Who is the most powerful nation and why?

[moderation]

Who is the most powerful nation and why? I have some guesses, but I'd rather not taint the poll results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif What do you think?

[OmikronWarrior]

EA: Lanka- Does this one really need any explanation? Powerful blood magic, powerful sacreds, undead.

MA: I'm not terribly familiar with this era, but I still went with Ermor.

LA: Ermor again, even with the so called nerf this nation can just overwhelm the rest with free units.

[Velusion]

LA R'lyeh has LA Ermor beat hands down in my book.

[Xietor]

I really only play the MA, but fought some of the other eras in the Big Game:

1. EA Lanka insane bless, powerful summons, demons do not have as many counters as undead, and decent air magic.

2. MA-no race really strikes dread in me in the MA.
But Ermor and Pythium are likely the top 2.

3. LA Ryleh

[Jazzepi]

Velusion said:
LA R'lyeh has LA Ermor beat hands down in my book.



I agree, especially with the way that Ermor's death domain is now.

Jazzepi

[moderation]

How does EA Lanka stack up against EA Mictlan? I was reading a thread comparing who was the most powerful blood nation (I will post it if I can find it again). The gist of the arguments seemed to be Lanka is more versatile, but Mictlan is more focuses and has lower upkeep for it's primary blood hunters. Of course, perhaps you could switch to using summons for blood hunting and then not pay any gold upkeep, but I'm not sure how well that would work.

[Shovah32]

Yeah, for me R'lyeh just has LA under control.
Only water nation? Check. Strongest astral magic in an age where a huge number of nations have weak astral magic on their mages? Check. Powerful magic, even compared to the other strong magic nations of the age? Check.

They are pretty much good all-round. Troops aren't great, but they have great magic compared to most LA Nations and magic that is great against many LA nations along with dominance of the sea. Sure, Ermor can send undead down, but R'lyeh gets some death magic, decent priests(who also make good researchers) and mind blasters who can tear Ermor apart.

[vfb]

MA Ulm 1: Dedas, was that you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Omnirizon]

Given the unanimous agreement on LA Ermor and Ryleh, what nations of LA, besides those two, are the most powerful?

[moderation]

Maybe LA Mictlan? I'm a fan of Mictlan's simplicity and power, but also a bit biased.

[Shovah32]

Without those two? I'm personally a big fan of Agartha, but I don't know if I'd say they're the best.

[Foodstamp]

I think with the other nations it depends on map size, number of players and other game settings.

[sector24]

LA C'tis and Arcosephale are both pretty powerful.

[Aethyr]

I would say LA Marignon: powerful mages/priests, blood, angels.

[Lingchih]

But... to play LA R'lyeh. What a beating. Yes, your recruit freespawn all over your dominion. But then, you have to feed them. And find Commanders who can lead them off to war. All the while, your commanders are going insane. Even your Starspawn will sometimes go insane. It is a powerful nation, I agree, but I will never play it again.

[Aethyr]

Lingchih said:
But... to play LA R'lyeh. What a beating. Yes, your recruit freespawn all over your dominion. But then, you have to feed them. And find Commanders who can lead them off to war. All the while, your commanders are going insane. Even your Starspawn will sometimes go insane. It is a powerful nation, I agree, but I will never play it again.



And I will never play against it again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[OmikronWarrior]

In the one LA game I played against R'lyeh and Ermor, Ermor won. So, I'm a might biased in that regard.

[Twan]

EA... I answered Fomoria, not because I think it's the only best but because it's a good example of the strengths of a good nation in EA (good sacred, high hp units, extremely good national thugs). I could have said Niefelheim or Lanka instead (EA Atlantis has these qualities too, but can't be in the list because Oceania wins in the seas).

MA... I answered Arcocephale, not because I think it's the only best but because it's a good example of the strengths of the good nations in MA (cheap and powerful mages mastering one of the overpowered paths but also diversified ; some good units for early expansion). I could have said Pythium or C'tis instead.

LA... I answered Rl'yeh, because I think it's by far the most dangerous and a good example of the strengths of the two best nations in LA (freespawns, water access). Ermor is the number two.

[Dedas]

vfb said:
MA Ulm 1: Dedas, was that you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



No me... honestly! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

I voted Lanka, Pythium and Ermor.

LA Ermor may be a bit more handicapped with the dom kill increase which may now make LA R'lyeh the most powerful in LA. We will after see.

There should have been an option of the age is balanced overall, no one nation stands out as extremely powerful. As in EA and MA the nations are very well balanced with each another.

[Zenzei]

Okay, I'll bite. How can Lanka possibly be viewed as the most powerful EA nation if it doesn't actually win normal-sized* games (according to the hall of honor thread)? Lanka certainly seems, and probably is, a strong nation but competitors like Caelum, Helheim and Tien Chi have some proof for their competence.

*By normal-sized I mean a game with 8+ nations, which seems to be the standard.

[Twan]

I think we have all answered to "who is the most powerful on paper / in theory ?".

But in practice, in 8+ players games several nations often gang against the most powerful ones (it's probably why Ulm has won several games, nobody think a coalition is needed to stop them).

ps : also glamour nations like Helheim were overpowered in the beginning, and scored some of the first victories, but after several nerfs are now not exceptionnally strong

[WraithLord]

My vote,
LA Caelum. For three reasons, mobility, mobility and mobility. Seriously, their raiding capabilities, options for quick retreat or quick reinforcement, cloud trapezing is unparalleled and extremely hard to stop by non flying nations (which I think covers all other nations)

MA Pythium, Top notch mages and troops, strong astral (the most powerful path) and dirty cheap communions combine to make the strongest nation in this era and one of the strongest in the game

LA Ermor, I could be wrong here since I have little MP experience with or against LA R'lyeh (Basically one MP game won by Jurri playing LA R'lyeh).

[kasnavada]

The best nation is pangaea, all ages. Because I have fun with it.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[ano]

LA R'lyeh is a splendid nation, Lingchih. And all you say about it is a matter of micromanagement. R'lyeh just requires much more of it than any other nation in the game, probably (Mictlan does require much too). But without (rather) deep micromanagement you won't do well with any nation, I think.

[Jurri]

LA Ermor, I could be wrong here since I have little MP experience with or against LA R'lyeh (Basically one MP game won by Jurri playing LA R'lyeh).

!
Hell no, must have been someone else http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's such an obviously imbalanced nation that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

I think that the most powerful nations without contest are those that have freespawns, that is, LA R'lyeh and Ermor (with R'lyeh better by a huge margin), and nations that have recruitable affordable reanimators, that is EA Lanka and MA Ermor. (Yomi has recruitable reanimators, but those are weak and expensive and capital only besides.) For obvious reasons, I would think.

[coobe]

i went for ea mictlan, ma ermor and la rlyeh

didnt have to think long to come up with this choice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Reverend Zombie]

Lanka has lots of stuff they can do, but I find that they can't do it all in any given game, which detracts from their total power in my view.

You'll want to run up the Blood research ladder, for example, to get good summons, but that doesn't leave you with very good battle magic.

And running up the evocation ladder for Lanka's battle mages seems underwhelming. The really good air spells are pretty far up, and I think between a choice of Blood or Evo, you want to go Blood with Lanka.

[Kamamura]

ULM! And all who deny it must die!

[Cor2]

Ah! So the culprit is exposed.

Looks like I am the only one who voted fro LA pythdom, sacred hydras people! Comeon!

[Xietor]

Looking at the MA, I do not think ctis belong in the top tier. They are too vulnerable early to solar rays, high level priests, and paralyze(which stops skelly spammers cold).

Their troops/mages can be somewhat neutralized by the cheap spell wolven winter cast in the province before the fight occurs. Ctis is certainly above average though. Very strong research and powerful death magic.

If they make it to the midgame look out. Banelord armies.


Arcos is also very good, but i give pythium/ermor an edge because of the weak national summons and arcos weak castle bought troops in the midgame.

Against an astral race elephants are less deadly. Though they have lots of s gems and mind hunt, they do not get to spend their gems on Angels. And nothing laughs at elephants quite like a hydra.

So while Arcos is definitely upper tier, i would not put them above Ermor or Pythium.

[Falkor]

EA: Nifelheim, for 3 SC's on turn6.
MA: Pythium, for nice balance between strong magic and decent troops.
LA: Ermor, for all the design points by pretender creation.

[B0rsuk]

Atlantis > Pythium. Principes are slaughtered by coral armor infantry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif.
I know, I know...

[WraithLord]

Darn, my memory is not what it used to be. I checked the game thread (DDD) and indeed you played LA Mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

R'lyeh was played by okiN and although fared well wasn't a real threat to you.

[Baalz]

moderation said:
How does EA Lanka stack up against EA Mictlan? I was reading a thread comparing who was the most powerful blood nation (I will post it if I can find it again). The gist of the arguments seemed to be Lanka is more versatile, but Mictlan is more focuses and has lower upkeep for it's primary blood hunters. Of course, perhaps you could switch to using summons for blood hunting and then not pay any gold upkeep, but I'm not sure how well that would work.



I was arguing in that thread (too lazy too look it up) that EA Mictlan has a tighter focus on blood than Lanka for a couple reasons. Not only are the blood hunters cheaper, so are their sacreds - and well pretty much everything. Mictlan also has greater motivation to focus on blood whereas Lanka could very well do a very effective weak or no blood strategy. Mictlan also has a good upkeep free national summonable blood hunter (who doubles as a leech spamming assassin) that pays for herself in about half a year. I'm not as familiar with Lanka, do they have a reasonably priced summonable blood hunter?

I think that Mictlan will be able to pull in more blood slaves and has more motivation to focus on blood research. I think they are the heavyweight champions of the blood game, but I don't know that I think they're overall stronger than Lanka.

[moderation]

Baalz: I found the Lanka vs Mictlan thread (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=491739). I think one of the interesting things about Mictlan is that has less options early on, which can be refreshing. As a new player, I find that there are so many different directions that it is difficult to figure out what the optimal path to the mid-game is, so it's nice to have a clear cut objective, which is what I liked about your take on Mictlan. Of course having less options can also be a weakness... In any case, no comment for me on which nation is more powerful until I play a few more games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lingchih]

moderation said:
As a new player, I find that there are so many different directions that it is difficult to figure out what the optimal path to the mid-game is, so it's nice to have a clear cut objective, which is what I liked about your take on Mictlan.



I always have a clear cut objective when I start any MP game. Then I invariably waffle and change my mind halfway through the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[moderation]

Lingchih said:I always have a clear cut objective when I start any MP game. Then I invariably waffle and change my mind halfway through the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



What's that saying, that a plan never survives first contact with the enemy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Anyway, I get the feeling that EA and LA Mictlan do have a decent number of options once they get into their midgame, however they seem a bit vulnerable in their early game if you can counter their sacreds. Maybe possessing an uncommon advantage over other nations during the early, mid and late game stages is one of the markers of the more powerful nations.

[hnchrist3]

Of course there is a difference between winning and being the most powerful. I chose LA-Ermor as it gets tons of freespawn; it thrives under Utterdark; Once it gains dominion in a territory, it is *very* difficult for any other nation to hold on to that province. Ever try to bring a population zero province back up to anything useful? I'm not even sure you can, but I am sure that doing so is a waste of time and resources.

If you rephrase the initial question, you may gain some insight:

"Whom would you least like to be your neighbor at the start of a game?"

Now you know why Ermor and R'lyeh are at the top.

[Edratman]

hnchrist3 said:

If you rephrase the initial question, you may gain some insight:

"Whom would you least like to be your neighbor at the start of a game?"

Now you know why Ermor and R'lyeh are at the top.



I believe that is a much more accurate assessment. It is not who do you think is strongest, but who do you fear the most.

[Swan]

actually i found ma pangea very strong and la ctis ain't bad at least if you kill the priest before they destroy your poor skell