Body Armour

[rfisher]

I only ask this out of curiosity, but does the armour that some modern infantry wear, make enough of a difference to a soldiers chance of staying in the fight to be represented in the game?
If it is a significant factor (and to be clear; I've no idea/opinion on if it is!) and it is in the game, how is it represented?

Cheers

[Mobhack]

No. Not in the game, not modelled. Not worthwhile in the game scale, same with AT gun shields.

Andy

[Marcello]

If you want you can adjust a bit the infantry toughness values in the game options menu.
I would guesss there might be a percentage of cases where body armor might turn an incapacitating wound into something manageable enough to stay in the fight but I have never researched the topic. Still between the military and the police some studies might be available if you are interested.

[Suhiir]

For all intents and purposes military body armor is useless against anything but fragmentation weapons. Any full jacketed military round would barely notice anything light enough for an infantryman to wear.
That said, I seem to recall that a study done during WW II indicated that something like 70% of casualties we caused by fragmentation type weapons.

[Marek_Tucan]

OTOH those studies often used just data from hospitals - most head shots etc. won't make it there...

[Marcello]

Suhiir said:
For all intents and purposes military body armor is useless against anything but fragmentation weapons. Any full jacketed military round would barely notice anything light enough for an infantryman to wear.
That said, I seem to recall that a study done during WW II indicated that something like 70% of casualties we caused by fragmentation type weapons.



I am sure this was the case until a few years ago. But with modern composite plates resistance against against military rifles round has been achieved. Interceptor with the ceramic plates can stop 7.62x51 standard rounds, although as I said I do not have a numerical breakdown of what would happen after (incapacitated percentages of body armor fitted troops vs ones without etc.)

[rfisher]

Curiosity satisfied, thanks.
And some very interesting points too!

[PanzerBob]

Given how "casualities" are represented, Mobhack is correct at this scale of simulation.

Body Armour as used and even in the future, only means that more troops will survive, it will not make super soldiers. Even if a Vest can withstand high powered military bullets (and as mentioned some of the new stuff coming out can.) The effects of an attack with small arms and lets say grenades will still make men combat ineffective.

The primary bonus for body armor as used is HOPEFULLY less injuries and death. I have read and experianced that body armor has a disadvantage of being clumsy. Some complaints along those lines have been made. This too is being worked on as the technology is improved. It is a heck of a trade off though to have to decide on in the meantime!!

[Wdll]

I know, in theory, I would rather wear one than not lol.

[Suhiir]

The big problem with body armor is weight and cost.
Sure, there's stuff out there that can stop anything short of a nuke, but even the US Army can't afford to buy it for general issue.
That and the classic weight problem.
it seems that very few people that haven't been a mud grunt themselves really appreciate that adding an extra 20-40 pounds of high-tech body armor to their load just ain't gonna work.

[Marcello]

Suhiir said:
The big problem with body armor is weight and cost.
Sure, there's stuff out there that can stop anything short of a nuke, but even the US Army can't afford to buy it for general issue.
That and the classic weight problem.
it seems that very few people that haven't been a mud grunt themselves really appreciate that adding an extra 20-40 pounds of high-tech body armor to their load just ain't gonna work.



As far as I know Interceptor has been a standard issue in Iraq for quite some time. There were shortage issues in the early years of the war, just like it happened for armored cars but eventually production caught up. Now interceptor,like the up armored HMMWVs, may not be the absolute best but it is good enough and has been available in quantity for some time.
The cost issue: given all the money which is spent training, recruiting etc. an american soldier issuing everyone deployed a set of body armor that stops AK rounds and the like is no big deal. It was not possible/practical/economic some years ago but now it is (IIRC it took some advances in composite materials technology during the early 90's).
The weight issue: like all things it comes down to trade offs; additional weight limits your mobility, the armor traps the heat etc. No doubt there may be times and circumstances where it is not worth. But at least in Iraq it seems to be deemed worthwhile most of the time and vehicles are used extensively anyway, it is not like troops have to climb mountains or march 20 Km in the jungle.

[Marcello]

On a purely anedocte basis it seems that you can get shot at with an AK-47 and if the bullet hits the hard plates you can get away with minor bruises and be still combat effective, but this of course is only a fraction of the possible cases. The soldier who gets shot both in the arm and in the chest is still a casualty for example even if he is much better off than it would have been otherwise.

[rfisher]

Looks like weighty armour won't be a problem much longer!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7351399.stm

[Suhiir]

It was bound to happen sooner or later.
I suspect the big stumbling block for them will be whatever they use to power them. I can't imagine any battery would last long enough to be worthwhile.

[Marcello]

rfisher said:
Looks like weighty armour won't be a problem much longer!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7351399.stm



Not so fast. For a start developing these unarmored exoskeletons into powered armor will still take some time, probably several years. Then even once that happens you will not be able to turn everyone into the Mobile Infantry. Money issue aside it seems to me that a soldier fitted with such thing will not have the same set of abilities that a regular infantryman has. He will be much better protected and equipped. But he will be also bulkier and much heavier. This means he may not be able to go in the same places a normal soldier, even with body armor, can go. He will be also more resource intensive to keep in the field, meaning a further increase in the tail to teeth ratio, which may not be desiderable in some scenarios.
I could see some units being equipped with that, but not something everyone can be issued with like a bulletproof vest.

[Marek_Tucan]

For example some sort of Combat Engineer/Assault Breacher platoon per Bn? Or even Bde?

[Marcello]

Marek_Tucan said:
For example some sort of Combat Engineer/Assault Breacher platoon per Bn? Or even Bde?



Sort of. They could be used to supplement tanks and regular infantry in a Fallujah style scenario I guess.
A limited number might be useful as an intimidation "don't mess with us" factor even in lower intensity situations.
But I can't see much more than that especially early on.
Cost, logistical issues and inherent trade offs will limit their use.
In the longer run robots will be preferable anyway.

[rfisher]

On the subject of robots, have you seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

[Wdll]

None of these will matter when the alien masters arrive.

Speaking of which, any mod that lets you play as any of the countries, against an alien invader?

[hoplitis]

Wdll said:
None of these will matter when the alien masters arrive.
...


"...when"? What do you mean "when"? We're here already! /threads/images/Graemlins/icon27.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon27.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon27.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon27.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Marcello]

rfisher said:
On the subject of robots, have you seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww



Who hasn't seen Big Dog? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
They are working on a robotic tank as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRDs__6dFsE

[Marek_Tucan]

Wdll said:
Speaking of which, any mod that lets you play as any of the countries, against an alien invader?



IIRC, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

There was some I believe German-made (I specifically recall unit names in German) mod for mebbe even good ole' Steel Panthers 2 themed on War of the Worlds, generally WotW redux with more Martian units (not just tripods) and also nice steampunk Terran units (steam tanks etc).

[rfisher]

Wdll said:


Speaking of which, any mod that lets you play as any of the countries, against an alien invader?




Ha ha! The question I was too scared to ask!

It was that thought that made me ask about body armour in the first place, as I was half tempted to have ago at a mod myself.

[Wdll]

rfisher said:

Wdll said:


Speaking of which, any mod that lets you play as any of the countries, against an alien invader?




Ha ha! The question I was too scared to ask!

It was that thought that made me ask about body armour in the first place, as I was half tempted to have ago at a mod myself.



It would be super cool, wouldn't it?

[Marek_Tucan]

Steel Panthers: Clone Wars? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[rfisher]

Stars Wars and Steel Panthers would be very interesting. But themClone soldiers (and Stormtroopers) wear armour, dammit!

[Suhiir]

If any of you have read Harry Turtledove's The Worldwar series he does a very nice alien invasion series.
basically he gives the aliens modern weapons and sets the scene in 1942.
PzKw IIIh VS M1A1HC isn't much of a fight, but compared to the invaders there are of course LOTS of them.
And tho we can't model air-to-air combat Spitfires don't handle radar guided missles very well.
Infantry wise it's not too bad a match up but fire support (counter battery fire, attack helos, etc) give the aliens a good many edges.

[rfisher]

Sounds good, but I'd really want to be able to have significant differances in infantry. I know its meant for vehicles, but I wonder if the 'survivability' field affects infantry as well?