Shattered Soul for tartarians. Do tell !

[Foodstamp]

In the new patch notes, it looks like Tartarians are going to get changed a bit. If this is what I think it is, I am pretty excited http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

Shattered soul sort of sounds like it might be a tartarian only form of insanity or something.

[Foodstamp]

I am hoping they become unleashed like the Eater of the Dead.

[Endoperez]

Eater of the Dead can be captured back, so someone would set up a 'Tartarian hatchery', wait until a Tartarian runs afoul, enslave it, GoR it and use it without any problems.

[Xietor]

if they went insane deep in enemy territory though, it may be your opponent that charms them , and not you.

And it is not easy to charm one with high mr and mr boosting items.

[Endoperez]

That's why you'd set up a Tartarian Hatchery where the tartarians would be until they revoked your rule and became independent. You could even give them non-cursed items that make them vulnerable to magic if any exist...

[Xietor]

I am assuming they can go insane more than once. There is no cure for insanity. Eventually you have to send them out away from your hatchery if they are to serve any purpose.

Sort of like the LA Ryleh insanity. There is a chance it can hit at any time.

[Starshine_Monarch]

I'm pretty sure that Banner of the North Star recuces the MR of the wielder, but it might be a tad expensive for just that one purpose.

[lch]

I don't understand this hatchery idea. And I'd suppose that the Tartarians lose their items when they "revolt".

[Foodstamp]

If not, at the very least they would lose their items if they were captured and GOR'd right? So I am still hoping that is how it is going to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

New Constr 8 Artifact:

The Crucifix- requires 4f 3h to forge.

1h weapon that can only be used by a living unit with h2 magic. 10 an damage, secondary effect(destroy Evil).

Any undead or demon hit by the Crucifix will be instantly reduced to ashes. Effect is not resistible by any means. Immortal undead will not be raised back in the capital as there is nothing left to raise.

[Endoperez]

I was referring to the post that said they'd become independent like Eater of the Dead. Eater of the Dead becomes independent by means of an event that happens when it changes size and transforms into different unit. Once it has become that unit, it can't become independent again if it's enslaved or charmed.

It might actually be able to do the revolting, if the insanity of the tartarians causes the revolt without shape-changing into the original, living form (Cyclops into living Cyclops etc). In that case, the reason for the revolt (shattered soul) would stay constant even if it was caught again after the first revolt.

Xietor - nice idea, but there are no holy gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

It's probably just insanity, but one can wish aye? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Xietor]

you would need fire/astral gems like the ark, just need h magic to forge it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Maybe instead of "destroy evil," the effect would be to "save soul" or "release soul" allowing the undead or demon to RIP.

A weapon to kill a tartarian instantly would be a good thing-though i do not think they should be common.


Another good counter to sc's would be to add "arm loss" to a constr 6 2h weapon like the gate cleaver, and a "limp" to a constr 6 2h weapon like a Scythe that would seem to be used as a sweep at the legs.

A legless or armless sc would be of limited value!

[lch]

Endoperez said:
I was referring to the post that said they'd become independent like Eater of the Dead. Eater of the Dead becomes independent by means of an event that happens when it changes size and transforms into different unit. Once it has become that unit, it can't become independent again if it's enslaved or charmed.


I see. I don't expect them to transform either. Even a lot less than keeping commander status, actually.

[vfb]

What does Shattered Soul actually do? Does it actually cause the 'unleashed' effect, like Baalz's idea in the Tartarians thread? (KO: "Speculated in insanity-caused break-frees.") Or is it something milder, similar to R'lyeh insanity? (KO: "I've thought about adding a special kind of insanity for them that is incurable.") Or can they no longer be healed even by the Chalice/GoH? (KO: "Maybe undead shouldn't be healable at all.")

As someone who's never seen the Eater of the Dead, what is the chance per month of becoming unleashed? What happens when it's unleashed? It just attacks the current province? If it's in a province with a castle, and it attacks the current province, I'd imagine it fights outside the castle, not inside, is that correct?

[Aezeal]

I've only played with it once.. but as far as I know there is no chance of it getting released.. it transforms into a nasteir beasty after some kills... after 3-4 of these it can transform again and then it's too powerfull to control (but not to kill :d)

it's in it's description too

the rest someone else needs to answer

I think it will be an incurable insanity effect though since that is what KO was hinting at in some thread and since the name shatterd soul just seems more to fit with not working properly than with getting full control over itself and wanting to be "tha man" again.

[Endoperez]

Eater of the Dead will devour corpses and grow, until it's unleashed. The Unfettered will then move from province to province, still growing. It will start battle with just few hundred hp, but eventually it will have regen 200 or so, and will have 1000 or so hp in just few turns after the battle starts.

[Randvek]

Endoperez said:
Eater of the Dead will devour corpses and grow, until it's unleashed. The Unfettered will then move from province to province, still growing. It will start battle with just few hundred hp, but eventually it will have regen 200 or so, and will have 1000 or so hp in just few turns after the battle starts.



That's the long way of saying "Eater of the Dead knows how to party."

[NTJedi]

It would be great to see more summons which can turn independent and randomly move on the map the same as 'eater of the dead'.

A spell like phantasmal attack or ghost riders yet the survivors stay on the map and continue marching randomly.

[vfb]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/vfb_dominions/event.jpg

[Kristoffer O]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lingchih]

I remember that episode of the original Star Trek.

[Tyrian]

I had an idea of a nation based on a crystal entity before that!

[NTJedi]

vfb said:
What does Shattered Soul actually do?



{{PRIMARY QUESTION}}
So what's the official details on "Shattered Soul" ?

{{Side Questions}}
Can the unit turn independent with random traveling ?

Is this another type of insanity effect which continues to increase?

Will this effect existing games or only new games ?

[fictionfan]

I hope they do the revolt random event

[NTJedi]

It looks like none of the beta testers have investigated/tested this new trait. I guess we'll find out this weekend.

[thejeff]

NTJedi said:
It looks like none of the beta testers have investigated/tested this new trait. I guess we'll find out this weekend.



Or aren't allowed to talk about it.

[Daynarr]

thejeff said:

NTJedi said:
It looks like none of the beta testers have investigated/tested this new trait. I guess we'll find out this weekend.



Or aren't allowed to talk about it.



Bingo!!!

[kasnavada]

I guess we'll find out this weekend.



I prepared the pop-corn and some special-made flaming oil.

The pop-corn is to watch the flame that are sure to result from the change that will result from this new trait (or absence of change). It's more entertaining than a movie !
And the flaming oil is to be sure that the discussion will heat up until critical mass is reached.

[NTJedi]

I actually believe this change will be appreciated for the majority of Dominions_3 gamers. I don't see why anyone would be upset/annoyed for a much needed nerf on Tartarians which will hopefully open more late game strategies.

I could see gamers being upset/annoyed if this made Tartarians stronger.

[Tuidjy]

Am I glad my enemies in DangerPudding surrendered, or what? I have 20 fully
equipped Tartarians, and maybe 50 non-commander ones. If those had turned
against me, it would have been... interesting.

Anyway. Does anyone know what the Shattered Soul does?

I hope it is something that makes Tartarians less ubiqious in late game, but not
useless. There isn't much a non-giant, non-blood nation can throw at Jarls,
Fomorian Kings, Major Demons, etc...

As for the Tarrask, what a joke. I cannot beleive anyone what rank it anywhere
close to a Tartarian. Lets take the Lightning Bolt Cyclops. With my standard
kit, he has a Firebrand, a Charcoal shield, a Starshine cap, a Rainbow armour,
boots of Quickness, a regeneration ring, and a luck amulet.

He can cast Resist Lightning, which makes him quad-immune and Iron Will which
brings his MR to ridiculous heights. He can teleport, he can increase his own
protection if necessary with Earth spells, Mistform, and Mirror image, he can
ruin an army of humanoid mages with Rain of Stones, he can protect his army of
humanoid mages with Army of Gold/Lead/etc...

And the Tarrask can do what? Kill Monkey PD?

[Twan]

NTJedi said:
I don't see why anyone would be upset/annoyed for a much needed nerf on Tartarians which will hopefully open more late game strategies.



If the change is like the ones proposed above, I think most player will be ok... except those having invested in a lot of tartarians in an ongoing MP game.

There is more chances to see some debates about patching or not some games (already in late stage), than flamewars about the general interest of a nerf.

[Agrajag]

I'm more in favour of creating some more awesome tartarian equivalents than nerfing tartarians.
Well, maybe some gentle nerfing, but add some more uber awesomes to throw around, it will only make things more interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DonCorazon]

Agrajag said:
I'm more in favour of creating some more awesome tartarian equivalents than nerfing tartarians.
Well, maybe some gentle nerfing, but add some more uber awesomes to throw around, it will only make things more interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I agree. Tarts are useful for nations without innate SCs like Niefel Jarls or Seraphs. Now it looks like we'll need to rely on Monkey PD level Tarraqsues. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kristoffer O]

I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.

[Kristoffer O]

Shattered soul is currently a form of insanity. Some orders are different, but it's basically the same as insanity. It is quite simple. Revolting or ritual casting were not implemented. Current chance is 20% IIRC.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.



Off-topic from the Tartarian discussion, but since you are the ultimate ascended pretender deciding the fate of our future games... I'll jump off-topic with ya!

The seraph is very powerful, yet other powerful ones also exist such as the gorgon who has petrification by default. At a price of 100 astral gems I don't think we have to worry about wishing for seraphs as a popular late game strategy.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, that sounds kind of fun. SCs wandering (semi-) randomly around the map, wiping out PD and occasionally getting killed. Very thematic.

-Max

[NTJedi]

MaxWilson said:
Oh, that sounds kind of fun. SCs wandering (semi-) randomly around the map, wiping out PD and occasionally getting killed. Very thematic.

-Max



This is also what I hope shattered soul will be doing.

[calmon]

Kristoffer O said:
I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.



/signed!

I never understand why a national spell which cost 144 gems (seraph + some other stuff) are simple useable for every other nation via wish (both research 9 spells). The costs 100 astral + 20 nature are even cheaper!

[sansanjuan]

Kristoffer O said:
Shattered soul is currently a form of insanity. Some orders are different, but it's basically the same as insanity. It is quite simple. Revolting or ritual casting were not implemented. Current chance is 20% IIRC.



I'm insane ~20% of the time too!..

SSJ (Undead Titan)

PS Of all the Tart balance knobs you could turn (fewer slots, higher cost, weaker paths, lower stats) that was probably the best.

[Edi]

I heartily support making Seraph and other very powerful nation specific summons unwishable. There's also a mechanism for it to be done retroactively. The seraph is the most obvious one, but only because nobody outside the beta group has seen the unique summons of Hinnom.

*shudder*

Everything else is more or less okay for the price, but those...just no.

[Agrajag]

Lame, I'm disappointed.
I wish for more awesome commanders, the next reply is an agreement.
Then I see two posts by KO, yet none of them say he plans to add some more uber awesome stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Thanks for telling us about the shattered soul though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(Then again, Edi does imply that at least one nation specific awesome will be added in the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

[ano]

calmon said:

Kristoffer O said:
I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.



/signed!

I never understand why a national spell which cost 144 gems (seraph + some other stuff) are simple useable for every other nation via wish (both research 9 spells). The costs 100 astral + 20 nature are even cheaper!


Each of the Harbingers you call "stuff" is worth 25 gems and is VERY good for this price and is a perfect medium SC. If you count Seraph as 100 gems (even not counting one more turn and 20 gems for GoR) then 44 gems for THREE Harbingers and 9 Angels is more than a fair price.
I actually don't see why there should be unwishable units. Wish should be able to do virtually anything. I can understand it about horrors but that is probably all.

[BesucherXia]

I have just got another idea:
Is it possible to make some uber awesome units limited in "length of service", just like mercenaries?

A seraph could be glad to help your nation expanding its belief, yet he would decide to return heaven sometime since he could not be fully bond by a lesser being like your pretender.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.



Why just Seraph?

How about pretenders, heros, all other unique national summons as well?

Indeed, why not look at all the lvl 9 spells and nerf them? Lets make the endgame just not worth bothering with, after all you have only spent days/weeks of your free time playing the game where you can get to using powerful stuff.

I not being in anyway hostile to you K.O. you do a fantastic job and Dom3 is great but why the constant drive to nerf anything half decent or useful?

Seraphs are not even a endgame problem and at 100S + 20N + equipment, how many do you see running around by turn 80 or so? Not many, outside of a very rare megagame.

The only justification would be on thematic grounds but that opens a can of worms, if Seraphs are to be Marignon/Pythium only then should not every unique national summon be national specific? Not to mention unique national heros, pretenders.

[Edi]

ano said:
I actually don't see why there should be unwishable units. Wish should be able to do virtually anything. I can understand it about horrors but that is probably all.


Like I said, nobody outside the beta group has seen some of the new stuff...

[Lingchih]

Kristoffer O said:
I've thought about making Seraph unwishable, but thought that such a change should not come until you have been allowed to discuss the matter.



Well yes, they are overpowered, even for the price, but I am just about to get one in an MP game, and I've never had one of my own before, so please wait a few weeks on that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

I'm sympathetic to Megalobob's position, but there _is_ a limit to Wish's power. Just like in D&D, a single spell doesn't have the power to change the world, even if it is called Wish. That's why it takes multiple wishes to push all your magic paths up to 10, for example. Anyway, if the new uniques are so cool and/or expensive that 100 pearls is too cheap for them, the thematic thing to do would be to require a boosted Wish to get them, like say 150 or 200 pearls. Unfortunately I don't think that's an option from a programmatic standpoint, but I like the idea of variable-power Wishes. Maybe wishing for "Armageddon" is more effective if you blow 1000 pearls on it than if you only spend 100, etc.

-Max

[PvK]

Or the cost could be tied to what you wish for... which would make the lesser things more viable and therefore interesting and used, instead of always trying to get the most bang for your 100 pearls.

[ano]

I also like the idea of variable-power Wishes. Probably not so easy to implement but definitely better than prohibiting wishing some things.

[Twan]

Spliting the wish spell is perhaps doable. They just have to create several spells with different costs, copying wish but with a limited list of working keywords for each.

[Tuidjy]

I really dislike the idea of variable power wishes. A wish is a wish. Any unit,
Armageddon, whatever. If the new units as so freaking awesome, maybe the problem
is with them, not with the wish spell. And anyway. A wished for, and wished up,
Seraph dies, just like anything else, to a squad that is tailored to take a
specific target out. I've had an anti-SC Wraith Lord stumble into a twice-wished
Seraph and take it out before it finished buffing (two rounds of attacks)

[MaxWilson]

But Tuidjy, a Wish _isn't_ a wish, exactly. I can't wish for 9 Death levels, or immortality, or _real_ Armageddon (kills everyone). It's limited in power already, we're just talking about differentiating the power levels instead of fixing them to one uniform standard.

At the same time, I'm not completely convinced that variable-power Wishes are a good idea, either. I just don't think Wish being arbitrarily powerful is thematic or an argument against variable-power Wishes. (Maybe if the game were modded so that wishing for "Victory" or "Godhood" ended the game, you could argue that Wish was arbitrarily powerful. And it would also be no fun to cast--you might as well just quit and delete your saved game.)

-Max

[Endoperez]

I don't mind Wish being able to bring in any unit, except that the most powerful currently available units that are wished for are probably Seraphs. I wouldn't mind someone wishing for an angel every now and then, but everyone with Wish wishing for several, and then armies of these ultimate angels going around and killing stuff for any powermonger, I don't like that. I'd like angels being different, at least by a bit.

Having a wish for "angel" bring in one of the several powerful angelic beings would be better IMO. With just the more powerful angels added in, of both the existing and upcoming ones, you'd still get good stuff for your gems, and there'd still be the chance of getting a seraph or something of AT LEAST the same power level. It could even be so that "angel", "seraph", "angel of fury", "things you won't know until the next patch" etc all give a unit from the same random selection.

[Twan]

For me it's pointless to make the most powerful SC unavailable via wish (after seraphs, another chassis will be the most popular, then another... it's endless). And it's a very bad idea to give to any nation an endgame summon others can never have. Balance between nations may be rock-paper-scissor in early game, but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes. Yes all nations tend to use the same things in endgame, but it's a good thing for balance as long all nations don't have a national powerful endgame SC summon.

Trying to reduce the number/availability of SCs in general is IMO a bad idea, as long the magic/initiative system stay the same. SCs (or any particular SC chassis) aren't actually overpowered compared to some endgame spells which *force* to use SCs to succeed to take provinces in endgame. Dominions without SCs would just end in big stalemates, with all battles won by defenders with mages.

For more diversity I'm rather for the addition of more non national non unique SC chassis in all paths (but uniques should also be made more powerful, or nobody will risk gems on them). Because it looks more doable than adding an endgame summon of the power of the seraph for each nation.

[kasnavada]

but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes.



That's exactly what makes the endgame bad and boring in my opinion. If you don't go for magic diversity, you don't win. Specializing in a type of magic should have a chance. But since research is capped, I suppose it's unavoidable.

I'm also in favor of more diversity for end-game. End-game needs more non-unique SC for all path and nation with different styles. But, end game also desperatly needs ways for armies to me more effective than what they currently are against SC. SC currently have counters, I don't say the opposite, but those counters are SC, thugs, mages. Most troops cannot compare to them and are merely dumb chaff against them !

One thing I'd love to see, is lvl 8 items that would auto-cast on a squad buffs powerful enough for a squad to rival the less powerful SC.

[MaxWilson]

I'd rather see such items be level 6. Too much fighting over uniques if it's level 8. I'd actually like a mod command #autocast that you add to an item to make it autocast some spell at the beginning of combat, once. That way you could mod in items that do Blessing on a squad, Weapons of Sharpness, Strength of Giants, etc., and we could work out which combos are overpowered and which are appropriately-priced. Sword of Aurgelmer autocasting Will of the Fates is fine, but I want to generalize it so some Level 6 items cast Legions of Steel.

-Max

[Edi]

Twan said:
For me it's pointless to make the most powerful SC unavailable via wish (after seraphs, another chassis will be the most popular, then another... it's endless).


Slippery slope fallacy. Yes, if Seraph is unavailable to any but the ones whose national spell it is, some other chassis will be the optimal one. The whole goddamn point of national summons is that they are supposed to be restricted to specific nations, which should override popularity as SC chassis for everyone. In my opinion anyway. It does not mean that all other SC possibilities should also be eliminated from the wishlist (not even possible to do that).


Twan said:
And it's a very bad idea to give to any nation an endgame summon others can never have.


Why? If you have 20 options that are generally usable and there's a top 5, eliminating one of the top 5 from those whose national summon it doesn't happen to be still leaves them with all of the others and if they can't deal with it, they deserve to get their arse spanked in an MP game.


Twan said:
Balance between nations may be rock-paper-scissor in early game, but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes. Yes all nations tend to use the same things in endgame, but it's a good thing for balance as long all nations don't have a national powerful endgame SC summon.


So unless everyone has precisely the same options, it's unbalanced? That's what your argument boils down to and I think we smacked that down in a couple of other threads quite handily.


Twan said:
Trying to reduce the number/availability of SCs in general is IMO a bad idea, as long the magic/initiative system stay the same. SCs (or any particular SC chassis) aren't actually overpowered compared to some endgame spells which *force* to use SCs to succeed to take provinces in endgame. Dominions without SCs would just end in big stalemates, with all battles won by defenders with mages.


That's a nice strawman argument there. Nobody is talking about restricting SCs in general. We are talking about restricting ONE specific SC chassis that also happens to be a nation specific summon. Though I would not at all mind restricting the Mandaha in addition to the Seraph and the new powerful Hinnom summons.


Twan said:
For more diversity I'm rather for the addition of more non national non unique SC chassis in all paths (but uniques should also be made more powerful, or nobody will risk gems on them). Because it looks more doable than adding an endgame summon of the power of the seraph for each nation.


That's a good solution, adding more viable SC non-unique chassis options that are summonable.

[Zeldor]

I want patch! I will wish for that Hinnom summon in MP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I am afraid that we have to wait till dom4 for proper amount of national spells/summons and balanced end-game.

[Twan]

I agree about artefacts (or expensive level 6 items for some spells). As items are the only way to use something before the defender cast, new items with defensive spells would solve the attack/defense balance problem.

The most powerful defensive buffs (army of lead, fog warriors) don't have to be available on items, but mid-power ones (ie : mass protection, antimagic, protection or resists spells with limited AE like marble warriors, legions of steel, and ward spells) should, and would be sufficient to avoid sure victories.

[Endoperez]

I slightly disagree with Edi. IMO, Wish should be strong enough to call nation-spesific summons. My problem is with the fact that an angel is the number-one choice for a wished-for SC, while he seems to be more concerned about the fact that a nation-spesific creature is willing to serve any nation.

I wouldn't even mind it that much if angels were still summonable, but handled differently. As I said before, I'd like to see a random, powerful angel summoned whenever a spesific angel is wished for, because they aren't directly under the control of the Wish-caster; this would make angels different while still making them a safe bet for something powerful.



Area buffs from items are an interesting idea, but there are some problems. First, it'd be very easy to make SCs immune to everyhing by having him start at 50% resist and then give him a few squires with resistance items. Second, all items are Construction, and getting Mass Protection, Antimagic and wards from the same school could be too powerful.

[kasnavada]

Area buffs from items are an interesting idea, but there are some problems. First, it'd be very easy to make SCs immune to everyhing by having him start at 50% resist and then give him a few squires with resistance items. Second, all items are Construction, and getting Mass Protection, Antimagic and wards from the same school could be too powerful.



These can be circumvented. Create just a single item called "spell holder". Then, as a special action, a mage can put the spell in the "spell holder" (so he needs to have the spell to cast it in the spell holder).

Another idea would be to unlock items with another criteria (a spell school). I always found quite dumb that you could make a robe of invulnerability without having the invulnerability spell in the first place.

Making them work only on a squad (EDIT because I meant : not the commander) of 25, 40, 100 person max can also solve the problem (instead of the entire field), as well as limiting the number of spells that are auto-casted at the start of a battle.

I agree though, making everything available from a single school is too powerful.

A bit more on topic, I'd love to have spells that could make a squad of elite troops strong enough to beat "minor" SC reliably. Especially since the "nerf-stick" to tartarian is nearly negligible.

[Endoperez]

kasnavada said:

These can be circumvented. Create just a single item called "spell holder". Then, as a special action, a mage can put the spell in the "spell holder".

Another idea would be to unlock items with another criteria (a spell school). I always found quite dumb that you could make a robe of invulnerability without having the invulnerability spell in the first place.



"Spell Holders" - too complex. Way, way too complex. There's nothing like them in the game.

As for the second one, there was a bug that caused similar results with items and ritual spells. Gate Stone only worked if you had researched Astral Travel, etc. It was a bug, and a very annoying one at that because it made several items utterly useless.
Just imagine what Construction would be like if it didn't actually give you anything but Sword of Sharpness? No Luck, no regen, no Air Shield, no Fire Shield, no Barkskin, no Quickness...

[Twan]

Edi said:
That's a nice strawman argument there. Nobody is talking about restricting SCs in general. We are talking about restricting ONE specific SC chassis that also happens to be a nation specific summon. Though I would not at all mind restricting the Mandaha in addition to the Seraph and the new powerful Hinnom summons.



Hum this thread started about nerfing tartarians then the subject became making seraph (or other national summons) non wishable. The common point looks like the desire to limit the number of good SCs available (or how viable they are in the tartarians case).

A+B result is : the reliable (non insane) non-uniques endgame SCs will cost 120 gems instead of 30 (GoR counted), and would be pretender chassis with about level 3 in one path, instead of tartarians who often have 7 levels or seraphs with 4/4/4.

IMO the question of mages using endgame spells Vs SC balance is very relevant here.



So unless everyone has precisely the same options, it's unbalanced? That's what your argument boils down to and I think we smacked that down in a couple of other threads quite handily.



"Precisely" no. But "globally" in endgame yes.

In early to midgame the rock-paper-scissor balance is good, because the clever player chose his foes, and use diplomacy to avoid wars his nation has too small chances to win.

In endgame it's different business, any nation must have the tools to defeat any other nation remaining. There would be no interest to continue to play with a rock-paper national balance at this stage. The two last nations, at equal power and player skill should have 50% to win, so only player skill makes a difference.

Graphics may be different, with non-wishable national summons for all nations instead of generic SCs if you want, but most abilities, counters, interesting path combos on SCs chassis, etc... have to be available for anyone (once magic diversification is achieved) and for about the same cost.

[kasnavada]

Just imagine what Construction would be like if it didn't actually give you anything but Sword of Sharpness? No Luck, no regen, no Air Shield, no Fire Shield, no Barkskin, no Quickness...



Yeah, it would make sense and be great. Most buffs have a low level anyway. But people are used to the current system, which doesn't make sense, and since it's essentially a nerf to construction-rushers (which is the main strategy in many games because SC and thugs are more powerful than most spells and armies), it won't be implemented. It would also make armies more useful during mid-game compared to thugs.

For your example, just tying the gate stone to a spell with lower requirements like teleport would also have solved the problem... I suppose the rest of "problems" would have been the same. What was annoying was that the game changed and people refused to adapt, that's all.

Besides, if you like the idea, why don't you try to find an change to the game that pleases you ? I dont undertand that category of people that comment only to say "that won't work" and don't propose a solution that would work for them.

[Endoperez]

It'd be better to actually limit the items to just units. As an example, the item affects all units controlled by the commander it is equipped to. Problems with this approach:

* new, unprecedented spell effect is not likely to be added (if it was, it MIGHT go into #spec field, which would make it easy to add the effect to existing spells)
* undead are numerous, and it's much, much easier to get undead leadership in the hundreds than it's to increase normal leadership. Undead already have good immunities, and making few hundred soulless (already immune to cold, poison and fatigue) immune or resistant to fire and/or lightning as well would be very annoying. Boosting their magres would also suddenly be much easier for everyone.


It would make national commanders with high ldrship values better, because one item on them would affect double or triple the number of units indy commanders could protect.

EDIT: Heh, you made a good post there. I didn't have any ideas when I posted the above message. I got one. I posted it. I can only do as much as I can, and no more.

[thejeff]

I like the idea of effects limited to non-commanders. Probably better for balance if it was just an area effect, that didn't work on commanders, than having it work on units under one commanders command.

Re: Gate Stone
What was annoying was that it was broken and for quite awhile no one knew why. In one game you'd forge it and it would work, in another it wouldn't. It's not that people refused to adapt, but that no one could figure out how, other than just not relying on it. If it had been an announced change, there would have been some grumbling, but then people could adjust. Once it was realized that the bug was tied to researching the spell, it was quickly fixed. No need to adjust.

[Meglobob]

I think its lack of choice in the endgame thats the problem really. When it comes to SC's, you currently have the following choices:-

1) Tartarians.

By a long and clear margin. Nothing else compares really. You will often see a dozen+ tartarians in the endgame. Abominations, poison golems, iron dragons and tarrasque are just not on the same playing field in terms of power.

2) Beyond Tartarians you have wish + GoR, as a second rate hugely expensive option. The Seraph is the most popular choice for the wish but again thats only through lack of choice because nothing comes close to it in terms of power. Even then, its rare, very rare to see a seraph in the endgame.

The best solution would be more endgame choice, the introduction of some new SC chasis that rival the power of tartarians/Seraphs, preferably in other schools of magic, other than death/astral. Those should be normal summons castable (with the required paths in magic of course) by any nation.

This would make the endgame more diverse and fun.

[Zeldor]

And more joined path summons. For example N3A3E3, not just high level in one path + smth else. Something for normal nations, not that 9blessers. S9 bless gives you a really nasty end-game pretender.

[kasnavada]

Anyway, if I dare resume the talks about shattered soul, since shattered soul is 20% chance of a limited insanity, that part about tartarians being the main SC chassis for endgame will not change.

The reason is simple :
- cheap,
- producing commanders,
- some can use magic,
- no limitation of unicity.

The only "equivalents" would actually be for other magic, stuff like : fairy queens, ivy kings, wraith lords and bane lords, vampires, golems... they simply are not at the same power level and for most cost more to summon, less to transform into something useful (tartarian do need to get healed), and about the same to equip.

[NTJedi]

Meglobob said:
I think its lack of choice in the endgame thats the problem really. When it comes to SC's, you currently have the following choices:-

1) Tartarians.

By a long and clear margin. Nothing else compares really. You will often see a dozen+ tartarians in the endgame. Abominations, poison golems, iron dragons and tarrasque are just not on the same playing field in terms of power.

2) Beyond Tartarians you have wish + GoR, as a second rate hugely expensive option. The Seraph is the most popular choice for the wish but again thats only through lack of choice because nothing comes close to it in terms of power. Even then, its rare, very rare to see a seraph in the endgame.

The best solution would be more endgame choice, the introduction of some new SC chasis that rival the power of tartarians/Seraphs, preferably in other schools of magic, other than death/astral. Those should be normal summons castable (with the required paths in magic of course) by any nation.

This would make the endgame more diverse and fun.



I completely agree... the Tartarians need at least one or two summoning rivals.



=====

Last I heard three & more summoning paths or forging paths are not possible for the current DOM_3 game design. Good idea for DOM_4.

[Kristoffer O]

> I completely agree... the Tartarians need at least one or two summoning rivals.

I think I agree too. But that doesn't always make things happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

kasnavada said:
Besides, if you like the idea, why don't you try to find an change to the game that pleases you ? I dont undertand that category of people that comment only to say "that won't work" and don't propose a solution that would work for them.



You better start coming up with good ideas very quickly if you want the Tartarian-replacement to appear in the upcoming patch... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

Twan said:
In endgame it's different business, any nation must have the tools to defeat any other nation remaining. There would be no interest to continue to play with a rock-paper national balance at this stage. The two last nations, at equal power and player skill should have 50% to win, so only player skill makes a difference.




It would be quite interesting if dynamic (rock-paper-scissors) balance continued into the endgame. If I'm LA Ermor, and I'm pretty sure I can defeat Patala even in the endgame but I have real trouble against Agartha, isn't it in my interest to help Patala defeat Agartha? Meanwhile, Patala knows I'm planning to stab him in the back eventually and is backing someone else to take ME out when the time is right.

-Max

[kasnavada]

You better start coming up with good ideas very quickly if you want the Tartarian-replacement to appear in the upcoming patch...


I don't remember saying that there is nothing that would work or nothing that I would like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

My imagination is somewhat limited but the beings I'd like to see would be :
- demonic beings and angels with random paths and about the same power as tartarians. Of course, they should be notably less powerful than current unique angelic beings and demons(boosting current unique beings could solve the problem).
- ancient nature beings, treeants maybe ? Basically, it would be a powered up version of the ivy king that can stand toe to toe to tartarians in term of power. Mostly nature with minor air / water / earth.
- ancient animals. Much like the bull pretender except any animal could be chosen.
- Pureblood vampire. Basically a vampire that has grown so strong that its powers just go beyond what a normal human can think of. Check the powers of Alucard in the Hellsing manga if you want to see what kind of power I'm thinking about. He basically can transform into a 50 foot-tall monster with multiple eyes and appendages that regenerates as long as blood is available nearby.
- major elementals. Basically a less powerful version of elemental kings and queens.

I think that random magic path, a large size and large amount of hp (for the angels above : astral / air being main, then nature / water minor) and some special caracteristics (for the angels above : flying, ethereal, awe) would differentiate them from tartarians. Probably make them overpowered too. For demons I was thinking fire / blood as main, some could fly, have differing number of arms and legs and heads, a tail (or more) and random "demon-like" powers like fear, spreading disease, randomly deciding to kill your own troops on a whim, spreading corruption (may randomly transform a mere human into a demon). For nature I was thinking that base regeneration should be high, as would be multiple attacks and they should have very large amount of HP. They should also spawn large amounts of "plant monster" (I don't like that name).
(...)

I think you get the idea for other monsters.

If you ask me for more I'll just get a look at the monster manual for D&D and beings from books and movies I like and dig up the largest and most powerful stuff there. I've got no doubt that KO and others have loads of powerful monster that they'd like to use as SC in dominions too. I'd also multiply the number of less powerful summons.

That would however ask a lot of work ! If I had skill at balancing and at drawing I'd make mods, but I have next to no skill in those.

[Endoperez]

Ancient Treants already exist in the Treelords, they could use a boost, like becoming more mobile, but they're unique so they wouldn't solve the problem.

Elemental Princes and/or Princesses would work, but obviously they wouldn't have random paths.

Legendary animals would be nice, especially if they were also available from Transformation. Great Bulls, Sons of Fenrer, perhaps Even Greater Eagles (Storm Birds?), Great Bears similar to Bogarus summon...
They wouldn't be SCs if they were normal animals, but if they were embodiments of the elements (similar to Fall Bears, Summer Lions etc) they could be very powerful indeed. Ethereal, great stats, probably immunity to one and resistance to other element(s)... There could be more than the four basic ones, for magic combinations (e.g. Nature /Blood). They could even be Nature summons, if the emphasis is on their animal part instead of their elemental part.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
> I completely agree... the Tartarians need at least one or two summoning rivals.

I think I agree too. But that doesn't always make things happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Well let us know if the community can help in any way. I'm sure many members of the community would be willing to help the following ways:

1) Suggestions for Historic Mythological Creatures/Beings

2) Gold_Upkeep / Gem / Research cost ratio balance for late game SC

3) Traits, characteristics and statistics of possible SC summons

4) Drawing of images (Many would love an opportunity for one of their images to be considered for a future patch)

[kasnavada]

Elemental Princes and/or Princesses would work, but obviously they wouldn't have random paths.



I can easily imagine Prince/Princess of magma 3F1E or 2F2E, coming out of either fire or earth spells. It would be less random than what tartarians currently have though... After all one of the fire kings has 1 earth. Or maybe make those dual path-summons and just stick to "hardcoded" paths.

[TheMenacer]

I think an awesome endgame summon for the neifel/jotunheim nation series would be an awakened rimtursar giant. Granted Neifelheim doesn't really need any help as far as SC's go, but it'd still be cool to have a really really insane giant lording it over the garden variety neifel jarl and just stomping all kinds of faces in. Plus thematically it'd be great considering that neifelheim goes so far as to have a global that heralds the return of the rimtursar but doesn't actually have any of the giants themselves show up. I'm thinking it'd be pretty cool if they had pretty average stats, but completely ridiculous cold power, so that if you wanted them to be any good at all, you'd almost have to throw up Illwinter, but if you did have Illwinter up to maintain that cold temperature, then they will kick so much *** that every other player will probably go blind.

[Twan]

kasnavada said:

Elemental Princes and/or Princesses would work, but obviously they wouldn't have random paths.



I can easily imagine Prince/Princess of magma 3F1E or 2F2E, coming out of either fire or earth spells. It would be less random than what tartarians currently have though... After all one of the fire kings has 1 earth. Or maybe make those dual path-summons and just stick to "hardcoded" paths.



Para-elemental (2 elements) creatures in general can easily be designed as they are classical d&d (and many other old rpg) monsters.

You can have magma princes for fire earth, but also smoke queens for fire air, vapor queens for fire water (or acid queens as fire+water=acid in dominions, and because it's one of the best song from the who), ice princes for water earth, fog kings for water air, dust ones for earth air...

[MaxWilson]

+1 to Rimtursar w/ ridiculous Cold Power. Skratti aren't going to be satisfied with the "Illwinter" global; Summon Rimtursar (W7B4) gives them something new to obsess about.

C'tis already has the Devourer of Souls, but it doesn't have any magic. Except that, not only are C'tissians well-suited to summoning/GoR'ing Tartarians, but it's also kind of thematic w/ the Egyptian motif (Greek <=> Egyptian influence). So maybe they should stick with that.

Obviously Lanka will be summoning Rakshasa, and Kailasa will be summoning Devata.

LA Agartha is fine w/ Tomb Oracles (they're about as good as Tartarians, IMHO, except for the lack of randoms, and Air/Blood/Astral randoms for Agartha wouldn't be thematic). EA Agartha could have... whatever it is that's locked away in the vault the Umbrals are guarding. Maybe giant life-draining Hecatoncheires that spread disease and death in all the provinces they're in, like the Harvester of Souls but without stealth.

-Max

[PvK]

All those Tartarian-rivals are utterly moddable. Also you could add cheaper versions of the national summons at higher research levels, as is done in many cases now except even more efficient versions to compete. e.g. MA Ulm could have a Construction-9 3E1F spell to summon Iron Golems for 1 earth gem...

[hunt11]

what about dragons, though they would lack some of the slots they would make up for it. Who needs magic armor when your natural protection is better, who needs magic AOE weapons when you do it naturally.

For the actual cost about 70-90 gems would work, because of not only the actual power, their is also the fact that the dragon would be have at least 4 levels in one magic path

[TheMenacer]

MaxWilson said:
LA Agartha is fine w/ Tomb Oracles (they're about as good as Tartarians, IMHO, except for the lack of randoms, and Air/Blood/Astral randoms for Agartha wouldn't be thematic). EA Agartha could have... whatever it is that's locked away in the vault the Umbrals are guarding. Maybe giant life-draining Hecatoncheires that spread disease and death in all the provinces they're in, like the Harvester of Souls but without stealth.

-Max



I'm not really sure if tomb oracles are much of a replacement for tartarians. The problem isn't so much that tomb oracles are bad because they very much aren't, it's just that they're three times the cost and aren't as strong on their lonesome plus they're attached to a nation that isn't going to have much of an issue getting its hands on some tartarians in the first place. They're good, they're just outclassed in all the ways that count. Off the top of my head, it'd be crazy awesome to get something like an enormous undead ageless olm that just goes completely bananas all over everyone. Dang, someone should really start a "suggest national summons to replace tartarians" thread.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think Tartarians are substantially cheaper than Tomb Oracles. Tartarians are 10d + 20n (for Gift of Reason), Tomb Oracles are 30d. But maybe you're right. 85 HP vs. 170 HP for Tartarians, Size 4 vs. Size 6, and no randoms. (The Earth/Air Tartarians are the best in my opinion.) On the other hand, Agartha doesn't have as easy of a time getting Tartarians as C'tis does because there aren't any national mages who can cast Gift of Reason, forge the Chalice, or cast Gift of Health.

So, maybe some super Tomb Oracles with extra randoms--it seems to me that the HP difference is a relatively minor point. (Seraphs have only 77 HP.) Undead Olm is a possibility too.

-Max

[Lingchih]

I would love to see a boosted Treant too, a version that is not unique. A powerful nature mage could go into the forest, find a sleeping ancient Treant, and awaken him. Nature needs a powerful late game summon.

The Treant would have a super move potential, like 3, powerful nature, earth and water capabilities, and slots (slots are so nice... they are what makes an SC). They would, of course, have great HP and regen, but would be susceptible to fire. Does my description ring any bells?

[kasnavada]

Lords of the ring ? ^^

I'd love it too. I'd also love the "dark" version they speak of in the books, even if we don't see them.

[Zeldor]

I am fine with mapmove 1 on treant as long as they can use Flying Carpet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They also do not need many slots as long as they have really cool built-in abilities.

[Endoperez]

kasnavada said:
Lords of the ring ? ^^

I'd love it too. I'd also love the "dark" version they speak of in the books, even if we don't see them.



Actually, the hobbits encountered one tree with a rotten center when Tom Bombadil happened to come their way. It cast Sleep on them, and then tried to drown them. That tree was seemingly dying AND immobile - rather like the unique Treelords we have ATM. So, if the current Treelords were changed into powerful cross-path mages and there were other tree beings, with less magic but more combat potential. Perhaps something modeled after Entwives, who made the first farms and orchards.



What about some kind of a construct? Golems are weak to Astral mages, Gargoyles lack the magic resistance, Siege Golems lack slots and Iron Dragons even more so... Perhaps something like a huge Clayman, similar in size to the Colossal Fetisch, with cold vulnerability but lightning resistance?

What kind of innate abilities could replace some of the slots? It'd be much easier if the proposals didn't all have to have all slots available.

[Lingchih]

I don't think the Treelord replacement needs to have all slots available. Boots would be silly, and they probably should not have a chest slot, but should have very good natural armor. Also, a head slot would be hard to imagine.

What about 2-4 arm slots (they have lots of branches), and 3 misc. slots (again, they have lots of branches). Good MR, and a special ability to tear down walls (+25 siege bonus??)

[kasnavada]

I think that 2 - 9 arms slots and 2 - 5 misc slots would be fun.


Actually, the hobbits encountered one tree with a rotten center when Tom Bombadil happened to come their way.



I was thinking of the trees that Treebeard sends to fight (well, it was not much of a fight, more fo a one sided massacre) Saruman's orc army sometime near the defeat of Isengard.

Ah, found the name : Huorns. Those do move, and the tree that the hobbits met could have been of of them.