'Question of Balance' - CB ea (upload pretenders)

[Sir_Dr_D]

QM has done a good job with the latest version of the Conceptual Balance Mod. I therefore want to get going a CB game. So everyone knows, most of the things that people did not like about it have been brought back to the original vanilla. Things like path boosting items and dwarven hammers have been brought back to normal cost, and indy commanders have been denerfed. Instead useless or little used items, spells, and pretenders have been made cool. I will also include as an attachment Clevelands revised magic item chart, so you can easily see the CB changes to the magic items.
Here is a link to the mod details. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=578909&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

The game will be pbem and hosted by the llamaserver. The details are:

age: early era
mods: conceptual balance 1.2 complete
worthy heroes 1.8
graphs: on
victory conditions: victory points, 1 per capital. Four victory points will be needed to win.
map: Twans edition to the Urraparrand map. get it here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=576920&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)
hosting schedule: every 48 hours. Quickhost. 24 hour scedule for the first 10 turns.
renaming: on
all other settings: default

I would like as many players as possible. Since there is a newbie CB game starting up as well I would prefer this game to be for more experienced players, but everyone is welcome. As you sign up, give suggestions for a map if you have any.

So far we have:

Sir Dr D - Pangaea
DryaUnda - Acro
IndyPendant - Mictlan.
Jazzepi - Agartha
Hadrian_II - abysia
nozshand - tienchi
Reverend Zombie - Sauromatia
Dimaz - C'tis
Ylvali - Yomi
Kuritza - Marverni
Krec - Neifleheim

[AlgaeNymph]

I'd like to be in as Arcocephale.

[IndyPendant]

Note that CB Complete v1.2 includes Worthy Heroes v1.8.

I would like to take Mictlan.

[Reverend Zombie]

Niefelheim, please.

[Jazzepi]

I'll take EA Argatha.

Jazzepi

[Hadrian_II]

i will take a shot at abysia

[nozshand]

tienchi please

[Reverend Zombie]

I'm going to bow out, so Niefelheim is free.

I still just can't buy into the CB mod's changes.

[Zeldor]

BTW if anyone feels not experienced enough for that game I am starting a semi-newbie game with CBM 1.2

[quantum_mechani]

Reverend Zombie said:
I'm going to bow out, so Niefelheim is free.

I still just can't buy into the CB mod's changes.

I recall you played with dom2 CB, what has changed so much from then?

[Reverend Zombie]

quantum_mechani said:

Reverend Zombie said:
I'm going to bow out, so Niefelheim is free.

I still just can't buy into the CB mod's changes.

I recall you played with dom2 CB, what has changed so much from then?



My experience with CB under Dom 2 is actually part of what has turned me off of playing with the mod now.

In CB Dom 2, I did not like having to start a game to see the changes the mod has made, and I definitely do not have time for it now. Complete documentation would help here.

Also, if CB's philosophy was purely "no nerfing good stuff, only buffing bad stuff," I'd be MUCH more apt play with it. While it has gone more in that direction with the latest version, there are still cost increases to nationals, etc.

I just don't play the game enough to know optimal strategies for vanilla Dom 3, let alone how to adjust my play to take into account the CB changes. (This wouldn't be as much of an issue if the changes were buffs only.)

[quantum_mechani]

I don't think the current CB has really any more nerfs than the dom2 version. As I've stated before, the goal is to use boosts as much as is possible, and in fact 99% of changes fall into that category. I'll agree the documentation could use improvement, the main reason it kept pace better in dom2 was Edi's assistance.

In any case case, it would certainly not be hard documentation wise to make a 'redlist' of the nerf changes, given they do make up such a tiny percentage of the tweaks, if people would find that helpful.

[Reverend Zombie]

quantum_mechani said:
In any case case, it would certainly not be hard documentation wise to make a 'redlist' of the nerf changes, given they do make up such a tiny percentage of the tweaks, if people would find that helpful.



Even a list of nations with no nerfs to nationals would be super-cool.

[quantum_mechani]

That's even easier, everyone but Lanka, ME ermor, Mictlan,
Niefelhiem, and LE Agartha. And the Niefelhiem/Mictlan ones are very minor.

[Reverend Zombie]

Cool, count me back in then, but I'll need to think about which nation...

[Dimaz]

I'd like to take C'tis.

[Ylvali]

I would like to play Yomi.

[Sir_Dr_D]

This game is starting to fill up, awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I am planning to start up the game on Tuesday, and will close registration at the end of Saturday.

I am planning to use a victory point, victory. With each capital worth one victory point. A person will need to capture 4 capitals to win. COmments? Since I did not specify starting conditions in the first post, it is up for voting.

[archaeolept]

quantum_mechani said:
That's even easier, everyone but Lanka, ME ermor, Mictlan,
Niefelhiem, and LE Agartha. And the Niefelhiem/Mictlan ones are very minor.

Shinuyama's little goblins are nerfed, what?

[Kuritza]

I'll sign up as Marverni.

[quantum_mechani]

archaeolept said:

quantum_mechani said:
That's even easier, everyone but Lanka, ME ermor, Mictlan,
Niefelhiem, and LE Agartha. And the Niefelhiem/Mictlan ones are very minor.

Shinuyama's little goblins are nerfed, what?

I didn't include them on the list because they were part of an across the board minor nerf to bows. And note that all the other the other little goblin troops were boosted.

[archaeolept]

their already very poor morale has been lowered as well (to 7) - as well as for the bandit archers. giving a minor boost to completely useless troops while nerfing the pretty well only worthwhile cheap buys does not balance out. Just saying, your list is incomplete, and I'd have to wonder how many other nations are missing from it.

[Reverend Zombie]

Sauromatia, please.

[quantum_mechani]

archaeolept said:
their already very poor morale has been lowered as well (to 7) - as well as for the bandit archers. giving a minor boost to completely useless troops while nerfing the pretty well only worthwhile cheap buys does not balance out. Just saying, your list is incomplete, and I'd have to wonder how many other nations are missing from it.

Yeah, you are probably right, those were just the nations that jumped to mind, probably because the ones I mentioned were the only ones nerfed for inter-nation balance. Any other nerfs are very minor ones simply to promote a variety of troops being built for each nation, and in almost all such cases I think the nation as a whole remains stronger than in base game.

[AlgaeNymph]

What name would we upload our pretenders under?

[Krec]

i would like to join, may i be the giants please

[Sir_Dr_D]

Sign up is now closed, and the game will have 11 players.I am determining a good map to use right now. Suggestions are welomce for an approximatly 165 province map, that is balanced for multiplayer.

[Sir_Dr_D]

We will use Twan's version of the Urraparrand map. It can be found here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=576920&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

The Urraparrand maps seem fairly balanced, with terain types equally dispersed through out the map. Twan's edition should allow for more freedom of movement.


Lets try to get the pretenders in by Wednesday. Llamabeast can you start us up.

[Kuritza]

Just where to upload my pretender?

[Zeldor]

Sir_Dr_D:

Just make sure starting locations are hand picked. I made my first MP newbie game on unmodified Uraparrand and starting positions were extremely unfair. Especially with that 1 isolated island that should not exist at all.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Thanks for the warning Zeldor. In the test games I ran there wasn't any problems with start locations, but I will check the map file out.

For upload instructions:

Send an email to 'pretenders' at 'llamaserver.net. (I split up the email address there so search engines cannot find it.)In the email include 'balance' in the subject line, and have your pretender file attached. Also on the llamaserver it is preferred if your pretender does not have a password.

[Zolharm]

I'd like to take Lanka.

[Ylvali]

I read there will be an update (bug fixes) of the CB mod this week. Do we wait for it? If we do we might have to resend pretenders, no? It might be worthwhile if the bugs are serious or exploitable...

Also, mod specifications should be only CB, as it includes worthy heroes.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Yes, we will wait until the update is out, and then start. But you will not need to resend pretenders as the version number on the mod will not change. If there are bug fixes after the game has started, we will still be able to patch the mod in the middle of the game.

[Reverend Zombie]

What's up with this game--still waiting on the CB fix?

[Jazzepi]

I'm going to go ahead and pull out of this game.

Jazzepi

[Sir_Dr_D]

We will start up the game as soon as all the pretenders are in. We are waiting on Krec who was going to play as Neiflheim. He sent me a message a day ago asking for instruction and I haven't heard from him since. If we don't hear from him in a day we will start it up.

Since Jazzepi dropped out there is room for someone else to sign up. You need to get the pretender up quick though.

[Ylvali]

So... Updates are ready then?

[Sir_Dr_D]

Yes they are. I beeive you you just download the latest atatchment that is at teh startingpost of the mod.

[Ylvali]

Done, ready to go.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I will ask llamabeast to get the going now.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It will take llamabeast at least another game before he can get the game going.

[Reverend Zombie]

Sir_Dr_D said:
It will take llamabeast at least another game before he can get the game going.



Another game to end?

[IndyPendant]

I suspect typo. Probably meant day/week/year. (Well, probably not year...; )

[Sir_Dr_D]

Yeah, sorry I meant day.

It should be started sometime soon.

[llamabeast]

Wow, apparently this has taken me 4 days to start! Many apologies everyone. I hope you all enjoy the game.

[Ylvali]

I have put myself in a hopeless situation I´m afraid. I will have to turn myself AI. Sorry bout this and enjoy the game everyone.

[IndyPendant]

The game has been playing for 5 turns! What could possibly be hopeless this early? --Unless you mean that Real Life (tm) is interfering with gaming...

[IndyPendant]

ARGH! I'm about to stale out because I can't access my hotmail. Turn's done, I just can't send it! Very frustrating.

Send Sir_Dr_D a PM...

[Sir_Dr_D]

I stalled the game for you.

[IndyPendant]

Heh. "Stalled". Read that and was startled for a moment. ; )

Thanks, Sir_Dr_D. Hotmail's up and running again. Turn's been sent; the next one should be arriving any minute now.

[Dimaz]

I'll be away from 10 to 14 but I have a friend who will be able to replace me. Is it possible to redirect my turns to him during that period?

[Sir_Dr_D]

PM the persons email address, and I will be able to set that up.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I was having computer problems so I stalled the current turn timer.

In the first post I said I would do a 48 schedule timer after the first 10 turns. Turns seem to small enough right now that , that is not needed. But if one person says they would like that schedule who will move to that, since that was what was advertised.

[Dimaz]

Actually I'd like to move to new schedule at least for the next week, so I'll make more turns by myself and lessen the burden on my friend (I pass 2 parties to him). And, btw, if someone wants to make diplomacy with Ctis this week, use in-game messages (I won't be able to read PM).
Sir_Dr_D, I think turn 18 will be last from me, following turns should go to the address I PM'd you, until next Saturday.

[Kuritza]

Marverni attacked Tien Chi, but having won one battle, druids found out that their territories have been claimed by the beastmen of Pangaea. Long and tedios attrition war will surely be the end Marverni.

In other words, centaur guerillas taking over your sources of income are more than a serious treat by itself, and whilst having my whole army fighting Tien Chi, I cant do anything to defend myself. Marverni going AI.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Thank you for playing Kuritza.

You did get a bit of bad luck being double teamed like that, but that was coincidence. I had no idea you were fighting Tien Chi at the time. Good luck in your next game.

You can be be assured that your men will be treated very well by Pangea. In fact we are having a party today, and your men are invited. Lots of dancning and music.You will soon find that any ridicuous thoughts such as hard work, will soon be erased from your mind. Pangaea wants nothing but eternal joy for all.

[IndyPendant]

Just out of curiousity, is this game's Quickhost turned off deliberately? Did I miss a post explaining things? ; ) Everyone has submitted their turns...

[Dimaz]

Ok, I'm back already, so we can move to old schedule if you like.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I will need your email address, to send the turns back to you.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The game is now at 24 hour scheule again. As soon as somone want 48 hours we will move it too that.

And sorry, I meant to send out a message about the Quickhost as soon as I changed that setting. I turned Quickhost off, but you are free to vote on the issue. I prefer quick host off because it allows the game to run at a predictable schedule.

[IndyPendant]

Mictlan is looking for magic items! We can pay in gems (all but earth and death), coin, or blood slaves. We seek:

--2 Dwarven Hammers
--Earth Boots
--Winged Helmet
--Bag of Winds
--Crystal Coin
--Skull Staff

PM me if you are able and willing to trade. We are strong believers in the win-win deal, and I am sure we can come to a reasonable agreement that is beneficial to each of us.

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D
Can you change the hosting time to host 15-20 minutes earlier? Currently the turn comes exactly the same time I should go to work, as a result I come to work later then I should http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D
I didn't receive turn 35. Maybe changing e-mail will help here, I sent you another e-mail in PM. Anyway, please delay the game until the problem is solved, or at least for next 24 hours. I hope my last turn was received by the server, it's not very funny to get staled in current game situation.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Dimaz, sorry about the delay, but I have now changed your email address, and delayed the timer by 24 hours.

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D, thanks. New e-mail works, we can continue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Hadrian_II]

Aww, sauro is way to poisonous to fight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif, but i still brought 2 huge defeats to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

@rev zombie: are u using bogus script, or how where you able to make your archers shoot my mages?

[Reverend Zombie]

Hadrian_II said:
@rev zombie: are u using bogus script



Nope.

[Hadrian_II]

Reverend Zombie said:

Hadrian_II said:
@rev zombie: are u using bogus script



Nope.



Oww the targeting AI hates me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Dimaz]

I received 2 turns this time, 37 and 38, 37 is ordinary, 38 with stale. Server says that current turn is 37, I assume turn 38 is some sort of bug?

[Hadrian_II]

I played just turn 37 and hope everything will sort itself out.

[Sir_Dr_D]

There was problems with the llamaserver yesterday. It seems that 2 turns were just hosted in a row. I did not receive turn 36. It seems everyone staled on turn 36. As long as we are all in the same boat it is okay.

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D said:
There was problems with the llamaserver yesterday. It seems that 2 turns were just hosted in a row. I did not receive turn 36. It seems everyone staled on turn 36. As long as we are all in the same boat it is okay.


Hm, strange. For me it seems you moved on every turn and I hadn't any stales either, except for buggy turn 38, but the server accepts only 2h for turn 37, so I guess no stales actually happened.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I figured that out after. It took me a while to find the right turn.

Anyway, I now know what the AI is doing next, so I know where to build my PD for the next turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D
Heh, me too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But maybe there is some randomness here...

[Dimaz]

Great. Now, it seems, everything went COMPLETELY wrong. I just received turn 39 with TWO stales in a row. So funny.

[IndyPendant]

Yep. I did as well. I'm going to PM llamabeast with the details; it seems to me we will have to suffer a rollback; he'll have to recompile our Turn 36 orders and we'll get Turn 37 again.

[llamabeast]

Okay, wow, crazy stuff!

Thanks for letting me know IndyPendant, I had missed this completely.

Basically I think Dominions tried to host the turn but for some reason it failed to work properly, I don't know why. The LlamaServer doesn't expect that so it all went crazy and out of synch - I haven't bothered to work out the details, but basically the LlamaServer only knows what turn it is by keeping count of hostings, so if it gets out of synch with the real turn number Bad Things Happen.

I've rolled back to a Turn 37 I found which appears to be all fine, and got the LlamaServer to resend turns to all of you. Before you look at your turns, DELETE ANY 2H FILES IN YOUR BALANCE DIRECTORY. Otherwise confusion may result.

Okay, hopefully all will be well from here, let me know if there are any problems.

[llamabeast]

PS I've added a 24h delay. And apologies for the all-caps shouting above. It makes me cringe just to look at it.

[AlgaeNymph]

The e-mail says I've got turn 38, but the game says it's #39...

[llamabeast]

This is the file from yesterday's resend right, Drya?

[IndyPendant]

My file seems to be working fine...did you use the most recent file sent, DryaUnda? It would have been just before llamabeast's post above, that starts with "Okay, wow, crazy stuff!"

[IndyPendant]

Wow, quiet group. This thread was on page 2!

Sir_Dr_D, I am going away on a business trip for the next week. I will have internet access, but I most likely won't have it reliably or enjoy extended periods of free time.

Could we go on a 72-hour schedule just for the next three turns? I'll let you know when I have returned.

Thanks,

IndyPendant.

[IndyPendant]

I would like to keep the 72-hour time frame for this turn (43), but next turn (44) we can go back to 48 hours if no one objects. And thanks. ; )

[Sir_Dr_D]

I will set the timer back to normal after 43 then.

[IndyPendant]

Definitely a quiet game.

Anyone else get what looks to be a glitched-up turn?

[Dimaz]

It seems that in this turn I took the last VP and Tien Chi sieged his old capital with one of my VPs so some bug occured. Anyway, thanks for the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I don't know, should I write some AAR or so?

[IndyPendant]

Are you sure? I'm counting your provinces and I see only 3 VP provinces. Also, T'ien Ch'i and C'tis seem to be the only players on the graphs, even though we're all still on the maps. I dunno, this isn't like any 'win' I've seen before. Seems buggy to me.

Or am I missing a province? Could you give me the numbers of the four VP provinces C'tis now owns?

[Dimaz]

Of course. 9, 12, 21 and 97 (taken this turn).

[IndyPendant]

Well well, there they are. I missed 97, Sauro green on C'tis green standards. Congratulations then!

And dammit, why couldn't you have waited one more turn? I just finished summoning the fourth Ice Devil and Demon Lord, and I wanted to see their stats! But apparently when you win, the armies are wiped out. Bah! ; )

Heh. I was hoping the rest of you would keep each other busy enough while I built up an unstoppable army of SCs and hordes of sacred troops, and burst out upon you all. Apparently, I waited too long...

(I had all the Ice Devils, Arch Devils, Heliophagi, Demon Lords, both Fire Elementals, three GoR'd Ettins, four hundred beast bats, over a hundred devils, I was generating well over two hundred blood slaves a turn...I was having tons of fun playing with dolls in my little sandbox! ; )

Ah well. Good game. I had fun, even though it was a wierd one for me. I didn't fight a so much as a single battle with another player! (Well, not including eliminating some militia chaff I was 'lucky' enough to win in a random event...)

[quantum_mechani]

This game is over? Anyone have any comments or observations on using CB for it?

[Dimaz]

quantum_mechani, no ethereal behemots this time. Otherwise, C'tis feels the same.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Good game Dimaz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It still would have been interesting to continue to battle between us, but you deffintaly earned this victory.
If my mages haad cast that carrion regeneration spell on my SC's like the were supposed to , I would have won that battle for Tien-chi. :p

I like games with victory conditions. They don't run on forever. 1st one to get 4 captials works well I think.

Can't quite comment on any balance aspects, as I have never played Pangaea without the balnce mod before. I can say that every unit though seemed worth purchasing, and the game was a lot of fun. I don't have much comments on Carrion woods, because I had very little chance to use the carrion.

[IndyPendant]

Since I never fought a battle, I can't really comment on the game's balance either, sorry...

I would like to know though: what was happening around me? I couldn't really get very many scouts out. It really was a bit of a sandbox game for me...

[Sir_Dr_D]

I can add though that even with CB, luck is not balanced. People are better off taking order. There is likely not much more that can be done about that.

[Dimaz]

Sir_Dr_D, I agree you had a chance to win the battle for TienChi, but I already had Poison golems which are very nice against mandragoras (they can't sleep) and researched Conj 9 the last turn, with Tartarians and GR. So, I think, your only chance was to ally with Mictlan and Sauro against me, so I decided to take VPs before it happened.