Scales bugs in Dom3.14

[vfb]

As Olive, Edi, and Zeldor noted in the bug thread, the scales bugs have not gone away in 3.14.

I've seen this now too.

I started a game with:
Order 3
Prod 3
Cold 3
Grow 3
Luck 3
Magic 3

On turn 1, those were my scales in the capitol.

Everything except Luck and Magic dropped on turn 2. Dominion is only 2 candles in my capitol.

As of turn 4, I'm back up to:
Order 1
Prod 1
Cold 1
Grow 1
Luck 3
Magic 3

I saw this in a few new games (started post-patch). The number of neighbors no longer seems to matter. I've got weird heat scales in non-capitol provinces too (but didn't site search them yet).

Is this now WAD? You lose scales in your capitol on turn 2 if you have weak dominion there? If so, it would make more sense for your scales in the capitol to start at zero, and slowly grow to your national scales. Rather than start at your national scales, bomb out on turn 2, and then slowly grow back.

[Zeldor]

vfb:

My problem is that my scales do not want to get to national level in provinces even with dominion str 9, despite being surrounded by own/neutral dominion, after having my own dominion there for like 30+ turns. And it looks like it was Order getting hardest to grow always [0-1 instead of 3]. But I haven't checked games started after 1.4 so maybe that are remnants of 1.2, though that is about 10 turns after patching already.

[vfb]

So, this looks just as mysterious as the old scales bug used to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. I've also got a couple games with Order 3 scales that were started in 3.10 and are now at 3.14, and the scales in my capitols are just fine.

If I start any new 3.14 games though, I think I may take neutral-luck or turmoil-luck until the mystery is solved! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Reay]

Yep I have the same thing happening in Fallacy as well which was started with 3.10 and then patched to 3.14 after a few turns.

My capital started with order 3 and went to order 2 and then order 1 after a few turns. It does not seem to want to go back up again even though I have dominion strength 6 there.

I can't remember seeing this behaviour before. Once I had order 3 it would stay there for most of the game as long as I had dominion there.

[vfb]

Huh, Fallacy is one of the games where I don't have the problem. How many provinces border your capitol, if that's not double-secret-probation info?

In some ways the scales problem seems to have gotten worse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

[Xietor]

In fallacy I took dom 6, and only had 1 candle in my capital for the 1st 3 turns or so. had to leave my prophet there to preach to get dominion.

Though my capital is very close to another players(thanks velusion) who has dom 9). So it may be a bug or not.

[Reay]

My capital only has 5 neighbours.

Funnily enough the rest of my scales are exactly the same as what I chose at the start of the game. It was just the order that slowly reduced over the period of 18 turns.

It might not be a bug but its costing me lots of gold every turn.

[Dedas]

I wish this bug could be gone once and for all. I can't think of anything more annoying in a MP game than to have for example order disappear when you also took misfortune 2. Grr.

[Meglobob]

Yes the scales bug is alive and well. It however seems to be operating differently from before.

It does not seem to hit all good scales as before but does delight in turning order 3 to order 0-1 even with 9 or 10 dominion.

[Kristoffer O]

Fascinating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zeldor]

I didn't expect that comment coming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Don_Seba]

Dedas said:
I can't think of anything more annoying in a MP game than to have for example order disappear when you also took misfortune 2.



Easy. Having order and nation specific temperature scales disappear when you took misfortune 3.

I wish this bug would eventually get caught. Half of the fans appear to be computer professionals. Illwinter should invite them to Sweden to look at the code, and once they solve the problem, get them drunk enough so that they do not remember anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Kristoffer O]

If they got that drunk they wouldn't remember that there is a scale bug, and everything would be fine. So, if you come across a scale bug, just take a couple of beers and the bug will be fixed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dedas]

But then it will be even worse the next day!

[Tichy]

Hair of the Scales Bug, anyone?

[Edi]

I wonder what sort of mutagenic potion ingredient we get from that beast when we finally slay it...

Yes, too much playing Witcher, I know... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Meglobob said:

It does not seem to hit all good scales as before but does delight in turning order 3 to order 0-1 even with 9 or 10 dominion.

Obviously it's a balance feature to take those order-junky power gamers down a peg. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Meglobob]

quantum_mechani said:

Meglobob said:

It does not seem to hit all good scales as before but does delight in turning order 3 to order 0-1 even with 9 or 10 dominion.

Obviously it's a balance feature to take those order-junky power gamers down a peg. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Ha ha, got to say I am happy with my choice of taking order 3 luck 3 now in a MP game, rather than order 3 misfortune 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Those poor suckers who took order 3 misfortune 2-3 are going to have a entertaining early game, ha ha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Btw, I deceided to be clever and take turmoil 1 misfortune 2 in another MP I am in, bad idea, never again. I have had 7 labs destroyed (no kidding), my capital lab has burned down 4 times, 3 in other castles.

I blame those clumsy old fire mages... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aezeal]

The witcher rocks though.. good story it had... nice combat too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

but my sign witcher that just cast igni with a swallow and a whatever-gives-magic-regen-potion foudn combat a little bit too easy even on the hardest mode.

[Velusion]

I just created a whole swath of sample games using high scale LA Pythium pretender. The majority of these games exhibited the scale bug on almost every map I tried.

It seems to just be getting worse...

edit: If I read the bug list description correctly this is caused by corrupted .map files. How can we fix these map files and how do the get corrupted?

[Velusion]

Edit to the above:

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the map files... even ones that come with the game (e.g. Aran) cause this bug to happen %100 time for me now.

Sorta puts a crimp on the game eh?

[sector24]

It's an elaborate conspiracy to nerf Order with respect to the other scales. Viva turmoil!

P.S. I've never had the scale bug, not even in 3.14. Could it be related to a very common mod? (I play vanilla)

[vfb]

Mods do not seem to make a difference.

The original bug had two causes:

1) If a province had more than 6 neighbors, and there was less than one good candle both in neighbor #1 and neighbor #7 (in map file neighbor order), then an error caused positive scales to evaporate from the province.

2) Creating a new game without first exiting the dom3 application did not clear the internal table containing neighbor information. The new neighbor province numbers were instead written into the array of neighbors for each province, truncated with a '0' indicating no more neighbors. But the dom spread code in (1) looked at neighbor #7 without checking for '0' termination, so provinces with less than 7 neighbors could also experience the scales bug, if you had corrupted the neighbors table by starting a new game without exiting the app first. The neighbors table contained province numbers past '0', from the previous game's map.


The new scales code in 3.14 behaves differently, and it appears the symptoms are:

- Order gets toasted in your provinces
- Prod and Growth get whacked too, but not as bad as Order
- Heat-Cold does some weird stuff sometimes too
- Luck and Magic are usually okay

I think I've seen worse symptoms in provinces with many neighbors. The 3.10 code appeared to be trying to 'average down' scale effects based on the scales in the neighbors, and the 3.14 code is probably trying to do something similar.

In my new 3.14 games, I'm just refusing to take Misfortune. I'm either going:

Turmoil-3 Luck-3, pray for 3K gold, and don't squander it.

Order-3 Luck-0, and hope my scales survive the bugs. If they don't, then at least I'm still 50-50 on events being good or bad.

Order-3 Luck-3, which actually still has a pretty good number of random events, which are nearly all good, even if you don't lose your Order. Expensive, but manageable with a D6 POD.

[Nikolai]

I _all_ three my current games, I am experiencing scales bugs. I'm order 3 misfortune 3 player, so you can imagine the mess. It's not only home province. Provinces that I took since turn 5 (now turn 48) have lost Order 3, Cold 3, and Growth 3, and kept Misfortune 3 and Drain 2. In that game I am playing Niefel. Great joy!

My bet is developers replaced bug with feature. Now it is not scale bug, now it is mighty balancing algorithm - unless you have full dominions in all neighbors, your border province gets affected... and then it affects it neighbors, and yada, yada, yada.

I wish old days back.

[archaeolept]

hmm, i've never experience scale bugs before, or such that i noticed, but i just ran a couple LA Pyth Dom 10 Order/prod 3 misfortune 2... and both times, starting the second turn, order and prod were slightly lowered. In one, prod wend down 1 then back up; in the other prod went down 1 and stayed there at 2. Order in each went down 1 or 2, but in the second game got back up to 3 before turn 10... though production is still at 2

so the current bug seems more prevalent than the previous, though perhaps not as devastating :wtf:

3rd test: order/prod went to 1/1 on turn two. slowly got back up to 3/3 by turn 8 ... the scales seem to improve when all my cap's neighbours have my dominion.

4th: tried w/ order 3 sloth 2... order went to 2 on turn 2; back to 3 by turn 6

[Zeldor]

It seems that mainly Order is affected [productivity may be too, but not many people take it] when not all neighbours of that province [be it capitol or not] do not have your own dominion [it seems that neutral one triggers it too] and they start to get to normal when you convert everything around. Pretty annoying.

[Velusion]

In all the games I tested with production +3, order +3 on the second turn my order got nuked down to 1 and my production bonus vanished never to return to +3 in 10+ turns.

The "elusive" scale bug is now an "in-your-face-every-game" scale bug...

[Tuidjy]

> so the current bug seems more prevalent than the previous, though perhaps not
> as devastating

How devastating it is depends mostly on your playing style. Lately I play with
a group of real life friends (Nikolai is one of us) and we blitz through games
in a weekend. I personally think that this is the greatest balance change
since Dominions II.

It does not look like a bug anymore. As far as I can tell, the scales in a
province depend on the scales of all neighbors, no ifs or buts. This has a
devastating effect on the way I play. I always take Order 3, Growth, and
Misfortune 3. I usually play with a weak dominion, which I boost in selected
provinces with priests and teleistic animates. Even in games I end up winning,
my dominion usually trails other players, as I mostly keep a strong one only in
provinces that I consider important.

With the new rebalancing, this means that my scales will be horrible across the
board, as I will never have most of my neighbors with my dominion. All players
will be affected at the border, and the effect easily propagates toward the core
of the empire.

I have finished 3 games so far with these new rules, and the effects are
somewhat mitigated by the fact that nearly all of us play with weak dominions
and extreme scales. I am certainly going to reconsider my scales - what used to
work quite well with my style of play is a recipe for disaster now.

But I certainly feel for those (Hi, uncle!) who are playing in long MP games on
this forum, and will have to suffer the effects under 3.14.

[Nikolai]

It isn't that bad. I do not always play like like. Only in DangerPudding it's REALLY bad, because I am spread out, and apart from capital, I probably have not single province with just my dominion around. And of course, with propagtation of effect, capital IN WINTER has cold + 1... So now I am effectively playing with my misfortune, with Sauromatia and Pangaea's Turmoil, with Yomi's death, and with wrong temperature for Neifelheim. Giants are screwed.

I wish Illwinter had warned us.

PS Praise the Pantocrator, R'lyeh's dominion is pretty much my own. Order junkies of the world, unite!

[Meglobob]

I think its a bug that hopefully will be corrected in the next patch.

Until it is, not alot of point taking Order 2-3, Prod 2-3 or misfortune 2-3, especially with low dominion of 4-5.

[Velusion]

Meglobob said:
I think its a bug that hopefully will be corrected in the next patch.

Until it is, not alot of point taking Order 2-3, Prod 2-3 or misfortune 2-3, especially with low dominion of 4-5.



Agreed. It's pretty bad.

[Edi]

Actually, right now it looks like it's functioning like a feature instead of a bug, but whether the feature is desirable in quite this drastic a form is another question entirely.

[Endoperez]

I agree with Edi. Something along these lines could be good, but it shouldn't affect early game as badly as it currently does.

[Velusion]

Endoperez said:
I agree with Edi. Something along these lines could be good, but it shouldn't affect early game as badly as it currently does.



I could see the argument if the death, magic and luck scales were affected - but it doesn't look like they are.

It now really hurts some nations that need the bonus resources early to stay competitive and will help nations that don't need a lot of resources.

[Jazzepi]

Velusion said:

Endoperez said:
I agree with Edi. Something along these lines could be good, but it shouldn't affect early game as badly as it currently does.



I could see the argument if the death, magic and luck scales were affected - but it doesn't look like they are.

It now really hurts some nations that need the bonus resources early to stay competitive and will help nations that don't need a lot of resources.



I'm about to play MA Ulm in Tigercat. This whole scale thing makes me want to not bother.

Jazzepi

[Foodstamp]

Just curious, are you guys raising your taxes and patrolling on turn one? I noticed in my games that raising taxes to gain extra gold at the beginning seems to cause it to happen. If this has been mentioned somewhere else in the thread, I apologize.

[Zeldor]

Jazzepi:

I had Order 0 isntead of 3 as MA Ulm in province with Dom 8. Massive temple building improved it recently.

[Nikolai]

It's also very bad for Cold/Hot nations. I think we need patch ASAP. Balancing as feature, maybe later. But early effect is murder to many, many players - temperature nations, heavy ressource nations, growth builds, misfirtune builds. The late effect is murder on anyone with non-awe dominion and good scales.

Simple patch next week would rejoyce me, for sure.

On the other hand, it has become a game of 'Dominions' indeed. Great news for LA Mictlan bless rushers, for example.

Zeldor: temples building not possible until later in game, and will not help on borders, where your neighbor is building/preaching too. You will both have strong dominion, and you will both have wrong scales.

Foodstamp: it seems to happen always. If developers REALLY made scales average on neighbors, early capital will always have weak good scales.

[Velusion]

Foodstamp said:
Just curious, are you guys raising your taxes and patrolling on turn one? I noticed in my games that raising taxes to gain extra gold at the beginning seems to cause it to happen. If this has been mentioned somewhere else in the thread, I apologize.



Nope, I don't raise/patrol on the first turn. Can't be that.

[Velusion]

On the other hand, it has become a game of 'Dominions' indeed. Great news for LA Mictlan bless rushers, for example.



LA Ermor is boosted by this as well.

[Edi]

The problem is that we have gotten used to the early, broken mechanics that were caused by the neighbor issue and geotable corruption. It may well be that the current way the feature works is how it is supposed to work, but we don't know for sure. This particular thing had survived all the way from Dominions PPP, or from whatever point it was introduced and nobody has had experience with the current setup prior to 3.14.

Therefore it is not a given that it will be easy to curtail this effect quickly. I'm sure IW will take a serious look at it, but this may take some time. In the meanwhile we're going to have to live with it. I for one am glad the scales bug in its original form is gone. This is a whole different ball game.

[Zeldor]

Edi:

If neighbours had to affect scale they would affect all of them, not order and prod. So it is surely not WAD.

[Jazzepi]

Zeldor said:
Jazzepi:

I had Order 0 isntead of 3 as MA Ulm in province with Dom 8. Massive temple building improved it recently.



My build involves high Dom and O3. I don't think it's possible to play MA Ulm effectively with abusing their absurdly inexpensive (gold-wise) troops by overloading your gold income.

I might be okay just because of the high dom. We'll see, I guess, but I did notice this scale bug in the single player testing I was doing =\

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Honestly, out of all the bugs in the game, this is the only one I care about being fixed D:

I also think this version of the scales bug is much worse than the original. In the original your scales would come back, eventually.

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

Zeldor said:
Edi:

If neighbours had to affect scale they would affect all of them, not order and prod. So it is surely not WAD.



Agreed.

And why, on turn 1, would it show the "correct" scales only to have them drop\disappear on turn 2?

[Edi]

True. It is not good the way it is now, but whether it can be quickly fixed is another matter.

Funny thing is that I just have a game going with Kaljamaha where he plays LA Pythium and I play Arco. I have an imprisoned nataraja with no magic at all, Dominion 7 and nearly all scales maxed out. O2, P3, C/H 0, G2, L3, M3. And it hasn't hit me yet, despite not having dominion in all neighboring provinces for a while. Conversely, Kaljamaha's Pythium had all of its scales wiped out right off the bat and there was no difference as such in his situation.

So to some degree this issue is arbitrary, but what causes it to behave the way it does is up in the air. It's possible that if each type of scale increase/decrease due to dominion trying to push them in the direction of the pretender is handled separately (which I would expect), then it may be something different in the way order, production and growth are checked. If not, then it's going to be something esoteric. We may or may not learn more after Johan takes a good look at this thread, depending on whether he chooses to make any public statements here or in the beta group.

I know this issue is aggravating, but right now the only thing I can counsel is patience. Making too much hay of it right now or turning shrill is NOT going to help and can only have a detrimental effect.

[vfb]

Velusion said:

Zeldor said:
Edi:

If neighbours had to affect scale they would affect all of them, not order and prod. So it is surely not WAD.



Agreed.

And why, on turn 1, would it show the "correct" scales only to have them drop\disappear on turn 2?



Yes, if this is by design, then all the scales in the home province should start at zero, and grow towards the player scales. This would still be a bit of an order nerf, since the effect of luck doesn't kick in until you get a few more provinces anyway.

The way it's implemented now is just weird, with full scales for just the first month, and then they vanish. (Except for luck and magic, which seem totally unaffected.)

[Reay]

Yes, I have now got dominion in all provinces surrounding my capital and my order scales are going back up again.

Also my high dominion provinces which are surrounded by provinces with my dominion tend to have order 3. The ones on the edges of my dominion have 0-2 order.

I guess for now we will have to build more temples.

[Lingchih]

I haven't noticed it yet. But then, I always play with a high dominion.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I haven't tested it enough to be sure, but it seems when when I start a new game without closing down dominions first the scale bug occurs. But if I close down the program,reopen it, and then start the game things seem to be fine.

[Endoperez]

That was one of the symptoms of the old bug AFAIK. I think I'll have to test it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Blah.

[Endoperez]

First, The Scale Bug (TSB) also appears after restarting Dominions and creating a new game. It isn't restricted to only appearing after creating/playing multiple games in one sitting. TSB brings your scales down, and they usually stay down until the bug disappears.

Second, TSB disappears after all neighbouring provinces are under your dominion. After that point, your scales will increase the normal way, which can be slow. However, scales can go down if you ended the turn without your dominion in all neighbouring provinces. If you open your turn, see that scales went down, and have dominion in all neighbours, it's probably due to dominion spreading to the last province that turn.

Temperature varies with seasons. A province can go from neutral to Heat 3 in one turn (but that only happened once in my tests), so even your capital's temperature may vary. I don't if friendly dominion weakens the effect of seasons, but my tests were often made with rather low dominion in the capital. If Cold scale disappears in early game, it may be due to random chance. If Heat scale disappears, it's probably due to TSB.

TSB can affect Growth and Luck. I think the scale drain happens in order, so first you lose your Order, Then Production, etc etc. When I had just Growth, Luck and Magic, I first lost some Growth, then all; then some Luck.

I think dominion can increase the scales even when the capital is still affected by TSB. However, the chance of increase isn't that good, so it might take several (4-5 wasn't rare) turns after TSB is negated before you're back to full scales.

[Sir_Dr_D]

If thats the way that it works Endoperez then it sounds like a deliberate feature. Whether or not it is a feature that imbalances things, I don't know.
- It might now balance dominion with the other pretender points, or it may be unfairly forcing everyone to take high dominion.
- Water nations on maps like Cradle will be hit hit the hardets, but hopefully land nations will now respect a water nations right to have the land provinces surrounding their capital.
- This will now make stealthy priests more valuable, as they can now lower the enemies dominion in a province beside the enemies captial, and ruin the enemies scales. (But id this is a bug and not a "feature", this should be considered an exploit )
- This will prevent order rushes at the beginning of the game, where with a high income, production, and by buying mercenaries you can quickly expand. This may encourage people to take awake pretenders, with blesses, but bad scales even more.

Mostly I just want to khow how the bug behaves, so i can learn how to control it, and adjust my strategies.

[vfb]

Sir_Dr_D said:
If thats the way that it works Endoperez then it sounds like a deliberate feature. Whether or not it is a feature that imbalances things, I don't know.
- It might now balance dominion with the other pretender points, or it may be unfairly forcing everyone to take high dominion.
- Water nations on maps like Cradle will be hit hit the hardets, but hopefully land nations will now respect a water nations right to have the land provinces surrounding their capital.
...




You don't need to own the province neighbors. You need your dominion in the province neighbors.

Also, if this is by design, then I think all capitols should start with neutral scales in turn 1.

[thejeff]

Also if it's by design it really should, thematically speaking , affect all scales, good and bad, equally.

Especially when not all the bad scales are bad for all nations. Temperature scales are the obvious ones, but if Pans can start spawning Maeneads in high Turmoil at once and their enemy can't afford troops since he lost his Order, for example.

And why not Luck and Magic? Sounds like somethings being checked from the top of the list. Order is most likely to be affected and Magic the least?

[Nikolai]

I know I am never playing with Dominion under nine anymore. I hate new 'feature'. It removes many builds, it hurts low/high temperature nations...

Dominion already propagated. Neighbor province dominion already affected _dominion_ in capital. Why should scales be affected too?

I can see for temperature, but if my people in border province strongly believe in my Pretender's ideals, like discipline and hard work, why should they care that Pangaeans across border spend their time partying? It's one thing being penalized for losing dominion battle in your own lands. It's another for scales to spread across borders no matter what.

[Kristoffer O]

The scale spread bug is fixed.

It was an entirely new bug introduced with the 3.14 feature of scale spreading dominions (similar to heat/cold spreading dominions).

We have introduced the possibility to have your order/turmoil, death/growth spread outside your dominion just like the niefel/abysian dominions spread cold/heat. IIRC no nation has these features yet, but it might be possible to mod already.

Possible candidates are Pangaea turmoil and Ermor death.

[Velusion]

Kristoffer O said:
The scale spread bug is fixed.

It was an entirely new bug introduced with the 3.14 feature of scale spreading dominions (similar to heat/cold spreading dominions).

We have introduced the possibility to have your order/turmoil, death/growth spread outside your dominion just like the niefel/abysian dominions spread cold/heat. IIRC no nation has these features yet, but it might be possible to mod already.

Possible candidates are Pangaea turmoil and Ermor death.



Sweet. I assume it will be available with the next patch?

[Zeldor]

I would like to see patch released that week even if it had only that thing fixed.

[Nikolai]

> I would like to see patch released that week even if it had only that thing fixed.

Seconded! This 'feature' is destroying me in the games I started with my standard dominion of five.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Thanks Kristoffer. I wasn't expecting you guys to fix this bug that fast. Please release the patch for this as soon as possible.

[Dedas]

Thirded! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Naah, I'd rather that some more progress happened before the patch comes out. There's been lots of bug-delving after this thread was started, annoyingly so. I've had to test more boring things this week than in more than a year! Besides, there's all kind of nifty developments coming around...


14th feb
* New militia events (mostly for uw nations).
* Old militia event made rare.
11th feb
* Scale spread bug fixed.
9th feb
* Late abysia slayercult.
* Late abysia hero.
* Late abysia anathemants altered.
* Warbred.


To borrow Dwarf Fortress terminology, I'd like to see "Abysia Arc", "Army Event Arc" and "Stealth Re-evaluation Arc" properly finished before any new patch comes our way. Also, bugfixes.

[Jazzepi]

I really think this scales bug needs an emergency patch. It's really bad for nations that depends on their scales in the very beginning, like MA Ulm.

Jazzepi

[Endoperez]

Check out the latest, rather surprising developments in the latest page of the bug discussion thread. MA Ulm might be better off by giving Illwinter time to finish what they've started...

[Don_Seba]

In 'Alexander' I chose order and growth scales. On turn 4 they vanished. On turn 5 I had the 'major plague' event. Now my capital's population is 13k, my temperature scales are gone... Not much of a point staying in the game.

I think that we need patch 3.15 NOW. I do not care about all the goodies that Ulm may be getting. Games are being ruined - games in which we have invested quite a bit of time.

[Dedas]

I'm in the same game and still recovering from the 3 simultaneous unrest events I got on the second turn when all my order disappeared.

[Kristoffer O]

> On turn 5 I had the 'major plague' event.

Thats harsh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I made the rare unrestricted plague event limited to turn 10+
The death 1 rare one 5+
The death 3 common one no turn limit

[calmon]

Kristoffer O said:
> On turn 5 I had the 'major plague' event.

Thats harsh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I made the rare unrestricted plague event limited to turn 10+
The death 1 rare one 5+
The death 3 common one no turn limit



But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.

[Don_Seba]

I have NEVER seen the major plague (half population dies) happen with a growth dominion before 3.14. In the few weeks since the patch, I have had it happen in two of the three games I am in, both times in my capitals. Yes, order/growth/misfortune used to be a gamble, but a smart one.

Now, it is suicide. Turn two, goodbye order. Turn three, farewell growth. Misfortune's there to stay, of course. And that's with dominion 7.

[Kristoffer O]

The rare plague is not affected by scale restricitons in any way. It is just rare, thus more common with misfortune and turmoil. It can happen in growth. But the other two plague events need death 1 or 3.

[Velusion]

calmon said:
But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.



Yea but when your order vanishes you have a much higher chance of getting the really bad events.

[calmon]

Velusion said:

calmon said:
But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.



Yea but when your order vanishes you have a much higher chance of getting the really bad events.



Sure, but this is a bug and should be fixed in the next patch.

[Velusion]

calmon said:

Velusion said:

calmon said:
But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.



Yea but when your order vanishes you have a much higher chance of getting the really bad events.



Sure, but this is a bug and should be fixed in the next patch.



Okaaaay.....

[Dedas]

Communication breakdown...

[Don_Seba]

> The rare plague is not affected by scale restricitons in any way. It is just rare, thus more common with
> misfortune and turmoil. It can happen in growth. But the other two plague events need death 1 or 3.

This is good to know. I guess that I am seeing it much more often because I have never lacked order in so many of my provinces before. And certainly not in my capital... I guess I was lucky enough to never get hit by the old scale bug.

[Nikolai]

calmon said:
Velusion said:
calmon said:But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.

Yea but when your order vanishes you have a much higher chance of getting the really bad events.

Sure, but this is a bug and should be fixed in the next patch.

Which is whole point! We want new patch released as soon as possible, without Ulm Arc, Whatever Arc, and without time spent on testing new content.

Because we are order/misfortune gamblers, or play cold races in games THAT ARE GOING ON.

[Kristoffer O]

JK is the patcher. And he is not home sick as I am. So my testing and adding of content has no bearing on the release of the patch.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
JK is the patcher. And he is not home sick as I am. So my testing and adding of content has no bearing on the release of the patch.



Thanks for all the new content being added!! If I ever have the time and funds to start creating a TBS game I would send a job offer your direction.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

Wow. MA Ulm being strengthened? Isn't this one of the signs of the Apocalypse?!

In case it is not clear, I'm one of those who think that if MA Ulm got every single unit from both non-undead themes in Dom2, buildable everywhere, it would not be too strong.

[Kristoffer O]

MA now have the Iron Angel to demonstrate to men that strength comes from yourself and from the steel you wield, not from faith nor magic.

[OmikronWarrior]

Well, I've come to one inevitable conclusion, patch 3.14 broke the game. I don't run any mods, but ever since patching to 3.14 every single SP game I've started has had the bug. It doesn't matter the map (random or premade), age, number of neighboring provinces, etc. I loose my positive scales, which are positively part of my playstyle.

In this light, it is necessary to go back the previous patch, though I'm in some MP games which have already patched. I just installed the game on a new PC as well, and don't have any of the previous patches saved. Whats my best course of action?

[IndyPendant]

Hrmf. It's all-but ruined one MP game for me. I took Order-3, Prod-3, and Growth-3. It's the Aran map, and I ended up on both of those long peninsulas, with Atlantis surrounding me.

We're in late-game now, and 3/4 of my provinces have at best 1 or 2 in any of those scales, even though I have at least 4 candles in each province.

It's been that way ever since we patched, but I couldn't figure out why. Now I guess I know.

*shrug* There's one game I've been playing for *SIX MONTHS* largely down the crapper. Grand.

Would have been dead already, I think, except my largest and most dangerous neighbour has been away on a trip for a while and keeps staling...; )

[Aezeal]

My new game turn 4.. drop in income, no order scale no more..

I need cash...

[chrispedersen]

Kris

I suspect you are using a nearest neighbor discrete averaging algorythmn to calculate new diminion.

However, the idea of dominion was the propagation of a positive dominion - which will significantly run counter to an averaging algorythmn.

I really believe that you should consider a positive dominion propagation model rather than an averaging one.
However, I believe there is a relatively easy tweak that would correct the issue.

Only consider nearest neighbors with a *negative* aka enemy dominion, when averaging on a positive dominion. This *handles* starting positions, as none of your surrounding positions will have a dominion for an initial period.

Now there is one more suggestion:
Prior to game setup, based on scale values and dominion, allow dominion to propagate throughout the map for something like 100 turns.. prior to turn 1.

This would allow the dominions to reach equilibrium - and would make scales propagate realistically throughout the map.

Chris

[Wick]

chrispedersen said:
This would allow the dominions to reach equilibrium - and would make scales propagate realistically throughout the map.



It would also eliminate Mictlan, removing one source of evil from the world!

[chrispedersen]

Wick said:

chrispedersen said:
This would allow the dominions to reach equilibrium - and would make scales propagate realistically throughout the map.



It would also eliminate Mictlan, removing one source of evil from the world!



Nay, for I was only speaking of scale propagation.
I would use a formula something like:

[Saulot]

I concur with the invisible formula, for it is beautiful in it's simplicity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

chrispedersen said:
Kris

I suspect you are using a nearest neighbor discrete averaging algorythmn to calculate new diminion.



Are you suggesting a fix for the bug, or a new feature? Because the bug has been fixed already, and the fix will appear with the next patch.

[B0rsuk]

Kristoffer O said:
MA now have the Iron Angel to demonstrate to men that strength comes from yourself and from the steel you wield, not from faith nor magic.



Wow ! And I thought Iron Angels was a new poptype. Some kind of biker gang.

[Edi]

It's a summons.

[Sombre]

-shakes head sadly-

No-one likes a summons. It's worse than jury duty.