Tartanians

[Saxon]

I always seem to miss something crucial, so let me ask if I have this straight.

The end game strategy of Tartainians seems to be as follows. Race up the Conjuration tree, then start pumping out one Tartainian a turn. 20% will be commanders, so try to GOR as many of the others as you can.

Forge lots of fun combat toys, with horror helm to boost their existing fear and some protection being on the list where possible. Send them out to create havoc, they are big thugs.

Some will have magic and will either become great SC or forgers/summoners, depending on your paths and needs. These guys are the gravy and will win you the game. Mix and match with other death related things (BOT for example) as desired.

Does any one know the % of commanders who are not feebleminded?

Have I missed something important?

[Zeldor]

You can always heal them, either with healers, Chalice or GoH.

[Endoperez]

Are there any healers that can heal undead? I thought you were limited to the Chalice or Gift of Health.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... right, I guess I did write smth stupid.

[B0rsuk]

Zeldor said:
You can always heal them, either with healers, Chalice or GoH.



I thought tartarians were undead ? (emphasis mine)

[Edi]

Chalice and GoH. If you're lucky enough to find Lyfjaberg, it *might* heal them, but I have no idea.

[Zeldor]

Lyfjaberg?

[Endoperez]

It's one of the few magic sites that can heal afflictions.

[Saxon]

Ok, so GOH would be the most likely, as I have raced up COnjuration and probably am a long way from COnstrution 8.

More generally, is that the basic strategy? Pump them out and GOR them as fast as you can, then overrun the enemy?

Is there a viable response to this strategy? Build your own I suppose. Teleporting SC killer squads.

[Gregstrom]

A couple of dozen Enslave Mind casters can sometimes work.

[lch]

There are five or so different sorts of Tartarians.

First are the Titans: Kings (Scythe) and Queens (Lance). The kings have 3+2+2 random magic picks, the queens 3+2 picks and full slots, making them good GoR candidates in case you need magic diversity or powerful casters. The Kings easily have a magic power of 5 in one of the paths, very powerful.

Then there are the Tartarian Cyclops. Two variants: One with a Lightning weapon and 3E2A magic, making it a very good SC chassis with good self-buffing out of the box: Earth Power, Mistform, Mirror Image, Invulnerability... and Cloud Trapeze! The other has 4E magic, so a little less versatile but more powerful. He has already very good gear and wouldn't require you to necessarily forge equipment for him. Nice for throwing Earthquakes at enemy armies, as they'll do him almost no damage at all, especially with a Ring of Regeneration or so. Both have full slots and poor amphibian, meaning that they can go underwater without extra items!

Next are Monstrum, Monstra and Spirit. They are less powerful than the above, since they are missing some slots. All are missing foot slots, the Monstrum even has no slots except for a head slot. Monstra doesn't have a body slot, too. The Monstrum has flying, though, and the Spirit a 5% regen and poor amphibian. The Spirit has fixed 3E2D picks, the Monstrum 2+2 random picks and the Monstra 2+2+1 picks.

So in general, Monstrum and Monstra are the weakest. Spirit is nice with it's builtin regen rate, which can be improved further with artifacts, but it takes a Flying Carpet instead of Flying Boots, which would mean one less misc slot. The Titans are the best magicians and the Cyclops the most solid SC chassis.

If you have the means to cure them of their afflictions, then they offer the best for their gem price. Otherwise Abominations and Iron Dragons might be good alternatives if you are making more Astral or Earth gems instead of Death. The best thing about Tartarians is the slots that they have.

[sansanjuan]

Ich,
What an awesome summary,
-SSJ

[Xietor]

I always thought the Ctis unique summon, if it could fly, would be a decent counter to tartarians.

All in all, i think an across the board 35 percent reduction in tartarian hps is warranted. And id like to see their summoning cost be raised to 30 a piece so the endgame is not covered with them.

[Twan]

When you don't have the chalice, GoH or the ultra rare healing site tartarians aren't that good, due to their afflictions.

To get a tartarian not blind not feebleminded with his two arms etc... you may have to summon a few.

And 4/5 cost 30 gems with the GoR (and more if you had to empower someone / forge big boosters for one or the other spell).

In fact my complaint with tartarians is they are a little too much random. For 50 gems you may get 5 SCs already commanders with good magic and no terrible affliction in 5 casts, you may get the same but need 100 nature to exploit them...but you may also simply have 5 blind-feebleminded giant meatshields.

In extreme luck or unluck cases, the randomness of tartarian summoning may decide who wins in a tied endgame.

I'd like to see a way to make this less random (ie : scales influence, fewer feebleminded in magic scale, chances to have commanders based on luck, etc) ; or a ritual-buff spell (like dragon master) for tartarian summoners not to summon more tartarians but to have more chances to get usefull ones.

[Xietor]

But with low cost of tar gates, players with goh or chalice have a tremendous advantage in the endgame. While they should have some advantage, i think the advantage is a bit too much.

Maybe there should be an undead healer summons in the game for some balance.

[Jazzepi]

Twan said:
When you don't have the chalice, GoH or the ultra rare healing site tartarians aren't that good, due to their afflictions.

To get a tartarian not blind not feebleminded with his two arms etc... you may have to summon a few.

And 4/5 cost 30 gems with the GoR (and more if you had to empower someone / forge big boosters for one or the other spell).

In fact my complaint with tartarians is they are a little too much random. For 50 gems you may get 5 SCs already commanders with good magic and no terrible affliction in 5 casts, you may get the same but need 100 nature to exploit them...but also a bunch of blind-feebleminded giant chaff.

In extreme luck or unluck cases, the randomness of tartarian summoning may decide who wins in a tied endgame.

I'd like to see a way to make this less random (ie : scales influence, fewer feebleminded in magic scale, chances to have commanders based on luck, etc) ; or a ritual-buff spell (like dragon master) for tartarian summoners not to summon more tartarians but to have more chances to get usefull ones.



Might be interesting if the growth scale effected how likely they were to be feebleminded.

Jazzepi

[lch]

Xietor said:
Maybe there should be an undead healer summons in the game for some balance.


Undead healers wouldn't be balancing, they'd be a catalyst.

[Jazzepi]

I'm glad that there's really only two effective ways to make Tarts. It keeps everyone's nation from becoming clones of each other in the end game, and fighting over the chalice artifact and GoH global is more important if natural healers, which anyone has access to via Faerie Court, is only important if natural healers can't heal undead.

Jazzepi

[Aezeal]

"But with low cost of tar gates, players with goh or chalice have a tremendous advantage in the endgame. While they should have some advantage, i think the advantage is a bit too much."


--> If you think that.. invest in getting GoH or the Chalice.. noone is stopping you

--> GoH can be dispelled, or you could cast it

--> Chalice could be wished for

[Kristoffer O]

> Maybe there should be an undead healer summons in the game for some balance

You are thinking backwards. Maybe undead shouldn't be healable at all.

The chalice is not intended to be a cup used by dead gods to quaff the water of life (although that description sounds a bit cool). It is intended to be a goblet that brave knights drink from.

[RonD]

Those old dead gods sure are insidious, corrupting bastards, aren't they?

[Kristoffer O]

Sure are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've thought about adding a special kind of insanity for them that is incurable.

[Dedas]

More insanity is needed in this game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
Maybe undead shouldn't be healable at all.



Currently tartarians during late game is what I see in high usage during MP games and SP games. Perhaps make a change where it's more difficult for undead to heal, thus fewer complaints about changing their healing status.
One other change should be vampires receiving recuperation which matches their history as well.


Kristoffer O said:
Sure are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've thought about adding a special kind of insanity for them that is incurable.



That's another good idea, if these are undead pretenders from long ago then it makes sense they may retain some memories.

[Twan]

That's another good idea, if these are undead pretenders from long ago then it makes sense they may retain some memories.



Random event : your tartarian claim godhood. He succeeded to convince your army to worship him and now use the province Hubbarton(124) as his capitol.

(add a random nation run by an impossible AI in 124, with your troops there as starting army and the tartarian as pretender) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[lch]

NTJedi said:
One other change should be vampires receiving recuperation which matches their history as well.



Aren't vampires immortal? Then theyll recover from afflictions anyway.

[Xietor]

-> If you think that.. invest in getting GoH or the Chalice.. noone is stopping you

--> GoH can be dispelled, or you could cast it

--> Chalice could be wished for

I am aware of that. What you may not be aware of is that all races are not created equal with respect to getting the chalice or goh, or wishing. (and in every mp game i have played i have had 1 or the other at one point in the game).
But it does limit the choice of races I will play in mp.

It would help balance the races that get no astral magic, like say Ulm or Vanheim, to be competitive in the end game,
when they are facing races that can already wish every turn with their clams if the chalice and goh did not heal undead.

It is adding insult to injury that the s races can wish for the chalice, and pretty much exclude any race like Ulm from ever touching it. Add to it that the chalice/goh make the best endgame units much better, and it is a very great advantage.

Ko's idea of permanent insanity/afflictions for the undead is a good one. Equally good though is increasing the cost and making all of them come out with no afflictions.

[lch]

Alternatively, one could just remove the Chalice from the game, much like people sometimes take Astral Vortex out of the game through a mod if they think it's too strong.

I don't think that this is necessary, though. Late game needs *some* powerful endgame weapon to settle things, if this are Tartarians now or Abominations or something else. If you nerf Tartarians, something else will take their place.

[Xietor]

I am not necessarily calling for a nerf of tartarians. But tartarians with feeblemind, missing an arm, crippled are not equal to tartarians free of afflictions.

I think the chalice and goh are already potent enough without also being the only 2 methods to heal the best endgame unit.

Reasonable minds can differ. My opinion is just that-my opinion. It is not like the game is broke as is, it just places imho undue importance on getting either goh or chalice.

[Lingchih]

Can you wish for Health? If so, would that heal afflictions. Just curious.

[lch]

Lingchih said:
Can you wish for Health? If so, would that heal afflictions. Just curious.


No. You can wish for the Chalice. (wink wink, nudge nudge)

[Lingchih]

Say no more!

[Argitoth]

btw, what happenes if you put in "sldkfjsdf" as your wish? will something happen? Will something happen if you put a single letter or number? Can you put in absolutely nothing?

[Zeldor]

"I cannot give you that"

[B0rsuk]

lch said:
I don't think that this is necessary, though. Late game needs *some* powerful endgame weapon to settle things, if this are Tartarians now or Abominations or something else. If you nerf Tartarians, something else will take their place.



When a small number of spells completely dominates the (end)game, it limits viable strategic options in the game. For me, fewer viable options = worse game. Other (than death or astral) magic paths also very high-level spells, which require lots of gems, strong mages and research. If cost of a spell doesn't even remotely correlate to its value, something is very wrong. (I tried Creeping Doom yesterday)

[NTJedi]

lch said:
much like people sometimes take Astral Vortex out of the game through a mod if they think it's too strong.




Astral Vortex??

Do you mean 'Vortex of Returning' or 'Arcane Nexus' or 'Astral Tempest' or is this a spell from a mod??


==========
==========


_ I agree with the last post from B0rsuk


.

[Cerlin]

Considering the very limited base that one can get and outfit Tartanians, isnt it the other players in the games fault for allowing this? Everyone knows when GoH is cast and could get rid of it. Also if you know a certain faction has lots of Death and Nature, other players should gang up on them if they dont dont want to lose. If that player can make it to the end, get tartanians out and kitted, its the other players fault for allowing this.

[Saxon]

What other common game winners are there in non-victory point MP games? Do nations with other paths have alternative ways to win? I would agree that more options does make things better. At the same time, there need to be some knockout options to win the game, as stalemates are no fun.

[Aezeal]

ehm every race can get GoH or chalice.. just set your pretender up to get it IF you think they are that big a deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, as I said INVEST to get it if you WANT it.

[Twan]

I think the balance problem isn't that tartarians are good and cheap. It's normal that researching level 9 magic and having level 7 mages to cast rituals (+level 4 in another school + an artefact/global eventually) give some advantages.

The problem is no other path gives comparable non unique units (and even many uniques are inferior due to lower hp and lack of feet or other slots). Level 9 constructs, abominations, tarrasques, may be cool, but even GoRed they don't have magic to buff themselves or destroy legions of chaff.

Adding an endgame cost effective SC summon for several paths, and/or magic powers for more creatures once GoR is used would be a good thing for balance.

[B0rsuk]

I would've preferred if Tartarians were simply made less powerful. Dominions3 has enough SC's as it is. Not everyone enjoys playing with dolls.

[Twan]

"Playing with dolls" is a necessity in endgame, you need SCs to carry your artefacts and survive mass destruction spells (or perhaps you may succeed with troops summonable en masse, with more than 20 hp, 20 or more protection, several resist, magical weapons... the problem is... you also need death 7/conjuration 9 to cast legion of wights).

Edit : I wanted to say it's normal that with level 9 research and level 7 skill (tartarians) you beat what other can get with level 8 research and level 5 skill (elemental royalty etc). The less normal thing with death is you also beat anything an elemental/nature only nation can use with level 9 research and level 7+ skill (and you don't fear their mass destruction spells with your SCs).

[lch]

NTJedi said:
Astral Vortex??

Do you mean 'Vortex of Returning' or 'Arcane Nexus' or 'Astral Tempest' or is this a spell from a mod??


Arcane Nexus. My game is broken, don't blame me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[mathusalem]

I agree with Twan : Level 9 + D7 + 10 Death gems + 40 N Gems + GoR / Chalice is already expensive (I dislike CBM for increasing the cost to 25 gems)

maybe less random (once I got a 7A tartarian...), no affliction or decrease the cost of Iron Dragon / Tarrasque / Abo to 10 gems too is an idea

[AreaOfEffect]

May I suggest another solution:

Limit the number of Tartarians.

This solution is, in my opinion, simple and elegant. It still makes Tartarians something worth striving for, yet it doesn't make it the only thing you need to win. The mechanic for this already exists in the game so this concept isn't going to be alien to anyone. Besides, how many ancient dead gods enslaved to the underworld can there possibly be. Set the limit to between eleven and twenty and I'm sure things will be just peachy.

[Kristoffer O]

> Equally good though is increasing the cost and making all of them come out with no afflictions.

Thematically abhorrent idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Like making knights without horses or armor.

[DonCorazon]

I am still learning the game - several of my MP games are around mid-game stage. I never planned to summon tartartians and have no way to do so.

Am I screwed?

These types of threads that suggest one strategy that everyone is striving for are somewhat disturbing as it suggests that all the time I place into strategizing in the early to mid game is really meaningless.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Unscrew!

If the early game goes good you can achieve anything.

Tartarians are not imperative for winning.
They definitely are not imperative for having fun, although they can be fun.

Don't worry too much. Start to worry if you reach end game with one player trying a tartarian strategy. Find his weaknesses etc, but until you stumbe across them you should stay calm.

And there is always 'blight'. Most fun spell there is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Twan]

It's not really hard to developp death 7 with a non death nation if you can have access to a natural death 2 mage (a death amazon with a lucky random or an empowerement) and astral 5 (or astral 3 + earth 2 to make the 2 astral boosters, then the rings of sorcery and wizardry).

(in death you need to make a booster, then summon some spectres to have a D3 one, with the booster he can forge a skullface ; he now have d5, you add the two astral rings and he can summon tartarians ; you may also use a lich for natural d4 and just one ring)

If you play a non death nation without astral it's far harder and you should rather target elemental royalty or blood uniques for SCs.

[RonD]

That depends on how big the game is and how many experienced players are in them. Games on small maps with, say, 5-7 players never reach level 9 spells (or shouldn't, at any rate).

In a big game on a big map - if you really want to win you do need to think about late-game strategy right from the pretender design stage on.

A Tartarian factory is not the only viable late-game strategy, but as you can guess it is one of the strongest.

[RonD]

I love blight, too. And Black Death - which is Blight on steroids.

As for tartarian nerfing - I like the idea of making them un-healable (or making their insanity special). That seems to fit most with their cost. The cost is fairly low to summon one, but it becomes a risky strategy rather than a sure bet. You might get something nice early on, or you might have to summon 30 of then before you get anything useful as other than a meatshield or magic-less thug.

It would make a tartarian strategy easier to do (no need to have the Chalice or GoH)and, most importantly, make it a real strategic *choice*. Some people would see the risk and choose to shoot for something else with their resources, while others might see the upside and go for it.

[Dedas]

Good suggestions, RonD.

[Baalz]

Maybe make GOR'ed Tartarians have a chance of becoming "unleashed" like the Eater of the Dead? That one's thematic...:)

[Kristoffer O]

Speculated in insanity-caused break-frees.

[Foodstamp]

Baalz said:
Maybe make GOR'ed Tartarians have a chance of becoming "unleashed" like the Eater of the Dead? That one's thematic...:)



Not only thematic but fun and hilarious when it happens. Nice idea!

[Tuidjy]

I love the idea of Tartarians becoming unleashed. I do not consider myself a
newbie by any means, but I do not remember playing a game that went past turn 50
and did not end as a Tartarian fest. I'm not saying that Tartarians are the
ultimate weapon, because they are tons of ways of picking them off. But they
are a better deal that anything else, and a Hell of a lot more durable.

I have fielded an army with 15 Tartarian casters, and 20-30 Tartarian meat
shields. Since that game, I tried avoiding large games, but I inherited one
from my uncle. At least two players in that game have Tartarians that I
have seen. This turn I'll become the third, although I'll have to rely on
the non-senile ones. At least I will have plenty of meat shields. And yeah,
I am saying this publicly, and summoning them in a province that borders all
but one of the remaining players because I do not want to be seen as defenseless.

If it were up to me, I would start Tartarians with a 0-100% insanity, I would
give them a 1% increase 50% of the time, and I would have a 10% chance of
going indy every turn they are insane. I would do something similar with
Doom Horrors, and even with Demons and Elemental Royalties. Not that it is
needed, but I would like to see more mages and troops as opposed to
supercombatants.

[llamabeast]

The trouble is in the end game that ordinary troops are too easy to wipe out with remote damage spells and Ghost Riders (Ghost Riders, in particular, is nuts). So in the extreme late game SCs seem like the only option.

I should add that I am not very experienced in the end game, and may be simply wrong.

[OmikronWarrior]

A little off topic, but a question regarding the alternatives to Tartarians: Iron Dragons, Abominations, etc. How does one go about making these units effective for end game? Is GoR still the the way to go? Or any of these units hiding magic paths? Etc.

Also, I think it stinks how end games "devolve" into Tartarian summoning contests.

[Shovah32]

Iron Dragons/Abominations ect are just good units. Probably not as efficent as tartarians, but still nice. An army of units like those backed by some SC killers(mages or your own specially kitted out SCs/thugs) can be pretty hard to remove without really high level magic which often has counters of its own.

[lch]

OmikronWarrior said:
A little off topic, but a question regarding the alternatives to Tartarians: Iron Dragons, Abominations, etc. How does one go about making these units effective for end game? Is GoR still the the way to go? Or any of these units hiding magic paths? Etc.


There's not as much use in GoR'ing the Abominations since they are lacking slots. They're best accompanied by mages that can buff them with, for example, Army of Lead, Mist Warriors, Will of Fates etc.

[vfb]

B0rsuk said:
When a small number of spells completely dominates the (end)game, it limits viable strategic options in the game. For me, fewer viable options = worse game. Other (than death or astral) magic paths also very high-level spells, which require lots of gems, strong mages and research. If cost of a spell doesn't even remotely correlate to its value, something is very wrong. (I tried Creeping Doom yesterday)



I just tried Creeping Doom too. My ants got buffed post-summons, so survivability was not so bad, but they're way too slow to have any impact at all.

It would be really nice if they appeared out of the ground near the enemy, instead of clustered at the caster.

[hnchrist3]

You MUST acquire The Chalice.

You didn't say what nation you play, but as Ermor, I go for Construction-4 (for the skull mentor), and then to Conjuration-8 (for Well-of-Misery), and then back to Construction for the level-8 privilege of unique items, of which "The Chalice" is my top choice, followed by "The Ark", followed by the "Sword of Injustice."

The Chalice will heal the feeble-mindedness of the Tartarians which will not only allow them to be commanders, but in the interrim, to research on the side!

Without a means of healing a Tartarian, they are useless.
(Grab the Chalice.)

[Lingchih]

No, won't work. If you sway away from construction in MP, you will not get the Chalice. Too many players go straight for it. You will only get it by Wishing.

[B0rsuk]

vfb said:

I just tried Creeping Doom too. My ants got buffed post-summons, so survivability was not so bad, but they're way too slow to have any impact at all.

It would be really nice if they appeared out of the ground near the enemy, instead of clustered at the caster.



For a single Creeping Doom you can cast Swarm twice. It's cheaper in all ways: fatigue, gems, research, paths. I don't think you can beat Swarm at its own game. And that's not the point. The spell has 'doom' in it's name, which is either a very strong word, or Kristoffer's humor. I think they are supposed to deal some damage. Unbuffed (I didn't see a point considering they have so low hp etc) they couldn't kill or even harm a single barbarian. 70+ (NNNN) ants versus 30 ordinary barbarians. Barbs do have some protection, but quite low. What am I supposed to use the spell against ? I think they're meant to be used as a weapon, too. Otherwise why give them weak poison ? Thematic reasons ? I think they should have an AN weapon, their damage is 0 and str is pitiful. Summon Animals can actually kill stuff...
Another disadvantage of the ants is that they seem to act as a single squad and are not very good at swarming.

[Lingchih]

Swarm is a very nice spell indeed. Especially when spammmed. Those dragonflies can actually kill SCs, when you cast enough of them.

[DonCorazon]

Lingchih said:
No, won't work. If you sway away from construction in MP, you will not get the Chalice. Too many players go straight for it. You will only get it by Wishing.



Dohh...here is another one these universal strategies. So are most veterans in MP going straight to Construction 8?

I tend to get Const 4 for skull mentors then go for Thaum 2, Evo 2, Conj 2, for site searching. I bounce around a lot to try different spells that seem useful. I have not gone past Const 6 in any of my MP games yet. A couple I am doing well in on the score graphs are in the turn 50ish stage but now I have a feeling I am going to get smoked big time with Tartarians and Chalices. In Capuchin, Everz' Tartarian has already been spotted eyeballing my shores, and Zeldor is shopping his Chalice in Epikbattel. Oh the horror... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

I rarely make clams either. Am I completely nonthreatening?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I may just keep playing in the noob games for years, like the guy who never makes it past 6th grade.

[Lingchih]

No, not necessarily. If you can cast Gift of Health and hold it up, that will heal your Tartarians better than anything, even the Chalice. The problem is in holding it up, when other player see what you are doing.

The Nature nations have the least trouble doing this, but they are not very good at creating a Tartarian factory.

[B0rsuk]

DonCorazon said:
Dohh...here is another one these universal strategies. So are most veterans in MP going straight to Construction 8?




And it's exactly what keeps me from trying MP. It sounds like 90% of spells and units are not used in MP. Is it all about elephants, thugs, SC's, mages ?
(Another thing is that I'm simply not familiar enough with all the items and spells. I don't want to try MP before I finish my Wunderwaffe. )

[DonCorazon]

I actually find MP a blast, its just that the games take so long that as a noob, it takes you 3 months to realize that, while you may be one of the leaders in terms of provinces, gems, and research, you may actually have zero chance to win.

Nevertheless, I get a lot of enjoyment out of building my kingdom and humorously role-playing my nation in MP, but it is comically tragic when, as happened to me in Urapara, suddenly a single golem decked out in tons of gear appears and proceeds from province to province, obliterating huge armies with ease and wiping out all the progress that was achieved over the months.

Even still, I find SP much drier / less thoughtful and can rarely finish a game.

The ideal for me is like chess, its the most fun when played with someone around your same level. If only there were Dominions ratings for players....

[Zeldor]

DonCorazon:

Now you would be able to get Iron Golem and put gear on him and he could surely make a nice fight with my Golem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Twan]

DonCorazon said:
I actually find MP a blast, its just that the games take so long that as a noob, it takes you 3 months to realize that, while you may be one of the leaders in terms of provinces, gems, and research, you may actually have zero chance to win.



IMO it's never the case. If you are first in research you have lots of mages, so you can win even if you have missed the usual SC/artefact based strats. Mages and an higher research than your opponents are the best counters against anything.

You just have to equip well your mages to resist against the kind of mass destruction spells or artefacts your ennemies can use, and script them to cast anti-SC spells (slaying/enslave/paralysis spells if their MR is not too high, or unresistable fatigue or dammage against the unit type -a tartarian and all the undead chaff surrounding him may be killed by a dozen of mages casting wither bones ie -or even solar rays if he is the only target-)

The gems and army size stats are the most misleading ones as magical income (clams etc) don't appear, and army size count an overpowered SC just as one size 6 unit. But if you are first in research (and to a less extent provinces, income) you usually have good chances to win.

[Endoperez]

You need some kind of a save-or-die spell, though. Soul Slay, Petrify, Charm, something. That, or mages who can cast more AN damage spells than your opponent can stack resistances, and perhaps thugs in the event he does manage to get all resistances: Thunder Strike, Frozen Heart, Incinerate and a thug(s) with high-damage AP weapon would probably be enough.

[thejeff]

How do you survive long enough (and expand and get enough gems and gold to recruit mages to research) to get to Construction 8 without researching anything else?

No summons, your mages are almost useless on the battlefield. Some nations could get by just equipping their thug-like recruitables, though they couldn't self-buff. Most would have to rely on normal troops without mage support, and I suppose a pretender SC. Who can't be optimized as an SC since you need him to cover whatever paths you don't have natively for the Chalice and Tartarians.
And you've then got to go to Conjuration 9 to summon Tartarians.

Sure, if you do you'll be in good shape for the end game, but aren't they usually serious wars long before then? Or is this a turtle strategy? Whoever hides without fighting and gets away with it wins?

[Tuidjy]

Not all MP players go for Construction 8. I for example tend to ignore it for a
long time. There are only a few artifacts that are game altering, and it's not
worth sacrificing your early game for a chance of getting them. You can always
wish for them later. The Chalice, Mage Bane, The Death+3 Stick, The Forbidden
Light... even some of those, while awesome, have to be used in combat, and thus
tend to change hands. Mage Bane + Armour of Virtue is a Hell of a pain, though.

[Agema]

Sure Con8 can only reasonably be reached by people not heavily at war? Con gives you pretty weak battlefield capabilities, and getting a few nifty gizmos must be of little joy when your armies are disappearing in large magic blasts and provinces tumbling behind them.

[llamabeast]

Towards the end of one of my early MP games I got the disheartening feeling that everything I was doing was pointless, when people started saying things like "everything you have is useless against Tartarians anyway", "if you haven't been beelining for Construction 8 you've been wasting your time" etc. In my now considerably more experienced opinion, these things simply aren't the case. There are any number of approaches to the whole game and I try something different every time.

Of course, if you actually want to win a large game with a lot of players, you will need some cunning plan to be powerful in the early, mid and late games, and different things will be needed at each stage. (Though if you are playing a smallish game with 8 players or so, the true late game stage will never even be reached.)

Anyway, my advice is: Don't be disheartened. It is absolutely NOT the case that the game boils down to a few minmaxed strategies in competitive multiplayer. That is why this game is so awesome.

Incidentally I don't have a minmaxing mindset at all, and tend to do pretty well in multiplayer. I think quite a bit of that comes from success in diplomacy though.

[Sombre]

I think it comes from people giving you a free pass to territory and not attacking you for some reason. I followed a few games and it seems like you were obviously the big threat but people were continuing their private wars regardless. Digress might elaborate further : P

[DonCorazon]

LLamabeast, that is good to hear. I love the diplomatic / and quasi-RPG aspects of MP, even to the extent of sometimes taking an action that may not be in my nation's best interest (going to war on behalf of an ally I like for example). I prefer fun to winning but it is encouraging to hear though that there are multiple paths to victory because at least having a chance to win makes gameplay more exciting.

Otherwise, the so-called "strategy" in a game is actually just formulaic knowledge of what you need to do to win, like memorizing a recipe (research x, summon x, build x, kill !!!) -- not what strategy should be which is the ability to analyze a unique situation and try to come up with novel responses, which is what Dominions seems to offer with its abundance of content and options.

Anyway, sorry to get this thread off topic.

Now speak wise traveller of these dread entities known as the Tartanians and how we might use them to further our dreams of conquest.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[NTJedi]

Within one of my recent MP games which has ended, my opponent attacked several different provinces with fully decked Tartarians... even my blessed Lanka demons could not scratch them.

I know of counter strategies for bringing them down, yet their default stats are so impressive... and when combined with items they're so powerful.


I've listed some ideas for changes:

1) Improve tartarian counter spells such as maggots and blindness.

2) Lower magic resistance of tartarians... they've been killed a decayed brain shouldn't be as strong as a full healthy pretender.

3) Introduce a set of new spells which remove elemental resistances for a single target.

4) Use Kristoffers suggestion of a new type of insanity for tartarians.

5) Add new single handed weapons which damage undead.

[hnchrist3]

Is it I, or does going to level-9 in Conjuration make little sense for all but a few.

Literally, who would do that EXCEPT to conjure Tartarians? (Or some freaky s**t.)

As Ermor, I go for Construction 4 (Skull Mentor), then Conjuration-8 (Well of Misery), and then back to Construction-8 for unique items:
#1: The Chalice.
#2: The Sword of Injustice.
#3: The Ark.

If I acquire all three, you are going to see such wrath as you have never seen before.
====================================
As stated by Agema, if under war, your chances of acquiring the knowledge are slim.
{Possibly Ermor aside, as he only needs to hold his home province to acquire vast research.}
[I personally (as Ermor) have been reduced to my home provence alone, and have expanded to win the game.]
================================================== =========
================================================== =====
In the end, Tartarians are useless, UNLESS you have a cure:

[hnchrist3]

Is it I, or does going to level-9 in Conjuration make little sense for all but a few.

Literally, who would do that EXCEPT to conjure Tartarians? (Or some freaky s**t.)

As Ermor, I go for Construction 4 (Skull Mentor), then Conjuration-8 (Well of Misery), and then back to Construction-8 for unique items:
#1: The Chalice.
#2: The Sword of Injustice.
#3: The Ark.

If I acquire all three, you are going to see such wrath as you have never seen before.
====================================
As stated by Agema, if under war, your chances of acquiring the knowledge are slim.
{Possibly Ermor aside, as he only needs to hold his home province to acquire vast research.}
[I personally (as Ermor) have been reduced to my home provence alone, and have expanded to win the game.]
================================================== =========
================================================== =====
In the end, Tartarians are useless, UNLESS you have a cure:
Either "Gift of Health", which is questionable, or:
"The Chalice" which is your panacea.
The Chalice is probably THE MOST underrated artifact.
It's ability to cure is unprecedented, and it can be teleported around the map (by the nature of Laboratories).

------------------------
Faithfully submitted,
--HNC3.

[Digress]

The Chalice is probably THE MOST underrated artifact

Ummm .... I don't think so.

Its a super, duper artifact that is desired by all by the time the game is approaching its later stages. Everyone can find uses for it - though often its held to keep it out of the hands of the player with the most efficient tartarian factory.


I love the idea of a new type of insanity for Tartarians - especially ones where they proclaim themselves a new pretender and raise up an army of their ancient (and very dead) followers.

Other just plain nutty tartarian moves would add spice.

"Cloud trapeze deep into your opponents lands a cause havoc you say ? How about I raise a temple to my/yours/our greatness ? or attack random neighbouring province ? or place myself under the command of one of your enemies because their pretender reminds of girlfriend I once had in Titan School ?"

[NTJedi]

Most awesome thinking Digress

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Lingchih]

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that this post is named Tartanians, instead of Tartarians? Not a huge big deal, but it might make searching harder in the future.

[Saxon]

NTJedi,

Not sure more anti-undead spells are really a good idea. Ermor already has enough problems and any such spells will see a wider application against undead.

The insanity idea is fun though, I like that.

LingChih,

Sorry about the spelling. Strangely, many of the words in the game do not come up in spell check and most of my posts are made while “working for a living” so I don’t have the manual handy.

[Lingchih]

Hehe. No prob. I will just have to remember in the future, when I search for this stuff, that I might need to search for Tartanians as well.

[Darkstone]

Or you could just search under Tartarians, and search the body of posts as well.

[ComTrav]

There, this I think would show up in a search for what you'd be looking for, without having to go through all the extra posts you'd get from a subject search.

[Endoperez]

Now that I posted this reply with the subject changed, even title search should show this thread.

In other news, there are no tartar-tartans in Dominions.

EDIT: I was late, is seems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Saxon]

If you are fighting Oceana, you can have the Tartanians prepare tartar sauce before attacking, as it makes the rations tastier…

Alternativly, we could have 10% of summoned Tartanians actually be Holmberg chefs who have a +7 ability to prepare tarts. This would boost supply for the army...

[Digress]

Returning to the "make Tartarians a little bit unpredictable" theme.

Maybe some of them should be heretics - though by the time they are available in the game this will result in micromanagement rather than anything else but I reckon it makes sense.

Raise to dead god - well it may attract followers and reduce your pretenders dominion.

[Twan]

The idea of insane tartarians is fun and thematic but would add even more randomness in endgame if it works like standard insanity.

Actually the lucky guy getting some tartarian commanders (20N discount to use them) without too many afflictions can have an huge advantage. With random insanity in addition a lucky player will have one more huge bonus when other's tartarians become mad.

So I'd prefer a not too random system, with choices giving more chances to keep control or not (an idea : special insanity with % based on gem value or research level of items carried ; the more a tartarian recieve high level items the more he feels powerful and risks to become unleashed and claim godhood for himself). Then it becomes a strategic choice to take the risk and gear a tartarian with artefacts etc..., or use them with just their built in items to be sure to keep control (but making them more vulnerable of course).

[kasnavada]

the more a tartarian recieve high level items the more he feels powerful and risks to become unleashed and claim godhood for himself)



Actually, using this for every unit and commander in the game might be even funnier than leaving it only for tartarians...

[CUnknown]

Perhaps a relatively easy fix would be to just make all of them (or maybe 99%) non-commanders. The only really rediculous deal is when they pop out for only 10 death, being fully commanders with spells. If you have to GoR them, all of a sudden they are really not insanely cheap anymore, so being conjuration-9 after all, I don't see much of a problem with them.

[Karlem]

I think that the problem is that they are really good for high levels of Death and Conjuration, and there isn't something similar for other paths of magic and research. Conjuration 9 should be quite strong, but enchantment, alteration and the others should be at least equally powerfull, not so behind.

[Jazzepi]

Lets see enchantment 9 has...

Arcane Nexus and Gift of Nature's Bounty

Alteration 9 has...

Army lead/gold, wish, utterdark

Jazzepi

[Zeldor]

Exactly. It is rather comparing tartarians to summons from other schools. For example nature summons, that are well... pathetic?

I just wish there were more 8 and 9 level national summons. I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 4 Dragon Kings.

[Karlem]

So, if all the schools have something strong at level 9 then what is the problem? If you have death go for Conj, if you have nature Enchant, earth alteration....

You do not need to balance tartarians against all the other summons, but death/conj9 to the other magic/schools9.

[Kristoffer O]

> I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 4 Dragon Kings.

I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 8 dragon kings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would guess that it depends on me making stuff. I tend to focus on one nation at a time. Since national summons was new in dom2 most nations didn't have many at that time. T'ien Ch'i got some, but not that many. Those that they have are still quite ugly, and I wouldn't have problems coming up with a dozen or two new national summons for them. It's basically a matter of what I prioritize and what inspires me atm.

Besides working with Gath I have flelt like making some new japanese critters, mostly because I feel I didn't make enough of them. THere are several that I feel are missing.

T'ien Ch'i is in the same boat, but I have not thought too much about them.

Machaka need more attention as well, both with their existing troops and should get some new summons and two new eras.

The vanir and the jotuns are still behind in the national summons race and should be looked over. I find it annoying that the old norse nations have recieved less attention than most other nations.

There should be more middle eastern summons. There are plenty to use.

There should be national blood summons based on nation. How thematic are devils in a far eastern setting?

There is clearly room for more Zoroastrian beings apart from the spentas and yazatas.


I would not mind having them all, but it will take a while, and all will not happen.

[B0rsuk]

Kristoffer: I think LA Atlantis deserves some better underwater recruitables. At the moment they have some coral light infantry and Consort. Don't forget they supposedly made a pact with a dark god to lead them back into the sea.. But current situation almost discourages players from pursuing underwater provinces. I think LA Atlantis should get something special from underwater castles. Or at least an amphibian summon that can only be cast underwater.

[Kristoffer O]

Lucky you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Seems I will be playing LA Atlantis in a team game about now. I'll keep my eyes open http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[sansanjuan]

The vanir and the jotuns are still behind in the national summons race and should be looked over. I find it annoying that the old norse nations have recieved less attention than most other nations.



KO - and you're from Sweden for gosh sakes!

[Sawyer]

It sounds like something the modding community could comfortably address until KO and JK get on it.

Funny though, everyone just makes their own nations or pretenders.

[Endoperez]

There are some balance mods, and some "reimagined nation" mods, and an EA Machaka nation, and I did a small mod that added an Anansi giant spider pretender for Machaka... Other than that, it's probably because the nations all have their own themes and stories, and they are very strong. It's like, well, sacrilege... The Code of Illwinter is Law, and we are Not Worthy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Oh, and the hero mods sometimes add or modify the national heroes, sometimes adding additional descriptions or links to other nations.

[lch]

There are variations of existing nations, like Ulm Reborn for example. The thing is that it's usually the new item graphics that pull people into trying out a mod nation. Just fiddling with some numbers doesn't win you friends among the players.

[MaxWilson]

Perhaps people are reluctant to mess with existing nations because they feel they are "supposed" to be the way they are? Static vs. dynamic. When KO says T'ien Chi needs dragon kings, does that increase the probability that a modder will add dragon kings to T'ien Chi instead of creating a new nation around dragons?

-Max

[Twan]

Agreed.

My EA Machaka nation was mostly made to learn/test modding, without spending time making sprites, before making original ones for the Greyhawk mod (but I'm still so bad for making them, it's one of reasons I finally stopped this big project, with ugly sprites compared to Sombre or Amos ones, it's pointless to make nation mods nobody will use -even me I prefer to play with their beautiful works than to test my own mods :/ -).

[fictionfan]

Yeah,
Astral can summon imaginary creatures or creatures from another world.
Water can have a ritual spell to empower a unit with huge Def that last forever.
Earth creates some improved better golem
Fire or blood could have a kamikaze unit that sacrifices it's self to to kill a SC (like a Tartanian).
Nature could have a more powerful maggots for stronger mages (I do not think this is the best idea, but I am just giving possibilities)
Air could have a powerful spell that will blow the enemy army away (retreat)size negating.

What I am saying is every kind of magic needs a killer spell and/or to make diversity. It can't just be death that makes a army of SC.

PS: although in fairness wish is also a awesome spell

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Exactly. It is rather comparing tartarians to summons from other schools. For example nature summons, that are well... pathetic?


Hmm... I wouldn't call a Tarasque pathetic. With a great stat line, about 250 HP, regeneration, recuperation, poison cloud, etc. a simple astral empowerment is enough to complete the 'super beast' with luck and ethereal. With water empowerment you can even get the 'ultimate beast' with breath of winter and quicken self. Since you don't have to buy anymore equipment except two misc, it's not too expensive if you don't go for the 'ultimate' way. You don't even need a high construction for that.
I used Tartarians too, and sure they are powerfull, but after a few fights you can rename them to 'Affliction Lord'. I think I prefer the Tarasque.

[Karlem]

Have you tried to put a regen ring on a Tartarian? They get quite less aflictions with it.

[kasnavada]

Tartarian : needs nature gems, death gems, a lvl 4 nature caster.
Fairy court : needs lvl 5 nature caster, heals affilctions.

I don't see a problem...

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Have you tried to put a regen ring on a Tartarian? They get quite less aflictions with it.


Yeah, sure! But let's face it, if you've reached Conj 9 you're not just fighting some goblins. Regeneration is not enough for a SC. Therefore, Gift of health is almost a must with Tartarians, especially if they have expensive equipment.

[NTJedi]

ArkhanTheBlack said:

Exactly. It is rather comparing tartarians to summons from other schools. For example nature summons, that are well... pathetic?


Hmm... I wouldn't call a Tarasque pathetic. With a great stat line, about 250 HP, regeneration, recuperation, poison cloud, etc. a simple astral empowerment is enough to complete the 'super beast' with luck and ethereal.



Actually a single or dual astral empowerment makes it very vunerable to mind duel. Not too much of a problem in SP games, but definitely an achilles heel in MP games.


ArkhanTheBlack said:
I used Tartarians too, and sure they are powerfull, but after a few fights you can rename them to 'Affliction Lord'. I think I prefer the Tarasque.


The Tartarians are easily more powerful due to the number of available item slots and they already arrive with magic paths when not feebleminded. It's easy for Tartarians to avoid future afflictions using a single regeneration item and a single luck item. The overall package deal comparrison is why MP gamers use nature gems to GiftofReason Tartarians instead of summoning a Tarrasque.

I'm hoping the upcoming "Shattered Soul" trait will nerf Tartarians to the point where other SCs are seen more often during late game. It seems no one knows the effects of "Shattered Soul".

[ArkhanTheBlack]

The Tartarians are easily more powerful due to the number of available item slots and they already arrive with magic paths when not feebleminded.


Well the wizard thing is certainly true, but you can also be successfull by just fighting in melee. And Tartarians need to buy a lot of equipment just to get equal with the Tarasque.



It's easy for Tartarians to avoid future afflictions using a single regeneration item and a single luck item.


Well, my Tartarian had even more and it didn't help. However with gift of health it looks a bit different...



Actually a single or dual astral empowerment makes it very vunerable to mind duel. Not too much of a problem in SP games, but definitely an achilles heel in MP games.


Can't comment on that since the spell doesn't exist in the manual.

But since everyone seems to be complaining, you've probably a point...

[Endoperez]

The spell is Magic Duel, where an Astral mage challenges an Astral mage and boosters don't count. There's enough randomness that you can't trust your S9 pretender to kill every opposing astral mage, but if it's a bunch of S1 or S2 mages against a Gift-of-Reasoned, empowered combatant, that doesn't matter.

[hunt11]

This may work as a buff for Tartarians with out the whole shattered soul. This could ever work as a global or a random event, the keepers of the Tartarians trying to get them back in their cell. It would work like a horror attack but would go for more powerful Tartarians first, so the more items, the more health, and the more magic they have the more likely they would attack. I have no ideas of what the stats of the keepers would need to be, but something on par or better to a Doom Horror would work. Also if enough Tartarians where in a province the whole province would be attacked, and most likely destroyed.

[NTJedi]

Endo is right... it's Magic Duel. So many spells sometimes the names get mixed.

[Ironhawk]

ArkhanTheBlack said:
Well the wizard thing is certainly true, but you can also be successfull by just fighting in melee. And Tartarians need to buy a lot of equipment just to get equal with the Tarasque.



No, the Tarasque is by no means equal to any non-crippled Tartarian. Not by a long shot. You need to play some opponents who know how to use thier units and you will quickly find yourself defeated if you depend on the Tarasque.

[NTJedi]

Ironhawk said:
No, the Tarasque is by no means equal to any non-crippled Tartarian. Not by a long shot. You need to play some opponents who know how to use thier units and you will quickly find yourself defeated if you depend on the Tarasque.



I completely agree... and hope the "Shattered Soul" trait nerfs the Tartarians enough for us to see more late game strategies.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Well, how would the Tartarian be equipped? And no construction 8 stuff please!

[Ironhawk]

Uhh... ok clearly you have not been savaged by Tartarians yet so allow me to shed some light on the subject. Tartarians are, for all intents and purposes, like mini-Pretenders. They have great HP, good abilities (being undead mostly), and have magic paths. This means that they can do... well basically anything.

For spellcasting they have easy access to various devastating battle spells: Fog Warriors, Army of Gold/Lead, Rain of Stones, Earthquake, Weapons of Sharpness - the list goes on. The ability to cast any one of these spells utterly blows away the Tarasque in value. But wait, theres more!

Not to mention thier magical prowess, Tarts also make tremendously good SC chasis. They have full slots, are undead so no Encumbrance and various resists, and have great HP. If you dont know the standard SC loadouts, then take this anti-personnel one for example: Frost Brand, Lucky Coin, S.Skullcap, Jade Armor, Flying Boots, RoR, AmA. Again, since you dont appear to have used SCs much, note how extra value is gained from the full slots not only from Flying (which is insanely useful in combat and out) but also the ability to modularly switch out your weapons to get the most bang for your buck - whereas the Tarasque is just forced to bite people or whatever its attack is.

And if that wasnt enough, most Tarts have paths which are awesome for buffing, too! So you can cast whatever of that variety of spells you have available out-of-the-box: Mistform, Invulnerability, Soul Vortex, etc. This makes an already good chasis even more powerful.

[Micah]

Don't forget Cloud Trapeze, for all of your spot-killing needs.

[Jazzepi]

ArkhanTheBlack said:
Well, how would the Tartarian be equipped? And no construction 8 stuff please!



You can forge 80% of the good stuff at level 4.

Jazzepi

[hunt11]

not unless you went an SC of doom most of the stuff they get will be from either level 4 or 6 construction, because all a SC really needs to be effective is fear, a couple buffs, high MR and an area of effect attack

[PvK]

...and a way not to get killed and zero fatigue...

[hunt11]

well since undead can't get fatigued that part isn't a problem

[DonCorazon]

While we are at it, how would you protect your tartarians from sleep vines? Tarts are undead, but not lifeless (which IIRC grants immunity to sleep), so I assume they will get fatigued from the vines like anyone else.

I am about to get ravaged by a horde of Pangean mannikins and like to trim down the shrubbery a bit.

[hunt11]

thats why you need a high MR so that the spell does not even work

[PvK]

Yes hunt11, I was just contributing to your "all a SC really needs to be effective is" statement.

I agree Tartarians are hugely powerful for the gem cost.

As for sleep vines, well Tartarians tend to be strong mages, not just fighters...

[hunt11]

ok sorry bout that, anyway any updates on what shattered soul will do

[kasnavada]

manikin ? spell ?

I killed a MR 29 golem with them. That sounds strange. I may have been lucky though.

[DonCorazon]

i am facing a 1000 of them. golems should have not been affected by the sleep vines since they are lifeless.

[Baalz]

As far as I know being lifeless doesn't effect the sleep vines, it's just fatigue damage. MR helps, of course, but considering the number of attacks made by a swarm of vine critters even somebody with a very high MR is going to fail a couple rolls out of hundreds of hits...

[Micah]

High prot + high MR with some reinvig can deal with sleep vine critters. But I do mean high, like 30+ in both. And luck, of course.

[DonCorazon]

I guess ethereal is no use since vines probably count as magic weapons. Doesnt seem easy to get MR 30+ and still have a lot of offensive power. For example, lead shield will help MR but charcoal shield would be nice to burn the critters.
Jade armor nice to wack them faster but sounds like Rainbow Armor is much better for the MR plus Reinvig.

I'll see what I can do. The horde could strike next turn so I don't have too much time to forge.

[Karlem]

What about eye shield? No eyes=no attack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Ironhawk]

An SC doesnt seem like the best choice to fight an army of mainikins. Can't you just use like a boatload of archers and flaming arrows?

[DonCorazon]

He will use darkness and arrow fend, and I don't have fire magic or high level Thaum.

[llamabeast]

How about Earthquake/Rain of Stones? Any chance of using one of them?

[Wick]

kasnavada said:
Tartarian : needs nature gems, death gems, a lvl 4 nature caster.
Fairy court : needs lvl 5 nature caster, heals affilctions.

I don't see a problem...



Healing doesn't work on undead, you need the Chalice or GoH.