Wish and Horrors

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I just tried Wish for the first time to summon some funny things. However, I couldn't resist and wished for a greater horror (You never know...). Well, my wish was granted. The greater horror came, saw, and hacked me to pieces.
Okay, I guess that was intended, you shouldn't wish for horrors! Although I'd be interested if the horrors always attacks or if it's just a chance that he does (like void gate).
The point is, I'm playing R'lyeh, and horrors are pretty much 'family' (I wouldn't be surprised if some of my Vastnesses had a side job as greater horrors). However, if I summon a Seraph, it'll follow my orders just fine. An angelic being of highest morals..., follows and fights for the greater evil of Cthulhu!!! I think this thing should have attacked me and not the greater horror. If I look at the stat line of the Seraph, I'm pretty sure that it's a lot more powerfull than a greater horror when equipped (at least the greater horror I saw).
Is it possible to add some restrictions at least for the bigger monsters so that they attack summoners with opposite disposition. I really don't want be able to summon a seraph as R'lyeh, I'd prefer a greater horror a hundred times even if it's weaker.

[Dedas]

Nice suggestions. Should be more fitting thematically, and I know Kristoffer loves that sort of thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wrana]

Can only add that I completely agree. They removed angels from the common summons in Dom3, so a step in this direction was already made. With a Wish, though, it would possibly be more difficult...

[Aezeal]

who says R'lyeh is evil.. they are just different.. a higher being like a serpah understands

[Endoperez]

Exactly. Their "star city" "falling down from the heavens" would undoubtedly make a Seraph quite sad about their unreasonable fate.

It'd be interesting if Wishes for "angel", "seraph", "harbringer", etc etc various angels would instead summon one of the many possible kinds, with quite small chance of battle.

[Tuidjy]

> If I look at the stat line of the Seraph, I'm pretty sure that it's a
> lot more powerfull than a greater horror when equipped

This is debatable. Seraphs are powerful casters, etc. But there is at least one
horror than does about 320hp per turn of always-hit, unresistable damage.
I.e. if you are next to it, it kills you.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

>> who says R'lyeh is evil.. they are just different.. a higher being like a serpah understands

Last time I checked, enslaving a whole race (Atlanteans in this case) was considered evil. If the Seraph understands that as okay, he should get himself a new job as fallen angel or angel of death.


>> This is debatable. Seraphs are powerful casters, etc. But there is at least one horror than does about 320hp per turn of always-hit, unresistable damage. I.e. if you are next to it, it kills you.

Only the mid-strength greater horrors should be available. The one that killed my mage wasn't really that bad. However my pretender got once attacked by a real badass doing almost hundreds of damage points in a very short time. Fortunately my Kraken was too powerfull at this point (~1400 HP) even for such a nasty. But I agree, this horror type would be probably a bit over the top.

[Loren]

What if you wish for a greater horror and then have spells prepared to capture it. Does this work?

[Professor_Dyar]

Well, to quote the description of Late R'lyeh...


But the Void was not to be controlled, even by the Starspawns.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[ArkhanTheBlack]

>> Well, to quote the description of Late R'lyeh...

Well, I think there should be a chance that things go wrong and the horror has a 'bad day'. Using the void gate is risky too, but getting a super monster like a Vastness is really worth the risk. Summoning a greater horror from wish should therefore bear a risk too.

[Endoperez]

Sometimes the horrors appear and obey you, for a time. Then they disappear. Some of the horrors don't want to move away from the province you summoned them in, but stay in place causing madness in any troops and mages you happen to have around there.

[Wrana]

Yes, for example. Possibly Horrors, etc. should be considered to have Insane 10-50 due to their different thought process... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[capnq]

ArkhanTheBlack said: >> who says R'lyeh is evil.. they are just different.. a higher being like a serpah understands

Last time I checked, enslaving a whole race (Atlanteans in this case) was considered evil. If the Seraph understands that as okay, he should get himself a new job as fallen angel or angel of death.

"Seraph" is just a convenient label for an entity of a particular power level. Your version of the summoning spell will contact a compatibly aligned entity. "Horror" is a similar label that merely implies the entity is more likely to have its own agenda.

"Good" is the label for your worshippers; "evil" is everybody who opposes you. History is written by the winners.

[Edit] Afterthought: "last time [you] checked" was later than the mid-seventeenth century. Judging the past based on the moral and ethical standards of the present is just another case of the "us" versus "them" split that KO mentions in his reply.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

>> "Seraph" is just a convenient label for an entity of a particular power level.
No, it isn't! A seraph is an angel of the highest rank in christian religion (exists in jewish too, but it's not the highest rank there). Christian religion has very clear rules for 'good'. They are known as 10 commandments.

>> "Good" is the label for your worshippers; "evil" is everybody who opposes you. History is written by the winners.
That's just anarchism, nothing more.

[Kristoffer O]

>> "Seraph" is just a convenient label for an entity of a particular power level.
>No, it isn't! A seraph is an angel of the highest rank in christian religion (exists in jewish too, but it's not the highest rank there). Christian religion has very clear rules for 'good'. They are known as 10 commandments.

To my knowledge the ten commandments are not the christian definition of good. Jesus abolishes the law and says that you shall love the next. (Not sure of the english wording here). Thus honoring the sabbat is not part of the definition of good in christianity. Not doing what you don't want others to do to you is.

Actually christianity have less clear rules on good and evil than most religions, at least as presented by Jesus. Jesus places higher moral responsibility on the christians then most religious founders do. It is you who shall know what is wrong, and be judged. The old testament might guide you, but it is your thoughts and intentions that are judged. That is a very hard position, especially since very few have the moral fibre of Jesus. Fortunately Christianity allows forgiveness for all those who are unable to cope with this vast responsibility.

Oops. Sorry. Got carried away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thus both the seraph and the Vastness are not good, by the standard humans should treat each other. Seraphs do kill and maim the unfaithful, quite in opposition of what Jesus said. Vastnesses shatters minds or whatever, probably rather indiscriminately.

>> "Good" is the label for your worshippers; "evil" is everybody who opposes you. History is written by the winners.
>That's just anarchism, nothing more.

It's not anarchism. Its history (the meaning of the term when applied to the study of history), sociology, or otherwise scientific (as in not value laden) perspective. Although the assessment 'history is written by the winner' is perhaps no longer a neutral sentence, but an expression of scienticism (not sure if this word actually exists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

Hmm, lost focus there. My point is that it is the general perspective of most scientific studies that 'we' define 'us' as 'good', while 'they' are defined as 'evil'. If 'we' wrote history 'they' were evil.

Most religions have similar views on what is good and what is not (not kill, not steal, not have sex outside strict social structures, and other stuff that causes disturbances in society) but still they define each other as evil.

Hmm, I did not intend to go into religion and theology. Hope you don't mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Cerlin]

Of course not Kristoffer! thats the whole basis of why we fight! (Both this game and in life!) So it is always interesting and good to talk about!

Being a historian by training you really realize that most all history is just propaganda that you have to interpret. Every religion sees itself as "good" and all those same religious groups have negative things that can be tied to their names. Jihad for Islam, Witch burnings and major civil wars for Christians just to name a few.

At the time when protestants killed catholics, both honestly believed they were right, and that the other side is going to hell.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

>> To my knowledge the ten commandments are not the christian definition of good. Jesus abolishes the law and says that you shall love the next. (Not sure of the english wording here). Thus honoring the sabbat is not part of the definition of good in christianity. Not doing what you don't want others to do to you is.
Actually christianity have less clear rules on good and evil than most religions, at least as presented by Jesus. Jesus places higher moral responsibility on the christians then most religious founders do. It is you who shall know what is wrong, and be judged. The old testament might guide you, but it is your thoughts and intentions that are judged. That is a very hard position, especially since very few have the moral fibre of Jesus. Fortunately Christianity allows forgiveness for all those who are unable to cope with this vast responsibility.

The 10 commandments are the best you can get if you want some rules for 'good' by human definition. The bible itself contradicts itself too much and has too much 'radical' stuff in it to be taken as a clear guide so easily. The inquisitors abused and misinterpreted a lot of stuff to kill lots of innocent people. Jesus said a lot of good stuff, but he has also some very 'extreme' speeches in the bible a la "You will burn in hell even if you just think bad of someone". Nobody can fullfill such extreme standards of moral and the also can't be considered as good. However, you are right to say that some common sense is needed to decide what's good an evil. In some conditions you have to fight and kill to save others. It's a very grey area sometimes.


>> Thus both the seraph and the Vastness are not good, by the standard humans should treat each other. Seraphs do kill and maim the unfaithful, quite in opposition of what Jesus said. Vastnesses shatters minds or whatever, probably rather indiscriminately.

Usually, the angles fight for the good, which means they only fight to protect others. Therefore they only fight if they have to and not for pleasure and egoism. However there also a bunch of fallen angles like Satan, Belial, etc. So angles are probably not perfect.


>> It's not anarchism. Its history (the meaning of the term when applied to the study of history), sociology, or otherwise scientific (as in not value laden) perspective. Although the assessment 'history is written by the winner' is perhaps no longer a neutral sentence, but an expression of scienticism (not sure if this word actually exists ).

History WAS anarchism² in most cases. However, in order to live in a social community you have to break the restrictions of anarchism. Therefore, even if human history is quite rough, the normal life was usually guided by the social rules of living peacefull together.

[Wrana]

even if human history is quite rough, the normal life was usually guided by the social rules of living peacefull together.


or, "peace is an abstraction we draw from the fact that there were short stints between wars". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Normal life was & is guided by the purpose of society's survival. And this has little in common with all-encompassing value of peace... Of course, anarchism didn't take this into account, so anarchists & those close to them thought that individuals can think out & bring about an eternal peace unobstructed by evil of governments... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Professor_Dyar]

The Vastness in Dominions is clearly inspired by Yog-Soloth, one of the Outer Gods of Lovecraft, but is not as openly hostile as some of Lovecraft's other lovelies like Cthulhu. Obviously, Yog-Soloth is way more powerful than anything in Dominions short of the Pantokrators themselves, so the Vastnesses can only be aspects of Yog-Soloth. I am curious to whether Yog-Soloth can have conflicting sides to its 'personality'...

[capnq]

Professor_Dyar said: I am curious to whether Yog-Soloth can have conflicting sides to its 'personality'...

They only seem like conflicts to our pathetically limited human comprehension. One of Lovecraft's underlying themes is that most human conceits simply don't apply in the universe at large.

[Gregstrom]

Is that conceits or concepts?

[Sombre]

Either works.

[Sombre]

Is that works or functions?

[capnq]

In this context, I prefer "conceit", because it implies our arrogant and usually unfounded confidence that we're correct.

[Tifone]

The community of this game is so damn awesome ^^ - I mean - have you ever seen the fans of any console fast paced shoot-em-up, compose aikus and poetry about their favourite game; or start talking about one of the endless lesser aspects of the game mechanics and end up talking about religion, theology, the inconsistence of the "good" and "evil" dualism...? ^^ simply GREAT

[JimMorrison]

ArkhanTheBlack said:
>> Thus both the seraph and the Vastness are not good, by the standard humans should treat each other. Seraphs do kill and maim the unfaithful, quite in opposition of what Jesus said. Vastnesses shatters minds or whatever, probably rather indiscriminately.

Usually, the angles fight for the good, which means they only fight to protect others. Therefore they only fight if they have to and not for pleasure and egoism. However there also a bunch of fallen angles like Satan, Belial, etc. So angles are probably not perfect.



Well, since this thread is resurrected. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Heavenly Choir - This spell calls down a Seraph from the heavens so that he can serve the Pretender God.


There are two very important things to note here. First, at least 8 of the pretender chassis available to Marignon are what we as humans would typically portray as "evil" (Baphomet, Cyclops, Manticore, etc). So thematically, the spell itself cannot be a request - it is a demand by the pretender that the Seraph smite his or her foes, and the Seraph is doing its duty.

Second, when you use the Wish spell, this Seraph has even less choice in the matter. When you Wish, you are not asking for a visit, you are asking for complete possession of the object of your desire. When you wish for a Seraph, you have an image in your head, and you call this being down and bind it to your will - it is yours to command.


Also a side note, since "Christianity" doesn't exist in the Dominions universe, one can only postulate that while the Seraph is modeled after an angelic being that exists in Judeo-Christian myhtology, you are in actuality summoning something a bit different.