Why Not Digitial Distribution? [Archive]

Jazzepi

February 3rd, 2008, 04:47 PM

sector24 said:
I may be wrong here (and feel perfectly free to tell me so) but I think Shrapnel is very sensitive to piracy, far more so than some companies. Digitial download opens the dark door to the scary place. Some companies believe that the increased sales outweigh the small percentage of pirated copies, but I have never seen any hard numbers on this subject.

I always find this type of argument very silly. Steve Jobs wrote an interesting piece talking about how the vast majority of music sold by CD-labels is sold DRM free, or with DRM that is so easy to circumvent that it might as well not even be there. CD ripping software is easy to use, and convenient.

On the flip side, said Jobs, the DRM you buy from digital downloads is atrocious.

Why then, if the vast majority of your output is unprotected, do you mire a rather small proportion of it in this draconic, DIVX style, DRM? The answer is, you shouldn't be.

So to make the comparison complete, the DRM on Dom 3 (CD-key) is relatively trivial. Pirated copies are out there on the internet, available with CD-keys. This is a reality of modern gaming that applies readily not just to Dom 3, but to all games.

So the idea that releasing it into a format with digital downloading would somehow increase piracy, when the game is already readily available in pirated form, is just silly. The genie is already out of the metaphorical bottle. By making the game available for download on say, Steam, which has decent DRM in place that would not require any more work by the illwinter staff AFAIK, they'd be able to reach a whole new audience.

Personally I'd /love/ to see Dom 3 turn into a block buster multimillion dollar product for the designers of the game. That way they could actually hire some people, and churn out Dom 4 with all sorts of neat goodies. Of which I would be first in line to pre order the gold version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Just to nip this in the bud, I have both a legitimate copy of Dom 2 and 3. I was thinking about taking a photo with my copy of the Dom 3 manual, but I seem to have misplaced my digital camera during the move =\

Jazzepi

Nikolai

February 3rd, 2008, 04:57 PM

Are you serious saying you would rather have Steam DRM'd version of Dominions III than version we have now?

Sorry, but this is nuts! From Steam, I get only games that I cannot get in a box and a CD, and then I play them only on my home desktop. I play Dominions III from two computers day to day, and two others when I move around. Can you even play Steam locked games without Internet connection?

Velusion

February 3rd, 2008, 05:04 PM

S.R. Krol said:
Is an extra seven days of not having it really going to make a difference?

*blinks* Uh....Yes.

In today's instant gratification culture it makes very good sense to offer it online. I almost didn't bother it because I had to wait on it to ship. There are lots of good games out there I can download immediately - it took a lot of will power for me to invest my time in waiting.

This is ESPECIALLY true for a game you also can't find on store shelves.

Jazzepi

February 3rd, 2008, 05:07 PM

Nikolai said:
Are you serious saying you would rather have Steam DRM'd version of Dominions III than version we have now?

Sorry, but this is nuts! From Steam, I get only games that I cannot get in a box and a CD, and then I play them only on my home desktop. I play Dominions III from two computers day to day, and two others when I move around. Can you even play Steam locked games without Internet connection?

No, I'm saying that there is no digitally distributed version of DOM 3 and that Steam would be a potential candidate as a method of distro (NOT that a digitally downloaded version should replace the CD-only hard copy distro). Personally I don't care how they do it, I was just trying to refute the argument that "making something available by digital distribution = more piracy".

Also, I really like Steam. I would never buy a game off Steam I plan to install on multiple computers, but I do not have a laptop that is strong enough to run TF2, or HL2, or Portal, nor would I want to drop the grand or two that would be required to get good FPS.

I bought Orange Box on Steam, and I'm very happy with it. It installs itself, downloads its own updates right away, and I don't have to keep track of a serial # or a DVD.

FYI, Steam does allow you to play games offline as long as they're not in the middle of upgrading.

http://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?s=f77c5bc94b07ba2b1baa970504b56694& ref=3160-AGCB-2555

Jazzepi

Zeldor

February 3rd, 2008, 05:10 PM

Nikolai:

That isn't about you, me and many other people. But for many people it is hard to buy it. They have to pay S&H, wait for it to be shipped etc. And they would prefer to have it now, even if it means no pretty manual. Most people that have it here probably live in US and they can order it from Amazon with free shipping.

Endoperez

February 3rd, 2008, 06:41 PM

Analyzing the introductions thread:

59 from Europe

19 from Scandinavia (didn't count the Dutch in), the most important http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif European sub-group. I didn't count UK people because UK isn't as important as Scandinavia, but there were well over a dozen from there as well.

66 from USA/Canada

9 from somewhere else (5 from Australia, and single ones from from Solomon Island, Mauritius, China, Argentina)

So while the US is the biggest market, at least judging by those who register at this forum Europe is at very nearly the same numbers. It should also be remembered that there are at least French language forums with Dominions discussion, and those who aren't native English speakers tend to favour forums in their own languages (except for Finns, who flock to these forums). I don't remember where I saw them. Probably after I read a Dom3 review published on some French site. It was maybe a year ago or something, but they had games going on back then.

Agrajag

February 3rd, 2008, 07:02 PM

Don't forget that a nice portion of the Dominions III "DRM" is The Manual.
Aside from legalities, The Manual is a very good reason to choose a legal copy of Dominions III over a pirated one.
Selling Dominions III online would require either supplying the manual as a PDF (which would then be instantly pirated and spread through the internet, ruining the current "DRM"), or allowing a download and sending the manual by mail, which would actually be more expensive to do.

Zeldor

February 3rd, 2008, 07:08 PM

Agrajag:

Nah, manual is rather a nice addon. You want to buy Dom3 because of patches and MP. Some bugs looks like created to be fixed with a first patch so pirated versions are broken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

BesucherXia

February 3rd, 2008, 07:23 PM

Agrajag said:
Don't forget that a nice portion of the Dominions III "DRM" is The Manual.
Aside from legalities, The Manual is a very good reason to choose a legal copy of Dominions III over a pirated one.
Selling Dominions III online would require either supplying the manual as a PDF (which would then be instantly pirated and spread through the internet, ruining the current "DRM"), or allowing a download and sending the manual by mail, which would actually be more expensive to do.

Seconded.
In fact I think I will pay for another copy if an updated manuel can be delivered.
Even if the E-Manual is available, I still perfer using paper book, which is much more convenience.

S.R. Krol

February 4th, 2008, 12:33 AM

llamabeast said:
The thing is that you are missing out on the impulse-buying market.

I'm not sure most people consider $55 an impulse purchase. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cerlin

February 4th, 2008, 01:08 AM

One thing I hate about steam, you cannot mod the games. They are in one or two different files and no modding is possible. This would be pretty big downside for Dom3. I know this because I got Medieval 2 Kingdoms on steam, and I cannot use any mods made by the community.
Also the internet access is a huge down side.
I dont think that its a big bonus.

S.R. Krol

February 4th, 2008, 01:16 AM

And just to reiterate something...*if* it was ever sold as a download it would be through us. It seems like every time this subject comes up you have people talking about Steam when there's no reason to put it on Steam since we're already set up.

Jazzepi

February 4th, 2008, 01:28 AM

S.R. Krol said:
And just to reiterate something...*if* it was ever sold as a download it would be through us. It seems like every time this subject comes up you have people talking about Steam when there's no reason to put it on Steam since we're already set up.

Except for the fact that it still isn't offered through digital distribution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

I don't know why you seem so hostile to the idea of digital distribution. If customers are asking for it, the correct response is "we'll get it as soon as we can, if possible" not "our current service, which doesn't even compare to most online retailers, should be good enough for you people".

Jazzepi

S.R. Krol

February 4th, 2008, 02:40 AM

Jazzepi said:
I don't know why you seem so hostile to the idea of digital distribution. If customers are asking for it, the correct response is "we'll get it as soon as we can, if possible" not "our current service, which doesn't even compare to most online retailers, should be good enough for you people".
Jazzepi

Any perceived hostility arises not from the idea, but from the fact that we've been selling the game since September 2006 with no current plans for digital distribution, and even though we continue to say that this keeps coming up.
Could that change in the future? Sure, anything is possible. But as of right now there is only one way to purchase the game, and that's as a physical copy. Why this is such a point of contention for some people, I don't know. What I can tell you though is that the game has sold quite well since release, and continues to sell quite well, as a physical product.

Saulot

February 4th, 2008, 02:56 AM

OT: I'm happy to hear that sales are good... this makes it very likely that Illwinter will make more games.

It isn't just the manual, or the modding, or the patches, or time spent on the forums, it's the whole package, at the forefront of it all being the atmosphere that Illwinter cares about the game.

On more pragmatic terms, is there even a significant market that somehow is 'kept out' because they can only purchase it online? (Most of my purchases occur in physical game stores, but that's hardly less of a hassle than ordering online and then waiting for a delivery.) I know Dominions is great and all, but who can't wait a week or two, for what is, in the end, just a game?

Lingchih

February 4th, 2008, 03:07 AM

Yeah, I'm all for digital distribution. Use the Stardock model. Heck, even just use Stardock (no offense intended Shrapnel). I've bought all my Galciv games and expansions via their digital sales.

Cheezeninja

February 4th, 2008, 04:51 AM

I can understand some hostility on the part of Shrapnel, half the people in this thread are talking about using steam, a completely different distributor. While it would almost certainly sell more copies on steam due to the added exposure, it's pretty darned likely that Shrapnel already has Dominions 3 locked up on the distribution front with binding legal documents and whatnot. Not that I blame them, they've got a business to run and Dominions has a pretty good following for an Indy title.

I've also got a gut feeling that tells me they don't want to go to digital distribution because either they have a large stockpile of printed CD's/Manuals in backstock that are far less likely to get sold that way, or they have their own printing setup which lets them in on an extra sliver of profit through publishing costs. Either way, I think it's obvious that if they felt they could make more money through Digital Distribution right now, that's the route they would go.

On the other hand, the digital distribution topic is going to keep cropping up because, lets face it, Dominions 3 costs a pretty penny for an indy game, and digital distribution is cheaper. Especially since the most commonly given reason for it's high price tag (highest on shrapnel?) is printing costs for the manual.

Personally, I feel far more money could be made by dropping the price tag and selling that many more copies of the game. Especially if you could get some exposure on some gaming websites like Penny-Arcade or TheEscapist or something. But Shrapnel games knows everything I know, and they're the ones successfully running a business so meh, maybe I'm missing something.

Shovah32

February 4th, 2008, 05:21 AM

Cerlin said:
One thing I hate about steam, you cannot mod the games. They are in one or two different files and no modding is possible. This would be pretty big downside for Dom3. I know this because I got Medieval 2 Kingdoms on steam, and I cannot use any mods made by the community.
Also the internet access is a huge down side.
I dont think that its a big bonus.

Really? I have a number of mods on various games I've bought over steam and they seem to work just fine.

DigitalSin

February 4th, 2008, 05:32 AM

Haha, not many games with more mods than Half-Life or Half-Life 2, and they've been Steam games for ages.

llamabeast

February 4th, 2008, 06:16 AM

What we can't understand, S.R.Krol, is what the disadvantages of offering digital distribution are? Okay, so the game has been selling well - excellent, I think we're all very pleased to hear that. But that doesn't mean there isn't potential for it to sell better, and definitely isn't an argument against looking for new ways to increase sales.

The reason most of us have piled into this thread is not to be annoying, but because we love this game, and want it to do better.

Sombre

February 4th, 2008, 06:23 AM

Personally I'm not a fan of digital distribution, but when I bought the game I was living in China and the postage was pretty hefty/incovinient. Especially considering I don't even use the manual.

Jazzepi

February 4th, 2008, 09:27 AM

S.R. Krol said:

Jazzepi said:
I don't know why you seem so hostile to the idea of digital distribution. If customers are asking for it, the correct response is "we'll get it as soon as we can, if possible" not "our current service, which doesn't even compare to most online retailers, should be good enough for you people".
Jazzepi

Any perceived hostility arises not from the idea, but from the fact that we've been selling the game since September 2006 with no current plans for digital distribution, and even though we continue to say that this keeps coming up.
Could that change in the future? Sure, anything is possible. But as of right now there is only one way to purchase the game, and that's as a physical copy. Why this is such a point of contention for some people, I don't know. What I can tell you though is that the game has sold quite well since release, and continues to sell quite well, as a physical product.

I don't understand how you can run a company and say "Ah, well, we're doing good enough, no reason to look into establishing digital distribution, something we do for all our other games, for our flagship product. No, we have no plans for that in the future."

That's just silly. If I were an investor, I would be furious D:

Especially in lieu of actually listening to your customers.

Jazzepi

Agrajag

February 4th, 2008, 02:25 PM

Here's a list of reasons why Digital Distribution is bad.
I don't work for Shrapnel Games, so I'm making all sorts of assumptions.
1) If you want the manual shipped to you after you download the game, it becomes more expensive than just shipping the game and manual, because no costs are saved on production, and bandwidth costs are added (and bandwidth is not cheap.)
2) If you don't want the manual shipped to you, then there will be a sizable amount of players that will play the game without a manual. These might enjoy the game less, since they will have a weaker understanding of it, and they will give the game a bad name.
3) Furthermore, there will now be an excuse for not having a manual, so all the pirates that "lost their copy" won't be immediately spotted on the forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
4) Without a physical manual, the CDKEY is just a number transmitted to you once, with no backups. Suddenly Shrapnel has to deal will all sorts of people that lost their CDKEYS and ask for new ones (expecting one since Shrapnel has to track their sales on their website) and potentially leading to all sorts of CDKEY scammers.
5) They will have to modify their entire CDKEY tracking model. They are no longer guaranteed that each copy of the manual corresponds to one CDKEY, that is printed on it.
They will have to either modify their production line to produce CDKEY free manual but store CDKEYS in some sort of other database or find some model where they print your manual with the code, and send the code to you before the manual is shipped (which creates problems for backorders.).
6) There are probably some costs involved in uploading the game to the digital distribution service, plus increased maintenance.

Some of these reasons are probably wrong.
Reason 5 is poorly explained.
There are probably more reasons that I can't think about.

Either way, if you really must play Dominions III now, just play the demo until the game arrives.

S.R. Krol

February 4th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Many points to address...

@Cheezeninja: "...don't want to go to digital distribution because either they have a large stockpile of printed CD's/Manuals in backstock that are far less likely to get sold that way, or they have their own printing setup"

We've gone through many, many print runs of the game and never have it collecting dust, so that's not an issue. And no, we don't have our own print setup.

"...Dominions 3 costs a pretty penny for an indy game, and digital distribution is cheaper"

Digital distribution is cheaper? No, because it's entirely up to the seller. My favorite example is Distant Guns, which sells for $90 as a download. Or Steel Beasts Pro for $125.

"Especially if you could get some exposure on some gaming websites like Penny-Arcade or TheEscapist or something"

Go to the Dominions 3 product page and click on the "What They're Saying" link. That's just a small smattering of recognition. Not saying it doesn't hurt to get even more exposure, but just pointing out that it's not like the game has been underexposed.

***

@llamabeast "...but because we love this game, and want it to do better."

And what's to say it's not doing perfectly fine as it is? We don't give out sales figures, and you won't find it on the NPD, but how do you know it hasn't sold like fifteen million copies? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Maybe half the population of India plays it. And sure, getting more people to buy it is always desirable, but sometimes I read these threads and get the sense that for whatever reason people think that only a 100 people on the planet are playing Dominions 3, which is far from the case.

***

@Jazzepi: "Especially in lieu of actually listening to your customers."

Come on, don't you mean because you don't get the answer you want?

Let's see, just in this thread Saulot said, " I know Dominions is great and all, but who can't wait a week or two, for what is, in the end, just a game?" So is his view any less valid than yours?

According to your way of thinking if some folks said that Illwinter should hand deliver the game with a basket of cheese and ale, then by God, that's what should happen because someone on a forum requested it. And if we the publisher aren't bending over backwards then we must not be listening to the customer, and we're a bad, bad company.

Why is it so hard to simply accept our answer? How about our customers actually listening to us?

As I've said multiple times, it doesn't mean that in the future it won't change. Heck, tomorrow we could go digital distribution. But today we're not.

llamabeast

February 4th, 2008, 03:24 PM

@llamabeast "...but because we love this game, and want it to do better."

And what's to say it's not doing perfectly fine as it is?

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was "even better". I know this game has done very well, very deservedly. I just meant that if it were possible to extend the audience even further then it would be good to do that.

Let's see, just in this thread Saulot said, " I know Dominions is great and all, but who can't wait a week or two, for what is, in the end, just a game?" So is his view any less valid than yours?

Of course not. But let's assume 8 out of 10 people think like Saulot, and 2 in 10 like Jazzepi (I suspect it is a more even split than that). Well, even then you could gain a 25% sales increase by offering digital distribution! That's huge.

Personally I think a more extensive website with exciting descriptions of races and units, and links to AARs would also make a huge difference. Not many strategy fans could read a Dominions AAR and not want to buy it. Brad Wardell does AARs a lot for GalCivII, and they always go down very well. Here of course, the community can provide them.

Jazzepi

February 4th, 2008, 03:28 PM

S.R. Krol said:
@Jazzepi: "Especially in lieu of actually listening to your customers."

Come on, don't you mean because you don't get the answer you want?

Let's see, just in this thread Saulot said, " I know Dominions is great and all, but who can't wait a week or two, for what is, in the end, just a game?" So is his view any less valid than yours?

According to your way of thinking if some folks said that Illwinter should hand deliver the game with a basket of cheese and ale, then by God, that's what should happen because someone on a forum requested it. And if we the publisher aren't bending over backwards then we must not be listening to the customer, and we're a bad, bad company.

Why is it so hard to simply accept our answer? How about our customers actually listening to us?

As I've said multiple times, it doesn't mean that in the future it won't change. Heck, tomorrow we could go digital distribution. But today we're not.

Please save the hyperbole for someone else. You yourself, in your first post said "Here this goes again with the digital distribution." If you can't tell that a feature, which is becoming a widely accepted aspect of new releases (read direct2drive.com, or Steam, or even your own digital download distro system), is wanted after, by your own admission, it's been requested multiple times, by multiple people, over a long period of time, then it's clear to me that the problem lies with your perception of how many people desire and could use the digital distro, not with the customers' demands for a "basket of cheese and ale" with dominions 3.

Lastly, "Why is it so hard to simply accept our answer? How about our customers actually listening to us?" because you're not paying the customer to come to your website. You work for me, however indirectly, because I, and everyone else who patronizes your distro center, pay your bills. You are in the very end beholden to the person that puts the food on your table. Just as the butcher is beholden to his customers. If they start asking for foie gras, and are willing to pay the price he charges for it, then he should start selling it. This isn't a complicated concept, it's simple economics. In the end, the customer really is, always right.

Jazzepi

Jazzepi

February 4th, 2008, 03:31 PM

llamabeast said:

@llamabeast "...but because we love this game, and want it to do better."

And what's to say it's not doing perfectly fine as it is?

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was "even better". I know this game has done very well, very deservedly. I just meant that if it were possible to extend the audience even further then it would be good to do that.

Let's see, just in this thread Saulot said, " I know Dominions is great and all, but who can't wait a week or two, for what is, in the end, just a game?" So is his view any less valid than yours?

Of course not. But let's assume 8 out of 10 people think like Saulot, and 2 in 10 like Jazzepi (I suspect it is a more even split than that). Well, even then you could gain a 25% sales increase by offering digital distribution! That's huge.

Exactly. And it's not like offering digital distro damages the physical distro for those that want it. Basilisk games, another indy developer, actually it's just one guy, has the perfect setup. You can buy the physical copy, or you can buy the digital copy. In either case, you can download the game right away and start playing.

http://www.basiliskgames.com/order.htm

Jazzepi

Kristoffer O

February 4th, 2008, 03:41 PM

> In the end, the customer really is, always right.

No way, you capitalist swine!!! I'm always right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Actually, there is no law that forces anyone to make money. I'm making enough being a teacher. Just because someone is willing to pay me for making computer games is no reason I should.

I don't have any problem with shrapnel not using downloads. I quite like it. Then there will be less morons playing my game. Since my game is a masterpiece only ace-players should play it. With downloads there is no way to ensure that the potential player is not afflicted by short attention span.

Hmm, I'm loosing focus.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ballbarian

February 4th, 2008, 03:53 PM

KO, I always love your posts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Caduceus

February 4th, 2008, 04:37 PM

Time to lock this one and move on folks while only feelings are hurt.

Don_Seba

February 4th, 2008, 05:08 PM

Oh, Lord, PLEASE, save Ilwinter from "The Customer is always right!" mindset. As a selfish, elitist bastard, I certainly do not want the game "streamlined" to appeal to the masses. I'm happy with the way this series evolves, and if the developers are happy with the profits, why change it?

I have joined this forum only recently, but I have been collecting strategy tips for a while. Can we go back to "Nation X is under/overpowered", and "Strategy Y is abusive" threads? We have the game, and I, for one, have always been in more games than I should be playing. Digital distribution, price cuts... blah.

sector24

February 4th, 2008, 05:35 PM

S.R. Krol said:
Illwinter should hand deliver the game with a basket of cheese and ale

When can we expect this upgrade in service?

johan osterman

February 4th, 2008, 08:11 PM

Jazzepi said:
...
Lastly, "Why is it so hard to simply accept our answer? How about our customers actually listening to us?" because you're not paying the customer to come to your website. You work for me, however indirectly, because I, and everyone else who patronizes your distro center, pay your bills. You are in the very end beholden to the person that puts the food on your table. Just as the butcher is beholden to his customers. If they start asking for foie gras, and are willing to pay the price he charges for it, then he should start selling it. This isn't a complicated concept, it's simple economics. In the end, the customer really is, always right.

Jazzepi

Customer demand is not a coercion. Just because some customer wishes for some service it does not mean that there is an obligation for a service provider to provide that service. In your butcher example, if the butcher think foie de gras is unethical, or that the logistics to carry it would be to costly the butcher is entirely free to not carry it. Apparently shrapnel feels that providing digital download would not be to their advantage, you might second guess their assesment but you will have to concede that they likely posess both more data and experience in making this assesment than you do, obviously they might still be wrong, but shrapnel is acting according to their percieved best interest, trying to maximise their revenue.

llamabeast

February 4th, 2008, 08:13 PM

I have to agree that I'm definitely against commercial pressure coming anywhere near Dominions. The way in which it is written simply because of a love for the game rather than a mind for profit is wonderful.

The only reason I want more people to buy it is because I want to share the fun! I think of those poor people out there, playing crappy strategy games and not even knowing about the revelation that is just around the corner!

Caduceus, Don_Seba (and indeed S.R.Krol), very sorry if I've worded my posts too strongly. Obviously we're all very happy with both the game and the publishing service. I guess I just wanted to highlight the opportunities for increasing sales.

S.R. Krol

February 4th, 2008, 08:44 PM

Llamabeast: No worries, I don't think any of your posts were too strong.

Jazzepi: *sigh* We keep going around in circles. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not going to change our opinion. Agree to disagree.

And I don't even know where you get that butcher example from, but tell you what, go into your local supermarket and demand they start selling Ferraris. Sure, they're a supermarket and not an exotic car dealership, but if a customer wants something and they are willing to pay for it, they should always get it, right? Come on.

***

Funny thing about when these digital distribution threads crop up, it's always from folks who own the game already. Since its release I don't think we've gotten a single email from someone saying, "I will ONLY buy the game if it's available as a digital download." It's such a non-issue for the majority of gamers.

Anyway, it's been fun, and let's hope everyone hasn't gotten too worked up. Now let's get back to putting all this energy into playing the game.

Zeldor

February 4th, 2008, 08:53 PM

S.R. Krol:

Make AI better! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi

February 4th, 2008, 11:32 PM

S.R. Krol said:
Llamabeast: No worries, I don't think any of your posts were too strong.

Jazzepi: *sigh* We keep going around in circles. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not going to change our opinion. Agree to disagree.

And I don't even know where you get that butcher example from, but tell you what, go into your local supermarket and demand they start selling Ferraris. Sure, they're a supermarket and not an exotic car dealership, but if a customer wants something and they are willing to pay for it, they should always get it, right? Come on.

***

Funny thing about when these digital distribution threads crop up, it's always from folks who own the game already. Since its release I don't think we've gotten a single email from someone saying, "I will ONLY buy the game if it's available as a digital download." It's such a non-issue for the majority of gamers.

Anyway, it's been fun, and let's hope everyone hasn't gotten too worked up. Now let's get back to putting all this energy into playing the game.

We do keep going around in circles. I give a reasonable example (IE a butcher providing a different type of meat, since he's, you know, a *butcher*), and you distort it into something ridiculous that is completely off topic, IE the example you just gave. I mean, I know it's convenient for you to throw out these whacked out examples like someone trying to buy a Ferrari from a supermarket, but that's just intellectually dishonest.

Here, let me offer you this so that you have an idea of why you should add digital distro.

If I could buy this game through digital distro with the same DRM currently in place, I would have, and it would have added value to the product while cutting the amount of money it cost you to sell the game, thus increasing your profits.

Jazzepi

Randvek

February 5th, 2008, 12:01 AM

Jazzepi: *sigh* We keep going around in circles. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not going to change our opinion. Agree to disagree.

I'm not sure what circles you're seeing. I'm seeing something like this:
Jazzepi: you should have digital distribution for x, y, and z reasons.
S.R. Krol: we don't want to.

That's not a circle, that's just you plugging your ears saying "la la la la." I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just saying that that answer isn't going to satisfy anybody.

Velusion

February 5th, 2008, 12:08 AM

Jazzepi -

You are wasting your time. They don't really care about getting the game out to more people or increasing sales. The creators said it themselves in this thread (in so many words) and in other places.

While this concept is bizarre to most people (i.e. us) it is their purgatives.

It's the same reasoning that leads to the creators saying they don't want a save game feature and why glaring interface/ai issues exist but we get more expansion nations. It's also the one of the main reason why dominions will never get above the reputation that it is just an eccentric niche game for "hardcore" players.

Cerlin

February 5th, 2008, 12:13 AM

Obviously because its much more fun to make new nations than to fix small, complicated AI problems. :p

And the reason it will be a niche game is because its too much complexity for a vast majority of our last generation to wrap their mind around. This game is a LOT of work. For me, a huge part of the depth and greatness comes from all the amazing unit descriptions. most people dont have such a creative imagination, that would take "work". TV's just feed your entertainment to you. Im not saying this is any of you, but it is a vast majority of the population.

I have no problem being a gaming elitist. :p

Velusion

February 5th, 2008, 12:40 AM

Cerlin said:
Obviously because its much more fun to make new nations than to fix small, complicated AI problems. :p

Of course! But the interface/ai problems are what ultimately detracts from the game - not the lack of playable nations.

Cerlin said:
And the reason it will be a niche game is because its too much complexity for a vast majority of our last generation to wrap their mind around. This game is a LOT of work. For me, a huge part of the depth and greatness comes from all the amazing unit descriptions. most people dont have such a creative imagination, that would take "work". TV's just feed your entertainment to you. Im not saying this is any of you, but it is a vast majority of the population.

I find this argument lacking. There plenty of complex games that are very detailed and complex but still very popular - Civ4, GalCiv2, etc... Dominions is a fine strategy game but it's players are not uber-gamers anymore than Civ4 fans are uber-gamers.

Slobby

February 5th, 2008, 01:02 AM

Kristoffer O said:
I don't have any problem with shrapnel not using downloads. I quite like it. Then there will be less morons playing my game. Since my game is a masterpiece only ace-players should play it. With downloads there is no way to ensure that the potential player is not afflicted by short attention span.

haha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

It took me about a month (tho to be fair half the time was shrapnel the other half another distributer) to get my copy of dom3, and there were plenty of times while waiting that I wished and wished that there was a direct download. Now that I have the game though, I can barely remember the distress caused by only being able to play the demo for a month!

Edi

February 5th, 2008, 03:12 AM

The following is a completely personal general opinion and in no way represents the official Shrapnel Games position. It is also, despite its wording, not a reflection on any single poster here, but a more general rant on customer service and how things tend to be delineated in that field wrt specific services.

About the "Customer is always right" argument: It is usually full of crap. Very often really smelly, liquid variety of crap.

I happen to work in customer service, giving tech support to people when their internet connections go down or they have some other problem and most of them are either pig-ignorant or outright goddamn morons. Yet all of these arseholes who call me to fix their problems presume to tell me how to do my job and insist that "The customer is always right!". That particular line is the surest way to make the customer service person you're saying it to wish that you'd drop dead or at the very least bugger off and not come back. My job is to make sure that the connection from the network to the customer's DSL modem is okay so that he can use broadband. IF the customer calls and whines about his computer being infected with a virus or that he did something and now all his files are deleted or his computer broke down or whatever, I could not care less. I don't give a flying fornication about those problems since I don't get paid to fix them and I especially don't like it when idiots get shirty with me about that. Those services are provided by various other parties, including equipment manufacturers, but the problem is that most of the people demanding that service from us are cheap bastards who don't want to pay for anything.

If someone provides a service under certain terms and at a certain price, that is their right. Just because the customer demands some other kind of service, or additional service on top of that or wants to put conditions on how far he will obey the terms of service after he agrees to use the service on the terms provided does NOT mean that he is entitled to it or that he is right in his demands. If he's not satisfied, he can go elsewhere. Unless the service is unique, in which case he's stuck with it and all the crying in the world won't do him any good.

All of the above presumes that the service we're talking about is being provided as described and competently, which Shrapnel does. The "Customer is always right" whinge only has traction if the service is being provided incompletely compared to description, otherwise fraudulently or if the cutomer is being treated like crap and basically being pissed on. At which point in an otherwise competently run business the people responsible for that are going to have the management falling on them like a ton of bricks.

Endoperez

February 5th, 2008, 03:13 AM

Velusion said:
It's the same reasoning that leads to the creators saying they don't want a save game feature and why glaring interface/ai issues exist but we get more expansion nations. It's also the one of the main reason why dominions will never get above the reputation that it is just an eccentric niche game for "hardcore" players.

It's very hard to define "a glaring interface/ai issue". Even if they are "well-known", they aren't actually discussed here, on the forums where the devs might see it. The only example I could think of right now is the fact that dead nations completely vanish from the score graphs, and while that's annoying it isn't game-breaking. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest doing it in another thread.

AdmiralZhao

February 5th, 2008, 03:41 AM

Wow. It is suddenly clear to me. Edi's years of posts make perfect sense now that I know he works in tech support. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(BTW, I say this as a fan; I love the unit database and have found it absolutely invaluable in MP).

quantum_mechani

February 5th, 2008, 04:47 AM

Velusion said:
Dominions is a fine strategy game but it's players are not uber-gamers anymore than Civ4 fans are uber-gamers.

On the contrary, dominions gamers are a special tenacious breed of gamer adapted to survive in conditions too extreme for less hardy specimens. These remarkable players have adapted to survive and flourish in surroundings filled with such dangers as unintuitive interfaces, undocumented features and inexplicable battle AI behavior. Even ferocious bugs are no deterrent to their industrious efforts, where they have adapted mods to combat these fearsome creatures so feared in more hospitable environments. But despite the best efforts of the tribe, young newbies still fall victim to the numerous hazards, leading to declining numbers in this remarkable culture. Next week- Exploring the Mysteries of the Dwarf Fortress Dwellers: How Do They Tell Where They Put Buildings.

johan osterman

February 5th, 2008, 05:44 AM

Velusion said:
Jazzepi -

You are wasting your time. They don't really care about getting the game out to more people or increasing sales. The creators said it themselves in this thread (in so many words) and in other places.

While this concept is bizarre to most people (i.e. us) it is their purgatives.

It's the same reasoning that leads to the creators saying they don't want a save game feature and why glaring interface/ai issues exist but we get more expansion nations. It's also the one of the main reason why dominions will never get above the reputation that it is just an eccentric niche game for "hardcore" players.

The reasoning that leads to more nations is that JK and Kristoffer make the game for fun. They both have adequate incomes outside illwinter, and at least in Kristoffers case no desire to become a full time developer. The strengths as well as the weaknesses of the game are all a reflection of this. Your post almost make it sound like this is some sort of moral failure. Besides the nations vs AI interface is a red herring, in the illwinter division of labour Kristoffer does the nations, and he doesnt have the skills to fix any AI or interface issues no matter how much he wanted to. So the new nations does not in any significant way impact AI, bugfixes or interface issues.

The above is a different issue from the digital download, which is entirely shrapnels decision, I think you conflate the decisions of shrapnel and illwinter. Kristoffers post was a joke, I assure you he is not personally invested in not providing digital download. Illwinters interest in these matters are to do stuff they enjoy and avoid hassles, with the bonus of making a few bucks out of their hobby.

Edit: I would also like to point out that illwinter do certainly listen to customers, and try to meet their requests within reason.

kasnavada

February 5th, 2008, 07:09 AM

Bah...

This is pathetic, and as said above, not going in circles at all. It's just reasonable people trying to change the opinion of a brick wall. Distribution for dominions 3 is just as the game is. A good concept served by the bare minimum acceptable services.

Dominions has a pretty good concept. As a game, it's good, interesting, because it's different and has many possibilities, including above average modding abilities, factions that do not feel the same, possibily for long game and much much more... However, compared to most other games, it has crappy graphics, unattractive and unintuitive UI, weak AI, little balance between different factions.

Same goes for distribution. Instead of using distribution methods that goes with the current times, it remains backward. Actually, I wonder why smoke signals ain't used ! Even forgetting digital distribution (which space empire does), the distribution services doesn't even offer to use "fast" delivery services like UPS or DHL.

I saw a little above a set of "reasons" for which digital distribution is bad. Let's review them :

1) If you want the manual shipped to you after you download the game, it becomes more expensive than just shipping the game and manual, because no costs are saved on production, and bandwidth costs are added (and bandwidth is not cheap.)

Everything but the conclusion is correct. The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies. Therefore you can't say that digital distribution is by definition bad because it costs more money. Given the fact that dominions pretty much needs internet to be interesting (updates, maps, community, multiplayer) it's rather obvious that many potential buyer look away from the game for this reason.

2) If you don't want the manual shipped to you, then there will be a sizable amount of players that will play the game without a manual. These might enjoy the game less, since they will have a weaker understanding of it, and they will give the game a bad name.

Elitist thinking like this does give the game a far worse name that more newbies will. Furthermore, the manual isn't up to date, and many things are not in the manual, which means that if I follow what you say, people already have a bad understanding of the game. And are already giving it a bad name. Finally : you are assuming that people need the manual ? Have it sent by mail even if you buy it online ! Why should disappear all of a sudden ?

3) Furthermore, there will now be an excuse for not having a manual, so all the pirates that "lost their copy" won't be immediately spotted on the forums

... that was the most ridiculous argument ever. It's not pirates you spot, it's idiots. The ones that want to pirate the game and have half a brain working won't speak about the manual at all. And won't be caught by such a simple thing.

Furthermore, does it also mean that anyone playing the demo, since it doesn't come with the manual, is giving the game a bad name ?

And, in order to end this argument, ever considered the slight possibility that it might actually be true in some cases ? There is a number of reason why it could be : theft, fire, accidental destruction, lost when moving to another place...

4) Without a physical manual, the CDKEY is just a number transmitted to you once, with no backups. Suddenly Shrapnel has to deal will all sorts of people that lost their CDKEYS and ask for new ones (expecting one since Shrapnel has to track their sales on their website) and potentially leading to all sorts of CDKEY scammers.

That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. Why should it be a problem for shrapnel ? Are they dumber than others or something ? Besides cdkey scams already exist since the game can be resold. It's not a problem associated with digital distribution at all !

5) They will have to modify their entire CDKEY tracking model. They are no longer guaranteed that each copy of the manual corresponds to one CDKEY, that is printed on it.
They will have to either modify their production line to produce CDKEY free manual but store CDKEYS in some sort of other database or find some model where they print your manual with the code, and send the code to you before the manual is shipped (which creates problems for backorders.).

Why ? I mean, That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. It's just a different writing of argument four. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.

6) There are probably some costs involved in uploading the game to the digital distribution service, plus increased maintenance.

Putting the same argument twice doesn't make it more true. More costs ? Yes, obviously. More sales ? yes obviously. I'm among those that believe that the new sales (given what the game is) will lead to more profits that the new costs.

That said, I don't really expect things to change to online distribution. However, I won't stand idle when people say that it is inherently bad, because it isn't. It's different, but not better or worse.

However, an option for a faster delivery service than 7 days (or more...) is really needed... 48 hours worldwide is pretty much standard nowadays when it comes to delivering books and dvds. Actually, except for dominions 3, I can't even remember when I last ordered something that takes so long to arrive.

Well, I'm in the process of waiting for the game to arrive. Which may take up to a month. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Let's hope others after me won't have to.

johan osterman

February 5th, 2008, 07:22 AM

kasnavada said:
...

Dominions has a pretty good concept. As a game, it's good, interesting, because it's different and has many possibilities, including above average modding abilities, factions that do not feel the same, possibily for long game and much much more... However, compared to most other games, it has crappy graphics, unattractive and unintuitive UI, weak AI, little balance between different factions.
...

I would argue that dom3 has a decent balance between factions compared to most games, most games with any noticable difference between factions doesn't have that good a balance. Not that dom3 is perfect in this regard, but I think it does ok.

llamabeast

February 5th, 2008, 07:30 AM

But despite the best efforts of the tribe, young newbies still fall victim to the numerous hazards, leading to declining numbers in this remarkable culture.

Actually, I get the impression that the community is still growing nicely, which is impressive so long after release. Newbie games still fill up very quickly (the last one got loads of genuine newbies very fast), and the LlamaServer has no fewer than 20 games on it at the moment (will be 23 in a couple of days), which is really a lot, especially considering it is only one of several servers (and presumably there are any number of people playing MP outside of this forum).

Dedas

February 5th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Yes, the moderate balance is pretty good overall except in a few extreme cases (like MA Ulm). If those nations were brought up to moderate standard I would be a happy camper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Tim Brooks

February 5th, 2008, 08:31 AM

Hi all. I've been following this thread and thought you should hear the official Shrapnel position with regards to Dominions 3. I will attempt to do this while answering some of what has been said in this thread. I also have a few questions.

A good concept served by the bare minimum acceptable services.

Interesting comment. kasnavada, what would make our services more than the minimum acceptable?

Even forgetting digital distribution (which space empire does), the distribution services doesn't even offer to use "fast" delivery services like UPS or DHL.

Do you really want to get into Space Empires, a game that less than 9 months after release was selling for $10? There's a model we don't care to emulate.

We used to use UPS and Fedex. 1 in every 7 international orders had to be reshipped. That is why we don't use them anymore. Now, on average, we have to reship about 6 packages a year.

However, an option for a faster delivery service than 7 days (or more...) is really needed...

Most packages are delivered within 3-7 days. Any longer is a function of the shipment being held in customs. The same thing happened with both UPS and Fedex.

The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies.

This goes to the whole digital distribution model. We have researched this and we use it with a number of our games so we know what is what. The assumption is false when it comes to niche games. A game like Dominions will not sell noticeably more copies. It will just shift a percentage of sales from physical product to digital. And for publishers in niche markets looking to minimize costs this is unacceptable since you will print less physical product and therefore increase costs. Also, distributing a manual in electronic format for a game where the manual is almost a necessity just plays into the pirates hands. Want to know the most searched on term that leads people to Shrapnel Games? 'Dominions 3 Manual'. This accounts for almost one third of all searches that come to our site. We are sort of happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game. Actually that's not true, we are very, very happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game.

Based on the above the only answer would be to go to a totally electronic distribution model. I would love to do this. No inventory hassles, no printers to deal with, fewer employees... the list goes on and on. And one day we may do this, but right now we just don't see it as an option for a game as popular and as niche as Dominions 3. To limit piracy, we would have to go to a system like Steam uses and I personally refuse to do this. I don't think that the person buying the game should be the one penalized for spending their hard earned money in support of our developers.

A thought: Wonder why Steam doesn't sell physical products? I mean, your arguments are we would sell more if we had digital distribution. Wouldn't Steam sell more if they had physical products too? Funny how the digital distribution argument is never turned around.

Want some other interesting facts? We get about 1 support request for every 100 (approximate number) physical games sold. For every download product, we get about 17 support requests for every 100 games sold. Talk about costs. Know what the most expensive single component to a game is? Support. That is why so many of our competitors have such lousy support. So lets do something that increases that cost. In this thread people have talked about getting Dominions cheaper if we had digital distribution. Actually the opposite is true. Digital distributed products cost us more than physically distributed games.

I really want to write more, but have to leave for a meeting now, so I will leave this here and try to get back to it later.

Agrajag

February 5th, 2008, 09:28 AM

First, read the informative post by Tim Brooks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi said:
If I could buy this game through digital distro with the same DRM currently in place, I would have, and it would have added value to the product while cutting the amount of money it cost you to sell the game, thus increasing your profits.

As Tim said, it doesn't really decrease costs, but rather increases them.
Furthermore, if we rule out a PDF manual (it's pretty clear that a PDF manual isn't going to happen.), even if we exclude all of Tim's previous arguments, the product becomes more expensive for Shrapnel - the production costs stay the same, while bandwidth and support costs are added. (support for the actual digital distribution service.)
So, you're wrong.
Actually, ignore the support costs, since Tim mentioned them. But still, bandwidth costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Responses to the following quote are in bold inside the quote.
Also, thanks for all the sarcasm kasnavada, it really makes your post enjoyable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

kasnavada said:

1) If you want the manual shipped to you after you download the game, it becomes more expensive than just shipping the game and manual, because no costs are saved on production, and bandwidth costs are added (and bandwidth is not cheap.)

Everything but the conclusion is correct. The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies.
Yes, but how many of those more expensive sells are actually people that would have bought a physical copy?
We don't have any figures on how many extra sales Dominions would get, and Tim seems to indicate that he has figures to show that a digital distribution will not generate enough extra sales to generate a profit.
And like the tongue-in-cheek example from before, adding cheese and wine with each copy would also increase sales (anyone who would buy the game would still buy it, and more purchases will be generated from people that decide that the extra cheese and wine make the deal desirable enough), but it won't generate extra profit because it will be much more expensive to produce each copy, and the cheese and wine would probably not contribute enough new sells.

2) If you don't want the manual shipped to you, then there will be a sizable amount of players that will play the game without a manual. These might enjoy the game less, since they will have a weaker understanding of it, and they will give the game a bad name.

Elitist thinking like this does give the game a far worse name that more newbies will. Furthermore, the manual isn't up to date, and many things are not in the manual, which means that if I follow what you say, people already have a bad understanding of the game. And are already giving it a bad name. Finally : you are assuming that people need the manual ? Have it sent by mail even if you buy it online ! Why should disappear all of a sudden ?
read more carefuly, point 1 assumes a manual will be shipped, point 2 does not.
And of course the effect I mentioned isn't that significant but it's there, thanks to the wonderful magic of statistics

3) Furthermore, there will now be an excuse for not having a manual, so all the pirates that "lost their copy" won't be immediately spotted on the forums

... that was the most ridiculous argument ever. It's not pirates you spot, it's idiots. The ones that want to pirate the game and have half a brain working won't speak about the manual at all. And won't be caught by such a simple thing.
You should really spend more time at the forums then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Furthermore, does it also mean that anyone playing the demo, since it doesn't come with the manual, is giving the game a bad name ?
There's a reason it's called a demo.

And, in order to end this argument, ever considered the slight possibility that it might actually be true in some cases ? There is a number of reason why it could be : theft, fire, accidental destruction, lost when moving to another place...
Sure I have, those are common excuses for pirates, so I'm aware of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But... Your manual being burned is the same as your car being stolen - tough luck as they say.

4) Without a physical manual, the CDKEY is just a number transmitted to you once, with no backups. Suddenly Shrapnel has to deal will all sorts of people that lost their CDKEYS and ask for new ones (expecting one since Shrapnel has to track their sales on their website) and potentially leading to all sorts of CDKEY scammers.

That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. Why should it be a problem for shrapnel ? Are they dumber than others or something ? Besides cdkey scams already exist since the game can be resold. It's not a problem associated with digital distribution at all !
They deal with the problem, and dealing with the problem costs them money.

5) They will have to modify their entire CDKEY tracking model. They are no longer guaranteed that each copy of the manual corresponds to one CDKEY, that is printed on it.
They will have to either modify their production line to produce CDKEY free manual but store CDKEYS in some sort of other database or find some model where they print your manual with the code, and send the code to you before the manual is shipped (which creates problems for backorders.).

Why ? I mean, That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. It's just a different writing of argument four. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.
The problem is in switching from one model to the next. It's quite obvious that there are already existing models for Digital Distribution, and there are models for physical only distribution, but they are not the same, so switching from one model to the other will cost money. (And might actually be quite expensive)

6) There are probably some costs involved in uploading the game to the digital distribution service, plus increased maintenance.

Putting the same argument twice doesn't make it more true. More costs ? Yes, obviously. More sales ? yes obviously. I'm among those that believe that the new sales (given what the game is) will lead to more profits that the new costs.
That is your belief. And according to Tim you are probably wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And the costs for adding the product to the digital distribution service are not the same as the costs for distributing it over the digital distribution service, which is what I talked about in a previous point, so these are not identical points.

That said, I don't really expect things to change to online distribution. However, I won't stand idle when people say that it is inherently bad, because it isn't. It's different, but not better or worse.
[b]It's better or worse for a specific product.

Well, I'm in the process of waiting for the game to arrive. Which may take up to a month.
It may take up to ten million years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

kasnavada

February 5th, 2008, 11:40 AM

Woah, I certainly got more answers than I expected.

Not that I have much more to add anyway, but I'll answer what people ask.

To Tim Brooks :
I said in my post, the bare minimum is (at least for me) what dominions 3 lacks compared to other games in the same category... graphics, UI, AI, shipping possibilities... well AI is a special matter since in most games people think that the AI is weak anyway. And given all possibilities that this particular game proposes it's no wonder that it's easy to outhink it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

I didn't say anything about the music, for example, because it's great. That makes me think that you can do it for the other things that dominions 3 offers.

Well, that means I'll have to comment on your opinion of dominions 3. You say, a niche game. I say : why should it be one ? But comments on this thread (including your answers) makes me believe that dominions 3 wants to remain a niche game, played by a few, known by a few.

I can't help but think : if that or that was better, it might attract more players to try and play the game. It might also be easier to introduce that games to my friends to play with them. It might attract more people, therefore more competition, making the game harder.

That said, I'm nothing but a player. One among many. Some people like the fact that it is a niche game and enjoy playing less known games, because of many personal reasons. And it's not my place to say what the game should be. However, what I can say is what I think could make the game better. And that's what I did.

Do you really want to get into Space Empires, a game that less than 9 months after release was selling for $10? There's a model we don't care to immolate.

That's not what I said, nor want. Actually, I've no complaints about the price. I actually think that some would pay more to get the game faster. What I wanted to say is that I as a customer and probably many others would like the possibility of having to choose how fast the content you sale is shipped.

For example : either ship it with "default" mail service and it comes at reduced price but longer waiting time, or use another one and get it delivered faster (of course the price is higher).

Well, it will make your job less easy and is a selfish demand from some in the playerbase. As justly said above by others, you don't have to obey because I pay for it. I merely suggest it, and I do think it's needed. If you don't, however... well. You certainly have good reasons for it. Reasons that, as a player, I can't know. However, no one's harmed by asking.

(online distribution...)

As for your experience on online distribution, you're saying that it will not sale better, I've got no choice but to believe it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

For your comments on Steam, actually, I'm pretty sure people have been asking for print-outs of the game manuals and live cds and other stuff like this. However, they can answer "we don't do this because so and so company does". For example : for space empire, why should they (steam) sell a hardcopy of the game when you can go to your local game store and buy it ? Or when gamersfront offers the game ? The situation is not the same as Dominions 3 because there are other ways to buy the same product.

Finally, to Agrajag :
About the content of the quotes :
Well, Tim Brooks' post summed it nicely.

About the manual and anti-pirate policy.
I did spend time on the forum and did find the 'I lost my manual' thread. Actually, I'm rather happy I did, because it showed me 2 things : the manual actually is useful (unlike most other games out here), and made me laugh a bit when 1 or 2 pages back the same question was answered because it had no 'I lost my manual' excuse in it.

Agrajag

February 5th, 2008, 11:56 AM

Finally, to Agrajag :
About the content of the quotes :
Well, Tim Brooks' post summed it nicely.

I agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But I had to respond in spite of Tim's post because I am a follower of the great god Argumemnon and according to our holy Argumentative Codex we are not allowed to "drop" an argument http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Caduceus

February 5th, 2008, 12:07 PM

Unfortunately, Argumemnon is a niche god without digital distribution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

llamabeast

February 5th, 2008, 12:37 PM

Tim;

Thanks for that answer, that was very satisfactory and thoughtful answer. It's good to see that you've considered the issues carefully and it looks now as if you've taken very sensible decisions.

Also, I just went to dominions3.com to remind myself of how awful it is - and it's been revamped! Hurrah! I don't know how long ago it changed, but when I last looked at it (probably a long time ago to be fair) it was just a "coming soon" page. Now it looks really nice and very professional. The screenshots are well chosen too.

If I may suggest adding another couple of links to the website: a link called "reviews" pointing at the "What they're saying" page on Shrapnel would be an excellent idea (since those reviews are so glowing). Also I'd suggest giving detailed guides and lots of pictures for a couple of races (the guides are pretty much ready in the community and I'm sure people would be happy to let you use them) with little thumbnails for all the other races, showing the amazing range of fascinating things available in the game. The people who like games like Dominions absolutely love reading about such details online, and it would really encourage sales I think. Certainly it would work on me.

Finally a link to a couple of AARs would be good. At the moment there are few high quality AARs around. However, if you said here that you wanted a couple, I'm sure we'd all start beavering away and you could choose the best two and put them up. Seriously, AARs are amazing sales tools, it's very hard to read one for a good game without salivating.

Don_Seba

February 5th, 2008, 01:41 PM

A few comments about Dominions III "weaknesses"...

User Interface - I got used to it. I cannot quite remember if anything ever bothered me... Maybe the left vs right click to move.

AI - Better AI would be great. Not going to happen. What I, as a programmer, would love happening is for Dominions to provide a way for us to build our own AIs and have them fight. It will be way too processor intensive for anything but AI duels, but I would still love it.

Graphics - I have no problem with them. Two sprites, clean and simple. Better camera control, zoom and replay mechanisms would be nice.

Balance - Good considering the variety. With a few glaring problems - wimpy MA Ulm, currently crippled LA Vanheim...

Service - What's wrong with the service?

Shipping - I got both my copies (2 & 3) within a week. I had the demo to keep me busy. I loved it when I could finally check Pythium, which had been impressing me in the demo.

llamabeast

February 5th, 2008, 02:24 PM

Don_Seba: What do you mean about camera control? Do you know PgUp, PgDn and the 4 cursor keys allow you to move it in all 6 directions (plus f for fast forward and n for 'next round')?

The graphics for the sprites are actually largely really very good indeed, once you get used to them being 2D sprites.

I didn't know there was anything wrong with LA Vanheim either.

sector24

February 5th, 2008, 03:03 PM

Tim Brooks: We live like 10 miles from one another, can I buy you a beer sometime? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

On a marginally related note, if someone were to compile User Interface improvements would there be any chance of seeing them get considered? Three examples off the top of my head:

1) Commanders should be able to dump all their gems into a lab without using hotkeys or clicking 30 times.
2) Item Transfer Screen: Laboratory should be at the top of the list instead of the bottom. (Requested several times I think)
3) Nation Overview (F1): Cannot sort anything on this screen. Ideal improvement would be for the top row with the column titles to be "locked" and persist when you scroll up and down, and clicking on the title of a column would sort by that column, first, ascending then descending.

Someone also suggested player scores persisting on the score graphs. Very good suggestion. I'm sure every player has 1 or 2 "nitpicks" about the interface that when put together would really serve to improve the game on a significant level. But it's kind of a wasted effort if the current interface is set in stone.

Jazzepi

February 5th, 2008, 03:08 PM

Tim, thank you for responding to the points presented in a meaningful, accurate way. I have two points.

1. I think you overstate the manual as a form of DRM. People get help on the forums all the time. There's a path boosting guide there as well. In game there is a description for every spell that is mostly accurate, every unit's stats can be gotten simply by looking at them. That is to say that not having the manual makes the game more difficult to play, but for someone pirating the game there are plenty of other resources that supplement, replace, and otherwise correct the manual that are readily available on these forums and the dom3 wiki, that you really don't even need the manual.

Actually, your best form of DRM is banning cd-keys from playing online by releasing updates. DOM3 single player leaves a lot to be desired from the AI.

2. You said that the cost of producing the manuals would go up if you starting making PDFs because the size of your manual runs would go down since people would switch over to digital distributions and this would negate any savings from not having to press + print + mail the physical media. Maybe I'm being simple here, but it seems like to me all you would have to do is keep the print run at the same size, the trade off being that you'd have a higher inventory for a longer period of time.

Jazzepi

Endoperez

February 5th, 2008, 03:31 PM

sector24 said:
On a marginally related note, if someone were to compile User Interface improvements would there be any chance of seeing them get considered?

It's Illwinter's choice what they implement, but the chance of them implementing what you want is bigger if they know what you want. If there was a good list, with all the points in the first post and everything written well AND CATEGORIZED by importance, it would be very useful for Johan. Without categorizing, it's just a wishlist thread, which can offer hints but doesn't help in getting the important stuff before "important". Telling the difference between those two is quite hard, though. As an example, the score graphs persisting is trivial for some (who disable scoregraphs), and very important for others (who "score" themselves against other nations).

S.R. Krol

February 5th, 2008, 03:55 PM

Tim Brooks said:
And one day we may do this, but right now we just don't see it as an option for a game as popular and as niche as Dominions 3.

Jazzepi, while the Shrapnel cleaning lady hasn't chimed in yet to tell you this same point, everyone else has. How about accepting it and moving on?

Jazzepi

February 5th, 2008, 04:07 PM

S.R. Krol said:

Tim Brooks said:
And one day we may do this, but right now we just don't see it as an option for a game as popular and as niche as Dominions 3.

Jazzepi, while the Shrapnel cleaning lady hasn't chimed in yet to tell you this same point, everyone else has. How about accepting it and moving on?

I guess you're not struck by the same bewilderment as I am that you're posting in a thread telling someone else to move on. I think this is a case of following your own advice.

Jazzepi

Zeldor

February 5th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Tim Brooks:

You can download manual in pdf.

Velusion

February 6th, 2008, 12:55 AM

Tim and Shrapnel,

Thanks for the post... I appreciate sharing your reasoning here concerning digital distribution. I do think your argument sounds reasonable. I'm not sure I'm totally swayed (mostly about the piracy thing) but you make a lot of sense and have obviously thought it out.

Also thanks for not locking this thread and allowing the discussion!

To Illwinter,
My apologies if my post sounded rather harsh - I just really like the game and just think it would be greatly served by AI and (especially) UI improvements.

Tim Brooks

February 6th, 2008, 07:45 AM

I'm back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Sorry it has taken me so long to return...

Well, that means I'll have to comment on your opinion of dominions 3. You say, a niche game. I say : why should it be one ? But comments on this thread (including your answers) makes me believe that dominions 3 wants to remain a niche game, played by a few, known by a few.

Why should it be a niche game? It shouldn't be! I agree totally. But wanting it not to be doesn't make it so. We could make it more user friendly, give less options, improve the graphics over gameplay... and on and on. It would be a smash hit probably, but it wouldn't be Dominions. It would be a totally different game.

Sometimes I think people believe that this game isn't well known. Would you believe we have had millions of downloads of the demo? But it remains a game that is niche, based on sales. You can't change that by wishing it so. You can't change that by any means other than changing the game. There is a reason the major publishers don't have a Dominions clone. It isn't a major market. Now that doesn't mean it hasn't sold well. It has for a niche game. Can it sell better? I believe that it can. Shrapnel is pretty darn good at what we do. But don't beleive for a minute that we think we are perfect. We are always working to be better. But you have to do it smartly if you want to remain in business.

However, what I can say is what I think could make the game better. And that's what I did.

And we want you to. The developers want you to. Please don't stop. And continue to question the way we do business. We really do read these posts and we consider what is said here.

either ship it with "default" mail service and it comes at reduced price but longer waiting time, or use another one and get it delivered faster (of course the price is higher)

We used to do this. But it wasn't cost effective. UPS, Fedex, etc. charge you monthly fees for their services. They just weren't used enough to keep paying those fees.

Thanks for that answer, that was very satisfactory and thoughtful answer. It's good to see that you've considered the issues carefully and it looks now as if you've taken very sensible decisions.

Thank you, llamabeast!

If I may suggest adding another couple of links to the website: a link called "reviews" pointing at the "What they're saying" page on Shrapnel would be an excellent idea (since those reviews are so glowing). Also I'd suggest giving detailed guides and lots of pictures for a couple of races (the guides are pretty much ready in the community and I'm sure people would be happy to let you use them) with little thumbnails for all the other races, showing the amazing range of fascinating things available in the game.

We can do this. We need the community to help. The AARs are a great ides and we are in the process of a site redesign that will encompass alot of this. In the meantime, I will have Annette set up a thread to post anything that you (the community) think will help us tell the Dominions 3 story better.

We live like 10 miles from one another, can I buy you a beer sometime?

Would love to, sector24! I'll buy the second round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/beerglass.gif PM me, when you can.

Tim, thank you for responding to the points presented in a meaningful, accurate way.

Your welcome. Thanks for 'listening'.

Also thanks for not locking this thread and allowing the discussion!

We wouldn't dream of doing this, Velusion. We do listen and consider your ideas. And when someone brings something up like this, it sometimes reminds us to revisit things. We are always looking for ways to be better at what we do and this whole internet and gaming is a constantly changing animal that requires constant attention. Your ideas are always welcome at Shrapnel Games.

Saxon

February 6th, 2008, 12:16 PM

Scott,

You seemed to be asking if anyone had not bought the game because it was not digital download. I may be the closest you will get.

Living in Kenya, our mail service can be unreliable. As such, I had the game shipped to my parents in Canada and then picked it up when I visited on vacation. If I was not sure about the game, I would not have bothered. However, I had played the first two, checked out the demo and figured it was worth the money.

Obviously, I am a weird and tiny bit of the market, but some folks really don�t like, or can�t use, the mail. Tim�s points look pretty good and address the rest of the market.

Another point you asked about, is $55 impulse buy money for anyone? Well, yes, it is. Look at the credit card problems lots of folks have, people do some odd things with their cash. Many people see that amount in the impulse range. The other group to look at is the professionals. Without trying to sound like a rich prat, I can say that $55 is not a big deal for me anymore. If I want to take my wife to dinner, I will drop at least that much and not blink. A trip out for the weekend will burn at least that much gas, but I don�t factor it in my decision making. A night at a bar, I shudder to think how much that would cost these days if I got drunk. $55 used to be a lot for me, but all those years in university paid off.

In other words, you might want to stretch your ideas on the impulse buy idea. Computer games are entertainment, which is pretty much about satisfying impulses and emotions.

Baalz

February 6th, 2008, 05:37 PM

It'd be pretty cool to set up a MP game specifically that everyone signed up to post AARs to. Perpetuality had a smattering of this, and a couple players regularly post short in character reports but it'd be cool to have everyone commit to doing it the whole way through then maybe do a little editing, splicing, and narration to put it all together into a overall story. I see this often enough, it shouldn't be too hard to fill up a game like this.

thejeff

February 6th, 2008, 05:46 PM

Yeah, resurrect the old Dom II Yarnspinners (I think that was the name) games!

I couldn't write for them, but I loved reading them.

djo

February 6th, 2008, 06:32 PM

Yarnspinner II was a blast, but wow, it's hard to keep up the writing! Alas, most of the prolific authors from those games did not move on to Dominions 3.

You've seen that some people do post/email in character (Pasha's games are prone to it, and I see you are in the next one). Every so often, someone tries to get a role-playing-heavy game going, but so far it hasn't taken off in Dom 3.

I wonder if Baalz meant to post his comment in another thread?

Motomouse

February 8th, 2008, 09:23 PM

Ahh, you finally got me!

I was waiting till now for a digital download option. After reading this thread ...

(and playing along the demo for a while, third tier by the way, first and second attempt I went for graphics over gameplay, to no avail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

... finally I succumb! I ordered per mail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif, ugh!

Regards
Mhttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.giftomouse

Innocence

May 25th, 2008, 05:24 AM

Saxon said:In other words, you might want to stretch your ideas on the impulse buy idea. Computer games are entertainment, which is pretty much about satisfying impulses and emotions.

Excatly! When you get hooked on game, you have to be able to buy, download, register and play the full version instantly. Nothing sexy about searching hours for a shop, paying overprice and then having to wait several weeks for it to arrive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Last game I bought on impulse was Mount & Blade, which is a small indie game developer in Turkey (IIRC). Game is digital distribution only (they use the esellerate.net webshop).

As for copy-protection, I understand Dom3 uses a similar scheme as Stars! did: The game might seem to accept homemade serials, but into the game strange random "accidents" start to happen (planets rebel, whole fleets disappear etc.) in the end ruining the game for the pirate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

So while someone could easily make a serial-generator which *seems* to work, the only way you will know for sure is to play 100+ games and see if anything unsual happens. NO hacker is willing to spend that much time checking! Top that off with regular gameupdates (where the protection scheme is secretly slighty altered), and noone will bother.

This strong protection system also makes the whole fear of making a PDF manual a moot point. What good is the manual if you can't play the game because you can't get a valid serial http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Alas, at least as far as Dom3 goes, ShrapnelGames is in the perfect position to offer it as download+manual option. Actually it's something that Illwinter could do themselves if they hadn't signed up with ShrapnelGames to handle their distribution.

I sometimes get the feeling that distributors forget they work for and get paid by the developers and as such have a responsibility to promote and make available their product in the best way possible. It's the same bond which exists between music artist and the record labels, and many artists are currently realizing that they no longer live at the mercy of their labels - it's the other way around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

MaxWilson

May 25th, 2008, 06:11 AM

I have mixed feelings about the whole "impulse buy" thing. I was exposed to Dominions via a Usenet thread about Master of Magic where a poster (probably Gandalf Parker) recommended Dominions 2 as a worthy successor. I downloaded the demo, read the manual, thought it was interesting, started the demo, and ran into a bug. (When I Alt-Tabbed out to look at the demo manual again, I came back and couldn't see any commander icons. I didn't realize it was caused by Alt-Tab, so I thought Dominions 2 just wouldn't run on my system.) I quit.

A couple of years later, I ran across Dominions 3 again. I don't remember why, but I tried again and this time this demo worked for me. I really liked the game. I hesitated when I saw that the game was only available through mail-order, because there's always the danger with an impulse purchase that, if you have to wait a couple of weeks to get it, the impulse will have waned by the time you receive it and you won't get any enjoyment out of it at all. Still, I had the demo and could play that in the meantime, so ultimately I decided to buy the game. In my case I think I definitely would not have bought the game if the demo had not been available electronically, but the demo did its job and sold me despite the mail-order wait.

I don't know if that's useful data, but there it is. I suspect Shrapnel is choosing a pretty good middle ground, from a business perspective.

-Max

Edi

May 25th, 2008, 06:47 AM

Innocence, suffice it to say that this issue has been discussed enough times already. You don't actually have any statistical evidence to back your claims up and you do not know all the details on how this goes with Dominions 3. Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format. End of story.

The thing is that demos are precisely for checking out whether one likes a game and if a demo is good, usually the game is worth waiting for even if it takes a week or two.

Innocence

May 25th, 2008, 08:11 AM

Edi said:Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The hole in part of the logic is the lack of trust in the Dom3 copy protection, which is excellent. And when you don't have to worry about piracy, the rest of the why-not-to arguments are invalid, since they ultimately build on the first dogma that releasing the manual in digital form will make piracy ruin this game (which might be true if it wasn't for the protection build in by Illwinter).

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format

And "640Kb of RAM is enough for everyone" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've read those statements before, repeating them wont make them any more right.

But I agree that trying to argue with logic here seems futile - it probably is, as you say, "end of story" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Clearly, if other small/one man companies do this successfully it's obvious that this will never work for ShrapnelGames /threads/images/Graemlins/icon02.gif

Even in our small "group", half the people interrested say they "wont buy it right now" (which pretty much means they'll never get their act together and order it) because of how difficult the game is to come by. And if your friends wont play the game, there goes the chance for a nice relaxed multiplayer experience, meaning you'll feel tempted to skip the game yourself. I recon the picture is much the same in the rest of the world.

For what it's worth though, yes I'll likely end up biting the bullet and buy the game on mail-order just like most people here - but under protest, futile as it may be /threads/images/Graemlins/VikingHelm.gif

On an ironic sidenote: Illwinter is a Swedish Development team. "Sweden" as in "Europe", "Sweden" as in "two hours of ferry transport from where I live" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

MaxWilson

May 25th, 2008, 08:28 AM

Innocence said:

Edi said:Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The hole in part of the logic is the lack of trust in the Dom3 copy protection, which is excellent. And when you don't have to worry about piracy, the rest of the why-not-to arguments are invalid, since they ultimately build on the first dogma that releasing the manual in digital form will make piracy ruin this game (which might be true if it wasn't for the protection build in by Illwinter).

I'd be very interested to know what data you base this conclusion on, that piracy isn't an issue for Dominions3 because the copy protection is so good. I'm sympathetic to the anti-copy protection camp (my favorite e-book publisher is Baen because they make e-books totally hassle-free, to the point of simply distributing books as .html files in a .zip) but I'm also conscious that whether this is a smart business decision depends very much upon your product and market. What makes you think the built-in copy protection is a better deterrent than the lack of a manual?

-Max

Zeldor

May 25th, 2008, 08:56 AM

Dom3 copy protection is good enough only because it is not popular game, so not huge interest in hacker community.

Most bad selling games are due to well... bad design, not piracy. And most anti-piracy things hit people that buy the game, not hackers. I think that most anti-piracy things [except for normal cdkey] decrease sales.

Dominions targets rather small community. Most people that try it get addicted and buy it. There are of course pirated copies of dom3, but mostly used by people instead of demo or by those that have problems buying it. And digital distribution could help those people. But there may be not enough of them to put all that into motion.

Innocence

May 25th, 2008, 12:57 PM

MaxWilson said:What makes you think the built-in copy protection is a better deterrent than the lack of a manual?

First of all, the lack of a manual can be overcome by dedication. The tutorial is in the demo, lots of info on forums and wikis, and the in-game info is very good. I was up playing the demo in a few days/tried, and while there are some limitations, I doubt the full game is very different. The only way to *really* learn a game is, after all, by playing it. Once that's done, you don't really need the manual.

The brilliance of the Dom3 copy-protection is that it gives false positives - everything seems ok but really isn't. You might be in the middel of an exciting game, one you have invested countless of hours into, and suddently things start to go wrong. Small at first, then more and more severe, until your game is ruined and all your time is in effect wasted. It's like watching an exciting movie and then discover the last 10 minutes are missing (no actually it's much worse than that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

In essense, *time* is the issue. Time wasted for the player, and time wasted for the hacker programming serial-generatores, which are close to impossible to get right, since the checks are many, spread out through the game, and don't reveal themselves until it's too late.

While a hacker might want to spend a few hours writing a serial-generator, there's no way in Ermor neither he nor anyone else will be willing to spend 100+ hours testing if every serial provided will pass every check, fully knowing that even if they by chance find a working one they'll be in trouble come the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And if you simply don't patch you can wave goodbye to multiplayer - which after all is where these games really shine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So the equation is like this: Would you rather spend $50 one time to get a fully working, guaranteed problem-free gaming experience (not to mention a clean conscience), or would you rather try the freeride, filled with frustrating experinces like abandoned games and wasted precious sparetime (and knowing you haven't contributed a dime to make this rare genre live on)? I believe the answer is obvious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Like I said all this isn't new - it's the way they did it with Stars! (shareware) and it was very successfull in that department too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edi

May 25th, 2008, 07:02 PM

You're still claiming things without a single shred of evidence. Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window. There are some similarities, but that is all they are.

This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

Wokeye

May 26th, 2008, 12:12 AM

I already have bought the game, but would have bought it digitally if that was possible. Maybe digital distribution is not right for Dom3 at the moment, as suggested - but it is the 'way of the future'. Maybe Dom4?

As for piracy of PC games, read:
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/post.aspx?postid=303512
Sums it up nicely, I think.

Innocence

May 27th, 2008, 04:09 PM

Edi said:Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window.

They both use a similar and very effective copy protection scheme. If that's not a similarity then I don't know what it takes. Want proof of effectiveness, go search for other discussions on the Stars! copy protection.

This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

Excuse me, but do you own this forum? You seem very eager to shut down this discussion on the general principle that you find it tedious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've stated a new important issue about this case, and yes, you're probably right that it wont change their descision, but please let other people have their say before you cry out, demanding the discussion be shut down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, so you'll get it your way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

JimMorrison

May 27th, 2008, 04:21 PM

Edi is a hard man, and these forums need discipline, something their mother never gave them. >.>

But seriously, I think that his point ultimately is that it doesn't matter what semi or totally vaid points you bring up - the distribution method of the game will not change because of your arguments.

fictionfan

May 27th, 2008, 11:11 PM

That was great I have not laughed so hard in a long time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Edi

May 28th, 2008, 03:17 AM

Innocence said:

Edi said:
Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window.

They both use a similar and very effective copy protection scheme. If that's not a similarity then I don't know what it takes.

The point apparently sailed right over your head. Similar != same. Your argument assumes that the copy protection for both Stars! and Dominions 3 is the same, when it is only similar, NOT the same. So your argument does not apply directly, yet you're still advancing it as if it did. This is what I and several other people have been trying to explain to you for the past several posts.

Innocence said:
Want proof of effectiveness, go search for other discussions on the Stars! copy protection.

I'll take your word for it that the Stars! copy protection is as effective as you say. It doesn't matter a jot, because it is simply not relevant for this discussion.

Innocence said:

Edi said:
This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

Excuse me, but do you own this forum? You seem very eager to shut down this discussion on the general principle that you find it tedious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No, I don't own the forum, Shrapnel Games does. The reason I was contemplating shutting this discussion down because it's turning out to be a rehash of an issue that has been discussed and resolved already in the past. And not just once, if my memory serves me correctly.

Innocence said:
I've stated a new important issue about this case, and yes, you're probably right that it wont change their descision, but please let other people have their say before you cry out, demanding the discussion be shut down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, so you'll get it your way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The problem with what you have been saying is not that there is something new, but that there is not and these considerations have already been taken into account and factored into the decision about how to distribute Dominions 3. That's why the decision is not going to change. I believe Tim Brooks also explained this in prior posts.

The thing is that the people on the forums do not have access to all the information that goes into making these decisions. I'm not an employee of Shrapnel or Illwinter, but even so I have a little bit more access than the average forum user due to being a forum moderator and the bug list manager. I have a slightly better picture due to that privileged information, though nowhere near complete. But with the information I do have, taken together with what Tim has said in the past, I feel I can safely say the Shrapnel argument is persuasive.

The problem with this approach is of course that since I cannot divulge what has not been said in public, I can only offer you my word on this issue. Whether you choose to trust that is up to you. I hope that I have generally been forthright enough that my word is sufficient for most people here.

Lingchih

May 28th, 2008, 04:29 AM

I have resolved my problems with the game distribution. I think it should stay as it is. After all, why bother with a slight delay in receiving a game that you will probably play for 2-3 years. The delay in receiving it is immaterial, and helps the developers weed out piracy.

Gandalf Parker

November 25th, 2008, 10:41 PM

There are also two possible incentives.

A) Shrapnel has made a request for AARs to all of their games. So it might serve a larger purpose if they mention it in a publicity post someplace.

B) I have always said that it would sell. A person can create a free CafePress shop, upload an AAR, publish it to a book, and sell it online. Personally, I would love to see one laid out with the story on the left-side pages, and the actual game steps on the right-hand pages. It could be entertaining to read, help sell the game, and be a tutorial all in one.

Rathar

November 26th, 2008, 01:38 AM

I just finished reading the whole thread and I feel compelled to say that on the whole you folks did a great job of discussing the issue in a calm and respectful way.

Nice jobs of stating things in a "You're crazy!" manner rather than in an "You're stupid!" way if you know what I mean. I know this issue has flamed out a couple of times before due to the latter way of speaking ones mind.

Tim Brooks, you did an amazing job explaining your position, nice work.

My opinion? I think there has gotta be a way in which digital distribution can out-perform mail only and still keep an effective anti-piracy measure possible. What way that is though... (?)

Ornedan

November 26th, 2008, 07:17 AM

Edi

November 26th, 2008, 08:17 AM

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format. End of story.Actually, both of your statements are false. Score another one for pirates offering better service.

If you really want to nitpick, go right ahead. Let me amend that:

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format via legitimate channels. End of story.

Happy?

As far as pirates offering better service? Bull****. They have taken what others have done and are conveniently handing it out to anyone who wants it for free while the people whose work they are exploiting do not get paid for their efforts, at least as far as those copies are concerned.

You have an interesting definition of better service, given the implications in a niche market like the one that Dominions 3 belongs to. Those implications might not always be realized in full, but pretending there is no impact is ignoring reality.

With regard to the condition of your packaging, contact Shrapnel support. They handle things like that as well. First I've heard of such problems.

capnq

November 26th, 2008, 09:05 AM

And will never be buying anything from Shrapnel via mail again. Package was moist when it arrived. One corner was torn off. Tape all over to patch up lesser damage.)Why are you blaming Shrapnel for a failure by the parcel delivery service?

Ornedan

November 26th, 2008, 09:39 AM

Regarding the packaging: Since the part of the manual with the cdkey was intact, it didn't cause any real problems. It is, however, a problem with delivery by mail and was meant to illustrate the problem that people outside the US face with only being able to obtain the game by mail - it might not arrive quite intact.

Gandalf Parker

November 26th, 2008, 09:48 AM

Actually thats one of the big problems with digital distribution. More than with the mail system (at least in my country). Ive been involved in sites trying to come up with their own controls on digital download. Its still an ongoing effort across the net.

The larger the product the more likely it will not arrive quite intact. So the system has to handle the purchase thru credit cards or paypal, then authorize a download, then remember the authorization in case the download breaks, then be able to allow the download again in a way that does not support someone else downloading it. And it has to do that without directly tying in the purchase information (you dont want credit cards stored forever on a download server). Usually its done with multiple servers. A hefty expense.

The purchase system has been ironed out for quite awhile. There are "shopping cart" packages available for installing on a server. But there are no good packages yet for DD. And the sites which offer only DD for their produts are being closely watched by everyone else to see how effectively they can manage the problems.

Soyweiser

November 26th, 2008, 09:51 AM

SlipperyJim

November 26th, 2008, 10:03 AM

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3463/threadlichnv1.jpg
Wow, I can't believe someone (Gandalf) revived this old thread. At least he was kind enough to also cast Gift of Reason on it, so that the discussion might be reasonable and polite.

Still, Shrapnel Games has clearly said that they won't offer digital downloads for Dom3 and that they aren't open to persuasion on the matter. The developers have said they're okay with Shrapnel's answer. Given those responses, I simply don't see how this discussion has any future to it ... no matter how reasonable and polite people are willing to be.

In other words, y'all are doing this: :horse:
So I'll do this: :hide:

Edi

November 26th, 2008, 11:57 AM

As far as pirates offering better service? Bull****. They have taken what others have done and are conveniently handing it out to anyone who wants it for free while the people whose work they are exploiting do not get paid for their efforts, at least as far as those copies are concerned.

Actually, getting free downloads and manuals is a better service than having to pay for it, and getting it mailed. That the creators are not getting paid is not relevant for service reasons.

Sure there are a lot of reasons why piracy is bad. (Mainly because developers are not getting paid). And the level of piracy will influence the service the developers will provide. But that does not make 'free download' a bad service. It just has other consequences. That these consequences are unwanted is a totally different issue.

Sorry for nitpicking :).
If the overall service form the developers degrades and/or ends completely, those consequences are very relevant. It depends on whether you look at things from the point of contact perspective or from the perspective of the entire chain.

From the latter, which is what I'm using, pirates are nothing but parasites. The "service" they provide is entirely dependent on someone else having done all the work, it is completely incapable of existing on its own. Therefore it is by definition inferior.

Computer games are a luxury product, so there is NO excuse to not pay for them. Some solutions may not be the most absolutely user friendly from the end user point of view, but must be used due to practical considerations.

But as has been said, Shrapnel Games has made its position crystal clear, so there is nothing left to discuss as far as digital downloads of Dominions 3 are concerned.

iceboy

November 26th, 2008, 03:53 PM

I was all for digital distribution until I discovered that if there are any new patches its almost impossible to patch a digitally distributed game because they are not compatible!!! I bought heroes v digitally and cant update the game to the new patch! :mad: Basically your screwed if you want a fully updated game especially if the game company comes out with a late patch....

Gandalf Parker

November 26th, 2008, 04:22 PM

thejeff

November 26th, 2008, 04:36 PM

Why would it be hard to track?
Or any harder than telling whether a CD install is authorized or not?

I may be naive about these things, but in the end there's an executable on the user's machine, to which you apply the patch. How it got there is irrelevant. Currently it's the CD-key that determines whether it's legit or not. Why not something similar with a download?

iceboy

November 26th, 2008, 05:00 PM

Szumo

November 26th, 2008, 05:32 PM

WOW that would totally suck with this game. I cant even begin to think what it would be like to go back at this point and play with the vanilla version right off the disc.

But Im not sure it would be true with all games. The difficult part is tracking whether or not a game is authorized to receive the patch. Minor patches might not be a big deal but full upgrades would be.

It has nothing to do with authorization. The store bought and digital bought are two different versions of the game. So any new patches cannot be applied!

See this thread about the new heroes v patch:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/6431050186/p/4

That depends on the game. There are games where store and digital bought executables are the same.

If you go with digital distribution, the best way to do it is like Stardock does it. I've bought Space Empires V on Steam and was dissapointed to find it installs in strange directory and can't use the same updates as normal version does.
On the other hand, Galactic Civilization II bought from Stardock worked much better.

Of course, Dominions is better game than either of those, yet still i had to buy it from an internet shop in England and wait for delivery. Well worth though, since i got Dominions i bought only one more game (and that was very disappointing Spore) as i haven't got bored with Dominions 3 yet :)

Gandalf Parker

November 26th, 2008, 05:50 PM

Stardock does seem to have a good lead on how to manage things. However they are not releasing their version of DD as a package. So its up to each site to try and write their own version if they want to follow in their footsteps.

Everyone is watching everyone else. Once someone really irons out all of the problems and makes it available as an installable package then I think many more sites will jump on. Just as it happened with forums, wikis, chats, and shopping carts.

Soyweiser

November 27th, 2008, 09:27 AM

So there is money to be made for the one who perfects this? That would be some incentive for people to do it.

JimMorrison

November 27th, 2008, 01:14 PM

So there is money to be made for the one who perfects this? That would be some incentive for people to do it.

If they have the infrastructure and the money to do so.

There's a lot of money to be made in Cold Fusion, as well, but I can understand Shrapnel not racing for the answers. ;)

Soyweiser

November 27th, 2008, 01:45 PM

If they have the infrastructure and the money to do so.

There's a lot of money to be made in Cold Fusion, as well, but I can understand Shrapnel not racing for the answers. ;)

True, but infrastructure and money are solvable problems. That is all a matter of scaling and acquiring capital. The first has been done by IT people for years now. And the second is also doable (but a bit harder in the current financial climate).

Edit:
And I'm not suggesting that Shrapnel should do it but if some company does this successfully it would be profitable for them.

Gandalf Parker

November 27th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Well the company that sells the Forum software we are using is doing well (after all, Shrapnel bought that. Twice). And the Shopping Cart software is doing well (Shrapnel bought that also). So yes I would guess that a Digital Download Distribution package would sell quite well eventually. It would have its dangers (like a shopping cart package) so I wouldnt expect Shrapnel to jump on one as soon as its released. But it would make a big difference in the decision to offer it or not.

The method being used by Shrapnel now for its other games seems to still be in transition testing.

Archonsod

November 27th, 2008, 05:16 PM

WOW that would totally suck with this game. I cant even begin to think what it would be like to go back at this point and play with the vanilla version right off the disc.

But Im not sure it would be true with all games. The difficult part is tracking whether or not a game is authorized to receive the patch. Minor patches might not be a big deal but full upgrades would be.

It depends on the distributor. Steam and Direct to Drive have their own DRM wrapper on the game, so nine times in ten you can't use the retail patch on their version. Gamer's Gate tends to provide the install ripped straight from the CD, so functionally it's identical to the retail release (in most cases, I recently bought Gothic III and they were kind enough to provide it pre-patched to 1.6, which they pointed out "means it can work with the community patches". Jolly nice of them I thought).
Impulse goes one better though; Stardock's intent is to allow you to register any game they carry regardless of where you bought it (primarily via CD keys and the like) so you can use the automatic update feature of Impulse with the game, which would be kind of neat for something like Dominions. Since it's verifying on CD keys no authentication issues either.

It would be nice to see Dominions up there on Impulse, although 99% of my problems with having the game shipped across the pond would be resolved if they'd just write "gift" on the customs declaration. Saves me £15 if her majesty's finest decide to poke around in my mail.

Makinus

November 28th, 2008, 07:45 AM

I sincerely hope that future products from illwinter offer digital distribution methods...

Would you believe that my Dominions package took more than 4 months to get to me in Brazil? All because of brazilian customs bureaucracy...

Gandalf Parker

November 28th, 2008, 12:52 PM

I wouldnt hold out much hope for that.
You can get one of the first Illwinter programs as DD, "Conquest of Ellysium II" and its even free. But a new product will likely be large, a major source of revenue for bot Illwinter and Shrapnel, and be offered thru Shrapnels channels. So I would not expect them to take chances on it.

What I WOULD like to see is previous versions offered as DD. If Dom1 or Dom2 were offered DD then I think it would be a reasonable argument in THAT case that the possible sales would outweigh the possible losses.

AstralWanderer

November 30th, 2008, 09:29 PM

To limit piracy, we would have to go to a system like Steam uses and I personally refuse to do this. I don't think that the person buying the game should be the one penalized for spending their hard earned money in support of our developers.This, to me, is an outstanding (and sadly, all too rare) sentiment to express. Sir, I salute you. Now if I could just develop a greater liking for hardcore wargames, I might purchase a few more items - but sadly Dom3 and SEIV are likely to be it for the time being.

Now how about flexing that chequebook and buying up Atari, Electronic Arts, Ubisoft and Valve and then sacking all the DRM-fanboys they employ? Then we could see digital distribution done properly, where legitimate purchasers don't have to live in fear of their licences being revoked (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1969).

As for the thread topic, I would be in favour of digital distribution generally (no postage delay or risk of damage due to an overzealous courier) but I consider the online activation requirements of systems like Steam or Impulse totally unacceptable and I boycott all their products on principle.

For those who have purchased from such services (and who go as far as to advocate them here) I'd just like to ask: Have you considered what would happen if the company went bankrupt and the activation servers shut down (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680)? Have you thought about the likelihood of digital publishers (Valve/Steam especially here) seeking to milk their customers in future by imposing an annual or monthly fee to keep accounts active? Have you ever thought that, by supporting such DRM, you are encouraging publishers to tighten systems more, pushing customers into digital slavery?The only way to do digital distribution without leaving buyers vulnerable to later exploitation is via "once only, ever" verification systems which essentially is how shareware works. You register when you pay, you receive a personal licence key (which then shows your name on the program title/opening screen - encouraging people to keep their keys private) and the only piracy check is a local blacklist of known warez keys that gets updated in subsequent patches. Pirates are denied the latest version without legitimate customers having to suffer.

JimMorrison

November 30th, 2008, 11:58 PM

For those who have purchased from such services (and who go as far as to advocate them here) I'd just like to ask: Have you considered what would happen if the company went bankrupt and the activation servers shut down (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680)? Have you thought about the likelihood of digital publishers (Valve/Steam especially here) seeking to milk their customers in future by imposing an annual or monthly fee to keep accounts active? Have you ever thought that, by supporting such DRM, you are encouraging publishers to tighten systems more, pushing customers into digital slavery?

1) The likelihood of Impulse/Stardock going out of business anytime soon is nil. Due to Brad's disposition, and his strong stance on these issues, I would not doubt that he would personally see to it that all products purchased prior to dissolution of Stardock, would be allowed to be used in perpetuity.

2) I do not and will not use Steam, or some of these other services. But to imply this is a possible scenario with Stardock, is to express lack of understanding of what Brad Wardell and Stardock are trying to accomplish.

3) Supporting Stardock/Impulse, actually discourages conventional DRM. Maybe their system could be better, but they are doing an excellent job of juggling their interests, with the interests of their customers.

Personally, I've come to despise physical media. I've seen more disk failures in my life than I care to count, some of them irreplaceable.

I don't think we've perfected anything yet, but I do believe strongly enough that Brad and Stardock -want- to find the best solution, that I will patronize them until they either find it, or give up. But I'll still play my Dominions, oh yes, yes I will. ;)

Lingchih

December 1st, 2008, 01:11 AM

Hmm. I'm coming in late on this, and think I posted before about it. But the Stardock system should just be licensed, and then Shrapnel could use it. The two sites seem to be on good terms with each other (running each other's ads), and the Stardock DD method is very good.

Soyweiser

December 1st, 2008, 07:25 AM

Edi

December 1st, 2008, 01:53 PM

There is a difference between DRM that requires the kind of online verification AstralWanderer's links and something like a serial key the way Dominions does it. The first one is far more obnoxious. The second shouldn't be much of a hassle for anyone who is a legitimate user.

Gandalf Parker

December 2nd, 2008, 04:15 PM

If you take the view that DRM is to prevent piracy then it will always be considered a failure. But that is also true of any protection scheme whether its for programs or real life protections, or even laws for that matter.

Gregstrom

December 2nd, 2008, 04:53 PM

Surely the purpose of DRM is to make money for the people that create it?

Gandalf Parker

December 2nd, 2008, 05:22 PM

Yes but 90% of it isnt against pirates. People complain that DRM only stops legal owners. And that is true. Because most of the control is purposely against "casual copying". The good-buddy sharing of games. As long as it stops that then its done most of the hopes of it.

Like any control or law or protection, anyone can say "it doesnt stop anything". But if you think of its goal as making it as hard as possible for as many as possible for as long as possible then it makes more sense. And its to make it clear where the line is drawn and when a person will be breaking the law. Same as a fence, or a lock on the door. Doesnt really STOP anything but I wouldnt stop using them. :)
The big battle of writers of DRM is against writers of backup softwares.

Soyweiser

December 3rd, 2008, 06:29 AM

Gandalf, sadly even casual copiers now have access to crack sites, and bittorrent. So for the mostly computer savy youth, it is easy to find a crack and to copy.

Gandalf Parker

December 4th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Gandalf, sadly even casual copiers now have access to crack sites, and bittorrent. So for the mostly computer savy youth, it is easy to find a crack and to copy.
But you would be surprised how many dont.
Ive seen it happen in user groups, corporations, military organizations, charities, just about any large group of people. A casual thing would happen but a clear "you are crossing the line" stops it. Even in computer copying. Ive often seen it come up as "let me have a copy" or "put it on all our machines". When it doesnt work for DRM someone will say "but you can download it off crack sites if you want" and many people will back off. Suddenly thats a line they wont go over.

Maybe not "computer savvy youth" but adults anyway.

Gandalf Parker
--
"Ive noticed that our hats get whiter as we get older."
"You mean our hair?"
"No, I meant our hats."
(its a hacker thing)

Ylvali

December 10th, 2008, 03:40 PM

Anyone with even slight experience of the pirate scene knows there is no reliable copy protection to date, and dominions certainly isn´t bullet proof in any way. IMO it is very wise of illwinter/shrapnel to not make it available for download.

IF there was a central server requiring an account for multiplayer (like WOW) there might be less negative impact from going the download route, but it would hardly be worth the effort and element of regulation that would have to be imposed on the MP community.

If, I don´t know but if, dominions isn´t available from the major pirate sites the reason is probably not it´s copy protection but that it is too niche to keep seeded for long.

All in all the current strategy of physical distribution + frequent patches + copy protection is probably the most efficient. Personally I guess the frequent patching required for MP is the key ingredient but what do I know?

thejeff

December 10th, 2008, 03:51 PM

Well if it's available from the major pirate sites, or isn't only because it's too niche, the lack of a download option really isn't stopping much is it?

Ylvali

December 10th, 2008, 06:18 PM

Yes it is, because it is kind of hard to get going without the manual. I have noticed that one of the most usual questions from undercover pirates in these forums are those asking for a downloadable manual.(I lost my manual blah blah...)

Illuminated One

December 10th, 2008, 06:59 PM

I don't think it would be that much of a problem for a pirate site to let people download the manual together with the game.

Gandalf Parker

December 10th, 2008, 07:12 PM

Im amazed that anyone thinks "its pirated so why bother" works as an argument. Thats like "thieves get in so why lock your doors"

Besides there are many pros and cons of DD.
You should see the impact on Shrapnels servers when a new patch is released.
Can you imagine the load when a long awaited full version sequel.
Even the demo of such a game is a problem and thats with many other servers helping make it available.

Also, one of the many requests for DD comes from people overseas who dont like to wait or dont like the questionability of their postal service. Do you think that overseas download will help that or create a digital version of the same problems. And as Ive said, tracking broken downloads to allow restarts is a major problem.

Soyweiser

December 10th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Im amazed that anyone thinks "its pirated so why bother" works as an argument. Thats like "thieves get in so why lock your doors"

The lock argument is equally flawed. You lock your doors so it takes longer for them to break in or it makes more noise so they are more easy to detect. It also depends on other social values. A locked door in a large busy city is good anti theft prevention. In the middle of nowhere a lock will not prevent thieves. The locks are only part of the security.

But of course you know that you shouldn't compare locks to copy protection. Pirates (or the better term would be hackers/crackers) have all the time of the world to work on a crack. They can do it from their home. No chance of detection. So in the end they will crack it.

I don't know if you have noticed the recent GTA debacle? They had some very advanced and nasty copy protection in the newest GTA. With a lot of stealth copy protection, after a few hours the controls would freeze, or act wierd. And a lot of other different things. But the game is also very buggy, I'm not saying that these bugs are related to the DRM. But it would have been better to spend the money that was now spend on the DRM, on improving the game. It took the pirates a week to crack this new copy protection.

But there is no doubt that piracy costs sales. I only wonder if copy protection really helps to prevent this. If cp is cost effective. I personally don't think so. BUT, I'm an industry outsider. And I have no data to back up my claims. And I don't really trust the piracy numbers that some companies use as an anti-piracy argument. (The music industry piracy losses are so high, that piracy caused the current recession)

More ontopic, of course the position of shrapnel on digital distribution has been clear. And they used the best arguments possible, imho. They did the math, it would not be profitable. They used science! Science, it works *****ez! I think this could be more clear in the FAQ.

I like the hat colour quote, Gandalf. My experience with youth and younger adults (>30) differs. Most either pirate, or use open source products. The crack site line, does not really exist here. But that is of course my experience. A lot of people still like to pay for stuff that they use. And I know a lot of people who donate money to open source products, help with open source products, and buy stuff they pirated before because it is that good. Of course, my experience is mostly university students and graduates. So I guess your hat really gets whiter when you grow older. (And as long as I still am a student of my university, I can use a lot of different software packages for free).

Gandalf Parker

December 10th, 2008, 08:49 PM

Actually I lock the doors to keep out the multitude that would walk easily in without locks. Some of which would do so without realizing that they werent supposed to. Thats how I look at copy protections also.

Ive also known quite a few kids who would not cross the line and go to a pirate site for something that foiled them at casually copying it.

And I wouldnt say "no chance of detection". Im a netcop and forensic consultant. Ive had my fair share of involvement in busting hackers, crackers, s-kiddies, wardialers, wardrivers, unlockers, and pirates. And the sites that go with them. :)

Endoperez

December 11th, 2008, 03:23 AM

A locked door in a large busy city is good anti theft prevention. In the middle of nowhere a lock will not prevent thieves. The locks are only part of the security.

I have personal experience from living in the middle of nowhere, and I can say that a lock will do a great deal to prevent unwanted visitors. They COULD break in when no one is home, no problem, but only people who can think "I'm going to break in and take a look" do that. Most people don't want to think of themselves as burglars, so they won't do that. Going in to "see if anybody's home" and "I thought nobody would miss this" isn't an actual "theft", it's just, well, something that happened.

As Gandalf was saying, locks and copy-protection might only slow down a professional law-breaker, but for the common man, it both marks the difference between legal and illegal and forces them to take their time and think if they really want to break the law.

Toran

December 11th, 2008, 10:08 AM

Guys, all that "The manual mustn't be available as PDF so it can't be pirated" is rather moot, since, well, in certain shady sources it is already available. So...?

I have heard of a friend of a brother of a cousin that was using the pirated version of the game and reading the manual while waiting for his game to deliver.. he decided the game's worth the buy after testing anyway (we have to admit - without the manual, you don't have a clue what's happening in the game, not even with the tutorial).

llamabeast

December 11th, 2008, 10:13 AM

"friend of a brother of a cousin" is presumably a friend of a cousin?

lch

December 11th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Gandalf Parker

December 11th, 2008, 10:58 AM

Toran

December 11th, 2008, 11:09 AM

Same with the docs as pdf thing. Just because pirate sites have it doesnt mean its worthless to protect it. As long as pirate sites openly declare themselves to be pirate sites then they arent much of a concern. But making it possible to get it from non-pirate sites would be disastrous to any effort to control it.

Why does it make a difference where the file originally comes from? In the end, either legitimate customers will get it with their product, or they will pirate it from one of various different sources. Most copying this day isn't done "from a friend to a friend" (although you gave protection as a means to inhibit that one), but just by spreading it over the web.

Yeah, I know, the "casual copying" will be avoided, but then it's just again the old game: The "good guys" (that would maybe just hand a friend a copy) get their DRM/protection stuff, and the anonymous masses in the web use an unprotected version of the game....

That's not meaning I'm a big fan of digital distribution - I will sometimes consider it for "small" investments or "small" games/tools, but not for games/programs I might also use/"need" in the far future where I might rely on certain servers to activate my product. Yep, I know, there are different methods, but in the end I hate all DRM and tend to use cracks on my original products where they help me with "comfort".

Anything that is less comfortable than what the pirated version offers is a bad thing IMO. Treat the customer friendly, don't try to limit him.

thejeff

December 11th, 2008, 11:33 AM

lch

December 11th, 2008, 11:51 AM

And as Ive said, tracking broken downloads to allow restarts is a major problem.
Only for games which require that you may only install the game exactly once with the copy that you bought and which adopt a DRM scheme for that. This game allows you to install and play the game on more than one machine, but not at the same time - you will get penalized for that in MP gaming. So, for this game it's not an issue at all.
Except in implementation. If you provide a code which allows a person to download to any machine, then you are back to allowing "casual copying" between buddies which has always been the main reason for DRM. Not pirates. As people say, you cant stop pirates.

Same with the docs as pdf thing. Just because pirate sites have it doesnt mean its worthless to protect it. As long as pirate sites openly declare themselves to be pirate sites then they arent much of a concern. But making it possible to get it from non-pirate sites would be disastrous to any effort to control it.
I don't understand what you're saying, or what your point is. The game as it is now does not depend on the CD as a physical medium to be present in the disc drive itself when installing. For machines that don't have an optical drive, I just copy the files on it over the network. The authentication of the game copy happens by the user when he starts the game the first time after installation, by typing in his serial code. Exactly the same could be done with a copy that has been downloaded over the internet.

As long as the game manual hasn't been made available for free download, other sites won't be able to offer it for free, too, and will refrain from doing so. Making it available then will be no less illegal than it is now.

What I've been saying is: There is no technical detail to the game that forbids digital downloads.

Soyweiser

December 11th, 2008, 12:51 PM

And I wouldnt say "no chance of detection". Im a netcop and forensic consultant. Ive had my fair share of involvement in busting hackers, crackers, s-kiddies, wardialers, wardrivers, unlockers, and pirates. And the sites that go with them. :)

Yeah, but that is distribution. That doesn't stop a cracker from destroying the cp. Those tactics also stop hackers/etc from distributing programs without cp.

I disagree with you about the casual copying stuff, and the locking stuff remembers people that they break the law argument. As my experience totally differs, people that I know in the middle of nowhere hardly lock their doors. But I have no other experience than personal experience. And in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't count. So I'll let that part stand, and stop discussing it.

(Perhaps I don't have problems with downloading cracks, as I have a lot of games for which I had to download a crack to play the game I legally bought. I also have had games which shipped without a manual. Somehow, most support people don't believe you when you say the game hasn't shipped with a manual, and it takes ages to even get a reply. (Not to mention that the turnover rate of game companies is rather high). So for me the line of illegality of going to a crack site doesn't exist).

And downloading a game from the internet is not illegal in some countries. Offering it for download is. The problem with downloading is a moral one, not a legal one. (Yet). It is of course still a issue. But a totally different one.

As long as the game manual hasn't been made available for free download, other sites won't be able to offer it for free, too, and will refrain from doing so. Making it available then will be no less illegal than it is now.

Good point, it remains illegal. But as soon as a pdf file is offered as documentation by illwinter it will be in a moral grey area. It is clear that is illegal and immoral to give away the code to the game. But it will feel less immoral to only give away the documentation. "It is not the game right?". "I'm only sharing the documentation, which is useless without the game. So it isn't a problem, right?". Right now the position of illwinter/shrapnel is very clear. Sharing the manual is illegal, and they don't want it. A pdf manual would be useless in comparison with a irl manual. So that is why the manual is not provided in pdf. Seems pretty clear right? When they now start to offer the manual as a pdf, it will be a less clear statement.

Personally I doubt that a pdf manual would be useful. It is way easier to search in a normal book. I love my manual, I doubt the pdf one will feel just as great. And if you really want to have a pdf manual with your hardcopy one. You could always download one of a pirate site. In most places it isn't illegal to download stuff you already own.

thejeff

December 11th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Personally I doubt that a pdf manual would be useful. It is way easier to search in a normal book. I love my manual, I doubt the pdf one will feel just as great.

I like the hardcopy manual too, but it's much easier to search in a pdf. I've paged through the manual many times looking for things that a quick Find command would have found in seconds.

Soyweiser

December 11th, 2008, 01:32 PM

I like the hardcopy manual too, but it's much easier to search in a pdf. I've paged through the manual many times looking for things that a quick Find command would have found in seconds.

I found the multiple indexes in the manual rather easy to use actually.

JimMorrison

December 11th, 2008, 07:58 PM

Except in implementation. If you provide a code which allows a person to download to any machine, then you are back to allowing "casual copying" between buddies which has always been the main reason for DRM. Not pirates. As people say, you cant stop pirates.

Stardock's system is actually exactly backwards from this. Since you must be logged in to your Stardock account to download/apply your patches, a pirate has a very difficult time enjoying their stolen product on even an SP level. Meanwhile, they have made statements that if someone downloads a game they purchased, on multiple machines in the same household, that it doesn't concern them so much if multiple people play off of that same purchase, though they "prefer" if only one person plays at a time.

Granted, unless you have an "always-on" internet connection like cable, there is some degree of inconvenience to this. However if you have constant internet access, then the DRM itself becomes hidden beneath the same patching process that you would endure for any game - but totally without requiring physical medium, or even a CD key.

I think that if it were feasible for Shrapnel to use that model, it could work fantastically for them. However, any company that doesn't make the leap to a system like that, is going to be in some way hampered by their need for some sort of DRM. One thing that I learned early on, with the Commodore 64, was that no DRM at all meant free copies for all. :p I was just a kid, but I learned very quickly that most games kind of sucked, and that I could never afford to wade out there and figure out which ones I liked, by simply buying every new $40 title out there.

Personally, I think that cost of media should relate to usage. So maybe it only cost you $5 to download something, then there would be an ongoing "subscription" fee, probably with a hardcap (if not a softcap that drops to a few pennies at the late end) at the eventual full price of the media. So if you grab a new game, and you find out that it is either incredibly shallow, incredibly short, or unappealing to you, you are not out a large sum of money, and as long as you use their web dialogue to uninstall, you won't pay full price for the title, and you can pick something else with relatively little risk. This would enable two factors to change the quality of games we see on the market - first it legitimizes the concept of "software returns", where your $5 initial download fee is like your restocking fee, but you aren't forced to eat a $60 loss for the worst game ever, and second it shifts the focus away from flashy, but stupidly short games, as if 90% of your players are just done with the game in a week, you will stop earning revenue very fast whereas a game with long term playability like Dominions would generate an ongoing revenue stream for years.

AstralWanderer

December 16th, 2008, 09:30 AM

1) The likelihood of Impulse/Stardock going out of business anytime soon is nil.Mm, quite a statement to make. Have you access to Stardock's accounts to back this up? If not, I would suggest such confidence to be misplaced. The most successful companies in the games industry can be brought to their knees within six months by poor decision-making, difficult trading conditions or actions taken by others (e.g. Interplay, Looking Glass, Black Isle).Due to Brad's disposition, and his strong stance on these issues, I would not doubt that he would personally see to it that all products purchased prior to dissolution of Stardock, would be allowed to be used in perpetuity.Company bankruptcies can be sudden and dramatic. Even with a well-intentioned CEO, there is no guarantee that customers would be allowed to continue activating products. It would be up to the creditors/administrators to decide this and it would seem more likely that this service would be cut (in order to save costs) or customers made to pay extra to continue activation. Shamus Young's Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) article has more discussion on this.But to imply this is a possible scenario with Stardock, is to express lack of understanding of what Brad Wardell and Stardock are trying to accomplish.I think I understand very well what Brad is seeking to accomplish. He's trying to make "his DRM" seem better than "everyone else's DRM". However if you check the implementation of Stardock's activation (an installation keyfile tied to a specific system) and the changes in terms and conditions they have already made (most notably, the imposition of a re-activation fee if they think that software has been transferred - see point 3 of this post (http://forums.stardock.com/122873/)), this should show that the downsides for Stardock's consumers are almost identical.Supporting Stardock/Impulse, actually discourages conventional DRM.Any system where multiple products are tied to a single account leaves customers open to digital blackmail at a later date (via annual or even monthly fees levied to keep that account active). Whatever Stardock are like now offers no guarantee as to how they will behave in the future. If there is any guarantee it is that companies will act in their own interests and should that involve bringing in a regime of regular payments by hook or by crook, then that will happen.

However, as Impulse sells games with "conventional" DRM (http://forums.stardock.com/327487), supporting it really isn't likely to make any difference.

Impulse has another specific disadvantage - it requires .NET Framework which not only makes it a slow application but one which adds a great deal of bloat to the Windows Registry (1.2MB - most other software adds 50KB or less) resulting in either reduced performance or greater memory usage, depending on whether that data is cached or not.Personally, I've come to despise physical media. I've seen more disk failures in my life than I care to count, some of them irreplaceable.The two times I've had CD failures were due to my not having installed no-CD patches (and hence using those CDs excessively). As long as CD/DVDs are kept packaged away and only used to install software, they should last for decades - no download site has this level of surety. The key thing is that software longevity is (almost) totally under the customer's control.

DRM-free software (like Dom3) is certainly the best choice, but media-based DRM involves less risk for the consumer than any online DRM.

Endoperez

December 16th, 2008, 09:59 AM

S.R. Krol

December 16th, 2008, 04:29 PM

but AFAIK Stardock is still making money from their non-gaming software and that should help them quite a bit.

Which is where Stardock differs from most other indie game publishers/developers. Their business software is their backbone, allowing them to venture into the game side.

AstralWanderer

December 24th, 2008, 03:11 AM

While the companies produced great games, I don't know if any of them were financially successful before their bankruptcy. At least Looking Glass wasn't, according to this article. (http://ttlg.com/articles/lgsclosing.asp)An interesting read - thanks for posting it! However I do think it reinforces the point made above in that none of Looking Glass's problems were known to their customers - and the initial commentary after their closure almost universally pointed the finger at Ion Storm.Which is where Stardock differs from most other indie game publishers/developers. Their business software is their backbone, allowing them to venture into the game side.Their desktop enhancement software (I really wouldn't call it business) is critically dependent upon them maintaining a good relationship with Microsoft and it has been whittled away due to features incorporated in recent Windows versions (e.g. XP's ZipFolders obsoleting ObjectZip, XP's Themes cutting into WindowBlinds sales, Vista's Sidebar displacing Control Center).

Stardock's increased emphasis on gaming may be a desire to diversify - but it could also be an increasingly urgent attempt to exit a vulnerable and shrinking market, under threat by the world's biggest convicted monopolist.

JimMorrison

December 24th, 2008, 05:23 AM

Which is where Stardock differs from most other indie game publishers/developers. Their business software is their backbone, allowing them to venture into the game side.Their desktop enhancement software (I really wouldn't call it business) is critically dependent upon them maintaining a good relationship with Microsoft and it has been whittled away due to features incorporated in recent Windows versions (e.g. XP's ZipFolders obsoleting ObjectZip, XP's Themes cutting into WindowBlinds sales, Vista's Sidebar displacing Control Center).

Stardock's increased emphasis on gaming may be a desire to diversify - but it could also be an increasingly urgent attempt to exit a vulnerable and shrinking market, under threat by the world's biggest convicted monopolist.

Errr, except that Stardock's first product happened to be a game? So they are diversifying back into the market that they got their start in, and doing so with top selling titles, and high profile partnerships? They may be de-emphasizing their OS optimization software, but at the same time they are refocusing on what got them where they are today, and they're doing so with effective and clear plans.

But this is tangential to my original point - that if I take Brad at face value, as the person he portrays himself as, then I am confident that he will make his software public domain, if his company completely fails. You can argue that if things get really rough, they will enact the draconian user fees and whatnot that you seem so scared of, but I simply don't think that Stardock in particular, is a company that would stoop to such levels, as long as Brad is at the wheel.

AstralWanderer

December 24th, 2008, 10:26 AM

...then I am confident that he will make his software public domain, if his company completely fails.As this Authorization Servers (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1680) article notes, if a company fails, it is the creditors that dispose of its assets. It is unlikely that anyone, even the CEO, would be able to release them free to the public without facing legal action....I simply don't think that Stardock in particular, is a company that would stoop to such levels, as long as Brad is at the wheel.My view is that companies should be judged by their actions, not their PR. Stardock's PR has been great - especially compared to the train-wrecks of some other publishers (EA, 2K, etc) - but their actions (switch-and-bait DRM, imposing extra charges) differ little from the tactics used by others and the backpedaling on their "Gamer's Bill of Rights" (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/17/stardock_revises_gamer_bill_of_rights/) seems to have confirmed that as PR over principle (not least since Stardock themselves don't comply - points 8-10 notably though 4 is open to debate too).

Gandalf Parker

December 24th, 2008, 11:11 AM

As always, facts are facts. But agreement often depends on the choice of words used to define the facts.

Backpedaling could also be called "learning" or "flexibility". Brad's "Gamer's Bill of Rights" initially had points in it which were wonderful but just didnt hold up in the real world. We all wish they had, but I cant hold it against him for figuring out that it needed some changes.

As to the other persons comment on Brad's reliance on MicroSoft that might be true but Id find it surprising. Brad's entry into the MS arena is actually fairly new for him. I knew him well before that and he was already well known in the areas of AI, gaming AI, and alternative marketing. For as long as he was a very vocal anti-MS person, until MS finally became capable of what he wanted (with WinXP irrc), Id be surprised that he has become such a staunch convert that he isnt keeping his eye on other directions to jump to. IMHO

AstralWanderer

December 24th, 2008, 01:06 PM

Backpedaling could also be called "learning" or "flexibility".True. People should review the details and decide for themselves. The "no harmful software" removal seems hard to justify though.Brad's entry into the MS arena is actually fairly new for him...until MS finally became capable of what he wanted (with WinXP irrc)New? The first release of Windowblinds was over 10 years ago. What sort of timescales are we looking at here? ;)

MaxWilson

December 24th, 2008, 01:17 PM

IIRC Brad was well-known on Usenet for game AI in 1992 or so.

JimMorrison

December 24th, 2008, 03:07 PM

Backpedaling could also be called "learning" or "flexibility".True. People should review the details and decide for themselves. The "no harmful software" removal seems hard to justify though.

Honestly I'm pretty sure this was only removed in wording, for "political" purposes. He wants to shake things up a bit in the market, but he doesn't want everyone pissed at him for implying that they are deliberately installing malware with their products

Gandalf Parker

December 24th, 2008, 03:26 PM

Brads entry into the Win territory was announced with his thrill that Windows had finally achieved at least a workable simulation of threaded
Its not hard to find many posts in groups.google.com for Brad Wardell. I couldnt find the thread where he announce his Windows version of GalCiv and why he had decided to do it. Something to do with multi-threading.

But here are a couple of fairly telling articles which tend to give BWs positions the way I remember it.

Brad Wardell Apr 27, 1995
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.programmer/browse_thread/thread/7173459a66a583e2?hl=en

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.os2.misc/browse_thread/thread/da6c13e3a2f38834?hl=en&ie=UTF-8

AstralWanderer

December 28th, 2008, 01:13 PM

But here are a couple of fairly telling articles which tend to give BWs positions the way I remember it...Interesting piece of nostalgia - but come on, 13 years can hardly be described as "fairly new"!

Gandalf Parker

December 28th, 2008, 01:55 PM

Hey! Im old!
No actually his announcement of shifting to windows was in the 2000's someplace Im sure. And if it is WinXP he is talking about that has achieved what he considered to be minimal support for his games then it wasnt all that long ago.

Keratin

March 21st, 2009, 12:28 AM

Hello Dominions 3 community. I just recently discovered Dominions 3, and I must say I am blown away by how excellent (and unique) the game is. I stayed up till the break of dawn last night winning my first completed game against the machine, and it was great time.

I decided I wanted to buy the game, so as not to embarrass myself when trying to engage in multiplayer, so I came here. Then I was quite shocked by the price tag.
Then I couldn't find the "buy downloadable version" button.
Then I came to the message boards, and found this thread in the FAQ.
Then I read this, and felt bad.

We are sort of happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game. Actually that's not true, we are very, very happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game. I think good people probably won't like hearing what I'm going to say. But they should know that the quoted text above is not really... reality. *snip*

Now, I admit to not knowing anything about the business side of these things, but my friends, I fear you are functioning off of some really bad information. With the combination of the games sparing graphical presentation, shocking pricetag, and absence of direct-download option, vs. how insanely easy it is to pirate, I honestly cannot fathom how you expect people to NOT pirate it.

I really hope that if you choose not to offer direct downloads, you do it for good reasons and not bad reasons. These honestly seem like erroneous reasons.

Gandalf Parker

March 21st, 2009, 12:38 AM

Have you tried that downloaded game? And did it come with a couple PDF files or the full 300 page manual as a pdf file? :)
I check the available files on a regular basis. They tend to be older versions, which develop menu problems quickly, and wont patch forward successfully. Thats part of the protection scheme for this game. Appearing to be a good download, but it only plays enough to make you want to buy a fully working version.

Occassionally I find a working latest version, but the next patch tends to wipe it out. (and we just had a patch)

Gandalf Parker
--
Planning Committees for Internet, SysAdmin for ISPs, Administrator for servers, Channel Ops for IRC, paid Moderator for web forums and newsgroups. Honeypots, Forensics, Enforcer. Whatever you think NetCop is, Ive been.
Ive even got the shirt! http://www.cafepress.com/oddthotz/740452?pid=2837642

Keratin

March 21st, 2009, 12:58 AM

...
I admit that in retrospect I felt sorry for the title for being so difficult to acquire legally and so easy to acquire illegally. I like the game. I want to support the game (now that I know how good it is.) But I'm disinclined to pay money to buy myself a hassle. And sitting around with my thumb up my *** for a week, so that I can receive some more annoying physical possessions I get to lug around with me till I die, all for the low low price of $60, seems like quite a lot of hassle. I'll buy the game, but I honestly feel like I'm being punished for wanting to do the right thing. I'd rather be punished with annoying DRM crap than this. And I'm quite certain I'm not a beautiful and unique snowflake and nobody feels this way but me.

Gandalf Parker

March 21st, 2009, 01:21 AM

Well Ive paid that for much prettier games that lasted a month on my machine. Paying it for a game that lasts years seems like a good deal.

From what you say it looks like I need to go searching again. Expect your downloaded key to not work in the next patch. :evil:

Ballbarian

March 21st, 2009, 01:22 AM

I'll buy the game, but...

I hope you do regardless of the ill fated first posts. Feel free to contact the administrators to see about having your banning reversed if you do purchase the game, but promoting piracy on these forums will not be tolerated.

lch

March 21st, 2009, 04:13 AM

Pirating is easy? Amazing! Who woulda thunk! Thanks for opening my eyes. :crazy:

getter77

March 21st, 2009, 10:16 AM

Gandalf Parker

March 21st, 2009, 01:30 PM

Ummmm.... have you ever visited Shrapnels site?
Shrapnel does do digital distro with some of its titles.

S.R. Krol

March 21st, 2009, 01:45 PM

Serious question: What about the folks at Shrapnel having a sit down of sorts with the folks at GoG www.gog.com and seeing how things would pan out to, eventually, try a digitial distro route solely with the out of print and long out of print titles Shrapnel still has a claim to?

Because our games never go out of print. ;) Games which we do not offer anymore are because our contracts with the developers have ended. The fact that games don't have an artificially imposed life cycle is one of the reasons that indie publishing is superior to AAA publishing, and was one of the reasons you started seeing a rise in the indie world in the late '90s. Some folks got tired of a two week window to sell a game, followed by the bargain bin, ending with it vanishing.

Gandalf Parker

March 21st, 2009, 02:02 PM

Altho...
some do have previous versions. Such as Dom1 and Dom2.
Im not sure if that would be worthwhile but it was a thought.

S.R. Krol

March 21st, 2009, 02:40 PM

Okay, yeah hadn't thought about that, but given a choice between the latest and greatest and an earlier incarnation, would anyone really want to go backwards?

Gandalf Parker

March 21st, 2009, 03:04 PM

It would be an answer for those who complain loudly about not having DD for Dom3. People overseas or just in a hurry. Particularly if it was offered at a lower price than it was originally sold for.

Or offering purchases of serial keys for those older versions.

I dont know if anything would come of it but at least then we could say "well you CAN get Dom2"

Omnirizon

March 21st, 2009, 03:34 PM

why did banned user's post get snipped just at the point where he was going to explain what reality is?

sector24

March 21st, 2009, 03:45 PM

I don't know what he said, but immediately after Carrie Fisher said something to Peter Cushing before he locked her away in the dungeon.

Edi

March 21st, 2009, 04:02 PM

why did banned user's post get snipped just at the point where he was going to explain what reality is?

Look at the edit reason of the post, as entered by Ballbarian:

Removed the brief "How to Pirate for Dummies" guide.

Ballbarian

March 21st, 2009, 06:09 PM

why did banned user's post get snipped just at the point where he was going to explain what reality is?

Because reality would begin to unravel and you might discover that we are all just human batteries that power the internet. :pc:

(Or probably what Edi said. He is usually right. :) )

getter77

March 21st, 2009, 07:07 PM

Okay, yeah hadn't thought about that, but given a choice between the latest and greatest and an earlier incarnation, would anyone really want to go backwards?

Yeah, that was primarily what I meant. Like, I ran into one guy online that had actually heard of Dominions III before due to having owned and played Dominions II. By his reckoning, he preferred II due to feeling III had too many options and thought it might be a better starting point for me to track down a copy of II rather than jump headfirst into III. Of course, by the time he'd mentioned this, I'd already ordered Dom III and Scalywag off of here without so much as touching the demos...but it does give food for thought.

I've seen some spots, even that piracy idiot, cite the high price as a barrier of entry as to just how out there a game Dom III can apparently be. So, if say Dom 1+2, or something, were offered at a cheaper price by the likes of GoG, then they could get an "appetizer" as opposed to a demo "taste" and then perhaps be less dissuaded by the high pricetag and grab Dominions III.

For newcomers, aside from the weird ones like me, they might have a better disposition towards the lot of it by playing the games in the order they existed so as to have a better sense of how far it has come and where it is seemingly heading.

Mainly I was intending to interject an entirely different player, GoG, compared to Steam and the like upon which it can get divisive to the notion of digital distro in general. Had I discovered Shrapnel, Dominions, etc some years back I wouldn't be quite so late to the party that is Dom III---and I reckon it is likely that there are other folk like me out there that have been missing out these past several years. Besides, a new game is a new game to somebody the first time they encounter it when you get right down to it---"age" only becomes relevant after the fact.

Otherwise, it never hurts to have games you already provide a free download for in another place where a prospective audience could come across it unawares and then perhaps find their way here. Can't Google it if you've not seen or heard about it, and there's something to be said to preaching to the choir if the latest and greatest along with the classics doesn't make the rounds in foreign venues to show newcomers what's up.

Theonlystd

March 22nd, 2009, 07:57 PM

I say this every time these threads come up.

But always been bewildered by the lack of digital distribution which would help. Since i've never seen the game advertised anywhere ..

And then when people finally do find it.. They find a game that costs 50,55 dollars and with no digital distrubtion option you are looking at 60 + for a game that doesnt have the production values of other games priced at the same value.

Which has basically turned off everyone i've ever tried to get into the game. And i try with anyone i can at every opportunity .

Gandalf Parker

March 22nd, 2009, 08:14 PM

I totally believe that to be true.

However the "magic numbers" for changing such things are well known and have been for a long time to anyone who has ever taken a marketing class. What you say would still be true for someone no matter what things are set to. There will always be some that do and some that dont at every level.

Everything has its pros and cons. There are excellent reasons to change. And many reasons why the things are done the way they are done now. Believe me, Shrapnel and Illwinter are not blind to the pros and cons.

Makinus

March 24th, 2009, 03:23 PM

About playing DOM II: i still play dom2 freqüently in my notebook, even having dom3, as my notebook isn´t powerful enough to run Dom3 satisfactorily, while it plays Dom2 just fine (with minimum graphics), and i´m constantly traveling so i end playing more Dom2 than Dom3 some months...

JimMorrison

March 24th, 2009, 06:13 PM

However the "magic numbers" for changing such things are well known and have been for a long time to anyone who has ever taken a marketing class.

You don't have to go to a school to learn how a cost:benefit ratio works.....

Gandalf Parker

March 24th, 2009, 07:04 PM

Theonlystd

March 24th, 2009, 07:35 PM

There isnt much you HAVE to go to college to understand. Its just a compilation.

But it includes more than cost/benefit. Many people dont understand why so many products are priced 5.99 or 19.99 or 59.99. Or diminishing numbers when operating on a niche market. Or the difference between marketing and publicity.

Well i understand why they havnt wanted to lower the price cause of a niche market and that good stuff at first ..

But its been 2 and a half years a price cut couldnt hurt or atleast digital distrubtion to help lower the costs on a allready expensive product wouldnt be that terrible either.

I really think a lack of digital distribution kills there chances at an impulse buyers.. I know when i bored i end up buying something off gamers gate or steam.. I wouldnt buy it if i was going to have to wait for it to ship to me threw snail mail .

And i dont think the game is that niche..

Kings Bounty has been pretty popular, The recently awful Heroes of might and magic series pumps outs expansions and sure another is in the work besides there browser one they are working on.. One of the most popular mods for Civ4 is the fall from heaven mod.. And Stardocks elemental war of magic is one of the more eagerly awaited games . All of these are turn based strategy fantasy games that are pretty popular .And these are just the ones i remember off the top of my head

Dom3 i've never seen it advertised anywhere , and it costs alot more than all those doesnt match up in the graphics department . So i know alot of people overlook it without a second thought.

But as said i harp on this everytime these threads pop up. And ill do it every time one comes up hoping something changes

. And no matter what the price is ill keep recommending the game to anyone i know who enjoys strategy games and maybe ill get someone to give it a try ..

JimMorrison

March 24th, 2009, 11:45 PM

Gandalf Parker

March 25th, 2009, 12:10 AM

Endoperez

March 25th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Omnirizon

March 25th, 2009, 01:36 AM

Another point is that DD is not a finalized solution. It is a proven one, but not a finalized one. There is no ready-made package for providing DD which is secure for both customer and distributor. Its not like shopping carts, or online sales. Basically the concept of DD is still alpha for each company doing it.

I think this has started to change, or has been taken care of already. Valve's Steam has been around for a while, and it's offering services to third-party games. Steam's competitors might still have some quirks to take care of, but since they already have Steam to copy from they can focus on the security issues. Even the newest game consoles offer games (mostly small ones) through their network services.

Not that it necessarily affects Shrapnel Games' decisions.

in the ramp up to the Wii, Nintendo actively stamped out any trace of ROMs of Nintendo published games across the interwebs; all because they intended to make all these old games available as downloads on the Wii and didn't want the presence of ROMs cutting in.

Not that it had any effect, seriously. First off, the experience of playing a game on an actual console, with proper sound, control, and a big TV is leagues beyond a ROM on an emulator. If I had a ROM on an emulator that I liked, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it if I could play it on my console and it was as easy as getting it through DD. Second off, Nintendo didn't really do much by stamping out the presence of ROMs through direct download except to push connoisseurs to package all the Nintendo published ROMs in torrent downloads and provide a large population of active torrents for these ROMs, allowing them to all be gotten at once for much easier; Iron Law of Prohibition strikes again.

Back to my main point. DD is beyond alpha. It's being used by major corporations to give greater coverage to their marginal products.

Dragar

March 25th, 2009, 02:45 AM

Digital distribution issues aside, which I know next to nothing about, I don't know what the fuss is about the price.. maybe it's because games are so overpriced here in australia, but this was a lot cheaper than most games I'd find in a store. In terms of impulse buying, surely this isn't the kind of game that many people buy on impulse?

It is exactly because of the kind of game it is and the depth in gameplay alongside fairly primitive graphics that is why I don't see its value diminishing over time. Graphics were never the selling point, as they are in a lot of modern games. Gameplay is where dominions shine and that hasn't degraded relative to the competition whatsoever since it was released. It's one thing for a flashy new game with mint graphics built for the latest video cards, which 2 years down the track are outdone by newer games, but Dominions is still just as desirable to its niche audience, especially with all of the patch updates.

I also don't think you can really say there are lots of TBS fantasy alternates by pointing to a non-commercial mod (Civ 4's fall from heaven) or game that hasn't even hit beta (elemental), while HOMM is a very different game and hasn't had a new release for a couple of years now.

Sombre

March 25th, 2009, 04:57 AM

Compare dom3 in price to other fantasy strategy games released years ago. I don't think people are making a fuss about it, it's just that it's an expensive game. I don't know about pricing in Australia but dom3 still costs more than most new pc games in the UK, provided you shop smart. Something you aren't able to do with dom3.

Zeldor

March 25th, 2009, 08:04 AM

We have been talking about it long enough. I think that most people agree that downloadable version would be a good idea. But we are not Shrapnel. I don't like Shrapnel personally. They just happened to get one good game - Dominions. I think their business model is flawed and that they have no idea about selling games or doing any advertisement.

And yeah, pirating dominions is very easy. It's not hard to find it. It comes with full manual in pdf. But you don't get multiplayer. Or latest patches. Partly because hackers rather don't care so much about a niche game with small playerbase.

My dream is that Illwinter makes Dom4 with new code and most of desired features and releases it through someone else.

getter77

March 25th, 2009, 10:12 AM

Much of this comes down to value perceptions on top of awareness. For example, Elven Legacy comes out in another week or so for about $30. Stardock's Elemental comes out in a year or so for about $50. Dom III runs about $60 for the last good while.

Is Elven Legacy a budget piece of junk due to such a low price? Doubt it.
Is Dom III overpriced considering the stream of content and fixes? Nope.
Is Elemental asking too much versus the cost of Elven Legacy? Nope

All 3 games have entirely different business situations and mindshare among the consumers going for them. Thus it is little wonder the pricing schemes are different. However, in terms of visibility, Dom III falls far behind the other two since they can leverage off of each other's presence in one or more high traffic areas for gaming enthusiasts.

None of these games are for "everyone". Thus, and has been showcased through the years from the sales of predecessors, there is a limited but decently sized market of players that either have bought into this style before, are currently doing so, or might be a candidate to do so due to gaming tastes in peripheral genres. I fall into the latter as a Roguelike guy and only discovered Dom III by a combination of accidents and sudden realizations.

So, if you've a pool to draw from, best take whatever low cost measures possible to get visibility and a sustained presence to said pool. The more choices the consumers can be informed about, the better the overall experience and competition between all concerned. There's ALWAYS overlap in a niche at some point, ALWAYS---so better sooner than later.

The price point in terms of perceived value to an enthusiast is also something to bear in mind. Think of it this way: If Dom III came out and never saw a single patch/update, same for the upcoming Elven Legacy and Elemental, would one really expect any of the titles to maintain their launch price a year after the fact and perceived value to the target enthusiast audience? I should think not barring a magical release of a perfect and fully realized product. Because the developers and community have continued to work hard and regularly improve the game well beyond when it was first released, I see it as perfectly logical that the price has not collapsed significantly as a reaction to the many people who simply then would not have paid the starting amount for a game abandoned after launch.

tortoise

April 26th, 2009, 04:21 PM

Hey D3 forums

Fully cognizant of the degree to which it is bad netiquette, another newbie registers just to post in an old thread! I hope you'll be forgiving. I'm in a mood to blather about economics. :)

I'm a Mac user. There aren't that many Mac games. A few days ago I was on macgamestore.com glaring annoyed at the release of some new 'AAA' strategy game (maybe was it a C&C?): boxed product, no demo available. I clicked around various related listings. Ended up with the D3 demo on my machine. Ran through the tutorial. And another demo game. It's awesome, I'm in love, I have to have it.

A few days, a couple exhausted demo games, and much fruitless internet scouring later, I'm here to blather about economics. If I could have bought D3 as a digital download for an appropriate price, I would have by now. Appropriate price? At certain points in these last days, my willingness to pay has certainly been over $200.

I'm not a unique or beautiful snowflake, but the value of something is a bit different to every person. I like my instant gratification. I calculate an expectation of the value I will derive from something and don't need to shop for deals (though I do shop for deals sometimes because I derive pleasure from that activity itself). I have evaluated D3 as a game that could provide (a very high level of enjoyment) * (a very large number of hours) = a lot of value to me. I have sufficient disposable income and an inclination to express appreciation for people who create value for me. And I have an extreme aversion to physical goods.
[these things have of course not always been true. *reminisces about being a snowflake* ]

To me, the ecological costs of physical distribution relative to digital distribution are unacceptable. There are a number of embedded assumptions in this, some of which may be naive. But all of the issues discussed in this thread about technical difficulties and costs of digital distribution are I believe inherently solvable by technology. If here in 2009 we're really not there yet it'd be kinda astounding (I think we are), but would just mean it'll be next year, or the year after. Transaction costs of digital distribution decrease with technological improvements much more rapidly than transaction costs of physical distribution do. Torn damp packages and four months waiting for customs in Brazil are transaction costs of physical distribution that are much less likely to be 'solved' in the next iteration of technology than transaction costs of digital distribution like resuming downloads.

I find it quite interesting that Tim said support costs for digital distribution are much higher than for physical distribution. It wasn't really clear from how you stated it, but I assume you must have meant the 17:1 comparison was for DD of a game vs. PD of that same game, and that this ratio was similar across all games that have DD and PD options? to control for quality differences between those games for which DD is available and those for which it's not.
I don't know the timescale over which these things can shift... is this 17:1 still the case (1+yr later)?
That's an issue to solve which should be solvable.

I'm a little unclear on part of the marginal cost stuff for the producer/seller side. I understand that due to the efficiencies of scale of physical manufacture, the marginal cost of a physical unit decreases with the number of units produced. But Tim's post seems to go further, saying that the marginal physical unit actually decreases the cost of previous units,.. that marginal cost of a physical unit is actually _negative_?! That seems like a broken (illogical, distorted, unsustainable) system, that must eventually be replaced with something better (more sane).

My impression is that at the scale digital systems are operating, marginal cost of a marginal unit is essentially flat (possibly not true for the cost structure of some of the transaction systems Shrapnel is using?). And I basically expect that as technology 'gets there,' marginal cost of digital distribution should go to zero, in a way that marginal cost of physical distribution *can't*. So given the choice of a marginal transaction as digital or as physical, I would expect the seller should prefer digital.
But Tim seems to say that once your fixed costs for physical are paid, the marginal cost of a physical unit is actually negative. Which seems counterintuitive to be point that it's really hard to believe. I don't know how much physical production costs, but I know how much it costs to ship a gig of data across the web, and it's a lot less than shipping a package across the United States, or around the world.

For me, as a buyer, transaction cost of digital is faaaar lower than transaction cost of physical. Many people have mentioned in this thread many reasons why transaction cost of digital is lower for them; I share most of those; my ecology neurosis is the only new factor I'm adding to the list. So the price tag I'm willing to pay for the digital transaction is far higher than the price tag I'm willing to pay for the physical transaction.
When I compare a theoretical physical purchase vs. digital purchase of the same software, my cost evaluation is like
[physical] price tag + s&h price + disappointment that I can't use immediately + ship time + receiving package + chance of delivery failure + handling physical media + cutting spine off manual + scanning manual + OCR'ing manual + search still won't be as good as if I'd gotten the manual directly as a text file + recycling physical material + regret about physical material that can't be recycled/wasted resources = total cost to me
vs
[digital] price tag - instant gratification = total cost to me
Most of those costs don't vary in size much from hour to hour or day to day. Instant gratification is the one exception. I'm not going to run through estimating dollar values to each, but you get the idea how there could be some moment at which it is more efficient (lower total cost) for me to pay $200 for a digital download than $60 to order a shipped box.

This is all in a world where seller and marginal buyer are considering whether marginal transaction should be digital or physical, and considering only marginal buyer's willingness to pay. There are all sorts of reasons why reality is nothing like this, including that markets with seller-set take-it-or-leave-it prices don't lend themselves to price discrimination, and that buyers might be freeloaders.

One person drew ire earlier in the thread by saying that the pirates offer better customer support. That comment is exactly right, for the specific meaning that those groups fearlessly minimize transaction costs. That transaction cost decrease can be even more significant in the effect on total cost for a consumer to acquire the good than the decrease in price tag, as transaction costs are often much higher than price tag. The great successes of licensed online distribution have been in online stores that effectively drive down transaction cost (including search costs). iTunes store? Steam? Yeah.

It's getting late where I am so I'm not going to delve into freeloading or anti-freeloading countermeasures right now, interesting though they are.

I understand that digital distribution for D3 isn't gonna happen. I'm not trying to make it happen. Just blathering about economics :)
Tim's contention that offering digital distribution isn't likely to increase sales is I think right. Potential buyers (again I am only talking about non-freeloaders) will either assess the likely value to them of D3 as so high that they are willing to accept the higher transaction costs (as every other poster in this thread I think has), or they wouldn't buy the game via DD for $60 anyway. Given a single price, offering DD would just shift buyers from PD, not significantly change sales volume.

We typically see DD and PD offered at the same price tag for software, or often DD has a lower price tag. The economics say that sellers really should be putting higher price tags on the DD. But of course in reality, that triggers all sorts of nastiness like 'other psychological effects.' :p
$200 for a game download? [i]preposterous!
right? right? :D
Illwinter, Shrapnel, will you sell me a DD of D3 for $200 Paypal?

I'm not going to order a physical box. I may be the first actual missed sale. :(

Gandalf Parker

April 26th, 2009, 05:19 PM

I love when someone outside of a business uses the term naive. What an incredible assumption. I dont feel like tackling your whole post but here are some (also now just another outsider) points to bring up.

A) Shrapnel does have DD games

B) the examples you give (iTunes, Stream) are examples of $1.99 or $9.99 products? You seem to feel this is done because it can be done cheaper, not because its the media for any already cheap products?

C) DD is not yet an accepted secure method. Much of the support for it comes from claims of broken, partial, or un-installable downloads. And the working DD companies all have their own software for delivery/tracking which they are not sharing

D) bringing a price down does not have nearly the effect on increased sales when its a non-competitive market as people seem to think

E) I am sure that Shrapnel is continually re-evaluating all of their products as possible DD sales as the technology advances to make it worthwhile to entrust their big hitters to it

F) I would suspect that the loss of your sale is no surprise. Im guessing it was already figured into the statistics.

PsiSoldier

April 26th, 2009, 08:10 PM

Well to throw my 2 cents in, it is entirely possible that had I only recently learned of Dom3 I might have passed on acquiring in favor of a something more easily obtained through Stardocks Impulse or Steam, although I'm not as big a fan of Steam. Or through my local Gamestop or Bestbuy. But then again I like to lay in bed and look at a printed manual too And ultimately if I were given a choice between instant gratification or a nice thick manual to look at and take with me to read at lunch at work I'd probably go with the physical copy, after all it was an article in a gaming mag Tom Vs. Bruce which was written by the author of the Dom3 Manual that got me to look at Dominions 3 in the first place. However with that being said. I'd have also probably paid a bit extra for an Instant digital download + my physical copy of the game.

In the beginning I was completely opposed to the services like Steam and Impulse and was very annoyed that some of them would not allow you to play the games that you had purchased unless you were online and logged into their particular service.

However with that being said I have come to appreciate certain aspects of them. For example I am notorious for loosing old manuals or jewel cases that had my CD key printed on them, and with my purchases from Stardock or Steam even the ones that I physically buy at the store after registering the product I no longer have to worry about loosing the CD Key or even loosing the disc itself because I know that if I ever do I can just log on to my Impulse account (And probably steam too) and it will show all the games I have a right to and I can just re-download the specific game I would like to play again with no fuss. Its really very nice. In fact I'm not sure I could put my hands on my Dom3 manual at the moment were I forced to format my computer or if I were to have a Hard drive failure and I would definitely be wishing I had had an option to register it on a service like Impulse.