Halt Heretic - Opinions

[coobe]

Hello ! Im so excited about the newest patch, especially the Halt Heretic ability. What do you think ? Is it a good counter against sacreds ?

[Dedas]

It's a bit too early yet to say, at least I haven't tested it yet. Although the +2 bonus that the Lord Guardian gets seems a bit weak, at least if it works like ordinary awe. The reason is that especially sacreds, among all units, have above normal morale.

[Zeldor]

I just started a game to check that angel, 1-2 hours and I will know a bit more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.S. Hmm... Black Bone captain arrive with Boots of Behemoth, he is size 2. Is it new equipment for him in patch?

[Dedas]

Weird. Probably a new bug introduced with the patch.

As for the bane of heresy effect; this one to be meant as a possible way for Ulm to withstand an early sacred rush. The Guardians are excellent at defending castles as well.

[Zeldor]

If regular units had it, then it would make sense. But Lord Guardian is military capitol only! commander, who will recruit it instead of mages?

[Dedas]

With Ulm you need to spam build castles or you will soon be toast, and as (now almost) all mages are non capital only you will have room for to recruit a LG.

Although the regular Guardians doesn't have Halt Heretic they do have Bane of Heresy.

[Twan]

The guardians don't have this ability, only the lord guardian (commander, you may recruit one per turn in the beginning, so you will have less than 10 of them -imagining you know you will be rushed and never build priests or mages- when an ennemy rusher arrives).

So I'm not really sure it's sufficient to stop a sacred early rush (especially when most blessed sacred have 14 or more morale).

ps : not tested so I may be wrong

Anyway the new priests and other new spells give a good boost to Ulm (darts look really awesome for their low fatigue cost).

[Ylvali]

Provided the ability is indeed effective, I can see a few lord guardians w dual shields on hold blocking lots of sacreds. Backed up with crossbows to do the damage.

But I fear the ability isn´t effective enough to do that.

One alternative would be to skip the Lord guardian altogether and give the HH ability to the regular guardians instead.

[Zeldor]

And that would mean 10 turns of making 0 research and 10 turns of not getting smiths to forge some stuff for SC that Ulm should rather take, I guess PoD in most cases.

[Tuidjy]

Worthless. Which fits very well, given that 'worthless' is MA Ulm's theme.
So much effort, new abilities, new summons, new weapons... and it all adds
up to 'not nearly enough'.

MA Ulm are like a nation of martial art fanatics in a world where assault rifles
grow on trees.

Oh, in case anyone wonders... The iron angel is nothing much. Nice hps, OK
fighting stats, great magic resistance. But he is a level 8 summon, and he
cannot hold a candle to, for example, a Nifelheim Jarl, let alone a high level
summon from a real nation. And I assume that it is simple sloppiness, but his
uberweapon (which is anything but uber) goes away if you give him a weapon.

[Ylvali]

Oh, I wouldn´t say that. I´ve had some great times with ulm.

[Zeldor]

Hehe, in SP I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

Once upon the time, I challenged people to duels to show them how utterly
worthless Ulm is. Later, I wrote long posts explaining why Ulm's troops suck,
and backed them up with probabilities. Even more recently, I ran battles in which
Ulm mighty and finely equipped warriors were whipped by non-sacred, build anywhere
troops like principles, men at arms and defenders.

And still, there are those who chime in with 'Oh, Ulm is not so bad'.

So I have decided not to engage in rational discussion anymore. My answer now is
'Shut up you newbie, you have no idea what you are talking about'.

[Twan]

I've already seen Ulm winning in MP, it just need an awake great sage to avoid to lose the magic race, some luck for starting position -not being rushed by a neighbour- and not too strong indies (indie 9 or maps like WoG are not good for Ulm).

As your troops are tough you don't need many summons, so you can keep your gems for some globals and/or forge boosters for all your battlefield mages (once you have the level for magma eruption it's sad to continue to cast magma bolts).

The only big ulmish problem is how slow the infantry is. Instead of any other boost I would have given mapmove 2 to all troops without black plate.

[Ballbarian]

Ulm may not have a chance in multiplayer against experienced players, but it is still one of my absolute favorites.

[Endoperez]

Tuidjy said:
Oh, in case anyone wonders... The iron angel is nothing much. Nice hps, OK fighting stats, great magic esistance. But he is a level 8 summon, and he cannot hold a candle to, for example, a Nifelheim Jarl, let alone a high level summon from a real nation. And I assume that it is simple sloppiness, but his uberweapon (which is anything but uber) goes away if you give him a weapon.



Is Iron Angel really that bad compared to other units available in MA? I don't remember what angel Pythium/Marignon get at level 8, but I think it's Angel of Fury. One against one, it's Blood Vengeance won't do anything against the Iron Angel, and I think they're comparable besides that. Halt Sacred +8 should stop attacks even against blessed, sacred commanders, though. And as far as national go, the only buff mages I can think of are Deep Kings and Skratti.

The special ability of Guardians' Black Halberds and Iron Angel's sacred fist is 15 armor-piercing stun damage on AoE 1. That means that it works better against light sacreds (anything that is massed) than heavily armored sacreds (sacred thugs). The fist goes away because his whole idea is "strength in self", not "strength via items X, Y and Z". The attack he loses deals pretty bad damage to magic beings and stuns sacreds, but it's not that special - against most things, he's better with a forged weapon.

Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard seem to be about in line with Magma Bolts/Magma Eruption, but I'm not sure how the armor-piercing affects their use or how useful their scaling is.

[Dedas]

Twan said:
The guardians don't have this ability, only the lord guardian (commander, you may recruit one per turn in the beginning, so you will have less than 10 of them -imagining you know you will be rushed and never build priests or mages- when an ennemy rusher arrives).

So I'm not really sure it's sufficient to stop a sacred early rush (especially when most blessed sacred have 14 or more morale).

ps : not tested so I may be wrong

Anyway the new priests and other new spells give a good boost to Ulm (darts look really awesome for their low fatigue cost).



I didn't write that they have Halt Heresy, but that they have Bane Heresy. Click on the black halberd to see this.

[Zeldor]

IF someone is too lazy to check, stats of Iron Angel:

63 HP
6 base protection
6 encumbrance [ouch]
Morale 30
MR 21
Reinvigoration 4
Str 22
Attack 16
Def 13
Precision 12
Move 3/11
Ldrship 0

halt heretic +8, flying, FR 50, SR 50, NNE

Built in black steel full plate, black steel helmet, swword of sharpness, divine graps.

[Twan]

I didn't write that they have Halt Heresy, but that they have Bane Heresy. Click on the black halberd to see this.



Oooh thanks I missed that. It looks like an interesting power.

[Jurri]

Ahem, the Iron Angel has
base encumberance 1
base magic resistance 20
base defense 15
base move 3/16
(You obviously observed it in drain dominion and didn't take into account the equipment modifications to the stats.)

At a glance, it's an excellent chassis for the cost. Especially for earth gems, which don't have many good options aside from Gargoyles and those have their weaknesses and require lots of nature gems. Flying, high hp and high MR chassis with some built in resistances... Yummy! (Of course you'll wanna replace his equipment, especially that hideous armor, but with some regeneration and some good gear it will be a nasty piece of work.)

[Twan]

Ballbarian said:
Ulm may not have a chance in multiplayer against experienced players



It's nothing but a legend. If you look in the MP hall of fame you'll see 2 ME Ulm victories, and as I doubt that Wraithlord and CKUnknow play in newbie games it was probably in games with (at least some) experienced players.

There was also an uncounted victory of Ulm in one of the first dom3 games -ended by a bug when Ulm was first in gems and research with 4 or 5 globals up- so weak or not in theory, ME Ulm is only beaten by two or three nations for the number of (not duel) real games won (here, but I think it's the place where you find most experienced players).

Unbelievable isn't it ? (as well as Arco still having 0 victory)

[coobe]

i second that Ulm is viable in MP, Now with the new stuff in the patch i think even more

You just have to play them differently like any race in dom3

[llamabeast]

What's this "Bane of Heresy" thing then?

[chrispedersen]

I think you guys are nuts. Halt Sacred is huge.

[CUnknown]

I think, especially with these changes, that MA Ulm will be on even footing with most MA races. I plan on playing them as soon as I find the time for another game. I am so excited!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Tuidjy - we have debated this to death. I won't risk further rational discussion with you. But, surely you must admit that MA Ulm is certainly better than it was before after this patch? And, you wouldn't argue that MA Ulm can't possibly win a competitive multiplayer game, would you? There are plenty of factors that could throw a game towards one faction or another, regardless of the units/mages it may or may not have. I mean, what about good old fashioned luck? MA Ulm isn't so bad, even before these changes, that it had no chance whatsoever.

In that game that I won, I got Olg's Alchemical Device in my capital, which helped me immensely (it was a substantial portion of my income - it was a small map). I also found some excellent magic sites very early on. It was also a victory point game, which meant I didn't have to defeat Jurri (who is an excellent player of course and who was giving me hell during that one).

Point being, if the cards fall your way, MA Ulm can win, there's no doubt. So stop with the rediculous absolutist arguements. And that was before the new changes.

You have been asking for MA Ulm to get some love, and it's finally happened. So why are you still upset? No one is forcing you to play them.

[thejeff]

One of Ulm's advantages is everyone thinks it's weak so they don't worry about it. But they don't want to kill it off early, because it makes a good trading partner.
They have a kind of diplomatic advantage. Doesn't always work out, and you have to take advantage of it, but it does help counter balance.

It's the changes to the infantry and armor that interest me. Thematically, Ulm is supposed to have really tough troops and, largely due to encumbrance, they had high end but not exceptional heavy infantry.

[Dedas]

The main fault I've seen people do when playing Ulm is that they are not building enough castles; and this nations needs a crazy amount of them.

[Sombre]

One thing which is for sure, is that Ulm Reborn the mod nation are seeing an update very soon. It would be interesting to see them up against regular LA Ulm.

[CUnknown]

thejeff - I agree, I really enjoy the forging bonus from a trading and diplomacy perspective. Even if I'm weak, I enjoy forging items for other people (for a profit) and helping to pick the eventual winner. But of course you can also amass large stacks of gems that help you to win, too.

Tied in with this trading edge, is another advantage for taking a rainbow pretender with Ulm. With a rainbow, you can say to potential trading partners: "I'll accept 6 gems of any type for such and such item", so you can get better deals than you might otherwise because you can find a use for any kind of gem that people might have too many of. Does that make sense? Not sure if I phrased that correctly.

Tuidjy views this as being a "forge *****" and will have none of it.

He's not completely wrong on that. Forging items for other people is not generally considered a path to victory in this game. Thing is, I enjoy doing it. I do think it is a nice advantage as well. Not quite the same caliber advantage as having a 400 gold recruitable mage, or excellent sacreds or elephants with which to crush your enemy, but it does help you win and it is a fun game within the game for me.

MA Ulm is maybe not for everyone, but with this new patch, maybe they will be better respected and rack up some more multiplayer victories.

[Kristoffer O]

Dedas said:
It's a bit too early yet to say, at least I haven't tested it yet. Although the +2 bonus that the Lord Guardian gets seems a bit weak, at least if it works like ordinary awe. The reason is that especially sacreds, among all units, have above normal morale.



The Halt Heretic power of the lord guardians are not supposed to stop bless rushes. It is the power of the Iron angel, and just a bonus for the lord guardians.

It is the Black Halberds thet are supposed to stop early sacred rushes (sand perhaps late ones as well) .

Halberds do 15 ap aoe1 stun regardless of hits, meaning massed unarmored units get lots of fatigue. Jaguars and vanir are prime targets.

[Baalz]

Yeah, personally I kinda like picking up nations that are considered underpowered and figuring out how to play them in such a way as to make their strengths shine. I'm not the best player out there and only have a couple wins under my belt, but I've had very strong showings with MA Ulm (tied for second), MA Atlantis (solid second) and Eriu (came out the gate so fast 6 nations ganged up on me in year 2...oops). None of these were newbie games, all of them were large games and I always find it amusing when somebody claims that some nation is unplayable...or that I'm a newbie and don't know what I'm talking about. Use a bit of creativity, know your limitations and have fun with it. Who wants a game where all the nations play the same?

[Dedas]

I'm all with you Baalz!

[Xietor]

I think Ulm being redone is responsive to the cries of the mp community. So thanks KO. Not sure anything helps Ulm survive an early elephant rush, but Ulm can and should take an awake pretender sc to deal with this possibility, just as Abysia and other nations are forced to do.

I guess if every nation had an elephant counter then the value of elephants would be reduced.

My minor suggestions:

1. Move Iron Angel to construction, as that is a more likely path for Ulm to traverse-and it is Iron(a construct).

2. Given Ulm's huge weakness to magic, Temper Will is 5 spots down a tree that Ulm does not research. If it cannot be moved to a more friendly research path, like evoc, then would it be amiss to make it available at 4 rather than 5?

Ulm really gets nothing of value at Thaum 4, and the astral races get mind burn at 2 and paralyze at 4, and antimagic at enchanment 4. It really makes it hard on Ulm to have to go to thaum 5 early in the game, when you also need summon earth, constr 4(earth boots, dwarven hammer(2)), blade wind, etc.

And make no mistake Ulm is still fairly helpless against astral races until it gets temper the will. But it really cannot afford to run straight to thaum 5 out of the box.

[Kristoffer O]

> I think Ulm being redone is responsive to the cries of the mp community.

A bit perhaps. Since I've heard the cries for the last couple of years it has probably affected my view on Ulm. I think I have agreed more or less all the time though. I got some ideas this summer, but have been up to other stuff that felt more interesting, like Serpent Cult, Bogarus and other projects.

Someone mentioned Ulm when I was free a couple of weeks ago, and I got inspired.

[llamabeast]

I'm very excited to take a look at this patch when I get home.

Do the black halberds only work on sacreds then?

[Dedas]

All this sounds awesome, and I'm pretty curious on Gath.

Hey llamabeast, please check your inbox. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Inbox checked. Messages from Dedas: 0.

[Dedas]

Weird... I sent two messages. I will try to resend.

[llamabeast]

Oh right yeah, sorry, I got those - they were a little while ago. I guess I was just being unresponsive, sorry (well, I knew I would start the game as soon as I had a chance but didn't bother telling you that). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Endoperez]

llamabeast said:
I'm very excited to take a look at this patch when I get home.

Do the black halberds only work on sacreds then?



The special effect (fatigue) should only work on enemy sacreds.

[ComTrav]

Nub question: Can someone clarify what, if anything, was changed about plate? Is Black Plate more viable now?

[Dedas]

Less fatigue penalty, less defense penalty.

[Endoperez]

ComTrav said:
Nub question: Can someone clarify what, if anything, was changed about plate? Is Black Plate more viable now?



Black Plate lost one or two points of encumberance, got one or two points of protection and the defense malus went down by a point or two. Slight changes, but especially the encumberance change helps a lot.

As for the units, all troops with Black Plate got +1 morale, giving Black Plate infantry 11 and pikeneers 12 morale.

[thejeff]

That helps a lot. May at least make Ulm's troops competitive. I would have been tempted to call the Black Plate troops elite, bump their cost up slightly and give them better attack and defense. But the morale and armor improvements are very nice.

[Kristoffer O]

They are not supposed to be elites, just armored.

[thejeff]

I understand that's the current state.
It was a justification for making them a little better, besides the armor. Along the lines of "Don't waste the good armor on the regular troops."

Can't wait to try out the new version.

Thanks

[CUnknown]

It sort of puts the black plates on an elite-ish level, for heavy inf, though.

I'd like to see the results of the heavy inf comparison tests with the new black plates. Black plates v an equal gold value of principes, for example. I bet black plates would do significantly better now.

[ComTrav]

It should be pointed out that Ulm now has a level-2 priest and can now actually cast Sermon of Courage, so the morale issue is much less of a problem.

I'm a little surprised Priest Smiths don't get any randoms, though. The sacred researcher and stronger Iron Darts/Blizzard are nice options to have, but to get the random picks for forging you need to build lots of Master Smiths. (From the description it also sounds like the Priest Smiths don't share the immunity to Drain.) It's nice, though, to have capital-only units worth getting.

Inevitable question: Black Lord vs. Lord Guardian for early game thug.(All this cheap forging needs to be put on SOMETHING, right, sinces its a big part of Ulm you'd prolly want to get them into action before powerful summons are available.)

[Sombre]

Ulm's level 2 priest is cap only and competes with their best researcher, who is actually drain immune, the Smith Priest. I don't see people actually building them and using them for sermons.

[B0rsuk]

Some thoughts:

Iron Darts/Blizzard are EH spells. If you make a prophet out of an earth mage, he or she will be able to cast Iron Darts and Blizzard. For example, you could prophetize a witch and have her cast Eagle Eyes for +5 Precision bonus. It should be nice for non-area spells.

Priest Smith has only 15 leadership instead of 45, and only 9 MR ! Not counting randoms, Priest Smith has the same paths as ordinary smith, and spellcasters tend to have very good MR. What's wrong here ?

Siege Engineer, Smith, Priest Smith have 10 HP, but all other Ulmish commanders have at least 12 HP. This includes black priests, who spend their time looking important instead of heavy physical work or warfare !!

Ghoul Guardians don't have castle defence bonus. Intended ? It may have been this way earlier.

[Edi]

Priest smiths are going to get some modifications in the next patch. Personally, I wish the master smith had a 15% or 20random instead of 10%.

The reason why the priest smith has no randoms is that they are basically washouts or failures who are trying to get more importance by latching on to the Order of the Iron Faith. That's the interpretation I make from the various descriptions anyway.

[Edi]

One question I'm wondering about is whether Bane of Heresy (the aoe effect from Black Halberds) should be "strength of wielder not added"? Because 15 AP damage without strength added is not going to cause a whole lot of fatigue to anything with even half decent armor. Upping the stun damage to 20 AP would make it more useful but still not overkill. Of course, since there are three guardians per square and if all three hit the same enemy square, it adds up fast.

Opinions?

[llamabeast]

I just did a test of 8 Black Halberds against 9 W9F9 jaguars. The halberds won easily. They seem pretty effective, some of the jaguars were knocked out almost immediately.

[johan osterman]

Edi said:
One question I'm wondering about is whether Bane of Heresy (the aoe effect from Black Halberds) should be "strength of wielder not added"? Because 15 AP damage without strength added is not going to cause a whole lot of fatigue to anything with even half decent armor. Upping the stun damage to 20 AP would make it more useful but still not overkill. Of course, since there are three guardians per square and if all three hit the same enemy square, it adds up fast.

Opinions?


As the fatigue increases the targets will lose attack and defense and will get the occasional armour piercing hit though. So the halberds will dish out considerable more normal damage vs sacreds than they did before, and take less themselves, as well as possibly eventually knock them unconscious.

[Edi]

Ah, that and llamabeast's test results provide a quite satisfactory answer. I tossed an off the cuff estimate without actually doing any real number crunching, so I was not at all sure if I was on the right track or not. And as it turns out, I wasn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[B0rsuk]

What about the results of the 'halt heretic' ability itself ? Sacreds are known for unusually high morale, blessing adds +2 morale (I think), and N9 bless causes berserk, which is likely to negate the awe effect.

I'm deffinitely NOT complaining that the halberds work well. But Ulm is supposed to be anti-supernatural nation, right ? So far, they have tools for:

- sacreds (black halberd, halt heretic)
- magic beings (Iron Angel - high research and path requirements)
- undead ? Nothing
- Demons ? Nothing

I appreciate that Ulm finally has unique tools that do their job well... but there's much more to supernatural than sacreds. Sacreds are a good start ;-).

[Xietor]

undead/demons nothing? They have level 2 priests now. That is a great improvement. You do not see many demons in the MA.

I would not mind seeing the level 2 priests recruitable at all castles though. Arcos. has its level 2 priestesses that can heal available at all castles, and it is clearly a much stronger mp nation than Ulm even with the additions. If arcos does not have to choose between its astrologers and priestesses, I am not sure why Ulm has to choose among lesser commanders.

[Tuidjy]

> I just did a test of 8 Black Halberds against 9 W9F9 jaguars. The halberds won
> easily. They seem pretty effective, some of the jaguars were knocked out
> almost immediately.

I'm extremely impressed. I cannot understand it, though. How did the
halberdiers even manage to hit the jaguars? Does the halberd get a to hit
bonus as well? Or is it a 'trigger everytime' area of effect ability? If
that's the case, I still welcome the boost to Ulm, but I have to say, I do
not like it from a lore perspective. I wave my magic halberd, heroically
attacking empty air, and the enemy elite are impressed. Pff...

Come on, give us Ulmish that we can be PROUD being. *cough* Ulm Reborn *cough*

> Black Lord vs. Lord Guardian for early game thug.(All this cheap forging needs
> to be put on SOMETHING, right, sinces its a big part of Ulm you'd prolly want
> to get them into action before powerful summons are available.)

At the onset, Black Lord all the way. Being mounted, he does not care about the
huge encumberance of most earth items. Later on, there will be a place for
Lord Guardians, maybe.

[Edi]

Tuidjy, Bane of Heresy is 15 ap nostr aoe 1 stun damage autoeffect that hits the target square regardless of whether the actual halberd blow lands on target. If you have three halberds hitting the same square simultaneously, each jaguar warrior in that square takes 3x 15 ap stun and the next round it's a whole different ballgame when they start getting criticals due to fatigue lowering their defense.

[VedalkenBear]

Sombre: I recruit a Preacher for each army I put into the field. I find it very useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I don't get more than 1, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[CUnknown]

I'm loving these test results!

Die Heretics, Die!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Tuidjy]

Yeah, that's what I said "I wave my halberd in the air, draining strength and
skill out of the enemy"... Magic. Of the worst kind. Now we know why Ulm fell.

Call the inquisitors!

On a more serious note, please rework the description. I do not have the game
here, but I believe it said something about the guardians skill and resolve. It
should speak of the weapon's properties.

But the ability itself is damn nice.

[Kristoffer O]

> It should speak of the weapon's properties.

It does, unless I'm mistaken.

It is not a magic halberd as much as a sacred halberd created by the Priest Smiths. Fatigue is a result from the clash of divine powers.

[Edi]

I just checked the description, Tuidjy.


Guardian & Lord Guardian description says:
The Guardians are entrusted with the security of the mighty Keep of Ulm. Since the emergence of the Black Priests and the construction of the Black Temple, they have received increased status as destroyers of heresy. The priests of the Iron Faith have successfully imbued mundane weapons with divine might. These Blacksteel halberds are given to the Guardians to smite the unholy heretics. Iron, not flesh, is held sacred in the Iron Faith. The swing of a Black Halberd strikes enemies of the faith with exhaustion as divine powers collide.


Furthermore, the Black Priests and Priest Smiths and other mentions of the Iron Cult make references to magic outside religion being heresy and the black halberds being imbued with divine power (in the same sense that Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard are Earth/Holy mixed path spells). So it is not as contradictory as you remember it being.

[Tuidjy]

The more I hear, the more I like it. I looked at the new changes late one night,
and decided that I was not nearly enough. It seems I was quite off. Now, if
Ulm could only get some kind of decently trained soldiers. It is my recollection
that most if not all of the infantry have 10s in their combat stats.

[Edi]

Most of them do, yes. It's because they are regular soldiers, just very well equipped. The Guardians and the Black Knights are the only ones who have above 10 stats. Guardian has attack 12, defense 10 base and Black Knight is, well, Black Knight. The Black Plate Infantry units got morale boosted from 10 to 11 comapred to 10 for the basic Ulm infantry and the pikemen are 11 and 12 for normal and Black Plate respectively. The Full Plate of Ulm getting defense penalty slashed from -5 to -3 is also a good thing.

Combined with Black Priests able to cast Sermon of Courage, all of that put together is not insignificant at all compared to what Ulm used to be like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

What really bothers me about Ulm (among many other things) is that they have the
equipment, they just do not know how to use it.

1. Give the arbalest guys a pavise (tower shield) to duck behind, and they will
become the terror of the battlefield.

2. Have some of the infantry wear the arbalesters' cuiraces, give them the
knights' kite shields, the pikemen's half helmets, and a simple shortsword.
Can you say awesome medium infantry?

3. As for the black knights, have them go on a quest to find their daddy's
broadsword, and to help them look, give them a half helmet.

Now, if the damn smiths would get off their asses and actually apply their
supposed skill on lightening the above MUNDANE equipment, THEN would Ulm have
a claim to 'excellent equipment'.

Also, I wish they would get a MASS reinvigoration spell based on Earth magic.
Why isn't there one? After all Earth=reinvigoration since the days of Antaios.

[chrispedersen]

I'll reiterate my previous post. Before you speculate - do some trials. I've tried three games with the current patch. I think Ulm is now one of the strongest LA nations.

[Sombre]

He's primarily talking about MA Ulm though.

LA Ulm always had some stuff going for it and got quite a boost with the improvements to the iron faith and ghoul guardians (which are now pretty hot units).

[Xietor]

no one on this thread was talking about LA Ulm. We are all talking about MA Ulm.

[Saulot]

No offense, but at what point do you look at someone's request and think 'edacious and insatiable'?

[Tuidjy]

I always thought that edacious was about food, and insatiable about sex. :-)
Hell, my gut feeling is that MA Ulm is still weak, I would like them to really
be a viable nation. Until I play a MA game that they're in, I will not be able
to speak from experience. Every halfway decent player can trounce the AI, even
on impossible.

The new guardians have covered one of Ulm's vulnerabilities. I feel they have a
few more left but what the Hell, I am shutting up until I try them, or at least
fight them in MP.

[B0rsuk]

Ulm may not be viable for you or Zeldor, but perfectly fine for people who like unusual nations, experimentation, and some challenge.

[Sir_Dr_D]

These changes make Ulm a much more interesting nation at any rate.

I don't think anyone has comment on the changes to the black plate. No one, will poitn and laugh anymore at how clumsy the black plate soldiers look as they try to make it from one side of the battlefield to the other without collapsing from exhastion. The black plate is now something to be feared.


Jotunheim in particular will really fear those black halbreds, and the black halbreds will be able stop short pythium Angels, and other sacred SCs. They will be quite a force.

Halt scared sounds cool, but I don't think it will be that effective.

Its nice to give ulm a choice of mages. Only the one kind mind ulm kind of boring.

[Edi]

Actually, there are a couple of things where I agree with Tuidjy, namely about the medium infantry. MA Ulm currently has essentially 10 varieties of same heavy infantry and only one or two of them are ever used (3 or 4, if you count black plate and chain mail of same type as separate ones).

A couple of varieties of plate cuirass medium infantry with short swords/axe/hammer/hatchet/morning star and kite shield or normal shield and half helmet or iron cap for helmet and perhaps mapmove 2 wouldn't be bad. Of the weapons, hatchet and short sword would be the most appropriate, axe is the most problematic due to both attack and defense penalty.

That would give MA Ulm some flexibility, though there is the danger of the medium infantry being used as the main troops due to greater movement capacity. On the other hand, if the medium infantry were to use some two-handed weapon like battle axe, halberd, bardiche, claymore or greatsword, they would not be such an obvious choice all around as the lack of shield and lower overall protection would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen. Sure, they'd hit hard, but their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range instead of shooting up to 14-16 range.

The heavy infantry still suffer from relatively low defense values and for the black plate infantry, knights and guardians, the helmet could be changed to black steel helmet to complement the full plate of Ulm. That would increase def by 1 point, which is not an unreasonable boost at all, they'll still get hit all the time.

Another thing I'd really like to see is the master smiths get their random chance upped to 15% or 20%, because they still won't get them too often. Maybe jack up the price by 10 to count for that.

[Dedas]

I'm quite satisfied with the infantry as it is. Everyone have their niches more or less depending on what nation you are currently fighting.

[Edi]

Probably. My perspective is NOT from multiplayer, so I defer to the judgment of more experienced people in that regard. The black steel helmets would be thematically cool, though.

[Dedas]

I cannot agree with you more. Black steel helmets should be there.

[B0rsuk]

Black steel Helmets sound like a no-brainer. Ulm is all about black steel, right ? Why do they use those crappy regular -1 def full helmets ?

[Sir_Dr_D]

I agree with these latest statements.

Though I now beleive that black plate infantry is now quite a good unit, ulm still should have medium infantry with map move 2.

[Don_Seba]

Ok, I must be missing something. I do not like Tuidjy's way of lobbying for even more Ulm goodies by disparaging what they just received, but I do not understand why the rest of you are looking for ways of preventing Ulm's troops from shining.

> they would not be such an obvious choice all around

> would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen.

> their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range

Ulm have forsaken magic. They worship physical strength and masterfully crafted equipment. Why on earth should they not have really good, properly equipped troops?

We are not talking about giving them some out of this world items. We are not even talking about letting them have some infantry with 11s in their stats, although I would not be surprised if Ulm is the only nation that does not have build anywhere veteran infantry.

Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

[Endoperez]

Don_Seba said:
Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.



Actually, the price for dumbest choice of equipment would go for Agarthans. Poor attack and defense, above-average hp and strength, size 3 or bigger makes swarming harder. Clearly high-precision or high-damage weapons are needed, or weapon with multiple attacks. Good shields combined with high hp and units spread over larger area would help a lot against archers. So what's their weapon of choice? Spear and buckler. Surely their giant brethren have something nice, like Great Clubs or Battleaxes? Nope, spears and bucklers. What about their elites? Glaives, for that wonderful malus to both attack and defense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Edi]

Don_Seba said:
Ok, I must be missing something. I do not like Tuidjy's way of lobbying for even more Ulm goodies by disparaging what they just received, but I do not understand why the rest of you are looking for ways of preventing Ulm's troops from shining.

> they would not be such an obvious choice all around

> would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen.

> their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range

Ulm have forsaken magic. They worship physical strength and masterfully crafted equipment. Why on earth should they not have really good, properly equipped troops?

We are not talking about giving them some out of this world items. We are not even talking about letting them have some infantry with 11s in their stats, although I would not be surprised if Ulm is the only nation that does not have build anywhere veteran infantry.

Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.


I did some minmaxing of my own, which is why I do not advocate giving them too well equipped mapmove 2 medium infantry. Plate Cuirass, half helmet and shield is going to be just a couple of prot points less than the chainmail infantry. AND will have better defense AND better mapmove. So which ones were you building again when the chainmail infantry is obsolete?

Better mapmove gives far more tactical and strategic flexibility, which will in the end be so much more important than the higher protection of black plate infantry that the only units anyone will ever build are the medium infantry if they are available.

You can see the same thing in action with EA Ulm, the only actual units worth building with that nation are warrior maidens, steel maidens and shield maidens with iron warriors for heavy hitting built near the front. The other normal warrior units simply suck that much the way they currently are. That is why if you want to keep the MA Ulm heavy units viable, shields are out for medium infantry. Not because it is perfectly logical, but to prevent the nation thematics from being irretrievably broken.

I would not mind black plate infantry having +1 str, att & def compared to the regular infantry, however.

[CUnknown]

Keep MA Ulm slow. We don't need no stinking "medium" infantry! We are ULM!

Let them keep their 2 map move, "medium" infantry is like saying you are only "sort of" an Ulmish warrior.

Hehe, no seriously, I like variation in the races, with different strengths and weaknesses. One of MA Ulm's major weaknesses is being slow. I think it should stay like that.

[ComTrav]

Black Knights and Sappers have mapmove 2, that whould be all you need =).

[Edi]

True. Besides that, sappers have a use as mobile crossbow units, but they are expensive. Compared to the other Ulm units anyway, but should not be an issue.

[Sombre]

I'm confused. Ulmish infantry already have hp 12 and str 11, yet I've seen people talking about giving them str 11 in a couple of places.

I think str 12 for black plate guys would be over the top. They aren't supposed to be elite and str 12 is pretty elite by human soldier standards.

[Edi]

There's regular human and there's Ulm. Stronger and more durable, suck at resisting magic. As far as the str goes, I'm fine with it. Though 12 would not be out of line, it'd just be +1 to normal Ulm strength but the later eras are supposedly softer than their barbarian past. Hell, the EA Ulm women have str 11 and warriors 12, with the elites 13.

Black Knights have str 13, no reason why Guardians should not as well. Black plate infantry should probably stay at str 11. Even getting the full helmet swapped for blacksteel helmet would be an immediate +1 def.

The thing is that people often forget the str when talking about combat stats, which are usually the same across the line.

[Saulot]

Don_Seba said:
Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.



The crowd cheers as the armor contest comes to a close with a three-way tie, and the smiths grinning with their shiny lead medals.

Ulmish Mayor speaking to the gathered crowd, "And now it's time for a favorite amongst the lads, the annual 'Weakest Will' competition!"

The crowd cheers.

The mayor continues, "Alright, are the competitors ready? (he pauses) Ready, set, go!"

One contestant immediately belts out, "I give up!"

The mayor replies, "We have a winner!"

The crowd cheers.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

Edi said:
The thing is that people often forget the str when talking about combat stats, which are usually the same across the line.



Yeah. I'm pretty sure most people haven't even noticed Machakans have lower base encumberance than other humans, for example. Point of strength isn't as useful as one more attack or defence, though, in most cases.

[Edi]

Machakans also have a higher base mapmove, they are the only nation to have mapmove 3 normal human infantry. And with forestry to boot.

[B0rsuk]

Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard. Was the intention to make Ulm into something they oppose - an evocation-based nation ? I think Ulm should get spells which are more fitting. Buffs, summons, etc. Ulm already has hard-hitting ranged units - Arbalests. They may not be very efficient as archers, sadly, but they can hold their own in melee. Today 20 of my ulmish PD stopped the earthquake+troglodytes event. If you want to give Ulm ranged weapons, just make Arbalests reasonable investment. How about making arbalests pierce shields ? They are supposed to be Heavy crossbows !

2. Priest Smith is a bit too good. 9 out of 10 master smiths are strictly worse than a priest smith. I would switch their paths - make Priest Smith FFE instead of EEF . From thematic point of view, it could be said they're burning with faith or something equally corny. That would 1) make them older, giving Master Smiths an advantage 2) widen the difference between the both 3) Make each of them distinctive 4) Give Ulm slightly wider choice of magic.
As it is, MA Ulm is THE Iron Faith of Dom3. The Priests are significantly stronger in MA than MA.

3.bug: PD gets usual priest instead of black acolyte. Ulm can't even recruit a regular priest anymore.
-----------

Old stuff:

Ulm has a bad choice of weapons. It makes them distinctive, yes, but why would I recruit infantry with hammers ? Length 1 ? A lot of their attacks will get parried, and each such attack adds what, 9 fatigue ? What good is Heavy armour if you can't deal damage ? I can see the point of black plates for unshielded infantry, but I think shields on black plates is overkill. You're going to use those shields mostly against archers anyway. You sacrifice too much weapon power by equipping a tower shield.

Battleaxes and mauls (len 3) are nearly identical. I think one of them should go. Battleaxe is better because it doesn't have -1 to defence. But it also costs 2 res more. Ulm soldiers are so clumsy they (probably) are getting hit all the time anyway, so it's probably better to recruit mauls. If it was up to me, I would remove battleaxe Ulm infantry.

I think my complaints about Ulm weapons come from one source: in my opinion, weapons cost too few resources. Armour should cost less (to balance it), and weapons - more. That would make weapon choices more meaningful. I would consider hammers if they costed quite a bit less resources than morningstars, but as it is now, why bother ? You can usually get much better weapon for marginal increase in resources.

[Endoperez]

B0rsuk said:
Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard.

2. Priest Smith is a bit too good.

-----------

Old stuff:

Ulm has a bad choice of weapons. It makes them distinctive, yes, but why would I recruit infantry with hammers ? Length 1 ? A lot of their attacks will get parried, and each such attack adds what, 9 fatigue ? What good is Heavy armour if you can't deal damage ? I can see the point of black plates for unshielded infantry, but I think shields on black plates is overkill. You're going to use those shields mostly against archers anyway. You sacrifice too much weapon power by equipping a tower shield.

Battleaxes and mauls (len 3) are nearly identical. I think one of them should go. Battleaxe is better because it doesn't have -1 to defence. But it also costs 2 res more. Ulm soldiers are so clumsy they (probably) are getting hit all the time anyway, so it's probably better to recruit mauls. If it was up to me, I would remove battleaxe Ulm infantry.



1) Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard are the first steps towards Malediction and LA Ulm. They ARE steps away from what Ulm represents. However, they are on the exact same levels as Magma Bolts and Magma Eruption, which Master Smiths would use any way - so they don't actually do that much more.

2) Priest Smiths is capital-only, so the difference isn't that great. In addition, Priest Smiths will get a bit older in the next patch, whenever it comes. The problem, if there is one, was noted in the beta, but the patch was released without the alterations (to Priest Smith and some descriptions) to fix the scale bug mk 2.

Weapons:
- I regularly choose Battleaxes over Mauls. Every point helps, IMO, and units with heavy weapons or high strength aren't usually that accurate. Difference between 3 higher and 4 higher attack is 6%, or about one in 20 hits being a miss.
- I also regularly choose shielded troops over unshielded. Morningstars are good against enemy shields, and they're pretty good weapons any way. Hammers are very poor in Dominions because they can't deal enough damage to penetrate armor. AFAIK, real-life mauls weren't used as battlefield weapons, and real-life warhammers looked more like picks that punched through the armor. Maces and such had enough momentum to crush bones through armor (enough damage to deal damage through protection).

I'd like to see shields' protection values weakened a bit (perhaps -5 across the board), and damage of all "heavy" weapons increased a bit (3-4 points). 12 damage battleaxe + 11 strength against 14 prot +10 shield would be able to deal damage, but knights' 18+10 shield would still be quite safe.

Plate Armor was changed towards what Arralen had done in his mod, so perhaps instead of talking we should do competing "better armor balance" mods and stary lobbying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[johan osterman]

B0rsuk said:
Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard. Was the intention to make Ulm into something they oppose - an evocation-based nation ? I think Ulm should get spells which are more fitting. Buffs, summons, etc. Ulm already has hard-hitting ranged units - Arbalests. They may not be very efficient as archers, sadly, but they can hold their own in melee. Today 20 of my ulmish PD stopped the earthquake+troglodytes event. If you want to give Ulm ranged weapons, just make Arbalests reasonable investment. How about making arbalests pierce shields ? They are supposed to be Heavy crossbows !
...


Who said that Ulm opposes evocations?

[B0rsuk]

johan osterman said:
Who said that Ulm opposes evocations ?



Ulm has a small number of small(tightly packed) and expensive units. This means that an area spell covers much larger percentage of their army than it would be the case for another nation(relying on higher number of units). This is further amplified that Ulm infantry moves very slowly on the battlefield. So not only enemy mages get more out of their area spells, but are also able to cast more of them before both armies clash.
Small number of units also makes them more vulnerable to single target spells.
Bottom line: Ulm would be vulnerable to magic even without explicit -1 to MR. I think the penalty is just an overkill.
-------------

There's something wrong about EA Ulm. Nowhere does it say (Not even unit descriptions !) that EA Ulm fears magic. In fact, EA Ulm is affected by Drain ! EA Ulm has quite high magic and lots of randoms, even on smiths. Lots of variety. And... 8 MR ? Why ? In EA Ulm, mages seem to be easily accepted part of the society. If anything, MA Ulm should have lower MR than EA Ulm, because they've lost lots of their magic, Drain is coming, etc.
--------

Ulm progression through eras is really strange. I think MA Ulm -> LA Ulm is ok from thematic point of view. But if I was new to Dom3, my guess would be that Transylwania Ulm belongs in MA and Tin Can Ulm is from LA. LA Ulm has more magic, light and medium infantry, as well as heavies. But ok...
Now look at EA Ulm -> MA Ulm. Almost no sense of connection except for smithing discount ! Very different tactics (ambushes), magic, military, even weapons used. It would be hard to guess they're ancestors of MA Ulm. 1 Era later, Ulm is radically transformed AND already abandoning the "old ways" of "no magic" ? Master smiths already falling out of grace and Black Priests quite prominent ? I think MA Black Order looks stronger than the one from LA.
---
Endoperez:

Battleaxes might be a little better in some cases (and certainly better against elephants) but the difference is quite marginal. 6% you say ? About 1/20 . If you choose cheaper mauls over battleaxes, 2 resource less per soldier means you get 13 maulers per 12 battleaxes. Also quite marginal. My main point is, it's too redundant and it would be much more interesting to have entriely different weapon in its place. MA Ulm is interesting because they don't use any swords...how about a kopesh ? ;-)

What's really bad about hammer infantry is that, to my knowledge, they are affected by the same parry laws as everyone else. Infantry in very heavy armour AND with heavy shields shouldn't be so afraid of enemies with longer weapons. They have biiig shields to parry and unusually heavy armour. Yes, I know blck plates have +1 morale now(and it helps against longer weapons) but LOTS of units of other nations have morale this high or even higher, so it hardly matters.

By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.

[Endoperez]

B0rsuk said:
By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.



Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.

[Tuidjy]

Borsuk, the progression makes perfect sense. Between EA and MA, Ulm was invaded
by The Stupid. They threw away their swords, locked their women home, and
decided that lifting dumbbells was substitute for martial training. Do not
believe the propaganda. They did not decide that magic was bad. They just
lost 30 points off their IQ, and it was all sour grapes from then on.

The smiths escaped the curse of the Stupid, because when the dumbbell worshiping
mob came to lynch them, they showed them a heavy hammer, and told them it was
a just a special kind of free weight. Of course, this backfired as the morons
who heard it became the hammer wielding infantry.

By the way, Ulm still has swords. Look at the arbalesters. Why do you think they
are decent infantry?

[Dedas]

Endoperez said:

B0rsuk said:
By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.



Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.



Mauls are less expensive in resources, making them the least expensive troop in the whole of Ulm's arsenal. The "drawback" is one less defense.
If you are fighting low attack high HP units like giants and Agarthans battle axes might be more preferable.

[Endoperez]

Tuidjy said:
The smiths escaped the curse of the Stupid, because when the dumbbell worshiping mob came to lynch them, they showed them a heavy hammer, and told them it was a just a special kind of free weight. Of course, this backfired as the morons who heard it became the hammer wielding infantry.



The Stupid in question happen to be Ermor. Dom:PPP Ulm broke away from Broken Empire with the help of steel, like Marignon did with priests and Pythium with magic.

[Edi]

Ah, a favorite subject of mine, progression from EA to MA to LA and how to tie it all together. Better brace yourselves, people.

It all begins (and ends) with Ermor, since that nation is most intimately tied with so many others (C'tis, Pythium, Ulm, Marverni, Marignon and perhaps even Arcoscephale). According to the original script, Ermor rose to become a mighty nation that conquered most of the world and then fell into darkness in a cataclysmic disaster that brought the Ashen Empire into being.

In Dominions 2 we got the Broken Empire as an alternate historical timeline. When Dominions 3 came around, Kristoffer put Broken Empire in MA and tried to make all the tangled history work together though it doesn't do it very well because they are parallel alternate timelines. That's why it gives us such schizophrenic side effects with some of the other nations and why the Ashen Empire descriptions clash with MA Ermor's.

In the case of Ulm, it was one of the conquered territories that was subjugated and so was Marverni. If we go by what I personally consider the official history (i.e. the original story), things make a lot more sense. The Augur Elders dabbled with stolen C'tissian secrets, screwed up and caused the cataclysm. Cue Ashen Empire (which really should be in MA by that account). For the barbarians of Ulm who have been Ermorian vassals for a few centuries, this would represent the ultimate corruption and taint their views on magic pretty damned severely. So they turn to steel and eschew magic. Marverni, which has been absorbing more influences from Ermor and is more influenced by their old Flamen and numina cults and which was always more devoutly religious turns even deeper into religion and brings the cleansing power of holy fire to bear on the nemesis. MA Ulm and MA Marignon, i.e. the original Ulm and Marignon, are born.

Later, when the Ashen Empire has finally been defeated (or is about to be or is not yet, depending on how you want the story to go), the Iron Cult emerges in Ulm and starts gaining influence. Eventually it causes unrest and schisms inside Ulm, possibly with the help of corrupted elements from elsewhere, Ermorian Death Cultists, what have you and all kinds of dark practices get introduced in secret cabals. Civil war between the Black Order, the Iron Cult (which may or may not have already absorbed the Black Knights) and the master smiths and their supporters gives the secret factions more leeway to work their dark designs that culminate in the Malediction. Basically, a usurper god kicks the old, feeble god of MA Ulm off the throne, curses the land and alters its characteristics and brings about the Ulm of the Black Forest.

Meanwhile in Marignon, heresy has been stamped out and the Chalice Knights grow complacent, unrest from neighboring Ulm spills over, there may or may not be other influences at work here too and these funny little devil cults start cropping up, some perhaps even inside the church, born out of the fear and desperation of prominent clergy who are willing to pay any price to avoid the kingdom being overrun by the Ashen Empire. An inquisitor looking the other way here, a few blood sacrifices there, some pious blather about the common good requiring hard choices and a few choice appeals to how sacrifices were okay in the old days (Marverni) and pretty soon we're talking about the Dom2 era Diabolic Faith Marignon, which is essentially what the LA Marignon in Dom3 is (only with the Conquerors of the Sea theme tacked on and it's a fairly poor fit in my opinion).

That's a nice little progression there that makes perfect sense and has deliciously many shades of gray and makes for grand drama. It all practically requires Ashen Empire to be MA and Ermor's fall to be cataclysmic.

*****

The other side of the coin, Broken Empire... Suddenly, MA Ulm is no longer a logical continuation of the events of EA and the Fall of Ermor. Marignon likewise. C'tis starts having thematical problems, but on a far, far lesser scale. This is all true only as long as Broken Empire Ermor stays in MA. But what if Broken Empire migrates to Late Era while Ashen Empire sneaks back into Middle Era?

Cue following alternate history, drawn from Edi's overactive imagination:

So, some smart cookies in the EA Ermor took a look at how the Empire was going, saw that it'd be a good idea for continued longevity to get out while the getting is good and set themselves up in a comfortable exile in Pythium. Ulm and Marignon and all the others keep on fighting Ashen Empire, with help from Pythium perhaps as well and this goes on through the Middle Era. C'tissian advisers on Death magic come to Pythium to give them aid and together with influences from Arcoscephale and points further give rise to the cultic system that comes into its own in Late Era.

We remember that in the Late Era, the Theurgs have become superfluous in face of the Serpent Cult and its allies the Cult of the Sacred River of Life and Death (another Cult if C'tissian origin). At the same time, Ermorian exiles who may have had more than a little support among the old Theurgic order amalgamate the teachings of the C'tissian River of Life and Death cult and the Theurgic order, giving rise to the Thaumaturgs.

Say they have a very strong presence somewhere in the provinces along the border with old Ermor proper and after the final defeat of the Ashen Empire are looking to get their heritage back. So they take two or three provinces lock, stock and barrel, strike out on their own and make a pact with some new god on the side, that they will serve him and keep Death at bay if this new god helps them make Old Ermor habitable again. So instead of being the one, final gasping speedbump in the way of an emerging Ashen Empire, they would in this history be cleaning up the wreck and trying to put the shards of the broken empire back together again. Wresting the land back from the Ash, as it were, and they'd need power over the dead to make it work.

So, this is not an official history of the Dominions world, but it's the one I prefer because it neatly solves a lot of otherwise complicated continuum problems that make my head explode if I try to work out a Broken Empire Ermor in MA.

Too bad that switching the Broken and Ashen Empire around right now would break a whole lot of crockery with the community and ongoing games. I might be tempted to actually make a modded BE Ermor switched to LA sometime. All it needs is descriptions redone...

[B0rsuk]

To be blunt, some nations weren't meant for progression, but as alternate versions. It seems like Kristoffer decided it was better to put them in anyway instead of just throwing away. Fair enough.

More about Ulm: in a way, Ulm progression is:

1-3-2

At least as far as armour and magic is concerned. I completely forgot Ulm supposedly comes from Ermor. Perhaps because Pythium and Marignon look more convincing for me. Looking at Pythium it's hard to forget it comes from Ermor. If anything, it might be a little too similar. Ok, but as far as units go, MA Ulm has little similarities with EA Ulm, and with Ermor, too. Now that Ulm has inquisition, it may have more in common with Marignon than Ermor, and Marignon just got less unique.

I think Ulm's infantry should be buffed and buffed until their strategic move (1), low MR, and extreme expense become necessary to keep them from being overpowered.

[Shovah32]

Edi, I love you. I'd always just thought of it as Ulm/Marignon/Pythium getting out when they saw things start to go bad but your alternate timeline just seems to make more sense to me.
And of course, Ashen Empire vs MA Marignon could be pretty awesome.

Finally, it would allow one of my favourite nations(MA Ermor) into the late age.

[Sombre]

I don't really see a problem with Ermor's progression through the ages, in a general sense.

They start out as republic style roman nation with old and new faiths vying for control. They are influenced by the sauromancers and go down the path of death magic heavily. Overuse of this death magic has terrible results and you get Ashen Empire.

I know it doesn't fit the descriptions exactly, but it makes sense to me. They slide into an undead nation. MA is just the halfway point.


I agree that EA -> MA Ulm is a bit odd, but given the length of time,.. well Germany changed a lot from migratory tribes to the Holy Roman Empire. I see EA Ulm as a pre-national faction, before 'civilisation' really kicked in and therefore very different. The connection being steel. But EA Ulm is a bit of a weird nation, due to the whole balance issue of the female troops being flat out better than the males, so I basically end up playing them as amazons.

[Saulot]

There are two problems here, as pertain to this thread.

One (this was mentioned several times) is MA Ulm still has basically no influence from either EA Ulm, or Ermor.

Two, your story (which I confess I like and is logical) conflicts with the dominions storyline and atmosphere in one key way, that it is essentially one of decline and doom. This is I suspect why KO went with the Ashen after the Broken, and the Malediction after the Iron Faith.

Obviously the parallel timelines are what caused these problems, and is a good reminder why parallel universes and time travel should not be touched with a ten foot pole, as they tend to muck everything up.

[llamabeast]

So, like Sombre, I see the progression of Ermor as reasonable. It's fine, then a bit corrupted by death magic, then totally destroyed.

Marverni is essentially the pre-occupation Gauls and Celts, EA Ulm the Germanic tribes. By MA, Ermor has conquered them, and then declined so that Ulm, Marignon and Pythium have broken away. Marverni presumably either remains occupied or is no longer important. Ulm is Germanic again, only much further on in their history - it's a medieval rather than barbaric theme. Marignon is France/Spain in the Inquisition, and Pythium is Byzantium. Sorted!

[Edi]

Sombre, Saulot, the reason I place Ashen Empire after EA by preference is because when I once asked about this, Kristoffer said that it was supposed to have happened that way and things got complicated with the introduction of Broken Empire.

The gradual decline model messes with the continuity a lot more than the catastrophic fall, but it's the one we have to live with. The things is that people were asking WTF was up with the Ulm eras and I provided an explanation for it. Black Forest was always supposed to be after the Iron Kingdom just as Pythium was always Byzantium to Ermor's Rome. Ashen Empire and Broken Empire are originally parallel alternates and I think the idea of reclamation never occurred to Illwinter due to the work they had already done on BE in Dom2. So they made it a decline, which then has people asking all these questions about the continuity.

As far as Marverni goes, we have Kristoffer on record saying that Marignon is MA Marverni, meaning the nation changes drastically due to Ermorian influence when going from early to middle era.

[NTJedi]

I like the Halt Heretic trait... it would be nice to see a few summoning spells for units with this trait allowing more than one nation to use this strategy against sacred armies with strong blesses.

[B0rsuk]

It would also strip Ulm of one of its best advantages. Ulm pays a heavy price for it - little magic, slow infantry, poor magic resistance... I'm particularly opposed to summonable commanders with 'halt heretic'.