Marverni

[Baalz]

Gah, I've got an awesome Marverni guide I just typed up that I'm having trouble resisting posting.

Must...wait...until...after...current...game!

Nobody type up the definitive Marverni guide in the mean time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Gregstrom]

Definitive Marverni Guide:
Do the stuff that lets you win.
Don't do the stuff that makes you lose.

Baalz, you're out of a job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DonCorazon]

In the meantime, maybe you can provide a preview excerpt. Maybe just as to Marveni's weaknesses, say with Vanheim, for example?

Just for future reference of course...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[sector24]

Horn Blowers have no counter. Totally overpowered nation.

[Ironhawk]

Definitive Marverni Guide:

Early Game:
Research Blade Wind and turtle

Mid-Game:
Summon the ridiculous Iron Pigs
Cast Beserkers and they suddenly become not ridiculous

End-Game:
Buy hordes of useless Marverni troops and laugh at them
Cast Army of Gold/Lead
Cast Will of the Fates
Spam Weapons of Sharpness / Strength of Giants
Stop laughing

[triqui]

Baalz said:
Gah, I've got an awesome Marverni guide I just typed up that I'm having trouble resisting posting.

Must...wait...until...after...current...game!

Nobody type up the definitive Marverni guide in the mean time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



If you are able to create a guide that becomes MArverni a competetive nation, i will officially convert to Baalz's religion and worship you. It is the only nation i dont have a single clue how to make it remotely playable. Maybe it's just that i'm blind and stupid though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Ironhawk]

Marveni isnt that bad of a nation. Yeah thier troops are terrible, but thier mages are pretty solid. They are, however, *extremely* vulnerable in the early game when they dont have enough mages or research to compete. Mid to late tho they are fine.

[Aezeal]

Baalz they playing against you surely met most nasty stuff already.. we can't wait 6 months till the game is over

POST it!

[Zenzei]

I agree with DC & Aezeal. Baalz you have to post something, tempting us like this is just cruel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baalz]

triqui said:
If you are able to create a guide that becomes MArverni a competetive nation, i will officially convert to Baalz's religion and worship you. It is the only nation i dont have a single clue how to make it remotely playable. Maybe it's just that i'm blind and stupid though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif



Oh yeah, starting my own cult. After really studying them I think Marverni is not only competitive, but can actually be a leader in EA. But then again, I think the same about MA Atlantis, and Eriu...so you might disagree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Baalz]

Zenzei said:
I agree with DC & Aezeal. Baalz you have to post something, tempting us like this is just cruel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Just convince everyone in the game kill me and I won't have any more state secrets. As it is, we're just hitting mid game and my best stuff hasn't surfaced yet.

[VedalkenBear]

Well, if you're just hitting midgame, wouldn't that mean the early game information is available? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And Druids are _scary_ good battlemages, IMO.

[triqui]

VedalkenBear said:
And Druids are _scary_ good battlemages, IMO.



Druids are awesome evocation mages with bladewinds, gift of heavens and later enslavemind and soul slay. That is the *only* good thing i can say for Marverni. That alone, however, does not make them any competitive. However, i like Baalz guides so far, so i would bve eager to read this new one as well. I'm pretty sure there is something about this nation i'm not seeing. It cannot be THAT bad as it seems.

[DonCorazon]

Baalz said:
As it is, we're just hitting mid game and my best stuff hasn't surfaced yet.



Now you're scaring me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

I know! Mass slingers! They'll never expect THAT!

Then, evolve into Middle Marignon, and all the slingers will automatically upgrade into Crossbowmen! If you do during the first turn of battle, the crossbowmen will start with volley of slingstones fired from crossbows in addition to their normal quarrel shot!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Somehow I feel that whatever strategy he is using, slingers are only mentioned in the "do not use" category.

[Renojustin]

Don't be TOO hasty to discount slingers entirely, especially Fir Bolgs (ESPECIALLY Fir Bolgs), Marverni, and Mictlan slingers who wield shields.

Slingers can be a pretty nice chassis for battlefield enchantments like Flame Arrows, Wind Guide, etc. Slingers with shields, especially, can run right up to opposing archers and start laying down the law, without having to deal with their intervening screen. Added to this, they're cheap both in resources and gold... they can be an effective counter to a lot of things, and put out some pretty nice dpt.

[Dedas]

I agree, slingers are great if used properly.

[fantasma]

ok, I just play Marverni in my first MP game and heve played them a lot in SP. They got my love on day 1 of my dominions career.

As with Baalz, I cannot reveal all that they have going for them, but some things are really nice about.

First, their troops have shields. Second, they may lack armor but they have high defense. The troops have map move 2, the cavalry 3. The Slingers are really nice with the protection you face in EA for their cost.

In short games, or when you fear rushes, use E9N9 boar warriors. They cost 30gp, have 14hp, regen 3, 20 prot, 17 attack when they go berserk and a shield. Send a dozen with a gutuator and take whatever indies. Even heavy cavalry is no problem. A forest father is the cheapest for that, I think. The N9 is also nice on the boars you can summon. I don't know how fatal

But you do not really need to go bless with Marverni. What you need regardless how you play them are ridiculous amounts of gold. Use order 3! Patrol with your starting army. They are excellent for that, at 170% taxes unrest stays at 0. If you need, alchemise the earth gems.

Research like mad! Take magic 1, at least.

If you do not bless, recruit a lot of the ambitate nobles, they are decent fighters. For 14/17 you have a mobile, prot 12, att 12, def 15, 13hp unit. Did I mention that the troops have shields?

What you need to do is expand fast! I had like 15 provinces at turn 10 and 3 fortresses (maybe the third was still in construction, I don't remember). But then I found an iron mine on the first conquered province.

Recruit as many mages as you can and research!
Thaumaturgy is the most important for early mind hunt, sleep, panic, site search. Then go evocation. Then construction. At what level you switch depends on what you face.

I use hornblowers to boost morale of the unarmored troops (9), sometimes. I place then in the squad and set them to guard commander. Maybe that isn't the most efficient way but they die too easily otherwise.

I haven't been rushed myself, so I don't know if it really works out.
Elephants are best countered by hordes of javelin throwers (def 14) and slingers and mindhunt/panic.
Against vans, poison, mind hunt, sleep and bladewind when available.
Against niefel, you may rush for soul slay, maybe.
Always field chaff with slings and javelins in the numbers! They lack in protection but not in combat skills. Divide them into small squads because they break easily.

Use the best of diplomacy to demonstrate that you are not the easy target they mey think. The point is that you may still lose but that it will be a costly and drawn out defeat. Especially having at least two forts deters the rusher, hopefully. Forts are cheap, a big plus for the nation.

Later, use communions to their best! The stargazers unfortunately are very slow, so you may rely on the 1/4 gutuator as reinforcement slaves.

[Sombre]

You don't get the parry based def bonus against trampling afaik.

[Foodstamp]

I was messing around with various nations the other day trying to look for tactics that people normally don't consider.

One thing I tried with Marverni was a fire9/earth9 bless. The blessed sacreds are pretty much godmode against indies even in ridiculously small numbers. 4 Boar warriors and 1 blesser can rip most common independents to shreds. You can crank these armies out 1 per turn at the start of the game too.

I am thinking about trying them out in a longer game and tweaking the bless with a little less earth for better scales. Probably not the greatest strategy in the world, but it sure does entertain me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Zenzei]

I'm not a fan of double 9 blesses, except for the S9X9 blesses via Oracle, because of the horrible scales that come with them. So with that in mind I used an imprisoned E9N6 great mother in my Marverni test run (first 12 turns). Dominion strength was 7 and scales were order3/sloth2/misfortune1/magic1.

I really liked that particular setup. By the turn 13 I had conquered 22 provinces, had two forts under construction and really nice gold income. My expansion forces, which I recruited every other turn, were made of Gutuater + 6 to 10 Boar Warriors. I didn't recruit any other units because this was a simple test, with additional recruitment I might have been able to snag one or two extra provinces. Indy strenght was 5 and there was plenty of room on the map.

E9N6 bless has great synergy with Boar Warriors because berserk goes very well together with regen and high prot.
E9N6 has also very good synergy with Maverni's mages because it gives reinvigoration and regeneration lessens the effect of old age somewhat.

For some early research I think the best choices are alteration 3 (eagle eyes & protection), evocation 4 (arcane probing & blade wind), thaumaturgy 3 (site searchers & teleport) and construction 4 (clams, hammers, thistle maces & shrouds of the battle saint). The research order depends on game situation but evocation 4 first is probably the safe choice.

EDIT: Looks like my thoughts about Marverni are pretty similar to fantasma's, except for the bless part. I think N9 doesn't give big benefits compared to N6 and berserk is a real liability with sacred human mages. N9 also cost a lot more of design points. Other than that, what was that saying...great minds think alike. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Forrest]

I did 13 provinces by turn 13 with 2 castle starts. However it was a bad start and I found barbarians eat Blessed Boar Warriors. Strange thing was they seemed to do better against Hirdmen and Huskarls, with a little archer help. Biggest problem with this method is that a lucky arrow at the start of the battle leaves your Boar Warriors with out a commander. Maybe I am just unlucky in this way.

Over all E9N6 worked well. Money was not a issue without over taxing.

While you loose the woodland movement, indie preachers make good commanders for this method which combines with the 200 gp churches. Leaving you mages for better things.

Also Heat 2 does not seem to bother Marverni.

[triqui]

***did 13 provinces by turn 13***

That's pretty low i think.

[Foodstamp]

I am going to try an earth 9 / death 9 PoD next to see how that works out. Should be a solid bless for the boar warriors and the mages. I mainly want to see how it stacks up against the fire/earth bless when it comes to taking indies with less than 5 guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Forrest]

I thought you might feel that way. Reality was they just kept dying. In the end I had 3 armies left. One of which had not seen combat. Better than 60% of the Boar Warriors I built were dead by turn 13. I added 15 of those indie monkey archers to two groups just to keep them alive. I did have several provinces next to my capital that these troops were the wrong troops to attack with which added travel time.

I guess you guys are just better than me cause I usually have trouble keeping up with your numbers.

[Spendios]

Some suggestions for new Maverni units :

chariot : was used a lot by celts noblemen

gaesatae : naked warrior with oval shield, javelins and sword able to go berserk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

solduros : armored spearmen

[Zenzei]

Okay, I did my 12 turn test run again just to be sure I didn't get lucky at the first time. This time though I did use indies and mercenaries in addition to national troops.

Here's the setting:
-Map was Aran (comes with the game)
-All settings standard for EA
-I only had one passive human player, Oceania in this case, in addition to myself. I chose this because the idea was to test Marverni expansion capabilities after all.

My pretender was still imprisoned E9N6 great mother with dominion strength 7. Scales were order3/sloth1/cold1/misfortune1/magic1, I made minor change here compared to the first run (sloth->cold).

At the beginning of turn 13 the situation is following:
-28 provinces conquered.
-2 forts built, both have gutuater in place ready to build lab & temple.
-Alteration 3 almost researched. Should have been evocation though because it is nice to have blade wind available by the time you are entering midgame and starting to have real conflicts with other players.
-Very good income & low upkeep.


So with that I can say Marverni really rocks my socks at the moment, the nation is awesome (or at least their early game is with this example setup). In order to convert any non-believers I have added the game file to this post as attachment. It will certainly be interesting to read about Baalz's thoughts regarding mid-late game Marverni when he posts them.

[triqui]

Foodstamp said:
I am going to try an earth 9 / death 9 PoD next to see how that works out. Should be a solid bless for the boar warriors and the mages. I mainly want to see how it stacks up against the fire/earth bless when it comes to taking indies with less than 5 guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.



A nice bless, and a powerful SC none the less...

[triqui]

Forrest said:
I thought you might feel that way. Reality was they just kept dying. In the end I had 3 armies left. One of which had not seen combat. Better than 60% of the Boar Warriors I built were dead by turn 13. I added 15 of those indie monkey archers to two groups just to keep them alive. I did have several provinces next to my capital that these troops were the wrong troops to attack with which added travel time.

I guess you guys are just better than me cause I usually have trouble keeping up with your numbers.



What i mean is 13 province in 13 turns is a 1x ratio. Any nation can do that just using a E9 cyclop or wyrm and not recruiting a single troop ever, so it is the lowest minimun expansion rate possible. Even LA Bogarus can expand at 1x turn just using the SC.


At the beginning of turn 13 the situation is following:
-28 provinces conquered.
-2 forts built, both have gutuater in place ready to build lab & temple.
-Alteration 3 almost researched. Should have been evocation though because it is nice to have blade wind available by the time you are entering midgame and starting to have real conflicts with other players.
-Very good income & low upkeep.


That's a very much better expansion rate, and one that can impress me. Effectively, their sacreds seem to be cheap and, with the right bless, really good for early expansion. The problem i had (and have) with the nation is that i cannot find the "on" button in middle game (other than the obvious "bladewind" one). That's why I'm expecting Baalz point of view about middle/late game hidden cookies in the nation

[Forrest]

Tried it again with with W9N6 bless and a good start. Think it was 6 dom, 1 heat, 1 misfortune, 1 magic, Imprisoned Lady of love.

12 turns. 20 Provinces taken. 3 active armies that have seen battle with none needing to back track and a fourth 8 man army ready to start out. Just under 50% loss rate on Boar Warriors that have seen battle. Lost 2 mages with one being my fault. 2 castles started. 2000 in the bank and 1367 over cost of 119. Evoc 2 and 24 pts short of 3 but 50 RP/trn. I should have gone to druids sooner.

Did no over taxing.

I got lucky and Manhelt the blood henge druid showed up.

Oh yeah, had a group of 8 with 4 deaths take a group of 5 Blood henge druids backed by 2 darkvines, 11 blowpipes, and 44 blood slaves. Which impressed me because of the spell pounding they took. Only lost 1 to the darkvines.

[triqui]

Forrest said:
12 turns. 20 Provinces taken. 3 active armies that have seen battle with none needing to back track and a fourth 8 man army ready to start out.


That's a much better expansion rate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

triqui said:

Foodstamp said:
I am going to try an earth 9 / death 9 PoD next to see how that works out. Should be a solid bless for the boar warriors and the mages. I mainly want to see how it stacks up against the fire/earth bless when it comes to taking indies with less than 5 guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.



A nice bless, and a powerful SC none the less...



I had to imprison the PoD to get the scales I wanted.

For the boar warriors, the death was a tad bit less effective than the fire bless when I started attacking other nations.

The bless obviously was insane for the druids once I started spamming evocations. Even blade wind was dealing heavy afflictions to the enemies depending on their armor etc.

Communion was a bit rougher than I expected, and I required many slaves for every master, even then I suffered more losses than I normal do when I set up communions.

Overall it was a fun test. I am not really into Marverni, and I don't think that is going to change, although it might after I read Baalz guide.

[Renojustin]

Haha, it usually does.

[triqui]

Yes, sure, i supposed it was imprisoned. I didnt mean an "awake" SC, but he will be a powerful SC in turn 36 anyways.

[Zeldor]

Wouldn't Phoenix be a good choice? Especially with CBM and built-in Phoenix Pyre... You can get F9 bless + some air magic for diversity. Bless is not insane, but can help you quite. And you can get dormant one with not so bad scales. Or imprisoned and add more scales/magic. But dormant phoenix with phoenix pyre combined with cheap temples seems like idea worth trying.

[Sombre]

It's worth mentioning that in CBM where the spell iron pigs is significantly discounted, the spell ROCKS for marverni. Instead of iron pigs they get iron boars who have far better stats, are sacred and of course have the whole iron=high prot thing going on. With a nature/water bless they are pretty damn frightening.