twist fate, quicken self, mirror image, breath of winter, then the masters fired the bows I had equipped to them. Pretty hideous damage output and the mistform + luck + twist fate made the communicants last plenty long enough wielding that quickened frostbrand to deadly effect....

[DonCorazon]

In a recent post here:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=605960&Main=605912#Post60 5960
some info was added that seemed relevant to help clarify the danger of communion boosting for high level spells when your slaves don't have the the right paths. It may be in the guide but I thought this spelled it out pretty well and may be worth including in the Superman section:


MaxWilson said:
3. The short answer is that fatigue is split between master/slaves BEFORE adjusting for path levels, but slaves also get the communion bonus to their paths for these purposes. If a spell is cast which requires D4 and 400 fatigue, and there are 4 slaves in the communion all with no Death paths, each slave and the master will take 80 fatigue, adjusted for path levels and drain (plus fatigue, for the master). With the +2 communion bonus for 4 slaves, each slave is D2 casting a D4 spell, and since they are 2 levels short they take triple fatigue damage or 240 fatigue (which I think means 40 fatigue gets converted to 4 HP damage). If you are N levels short you take (N+1) times fatigue, if you are N levels over you take 1/(N+1) times fatigue.

[Baalz]

Thanks Don, added it to the original.

[ano]

I just thought about a nice trick. If you have tough slaves with regen (Ulmish Vampire counts are a good example), then when you cast Holy Avenger with your master, every single point of damage done to slaves through fatigue will result in a nice smiting divine bolt. Needs testing, but I'm pretty sure it should work)

[MaxWilson]

It doesn't hurt, unless you have something better to cast on them. It's not every point of damage, of course, only every round in which they take damage.

-Max

[Immaculate]

If one of the masters is sacred and gets a bless do non-sacred slaves get the bless effect?

[thejeff]

No. For 2 reasons. First, they're not sacred so wouldn't get it.
Second bless isn't a caster target spell, so they wouldn't be affected by the master getting blessed even if they were sacred.

[zzcat]

MaxWilson said:
3. The short answer is that fatigue is split between master/slaves BEFORE adjusting for path levels, but slaves also get the communion bonus to their paths for these purposes. If a spell is cast which requires D4 and 400 fatigue, and there are 4 slaves in the communion all with no Death paths, each slave and the master will take 80 fatigue, adjusted for path levels and drain (plus fatigue, for the master). With the +2 communion bonus for 4 slaves, each slave is D2 casting a D4 spell, and since they are 2 levels short they take triple fatigue damage or 240 fatigue (which I think means 40 fatigue gets converted to 4 HP damage). If you are N levels short you take (N+1) times fatigue, if you are N levels over you take 1/(N+1) times fatigue.


Does it help if the master spends addtional gems? In this case, using 2 more D gems to reduce 160 fatigue for each slave seems very cost-effective.

[Fantomen]

I´m not sure, but I think that extra gems reduce fatigue only for the caster, not for the slaves.

[earcaraxe]

Hi!

There r some fact that i cant deduce from what i have read here and in the manual. I was experiencing (its my first try) with communions this morning, trying to get a feel for it. Here is the list of my commanders:

A - basic mictlan priest, B1H1, enc3
B - mictlan priest with 1 exp. star, B1H1, enc3
C - tepeyocatl A1B1, enc 4
D - hpots, B3F2H3, enc 6

D has 30 blood slaves. (it seems that unlike the other gems, blood slaves are common goods, every commander can use the other's (btw: from what distance can a mage use a blood slave in combat?).

The battle takes place in magic+1.

1 round:
A,B,C casts sabbath slave. using 1 slave apiece, so we r down to 27. A,B gets to 93 fatigue (that I understand), but C to 95 (i think it should be 94 but nvm, its only 1 diff), then D casts sabbath master: number of slaves: 24, so D's fatigue is 28 (just as i expected).

2. round:
D casts hell power. reamining slaves:21. its fatigue is 300 (270 with M+1), so each participant gets about 67. D has B4 now, so it's 33 for him, plus enc, so theoretically he gets to about 33+28=61, which is in reality 60, but its ok. Now the slaves get their share of the fatigue. They get 67 apiece, but because they r just B2 mages (HP is a B3 spell), it should mean 93(1st round)+134(HP)+3(enc)=240 total fatigue for A, right?
In reality his fatigue is just 157, which means he got 64 fatigue from th hell power spell. Its about the one-fourth of 270, so it seems he didnt get penalized for having only B2 for a B3 spell. (?) (its not that he gains HP's effect first then fatigue second, because the master didnt get it either)

3. round:
D casts Reinvigoration. new fatigues: A:53,B:47:,C:53,D:0. Counting the reinvigoration5 they got from hell power, thats about -100 fatigue on the slaves (for some mysterious reason B got a little less).

It worth mentioning, that for Reinvigoration D used 2 extra slaves, but didnt need to. My perception is that pots dont cast Reinvigoration unless i script it, and they always used 2 extra slaves so far (two tries only, so small pool of evidences, but its totally needless)


after the 5th round three lesser horrors appeared to indicate their appreciation for the invitation for lunch. They left well fed.

I'd appreciate any comments, but the main question is: why did the slaves get 64 fatigue instead of 134 on the second ruond?

[vfb]

Hell Power boosts all paths by 2, not 1.

[thejeff]

Right, but they shouldn't get the effects of Hell Power when casting it, should they? The B2 (for fatigue from the master's spells only) is from the communion.

But then I don't even understand why they only get 93-95 fatigue from Sabbath Slave. Shouldn't they get 100+enc?

[Gregstrom]

Magic-1 scale gives 10% less fatigue?

[thejeff]

Right. Missed that.

[chrispedersen]

Hi!

There r some fact that i cant deduce from what i have read here and in the manual. I was experiencing (its my first try) with communions this morning, trying to get a feel for it. Here is the list of my commanders:

A - basic mictlan priest, B1H1, enc3
B - mictlan priest with 1 exp. star, B1H1, enc3
C - tepeyocatl A1B1, enc 4
D - hpots, B3F2H3, enc 6

D has 30 blood slaves. (it seems that unlike the other gems, blood slaves are common goods, every commander can use the other's (btw: from what distance can a mage use a blood slave in combat?).

The battle takes place in magic+1.

1 round:
A,B,C casts sabbath slave. using 1 slave apiece, so we r down to 27. A,B gets to 93 fatigue (that I understand), but C to 95 (i think it should be 94 but nvm, its only 1 diff), then D casts sabbath master: number of slaves: 24, so D's fatigue is 28 (just as i expected).

2. round:
D casts hell power. reamining slaves:21. its fatigue is 300 (270 with M+1), so each participant gets about 67. D has B4 now, so it's 33 for him, plus enc, so theoretically he gets to about 33+28=61, which is in reality 60, but its ok. Now the slaves get their share of the fatigue. They get 67 apiece, but because they r just B2 mages (HP is a B3 spell), it should mean 93(1st round)+134(HP)+3(enc)=240 total fatigue for A, right?
In reality his fatigue is just 157, which means he got 64 fatigue from th hell power spell. Its about the one-fourth of 270, so it seems he didnt get penalized for having only B2 for a B3 spell. (?) (its not that he gains HP's effect first then fatigue second, because the master didnt get it either)


300*[1/((4-3)+1)] = 150 fatigue; per person/4 = 37.5 ish per person. However, they are incapable (at b2) of casting the spell, so the encumbrance is doubled.

37.5 * 2 = 75 + 2*2 (their armor encumbrance) + (6/4)*2 = 3.
so the encumbrance should be 82.

You didn't say if this is under vanilla or cbm so the fatigue can vary between 99, 100-, etc.

So after the first round 93 + 82 second round = 175 minus the second turn recuperate. Also minus any additional negatives due to province magic scales.




3. round:
D casts Reinvigoration. new fatigues: A:53,B:47:,C:53,D:0. Counting the reinvigoration5 they got from hell power, thats about -100 fatigue on the slaves (for some mysterious reason B got a little less).

It worth mentioning, that for Reinvigoration D used 2 extra slaves, but didnt need to. My perception is that pots dont cast Reinvigoration unless i script it, and they always used 2 extra slaves so far (two tries only, so small pool of evidences, but its totally needless)



The AI will almost always use gems if casting a spell without gems will result in fatigue going over 100.

I do not off the top of my head remember the cost for Reinvigorate. I seem to recall 300. Regardless, so long as the fatigue is at least 100, all the slaves will cap at 200.

My guess is that reinvigorate is something like b^2*DRN. This is my personal guess, and nowhere documented.

175 fatigue ( -8 province - 4 recuperate) = 163 fatigue
- 16*7=112 fatigue is 51ish fatigue.

[thejeff]

Wait, is that how it works? Fatigue based on the masters level (w/ Communion bonus), divided by # in the communion then adjusted for the slaves level?
I'd thought it was base fatigue divided among the participants, then adjusted for each one's level.
That'll come out the same if casting spells at the master's effective level, but reduce slave fatigue drastically for lower level spells.

[Torin]

What about a group of mages casting communion slave without masters?
Do they boost each other paths?

[BigDaddy]

The Baalz guide seems to indicate so, but only for the puposes of taking fatigue... which would be what you're probably after. That would be very effective with warlocks if it was the case.

I also wonder... if you have just one high level mage be the slave, can't your little mages be spam casters? Say if the FoB 10B is the slave, you get sacked early on, and all your magelings cast Agony? The 10B blood fountain can cast agony a whole bunch of times, far more than most armies could ever endure.

[Squirrelloid]

Slaves without masters are pointless. Their paths are boosted but only for the purpose of absorbing fatigue *from spells cast by masters*.

[chrispedersen]

The Baalz guide seems to indicate so, but only for the puposes of taking fatigue... which would be what you're probably after. That would be very effective with warlocks if it was the case.

I also wonder... if you have just one high level mage be the slave, can't your little mages be spam casters? Say if the FoB 10B is the slave, you get sacked early on, and all your magelings cast Agony? The 10B blood fountain can cast agony a whole bunch of times, far more than most armies could ever endure.

No. Slaves casting communion slaves *without* a master do not have their levels boosted.

However, untested, and yet I believe it to be true - once any communion master is cast, the slaves retain the boost even if the master dies or retreats.

[Squirrelloid]

The Baalz guide seems to indicate so, but only for the puposes of taking fatigue... which would be what you're probably after. That would be very effective with warlocks if it was the case.

I also wonder... if you have just one high level mage be the slave, can't your little mages be spam casters? Say if the FoB 10B is the slave, you get sacked early on, and all your magelings cast Agony? The 10B blood fountain can cast agony a whole bunch of times, far more than most armies could ever endure.

No. Slaves casting communion slaves *without* a master do not have their levels boosted.

However, untested, and yet I believe it to be true - once any communion master is cast, the slaves retain the boost even if the master dies or retreats.

Its not a general boost. It only applies to fatigue generated by spells cast by masters. So while the effect may persist if the master dies/retreats, it can't do anything.

[Ink]

With reverse communions you can have more mages in the communion actually casting spells, however in this case there is no communion fatigue reduction, and the slaves don't get boosted in their paths. What they do get is simply the buffs the masters cast on themselves. Thus, if a simple buff (such as earthpower) on all your mages would provide sufficient power/fatigue reduction to handle casting a desired spell, then it might be a better option than a normal communion.

A specialized type of reverse communion is the linebacker communion. The mechanic is the same: every slave gets whatever self buffs the masters cast. However now the idea is to turn a bunch of mages into thugs: have masters buff up with Invulnerability, Mistform, Regen, Quicken Self, Personal Luck, Twist Fate, and whatever else. Then a bunch of fragile mages suddenly become very difficult to kill. Masters can even retreat the battlefield once they cast their buffs, removing them from harm way, and the effect on the slaves continues (interestingly, the masters don't share all the buffs, they only get whatever they had cast).

I'm just waiting to see the Bogarus linebacker communion strategy: they are ripe for it. Maybe even better are the R'lyehs of all ages: all their mages are high hp and boast life drain.

[Jarkko]

Pans are excellent linebackers. If you have access to some indy mages with astral, you can buff them pretty close to insane efficiency. I still drool over the linebacker Pans I had in the Magellan game; had an amazon priestess with S1H1, amazon sorceress with S1A1 and a Pan acting as the masters -> the linebacker Pans got Holy Avenger, Luck, Ethereal form, ResistMagic, Astral Shield, Mistform, Shock Resistance, EarthPower, Stoneskin, Personal Regen, Elemental Fortitude and finally Reinvigoration (at which point the masters retreated off field and the linebackers went forwards to deal some pain).

It lasted for a very short while sadly, as then the Armageddons started and the amazons didn't live through them :(

[militarist]

Sorry.
"Slaves boost the power of both slaves and masters inside the communion by 1 per power of 2. This means +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 8, etc"

If +1 at 2 slaves than it would be +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 6, +4 at etc".

Where is the truth?

[fantasma]

the important part is power of 2.
2 = 2^1
4 = 2^2
8 = 2^3

...

[Jarkko]

Sorry.
"Slaves boost the power of both slaves and masters inside the communion by 1 per power of 2. This means +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 8, etc"

If +1 at 2 slaves than it would be +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 6, +4 at etc".

Where is the truth?

Don't quite understand your question, but it is +1 for 2, +2 for 4, +3 for 8, +4 for 16 and +5 for 32.

[militarist]

I just didn't understand "the power of 2". Just English is not my native. Now it's clear.

[thejeff]

"1 per power of 2"
The first 2 slaves get you +1. Then, every time you double the number of slaves you get another +1.
4 slaves -> +2
8 slaves -> +3
16 slaves -> +4
32 slaves -> +, etc

[Graeme Dice]

Power of two, not multiple of two. So it's +1 at 2^1 (2), +2 at 2^2 (4), +3 at 2^3 (8), +4 at 2^4 (16), etc.

[GrudgeBringer]

Mine is a different question (and pretty basic I would suppose).

I have never been a big communion guy until I ran into a fort filled with Mystics and NEVER could root the guy out the whole game. He had only one fort , but he had that dang fort the rest of the game.

of course I have read about them and even understand a little (enough to try a couple )but I have a question that seems basic but it confuses me.

Say I have 27 Mystics and want to form 3 communions (this isn't about what kind, it is a set up question). Does it matter in the scrpting portion where the CM's are vs the CS?

In other words, from what I understand the CM has to be on the bottom. I just don't see how to do it from the scripting page.

Now, if its done in the battle setup page, I could have 3 separate lines of 1 M and 8 S with the Master on the bottom.

Can I have them in the same row if I have space in between them (say 1 communion on the top of the back row and one on the bottom of the back row and one in front of the other 2). If so, how much space is required between them.

LOL, how much more basic can you get than that,

Thanks Guys!!:up:

[Graeme Dice]

Unit ID is set by the order on the script setup screen, with the lowest ID at the top, and the highest ID at the bottom of the list.

Position on the battlefield doesn't affect anything, and all slaves and all masters in a particular battle are part of the same communion.

[GrudgeBringer]

So what your telling me is that ID is from top to bottom of the 27 Mystics. OK, what does the ID have to do with it other than identifying a certain mage.

I was under the impression that the CM HAD to be on the bottom of the communion. So from what you are saying I just script the top 8 mystics as CS and the ninth as CM 10-17 as CS #18 as CM.
19-26 as cs and 27 as CM.

This makes 3 communions? and the game knows to go UPWARD from the CM? say there was only 6 CS in the first one and 8 CS in the next two.

I am just trying to learn to set it up right now, I will learn the intricacies later.

[Frozen Lama]

The biggest part you are missing: there is only 1 communion! you cannot have seperate communions. guys cast spells starting from the top, so if the CM's are on bottom, the slaves can cast before they do, which is good because once the CM's cast, the slave cannot cast in that round

[thejeff]

Where top here is as shown in the Army Setup screen, which is determined by unit ID.
Not position on the battlefield.

In battle, spells are cast in Unit Id order. Communion Slaves can cast if no Communion Master has already cast this round. So, if you're trying to put together a reverse communion (Masters casting path boosters so all the slaves get boosted and can spam spells) make sure the Masters are last.
If you're just trying to boost a couple of Masters to cast big spells, then order doesn't matter.
As several people have said, there is only one communion. All masters share all slaves. This is a good thing.

Mystics are generally good for reverse communions, since you can easily get +1S+2E+2F+1W and 4 reinvig on your slaves.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK, Thanks...I am 1/2 way there.

All slaves are with all masters....THAT was a big revelation.

Now (this may sound stupid) you said that slaves have to cast first because once a master casts slaves can not cast that round. And (this is the part I am having trouble with) Unit ID controls who casts first...How do I know unit ID so I can set my CM so they don't cast first.

Am I really missing something this easy?:doh:

BTW, Thanks for taking the time guys!!

[Frozen Lama]

yeah you're missing something big. hit army setup screen. the guy at the top has the highest unit id. the guy at bottom= lowest

Edit: i think jarkko is right. i have it backwards

[Jarkko]

In the Army setup window (where you script orders for your commanders and regiments) the units at top have the smallest unit ID and those at bottom have the highest unit ID. Hence the phrase "mages on top cast first" :)

[GrudgeBringer]

OK...LOL, seems one answer brings 2 questions. Sorry guys I never played SP, I just jumped in and took my lumps.

So obviously I want the bottom 3 commanders (out of my fictional 3 communions) to be the CM and the top 24 mystics to be the CS.

But it seems I would also want my CM (bottom 3 units in the order) to have the most paths as all the other CS get those paths whether they have them or not. If this is correct you would think there would be a way to move the units around so the 3 on the bottom that you want to make your CM are the ones with the most paths.

Is there a way to do it or is it just luck of the draw?

Thanks...after this answer I think I will have to test and mess around with it some, seems my brain is full ( and no..it doesn't take much jokes!!:p)

Thanks agian Guys!!

[rdonj]

It's all luck of the draw there. Your options are then to not use the some slaves that are placed poorly, use them anyway but without them able to cast, or give the masters some sort of ranged weapon and set them to "fire" commands at the end of your script.

[thejeff]

Luck of the draw. There's no way to reorder them.

Just to be clear, the slaves don't get any new paths or even automatic boosts in the paths they have. All they get is the benefits of path booster spells cast by the Masters. For Mystics, that's PotS, Summon Earth & Phoenix Power. +1 to every path they have, +1 to Earth and Fire if they have them.

So for those purposes all I'd really be concerned about is that one of the masters has Earth and one has Fire.

[GrudgeBringer]

Hmmmm, so if you have 3 really bad units at the bottom you might want to go with 18 slaves instead of 24 and leave those last three out so you have a better communion...correct?

Ok, I was writing this as thejeff was posting...as long as the answer to THIS question is yes, then I think I have a handle (as small as it may be) on communions and can read the guide agian with some knowledge...

[rdonj]

It wouldn't actually make the communion better per say to leave them out, no. They just wouldn't be able to actually contribute anything by casting spells, so you may not consider them necessary to bring along.

[Sombre]

They help distribute the fatigue. Thus they are useful.

[GrudgeBringer]

OOOOK, so because they can't cast AFTER the CM casts, they still count in Fatigue distribution....Now, it is starting to make sense...thanks all (I mean it):up:

[rdonj]

Even if they could cast they'd count for fatigue distribution! That's a feature of all communion slaves. The fatigue is spread around to them that masters would ordinarily gather from casting spells, no matter what unit id they have.

[aaminoff]

Quick question: just to make sure, self-buffs cast by masters affect all the slaves, but NOT the other masters, correct?

I had an idea. Reinvig on communion slaves is nice: you can get 2-4 from boots, summon earthpower, etc. But, suppose you dont have enough slaves, and your masters are casting big fatigueing spells. Fatigue damage turns into hit point damage at 10:1, right? Now, what if the slaves have Personal Regeneration? Its around 20% IIRC, which on a standard human is 2 hit points. That is the equivalent of 20 fatigue! All you need is an N1 master to cast Personal Regen.

[thejeff]

Sounds right to me. You'll pick up afflictions, but that's better than death.
A nature bless & sacred slaves will work too. And stack with Personal Regen.

[Stavis_L]

Hrm...makes me wonder -

1) If you pick up feeblemind affliction, does it drop you out of any communions you may be in at the time?

2) If you have Life After Death/Ankh active, do you remain in the communion after converting to soulless form? I'd think this would be similar to whatever happens for mages w/secondshapes, but I've never tried...

[Baalz]

Interesting idea, but keep in mind that's not gonna kick in until you get to 200 fatigue which is a pretty dangerous place to be. Works as a last ditch thing though.

Re: feeblemind I don't know for sure, but I'd be very surprised if it dropped you out of an existing communion. Pythium's communicants for instance are in a communion with no magic paths so presumably magic paths are not directly tied to communions.

[aaminoff]

Alternatives to armor in protecting your communions:

Suppose you are on defense. You know your opponent is going to Stone Rain (aka Communion Bane) their first turn. How do you protect your communion? Putting armor on your mages has been mentioned, but I suspect most nations can recruit cheap communionable mages faster than they can forge armor for them. My thought would be, have a crystal matrix on a mage at the end of the ID list (the bottom of the commanders listing), and have them cast Stoneskin or Barkskin or something like that the first turn. The slaves above that crystal-matrix-enabled buffer have all cast CSlave already, so they should be part of the communion when the buff gets cast, so they will get it. You still need armor on the other masters though.

Suppose you are on offence, same problem. If all the slaves have slave matrices and a master has a crystal matrix and an amulet of barkskin, will the barkskin get auto-cast before the beginning of combat and affect all the slaves? In fact if I read the discussions of Crystal Shields etc. in the thread above, it sounds like in this case you don't even need to worry about the order of the slaves/masters. The only disadvantage to this plan is that slave matrices are expensive, it may be cheaper just to forge armor.

If the enemy throws Earthquake against your communion, I'm not sure what to do. Same trick, but use Boots of Quickness, to buff Defense? Does that even work that way?

[ano]

I'm almost sure that barkskin amulet will not give barkskin to the whole communion because it is just an effect the item gives and not the "auto-cast" spell. In fact, only items that autocast self-buff spells will affect the whole communion when worn by the master with matrix and all slaves have matrixes too. The two items that come to mind are Crystal Shield and Copper Plate

[rdonj]

On the other hand, there's nothing saying that you can't have a master at the bottom of the list carrying a crystal matrix and cast bark/stone/ironskin/invulnerability the first turn. That would work just as well.

[ano]

That would work just as well.
Not when you're on offense. The only thing I know that CAN protect your mages from Stonerain and such on offense is the Sword of Aurgelmer (and partly the Ankh). And that really makes these items splendid and very important to have. When I have to choose what to forge - Sword of Aurgelmer or Boots of the Planes, I will always choose the first one. And I will prefer the Ankh to the Pain Sickle if I have to choose among them.

[rdonj]

Yeah, that only works for defense. I was saying for defense because he specifically mentioned being on the defensive. On the offensive, options are definitely limited.

[Squirrelloid]

You don't attack with massive communions, you trick your opponent into attacking your massive communion.

(Well, if you're absolutely certain your opponent cannot nail you with RoS or the like on turn 1, by all means do attack with your communion. But attacking blind with a communion is a recipe for disaster!

[Psycho]

Or cast some ghost riders and some such to make the opponent waste gems first. Or teleport a SC, buff him 5 turns and retreat him for the same purpose.

[RadicalTurnip]

I have one question I haven't seen addressed...I've read through all 14 pages, but not since coming up with this question.

The situation was this: it was late-game and I had an enemies pretender and a few angels fly (or maybe teleport?) on top of one of my castles. The pretender was summoning hoards of elementals (I don't remember the spell, but he was F9 W9, and got like 10 Fire elementals in one casting, and then 10 water elementals).

I had 5 vampires (I was Ulm, but these were the 3D 3B ones that everyone can summon, not the 2D 2B Ulmish ones) that I had a perfect idea for, so I gave one of them the blood tome, a RoS, and the blood Chest-piece (the non-unique one) and a runesmasher and 30 slaves, scripted to communion master, Hellbind, Hellbind, Reinvigoration, Hellbind, Spells. I gave the other 4 vamps crystal matricies and scrpited them to summon skelly hoards. I then stuck some faeries (Or whatever the unit you get with Fairy Queen's Court is) and some Air Elementals that one of my Elemental uniques was summoning to keep them occupied while hellbind did its job.

My question is this: does it matter that my slaves were B3 casters for the purpose of increasing his effective level of casting? Could have I just as easily thrown in some of my (now useless, I've finished researching) 1S Sages to do the job just as well (They couldn't summon undead, and they would take slightly more fatigue, I know)?

[Fantomen]

I have one question I haven't seen addressed...I've read through all 14 pages, but not since coming up with this question.

The situation was this: it was late-game and I had an enemies pretender and a few angels fly (or maybe teleport?) on top of one of my castles. The pretender was summoning hoards of elementals (I don't remember the spell, but he was F9 W9, and got like 10 Fire elementals in one casting, and then 10 water elementals).

I had 5 vampires (I was Ulm, but these were the 3D 3B ones that everyone can summon, not the 2D 2B Ulmish ones) that I had a perfect idea for, so I gave one of them the blood tome, a RoS, and the blood Chest-piece (the non-unique one) and a runesmasher and 30 slaves, scripted to communion master, Hellbind, Hellbind, Reinvigoration, Hellbind, Spells. I gave the other 4 vamps crystal matricies and scrpited them to summon skelly hoards. I then stuck some faeries (Or whatever the unit you get with Fairy Queen's Court is) and some Air Elementals that one of my Elemental uniques was summoning to keep them occupied while hellbind did its job.

My question is this: does it matter that my slaves were B3 casters for the purpose of increasing his effective level of casting? Could have I just as easily thrown in some of my (now useless, I've finished researching) 1S Sages to do the job just as well (They couldn't summon undead, and they would take slightly more fatigue, I know)?

The b3 mages don't boost your masters paths more, but they take much less fatigue from blood and death spells cast by the master.

In this case, if you had some 1s mages as well, I'd make two vampire masters and one sage master. The vampire masters cast hellbind, darkness and rejuvenation. The Sage master casts power of the spheres and light of northern stars. Vampire slaves cast first imps and then skellyspam, sage slaves spam paralyze.

[RadicalTurnip]

Yeah, the elementals and the skelly spam killed off 1 angel, I stole 1 angel, 1 angel retreated, and the pretender was gone. From now on, I'll just use my little S1's as slaves ( have about 40 of them). I just like the vampire army because I didn't mind too much if it died.

So far, I seem to be steamrolling the opposition, but I'm thinking of giving each of those S1s a cap (and maybe a coin?) and (maybe?) a matrix, and reverse-communioning with summon earthpower, power of the spheres, maybe body ethereal, luck, invulnerability...etc

All the slaves would be spamming...uh...that 999 damage spell...mind burn? Does this sound reasonable? What's the best/most efficient way to use them?

[Fantomen]

Paralyze is better if you are also casting hellbind since a paralyzed unit is effectively dead if you win and can still be hellbinded.

Soulslay is the other spell to consider, but putting caps on all those mages just for that isn't worth the pearls. Better to reverse communion them with Power of Spheres and light of the northern star.

A matrix on a smith is a good idea, but body ethereal can't be reversed since it isn't a personal buff. You want earthpower, mistform (use an air smith) and invulnerability, that should be enough to protect slaves. Then he can cast a couple thunderstrikes or something. Or he could do resist lightning then wrathful skies.

Buffing up vampire counts in reverse commuion is fun too if you are in friendly dom and have a lot of them, don't forget fire shield and astral shield in that case.