Well, I'm through with the game

[jscott]

It has such great potential, but there is no point in continuing to play SP.

The fact that the AI picks its scales and dominion randomly is absolutely absurd and makes the SP completely unplayable in my opinion. I didn't know enough about the game in my first half dozen or so starts to realize the damage this was causing behind the scenes, but I've seen it firsthand as I started paying attention. Massive death domain wiping out Arco armies; huge armies of AI chaff units being killed by a lack of supplies; etc.

Why the developers can't code something simple to prevent the AI from taking a 3 scaled death when they aren't Ermor or Ryleh is beyond me, but since I can't fix it (RanDom simply will not work for me and I'm not going to fight with it anymore), I just don't see any point to playing.

If 3.16 or beyond fixes this, I'll try to come back, but I don't think that's going to happen since the AI hasn't received any significant improvements in a long time.

[Shovah32]

Set supplies to 300. The ai should no longer starve its armies.

[Tuidjy]

It's a shame that no one told you that Dominions III is first and foremost a MP
game. I would have never bought it for the SP, as I knew well enough that there
would be little improvement from Dominions II's mediocre AI.

You can make things better by picking the AI pretender, or playing scenario maps,
or using the command line switches that restrict the AI pretender choices. But
I am the wrong person to ask for specifics, I never play SP against the AI... I
just test stuff.

But man, are you missing out on MP!

[jscott]

Even if the AI doesn't starve its armies, a death scales strategy only works for nations that don't require much gold to produce units. If the AI is randomly picking it, its gutting its own economy and making itself weaker over time (when it should be getting stronger!).

You can't pick the AI pretender. If you start a game as a human player and then set control to the AI, it sets to the normal AI only. The normal AI isn't challenging enough.

I can't use RanDom to create scenario maps, so that's out (there aren't enough maps in the first place that can be used for a long term single player game).

I understood it was a multiplayer game. I probably got close to my money's worth. Its just ridiculous that the designers couldn't take two minutes to make sure the AI was choosing correct scales.

Its not as though you have to make a very hard call on who is going to use death 3 scales. Only 1-2 nations can get by with it!

[Rathar]

Sp dominions is sadly boring and easy. MP on the other hand is tricksy and deep.

The AI is especially stupid in this game though. I can't bring myself to play against it anymore, I just start to yawn.

[BigJMoney]

Patch? Honestly, I remember seeing this but not really "taking notice" of it. I guess that's because if I want a challenge, I make the map larger and put in more opponents or handicap myself. I agree it's annoying to know a certain percentage of your opponents are going to be no challenge; annoying enough maybe to make it a patch-worthy issue, but the game is definitely playable/difficult for me in SP.

As you can see, I'm not that hardcore ;-)

[quantum_mechani]

jscott said:

Its not as though you have to make a very hard call on who is going to use death 3 scales. Only 1-2 nations can get by with it!

This is not really true for MP. And as far SP goes, it could improve the AI in a lot ways, to lock it's pretender choices, but it would also make them much more boring. If you truly feel strongly about it you could always start them as human players and set them AI on the first turn. As has been said though, the easy fix for most of the problem is simply to up the world supply level.

[jscott]

quantum_mechani said:

jscott said:

Its not as though you have to make a very hard call on who is going to use death 3 scales. Only 1-2 nations can get by with it!

This is not really true for MP. And as far SP goes, it could improve the AI in a lot ways, to lock it's pretender choices, but it would also make them much more boring. If you truly feel strongly about it you could always start them as human players and set them AI on the first turn. As has been said though, the easy fix for most of the problem is simply to up the world supply level.



As I said above, I've already tried that. It sets the AI to the normal difficulty level. It won't let you pick anything harder than that. Normal AI is even easier than the higher levels, so its a net result of about zero improvement to give them intelligently designed domains, but force them to be a low difficulty level.

Also as I said above, supply isn't the only issue. Gold is a huge factor as well. If the AI nation is gold-dependent to produce its units, but set at Death 3, then its completely screwed. I've seen this repeatedly. I'll take over 40% of the map or so, be 100 turns into the game or whatever, and run into AI nations with no units because they've killed their own population completely and can't produce any income. Increasing supply is a band-aid that fixes only one aspect of the problem.

The game is perfectly set up to allow no solution to this problem without elaborate mods to create a scenario map for EVERY GAME YOU START. That's a ridiculous way to work around a very simple problem that everyone can see; the designers should just simply limit when the AI takes death scales on its domain to very few circumstances. How hard could that possibly for them?

[quantum_mechani]

The thing is though, the AI is pretty much a pushover by turn 100 in any case, and no meddling with death scale is going to change that.

[lch]

jscott said:
As I said above, I've already tried that. It sets the AI to the normal difficulty level. It won't let you pick anything harder than that. Normal AI is even easier than the higher levels, so its a net result of about zero improvement to give them intelligently designed domains, but force them to be a low difficulty level.


The AI isn't smarter at better than normal difficulty levels. It just gets a bonus to it's income, resources, maybe even supplies and research. So the easy way to emulate the same in a SP game: Take some Turmoil/Sloth/Death/Drain scales and don't spend the design points you win by it. This will make the normal AI that you get after turning a prepared nation to AI into a "better than normal" AI.

[Aezeal]

play MP, I don't play SP either... did it, saw I woul'dn't learn much from playing SP (to advance my MP skills) and so I just play MP now..

I maybe have played 5 finished SP games... 10 max... who needs it anyway

[sector24]

I'm surprised you got to turn 100. In single player I find the micromanagement after turn 50-60 to border on the unbearable. Who wants to recruit from 12+ castles and attack on 8 different fronts while bloodhunting from 12 different provinces? Once you start making SCs, you know you've won because the AI has no counter and automatically loses. It doesn't matter if all their scales are 3, you can wipe out thousands of units with a single commander.

Just like in Galactic Civ II, there's a point at which you know you've won, but you may have to spend a hundred boring turns to prove it. It's not unique to Dominions, I think it happens in most turn based strategy games. Instead, you have to find the enjoyment in fighting the first or 2nd war to establish dominance. That may be deliberately taking less than ideal scales, or just sitting in your capital doing nothing for 5 turns to give the AI a head start. In the end you just have to find a way to make the game enjoyable.

[AreaOfEffect]

Single player is a suitable testing ground for testing out your first year of a new strategy or for testing out a modded faction. Aside from that, its all about the multi-player.

[Foodstamp]

If your gripe is the death scale, why are you not playing against enough opponents to insure that atleast a few of them have a growth scale?

[DonCorazon]

I agree that MP is the only way to go. I have only just this weekend played an SP game long enough to get to a Wish spell and that SP game was only played because some of my MP games that started back in November are getting to the point where my lack of end game knowledge was killing me so I needed a dry run.

But in the end the SP experience is dry and tends to lead to speedy, thoughtless turns. MP in comparison is quite juicy and fun.

I had avoided MP games til Dom3 (after logging into Diablo battlenet and getting annihilated the second I set foot in the dungeon), but the community here is great and the games a blast. It has caused me to wonder whether other games from my past (AoW maybe) might not have received more of my love had I only given the MP experience a chance...

[Lingchih]

I can think of no other game where the SP is more different than the MP game. This is almost purely a multi-player game. I think the devs threw in SP mainly as a testing field. There has been very little dev work put into the AI since early on.

But the multi-player... oh my. That is a different world. I have yet to win an MP game (although I keep trying). Methinks maybe I am too dumb to win in MP versus the great minds that play this game.

[Ballbarian]

I cannot resist any longer.

/* Begin Rant...
Thank god that I did not see post after post beating the single player portion of dominions to a bloody and unrecognizable pulp before I had already purchased the game or it is very likely that I would have simply moved on to something else. Yes I enjoy multiplayer, but I still find the single player game to be quite enjoyable as well. Everybody has their own tastes. Perhaps I am just a mindless weasel that just enjoys bullying the helpless AI nations into predestined submission. Truth is, I happily struggle through the early stages of the game without backing up turns or any such nonsense and then, if I get the upper hand, I reward myself with the relentless massacre of any who remain to oppose my rightful rule! If this takes 100 turns then so be it sayest Ballbarian!!!
...End Rant*\

-Edit:
Wow. Just noticed that this was my 666th post. This does not bode well for humanity... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[AstralWanderer]

Hmph...I only do SP since my gaming habits are sporadic enough to rule out MP, so is there any possibility to mod a better AI? Or would a note to Illwinter asking for more improvements here be a better approach?

Obviously, doing good AI for a complex game is a real challenge but having separate scripts for each nation (controlling pretender setup, scales chosen, preferred troops and favoured spells along the lines of the strategy suggestions made in the manual) should avoid the worst errors without reducing variety.

[Dedas]

Forget SP. MP is the only way to go with this awesome game.

[Saulot]

Hear Hear Ballbarian.

I too very much enjoy SP. While nobody would say that the AI is great it still is sufficient. I play the game with settings that make it easier for the AI to work (like high supplies, moderate indeps, many provinces per AI, etc). I also tend to play smaller maps of 100-150 provinces, so that I never get bogged down with too much late-game micro. I modify all my maps to have no independents, which keeps the AI from using useless chaff. I never buy mercenaries. If I'm playing a nation that I think is particularly strong, I just pass the first few turns. All of this allows the game to be quite enjoyable, at least for me.

For variety, I'll sometimes play a 3-4 player map with a mod which modifies the enemy nations to give them extra gems, as I suspect the AI doesn't sitesearch enough.

Anyway, for me, it's about trying out all the different nations, and trying out different strategies. Even after all this time, I still haven't played through a full game with each and every nation, not to mention all the various interesting mod nations that you can find on the forums as well.

While the AI could use improvement, SP is very much about discovery and experimentation, setting your own goals and challenges, and creating your own enjoyment. Obviously there are probably many people who enjoy the more visceral experience of crushing (or being crushed by) a human entity, over the more sandbox nature of SP strategy games. I'm still pretty confident that there are plenty of SP players who are lurking, or don't even visit these boards, who are enjoying the game without MP.

One can enjoy climbing a mountain, and feeling satisfaction at reaching the top, without grabbing a dozen people and saying "Race you to the top!".

[Saarud]

I am enjoying SP as well... alot. I play on all kinds of maps big and small though I do prefer smaller when playing only AIs. The thing is that the AI in most (like 95%) of the strategy games I play are a pushover so I have a habit of restricting myself with alot of houserules. With strict houserules you suddenly get new challenges and you have to develop new strategies. What houserules to use? Well that's up to the player... whatever makes the game harder and more fun seems like a good houserule. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[B0rsuk]

sector24 said:
I'm surprised you got to turn 100. In single player I find the micromanagement after turn 50-60 to border on the unbearable. Who wants to recruit from 12+ castles and attack on 8 different fronts while bloodhunting from 12 different provinces?



Zeldor and Gandalf Parker come to mind.

[kasnavada]

The thing is that the AI in most (like 95%) of the strategy games I play



There is no AI capable of handling hard-core fans, whatever the game. I don't claim having seen everything of course, but, up to now, every single AI I played or heard about had flaws that could be exploited for an easy win on whatever difficulty level... In dominions, SC and thugs certainly fall into this category.

One possible thing would be to be able to mod the AI. I do not know if that is possible for Dominions.

[Aezeal]

ehm if you think it lasts to long to kill every one you have to set better goals

[Zeldor]

It's not about time and scale. It simply isn't fun, when AI constatly does extremely stupid things. Starting from pretender design, then unit recruitment, magic use, starving armies, making suicide attacks...

[Cor2]

I agree with Ballbarian!

I still enjoy playing SP. Usually quit after mid game, but its still alot of fun.

[capnq]

Saulot said: I'm still pretty confident that there are plenty of SP players who are lurking, or don't even visit these boards, who are enjoying the game without MP.

<raises hand>

I'm generally a late adopter on games; I've only had the full version of Dom3 long enough to start three SP games, and haven't finished any of them yet. I'd like to finish at least one SP game before I attempt MP.

My experience with Space Empires IV, which is the only computer game for which I've played a significant number of MP games, is that I alternate between getting tired of dominating the AI in SP and getting tired of being crushed by humans in MP. I find that I don't particularly enjoy the style of play that seems to be required to be competitive in MP.

[mathusalem]

you should start a game with all players as humain, then you give to all nation a optimized dominion and pretendant, stale turn yours one turn and set to AI others.

[Aezeal]

Comperatively the AI in dominions is worse than in other games. Dominions has so much options that while AI in games has usually say x different strategies, it might also have those in dominions but x is just to low compared to all options here.
- Ai should have better pretender/scales design
- AI should be able to get enough supplies for itself
- AI should have notion of which troops are good/decent/bad and never spend money on anything in the bad group (couldn't you add a secret tag to troops saying this?)
- AI should be able to somewhat use and counter SC/thugs...

sure they will never beat humans but then SP would already be somewhat better and in SP more would be needed from a player.
In SP I coudn't really see why a SC would be so good.. since my regular armies and 1-2 mages also beat everything.. my first MP game showed me differently http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

MP rocks

[kasnavada]

In SP I coudn't really see why a SC would be so good.. since my regular armies and 1-2 mages also beat everything.. my first MP game showed me differently



I couldn't agree more. I'm learning to see dominions and tactics differently since I started MP games. I learned that scripting could make the difference between losing and winning (I found some of the winning ones and lots of the losing ones), the point of using thugs and SC, the effect of micromanagement, that raiding actually hurts a lot. Hell, I even have found at least one good way to use harpies in a pangaean army (not patrolling!). And I'm not yet above turn 30 in the MP games I play...

[Twan]

I don't find time to continue these games, but had good experiences of challenging SP in dominions 3, using boosted AIs (with mod and map changed to give them immobile researchers, more gem income, better scales and pretenders etc...). Of course the AIs are still stupid, but if you give them about 80 RP / 20 gems a turn at start, they tend to use their mages more.

I guess I should post my AI boosters on the maps&mod forum one day.

[llamabeast]

Yep, as Twan says, you can use map commands to design the AI pretenders yourself, and then they can still be on Impossible or whatever. You can easily set it up so that the game is extremely difficult to win.

I have to agree that in the late game the AI can't compete with things like SCs and ingenious use of battle magic. But difficulties like death scale use are very easy to fix.

[Chris_Byler]

Aezeal said:
- AI should have notion of which troops are good/decent/bad and never spend money on anything in the bad group (couldn't you add a secret tag to troops saying this?)


You could, but it would be nearly as much effort as just *improving* the bad troops (in stats, cost, or whatever it is they're so bad at), which would clearly be a better move.

[Edratman]

I am a SP player because I am sure that I would not be able to fulfill my obligations to a MP game.

But I am going to join the ranks of the defenders for the SP game. I enjoy the SP game. The AI whipped my butt for several weeks before I caught on. Now it is faily easy for me, but I still enjoy the games. I've tried the all human start, map modding to give the AI an advantage, scales variations, etc, but it is still beatable. (I must admit that I only start in a corner because I got overwhelmed by 5 neighboring opponents last time I didn't. That tells me the AI has some degree of competance, at least in the early game.)

I limit my play to 100 to 125 province maps and still do not finish games because of the micromanagement. That bothers me only a little bit. The major issue with this is that I quit before I've researched all the spells. (Tried easy research and didn't like it, probably because it changed the rhythm of the game as I learned to play it.)

I read the MP posts and it does seem to be a lot more fun and a much more intricate game. Players are always referring to situations, tactics and combinations that I have never encountered or even had occasion to use.

But the SP game still amuses me after a year. What more can one ask of a game? And as several others have said, what strategy game AI is any better?

[Endoperez]

People still play the demo of Dom:PPP to avoid the turn limit.


Think about that for a while.

Dom:PPP's sprites are half that of DomII/3, and those sprites aren't nearly as well drawn. The maps are pixel-porridge that's nigh unlegible with the base colors of the maps that come with the game. Province info (magic sites, dominion, statistics) takes perhaps 1/3rd of the screen, and commander view (about 9 commanders at once) another third, while gems aren't shown until you go to laboratory. That means that you have less info visible at once, but it takes so much space that only one third of the screen shows the map, at once. I don't think you can zoom the map either. But I recently found a thread named Dominions: Priests, Prophets and Pretenders because the original demo HAS NO TURN LIMITS and wider selection of nations, and thus the poster played it rather than the later demos.

I found the thread from Dwarf Fortress forums, who are used to bad interfaces and not-so-good graphics, but it's still rather amazing.

[quantum_mechani]

AstralWanderer said:
Hmph...I only do SP since my gaming habits are sporadic enough to rule out MP, so is there any possibility to mod a better AI?




Edratman said:I am a SP player because I am sure that I would not be able to fulfill my obligations to a MP game.



Just pointing out, long term games are not the only kinds of MP games. Sounds like one sitting games would fit your schedules better.

And no, it is not currently possible (or likely in the future), to have a moddable AI.

[NTJedi]

jscott said:
Even if the AI doesn't starve its armies, a death scales strategy only works for nations that don't require much gold to produce units. If the AI is randomly picking it, its gutting its own economy and making itself weaker over time (when it should be getting stronger!).

You can't pick the AI pretender. If you start a game as a human player and then set control to the AI, it sets to the normal AI only. The normal AI isn't challenging enough.

I can't use RanDom to create scenario maps, so that's out (there aren't enough maps in the first place that can be used for a long term single player game).

I understood it was a multiplayer game. I probably got close to my money's worth. Its just ridiculous that the designers couldn't take two minutes to make sure the AI was choosing correct scales.

Its not as though you have to make a very hard call on who is going to use death 3 scales. Only 1-2 nations can get by with it!



You can prevent the AI from using death scales via map edit commands. Open the .map file using notepad then place the command preferably at the bottom so it's easy to find. For example adding #scale_death 17 -3 would have the Niefielheim giants start with a growth scale of 3.

Start with just providing the AI with a growth scale and before you giving them other stuff I recommend testing before playing an actual game.

With time you'll see how it's possible to setup the AI opponents as allies, provide the AI with strong pretenders, position a super powerful AI far away to provide huge late game battles, and if you're brave enough you can even provide the AI with it's own very powerful SC's.

If you provide the AI with pretenders you can choose it's blesses. I recommend providing AI opponents with either an immobile pretender or a size 2 or smaller pretender for the AI opponents otherwise they will blindly send them into the arena death match against each other.

The biggest AI weakness is most AI nations lack the units and programming to know how to enter water provinces. So unless you play with specific AI opponents you'll want zero water provinces otherwise the human opponent will have a strong advantage.

[NTJedi]

quantum_mechani said:
And no, it is not currently possible (or likely in the future), to have a moddable AI.



Unfortunately this is true for Dominions_3.

Some moddable AI is available for recent games such as Neverwinter Nights(RPG) and for older games such as Warcraft_2(RTS)... both were successful and provided great new gameplay. I believe Age_of_Empires_2 also had some moddable AI options.

Some other good news is I emailed Stardock with a list of suggestions for their upcoming fantasy TBS game and they responded saying all my suggestions were already working or are planned to be implemented which includes modifying the AI via scripts.

[HoneyBadger]

I would think the simplest solution to most of the really severe AI problems would be the option to "blankscreen" the map (you'd click on a button that causes the whole map to appear blank except for your home province, and it couldn't be undone until the next turn) before the game starts, so that you could set up the computer's Pretenders, and if you wish, take their first turn for them, without also learning exactly where on the map they are. Ofcourse, the Devs would have to get involved to implement something like this.

Another way around the AI limitations would be if there could be AI-only heroes, which would consist of SC-built national units/summons, and maybe the AI's normal heroes could come pre-built as well, with suitable magic items.

Maybe a system could even be implemented whereby, progressively as the AI recruits it's most powerful units, those units get better equipment for free. Example: The first 5 Niefel Jarls the AI recruits have 0 extra equipment, but the 6th through 8th starts with weightless scalemail and an ice sword, and the 9th-11th gets copper plate, fear helmet, and sword of quickness. 12 and up get a frost brand, copper plate, ring of regeneration, amulet
of missle protection, and fear helmet.

This could be simulated a bit by modders if each nation had an AI version that included units already equipped as thugs and SCs.

Similar things could be done to the magic system, getting rid of spells the AI wouldn't be able to easily implement, and making improved spells that only the AI can use.

Also, if certain units could be "turned off" to the AI, so the AI couldn't recruit them, like various poor choice independents and national recruits, that would help as well.

I have no idea how difficult these would be to code, ofcourse, if the Devs got involved, but I've tried to come up with things that wouldn't be too excruciating to implement.

I love SP by the way. I don't play Dominions to win the game, I play it to pique my imagination. Most of the game for me is the role-playing that goes on inside my head, modding, and enjoying the mods other people create.

[jscott]

Another solution would be for the developers to just take a few moments and stop the AI from randomly picking its scales.

That's what they are doing people, they are randomly picking their scales!

That is ridiculous to pass off as AI for a single player game.

I understand that many of you play MP and believe the game is MP only. Why bother posting in a thread like this if that's what you believe? Some of us will never play the multiplayer. That's just a fact. I never will.

What I would like, though, is for the SP to not insult my intelligent by implementing sloppy design that masquerades like its an actual single player opponent. Random decision making is not AI. Its not a single player opponent. Its just a sign of abject laziness. If you are going to do that, then simply don't have a SP component at all and all confusion over this issue will be over.

Random scales!? That's just absurd.

And that's why Dominions 3 ultimately earns a thumbs down from me and why I won't be playing it going forward.

[moderation]

Hmm, as as pretender design goes, I think you could set up your AI opponent as a Human initially, and then design decent scales and a pretender for them, then switch them to AI. However, I don't think the game lets you choose what type of AI you could (which would be a nice feature).

For the hardcore fans, if you could tell the AI to choose from a list of pretender gods that you have designed, this could make things more challenging. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that they would follow the optimal research paths. If you had an option to set research priorities for them, this could help.

Finally, the option to pop switch an AI player back to a human for a few turns to correct it's mistakes could be interesting. Essentially, you'd be playing against yourself, with the AI filling in some of the time, but it could be a bit more challenging. Does anyone know why there isn't an option to switch an AI back to a human? I know I would find this useful for testing purposes at least, and maybe other people would as well. Well, that's my two gold pieces anyway.

[DonCorazon]

jscott said:

I understand that many of you play MP and believe the game is MP only. Why bother posting in a thread like this if that's what you believe? Some of us will never play the multiplayer. That's just a fact. I never will.




Well I was trying to share my own positive experience with MP since at one time I only bought and played games for SP, thinking that such a perspective might be useful to you. I see that, given your response, I was wasting of my time.

I would also ask, if as you say, you are through with the game, why bother posting here as well?

[Kristoffer O]

The random scales is intentional. The AI is supposed to play a pretending god with an effect on his lands. It is not supposed to be a god trying to maximize the outcome of his subjects lands. So should you if you play SP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm not sure, but thought that SP players were less concerned with beating their opponent and more into role-playing. If you are a role-player both you and your enemies should take scales according to your own whim. If the AI is playing with death scales it is your task to rid the world of him. It might also be easier to do than defeat the other pretender, a fertility god that has all his population with him in an orderly and growing nation.

I know that there are players that try to find strategically worthy opponents in SP games, but I believed, perhaps wrongly, that the SP community was more concerned with exploration and roleplaying and less with finding strong and weak strategies and ways to defeat an opponent efficiently.

[Zeldor]

Kristoffer O:

Maybe it is because you made strategy game, not RPG? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif At least higher difficulty levels should be somewhat challeging for strategy enthusiasts.

[LDiCesare]

I'm probably a poor player, but playing on a 125 provinces wrapparound map against 10 mighty ai's is still a challenge for me. Although it may depend on which nation I pick.

[Edi]

The forum population here is heavily skewed toward the multiplayer aspect and a lot of people seem to try to maximize the effectiveness of their nations. I like to roleplay, for example.

The problem with the AI is not that it takes some bad scales, but that it is not uncommon to see a Death 3, Turmoil 3, Misfortune 3 combo and at that point you can generally walk all over the AI with both hands tied behind your back. On the other hand, if you like playing a hard research game and you run into an impossible AI that picked good scales, there's a real chance of being overrun unless you can hold it off at a chokepoint.

Especially with the Better Independents mod, because then the AI will not be able to recruit crap chaff. If it has indies, it'll be crossbowmen, heavy infantry and heavy cavalry with some militia, but mostly national units, heavy infantry and the decent light infantry and crossbows in the MA and LA.

[Twan]

Yes the smaller the map is the harder is the game against AIs (it's for 20+ provinces per nation maps that AIs may need to be boosted more ; on a 10 provinces per nation map I think I lose too against mighties, especially if some are offensive).

[Renojustin]

I'm up to out-finessing 7 Impossible AIs in medium sized random maps, even with relatively weak nations, and without SCs. Yay!

Should I be setting them to Offensive? I just have em set to Random behavior... at least that way most of the talent on the map seems to be making a beeline for me (for some reason) instead of randomly bashing away at their neighbors.

[capnq]

NTJedi said: Some moddable AI is available for recent games such as Neverwinter Nights(RPG) and for older games such as Warcraft_2(RTS)... both were successful and provided great new gameplay. I believe Age_of_Empires_2 also had some moddable AI options.

Space Empires IV allowed modding the AI, and Space Empires V added even more modding options.

[Aezeal]

I must admit that I haven't even tried to beat 10 might AI's... A lot would depend on my start (= luck) and then on exploiting gaps in AI of opponents else you obviously can't beat them since they have much more income etc.

I would prefer to get a good opponent with equal income etc as me and then try to beat him.. or to compensate for the AI a little extra income.

Better AI would be nice!

[Twan]

Should I be setting them to Offensive? I just have em set to Random behavior...



I think the sooner AIs attack the best it is for them, as they are mostly bad in the magic area (playing with very difficult research should help them too).

Offensive AIs attack more both other AIs and players.
But if you set ten AIs on offensive on a small map, I think there are good chances that some of them gang against you (especially if you have a better start than most AIs and so have several neighbours fast).

There is also a map command to avoid to see AIs fighting each other (but it may lead to some AIs not succeeding to expand as another AI hold a crucial chokepoint).

[theenemy]

This probably won't help anyone but the AI can still kick my butt in SP because of the fact that I don't play Dom3 as often as I want to.

[otthegreat]

Edi said:
Especially with the Better Independents mod, because then the AI will not be able to recruit crap chaff. If it has indies, it'll be crossbowmen, heavy infantry and heavy cavalry with some militia, but mostly national units, heavy infantry and the decent light infantry and crossbows in the MA and LA.



This sounds interesting. I get annoyed when the AI sends mountains of chaff against me. Where is this mod? I did a quick search but couldn't find it.

[Edi]

You can find a link to the thread in my sig, in the FAQ and in the sticky modlist in the maps and mods subforum. Just make sure that you avoid using enslave mind or charm against independents, because the gold cost version of the mod makes all the chaff indies cost 9000 gold, which translates to 600 upkeep apiece.

[Cor2]

I was thinking it should be easy to mod a fix that reduces the penalty for bad scales to the point where it is giving free points to the AI for taking them ( the player would have to refrain from taking bad scales). But that wouldn't work would it, because good scales are tied to bad.

[Cor2]

Kristoffer O said:
I know that there are players that try to find strategically worthy opponents in SP games, but I believed, perhaps wrongly, that the SP community was more concerned with exploration and roleplaying and less with finding strong and weak strategies and ways to defeat an opponent efficiently.



You have me pegged. It half about otfitting may favorie commanders and seeing what becomes of them.

[Zeldor]

Well, I made an undead markata prophet SC recently. And then forgot to script him, so he did cast priest spells and fatigue got him down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[NTJedi]

renojustin said:
I'm up to out-finessing 7 Impossible AIs in medium sized random maps, even with relatively weak nations, and without SCs. Yay!

Should I be setting them to Offensive? I just have em set to Random behavior... at least that way most of the talent on the map seems to be making a beeline for me (for some reason) instead of randomly bashing away at their neighbors.



On your computer browse into the docs folder and read the map edit PDF document. It will allow you to setup one or more AI's as allies, allow you to give the AI's growth scales, and more.

[Taqwus]

Kristoffer O said:
I know that there are players that try to find strategically worthy opponents in SP games, but I believed, perhaps wrongly, that the SP community was more concerned with exploration and roleplaying and less with finding strong and weak strategies and ways to defeat an opponent efficiently.



As somebody with a bizarre sense of humor and some difficulty with respect to doing work in games, I like to build up to a strong position, and then conduct what are often highly inefficient experiments.

I think I once had a regiment of Mechanical Men, led by a GoR'd and empowered Mechanical Man, in the Flying Ship, simply because the concept of a highly mobile robot army amused me.

[Kristoffer O]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

Roleplaying and inefficient strategy testing is one of the few things that keep me playing SP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I LOVE making weaker commanders into roleplay units with an assortment of gear to see how many kills they can rack up during battles. Especially in games where I take high luck and get a lot of items I would not use otherwise.

[Mr_Dark]

Kristoffer O said:
I'm not sure, but thought that SP players were less concerned with beating their opponent and more into role-playing. If you are a role-player both you and your enemies should take scales according to your own whim.



I'll chime in as an SP player - this game is very light-weight and easy to travel with, and I enjoy it on business travel. I agree that role playing and making up stories to go with the play are more important than minimaxing the AI.

Question: for you other SP players out there - would there be any energy around creating/playing a new set of SP-focused maps?

[moderation]

Roleplaying in SP? Seems a bit odd, but I can see how it might be fun if there were SP focused scenario maps. Speaking of which, are there any such maps?

[Mr_Dark]

There's a borrowed map of Europe on one of the Dom II sites that is easy to mod to 'historic' starting positions.

I've been desultorily working on an map of mystic India, with the Bandar and Kailasa battling it out in the jungles of the south, Abyssia rising in the Deccan Traps, airy Caelum flitting among the peaks of the Himalya, and the armies of Alexander...errr... Arcoscephale approaching from the west.

I've got the map working and am learning the other modding capabilities to see how much of a story I can string together with some custom magic sites, items, and random events.

[moderation]

Hmm, I wonder if Dominions could compare with say, Warlords in terms of SP. On the other hand, you could also make it more like a "build a SC" RPG if you scattered powerful magic gear around the map that you would have to defeat specific monsters to get, like the Sun Gear.

[Foodstamp]

Mr_Dark said:
There's a borrowed map of Europe on one of the Dom II sites that is easy to mod to 'historic' starting positions.

I've been desultorily working on an map of mystic India, with the Bandar and Kailasa battling it out in the jungles of the south, Abyssia rising in the Deccan Traps, airy Caelum flitting among the peaks of the Himalya, and the armies of Alexander...errr... Arcoscephale approaching from the west.

I've got the map working and am learning the other modding capabilities to see how much of a story I can string together with some custom magic sites, items, and random events.



Sounds very cool, I can't wait to see it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[capnq]

jscott said: The game is perfectly set up to allow no solution to this problem without elaborate mods to create a scenario map for EVERY GAME YOU START.


Mr_Dark said: Question: for you other SP players out there - would there be any energy around creating/playing a new set of SP-focused maps?

I think this idea would be the ideal solution to the problem stated above. If everyone who enjoys building SP maps uploads their finished work somewhere, all the SP fans end up with a library of new maps to try.

[Tichy]

KO: I'm not sure I understand your explanation for random scales. Why would the effect of a pretending being's aura on the land be random? Why wouldn't it have something to do with the kind of being that is doing the pretending?

So it'd seem to make more sense, given what you said your aim is, to tie scales thematically to pretender, so any nation led by a PoD would have death scales, Lord of the Hunt growth, Oracle magic, Lady of Fortune luck etc.

[moderation]

I think the issue with random scales is that is it just easier to implement. Of course if it were possible for the game to accept a package of player-made pretender/scales designs from the community, then maybe it would be possible to create more challenging SP opponents. Master of Magic had something like this, it had a set of pre-made opponents that you would encounter. Of course, I think it was only about ten or eleven, but it is an interesting example.

Of course, maybe you still need to get the AI to exploit the player-made designs, e.g. in the case of pretender god designed around a bless strategy, but it could be a first step. And of course, useful scales, like productivity for Ulm or Abysia would probably help out the AI automatically. Just a thought.

[NTJedi]

moderation said:
I think the issue with random scales is that is it just easier to implement.



True... there are many tough decisions when developing the computer opponents. This is why I've recommended developers providing multiple AI personalities with the option for gamers to create new personalities and/or adjust existing personalities. Each AI opponent by default should randomly select a personality, yet the gamer should have the option to also choose a specific personality if desired.

[Saarud]

Hmm, I wonder if Dominions could compare with say, Warlords in terms of SP. On the other hand, you could also make it more like a "build a SC" RPG if you scattered powerful magic gear around the map that you would have to defeat specific monsters to get, like the Sun Gear.



That's funny you said that because I am trying to make a scenario based on the game Warlords. In this scenario one of the main objectives is to create rules that the AI can deal with. Pretenders and scales are preset. Every city has their own unique units (made unique to that city through a magic site). No nation has national units but instead their starting province magic sites will provide them with some good "national units". Also the gameplay will focus on troops so SC and to some degree thugs will be no existance. Also I am trying to make spells less powerful and more unique to different mages or nations. All the provinces resources and gold are edited to create a balanced game for all nations.

All in all the scenario will be streamlined to make the AI better but also to provide a MP scenario for those of us that don't like SCs and thugs.

[Kristoffer O]

Tichy said:
KO: I'm not sure I understand your explanation for random scales. Why would the effect of a pretending being's aura on the land be random? Why wouldn't it have something to do with the kind of being that is doing the pretending?

So it'd seem to make more sense, given what you said your aim is, to tie scales thematically to pretender, so any nation led by a PoD would have death scales, Lord of the Hunt growth, Oracle magic, Lady of Fortune luck etc.



My point is that it is the scales that make the pretender into a being of growth or turmoil, not the physical appearence. But I agree that it would feel thematically nice to have a fertility god that looks as one.

In the case of, say an Oracle, or generic titan there is nothing to say what kind of dominion it should have. A titan might very well be a being of storms, thunder, devastation and turmoil. Many middle eastern gods were gods of death and rebirth, and should probably have dominions of growth half of the year (death the other half?) and order, since the change of the seasons is a recurring event. Gods of death might have dominions of growth since they command death and pestilence and keep it from the living. Other gods might be harsh and punishing and combine the worst kind of environment combined with a demand for utter order and servitude. If this god uses death magic, fire or sparingly gives fertility to the few blessed is up to your imagination.

Gods do not follow conventions very much. So totally random scales felt OK and gives greater variation. When you meet the Oracle of death you start to think about what kind of pretending god it is. God of all putrid waters? or perhaps the Thief of Freshness that draws the life from the land in an effort to aid its inhabitants and send destruction upon the enemies of the land.

If I redesigned the game I would perhaps begin with scales and then get a few available chassis from there on, but I'm quite fond of random gods. It sparkles my imagination at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PashaDawg]

I love the idea of role-playing in the game. I don't do it enough, and it might be fun to start a MP game where role-playing was emphasized. The yarnspinner games were sort of like that, but I was too lazy to write regularly.

[capnq]

Kristoffer O said: Gods do not follow conventions very much. So totally random scales felt OK and gives greater variation.

The scales only seem random to our mere mortal intellects. The gods' aspects make perfect sense in the light of their ineffible divine wisdom.

Or maybe it's just that the gods must be crazy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Aezeal]

Well it's a strategy game too, and strategy gaming sort of demands opponents that put up a fight. No offence KO but SP dominions 3 just isn't as nice to play as in MP (which usually is so IMHO but I mean it's less nice than MP compared to other games (does this make sense?)).

It's your game of course but I think a majority of the people here would think it was a better game if there was some AI behind choosing the scales (or several dozen pre-created pretenders) just becuase it would then put up more of a fight and not kill itself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Other improvemets to AI would also be nice but just the scales would already help a lot.. or the OPTION to select that (as mentioned above).

As MP game I think is a very good game, as SP not so good.


PS I think the original poster of the thread would indeed be best of to forget dominions 3, if you don't want MP (which is great) and don't like the SP (which I can relate to somewhat) then please have fun with other games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Tichy]

Fantastic.

"FEAR ME! FOR I AM THE THIEF OF FRESHNESS"

"Noooo! All our breads, they are croutons now! We are lost!"

[Kristoffer O]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

What's wrong with croutons ? Aren't they nice in soups?

[Tichy]

If what the thief of freshness does to bread doesn't scare you...take a look a the soup.

[moderation]

Does it make the soup undead?

[AstralWanderer]

Aezeal said:
Well it's a strategy game too, and strategy gaming sort of demands opponents that put up a fight...It's your game of course but I think a majority of the people here would think it was a better game if there was some AI behind choosing the scales (or several dozen pre-created pretenders) just becuase it would then put up more of a fight and not kill itself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I'd second this - I personally do not game online (so won't ever try MP for Dominions or anything else) and would suggest that many "anti-social gamers" are less likely to post at forums, hence the MP bias here.

The exploration/role-playing aspects are certainly fine for the initial games, but a competent AI is really necessary for long-term appeal.

In the case of scales, it would seem fairly simple to keep the random generation but to add a sanity check to force a reroll when a clearly unfavourable combination (Turmoil/Death/Misfortune) comes up. Having more specific selection criteria for certain nations (LA Ermor probably doesn't need Growth, the Nordic nations shouldn't choose Heat) would help the AI without decreasing variety.

[Kristoffer O]

I think there are some criteria for national scales. This was the case in dom2 at least. There might have been unintentional changes to this. IIRC Ermor was hardcoded to have other settings than other nations and cold/heat loving nations often took the preffered scale, but with the differentiation into eras and a tripling of nations numbers this might have been screwed up, (probably not the cold/heat stuff, but possibly ermor's preferences).

[lch]

Endoperez said:
People still play the demo of Dom:PPP to avoid the turn limit.


Next thing you're telling me that there's still people playing Conquest of Elysium, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif


Endoperez said:
I found the thread from Dwarf Fortress forums, who are used to bad interfaces and not-so-good graphics, but it's still rather amazing.


Ah, those people. Masochists.

---

The idea of having pre-made pretenders for the AI is interesting. Or at least some templates that can get modified/mixed/mutated like in genetic algorithms. Very often you have problems where the initial task of finding a good/valid solution is very hard (time schedules for example) if you do it by random / trial-and-error, but once you have found a valid solution you can quite easily find other solutions by modifying that one a little, through point mutations (little changes to the initial concept). Other games like Armageddon Empires go as far as having a very good AI, but a collection of some couple dozen premade decks for the AI with some hints how it should use them, something like an AI personality of sorts if you want. If we'd ever see stuff like this in the Dominions series, it would be a major success I'd think.

[Edratman]

One change that (I think) would benefit the AI and is easily accomplished is to hard code the temperature to ideal for each nation and then hard code growth, luck and research to 3 (my preference)for all AI nations. Maybe reduce AI points somewhat, but not entirely, to reflect the scales adjustment.

This would satisfy KO's preference for random deities to give each game a different aspect, yet it would remove the glaring weaknesses of AI random scales selection and give it an edge in decidedly benefical scales.

And hard code Mictlan to an awake pretender so they don't die a dominion death in the first 2/3 turns.

[Rich]

I never play mp. The main reasons I bought this game is that it looks like fun and especially is advertised that it has a "challenging ai."

Haven't had much time to play it yet. Was about to really study the manual and do the tutorial again but now I don't think so.

It would be nice if publishing companies had some honesty in their advertising.

[Sombre]

Challenging AI?

That's a weird thing to advertise dom3 as having.

[lch]

Chicks. He meant he bought it because of the hot chicks. But he was afraid to say that. At least that's where the advertisement is true to the product.

[Rich]

LOL. Take a look at the game advertisement page. Down at the bottom. I kid you not. If it had said mediocre ai then I would have saved $50 because I wouldn't have bought the game.

[vfb]

Rich, I think it's a bit odd to complain about the game before you even try more than the tutorial.

I think SP is fun. Of course it's not as challenging or fun as MP, but I don't think you can reasonably expect it to be.

All 4X games can be beaten once you figure them out. So once you're having a bit too easy of a time, you impose self-limitations. With Dom3, usually I think the first one of these that people use is to not hire mercenaries. So if you're not seeing enough challenge, try that.

Play on a big map, against all the AI nations. The ones with crappy gods and/or scales will get eaten by the ones with appropriate gods/scales. I consistently lost against the (Normal!) AIs for the first few months I had the game, when I did this.

[Sombre]

You bought the game based on an unquantifiable strength they claimed in an advert? You got what was coming to you then.

I mean you never heard of reviews? Demos? Forum chatter?

You could have a game with the worst AI ever and it could still be advertised as having 'challenging' AI. It's meaningless. I'm not saying it isn't a ****ty thing to do, but I guess you learned a lesson here, huh?

[llamabeast]

Rich - the AI isn't so bad. It will certainly beat you for a fair while. And you can make it tougher and tougher by tilting the odds in its favour. I would definitely take the time to learn this game - there are lots of very enthusiastic people around here who only play single player.

[Ballbarian]

As AI goes, Dom3 is no worse than any other friggin' game on the market. Give it a rest. It kicked my *** plenty in the first few months and probably still would if I cranked it up to impossible and gave it favorable settings. I am no Dominions master but I am certainly not a novice or pushover either.

Hmmm... That sounded a little harsh.
I will add a smiley. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Rich]

What I'm going by is this thread. All you people who say the ai sucks and isn't worth it. I guess my post is bringing out the folks who didn't write before. I'll go back to getting into playing. It really looks like a lot of fun.

No, I don't think it's odd to complain after just doing the tutorial. Not after reading this thread.

And yes, I go by adverts by companies like Shrapnel. At least I did.

[sector24]

The complaints in this thread are blown wildly out of proportion. Even if you get to the point where you can defeat multiple Impossible level AIs, you've probably gotten your money's worth at that point. Plus the multiplayer is there even if you choose not to partake.

[Rathar]

Nod nod, the AI will obliterate you for the first few weeks/months. After that you have enough experience to learn where its amazingly dumb but then many games are like that.

[Endoperez]

Yeah, there are many strategies that the AI can't counter. Because multiplayer mostly revolves around these strategies, AI isn't a challenge if you use something meant to have a chance against other players. You'll get beaten by the AI a lot until you can figure out some effective counters against the AI hordes. If you start by reading advanced guides on how to beat the AI, the period where the AI is able to challenge you will be much shorter, of course.

[Tuidjy]

I you refrain from using mercs, thugs, supercombatants and battlefield enchantments
even normals AIs could give you a hard time. But why would you insist on playing
the AI? There are MP games for all skill levels. You've already found this forum,
so you are the right place to find a game.

[thejeff]

Why would you insist?

Because you can only play irregularly. Because you don't want to deal with diplomacy.

Because it's fun.

I tend to enjoy the lower levels, where there's less to deal with every turn. The first 2-3 years of a game. After that it usually becomes more work than I want to deal with. Less so in MP, but it still happens.

Luckily, those early years are where the AI does well. On impossible, it can throw huge decent armies at you from all sides. And you don't yet have the really abusive tactics to stop it cold. Thugs, but no real SCs (if you avoid SC pretender), battle magic is mostly evocations and the weaker buffs. Fighting the AI on something resembling it's own terms is not trivial.

[Renojustin]

That's such a good point Thejeff. In order to have a decent chance of imposing your game plan against Impossible AIs (which I like to play against most of the time), especially in early and midgame, you have to have great skill, knowledge, and maybe most importantly, not be unlucky.

If you start getting squeezed between 2 or more Impossible nations set to Aggressive (try setting them all to impossible and aggressive!) you're in a pretty scary position as they hurl army after army at all sides of your empire.

It's pretty good practice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zeldor]

And you rather do not star beating AI before trying MP and learning MP tricks.

Now I would really want to get better AI after couple MP games. The worst thing in MP is that you get just one turn every 1-2 days. But sometimes you want to make 10 a day and sometimes you do not want to touch Dominions for a week. And you really don't have a choice when in MP.

[Wauthan]

I guess I could fit quite well into the SP crowd, having never played an MP game with anyone but my close friends. Online gaming simply takes way too much time to be of any interest to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

And I fully agree that Dominions 3 can be mindnumblingy boring as the battle against the AI drags on and on. The lack of diplomacy means that the only interaction is war to the very last drop of blood. The ability to "win by pantheon" would be much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yet here I am, in spite of knowing Dominions 2 down to every last bolt and screw, and I can't see Dominions 3 as anything but one of the best fantasy TBS ever. For me the best part of the game is the customisation. I can't think of a game that's easier to mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Creating your own perfect enemy, tailormade to take advantage of the AIs strengths, is almost too much fun. The last mod made the CBM look like a tiny footnote in comparison. Heck, it got so bad that I couldn't remember what I hadn't changed. So I started over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PvK]

I enjoy both SP and MP, but I mainly choose SP, largely because of time limits and the ways I enjoy playing. It's challenging if you know how to enjoy a game by playing it thematically, with creative settings, house rules, mods, roleplaying, etc.

[Agema]

Sure, the AI isn't brilliant. But it's enough to give you a run for your money and have fun exploring the game. You can get more hours out of Dom3 than your average first person shooter, without ever doing MP.

From independent to mass-market strategy, AIs of about human level are in perilously short supply. Your average strategy game is massively more complex than chess, and when you consider how long and how much effort it took to get good chess AIs, expecting it of computer games - especially when they have to code the rest of the game and think about the next title as well - is a MASSIVE ask.

Be thankful that the AI doesn't just gormlessly dribble on you a bit before falling over it's own shoelaces. If it can challenge you in the learning curve and keep you busy when you're reasonably experienced (as Dom3 can), the designers have done enough.

[Aezeal]

Be thankful that the AI doesn't just gormlessly dribble on you a bit before falling over it's own shoelaces --> mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Sombre]

AI EA or LA Mictlan doesn't dribble on you unless it's by total accident and it's a /very/ small map. It's almost always dead long before it gets the chance.

[lch]

I think this post on the SA forums sums up quite nicely everything there is to say about the Dominions AI:


Bouquet posted:

Node posted:
How is the AI?

Is the game balanced or too easy once your nation gets to a certain point?



The AI is not a highlight. It's enough to keep someone like me who doesn't have consistently available time for multiplayer entertained, but there are quite a few strategic nuances that the AI doesn't really understand and can't effectively defend against. The AI tends to be better at massing troops than most humans, though, because most humans don't have the patience to collect troops from every territory.

If you are a king of strategy games and want to be challenged, you will need to play humans eventually. If you just like stomping on thousands of human infantry with your unstoppable horde of angels/devils/zombie gods/zombie woolly mammoths/tarrasques/things man was not meant to see the AI can keep you entertained for years.

[Zeldor]

I have found that Better Independents mod really gives you challenge against many mighty AIs, especially when you take Drain scale.

[Alderanas]

or if you want more of a challenge then download the single age mod and put all the nations that would use death scales in the game.