End Game Slaughter Moves

[DonCorazon]

So as I play more and see how the carefully crafted plans of the early to mid game can mean nothing against SCs and certain patented strategies (Chalice/Tartarians), I wonder what if anything can be done to counter. Here is what I just experienced in Capuchin:

TC attacks my huge Niefelheim army with just his Pretender, the Celestial General, who has cast Ritual of Returning upon himself and holds Unquenched (creates Heat from Hell).

His first action is to cast Mists of Deception, then I am assuming the Heat from Hell damages his pretender so the Ritual of returning kicks him home. There is a message that says TC is routed. Good riddance I say but then to my shock Niefelheim's entire army runs around fighting the illusionary warriors from the Mist for what seems like forever amidst the Heat from Hell. Oh the horror!

Even though TC's pretender vanishes, the Mist and Heat spells remain in effect. The battle goes so long I cannot even bear to finish watching it as my beloved Niefels drop like flies from fatigue and eventually get the message Niefelheim is routed.

Huge Niefel army is slaughtered.

What could I have done to stop this? Is this a well-known end game move?

It seems he can just do this to all my armies one by one...

Perhaps I am just a victim of not having researched and acquired the right artifacts. If the only way to counter these moves is to imitate them, then the game becomes a little less appealing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Micah]

The combo of Mists and a damaging battlefield enchant is pretty much just a flat-out bug exploit, and I wouldn't be keen on playing with someone that was abusing it as such.

That being said the only real counters would be hitting him before he casts, preferably with something nasty like soul slay (or magic duel if he has low astral)...failing that flyers would only need to do one point of damage to send him packing with returning and waste his time, but it's just a stall strategy...air elementals can stormfly as well (might also help in taking out enough of the mist spawn to end the battle)

[Redfrog]

I think using combinations of "mists of deception" + some battle enchantment damageing spell (like wratful skies) and then retreating the caster is considered as cheat in some games.

[kasnavada]

From the shortlist :
"CBT Battlefield Enchantments Battlefield enchantments that affect the whole battlefield for the duration of the battle (e.g. Wrathful Skies, Darkness, Solar Brilliance etc) do not end when the mage who cast them leaves battlefield, even though they should."

I do consider that anything used in a game that is on that shortlist to be an exploit, but some people do not.

[vfb]

Even just casting a battle enchantment and retreating the caster is exploiting a bug in the shortlist:

CBT Battlefield Enchantments Battlefield enchantments that affect the whole battlefield for the duration of the battle (e.g. Wrathful Skies, Darkness, Solar Brilliance etc) do not end when the mage who cast them leaves battlefield, even though they should.

Using this in combo with Mists of Deception is abusive, and it's explicitly banned in some games for that reason.

[DonCorazon]

Thanks, I would likely have lost the game anyway but up until turn 50ish I was in 2nd place by most counts on the score graphs.

With the slaughter move above and incessant mind hunts, I have basically been decimated in a few turns.

Not great ending to a game begun in November. Funny thing to was this was a Newbie game. Maybe some of the Noobs are doing a lot of research these days....

[DonCorazon]

vfb said:
Even just casting a battle enchantment and retreating the caster is exploiting a bug in the shortlist:




Sorry, but what/where is the shortlist?

thanks.

[kasnavada]

One of the sticky in this section :

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=500257&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[Micah]

I feel the Mists combo is in a completely different league than just a cast-and-run, especially since the in-game spell descriptions say "Caster dies or battle ends" with no mention of retreat ending the spell...the Mists combo OTOH is clearly flat out abusive and much more unbalancing.

[Twan]

Wasn't it supposed to be fixed in a recent patch ?

[triqui]

What could I have done to stop this? Is this a well-known end game move?



Not playing with bug exploiting players is an easy solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Twan]

If the mist combo is clearly a huge exploit that should result in the ban of the user, I don't think being in the shortlist is a sufficient condition to be one.

There are actually too many things in the "short" list to make the use of all of them bannable.

Some theorical "exploits" are unavoidable without special micro-gestion (ie : communion slaves casting spells) and knowing how to use them is now part of many strategy guides (retro-communion).

As well casting a BE then retreating, when the combat ends normally (no mist) would probably be tolerated by most players (it's just saving a mage after all). And it may also be unavoidable in some cases (ritual of returning, or the mage failing a morale check).

The politic about some that may be seen as national advantages of some nations / units isn't clear either (things like twiceborn on demons are probably used by some players with particular nations but I never seen complaints about their immortal demons in MP threads). I personnally consider this one so powerful I'd include it in the bannable category (in case of systematic use with nations like Lanka) but not sure how the majority of MP players consider this kind of "niche" exploits.

So, perhaps a list of clearly forbidden things in MP should be made, separated from the general bugs list.

[Zeldor]

That's surely a cheat and there is practically nothing you can about it. You should mention that in the game thread and talk with game host. If player repeats that he should be banned from that game. IF host think it is valid move then you know which games to avoid [and you know that host just found a new tactic he will also use next time, probably even build his nation strategy next time].

[CUnknown]

Yeah, cast and run is fine (even still I hope they change it), but it is fine for now.

But Mists of Deception is just plain sick and wrong!

DonCorazon, I feel your pain. The same thing happened to me, except with Wrathful Skies as the damage-dealer. It was maddening. It is not your fault, there is nothing that can be done to stop it. It's just an exploit that needs to be fixed.

[kasnavada]

Cast and run isn't fine either, otherwise it wouldn't be on the bug shortlist...

[Zeldor]

Though it is not so bad cause it is enough to kill remaining enemy troops to stop it. But with mists there is no enemy to fight.

[mathusalem]

is Danse of Morrigan works like Mists of deception ?

[DonCorazon]

triqui said:

What could I have done to stop this? Is this a well-known end game move?



Not playing with bug exploiting players is an easy solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Not true. Only if there was a list of said players, which there isn't and will never be. After 6 months of playing Dom3 I have a mental list of about 3 players to avoid, mostly for going AI and vanishing. And that is out of how many players? There is just no way to know a head of time unless you just pick a group of friends and always play with the same people.

[Baalz]

Yeah, as you can see from the sample in this thread there's a pretty wide variety of opinions as to what's fair game around quirks in the game, but the Mist of Deception exploit is pretty much about the only thing virtually everybody agrees is essentially cheating. Breaks the game and theres not really anything you can do about it....

[CUnknown]

I think it is something you should state beforehand (just so there is no confusion, even though its true that everyone agrees already), that Mists of Deception is illegal when combined with killing spells like that, I have been stating this with games I host as a house rule.

If this happened in one of those games, I would use the master password to set the offending player to AI.

[Tuidjy]

Who did this? I would set him to AI, and I will never play with him.
Please send me a personal message, if you feel uncomfortable posting
his name here.

[kasnavada]

Sigh...

That is the reason why a hall of shame is a bad idea. Mob-lynching and hasty judgements. The person who did it may just not have known.

In France, there is some thing that is called "présomption d'innocence". It means that until someone is found guilty of something, he is innocent. In that case, it seems to be a MP game, if, once contacted, he apologizes and agrees to rollback the turn, and use another strategy, there is no need to blacklist him, whoever it is.

If he doesn't, however... or does it again in another game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Tuidjy]

He did not know? Whom are you kidding?

This exploit was explicitly described in DangerPudding, when Fomoria, maybe
accidentally, used the sword of storms and the armour of virtue on the same guy.
I know, because my uncle asked my advice on that. And I gave him examples, which
he posted in the thread.

At that time, the Tien Chi player was a participant in the game, and posted after
the discussion. The discussion ended with three people posting that it is on the
short bug list, and should not be used.

So arguing that this is not an exploit is OK (albeit wrong) but saying that
Tien Chi did not know is ... naive?

[Zeldor]

There should be at least list of exploits so people know what is forbidden by community [and things like should be really blocked in game ASAP]. It could be especially good for newbies, so they can spot behaviour like that. In my latest game I made a rule that anyone that uses exploits will be either force subbed or set to AI. Though I wish llamaserver had a way to detect exploits, as you cannot spot many things [for example copying Bogus company orders].

[kasnavada]

Hum, I didn't know that. If he had an occasion to see that it was an exploit directly and abused it in another game... that's abusive.

[DonCorazon]

I'd like to see, and would be willing to help on (though my knowledge pales in comparison to the vets), a stickied post that was called something like Standard House Rules. It would have a list like:
1. No Mist of Enchantment / damage spell / retreat
2. No stealing Bogus commands
3. etc.

Similarly, it could have a definition what is generally prohibited in a NAP with numbered items, e.g
1. No attacking w/o x# turns notice
2. Stealthy troops are allowed to pass through a NAP partners lands
3. etc.

Then when starting a game, you could say all Standard House Rules apply. Or, if there is something you don't want to follow, you could say for example, we'll use Standard House Rules except for #2, 5, etc. NAP rules except #2.

Maybe it is just the (ex-) lawyer in me's love of clarity but I think it would be useful and save a lot of time. I realize there is no consensus on anything, but that is why having numbers would let the host decide what to include / exclude. And would help noobs have a compiled list to refer to at the beginning of a game w/o anyone having to always re-type this stuff out.

[triqui]

So, perhaps a list of clearly forbidden things in MP should be made, separated from the general bugs list.



That would be a nice thing, yes

[Zeldor]

DonCorazon:

Well, you need 1 sections with rules that you must obey ['do not exploit bugs' + list] and a list of definitions of common things [NAPs here, also words like thug, SC, etc.].

[Baalz]

There's been a couple attempts at such, but as I mentioned the mist of deception exploit is unique (as far as I know) in that nobody really disagrees that it is a game breaking exploit synonymous with cheating. There's a fairly large camp (including me) who feel like generally quirks in the game are fair play. There was an exceedingly long discussion about this like a year ago but it boils down to:

1) What's an exploit? Lots of interesting things in this game seem to be possibly unintentional ways things interact.
2) We're playing the game as delivered, not some abstract perfect concept even if we could agree on what that is. Everything from archer screens to vengeance of the dead spamming to the way communion mechanics work *is* part of the game.
3) Strategy is always about being clever to avoid fair fights. Why is it "fair" to bring cavalry against your enemies archers, but not "fair" to copy Bogus' scripts? Is it "fair" to mind hunt a nation with no astral mages? Etc. etc.
4) With the exception of the aforementioned Mists of Deception I'm unaware of any exploits which are as powerful as things you can unequivocally do in game such as casting the forge of the ancients or being the first one to construction-8.

As for a standardized NAP, same problem again, no consensus as to what that means.

[thejeff]

A shortlist of exploits generally considered forbidden would be good, though I suspect there'd be much debate over what got included.

I'd rather not see NAP rules formalized, though. Maybe a clear statement that different people interpret NAP differently, so you should spell out what you mean.
Anything that reduces diplomacy further towards: "NAP-3?", "k" is a bad thing.
I'd much rather encourage a little more roleplaying and actual negotiation instead.

[kasnavada]

1) What's an exploit? Lots of interesting things in this game seem to be possibly unintentional ways things interact.



My definition of an exploit is : something that doesn't work as intended. Items on a bug list do not work as intended (that's pretty obvious). When a doubt arise (VoTD comes to mind), ask the question of whether it's balanced and working as intended. If yes, nothing is to change. If not, it's a bug. Therefore using it is an exploit.

The scripting of Mists of Deception + battlefield wide spell is therefore obviously an exploit. That is only my opinion though.

By the way, it would seem that unlike you said Tuidjy, the one you accused really didn't know.

[DonCorazon]

1. No consensus but at least with a least you can choose to join a game based on rules. And I think there is some common sense involved.

2. Agree, archer screens and skelly spams seem fine based on common sense - these are things that are just effective tactical plays

3. Fairness is not necessarily the deciding factor. Getting mind hunted is fine, even though it is killing me. Now that I know to expect it, I can find ways to deal with it. Same thing with calvary with archers - that is just why it sucked to be an archer in medieval times. But scripting rules (something I don't even know how to do, nor have any desire to learn) seems clearly wrong - it is a strange technical move akin to hacking the game. Maybe its just me but the line does not seem so hard to draw, and again, at least with a list the host can select what rules they think make sense.

4. I guess every game has some strategy that is more powerful than others, that is just unavoidable. Hopefully there are tradeoffs though, so that by gunning for Con 8 you run the risk someone else gets there first or your early game is limited by lack of magic diversity.

[Foodstamp]

An exploit should be defined as an action that keeps an enemy from playing the game. An example would be flooding someone's item inventory with slave collars. You have eliminated the player's ability to forge items and the player has no recourse beyond doing the same to you.

I can't think of anything else in the game that should be considered an exploit, because everything else can be countered, even if it has to be thought about ahead of time in pretender design.

I 100% agree with thejeff concerning NAPs. Standardizing NAPs will cut down on conflict in the game which is a bad thing. NAPs already effectively eliminate some of the combat even though people interpret them differently. And as Jeff said, standardizing NAPs will cut down on communication, roleplay etc, once again a bad thing.

[Tuidjy]

Foodstamp, how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your
incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgable that you obviously are,
I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of
Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning.
And are back next turn, of course.

And if you say, oh, just have a bunch of storm demons/air elementals, well no,
it is not necessarily enough. How many nations can really have that
available every time they storm a castle the late game, anyway?

Now, I am not even asking about killing every single teleporting attacker before
they unleash the combo on an army in the field. I know that a great player like
you will never have an army without storm demons whose orders are copied from
Bogusm, or walk an army through a province that has no nested domes over it.

> By the way, it would seem that unlike you said Tuidjy, the one you accused
> really didn't know.

Only if one believes he does not read the threads he posts to. I'm no electric monk.

[Baalz]

You're missing my point. By all means any game can and should have house rules as to whats allowable in that game based on what the game host thinks will make a fun game. Likewise obviously common sense needs to factor in (I just thought of another exploit fairly universally banned involving filling up another players lab). I don't like the fairly common statement though that the game rules are "no exploits of bugs on the short list" for a couple reasons. One, it's completely unenforceable and leads to accusations of cheating. Two, I have no intention of keeping up with the bug list and I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to. Three, several of the bugs are unavoidable.

I understand why you'd say copying Bogus' scripts is akin to hacking the game, but I think you're off base. What it is, like so many things in this game, is understanding the game engine, noticing how it works and taking advantage of it. How is this different from understanding the turn sequence and timing a teleport to catch an army trying to leave a castle? Killing somebody in an assassination attempt by frightening them off? Frightening an enemy army while cutting off their retreat so they all die? Trapping people so they can't auto route and eventually die (ala Vengance of the dead)? Using archer screens because you understand the targeting AI? Leveraging the fact that stealth resolves before rituals so your raiders can avoid retribution? Taking advantage of a global spell on the first turn so your opponents have no opportunity to dispel it? Using the communion mechanics to let some of your communion slaves cast spells? How about fooling the enemy communion into casting too many spells and killing their slaves? etc. etc. etc.

These moves all seem strange, unfair and technical if you don't know about them and your opponent unexpectedly pulls them off on you. Several of them are no less silly from a real life point of view than copying Bogus's commands (really, you died because an assassin said boo?). Likewise theres lots of stuff you could do "in real life" that is unavailable within the context of the game. That's because we're playing a game, not real life. There's things we can do inside the game, and things we can't. Strange and technical moves are part of the game.

All that being said, I don't personally use anything that I know irks most people. I'm just here to have fun and hope my opponents do to.

[Foodstamp]

Tuidjy said:
Foodstamp, how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your
incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgable that you obviously are,
I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of
Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning.
And are back next turn, of course.

And if you say, oh, just have a bunch of storm demons/air elementals, well no,
it is not necessarily enough. How many nations can really have that
available every time they storm a castle the late game, anyway?

Now, I am not even asking about killing every single teleporting attacker before
they unleash the combo on an army in the field. I know that a great player like
you will never have an army without storm demons whose orders are copied from
Bogusm, or walk an army through a province that has no nested domes over it.

> By the way, it would seem that unlike you said Tuidjy, the one you accused
> really didn't know.

Only if one believes he does not read the threads he posts to. I'm no electric monk.



Do I really deserve so much sarcasm from you? So many crybabies on these boards lately. It should not be my responsibility to reiterate some of the counters that were given just because I gave my perceived definition of an exploit.

Your tears sustain me.

[DonCorazon]

DonCorazon said:
I'd like to see, and would be willing to help on (though my knowledge pales in comparison to the vets), a stickied post that was called something like Standard House Rules. It would have a list like:
1. No Mist of Enchantment / damage spell / retreat
2. No stealing Bogus commands
3. etc.




Baalz, I never suggested using the bug short list. Just a simple list of key items that could serve as a concise menu for game hosts to choose from (hopefully most would be "consensus" but understand there will always be different strokes for different folks).

I see your point about game mechanics and there certainly are a lot of gray areas.

[K]

I know that I'm in the minority, but I don't think anything should be banned.

Everyone can use these tactics, so there is nothing inherently unfair about them.

Considering that all of these tactics have a counter, I don't even know why people whine so badly. For example, if the Neiflehiem army in the first post had exercised a little foresight, they could have killed that pretender with some flying units on attack large monster, or cast spells like Petrify, Claws of Cocytus, multiple +penetration Paralyzes, or any number of other ways. Heck, a commander with a bow or someone with a damaging spell could have forced the guy's Returing to activate before he even got one spell off.

At the end of the day, I'm angrier that sometimes someone finds Echantresses or Wizards, or that a blood nation finds the Summoning Circle, and I don't find an equivalent despite doing site searches for all paths on my territory.

PS.
"how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgeable that you obviously are, I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning. And are back next turn, of course"



Thats actually pretty easy. You cast assassin spells on the home province and kill those mages.

This is the late game obviously, so if you expect force of arms and sheer numbers of units to win the day then you are sadly mistaken.

[Tuidjy]

> Thats actually pretty easy. You cast assassin spells on the home province and kill those mages.

Wow. Assassin spells on the home province. Thank you for your insight! Hey,
but are you saying that someone could actually teleport on top of my capital.
Woah! I would have never thought of that. And those assassin spells! Man,
they can really clear a lab, can't they? Well, I guess this game is just won by
casting assassin spells. Given that obviously no one could ever protect against
them, even in one specific, valuable province in the late game.

Or maybe I will just cast 3 air domes for 60 gems, and have a 99.2% chance
that my capital will laugh at assassination spells.

[Jazzepi]

Tuidjy said:
> Thats actually pretty easy. You cast assassin spells on the home province and kill those mages.

Wow. Assassin spells on the home province. Thank you for your insight! Hey,
but are you saying that someone could actually teleport on top of my capital.
Woah! I would have never thought of that. And those assassin spells! Man,
they can really clear a lab, can't they? Well, I guess this game is just won by
casting assassin spells. Given that obviously no one could ever protect against
them, even in one specific, valuable province in the late game.

Or maybe I will just cast 3 air domes for 60 gems, and have a 99.2% chance
that my capital will laugh at assassination spells.



I was under the impression that domes of the same type do not stack.

I do agree with Tuidjy that Mist + whatever is a clear exploit. Personally I think that BE spells not ending with mages retreating/returning is a general exploit. Obviously they end when the mage dies, so the fact that they don't end when they retreat/return is an oversight. I think it even mentions in a few of the BE spells that it's suppose to last until the mage leaves the battlefield.

That said, since it's impossible to enforce the idea of "no mage retreating" but it's simple enough to enforce "no mist + BE + retreating". And at least if the mage retreats and casts something like solar brilliance, there's still something to kill.

I also think this idea of "oh, it has these extreme counters so it must be balanced" is ridiculous. Considering how easy it is to setup mists of deception + returning + any BE AoE spell there is a real asymmetry in the risk involved verus the potential gain. If you want to cast lots of stupid spells in a given battle, you generally need lots of chaff, maybe a communion, lots of mages to back up the communion / cast the spells, and probably some thugs either kited out to kill other thugs, or just hold the front lines. In any case, you have to commit resources and risk something. With the MoD + BE exploit you risk virtually nothing to kill an entire other army. In every other situation you have to risk /something/ to get into a fight, but when you're exploiting MoD all you're really doing is exposing your pretender, or a pair of mages to a possible single turn of spell casting.

Hell, if you're on defense like Tuidjy described, there is even less risk. Lastly, all of these counters take a lot more effort to setup and maintain then MoD + BE takes to setup and maintain, again contributing to the exploited asymmetry.

Jazzepi

[Kristoffer O]

Tuidjy, even if your views on the matter are quite correct, it might be hard to counter an mist of deception abuse, you could try to be a bit more civil.

There is a problem with the spell, but you should not attack players who try to find in game solutions to the problem. Attack me or JK instead.

[zlefin]

*teleports into kristoffer's house.
*casts mists of deception
*casts wrathful skies
*retreats

i've already attacked him, noone else has to.

[Kristoffer O]

Damn, I've been slain and imprisoned in Tartarus! Fortunately I know a helpful necromancer in Lund.

[thejeff]

Right, like Kristoffer's house doesn't have all the Domes up.

Where do think they test all these spells?

[Tuidjy]

KO: Attack me or JK instead.

Sure! As soon as I make all my programs bug free, I will come at you full of
righteous wrath... But it is so much easier not to cheat, or not to talk
nonsense. So it is simpler to pick on those who do.

There is NO counter to a lab full of collars except to abuse someone else.
There is NO effective counter to MoD/SoS + BE.

And it is not your fault, because bugs happen. There have been much worse
bugs in the years I've played Dominions... But people who insist that MoD
is not worse than hiding raiders disgust me. I have never been hurt by it.
The one time someone did it to me, he wrathed three Jarls with Air Picks.
Everyone else was set on retreat. I did not expect Mists, but I expected
Wrath. Had it been Heat from Hell, I would have been helpless.

But my uncle quit a game because of an _unintended_, similar abuse, then asked
the question loud and clear in his other games. Low and behold: one of the
players in one of these games claims he did not know, and just abused another
player. Yes, I enjoy sarcasm, and yes, I may be an [censored]. But I think that
the two abuses above should be absolutely forbidden, just as hacking the .2h
should be.

-----------

To K, I apologize. Maybe he really thought that assassination spells targeting
the capital work. I have to admit, I did so at some point myself. Hi, Xietor!

[Edi]

Being fire immune, I might as well post an opinion here.

I'm the one who has compiled the monster known as the bug shortlist and I have a fairly good idea of how many of these things behave and also what their impact on a game is.

In my opinion, there are three bugs that qualify as exploits that should be banned. Retaliation against a player using them could be considered, depending on how major it is.

The following bugs are, in my personal opinion, such exploits:
<font color="red">SPELL Mists of Deception</font> Keeps on producing phantasmal units even when all enemies are dead, causing combat to go on forever and autokilling all attacking units left on the battlefield
<font color="red">SPELL Twiceborn:</font> Grants immortality to demons with death magic. A demon with twiceborn in effect will respawn in capital like an immortal if it dies in friendly dominion.
<font color="red">BHV Army Movement: Move &amp; Patrol</font> When a commander is selected to move into a province with a castle and the move order changed to move and patrol, adding units to his squads will not change the move order even if the units do not have sufficient map move. Thus units with strategic move of 0 can be moved from province to province and units with strategic move of 1 can be made to move farther than they should.
Out of these, the last one is situation dependent and the advantage gained may be major or minor as determined by other factors. It can also only be used if the commander and his fast troops are not slowed down by terrain, though I have no idea if the slow troops' lack of survival would ever be factored in wrt mountains or forests. It is non-trivial, but not as over the top as MoD.

The Twiceborn on demons problem is more of a hassle, but is mainly applicable to Lanka, which is generally tough enough to not even need it. Yomi can also exploit it, but given the Oni spirit forms, it may or may not work. I sure as hell would be pissed off if some thug commander just kept coming back after being killed several times even when he shouldn't have.

The Mists of Deception bug is such that if I were to run games, any player caught using the MoD/Damage BF Ench combo exploit in them would get turned instantly to AI, no mercy, no appeal and no exceptions.

Everything else in the buglist is a merely an annoyance compared to these three and can easily be worked around.

[Tuidjy]

What about casting Solar Brilliance on people reading your post?

[Baalz]

rotfl

[CUnknown]

The best compromise would be to annoy the host of whatever game you're playing until they state before the game starts that these things are banned. That way, everyone is clear on what is and is not allowed.

All hosts who think these things are illegal should say so ahead of time, because apparently not everyone agrees (although it is mind-boggling that they don't).

[Edi]

Whoops, sorry about that. Screwed up the color tags and then had to deal with a customer before I could go back and edit it.

[DonCorazon]

Wow that is some nice customer service in Finland.

[Edi]

Happens when you work the late evening shift. Have to answer the phone. I'm off to home now.

[Tyrant]

I pretty much agree with Baalz on this issue. It's a sometimes a fine line between an exploit and clever play, and only things that are CLEARLY abusive should be considered exploits. Among other things, how's a newb supposed to know their clever trick is considered an exploit?

My buddy K is blowing smoke out his butt on the MoD issue- i agree that it's possible to counter it sometimes, but all of his suggestions are pretty iffy. It's exploitive 'cause once it's been triggered there is no counter- the battle never ends and you all die.

But really, what else is there in DomIII that falls into this category? The Bogus script is a maybe- i personally consider it dirty pool, but it's defenders point out that you have to work to get it, and it's not in and of itself invincible, just a big advantage. Also, if your opponent is using it on you you have the opportunity to get it from him the same way he got it from Bogus. The locker flood would be BS for sure, but how's that work, do you do it every turn? If so the perpetrator needs psych help.

Are there others?

I'd also like to second kasnavada's point, a single instance of this should not be grounds for a lynch mob, it could easily be a mistake or ignorance. Continued use is another matter.

[Edi]

Foodstamp said:
An exploit should be defined as an action that keeps an enemy from playing the game. An example would be flooding someone's item inventory with slave collars. You have eliminated the player's ability to forge items and the player has no recourse beyond doing the same to you.


That's an exploit of the message system which can be added to the bug list so that total messages sent to the same player by any single player be capped at e.g. eight. The removal of ability to forge items is only temporary and unless the opponent can keep flooding you with 50 slave collars per turn, he hasn't accomplished much except waste blood slaves that could have been used more productively.

Not defending this practice, it's abuse through and through, but for some reason I get the impression that people seem to regard as if it was a permanent state of affairs once it was done.

[Twan]

In fact it's a totally ridiculous exploit : the victim will just send back the 50 slave collars, and it's the bad guy who will be unable to forge the next turn (may end in ping pong).

[kasnavada]

An exploit should be defined as an action that keeps an enemy from playing the game.



Wiki says :
"In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers."

A bug does not work as intended. Definition of a bug :
"A software bug (or just bug) is an error, flaw, mistake, undocumented feature, failure, or fault in a computer program that prevents it from behaving as intended (e.g., producing an incorrect result)."

Therefore, using that combo is an exploit. Not much more to be said, unless you wish to recreate the meaning of the english words.

[Foodstamp]

I could care less what "wiki" says. If both players have access to it and it is not game stopping, what separates it from a game feature? Only your opinion.

P.S. Tuidjy I didn't realize you were in a game where this is such a heated topic. Next time you will do better to take your anger out on the person in your game instead of me, because when it comes to your insults, I am the CEO of IDGAF.

[K]

Tuidjy said:
&gt; Thats actually pretty easy. You cast assassin spells on the home province and kill those mages.

Wow. Assassin spells on the home province. Thank you for your insight! Hey, but are you saying that someone could actually teleport on top of my capital.

Woah! I would have never thought of that. And those assassin spells! Man, they can really clear a lab, can't they? Well, I guess this game is just won by casting assassin spells. Given that obviously no one could ever protect against them, even in one specific, valuable province in the late game.

Or maybe I will just cast 3 air domes for 60 gems, and have a 99.2% chance that my capital will laugh at assassination spells.



Well, JK says that Domes of the same type don't add up(the 80% is checked until it drops, then the next 80%, etc), and each separate kind of dome is checked separately (Air, then Frost, then forest, etc. and I don't know the order). So with a big enough gem investment you can knock down all a province's domes. JK or KO can chime in here, if they wish.

But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat the situation described above.

Assuming the enemy is patrolling his home province with mages to cast MoD, then:

Turn 1
1. Attack the province with a force big enough to set off the AI's choice to cast gem spells. Set them on Retreat, if you want. The enemy mages Return home, by whatever means they have.

2. Send in a Stealthed SC/SCs/thugs/armies who can beat the province defense and whatever patrolling armies are left after the mages leave. This battle happens after the first because it gets caught by PD and patrols. You take the outer province.

Turn 2.

3. Move in a mage/mages who can cast MoD on turn 1 of the battle. Since the defender gets the first round of actions, then they can't ever use it against you if they try to Break Siege.

Dominion them out, or just invade with a small enough force to make them retreat when you knock down the door (its their home province, so they have nowhere to Return).

If he is not patrolling his capital, then switch to turn 2's instructions, or just send in Assassin and kill his mages that way.

-----------
Dominions is complex enough that there are never "perfect strategies." YOU might not be able to beat an enemy's strategy because of lack of mages with the right kinds of magic, units, or research, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

By the late-game, people should be diversified enough in magic that any tactic is available, if you have enough research. Figuring out what your enemy is using and preparing for it is exactly what this game is about, as well as choosing the right research for your opponents.

[lch]

CUnknown said:
All hosts who think these things are illegal should say so ahead of time, because apparently not everyone agrees (although it is mind-boggling that they don't).


I, as a host, would leave it up to the players to decide what's fair use and what isn't. Which should more or less coincide with the general consensus. Pure democracy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[thejeff]

As long as it's spelled out ahead of time.

Anything else leads to assumption clash and ruined games.

[Tuidjy]

&gt; Well, JK says that Domes of the same type don't add up(the 80% is checked until
&gt; it drops, then the next 80%, etc),

Air domes stack. Check it yourself. It took me 13 turns of casting 10 seeker
arrows per turn to crack 3 stacked air domes. You have to break all of them
at once, or they do not break. If Tangra, Athena and Jesus came together to tell
me otherwise, I would show them my test game, and politely ask them to
help Illwinter debug the check mechanism if it is not working as designed.

&gt; But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat
&gt; the situation described above. [Mediocre plan full of unwarranted assumptions]

Why on earth would anyone have mages scripted to retreat/return patrolling his
home province?! And why do you think that MoD is the only tactic that he knows.
Why on earth would his enemy have free run of the lands around it? Do you
realize that your plan assumes that you have total and utter superiority, i.e.
the war is already won?

And have you never heard that back in Dominions II, when mages would follow the
script and burn gems even against a ghost ride, players had already devised
systems in which enchantments combos would be performed by different mages, in as
many as three battles per turn? No mage will recast an active enchantment.

[vfb]

Wow! I've never tried to stack domes before, I always just assumed that only one dome of each type could exist on a province. How do you see your active domes in the province? With 3 different domes, four sites, a temple lab &amp; castle, it runs out of display space. Do you get a seperate icon for each air dome?

EXPLOIT, EXPLOIT!!!11!1!! Sorry, that's a joke, at least the additional emphasis is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But it might not be WAD.

[Tuidjy]

Yes, you get a separate icon.
Yes, you run out of space, and it looks bad.
Yes, now that JK has stated how it should work, it does look like an exploit.

[censored]. I have air domes stacked three deep in three provinces in DangerPudding.

[Lingchih]

I don't think Air Domes stack. Send me a saved game that proves me wrong please.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
There is a problem with the spell, but you should not attack players who try to find in game solutions to the problem. Attack me or JK instead.



I also would not attack JK or KO for game bugs or lost functionality... ahemm #startspell ahemm.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Seriously all complex programs have bugs, that's why beta testers exist. Some beta testers were good which found and reported bugs... others not so good. Today it still baffles me why Gandalf who was a beta tester never tested all the map edit commands he so frequently used.

[Tuidjy]

Here's a snapshot. I will send you the file and password in private message,
as long as you promise not to talk to the guys in DangerPudding.

I trust you. :-)

[K]

&gt; But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat
&gt; the situation described above. [Mediocre plan full of unwarranted assumptions]

Why on earth would anyone have mages scripted to retreat/return patrolling his home province?!




Because you said:

Foodstamp, how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgable that you obviously are, I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning. And are back next turn, of course



So yeh, now it just sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining. Either its a non-home castle protected by domes and they can't come back next turn, or its a home province protected by domes and they are patrolling it. Those are the only two situations where you are forced into an unfair situation with a MoD and a battlefield spell, and I've outlined tactics to beat them. Any other situation where someone has good mages casting big spells can be handled with any number of other tactics like killing the mages, getting them in melee before they can cast, or casting the spell first.

This whole exchange just reinforces my opinion that the people who cry exploit are just bitter about some loss in a previous game. I know one player whom I played against who started a campaign to stop every good tactic I used by calling it an exploit.

It makes me sad.

[K]

Tuidjy said:
&gt; But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat
&gt; the situation described above. [Mediocre plan full of unwarranted assumptions]

Why on earth would anyone have mages scripted to retreat/return patrolling his home province?!




Because you said:


Tuidjy said:
Foodstamp, how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgable that you obviously are, I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning. And are back next turn, of course



So yeh, now it just sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining. Either its a non-home castle protected by domes and they can't come back next turn, or its a home province protected by domes and they are patrolling it. Those are the only two situations where you are forced into an unfair situation with a MoD and a battlefield spell, and I've outlined tactics to beat them. Any other situation where someone has good mages casting big spells can be handled with any number of other tactics like killing the mages, getting them in melee before they can cast, or casting the spell first.

This whole exchange just reinforces my opinion that the people who cry exploit are just bitter about some loss in a previous game. I know one player whom I played against who started a campaign to stop every good tactic I used by calling it an exploit.

It makes me sad.

[kasnavada]

Except that this particular combo is on a bug list... neither spell should go on. That point are once again forgotten by those that do not think it's an exploit. Obviously because they do not even know what an exploit is.

The very definition of an exploit is using something that doesn't work as intended, and the very definition of a bug is that it doesn't work as intended. It is a bug -&gt; using that combo is an exploit. No matter what counters you have. That's basically it.

And please stop the "whining" argumentation copied straight from eve online forums... I don't really think those forum should have the kind of "ambiance" they have there. It would basically kill Dominions.

[Tuidjy]

Buddy, it's been a long time since I've had a loss. And the only time someone
used a MoD on me, I was lucky enough to be immune to the BE he went with.

You have outlined tactics to beat an one-trick, already defeated pony. Why do
you assume that the mages in the NON-home, NON-domed province will be using the
same tactics as the mages in domed capital.

But this is all theoretical bull. It seems that your suggestion for beating MoD
is "cast it first". When the opponent is acting first, make sure that you fake
him the first time. This assumes that he is stupid enough to retreat the forces
patrolling his capital (as opposed to being immune to his own BE). It also
assumes that he is too dumb to have a second set of mages scripted to cast the
exploit. They would not cast it the first time because it will be already on,
and a fake that lasts five turns and still draws gems is a hell of a fake.

Anyway, I am officially done with this stupid discussion. I will not join games
where this exploit is not banned, and as clearly there are some people who do not
consider it an exploit, I will ask the host to state it before hand. I will also
no longer discuss exploits, because there is no point. I just hope that the
developers make it so that when a mage leaves the battlefield, the enchantment
goes "pfft".

[Edi]

If anyone thinks this they can have their way on this forum by trying to browbeat others, they have another think coming. If necessary, I have absolutely no compunctions about laying into people and forcibly shutting this discussion down if it gets out of hand and I'll flat out state beforehand that if it comes down to that, I will be indiscriminatingly brutal to all sides who make trouble.

The discussion has fortunately calmed down a bit from yesterday evening, but it still looks like feelings are running a bit high.

Personally, I find it hard to disagree with the definitions kasnavada presented in the previous post.

At the same time, it is quite clear that not all exploits are equal. As stated, MoD+BF Enchantment is one of the most egregious ones and quickmarching slow units due to the movement bug is another one I personally find offensive. Same with sneaking non-stealthy troops out of castles, but it's not available to everyone. Still annoying.

I see no point in flaming people for holding those opinions because they can be quite solidly backed up with reasoning. No need to flame people who don't give as much of a damn about them either, but it's also clear that these two viewpoints in the same MP game can lead to quite a clash.

I should also add a thank you for bringing the stacking domes issue to my attention. Onto the shortlist it goes...

[Twan]

As it is the quasi unique huge issue, I wonder if Mist of Deception is a so usefull spell that it should remain in the game without its bug fixed.

I mean why not, if mages retreat/death doesn't end the mist in the next patch, just removing this spell untill it's fixed ?

There are plenty of air battle summons that can replace it for people who really use MoD to summon chaff (if they exist ; I wonder if someone would really use this spell without the mist bug, actually even without a BE the never ending mist look only usefull for some abuses : if it's not exploiting a nasty combo with a BE it's exploiting the turn 50/75 auto-rout, and it may be an as nasty trick if you cut retreat).

[K]

Twan said:
As it is the quasi unique huge issue, I wonder if Mist of Deception is a so usefull spell that it should remain in the game without its bug fixed.

I mean why not, if mages retreat/death doesn't end the mist in the next patch, just removing this spell untill it's fixed ?

There are plenty of air battle summons that can replace it for people who really use MoD to summon chaff (if they exist ; I wonder if someone would really use this spell without the mist bug, actually even without a BE the never ending mist look only usefull for some abuses : if it's not exploiting a nasty combo with a BE it's exploiting the turn 50/75 auto-rout, and it may be an as nasty trick if you cut retreat).



Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors. Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

I wouldn't play an Air nation if MoD was gone. Period.

[triqui]

K said:Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors
Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.



Are you joking? Thunderstrike spam is awesomely powerful. Air is THE combat magic.

Plus i consider "storm", "wrath from sky","fend arrows" and "wind guide" very good battlefield spells. On par, if not better, than water, fire or earth battlefield spells.

[Baalz]

K said:
Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors. Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

I wouldn't play an Air nation if MoD was gone. Period.



I call bull on this. Arrow fend, mass flight, and wrathful skies are all very good spells in several situations. Lighting is the only consistent, easy to access AN damage. Air magic gives you access to flying items - *huge*....seeking arrows - *huge*. I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.

[thejeff]

One of the problems with Air is that there's little synergy.

Air lets you boost archery and shut it down with storm.

Mass Flight can be great, but again storm shuts it down.

To use Storm Power to boost your air magic, you need a Storm.

Which shuts down archery and flight and cripples your precision.

Particularly frustrating since several of the Air nations are also archer heavy nations, Caelum and Man.

[NTJedi]

I feel storm should be a water spell(maybe mixed with air)... especially since you cannot have a storm without rain/water.

[Foodstamp]

I believe there is a water version as well right?

[Cor2]

You talking about "rain", Foodstamp?

[triqui]

thejeff said:
One of the problems with Air is that there's little synergy.




That's true. But still, it is a great great combat magic. The best one in my book.

Thunderstrike is better than falling frost or fire clouds, it is more versatile than blade winds (Which wont do jack on armored units). Air mages get more precision, which is great, and air mages also can cast mistform for example to protect them from strafing arrows. Coupled with a few great early combat buffs (like wind guide, arrow fend) and a few good battle enchants (like wrathful skies), plus the fact it is AN, make it a great artillery school of magic.

Plus it's the second best one, after astral, for thugs. Mirror image and mistform are 2 very good spells as well.

[Foodstamp]

Cor2 said:
You talking about "rain", Foodstamp?



Yup, if I remember correctly it works the same and only costs 1 water gem? I don't have the game/manual in front of me so I am working by memory.

[Zenzei]

I find air magic useful to the extreme for all the reasons already mentioned in the above posts. However, I want to add one thing I think is the most important: Cloud Trapeze.
Everyone knows the importance of having right commanders in right place in right time. Cloud trapeze is almost like having those commanders all over the map, all the time. In addition, when making big assaults, nothing beats trapezing thugs.

[triqui]

Foodstamp said:

Yup, if I remember correctly it works the same and only costs 1 water gem? I don't have the game/manual in front of me so I am working by memory.



It's a different effect i think. Rain makes fire ends faster, make fire spell more fatiguing and a couple other things. It does not affect flying units as far as i remember, and im absolutely sure it does not affect "summon storm power" or the power effect of orb lighting and other "spell is stronger during storm" spells.

[Foodstamp]

Gotcha.

"Rain" is a shower, "Storm" is an all out storm. Does Storm have the effects of Rain coupled with it's own effects, or does it not have the bonus against fire/fire spells?

[triqui]

dont have the rulebook close, but i think storm is just an electrical storm (So no rain and no fatigue for fire spells and so)

[lch]

Baalz said:
I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.


Same here. Well, I think I may have used it once, but didn't find it that awesome a spell to start with. Fog warriors is an awesome spell, though. As are lots of other things from Air.

[K]

lch said:

Baalz said:
I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.


Same here. Well, I think I may have used it once, but didn't find it that awesome a spell to start with. Fog warriors is an awesome spell, though. As are lots of other things from Air.



The one thing air does well at all is Air Shield and Mistform. Thats two spells.

Everything else Air does costs gems, and Air gems are not in my experience a common gem type. For example, building both boosters costs 50 gems and requires A4. Cloud Trapeze, Seeking Arrows, Storm, Arrow Fend, Wind Guide, Wrath of God, and almost every other good Air magic costs gems, and when you factor in the price of making boosters against the number of gems you use for rituals, the raw amount of Air magic you use it very small compared to others. I mean, with Fire I can throw some Fever Fetishes on Scouts and cast Flaming Arrows every battle on top of the fact that I don't have to do anything crazy to get a spell booster (Phoenix Power, in this case). Water can do the same with with sea trolls, Astral with Clams, and Earth with Blood Stones.

Thunderstrike is an OK spell, but it has a small area of effect and your mages fatigue out quickly. People who sing its praises tend to say things like "have you ever seen fifteen mages spamming Thunderstrike?" Yes, but fifteen mages apamming any of the good Evocations is impressive. Air mages are just doing it at a higher fatigue price with fewer kills.

Wrathful Skies is only impressive when you have a small army and they have a small army. Against big armies, I'll take any of the other battlefield destroying spells.

[capnq]

NTJedi said: I feel storm should be a water spell(maybe mixed with air)... especially since you cannot have a storm without rain/water.

You can have a windstorm without any water.

[Zenzei]

Air magic users definitely do not need to do anything crazy to get their spell booster (summon storm power). Just give Staff of Storms for every mage heavy army you have and you're done. Storm is also a very useful spell in itself and worth one air gem per battle, which is pretty equal to the benefit you get from having a fever fetish/sea troll/clam/blood stone with your army.

[thejeff]

Nothing crazy?

Well, it's certainly possible. Requires Construction 6 and a A4 mage to get Staff of Storms, or similar levels for the Storm spell (Don't remember offhand). Compared to the other path boosters, which mostly take only Conjuration 3 and 2 or level in the path.
(Note that's a native A4 mage, since the Air booster items are also A4)

Beyond that, Storm shuts down Flight and archery, which are generally strengths of the Air nations.
Storm is a situationally useful spell. It's great when you're enemy is relying on archers and/or fliers and you're not. Disastrous when it's the other way around.

[Zenzei]

I admit earth &amp; fire booster spells are better than air booster spell but water &amp; nature booster spells certainly are not. Astral booster spell is great if you have a lot of mages on the battlefield, otherwise it sucks.

About the tangle between storm/flight/archery: air magic does not equal Caelum, although the birdmen certainly are powerful in it. Nations like Vanheim, Fomoria &amp; Tir na Nog are top notch air users as well and they don't have any of that flight/archery nonsense.

Anyway, I find this discussion about air magic interesting and will start own thread for it soonishly. I will write my own thoughts into guide of sorts and hopefully the discussion will continue there.

[thejeff]

I was also thinking MA Man for archery. And even without recruitable fliers, the flight spells are all air, including Mass Flight. And the flying boots, quite useful for thugs.

[Twan]

I wasn't asking "is air magic weak or good ?" but "is MoD such a key spell for air mages that it must stay available in its current state ?".

I may add some questions :

- is using MoD without a dammage BE, but with a retreating caster, an exploit or not ?

If you cast MoD and your mage isn't killed on the battlefield, you are completely sure to rout the opponent after a 50 rounds long fight (and if he use a communion with masters staying on the field, you will also probably kill all the slaves with fatigue -and as well any troop with natural exhaustion, like clockwork horrors or turtlemen will be slain by such a long fight-). The only exception may be : if you attack someone who cast MoD himself (as auto-rout happen before to the attacking side iirc).

- is using MoD without a retreating caster an exploit or not ?

If the caster is not slain but routed with his army (or alone after a failed morale check), MoD seem to continue to work exactly like described above. MoD + a low morale army can replace scripted retreat (and be worse, if using casters and units not scripted to retreat is considered a sufficient excuse to allow the famous MoD + BE combo).


IMO, MoD shouldn't be used at all before a fix.

[K]

Twan said:

IMO, MoD shouldn't be used at all before a fix.



Like I said, considering that Air is the weakest path, don't expect anyone to play an Air nation if you deny them one of their only good late-game spells.

[Zeldor]

But there are many ways to abus it...

Unquenched Sword [are there any other items with smth also so nasty] + MoD + Armor of Virtue or Ritual of Returning

Mages casting BE + MoD + Vortex of Returning


Maybe with all that attention now we will get some things fixed in next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[K]

Zeldor said:
But there are many ways to abus it...

Unquenched Sword [are there any other items with smth also so nasty] + MoD + Armor of Virtue or Ritual of Returning

Mages casting BE + MoD + Vortex of Returning


Maybe with all that attention now we will get some things fixed in next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Considering the incredible difficulty in just casting it, I don't think it gets abused as often as people think.

[Edi]

K said:

Twan said:

IMO, MoD shouldn't be used at all before a fix.



Like I said, considering that Air is the weakest path, don't expect anyone to play an Air nation if you deny them one of their only good late-game spells.


What exactly are you smoking and how illegal is it where you live, K? I have never before this heard Air magic characterized as the weakest path. Fire and Water are both weaker from what I've seen, though both have their useful sides, but Air has all kinds of uses all around, which makes it very versatile.

That post of yours makes you sound like one of the people who just abuses the crap out of MoD and is complaining at the prospect of having his toy taken away.

[Kristoffer O]

Edi!

[Tuidjy]

Edi. Edi! EDI! EDI!!!

Sorry, but Edi is 100% correct.

The claim that Air magic is a weak path is retarded.
MoD, which guarantees a win if you manage to retreat whoever cast it, is abusive.
The claim that MoD is the spell that makes Air magic worth it is beyond retarded.
People who protect abusive exploits with retarded arguments deserve what they get.

[Foodstamp]

Your both way too obsessed and "personally" involved with this issue to the point that you disrespect others.

if you are going to threaten people with public warnings about forum behavior, you should probably lead by example.

[Edi]

To clarify my above post: The beginning of it is an exclamation of disbelief regarding the characterization of air magic as weak. Not meant to be hostile, so my apologies if it was taken that way.

The second half, which brings up the MoD abuse angle is something I do mean. K's post, along with his earlier defense of MoD's current workings being okay gives me the perception that it's about resistance to having something exploitative removed simply because he has gotten used to and comfortable using it when playing an air nation. Whether that perception is correct or not is another issue, but it is how it appears to me.

There is no personal animosity involved on my part here.

[Foodstamp]

That post of yours makes you sound like one of the people who just abuses the crap out of MoD and is complaining at the prospect of having his toy taken away.



Really? You wouldn't find that disrespectful if it was directed towards you?

[Edi]

Foodstamp, yes, if there are any warnings to be dealt out here, won't be by me anymore, because as you said, I'm too involved. Can't act as the judge in a case where I'm a participant. So if anything serious comes up, I'll kick it up to Strider, Daynarr, Mindi and Annette and they'll sort it out.

[Foodstamp]

Aye, when it comes to a grey area like this, it is hard to be unbiased even if you are not personal involved.

Tuidjy is involved in atleast one game where the MOD thing has happened, so by reflex he insults other people who bring up the other side.

This topic is on your shortlist, so it would be crazy for you to stay unbiased through the whole thing, because it would go against something you have documented to be fixed.

The best fix has been mentioned a few times already, to handle it on a game by game basis. The best fix is probably not to tell people they are high, afraid of losing a toy (like they are children), or categorizing their behavior as retarded.

P.S. I mean best fix until the devs alter it (if they alter it).

[K]

Edi said:
To clarify my above post: The beginning of it is an exclamation of disbelief regarding the characterization of air magic as weak. Not meant to be hostile, so my apologies if it was taken that way.

The second half, which brings up the MoD abuse angle is something I do mean. K's post, along with his earlier defense of MoD's current workings being okay gives me the perception that it's about resistance to having something exploitative removed simply because he has gotten used to and comfortable using it when playing an air nation. Whether that perception is correct or not is another issue, but it is how it appears to me.

There is no personal animosity involved on my part here.



I'm used to people on the internet using false arguments to attempt to persuade others because they cannot win the argument. For example, attacking someone's credibilty rather than the points of their argument is a classic false argument.

My apologies. I thought I had a valid point. Considering that a number of people addressed the points of my argument (that Air magic is the weakest path and doesn't need further nerfing) means that at least some posters found it valuable or at least interesting. I didn't intend to start a heated and hurtful confrontation.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I agree with Twan in that Mists of Deception should be not used at all.

Even if your opponent uses Mists of Deception as responsibly as possible, the spell is unbalanced. If your opponent casts it, unless you are lucky enough to kill the caster, you cannot win the battle. And chances are the caster will route.

[triqui]

Edi said:
That post of yours makes you sound like one of the people who just abuses the crap out of MoD and is complaining at the prospect of having his toy taken away.


qft

[Edi]

triqui, let's not pour more gasoline on the fire. I made an injudicious comment that I needed to and did clarify, so quoting it just to post some one-liner in reinforcement is hardly going to do this thread any favors.

I should also take this opportunity to make an apology for letting myself get too involved in this discussion in the wrong sort of way and losing the neutrality I should have retained. I do not have any personal stake in this as such, but a moderator should be able to maintain neutrality as well as an appearance of neutrality in threads like this.

So, K, Foodstamp, I'm sorry for that lapse. Hopefully my views as a whole have been clearly expressed after all the clarifications. And since they have been expressed, I expect that I will not take much of an active role in this discussion after this post. I'll keep an eye on it, though.

[Foodstamp]

This thread was really over several posts ago. Triqui's quote should give you a good idea of what has been going for the last little while in this thread, just people trying to perpetuate an argument. I am a bit annoyed I got caught up in it myself, but it was too late that I realized that people were not looking for debate but rather conflict and attention.

[Aezeal]

And I think that Mists are NICE and not using them would be foolish.

/me is looking for gas to put on the fire, and conflict and attention

(what does mists actually do?)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Dedas]

My memory is a little foggy... someone else explain it.

[Wyatt Hebert]

As I recall, Mists is the Battlefield Enchantment version of the lowly Phantom Warrior spell, with possibly an extra fog effect of some kind.

iow, for the remainder of the battle, my side, if I cast it, will _continuously and spontaneously_ generate x Phantom Warriors a turn.

The bug with is that the spell will not turn off if the casting mage leaves the battle by any means other than dying. The exploit is using this bug to continuously generate units for my side of the battle. If I am defending, this means that the opponent _cannot_ win the battle. At best, he will retreat.

The egregious exploit is combining Mists with any other Battlefield Enchantment that either adds fatigue (Heat from Hell) or damages (Wrath of Skies) all units. This will either kill almost all units on the map, or fatigue out (therefore effectively paralyzing) the entire enemy army, which will die when the hard turn limit is reached.

I believe those are the facts of the interaction. Anyone with better knowledge, please correct me. The critical part of the problem is the very identified bug that Battlefield Enchantments will stay up when the caster retreats or teleports out of the fight.

Wyatt

[thejeff]

Are there any other spells that continuously generate units? That could be abused the way Mists is?

The only one that comes to mind is Shark Attack. That's supposedly reliant on damage being done, blood in the water.

Has anyone experimented with retreating the Shark Attack caster?

[Kristoffer O]

Shark attack have reduced max number of sharks each turn, so it is not a problem.

[Lingchih]

Kristoffer O said:
Shark attack have reduced max number of sharks each turn, so it is not a problem.



I think perhaps a bit too much. Oceania and I (R'lyeh) were having a blast ripping each other apart with shark attack. Then, when we fought last turn, we were both asking "where's the sharks?" Only 1 or 2 showed up the whole battle.