Newbish question

[Dexlyn]

Now, I have played several single player games, but I am enetering my first Multiplayer. I need to know where the pretender god files are so I can send mine in.

[Ironhawk]

I believe its in ... like savedgames/newlords?

I'm at work tho and cant confirm

[Jagdpanther]

Yes, pretender god files are in ~/dominions3/savedgames/newlords

[Tyrant]

That's right for XP, but they are hidden elsewhere in Vista.

[Agrajag]

Then probably something like %appdata%/Dominions3/savedgames/newlords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
(Note: I don't have Vista)

[kasnavada]

There are in the "right" folder for my installation on vista...

DOMINION_HOME/savedgames/newlords

[GrudgeBringer]

I am not sure if this is the correct post to ask these questons but I am JUST starting and have 4 or 5 questions that I can not seem to find an answer to (maybe becausr they are too NEW...).

1. I am playing Nielfelheim for my first game and have seem some posts that this really isn't the one to 'get started with' could someone reccomend maybe onr that would be more of a match for a noob?

2. I am not clear on magic 'paths'. I mean when I am creating I used points to get 6 nature Icons so I could get 10% regenerative property. My question is this (in 2 parts)
1. Once you submit the anount of icons in the setup how do I go from 6 to say 10 in the nature path?
Is it experiance or am I stuck with what I set up.

2. How do I get another path AFTER initial setup?
I see that I can do it at a cost of 80 points at setup but I really don't want to spend them at that point (say I want to start an Astral path to go with my Nature Path...

3.When casting spells do they stay in effect until the caster is moved, killed, ot just the turn is over and do I have to recast every turn?

4. I have bben sending out a Priest behind my army to check for 'hidden magic sites' (there HAS to be an easier way) and have found some. However, while they show up in my screen it seems that they dissaper in a turn ot 2. Is that normal or are they supposed to accumulate?

I have noticed that my army gets about 3 to 4 provinces away and they start starving...will building a Fort/Citidel in that province ect help that.

Last question (LOL, for this post anyway)I have been putting my Pretender on the Imprisoned setting to get the extra points and figuring that for the first 30 or so turns I will be ok if I don't get to froggy and attack everything in sight.

I understand there are 1000 ways to play this game but I would like to get off at least to a good understanding as I have started over 12 times because of these questions.

ANY help would be appreciated and I thank you guys (and girls) who take the time to help us Noobs out!!

[Humakty]

1 : I don't play MP

2 : 1 : ????
2 : you have to empower, costs LOTS of gems, you'll find the command in the order menu, with research, defend...

3 : Globals stay in effect till the caster dies or someone dispells/replaces it. Other rituals can be cast monthly (for summons and remote search spells), just click M (shift+m)while selecting a mage.

4 : there are some spells to remotedly search provinces for every magic, you'll find them at conjuration 3, thaumaturgy 2, evocation 2, blood 2.
What does disappear ? gems ? sites ?

In MP, it is dangerous to have an imprisoned pretender if you don't have a strong bless.

[thejeff]

2) There are also items you can forge that will raise your level in a path while you have them equipped.
And, though not to raise personal level, you can get access to higher levels by summoning.

For example: A 2 death mage can forge a Skull Staff, bringing him to Death 3, which lets him summon a Mound Fiend, who has Death 3 already and can use the Staff to reach D4 and forge a Skull Helmet to reach D5 and summon a Lich who has D4 and can reach D6 with those items, etc, etc.
Obviously this requires much research and some planning.


Other note, you say you went to Nature 6 to get 10% regen. This doesn't apply to the pretender, but to blessed sacred troops. (Regen is very good for you Neifel giants, since they have a lot of hp.) These blesses are set at pretender creation. Adding paths/levels to your pretender, by empowering using gems or with items, later does not change them. Nor does losing paths, which happens when you call you r pretender back from death.

[llamabeast]

1. Niefelheim is not a terrible choice, it can be fun stomping things with giants. The most common recommendations are the various Middle Era human nations, particularly Man, Ulm and Marignon. Man is based on England and Arthurian legend - it has knights, longbowmen and witches. It's not too good on magic. Ulm is a germanic nation of super-heavy armour, but has terrible magic. Marignon is probably my favourite - as well as decent troops, their fire mages excel at tossing fireballs around, so they can be good for starting to get a handle on the magic system.

2. The paths of a mage never really increase - this threw me as well when I started. It IS possible, by empowerment, but that is very expensive and only rarely a good idea. However, mages can use magic items to boost their magic skills. You can forge these once you do some research in Construction. Check the manual to find boosters for the paths you're interested in. For nature for example, the easiest booster is a Thistle Mace, for which you need to research Construction 4, and which you can forge with a Nature-2 mage. The Thistle Mace gives +1 nature to whoever holds it.

3. What kind of spell do you mean? Mostly they do what seems reasonable. Spells cast on the battlefield end when the battle ends. Ritual spells (those cast from the main map) just do whatever you'd expect from the description, I guess.

4. The least labour intensive way to search for magic sites is to use spells to do it from afar. Most of these are in Thaumaturgy 2. However, wandering around with mages isn't a bad idea either. Note, though, that mages can only find sites of the paths they have skills in, and some sites require higher levels in a path to find than others. For instance, a fire-4 mage will find all fire sites in a province, while a fire-1 will only find those that are easiest to find.

There are never more than 4 sites in any one province. 2 is probably typical. But to find all of them, of course, you'd need to search with all the different magic paths, which in
general is difficult.

Magic sites don't disappear. I'd suggest that was an interface confusion, e.g. you were clicking on a different province or something.

5. Starvation: Ways to avoid this include sticking near to your forts (they supply nearby armies) and sticking to nice terrain (i.e. farms rather than swamps). Of course neither of these may be practical. The best solution is to forge some Endless Bags of Wine (nature, construction 2 I think) to take with you.

6. Imprisoned pretender: Honestly up to you, all options are viable. You might want an awake Dominion 10 (for awe) Wyrm to go off conquering on turn 1, or you might want an imprisoned oracle to just give you good scales. Or an imprisoned water-9 dragon to give you a powerful bless. Or a dormant prince of death to emerge once you've forged him some items and go conquering. Or any of loads of other possibilities. Have a play and see what works, and what you like.

[Endoperez]

Magic path booster guide (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Number=575981) should help in finding ways to branch into new paths. It mostly governs multiplayers strategies, and getting as-high-as-possible levels in all paths isn't necessary even in MP, so don't worry about it too much if you're having fun.

[LDiCesare]

1. Niefelheim looks fine to me. But as llamabeast suggested, Marignon are very good to begin with.

2.1. You can increase thanks to items, empowerment or wishes, but this will not have any effect on your bless. So if you picked Nature 6, you'll never get +15% regen on your sacreds even if you empower to nature 8, 10 or whatever.
2.2. Empowerment again, but even more expensive. A cost of 80 points at setup means you took a chassis that's not suited to many magic paths (dragon?). Some chassis are better for having several paths, pretenders like the archmage or great enchantress cost only 10 per additional path for instance.
Considering that empowerment is 1) expensive and 2) only possible if you have gems of the good type (which probably require you to have at least one mage with that path to begin with), it's probably a bad idea to rely on it.

3. For ritual spells, those which are global enchantments last until the caster dies, the spell is dispelled, or someone casts another enchantment that replaces it.
Some spells (domes...) require you to spend 1 additional gem per turn the spell is to last.

[GrudgeBringer]

Thanks to everyone, you are very helpful to a noob that really was pretty lost.

Yes I used a Green Dragon as pretender (I just went by the semi-Stategy guide to nations in the manual).

So If I build a second Fortress/Citidal ect some distance away from my original it will draw supplies from areas surounding my new Fortress just like my original and I can stop my armies from starving if I am in the Fortress?

Thanks agian for EVERYTHING... I look forward to trying MP when I feel I need a whoopin cause I am finally able to beat up on the AI!!

[thejeff]

The fortress will boost supplies in it's own province and too a lesser extent in the provinces around it.
That's not a very effective solution though. You want those troops to be out conquering new lands, not holed up in a fort.

So, a couple of suggestions:
Can you use smaller armies? If you've just got 6N on your pretender that's not a really strong bless for Neifelheim, but it's still effective. A dozen or so Neifel giants, blessed and led by a Neifel Jarl should be able to take any indies and all but the largest AI armies. Keep them in cold provinces, it boosts their chill auras and those do much of the damage. Forge some equipment for the Jarl as well. Frostbrand, a shield, a reinvigoration item, Luck pendant if you can. Have him bless himself, cast any useful buffs and attack.

As suggested above: Bags of Wine. hire some cheap indy nature mages, have them site search a bit and then churn out the bags. Give one to each commander or too scouts with your armies.

While you're building that up, avoid waste and other low supply provinces. Plains, farms should have plenty of supply for most armies.

[Folket]

A dozen or so? Surly five niefel giants and a Jarl can take out the independents.

[thejeff]

I probably overestimated. I've never tried them with only a minimal bless.

[chrispedersen]

You can also have nature mages accompany your armies.
Each mage will give a supply bonus = Nat level * 5...

[GrudgeBringer]

I have a few other Noob things to ask, sorry if they seem so basic but I have read about everything I could and still am blind as a bat.

Let me say I have been playing every night and get a little farther and know just a little more before some AI comes and beats hell out of me.


I have been playing this as Late Man and playing it more or less like RomeTW just to get the mechanics down.

My questions (for now anyway)are:

1.Should I make my First Army Commander my Prophet or should I use a Mage of some sort.

I'm still not sure what a Prophet does for me (or for My Commander for that matter)I know it speads Dominion and I THINK I know that that means, I get more bucks, supplies, and he makes folks happier in the provinces.
BUT what does it do for the Commander?

2. I figured out (sorta) what being on the Hall of fame meeans and it be Gooood. (if there are any hidden things about it could someone let me know)

3. What good does a MOVABLE Pretender do (say a Ghost King)if I am afraid to get him killed? Wouldn't it be better to have a non movable Pretender and protect him?

4.I have been sending out units that can patrol area's to evey border province (I mean EACH province has its own) and am building a Temple in EVERY Province.

The Problem is I have no Idea if (and why) building a Temple in that many provinces is a waste of money and resourses (not to mention time away from building something else).

5.. When I have my Army Commander (he is a Prophet but NOT a mage)cast Bless, do I need to do it EVERY round of battle or once for the battle?

6.Do the low magic items I can forge protect only the Commander or do they apply to his troops also?

And along that same line, If I forge flying boots and it only affects the Commander can I leave my army in a province by itself and fly home for more men in say 1 turn?

7. Last (Sigh) question for know (tonight anyway so I can get my nightly WHOOPIN under way by the AI) When a different Faction declares war on me it seems an empty threat....BUT when I attack an AI he comes at me with EVERYtHING he's got.

So I ask this...Does the AI consider an attack without declaring war a big deal (and if so WHERE do I find the option of declaring war)? AND when I come upon a new faction If I leave it alone will it leave me alone (for a while anyway).

Sorry for being so long but I figure If iask 6 questions at once I won't be taking up space for others to ask more advanced questions.

Thanks in advance...this is a GREAT game but it has a learning curve as steep as AGEODS American Cilvil War and the forums arr the ONLY place to get good info!!!

[sector24]

Apologies if other people answered first!

1) A lot of people make their scout into their prophet. The prophet gets 3 holy magic OR +1 holy magic if he already has 3 or more. He also gets the "blessed" status meaning if your pretender has more than level 4 in any spell path he always gets the bless effect. The advantage of a scout prophet is that you can stealth preach in hostile lands, but you can still fight if you want to by just following around the commander. Also, you can use your commander to patrol on turn 1 and increase taxes for some extra cash early on.

2) There's a spell that lets you raise dead heroes that made it into the Hall of Fame. Also, the bonuses are semi-random, but in part based on what you were doing to get into the Hall of Fame. For instance, there's a bonus that gives you increased research, but it's very hard to research your way into the Hall of Fame!

3) Pretenders generally come in 3 useful flavors:
Rainbow mage for site searching or forging
Heavy bless pretender (level 9 magic in 1 or more paths)
SC Pretender for early expansion and general mayhem

An immobile pretender could be useful if you wanted to set them up to cast Wish late in the game, or as a researcher, etc. But generally you want your pretender to do things that your nation normally can't do, like diversify your magic paths or supplement your weak national troops.

4) You don't actually have to build structures everywhere. In fact, every temple you build is 400g that you haven't spent on troops. The quickie answer on why you build temples is to unlock the recruitment of priest commanders, and spread dominion, which in turn spreads the scales you chose at the beginning of the game.

5) Divine Bless affects everyone on the field for the duration of the battle. Bless affects a bunch of units for the duration of the battle.

6) Most items only affect the person wearing them. Exceptions like the Endless Bag of Wine will say so in their description

7) There is no diplomacy, you're always at war with everyone. However, you start the game with a "cease fire" against all the AI nations. If you attack them or they declare war on you via a message, you are at war for the rest of the game. The notable exception is if you both attack a 3rd party province at the same time; this does not break the cease fire.

[Endoperez]

Apologies if other people answered first!


You should also have apologised for people who answered late. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


1. Prophet can cast Sermon of Courage and Smite, which are useful in the early game, and prophet also gets boosted hp, str and some other stats in your own dominion, but penalties in enemy dominion. He's also always blessed, but that isn't important with LA Man. Starting commanders make good prophets if you want the spells.


2. Staying in the Hall of fame longer is even better, and if you have Death magic you can recall dead heroes still in Hall of Fame. Unique summons and pretenders don't get heroic abilities.

3. Sitesearching alone is worth a little risk. You don't have to move a mobile pretender into danger. Some pretenders are more about magic and rituals and support, others can fight or cast good battle-spells and are tough enough to stay alive.
You can make your priests recall dead pretender, but he loses 1 point from all of his magic paths.

4.You don't build up provinces, but search for any sites they might have. Those replace buildings you'd build in other games.
Build castles to protect important provinces, such as sites with lots of good sites and recruitable mages. Also near chokepoints and enemies, so that you can build your armies closer to the enemy front.
Recruit PD (provincial defence) instead of patrollers. 1 point everywhere is good, 10 or more in border provinces might catch spies, anything over 15 starts to be quite expensive but LA Man gets very good troops from it. See pg 120 of your manual and compare the units you get to other nations' PD.

5. Only sacred units can be blessed. Bless works until the end of battle. Prophets are always blessed.

6.Items affect only commander unless otherwise stated in the item's description.

7. About wars...

If you attack AI nation, you're in war. It's just like he sending a message about you two being in war, except that the AI can actually attack you. Wars can be declared from the other side of the world...
Wars will eventually end if nothing happens for a time, but AI doesn't tell you this. Another aggression will make it angry again.
If you kill an enemy pretender, AI attacks you more agressively and doesn't forgive as easily, or perhaps at all.
To get an AI leave you alone, don't appear weak. By PD in border provinces and recruit some independent archers to accompany it; they work very well with your PD.

edit: made my post more coherent.

[GrudgeBringer]

Thank you both!!!

I can now take my nightly whoopin but make it last longer (somehow that doesn't sound right).

Seriously, That was a big help and push in the right direction.

I have never really played magic (being the THUG that I am) games so I am a little behind everyone else.

this Forum is every bit as good as Ageod ACW for helping prople and I/we appreciate it!!!

[GrudgeBringer]

OK (sigh) my whoopin came a little quicker than normal so I will ask the one question that has been bugging me every since I started this game.

What spell can I use to check for magic sites without having to travel to each province.

IF I have a pretender (Ghost King) who is 5 death 4 earth 2 air and have him search for sites....shouldn't he find ANY of the above type sites if he travels there (i'm talking about sites that have a white sunburst and say they have stuff? (cause mine does not find anything....I think hes Drunk half the time anyway)

BTW Is that a good spread for my pretender in the 'magic' paths? Or should I have like a death 3 Earth 9 ect?

Thanks agian

[Master_Li]

Hope this helps


What spell can I use to check for magic sites without having to travel to each province.



Fire - Augury
Water - Voice of Aspu
Air - Auspex
Earth - Gnome Lore
Astral - Arcane Probing
Nature - Haruspex
Death - Dark Knowledge
Blood - Blood Bowl

Some are Thaumaturgy (Level 2), Evocation (Level 2), Conjuration (Level 3). If you order a mage to cast one of those spells with the monthly casting command (shift+m) he will do this every turn for another province.

There are 3 special Spells for Site Searching:
Voice of Tiamat - Detects all Elemntal Sites in a Water Province (Conj 4)
Acashic Records - Detects all Sites in a Province
Arcane Strands (hope I remmebered right) - The Caster detects Magic Sites in your dominion randomly, up to his paths

The sites have different Levels (0-4), If you use the command "Search for magic sites" your mage can only find sites up to his levels in magic paths. I.e. a Nature 3 mage can find only up to Nature 3 sites. If you searched a province, you can always check at the upper screen or the overview (F1), what level and paths already have been searched for - small colored icons with numbers in them. Maximum needed mage level is 4 to find everything of that path. The spells above all do a "9" search.



IF I have a pretender (Ghost King) who is 5 death 4 earth 2 air and have him search for sites....shouldn't he find ANY of the above type sites if he travels there (i'm talking about sites that have a white sunburst and say they have stuff? (cause mine does not find anything....I think hes Drunk half the time anyway)



First, did you instruct him to "Search for magic Sites"? You do have to do this every time you want him to search a province.
There is just a probability for magic sites. So it is possible to have no magic sites in a province. The Sun Symbol normally shows an increased chance, but still there is the possibility of no sites. Even, if there were 4 (the maximum) sites in that province, those can be sites from magic paths not available to you.


BTW Is that a good spread for my pretender in the 'magic' paths? Or should I have like a death 3 Earth 9 ect?





There are some strategies picking paths:

You pick your paths for bless effects. These are good for any sacred units. Those can be blessed by priests in battle. If your nation has strong (either in number or raw power) sacred units, then this is commonly used Strategy. Bless effects start at 4 in any path and a second effect comes with 9.
Bless strategies commonly use 2 or 3 blesses at 9. This is very expensive, because you get only those bless effects, your pretender starts with (no booster increases bless effects). So a pretender wit 3 paths all at 9 is cost intensive.

rainbow
you give your pretender as many paths at levels 1-4 as you can afford, so he can site search for a lot of sites. Level 2 is often enough, because most sites are 2 or lower.

caster
you have some casting strategy. You want some spells available to your pretender. Then you can pick your paths accordingly. Often used for special spells not avalable to your nation.

SC (Super Combatant)
A martial pretender. You pick the paths to be able to cast effective combat spells.
Or sometimes you don't pick any paths and invest in good scales (order, luck etc.)
An example for the later is the Great Wyrm. He is quite effective even without speels. If you choose dominion 9(10) your pretender gets Awe(+4), a very effective defensive power.

Any combination of the above.

[Tuidjy]

> Arcane Strands (hope I remmebered right) - The Caster detects Magic Sites in your
> dominion randomly, up to his paths

Strands of Arcane Power doesn't detect up to the full value of the caster's paths.
I think it's up to at most half his magic levels, and boosters don't seem to count.

[Agrajag]

Fire - Augury
Water - Voice of Aspu
Air - Auspex
Earth - Gnome Lore
Astral - Arcane Probing
Nature - Haruspex
Death - Dark Knowledge
Blood - Blood Bowl

Some are Enchantment (Level 2), Evocation (Level 2), Conjuration (Level 3). If you order a mage to cast one of those spells with the monthly casting command (shift+m) he will do this every turn for another province.


Fire,Air,Earth and Nature are in Thaumaturgy 2, Astral in Evocation 2, Death in Conjuration 2, Water in Conjuration 3, Blood in Blood 2.
There's nothing in Enchantment.

[Endoperez]

If you want to try just magic, Ghost King with few picks in paths your nation doesn't get is a good pick. As LA Man, Death, Fire, Water and Nature would fit well.

You could also choose a pretender that helps your national mages by forging path boosters. Page 282 of your manual lists various items that boost magical powers of a mage, and both non-unique Air boosters require Air 4. Your national mages won't get that good without help, so having Air 4 on your pretender would really help them.

[Master_Li]

Agrajag said:
There's nothing in Enchantment.



Yes, you're absolutely right, shame on me;) I edited it accordingly.

[Agrajag]

Hmm, just noticed I forgot to mention this, but another big disability for immobile pretenders is that they tend not to have any item slots (beyond 2-4 misc slots), so you can't give them quite a few of the path-boosting gear, which can really weaken their potential for magic.

[GrudgeBringer]

WOW....all I could ask for and more!!!

Thanks guys...

Last night I was motoring along and actually kickin some Ai booty for a change.

And then....I decided to let my best Champion (and Prophet) fight in the Death Match arena.

Now I did give him a winged boot, ring of Lighting Protection AND Ring of missle protection.... he had heroic (was 2nd in the hall of fame) and then, and then....he got his little Butt kicked (and of course killed) in 6th round.

But being the smart gamer I am I SAVED the game BEFORE the battle (pretty smart huh!!)

Except that after I reloaded and hit turn it rewrote my save and NOW I still have a dead Prophet!!

So now I know what the warning about saved games meant (and BTW I think its a GREAT rule).

What a GREAT game!!

Thanks agian everyone and maybe someday I will let you guys whoop up on me instead of the AI (if I EVER figure all this out)!!

[hunt11]

well if you like you could join some of the newb games, because in those games everybody is inexperienced

[GrudgeBringer]

Question:

why wouldn't I want Earth 4 on my set up so I can forge medium artifacts?

If I have say Earth 4 and Death 5 are my Magic users a LvL 4 and LvL 5 in those right off the bat?

If not how do I get them to level 2 or 3 or 4 ect?

Is it like Commanders when they would 'Level Up' because of exp?

I guess I am a little confused because It doesn't seem to say " Level 4 water Mage" ect.

The other thing that confuses me is that iF they are NOT LvL 4 Mages in Earth (example) then how can they forge Items at a Lvl 4 pace?

[Wick]

Various items require various paths at various levels.

Your pretender's paths do not effect the paths of your mages.

Mostly not at all, path booster items for most of the rest, and burning gems to empower them when you really need to.

Experience somewhat increases attack, defense, research, and more but does not effect path levels.

Are you confusing research levels with path levels? Your research unlocks spells which can them be cast by a mage with sufficient paths.

[Endoperez]

There are two kinds of limits for spells and items: research requirement, and path requirement. Level 0 items are trinkets, and mostly require level 1 or 2 in a single path. Items from Construction 2 are minor and often only require level 1 in a single path, but some take level 3 (Enormous Cauldron of Broth takes Nature 3), and Soul Contract is very expensive (Blood 6 Fire 1, so 65 slaves and 5 fire gems).

Similarly for your mages, once you have researched level 4 in Evocation, all mages know the spell "Blade Wind". If they have 3 levels in Earth magic, they can cast it. If they have Earth 1, they can't. But if you give them Earth Boots (for +1 to Earth) and make them cast Conjuration spell Summon Earthpower (for +1 to Earth), even mages who only have one innate level in Earth can cast Blade Wind and other E3 spells.

Earth isn't very important for good items, but Earth 3 gives access to Dwarven Hammers which make all further forging 25% cheaper. They are supposedly one of the most important items available, often traded for in multiplayer if your nation can't forge one, and Earth-wielding pretender is a good choice for any single-player games where you want to try your hand at forging items.

[MaxWilson]

GrudgeBringer said:
If not how do I get them to level 2 or 3 or 4 ect?

Is it like Commanders when they would 'Level Up' because of exp?

I guess I am a little confused because It doesn't seem to say " Level 4 water Mage" ect.

The other thing that confuses me is that iF they are NOT LvL 4 Mages in Earth (example) then how can they forge Items at a Lvl 4 pace?



In many cases, they can't, and you have to live without them or (in Multi-player games) trade with other nations. Dominions is pretty strong on "thematic" nations that do not all behave the same, and so you can't build other nations' troops and you often can't forge the same magic items or cast the same spells as other nations. (I love Master of Magic and Master of Orion, but it's true that as the game goes on, all races tend to converge to the same general playstyle--except for the ones who took super-advantages like Creative in MOO2. Dominions tries to avoid this and I think that's valid.) As you gain more experience and/or read guides on these forums, you'll gain more insight into this. "Aha! Helheim has recruitable Air mages with hand slots. That means I can count on giving Winged Boots to slow commanders and/or SCs."

That said, just because your nation doesn't have e.g. E5 mages doesn't necessarily mean that you can't forge E5 items. This comes in two flavors: either you don't have enough levels in a path (E4 instead of E5) or you don't have a path at all (no E mages). If you don't have enough levels, you can potentially empower some mages, but it's more common to try to get enough levels, gems, and Construction research to forge some path-boosting items. If you don't have the paths at all, you can typically either 1.) recruit independent mages (for low-level items, like S1 (S=Astral) w/ Sages if you don't have S on your national mages), although you can't always count on finding the right indies, 2.) put the paths on your pretender, or 3.) try to "boot-strap" into that path by summoning creatures with that path and having them forge path boosters to boost them high enough to summon something *better* in that path then they are, then moving the path-boosters to the new creature, and repeating. This takes a lot of gems, Construction research, and Conjuration (or sometimes Enchantment) research.

By the way, some people don't like having independent mages in the game, because letting you boost yourself out of a path you don't normally have (Helheim with Nature magic) can be "unthematic." You may or may not come to feel that way, too, eventually.

-Max

Edit: the hand slots on Helheims's air mages are important in the sense that it means they can hold Dwarven Hammers forged by Helheim's Earth mages. This means they can forge *cheap* Winged Boots. Sorry, should have been more specific.

[GrudgeBringer]

I am progressing (at a very slow pace) and once I learn one thing it makes 2 other questions.

1. I finally figured out the magic paths....However, I have forged the 'Dwarven Hammer', 'The Crystal Coin', and the Thistle Mace.

Usually in most games other Stategy Games I would put them (or at least a couple of them) on my BEST Commander.

But in this particular game I get the feeling these are used to further the Magic Paths rather than making a 'Super General'.

OK...I tried adding these items to my Commander (Prophet but non magical)and Nothing.

So I tried adding them to my other Commander who is a Amazon Mage and the crystal coin DID raise its Astral level by 1. But the Dwarven Hammer NOR the Thistle Mace added a magic level or (since it had neither Earth or Nature to begin with)gave it a magic path in those disiplines.

SOooooo, I added it to my best Druid (I am playing Marvini) and it would add a level in the astral or the nature BUT my mage was a E4 Druid and the dwarven Hammer Did NOT add another Earth level.

So I ask...what the h"&#* do I do with these items.

I have read about them, I understand what thier purpose is BUT I don't understand HOW to best use them I guess.

Any help would be appreciated...(and remember I am as dumb as a rock in this game).

Thanks!!

[Tuidjy]

The hammer does not increase the magic level. It lets you forge items with fewer
gems. The item that will increase your Earth magic level is the pair of boots that
you can forge with 10 earth gems at Construction level 4. With the hammer, it will
take you only 7 earth gems.

For an example of using the thistle mace - you have a druid with nature level one.
Give him the thistle mace, and now his magic level is two. He could cast, every
turn, the spell "Haruspex", and he would discover all nature sites (if any) in the
targeted province. Or in combat, instead of casting:
Eagle Eyes, Vine Arrow, Vine Arrow, Vine Arrow, Vine Arrow, etc..
he could be casting
Eagle Eyes, Storm of Thorns, Storm of Thorns, Storm of Thorns, Storm of Thorns, etc...
which not only has higher range, but also half a dozen extra projectiles.

Of course, the above example is very simple... but to get really good, the best way
is to jump in a MP game, and when your favorite army gets wiped out by something
that does not break a sweat, learn.

[kasnavada]

Hum I think the question you wanted an answer to is this one :
Booster only boost if you already have some magic in that path.

There are different types of magic bonus. The "nature bonus:1" and equivalent boost magic if you already have some path in it. If you give a 'thistle mace' to someone with no nature magic, he has no clue what to do with it, and will use it as a dumb club and try to clobber his ennemies with it.

The second type of magic bonus is : "contruction : 25" or something like it. It means it reduces the cost of casting construction spell on the worldwide map by 25%, rounding down.

The first one concerns a type of magic, the second one a school.

[Endoperez]

The Construction Bonus, Enchantment bonus etc etc only appear in sites. The bonus Dwarven hammer gives is Forge bonus, and it affects all items.

Hammers are most useful when you are forging expensive items like Staves of Elemental Mastery (25+25 gems, about 18+18 with hammer) or Rings of Sorcery (40 gems, 30 with hammer)

[GrudgeBringer]

OK, that makes sense and now that you mentioned it I DID read somewhere that eht D Hammer was used to cut the cost of forging (At least I have the Forging part down).

But what do I DO with the hammer?

Once I Forge it SOMEONE in my army must use it to make it work....right?

Now If I give say a lvl 4 Forge Constuction item that raises the N lvl 1 notch to a lvl 6 mage that has N magic...
will it work or will it only work if the mage has LOWER than the Forge Construction rating?

I can't wait to play MP and have no fear of taking a Whoopin (as I am already getting my A** kicked by the AI which in the forums everyone says is not tough...SIGH.

But i would like to understand the dual bless, summoning, and Blood slaves first as I have the sneaking suspicion that without understanding these things I will last about 4 minutes!!

Thanks guys, you HAVE helped push me in the right direction.

Like I said, I learn one thing and 2 more questions arise.

But I really have read everything I could on these forums, Read Baalz's (I think thats how its spelled) excellent strategy's for different Races, and have started over like 30 times after learning something every time I play.

I think my problem is I have always played Strategic war games that have weapon strength, windage, Terrain ect but I have very little exp with magic (other than neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale ect and then I still didn't play the Mage).

So understanding this may take me a little time and I appreciate the time and patiance that everyone is taking to help me!!

[thejeff]

You use a Hammer whenever you want to forge something. Give it to the mage doing the forging, put it back in the lab next turn (or use it to forge something else.)

If I'm understanding your question properly, you can give any path booster to any mage with at least one level in that path and it will work. (As long as you can give it too him, that is he has the proper slots open.) A Thistle Mace works just as well going from N9 to N10 as from N1 to N2.

[kasnavada]

I think my problem is I have always played Strategic war games that have weapon strength, windage, Terrain ect but I have very little exp with magic (other than neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale ect and then I still didn't play the Mage).



I think that your questions are very interesting because there is a lot that people on this forum take for granted. Like boosters working only with mages having at least one in the corresponding path.


But what do I DO with the hammer?

Once I Forge it SOMEONE in my army must use it to make it work....right?


Hammer reduces the cost of forging items (as said above). If you've read the different guides you know that labs enable mages to make magic items. Whenever you want to make a magic item, you just pick up the mage with the right bath to forge the item and select it from the list. The right way to use the hammer(s) is therefore to equip it to the mage(s) that makes the most expensive magic item(s) for this current turn. Otherwise it works just like a normal item creation.

Hum, and I have to says something else : when choosing the items the full cost is shown and not the reduced cost. A thristle mace is shown as costing 10 nature gem even if you have the hammer in hand. However, when you "validate" the item (with the hammer in hand), only 7 gems will be deducted from your vaults and not 10.

The same is true of the other 'school' magic site, the reduction in cost is not shown. But it does work.

[Tuidjy]

I think that you are getting bogged down in this forum's terminology (jargon).
Lets try to explain what a few sentances mean...

The dwarven hammer is Construction 4 item that requires Earth 3, and provides
a forge bonus of 25%.

This means it requires Construction 4 to be researched before it can be forged
by a mage with at least three levels in Earth magic. Incidentally, the forging
of this item will use up 15 earth gems, unless you have some forging bonuses.
The forge bonus of 25% means that when you forge other items with a mage that
is wielding the hammer, you will use 25% fewer gems. For example, if you are
forging a hammer with a hammer, you will use only 12 gems. If you have a druid,
with one level of Nature magic, and he is using the hammer to forge an item that
usually requires 5 nature gems, he will need only 3. Note that the druid has
no Earth magic skill, but can still use the hammer.

Ah, anyway... I am not doing too well at writing this post, keep getting
distracted. I am sure by now other people have answered better than I did.

Just a piece of advice - unless you are playing Mictlan, you do not have to
understand blood slaves. Blood magic is an advanced topic, and many really good
players will not touch it, but still do very well.

[GrudgeBringer]

hello....my usual 2 questions a night time!!

1. I have played a number of games in MP that had some form of a 'LUCK' attribute that you could take.

I have noticed that in some games (MOO2 for example)that while it looked like a waste of picks on the surface (and MOST everyone would never pick Luck as it was kinda costly..3 points out of 20.

However, When in the middle and late game you got Commanders wanting to be hired by you with AWESOME game breaking stats...you started to understand why that 'fool' you all where laughing at at the start picked it while he was dismanteling your Starships Fleets.

So I am wondering if the same applies to MP in D3? Are there any benificail reasons to take Luck or even take Misfortune -3?

I know in D3 playing as a Noob (and a dumb one at that)it IS better not to have a bunch of bad things happening to you while your trying to learn.

2. Pretenders
I understand its all about playing style, nation and Era picked ect.


But maybe I am not understanding WHEN and HOW to pick a Pretender for the nation I want to play.

I would usually (in most other strategy games I have played) pick the strongest, meanest, 1 creature wrecking ball I could and sic him on nations close by as soon as I could find them before they became too powerful.

It seems like in this game I am confused.
I keep finding myself taking a weak pretender (like Arch Mage) that I can take a LOT of good buffs )production, Growth ect)and a LOT of different magic paths so I can research everything (like 4 air, 3 earth, 2 fire, 1 astral, 1 Nature.

But I read that this is called a rainbow pretender and its not really looked on as a good choice especially in MP.

I guess I have 2 questions on this.

1. Does the magic you pick for your pretender effect your starting priests magic lvl (if you have 3E on pretender does your Priests start with 3 earth Astral 1 ect?
And if not why would I want to pick more than say Earth 6 and fire 3?

And finally are the Buffs (Growth, production ect)Worth taking over magic because with a LOT of pretender choices you can't take a lot of magic AND buffs.

What exactly is considered a good SC and how would you design one (just an example).

Thanks for any help

[Endoperez]

Luck affects events and appearance of national heroes. Events can be good or bad, ranging from few magical gems or few hundred extra gp to 3000 gp, magic item and gems. Bad events range from little extra unrest or destroyed temple to hordes of barbarians or knights attacking one of your provinces.
Some nations have VERY good heroes, and some nations have heroes that are so weak to be almost useless. Sometimes the same nation has both types. Heroes can appear if you have anything but Misfortune 3, but the chances of getting them are much better with Luck.

Because Order scale gives money and makes events less rare, taking Order and Luck together is usually avoided because they don't synergize well. Taking Turmoil and Misfortune together, on the other hand, is VERY bad for you nation and something you shouldn't really even consider. It's usually best to go all out if you take one; Luck 3 allows for some very good events, while Order 3 protects you from bad events so you can probably afford Misfortune 1. Order is better for money, but the gems you get from events tend to really pile up in longer games, and while gold events from Luck 3 aren't as reliable as Order 3 your starting position has more effect on your income than the difference between the two.

[GrudgeBringer]

Thank you, I think I am starting to understand the inner workings of the 'Scales' (which (DUH) I just figured out why they call them scales. I was envisioning 'scales' like on a serpent and it actually came to me in a dream that it was the 'Actual Scales that you choose your buffs with.

Sometime the terminology can throw folks I guess!!

Due to your very ih depth answer I an getting a handle on scales.

What I need to know is this:

Is LUCK as good in MP as it is in solo (some games it isn't like taking the Diplomacy option in solo but in MP has NO relevance (I understand that the race you choose might effect the overall selection), but for the most part is Luck help you starting position in BOTH Solo AND MP?

The one thing that I have been having a LOT of trouble with is Pretenders.

Is it 'Usually' Better to have a weak Rainbow Pretender with lots of scales and magic OR a less diversivied P and have him either devout his picks to either Battle or Magic?

Also does the choosing of say 5 or 6 Dominion help in a MP game ( I'm not really sure yet if it helps in a solo game.

Thanks1!! Getting closed with your help every day!!

[thejeff]

Luck works the same in SP and MP. It's usually considered one of the weaker scales. As your realm gets bigger, later in the game, the number of events (good or bad) is capped, so the advantages of luck doesn't scale with number of provinces the way order and growth can. Most MP players prefer Order 3 and Misfortune 1 or 2. It's a trade off.

5 or 6 dominion is about the minimum I'd use in MP. You can get away with less in SP. 9 or 10 for Awe, or if you're really trying to spread your dominion for some reason. A temperature dependent race (like Neifelheim or Abyssia), nasty dominion effects (like LA Ermor or R'yleh) Immortals?
You want to be fighting in your own dominion as much as you can, especially if you're using your pretender.

The important thing with a pretender is to figure out what you want from him. Rainbows can be useful for getting lots of site searching early on and later for forging and casting rituals. Most would only do this in MP if you have some form of very strong troops to expand with and hold off an initial rush. Elephants would be a good example.

You can also use a pretender for early expansion. If you haven't yet, try an awake Wyrm with no magic, good scales and dominion 9 or 10 for Awe. He should be able to take independents by himself from turn 2. Avoid attacking Knight provinces in low dominion. If he dies, call him back. He's got no magic to lose.
A Prince of Darkness with a few more levels of death can do the same thing, but is a little more fragile until he gets some equipment. Even cheap trinkets make a big difference. Since he has full slots, he can be equipped to stay a threat throughout the game.

I'll often try to design a pretender who can do a little of both. Expand my nation's magic diversity and be able to serve as an SC in the middle game. That depends a lot on what your nation has.

The other main use is to set up a pretender to cast particular late game spells. Wish, Master Enslave, that kind of thing.

[chrispedersen]

For some races, choosing a high dominion is critical.

For example, I prefer starting with Dominions of 7 or so when playing a sacred bless strategy. This ensures that I can produce enough sacred units per turn to form an army.

On some pretenders, for example with fear, I like to play Dom 9 or preferably 10, in order to get the awe effect.

And usually, if I am playing an awake rainbow, I will accept a very low dominion 1-2...and take precautions against dominion death...

[MaxWilson]

Keep in mind, Dexlyn, that if you try the awake Wyrm pretender, even though he has no magic to lose he can still pick up afflictions (although regeneration reduces the chance of afflictions, and coming back from the dead will sometimes heal some afflictions). Another option is to pick an Immortal pretender like Agartha's Risen Oracle, forge some Black Plate Steel Armor immediately, and go conquer some territories. Nearly as quick and fun, and he heals afflictions (Immortals only come back to life in friendly dominion, but they heal afflictions everywhere) and never picks up fatigue from melee--although he lacks regeneration.

-Max

[thejeff]

Be very careful taking 1-2 dominion in MP. You'll need to spend money on temples and priests to preach that you can avoid otherwise. Even so it can lead to an early dominion death if you start near high dominion nations and/or blood sacrificers.

Precautions can help, but you're still very vulnerable.

[Endoperez]

For multiplayer, if you can't take at least 15 provinces by the end of the first year/start of the second spring, take a combat pretender. You can get by with less in optimum circumstances, but if something goes wrong it's good to have a tough pretender.

Also, try combat pretenders until you can build one that can destroy independents, and then consider how you could counter it.

[Tuidjy]

Even Dominion 5 is a risk in MP games. I'm subbing in a game in which the nation
started with Dominion 5. When I took over, on turn 58, there was hostile
dominion in two of the provinces next to the capital, and half my provinces were
at enemy dominion 10. Dominion fights seem to be resolved at the starting
dominion, not the effective one. I.e. although they still generate temple checks,
temples do not count when dominion strengths fight, so the checks are very weak.

I have spent at least 200 astral pearls on Teleistic animates, and the previous
player had started making them even before I took over. The animates are by far
my most common commander, and what a waste that is, especially as they die in
droves whenever my castle is stormed (even though the assaults are always
repelled) Well, at least dominion death is no longer an immediate danger.

[GrudgeBringer]

WOW......

I am amazed at the depth of this game.

Thanks, I have some serious thinking, planning and solo playing to try!!

Thanks Agian (till the (sigh) next bunch of questions.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have been wondering...

If I take a Phonix (or any Hot or Cold pretender) that has better damage in Hot (or Cold) areas, Should I also make my scales go in that direction or will that hurt my Population ect?

It just seems to make sense to me that if you want to fight on HOME turf and your P gets better stats in a Hot Province that you would want ALL of your nation Hot....

Any Comments are welcome...

Thanks Folks

[Endoperez]

Someone did the maths, and it seems like the normal temperature variance from seasons (hot in summer, cold in winter) causes equal losses when you take neutral scales (too hot in summer, too cold in winter) or when you take one scale too much (too hot/cold in summer/winter, perfect in the other).

Taking one scale off won't hurt. In some cases, it may be a good idea to take even more, like Cold scales when you're underwater or when your troops benefit from cold scale. However, your pretender is only a single commander, and few extra points of attack and/or strength aren't enough to justify ruining your income.

Don't take extreme scales unless you have a good reason. Even if you have, don't go too far from your nation's preference. One or two picks off should be enough. As for the reasons, here are some:

Heat 3 or Cold 3 causes +2 encumberance to units and commanders that aren't resistant to that element. If your commanders/troops have even partial resistance, taking extreme temperature might help a bit.

Units that are caught on fire or numb stay so for longer in hot/cold areas, and IIRC Heat and Chill auras affect larger areas in favourable conditions. See pages 57 and 78 for the descriptions of the auras and burning/numb status.

Cold-blooded units get extra encumberance whenever they aren't in a hot province. Even neutral temperature increases their encumberance by 1. Because of this, especially Early Agartha benefits from taking some Heat.

Ice Armor is better in cold. This affects of all ages Caelum and Late Atlantis.

[GrudgeBringer]

First let me say Thank you to all that continuously abswer my questions with in depth answers.

I have just finished reading all the posts in this thread agian and it seems like a small curtain has been reaised in my understanding of this game.

I have a question and if the answer is a simple 'yes' then a LOT of things are/will start making sense.

It seems that the more I read and ask that the Pretender is just one cog in a BIG machine (although it is a BIG cog).

Scales, Troops, (Sacred or otherwise) Magic users ect, and pretender setup really have very little to do with each other.

That is other than the fact that the Pretender can in certain circumstances boost commanders and troops.

While the P is the central unit (whether a SC or a background 'Leader', it isn't the Only thing that determines what goes on in your nation.

I think us Noobs have been thinking that we need to make our pretenders all things to all situations that may arise in our nation, instead we need to make it specific to a plan and let the scales 'make the nation'.

I don't know if I have made it really clear what I am trying to get at but if you understand what I am trying to say then a any kind of a positive answer will help.

And of course any elaboration would just be GREAT.

Also, You might want to put a condensed answer in the 'Tips for Newbies" thread as I am sure they would pay more attention to you than a lowly 'Privite' that can hardly get past turn 35 without having to start over.

Thanks agian.

[Renojustin]

"Scales, Troops, (Sacred or otherwise) Magic users ect, and pretender setup really have very little to do with each other."

These all have everything to do with each other. That's what Dominions IS.

You cover your weaknesses. You use combinations that are synergistic. You take specific research or even a pretender to counter what might be coming at you, so you're not knocked out early.

Just pick a nation, find out what they're good at and what they can't do, and try to improve their pros and reduce their cons with your pretender and scales.

[Ninave]

GrudgeBringer said:
While the P is the central unit (whether a SC or a background 'Leader', it isn't the Only thing that determines what goes on in your nation.
I think us Noobs have been thinking that we need to make our pretenders all things to all situations that may arise in our nation, instead we need to make it specific to a plan and let the scales 'make the nation'.



Most people make this kind of plan. You just have to have a plan that works for your nation. "Master Enslave" is a bad plan if you don't have at least little astral for your nation to search for all the sites for gems and forge items. Also if your nation is bad at research, getting to that can be too slow (taking magic scales helps in this and even more if you are strong in magic and want to get things done quickly).

Pretender is something like the headfigure of your plan and (at least for me) the scales are the things that mold your nation with resourses, money and events.


GrudgeBringer said:
Scales, Troops, (Sacred or otherwise) Magic users ect, and pretender setup really have very little to do with each other.



As said before me, they have everything to do with each other. You need to get them in synergy, supporting and piling effects.

Let's take Pythium and hydra kekekekeke-zerg-rush -bless for example:
* hydras regenerate and can be blessed
* you take pretender with nature bless so your hydras get more regeneration to be nearly unkillable and berserk so they never rout
* hydras are poison resistant so you reseach to foul wapors
* this can be cast easily 'cause you can straight away recruit priest to this
* with the same research path your pretender can cast Gift of Health to boost all your troop in your dominion (high to give edge in conquering)
* at the same path there is also a percentage income increasing spell so you can maximize scales to money and get massive mage spamm later

Maybe this is a bad starting plan for a nation, concidering that with this I was overrun in a MP in four years from three sides. But it was an example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

That's for Late Pythium. Midde Pythium's hydras are different, not sacred, and they don't have national mages with Nature.

[Ninave]

Well I didn't specify the age and it was just an example. I haven't played so many multiplayer games that I would have good examples on everything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also, I didn't think that this thread was limited only to some specific age. Sorry if I missed/forgot that at some point...

Also, you have changed your signature. I liked the previous better.

[GrudgeBringer]

Sooooo....

If I am understanding this correctly, If I play ULM who has little Magic but GREAT troops then my Pretender should...

A. Take a lot of magic to make up for the shortcomings of ULM.
OR
B. Take more things that would make Battle spells to take advantage of thier strong troops or a SC to go with the good troops to make them REALLY tough!!

Am I starting to get it?

BTW how do I drop off troops in a province from my Commander so I can leave a defense to go with PD and head back to get more troops?

@. If I have winged boots on my commander can I drop off troops in a province and fLY back to say Home province to get more sacred troops?

Thanks, I feel like I am getting about half dangerous (probably more to myself than anyone else) in the understanding.

I actually am starting to get a plan of what I want to do....NOW, I just need to find the race to do it (LOL).

Thanks agian

[Endoperez]

Yes, you're starting to get the idea. However, if you're talking about MA Ulm, there are some things you have to remember.

1) You have no counter to Air. Air evocation deal armor-negating (AN) damage, which kills your troops. Your troops also have low magic resistance which makes them vulnerable to Thaumaturgy/Astral spells.

2) Your troops can't handle high-defense troops, like mounted units. They can't hit them, get fatigued, and after fatigue starts causing critical hits they start going down.

3) Your troops can't evade tramplers, and their armor only helps against small tramplers. Size 6 tramplers deal 20 points of armor-piercing (AP) damage.


Ulm got boosted in a recent patch because it has a hard time surviving once magic steps in, or some say even before that. It's still regarded as a weaker nation. For pretender design, Ulm really wants nice magic versatility, but it also benefits from someone size 6 to stop approaching elephants.


To drop troops, put them in the garrison, the topmost line in army view. It's the line where unassigned recruited units are.

[Agrajag]

And yes, a commander with flying shoes and no units (or with units that all fly) will be able to fly back.
But of course won't be able to fly to the front once you supply him with troops.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have been wondering about 'Scripting' troops in a battle.

At first I kind of chuckled at the lack of choices you had for your army and Commanders.

But as I looked at it more I realised that within the game rules there are some very subtle and important factors involved (and I am not chuckling now).

I have one question but any hints anyone would care to give would be very much appreciated.

The question I have is:

1.When you set your Infantry or Cav on Hold and attack....

Can you pick the NONE option instead of closest enemy ect and have them hold the line so to speak while your archers rip the heck out of you opponents?

I can see you putting your archers a couple of squares behind Infantry (depending on range of course) and having the enemy have to come to you (or at least try) thru a rain of arrows (Fire or otherwise) because YOUR infantry stays put.

Am I on track here or is this something that is beyound the capibility of the limited orders we have to work with?

Thanks!!!

[MaxWilson]

Hold And Attack (None) simply means they have no preferred target. They pick a random unit out of all the enemy units and attack its squad, which often means they'll attack the biggest squad. If you want to hold for more than 2 turns you have to put them as Guard Commander on a commander who holds for several turns (up to 5). This can be useful if you want more turns to buff your troops, and is a pretty decent use for otherwise-useless indy commanders. (Don't be surprised if the commander dies. He doesn't matter.)

-Max

[GrudgeBringer]

(SIGH) Ok...so much for that idea.

I have figured out the tactic of putting small groups of 5 or so in front to get archers and Inf to attack chaff units.

Is there any limit to the number of seperate units you can have in one army?

I also keep seeing references to army setup but I look at it and just don't see that many options.

I fancy myself as a fair tactition but without terrain, Wind, weather, ect there just doesn't seem to be much you can do except use Cav to attack rear areas and use skirmishers to draw fire from enemy units.

Am I REALLY making this too simple?

I would HAVE to think there is more to the battle sequence than meets the eye or this game would not have 3 editions working on a fourth.

So, if anyone would like to take pity on an old man and kind of point me in the right direction I would be much VERY thankful!!

[MaxWilson]

Army setup mostly refers to spell scripting. There are some things to know about distributing your mages around so arrow fire doesn't take them all out, putting hot/cold/poisonous creatures where they won't kill anyone else, positioning units to maximize your chances that a "Hold And Attack Rear" will actually get all the way to the rear, etc., etc., but Dominions tries to be more strategic than tactical and most of the tricks you can play center on researching/casting the right spells and equipping the right magic items on the right commanders and sending them to the right places to do things your opponent isn't expecting.

A couple of links that may or may not be useful:

Art of Placement (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=523202&Post606709)

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dominions_3:_The_Awakening/Tactical_Battles

-Max

Edit: fixed pathological link which was messing up page formatting.

[PvK]

I've been playing Dominions since the first edition, mostly against the AI which isn't a brilliant tactician, and I still get lots of fun out of micromanaging my army deployment and watching the battles. But that's my personal taste, mostly.

Anyway, yes there are many creative things you can do with non-magical army orders, though many players don't explore that to the degree I have, since the high-powered magics in the later stages of multi-player games can make such subtleties not so relevant.

The archer/blocker tactic you describe though is do-able, more or less. They won't stand in a block as you imagined, but the general effect you have in mind can be accomplished. Generally, use Hold & Attack Closest on the blocking forces in front of the archers, and use slower troops for them, and play with the position on the battlefield and observe what happens.

PvK

[GrudgeBringer]

Thanks...

I just looked at a save game because of the remark of "using slower units to block".

Unless I am overlooking something I don't see speed on any attributes.

Where would speed of unit be and would it maybe be called by something else?

[PvK]

Oh, and actually, you can increase the time a blocking force waits by giving them a commander all their own and scripting him to Hold, Hold, Hold, Hold, Hold, Attack... and his force to Guard Commander.

[PvK]

Tactical speed would be AP's (action points). Lower-right of the stats, under Map Move/APs, something like 2/12 for a human light infantryman, or maybe 1/7 for a heavy footman.

[GrudgeBringer]

I looked at that but it seemed that the troops ran BACK to the commander...But I didn't notice that I could script hold,hold,hold,hold,attack when guarding a commander.

So I would have to use a low priotity (indie) Commander and put him in the front with the 'guards'...right?

So what if an arrow gets lucky and kills the commander, what does the guard do then?

And what do the 2/12 or 1/7 mean when referring to movement speed?

Thanks a Million, this really helps me as I am not real magic inclined and will need all the help I can get if I decide to play MP!!

[PvK]

Yes, my suggestion is to take an ordinary commander (an independent foot commander would do - recommend one with a shield and armor (but whatever), and enough leadership for the blocking troops, and place him at the center point of your blocking squad, with the hold hold hold hold hold attack script on him (leaders have more flexibility with scripts than troop groups do), and put the guards on guard commander. If the leader dies, the troops will attack closest, which is fine.

In the move/APs statistic, the first number is the number of good-terrain provinces the unit can travel through per month on the strategic map. The second number is the number of action points for purposes of moving and attacking during combat, and is generally calculated as a base number (generally 10-14 for most humanoid soldiers) minus their encumbrance (generally from armor).

[GrudgeBringer]

It just struck me that if I want to play MP then what age do most MP games play.

It would do me no good for instance to play and become somewhat proficant at one race and find out that no one plays that particular age.

I understand that every age is played, but I am looking to find out if a certain age is played the most.

Thanks!!

[mathusalem]

just a quick question : is army of gold / lead stacks ?

[Endoperez]

Manual lists both as Ironskin, so the prot part doesn't stack. The units will get both +4 MR and 50% fire resistance.

[Amhazair]

Late age is played a bit less than the two other ages, but it's not like you'll have trouble finding games of any age. Newbie games of all kinds are starting up on a fairly regular basis. (And no-one will stop you from joining a non-newbie game either if you feel up to it. )

[GrudgeBringer]

I have a couple of questions about attacking armies.

I have watched my battles but am not really sure if I saw things clearly.

1. Does Attack (and then say archers, closest, ect) mean that there is no 2 turn wait like Hold and Attack.

2. does Fire and Flee mean the archers are useless for the rest of the battle?

3. If I put my Cavalry behind a another unit anf the other unit is on Hold and attack but the CAV is NOT on hold but rather just Attack rear units, will going thru the troops in front of them cause loss of cohesion or any damaging effects to either group?

Starting to get this part down...(Magic is going to be a struggle)but one thing at a time.

Thanks for helping!!

[Humakty]

1 yes, troops attack immediately

2 never tested it, but remenber your troops will be scatered among all neighbouring friendly provinces after the battle, if the battle lasts long enougth for them to leave the battlefield.

3 I highly recommend not to put a rapid troop behind a slow one : the rapid group will split in two, and pass along the flanks of the rapid group if there is any place.

[chrispedersen]

Fire and flee is fun with sacred archers with death blessing. Amusing raiding...

[GrudgeBringer]

in a Game played as EA VAN I see where for every 4 (or 5) Temples my Dominion Max can go up one.

But I don't seem to be able to build the temple Building itself.

By taking a enemy fortress or a province do I get a 'Temple' or are temples destroyed with conquest?

[Wick]

Click on a leader's command, select Construct Building -> Build Temple.

[Loren]

GrudgeBringer said:
in a Game played as EA VAN I see where for every 4 (or 5) Temples my Dominion Max can go up one.

But I don't seem to be able to build the temple Building itself.

By taking a enemy fortress or a province do I get a 'Temple' or are temples destroyed with conquest?



Temples can only be built by commanders with holy levels, just like labs can only be built by commanders with magic levels.

[GrudgeBringer]

Another question concerning PD and armies in general.

Does PD in a province get charged only one time when you add it or does it have 'upkeep'?

If I understand it correctly 20 PD is the same as 60 men on the ground, and if you supplement that with say 20 indie archers....sounds like a pretty solid defense agianst teleporting smaller armies and Mages. So why wouldn't I want a 20 PD in EVERY province IF it has no upkeep?

Also I suspect regular and Sacred troops DO have upkeep but I must be missing where that cost is shown.

Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks!!

[MaxWilson]

You only pay for it once, unless the enemy conquers the province. No upkeep. You have the right attitude towards PD, which is that you supplement it with "real" troops and use the PD as blockers/chaff. (Note that PD gets replenished even between battles, if multiple enemies attack in one turn.)

One down side to PD is that it's not mobile: 10 provinces with 20 PD each is probably the same price as a 200-man army that you could use to attack, or mass all in one place to defend. Also, you can't script PD to Hold And Attack. This particularly matters if you use army buffs like "Strength of Giants" or "Legions of Steel." Similarly, you can't use PD to guard your commands. Also, since PD is broken up into several smaller squads it often breaks more easily than one big squad would--although this depends on your nation (nations with low-morale PD suffer more). Having half your army take off running after taking four casualties (out of 40 men) is rubbish.

And of course, the final reason you might not want 20 PD in every province... it costs 210 gold. If you're fighting a human, that's an extra 210 gold you have to pay every time you (re-)take a province. If you're fighting against the computer, you could probably buy 1-11 PD or so in most provinces and leave the rest of the gold in the bank so that you can buy lots of PD in the provinces that need it. (For instance, if you go raiding in enemy territory, PD can make nice defensive reinforcements for when you get cornered.)

<font color="red">Edit: there's also a bit of psychological effect there. Buying too much PD can tempt you to stand your ground, in order to protect that 200-gold investment, when tactically you ought to retreat and buy time.</font>

Sorry if I'm lecturing. Yeah, no upkeep is a nice perk for PD. Upkeep is 1/15 of purchase value for regular troops, half that for sacreds. Most summonables have no upkeep, except for the ones which are also purchaseable with gold (not necessarily by you) and some like trolls (have goldcost = 30, so upkeep is 2 per turn). Total upkeep is of course listed in the upper-right-hand corner of the map. Note that same mounted recruitables with a #secondshape (Machakan sacred spider-thingies and LA Agarthan Cave Knights) have no upkeep cost after their rider gets killed.

-Max

[thejeff]

Because it's expensive to put in every province. 210 gold for 20pd. Plus the cost and upkeep of any archers you add.

And because if you put that in every province, your enemy will expect it and hit you with things that 20 PD won't even slow down. Horrors, flying/teleporting/sneaking thugs, larger armies and all that investment just vanishes.

PD can be useful. A little bit is necessary stop scout attacks. Decent amounts can back up real forces where you expect to be attacked. Huge amounts can be an unexpected surprise since they can be raised quickly, then buffed by mages.

In the early/middle game PD can be a good defense against the weak raiders most nations can field at that point or the early remote spells (Call of the Winds/Wild, maybe Hordes from Hell), but a cheaply equipped BaneLord can take any reasonable amount of PD, even with archers.

Upkeep is 1/15th the gold cost of the unit, 1/30th for sacreds. Some summons have upkeep, usually because they can also be bought by another nation/era or from a site. Trolls are the most common example.

[capnq]

llamabeast said: Magic sites don't disappear. I'd suggest that was an interface confusion, e.g. you were clicking on a different province or something.

If you lose control of a province, any magic sites you found there stop being displayed until you regain control.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have a couple of questions in my neverending (sigh) search for understanding, just to prepare myself to be Flayed when I play my first MP game...

Is there anyway you can combine your Priests/Mages/Magic Users Into your Regular Army so that you can move them all at the same time? It just seems SO tedious to move your Army and then 5 different Magic Units to a province and THEN have to set up and place each unit AGIAN.

If they (Magic Users) can't be grouped WITH the Army can they be grouped together as a 'Magic Division' (at least that would help).

What the H*#% is a HORROR and how do you kill it?

I found a site that I had had to enter to get my goodies and my best Searcher Mage was killed right off...

OK I'll fix that, so I sent my equipped and buffed our Phonix Pretender in to deal with the upstart and he jumped on my Phonix and killed him before I got off a shot.

So How do I get one of these cute little buggers and how do I dispose of my opponents little pest?

I have been toying around with the LUCK attribute because it gives me a lot of gems ect right off the bat and helps in the early game.

Since i have never made it to the mid or end game it doesn't seem to matter. Burt I have seen posts that says Luck (or Misfortune) for that matter caps out. Does anyone know what the cap limit is so I can determine if Order is a better play than LUCK3.

Last question... It seems as if (although I am NEVER the top contender that everone in SP wants a piece of my little kingdom around turn 15 to 20.

Is there a reason for that as I thought that it gamged up on the leader (or is that just usually in MP?

Thanks guys for any help...Getting closer every day!!!

[Zeldor]

GrudgeBringer:

Hold Ctrl and make a group of commanders that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Here you have example of newbie game gone wrong. Ended in a draw due to micromanagement hell etc.

Game name: Urapara
Password: haslo
[turn file attached]

[Endoperez]

I've used Ctrl to group my commanders, not Alt. Perhaps both work, or it's OS spesific?

To ungroup the commanders, hold control/alt again to remove them from the group.


If you are moving forces from many places into one province, press 'y' to give orders to units that will be there next turn. You can see and position all units except those that already are there. There is a minor bug that prevents you from repositioning troops that are already there, although you can give orders to them.


Sites with "enter for adventure" are dangerous. Try sending in expendable commanders like indy priests or something, see if they ever get lucky, and check out the opposition.

Luck scale: it's not known how good Luck is, exactly. I've tested it in several games with 9 provinces, total, and in these Luck nations generally got about as much gold as Order nations, in addition to the other events. The quality of the provinces had more effect on the nations' total amount of gold than what good scale they had taken.
The rumored break-away point is due to the fact that Order affects all of your provinces every turn, but Luck only gives few events. It was thought that the maximum was three events/turn, but I've seen four even in my 9-province test games. It's hard to test, because some spells cause bad events and you can't be sure the AI or an enemy player didn't cause some of the events you got in an actual game. Still, at least 4 and perhaps more events are possible per turn, but 6-7 are rare except in really big games and Luck will definitely produce less money than Order in those. On the other hand, those games last a long time and the gems you get from Luck would have added up quite nicely.

IMO, it depends from your nation. If you get lots of money early on to properly afford expansion and research and your first castle or two, Luck may be too unreliable. I often take Luck, even if Order might be better, because I like being lucky.



Short Guide to Horrors

Horrors come in several varieties. Lesser Horrors are ethereal and nasty. Horrors are ethereal and quite strong. Doom Horrors have fitting names like Eater of Gods or Maker of Ruins, and special abilities like Siege Bonus 400 and special weapons that negate "lucky" attribute and impose penalties on you. Dream Horrors were also added in a recent patch.

Astral spells can cause Horror marks, which attract horrors. Horror Marks can't be removed, but the horrors won't spontaneously attack you before you are marked multiple times, and even then they'll often be of the lesser variety. You can't see how strong your Horror Mark is, but there are several levels of it.

Blood has spells which can summon horrors, mostly in battles. Hellpower increases all the caster's magic paths by 2 (until the end of battle), but causes Horror Marking and summons horrors. Call Horror summons one, but the caster doesn't control it; instead, it attacks anything it pleases, probably something that has been Marked. Send Horror/Dream Horror can send the beasts to a remote province. They will try to kill whatever's there, but you won't get the province if they succeed.

The only simple way to get controlled Horrors is via Wish. You can wish for the unique Doom Horrors if you want to, but they have a good chance of attacking the summoner, and even if you get to control one it will disappear before or later.

[Zeldor]

Endo:

Heh, yes. Air conditioning is not working well enough here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hot!

[sector24]

Some SP tips:

After the independent expansion phase, each AI is going to look to go to war with at least 1 opponent in order to expand. If your borders are not well defended, it's going to be you. Entering a war makes you even more vulnerable, so another opponent will declare war on you, and another and another.

The AI will only declare war on you if it perceives the tangible gain of at least 1 province. It will never attack you if you have a reasonable defense on every border province.

So, the trick to surviving in SP is to put on a strong front long enough for the AIs to choose to attack each other rather than you. One way to do this is to put 21 PD on all your borders. However, this is an extremely poor use of gold, and does not work in multiplayer. However, for chokepoints, and provinces with 7+ neighbors, it might be worth it.

Another way to do this is to have a reasonably large army (40-100+ units) just walk along your border provinces. Large and imposing units seem to help, such as Hydras, Elephants, Troglodytes, etc. The goal is to look like a tough nut to crack, and eventually the AI will pick on a weaker neighbor.

Look at the army size graph. The nations with the smallest army are the most likely to be attacked. Sometimes having large numbers of ultra elite units hurts you here because you appear weak. If this is the case, build a ton of independent archers, woodsmen, crossbowmen, etc. just to boost your graph.

When you do get into a war, the easiest way to win is to force the AI to attack you on your terms (which it will). The best situation is a chokepoint, where you can pump the PD and put a large force to annihilate all attackers. That's rarely feasible, it's more likely that the enemy will raid you. Rather than chasing them around, your closest army should either go right for their castle (shutting down their production) or stand their ground in the most defensible location, while reinforcements from your castles move forward wiping out raiding parties.

You're going to lose a good chunk of cash from lost provinces, but a defensive approach is very powerful in single player. The reason being that the AI has a bigger army than you do, but once you destroy that army, they can't rebuild like you can. You simply have to outlast them, even if you lose a few provinces initially. When you kill enough raiders, what happens is the AI has almost nothing left other than what it can produce in the castle. Then you can take back all your provinces and start the offensive.

Hope this helps get you to the mid-game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[chrispedersen]

Why coudn't you play a one person game.... by eliminating all rendom players... and build and emprie.. and see how many luck events you get. With no other players.. they should all be random...

[Wick]

Because the only player left is the winner - game over.

[Endoperez]

chrispedersen said:
Why coudn't you play a one person game.... by eliminating all rendom players... and build and emprie.. and see how many luck events you get. With no other players.. they should all be random...



I did my tests like that. All the nations were humans, and I had multiple nations at the same time to test various scale choices at the same time. I just didn't bother to conquer 50 or so provinces with everyone while writing down all events and marking down how much gold I've gotten and how much gold I've spent. I can start the game with 9 provinces for everyone, and then fast-forward for turn 30 or 40 or something and check out how much money everyone has.

[moderation]

You could just build a few SCs and attack the AI. A well equipped Cyclops or Prince of Death usually eliminates the AI nicely since it doesn't know how to fight them. But I guess that's almost cheating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[chrispedersen]

I wasn't clear.

Human control (you) two nations. Start with 50 territories each or so.

Sice you won't be casting any spells... luck will be the sole cause of random events.

[MaxWilson]

It would take a while to accumulate 50 territories, which makes it kind of a tedious test to run. You may feel differently.

-Max

[capnq]

MaxWilson said: It would take a while to accumulate 50 territories

You can set how many territories each nation controls at the start of the game when you create the game.

[thejeff]

capnq said:

MaxWilson said: It would take a while to accumulate 50 territories

You can set how many territories each nation controls at the start of the game when you create the game.



But only up to 9, I believe

[Endoperez]

thejeff said:

But only up to 9, I believe



The maximum is indeed 9. That's why each nation only had 9 provinces in my test games.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have got most of the mechanics of the game down (I didn't say I had them aced, just understood!!)

However, there is one aspect that I just am not getting,

Either I am too dense, have a mental block, or am reading things wrong.

Its magic and things like Summoning...

I know what summoning is in the usual sense but I get the feeling that it is SO much more in this game.

I have read Baalz's Excellent Guide to Summoning but it seems it is directed to those that have a basic knowledge of the subject.

It talks about Masters and 4 slaves ect and the combinations that you need ect. I am sure that to someone that understands the terminology that it rocks....

But its Greek to me.

I have played nations with magic of all kinds to try and force myself to learn but I just keep getting more frustrated and playing MP seems a LONG way off if I am the only one trying to fight a ground war.

Is there ANY WHERE that explains the nuances of the magic game in all aspects that a dummy can understand?

Thanks as always...you guys are great when it comes to supporting new people!!

[sansanjuan]

GrudgeBringer said:
I have read Baalz's Excellent Guide to Summoning but it seems it is directed to those that have a basic knowledge of the subject.



I think you are referring to Baalz excellent guide to communions. If so I recommend setting up a hot seat SP game where you control both players. Choose a nation with astral mages and the other with blood mages. Experiment. Sometimes it is useful to save the savedgames directory pre-battle, play the battle, check results, copy savedgames backup over the current savedgames, try new spells, formations, replay battle, rinse, repeat. Try those nine astral mages casting solo and then with an 8:1 communion (leveraging those more powerfuls spells they would not normally be able to cast because of fatigue and/or level.

-SSJ

[thejeff]

I think you mean Communions, not summoning.

Communions are a way to boost a mage's power during a battle to cast more powerful spells and to spread out and reduce the fatigue.
Play around with it. Take a bunch of Astral mages, have one cast Communion Master and the rest Communion Slave, then have the Master cast big nasty spells.
With 2 slaves, the Master gets +1 to every path he has.
With 4, +2
with 8, +3, etc.

Fatigue for the Master's spells is divided up among the slaves and the master doesn't stop casting when they go unconscious, so he can quite easily kill them in a long battle, especially if there is more than one master. The more slaves you have the less likely they are to die, both because the fatigue is split more ways and because their paths are boosted as well, but only for the purpose of reducing fatigue from the master's spells.

There are all sorts of nuances, exploits and variations, but that's the basics.

[MaxWilson]

Grudgebringer,

It might help if you could give an example of how summoning confuses you. Do you understand ritual magic? (Have you read the manual's sections on magic and ritual vs. battlefield magic?) Summoning spells are just ritual magic spells that create troops as opposed to e.g. raining fire on enemy armies. Like all ritual magic spells, they cost gems instead of gold.

Communions (masters/slaves/etc.) are a totally different story, and I presume that's what you mean by Baalz's Guide To Summoning. They have nothing to do with summons, but apply to the Thaumaturgy (Astral) spells Communion Master and Communion Slave. Since the manual is pretty sketchy on what they do, Baalz's Guide To Communions tries to flesh that out, but it assumes you've already read the manual descriptions of those spells. That could be why it's so confusing--or it could be the fact that communions are a fairly confusing subject anyway.

-Max

[GrudgeBringer]

If I have 21 PD and 15 archers in a province is there any way to set up the archers so that they are behind the PD forces?

i looked at battle orders but didn't see how this was possible. Thanks

[MaxWilson]

The PD will always appear in the default, center position. Set your archers to be toward the back, and the PD will appear in front of them.

-Max

[thejeff]

You'd need a commander for them. An actual one, not the PD commander.

Then you can just position the squad in the back half of the field.

[GrudgeBringer]

I was reading the Magic Path Booster Guide and actually am starting to understand it.

One thing it keeps mentioning that I don't understand is it keeps mentioning you will have to 'Empower' something.

Is empower the same as Summon?

It seems like it is saying "in order to get another level in this Magic Path you have to Empower this ot that"

Now to me as a NOOB that makes no sense as Empower suggests I cast a spell on my own 'Mage' to make him a level higher.

It makes much more sense to 'Summon' a beast that has say E3 and then give him an article to make him E4.

Can someone clear this up for me please...

Thanks

[MaxWilson]

A mage commander has a list of possible commands. He can Move, or (if he's a priest) Preach, or Construct (Lab), or Pillage, etc. If he's at a lab he has extra commands including Alchemy, Cast Ritual Spell, and Empower. Empower permanently boosts his magic path but costs three or four times as much as building a path-boosting item.

Note: unlike a path-booster, you can Empower to give a mage access to a completely new path. This costs 50 gems. If you have lots of pearls (for example) but no Astral mages you may burn some of those pearls to Empower somebody to S1 or even S2, but after that point it's usually cheaper to have him forge himself booster items than Empower himself further.

-Max

[Loren]

MaxWilson said:
A mage commander has a list of possible commands. He can Move, or (if he's a priest) Preach, or Construct (Lab), or Pillage, etc. If he's at a lab he has extra commands including Alchemy, Cast Ritual Spell, and Empower. Empower permanently boosts his magic path but costs three or four times as much as building a path-boosting item.

Note: unlike a path-booster, you can Empower to give a mage access to a completely new path. This costs 50 gems. If you have lots of pearls (for example) but no Astral mages you may burn some of those pearls to Empower somebody to S1 or even S2, but after that point it's usually cheaper to have him forge himself booster items than Empower himself further.



Yeah. If you need to break into a path you don't have there are only two routes: indies and empowerment. I'm in a MP game now as a water nation. I've found indies once--water mages! To get into a path I have no access to the only route is empowerment.

[thejeff]

Or summons. There are a number of summons that open up other paths.

Spectres are probably the best. Lamia Queens also have randoms. Faerie Court opens Air, etc.

[GrudgeBringer]

That makes sense, I understand that now,,Guess I was on the right track just didn't get the whole gist of it.

NEXT QUESTION (lol as usual),

In an army you can have (for lack of a better word) 5 divisions (at least thats all I have been able to make in any army).

Now say I want 5 mages to fo with my army...

I have 1 large Infantry Division

1 cavalry Division

2 Archer Divisions

I mage division (5 Mages)

Now my question is this:

I see no way of spreading out my Mages if they are all in the same division. They are all lumped together as the Archers and infantry are (1 block)

There is also no way to put small skirmisher Units in front of the main army to draw fire if I have 5 full divisions.

(you can tell I play mostly ground warfare strategy games)

Am I correct in this assumption or am I missing something?

Thamks Guys, You really go out of your way to help!!

[thejeff]

I'm not sure what you mean. You can only have five squads assigned to a single commander, but you can send multiple commanders to the same fight and thus break your army into as many squads as you want. Each squad can be positioned separately.

And Mages are commanders, thus not part of any squad. All commanders can be positioned and given orders as needed.
Are you overlooking the positioning boxes for commanders?

[GrudgeBringer]

DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder I am getting my Butt kicked by the AI.

Even stuff I know ...I don't use or remember


Thanks, maybe I will start thinking things thru a little more now!!

[GrudgeBringer]

I am getting closer and closer to MP...

I have a silly question and have tried to find an answer but I think I am just mind blocked and not seeing whats in front of me.

I thinks I know what a 'Bless' is.

What I need to know is HOW do troops get blessed.

I know my pretender has 2 Blesses but he is asleep.

Is it a spell, does the creation of my pretender give it to everyone?

Sorry for all the dumb questions but sometimes I feel I have one thing down and the linguage just escapes me.

Thanks

[Endoperez]

It is a Holy spell, so your priests can cast it. If you haven't appointed a prophet yet, you can make one and he will become a priest. If your prophet has died, you have to wait six months before you can appoint another.

You can also recruit priests from provinces where they are available and which have a temple. Any province you have forts in, including your capital, has priests among the commanders, and priests are common among independents as well.

[thejeff]

Your priests (Anyone with Holy magic) can cast divine spells which include Bless at H1, and Divine Blessing at H3.

Cast one of those on sacred troops and they will be blessed. Any priest can cast bless, the effect is based on the pretender's magic.

[MaxWilson]

You can tell if a troop has been blessed because in his unit stat screen there's a candles icon for sacred troops. If he's blessed it will light up and you can click on it to see what the blessing is. "+300% afflictions, reinvigoration +3" or whatever.

-Max

[Zogger]

This is very newbie question but I didnt find a clear answer in the manual. If I hit enemy army with a spell like murdering winter/flames from the sky and it damages units but doesnt kill them and the I attack that army in the same turn. Do they have reduced hitpoints in the fight on that turn or have they healed after the spell?

[MaxWilson]

Yes, they still have reduced hitpoints. The manual has a turn sequence (~17 steps) somewhere in the middle. Unit healing takes place almost at the very end, after all battles have been resolved.

(Note that PD will still have full hitpoints because PD units don't exist until the battle happens.)

-Max

[GrudgeBringer]

Ok a couple of more questions (I am starting to understand like maybe 1/10th of everything...really)

Looking thru my posts I seem to have a theme that keeps rearing its ugly head.

I am not understanding the Pretender and what it can do, and because of that I am not understanding the more subtle magic because I am trying to play this game like Rome TW and win by a ground game.

So....

After much thought of how can a dummy (like me) ask the question that I needed answered the most in a way that others could understand and actually help me.....I broke down and asked my Girlfriend to compose the question (YES, part of the deal was that SHE get the credit...sigh).

Here goes..

1. I understand that in pretender creation the blesses he receives at that time are in effect immediately for sacred Units.

I don't think I really understand why Dom 10 is such a major factor if it is only an aura that surrounds HIM (pretender) and his ability to raise Dom where he goes as he can only be in one place at a time.

I have never actually seen the AWE effect and other than it being like a Super FEAR spell, or IF it is in effect for ALL its Commanders/Mages ect that are blessed from the start of the game and all the time in the game.

I guess I just don't understand all the hoopla...

It would seem to me that you could design a Pretender Killer type stack if only HE has those abilities.

When I am designing a pretender I ALWAYS seem to get hungup on the fact that MORE is better than QUICKER.

in other words, what has worked for me very well in other games is that I take and develop a STRONG central base and then conquer slowly and build a strong nation as I go.

You can't get 'behind' my lines because there are no lines....everything is very strong.

If I can make it to mid game then I can be a force (if I use the right diplomacy) because while I can be defeated I can wreck another nation while he is doing it to the point that HE is now a sitting duck.

That doesn't seem to be the case in this game from what i've read.

So, my pretenders have all been imprisoned so that I can get the BEST starting scales and most magic ect on my pretender.

I just can't seem to understand WHY that just isn't the way to do it...Best scales, good blesses, money/production/luck and a strong magic on my pretender when he awakens (on like turn 35 or something).

Could someone PLEASE take the time to explain why I am reading about an awake pretender when there are just NOT enough points to make a strong nation (in MY flawed estimation.

Maybe I am just not getting what this game is about so ANY suggestions on theory of the game is helpful as I REALLY enjoy this game I am just getting frustrated....

Thanks to ALL that have been so helpful!!

[Taqwus]

It depends on the game setup, including your neighbors.

If you're on a crowded, tiny map and your Niefelheim neighbors are sending N9E4-blessed Niefel giants in your direction immediately, you need something to kill them -- fast.

If you're on a tiny map where other sides are sacrificing scales for a rampaging pretender that will rapidly out-expand you, he'll have many more resources to crush you before your scales are likely to matter much.

If you're on a massive map with relatively few nations, and very strong independents, and it's late era (so fewer easily accessible monster sacred units running around), scales will matter more than in the earlier case.

[JimMorrison]

Well first, this game is all about different options, different strategies/tactics, and different abilities. So it's not "wrong" to have an imprisoned pretender, it just severely limits your own flexibility, and your understanding of the game, if you only play in the one fashion.

Now that we have that out of the way, just a note, blesses are not "automatic", there are sacred units, but only your prophet is constantly blessed, all other sacred units must be blessed during combat, and then it only lasts for the duration of that combat.

Dominion 10 isn't an end all be all trick. It works especially well for a pretender who already has Awe, as they stack, making it incredibly powerful in mitigating damage from most troops other than mindless units that have 30-50 morale. It does not work like fear, other than that the roll is taken against Morale. However, every unit MUST make an opposed roll of their Morale, vs your (Awe + 10) when they try to attack you. If they fail their roll, they fail to make an attack in that round. This is so valuable mostly in the early game, where a properly selected pretender can take 1 province every turn from the very start of the game, drastically increasing your expansion rate, giving you the economic base to crush people in the mid game and beyond.

This is a trade off, awake pretenders cost a LOT of design points (as points not gained by choosing dormant of imprisoned). But placing those points into scales, is for many nations much more of a mid game benefit, so if you don't have a strong early game growth plan, the player who has poor scales and an awake pretender will probably be so much larger than you, that they win the war 9/10 of the time against you, and probably with acceptable losses.

Then the third option, is to go for a bless strategy. Some nations make powerful use of blesses, some do not benefit from them much at all. You can sometimes do a single greater bless with a dormant pretender (and in a few cases it's possible with awake, but your scales will be AWFUL), but you will generally have to go imprisoned to do a dual bless. Often it works well to do a greater bless with a minor bless (usually the minor is nature for small regen, but not always), and in those cases you can typically just be dormant and still have -mediocre- scales.

In Dominions, if you try to fortify and shore up your position on a constant basis, your economy will bleed out, and you will grow far too slowly to be a threat to anyone later in the game. Perhaps they will avoid you because the reward for the effort is small, but you will never win that way, because someone far more aggressive than you will win much more quickly.


Typically, most games seem to be won through one or the other strong early game strategies - either they have an awake pretender who can make their empire grow twice as fast as you grow, or they imprison with a strong dual bless, and have incredibly powerful (and somewhat replenishable) sacred troops produce the same effect. This is why you hear so much about these things, because in MP, a "slow and steady" economic win through good scales and (nonstrategic) magic diversity, is not very common at all.


Hope that helps somewhat.

And remember, if you don't like that, there is no shame in just sticking with SP for the more laid back fun of the game, it's the route my roommate is taking, in fact.

[Wick]

Pretender design points can be spent for several purposes:
1) They can buy high dominion to recruit more sacred troops, spread dominion from temple checks faster, and with 9 or 10 have awe +0 or +2 on the pretender.
2) They can buy a SC in the early game that can grab independents and deter early rushes.
3) They can buy a mid/late SC which uses full equipment and spell buffs to destroy destroy armies. Sure, most SCs get killed eventually and each time you Call God his magic weakens but think of the destruction you can wreak first!
4) They can buy high magic to define a useful bless effect that priests can buff sacred units with.
5) They can buy high magic to cast powerful spells.
6) They can buy many paths of magic to add diversity to the national mages, research, and site search.
7) They can buy scales to produce more gold to buy mages, castles to recruit mages, troops, and temples.
8) They can buy scales that increase production to recruit more or better troops in the early game.
9) They can buy scales that improve random events.
10) They can buy scales that increase the research productivity of your mages.

These thing vary in importance with different nations and starting conditions so you are trying to find a balance that works for the game you are about to play. Try LA Ermor -- an awake pretender with at least D3 is a no-brainer and scales are mostly worthless.

[dirtywick]

GrudgeBringer said:

I don't think I really understand why Dom 10 is such a major factor if it is only an aura that surrounds HIM (pretender) and his ability to raise Dom where he goes as he can only be in one place at a time.



Your dominion does more than that. It can also be spread through having a priest unit preach, and through building temples. Dominion 10 is good because a high dominion is hard to remove through preaching or by building temples; you can actually spread your dominion into enemy lands. It's hardly necessary to start with it that high unless you're using a dominion reliant strategy, as building temples increases your max dominion. If you build enough temples you can get 10 dominion later.

Your continued survival in the game requires you to have some dominion somewhere. It doesn't matter how many provinces you control or how big your armies are, if your dominion is eroded through temples and preaching then you lose the game.

Of course, that's extremely difficult to do. Usually it happens if you have a strong dominion and you've conquored a lot of the enemy and their pretender and prophet are dead, then you can push your dominion over theirs and conquor the rest at your leisure. But there are some nations that excel at stealth preaching and lowering dominion and raising their own quickly.

When you look at the map, you'll see either white candles, black candles, or no candles. The white candles represent your dominion, the black an enemies, and no candles is no dominion. You can count the candles to figure out how much of your dominion is in a particular province, or how much of the enemies. Having your dominion in an enemy's lands also gives you a little information about the province, like what troops are there. Your dominion represents your scales. At full dominion you get full scales, at partial dominion you get partial scales.

The other effect dominion has is directly on your troops. I think fighting in friendly dominion gives a morale boost, and in enemy dominion a penalty. It also severely effects your pretender's and prophet's stats.

So a 10 dominion start isn't important unless you're trying to push your dominion onto your enemies. A moderate dominion is more reasonable.




I just can't seem to understand WHY that just isn't the way to do it...Best scales, good blesses, money/production/luck and a strong magic on my pretender when he awakens (on like turn 35 or something).

Could someone PLEASE take the time to explain why I am reading about an awake pretender when there are just NOT enough points to make a strong nation (in MY flawed estimation.




Well, the first thing to say here is your pretender is often your best unit period. Maybe if you took a wyrm with no magic or something that wouldn't be the case, but even then late game summons are all that will come close, if at all.

I play TW games too, so it's like having a 10 star general, except the power difference is even more vast. Like a queen in chess, except it can shoot fire and spit acid at the pawns.

Your pretender can do a lot of things; conquer provinces on it's own, cast the most powerful spells, forge the best equipment, it depends on what form you choose and what magic you give it.

So if you've got it imprisoned, you're going a pretty long time without your best unit. Giving it all that high magic isn't much use until it's in play.

The other thing is the best scales and high magic in certain paths are dependant on what you're researching and what nation you're playing. So you really need to evaluate that when designing your pretender, because it is your best unit and you want to play to it's strengths, and also play your scales to your nations strengths, and then find a middle ground.

For instance, Kailasa doesn't have many high resource troops, so taking production 3 just because it's a "good" scale is a waste of a lot of points, you simply won't use the resources, so take sloth instead. But the mages are expensive gold wise, so you want some order for gold. Order reduces the chances of random events, so you could tip your scale towards misfortune. That's one good scale and two bad scales, see what I'm saying?

Then you have a lot of points to both keep the pretender awake and get some magic on it, because Kailasa could really use a good bless and early expansion help.

Once you get to mid-game and see what worked and what didn't, what you need immediately, and refine your strategy and plan for mid-game and late game in pretender design once you've got a handle on how things work.

[capnq]

Wick said: Pretender design points can be spent for several purposes:
1) They can buy high dominion to recruit more sacred troops, spread dominion from temple checks faster, and with 9 or 10 have awe +0 or +2 on the pretender.

Actually, there's a tradeoff between strength and speed of spread. Higher dominion spreads slower because it takes longer to "fill" a province before it "spills over" to an adjacent province.

[thejeff]

Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

But don't take our word for it. Try it out. It's hard to get the effectiveness of SCs until you've played with them. Take an awake Dom10 Wyrm with no magic, put him in the back of the field scripted "hold,hold,hold,attack" and send him out solo on the first turn. You can still have good scales, but now you'll be expanding faster the gold comes pouring in faster, you'll have full resources in your capital sooner, etc, etc.

[Loren]

thejeff said:
Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

But don't take our word for it. Try it out. It's hard to get the effectiveness of SCs until you've played with them. Take an awake Dom10 Wyrm with no magic, put him in the back of the field scripted "hold,hold,hold,attack" and send him out solo on the first turn. You can still have good scales, but now you'll be expanding faster the gold comes pouring in faster, you'll have full resources in your capital sooner, etc, etc.



Why hold, hold, hold? What does that accomplish?

[Amhazair]

Loren said:

thejeff said:
Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.

But don't take our word for it. Try it out. It's hard to get the effectiveness of SCs until you've played with them. Take an awake Dom10 Wyrm with no magic, put him in the back of the field scripted "hold,hold,hold,attack" and send him out solo on the first turn. You can still have good scales, but now you'll be expanding faster the gold comes pouring in faster, you'll have full resources in your capital sooner, etc, etc.



Why hold, hold, hold? What does that accomplish?

Often it's not really crucial, but it means that if your (indy) opponent has troops of two different speeds (like knights and infantry) they will become strung out and fail to attack you at the same time. It might also mean that enemy archers are farther away from you when you get into melle, and thus have less chance to damage you.

Of course, this applies against independents (and PD). Human players tend to try and coördinate their armies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JimMorrison]

thejeff said:
Just a note about dominion 9-10 Awe on the pretender: It doesn't work best with a pretender who already has awe, though the stacking helps. It works best with a pretender who has Fear, since Fear reduces the morale of everyone around him. It really can be impressive.



According to the manual, your results are not due to the mechanics working as you state.

A Fear effect does not reduce the morale of nearby enemies. It forces a morale check each round, with a penalty equal to the Fear bonus, causing a rout if the check is failed.

Ergo it has no directly synergistic effect with Awe, it just happens that if you have a high enough fear effect to easily rout PD within the first few combat rounds, any awe at all will give you a good shot at surviving with minimal damage.


If the manual is totally full of it, then I will consent, but the description seems to very much differentiate it from other morale checks.

And anyway, in my experience, the potential of Awe+7 with Virtue, is an incredibly powerful tool. It gives you a strong effect even up to elite infantry with 15 morale. This essentially makes her nearly invincible against all normal troops, which is an advantage that continues to be leveragable through the entire game (though she's a poor raider against say R'lyeh, with their lobo guard PD).

[thejeff]

Haven't dug into that part of the manual in awhile, but check the morale displayed on units in the Fear area of effect. It definitely drops.

[Endoperez]

Morale definitely lowers defence. It is pretty powerful even without Awe, so it could well force morale checks in addition to that.

[Agrajag]

Endoperez said:
Morale definitely lowers defence.


Huh?

Anyway, the synergy between awe and fear is indeed because it routs PD, not because of morale issues. Even if we assume each 1 fear decreases morale of everyone around by 1 (which it definitely does not), then it's effect on awe is identical to 1 awe, since lowering enemy morale by 1 is equivalent to raising awe by 1.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, I just did some testing. Fear auras have absolutely -ZERO- effect on a unit's morale. Enemy morale gradually went down over the course of the fight, due to losses etc, however there was no direct correlation to the Fear effect whatsoever.

In fact, providence allowed me to take 40 militia against an Onyx Amazon + Nightmares province, and the militia actually held for 3 full rounds against the Nightmares, even with like 20 overlapping Fear effects against them, their morale only dropped from getting cut down like wheat.

Bear in mind, it's possible to gear Fear over 20+ with a D9/10 pretender and items, if they start with Fear. That would basically mean that anything not divine or mindless would pretty much auto route if it got within sight of you, and even 30 morale troops would have trouble attacking through your Awe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez just misspoke/mistyped. "Fear definitely lowers morale" is what he meant.

Horror Helmet/Shield of Gleaming Gold is effective against normal troops for basically the same reason. Awe +0 and Fear+0 is easier to get than Awe +4, and to a first approximation they do the same thing.

-Max

P.S. Hmmm, how much fear could you get? I think the PoD is Fear +5 or something normally, before counting Death magic. Give him D10 and he'll be Fear +15. With Horror Helmet, Aegis, and Stymphalian Wings he'll be somewhere north of Fear +30. Am I forgetting anything? Other than the obvious Horror Harmonica, but that's a Fear attack on everyone on the battlefield, which is totally separate and different.

If you're going to rout the enemy army make sure you cast Wind of Death first so they actually DIE too.

P.P.S. Oh yes, you could give him a Lantern Shield in his other hand. Fear +35 at least, unless some of those items are more powerful than I remember. I guess you could give him a Ring of Sorcery and a Ring of Wizardry to boost him to D12, so that's Fear +37. Can't think of anything else.

[MaxWilson]

Jim,

I'm not sure what was going on with your tests. Battle losses don't drop Morale, they affect the bonus that units get for being mostly intact (which doesn't show up on the screen). I don't know why you didn't see a correlation between Fear strength and the morale drop, but it's possible that you don't realize that Fear +X refers to the AREA of fear. The strength of the Fear effect is 1/5 of that, according to KO. Try testing Fear+50 vs. Fear+0 and you'll see it drop quickly, but if you tried Fear+0 vs. Fear+4 you wouldn't see any difference except that 9 squares would be affected instead of 5 (which you probably wouldn't notice).

Multiple overlapping fear effects are indeed fearsome. Frequently troops will rout even against enemies they could easily beat, if the enemies didn't have Fear. That's precisely why Onyx Amazons are so annoying, but it didn't show up in your test because the militia were ALSO getting cut down like wheat (and probably the ones who were within the Fear aura were mostly dead as well as Fear'ed, and thus irrelevant--although you said you did some a morale drop on some of them, and that was from Fear).

-Max

[JimMorrison]

This post was just silly, the next one is much better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[JimMorrison]

MaxWilson said:
Jim,

I'm not sure what was going on with your tests. Battle losses don't drop Morale, they affect the bonus that units get for being mostly intact (which doesn't show up on the screen). I don't know why you didn't see a correlation between Fear strength and the morale drop, but it's possible that you don't realize that Fear +X refers to the AREA of fear. The strength of the Fear effect is 1/5 of that, according to KO. Try testing Fear+50 vs. Fear+0 and you'll see it drop quickly, but if you tried Fear+0 vs. Fear+4 you wouldn't see any difference except that 9 squares would be affected instead of 5 (which you probably wouldn't notice).

Multiple overlapping fear effects are indeed fearsome. Frequently troops will rout even against enemies they could easily beat, if the enemies didn't have Fear. That's precisely why Onyx Amazons are so annoying, but it didn't show up in your test because the militia were ALSO getting cut down like wheat (and probably the ones who were within the Fear aura were dead as well as Fear'ed, and thus irrelevant).

-Max




Well with a D10 PoD, the turn after he attacks the enemy, they are still at full morale. The turn after that, some are 4 down, some are 6 down, some are 8 down, and some units were alread at -2 or -3 morale.

I can definately assure you that morale erodes over the course of a battle. Every round, more and more units are showing lower scores, which I must attribute to their losses/damage, and the routing of nearby squads.

Though you are entirely correct, I didn't read the entire description of fear (my bad), I put the manual back down after I had confirmed that it states that its purpose is to force a morale check. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

In my humble opinion, it would not dominate the game. The enemy commanders wouldn't route because they wouldn't be within your fear aura (AoE 37 is only a 3-4 square radius), so you'd have trouble with undead armies as well as other thugs[1] and mages. I actually think it would be only moderately effective as SCs go, but counting the number of Fear items was an interesting exercise.

-Max

[1] A flying + Gate Cleaver + Boots of Quickness anti-SC thug, for instance, would hit you with 60 HP of damage before you could blink or your Fear aura could take effect. If he had good morale (18-20) he could probably do it a couple more times before routing, too.

[MaxWilson]

JimMorrison said:
Well with a D10 PoD, the turn after he attacks the enemy, they are still at full morale. The turn after that, some are 4 down, some are 6 down, some are 8 down, and some units were alread at -2 or -3 morale.

I can definately assure you that morale erodes over the course of a battle. Every round, more and more units are showing lower scores, which I must attribute to their losses/damage, and the routing of nearby squads.



You should check a normal battle. IME, unless a unit with Fear is involved, the shattered remnants of the army that finally flee have the same Morale that they had at the beginning. When you smash a barbarian horde or a bunch of indies, they still say "Morale: 8" or "Morale: 10". I think a Fear aura is like Soul Vortex or a Chill aura, it kicks in at the beginning of your turn. Only, Fear auras aren't visible.

Turn 1a: Enemies do their thing.
Turn 1b: &lt;Fear&gt;, PoD flies to attack. The Fear doesn't affect the enemies because it comes before they're in range.
Turn 2a: Enemies do their thing.
Turn 2b: &lt;Fear&gt;, PoD attacks. Enemies are down lots of Morale because this time the Fear aura covers them.
Turn 3a: Enemies do their thing or rout.
Turn 3b: &lt;Fear&gt;, PoD attacks.

Etc.

-Max

P.S. If Fear really is like Soul Vortex, you should also note that Quickness makes Soul Vortex happen twice per combat round too.

[thejeff]

Standards seem to counter the cumulative Fear effect very well. They don't seem to have much effect normally, a slight morale boost (probably capped?), but against Fear that boost seems to be added every turn, bringing morale back up toward normal.

[llamabeast]

Standards add one point of morale to every unit in an X square area every turn. If that would result in the unit reaching morale more than 5 points higher than they started with, the standard doesn't work.

So yes, in a combat with a fear-causing creature, the standard would probably continue to give a morale point a round for the whole battle.