Mists of deception make my 8 Marble Oracle dead?

[Cipher]

Hi all. I am playing a MP game. Last turn there was a big fight when I (ma agartha) try to storm Pythium's capital. After a huge fight, my force manage to make Pythium's force route, at that time I still have a big army including 8 Marble Oracle (fully armored) many mages and agartha statues. see the screenshot here
http://lh6.ggpht.com/cipherxu/SDQ5_PiVu-I/AAAAAAAAAyQ/1tUu_4PtdMI/s144/vsPY3.JPG (http://picasaweb.google.com/cipherxu/Zaku/photo#5202847228184869858)

Then incredible things happened, this big army just disappeared step by step. I watched the battle slowly, noticed that in one turn, suddenly 3 MO disappear. All MO has more than 100HP, It's not likely the Phantasmal Warrior can kill it by 1 hit. I have no idea about this. Is this because Mists of Deception has the function that enemy could lost himself in the mist? or a big bug?

The starting force before battle can be found here

http://lh4.ggpht.com/cipherxu/SDQ2zviVu8I/AAAAAAAAAx8/FuRnwq4g0Xc/s144/vsPy1.JPG (http://picasaweb.google.com/cipherxu/Zaku/photo#5202843732081490882)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/cipherxu/SDQ2zviVu9I/AAAAAAAAAyE/9iMuNLkqptU/s144/vsPY2.JPG (http://picasaweb.google.com/cipherxu/Zaku/photo#5202843732081490898)

[Twan]

Mist of Deception is a bugged spell (and using it usually ends in long threads about bug exploitation).

Your oracles were probably auto-killed because the battle reached the turn limit (75). Mist of Deception bugged effect make battles never end before (except if you kill the caster before he leaves the battlefield).

[Zeldor]

Did he use other battlefield enchantment too? If yes it is enough to get him out of that MP game, switched to AI and turn rehosted. That is a known exploit that is comparable almost to hacking turn files. Thing that would get people banned from MP if we had bans here. Just using MoD that way may be enough to rehost that turn if your opponent did not know about that bug. That is really more than losing a Golem because a 50 turn limit.

[Twan]

Actually in defense no need to use another BE, Mist of Deception + retreating caster just allow the defender to win everytime (and kill any attacker still on the battlefield when turn limit is reached).

But if the caster remains 5 rounds or more on the battlefield, giving reasonable chances to kill him, usual MP rules (most hosts) consider this spell valid.

[llamabeast]

I haven't had a chance to look at the turn yet, but will work under the assumption that Cipher's opponent was simply innocently using MoD as it was intended, a powerful battlefield enchantment. Unfortunately, because of the bug whereby retreating casters don't have their enchantment's cancelled (and because Cipher managed to rout his opponent), the spell rather unfairly decimated Cipher's army.

I'm not sure what to do about this. Neither rehosting nor not rehosting seem entirely fair. I'm beginning to think this spell should just be banned outright, since it can cause this kind of problem even when used in good faith. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what I should do?

[Twan]

Don't know for this game, but if I was you my default games (especially newbie games, as they aren't supposed to know the bug / rules about this spell) would include a mod to remove or fix the spell (I made one making MoD an instant summon of an army of fog warriors coming from the sides + normal Mist as secondary effect - it may need some balancing but something like that -).

[Edi]

Disabling MoD via mod would be a good idea for MP games.

[llamabeast]

That sounds like a good idea for the future Twan. Would you mind sending me your mod if you still have a copy?

[Cipher]

Thanks all. Now I know it is a bug, I would request to re-host it, because the battle result will be very different without this bug, my remaining force will be able to survive and capture the enemy capital. And I think no one should use this magic in this game anymore, even you may not intend to use the bug, but if your caster root, it will became a bug.

[Twan]

llamabeast said:
That sounds like a good idea for the future Twan. Would you mind sending me your mod if you still have a copy?



The mod is there. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=596055&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[NTJedi]

Twan said:

llamabeast said:
That sounds like a good idea for the future Twan. Would you mind sending me your mod if you still have a copy?



The mod is there. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=596055&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)



Nice, but the current mod has #researchlevel and #pathlevel listed twice.

[Twan]

Erf I've forgoten to remove the researchlevel 0 used to test it. Fixed.

[chrispedersen]

Why don't we try to mod the spell, so it has a duration - perhaps 5 turns, and mod the spell level and cost appropriately?

I'm not really a bit hacker, but it looks interesting to try.

On this specific game, I think deliberately or accidently agartha got unfairly hosed. But there is a larger problem.
If innocently applied, pythium may have been expecting it to defend his castle.

I would rehost the turn, and prvent agartha from storming for 1-2 turns.

[MaxWilson]

IIRC there's no mod command to give battlefield enchantments a duration, so that's not really an option. Modding != hacking. You have to work within the constraints of the options JK provides.

-Max

[Xietor]

By chance is the issue of some battlefield enchantments remaining up after the casting mage retreats being addressed in the 3.16 patch?

[Edi]

Not listed on the progress page, so I would assume not.

[AlgaeNymph]

llamabeast said:
I haven't had a chance to look at the turn yet, but will work under the assumption that Cipher's opponent was simply innocently using MoD as it was intended, a powerful battlefield enchantment.

Yep. I haven't looked at the new turn yet either*, but I had no intention of retreating. Fog Warriors in case of an Earthquake, Master Enslave for the large army, kitted out angels with smashers for those Marble Oracles, and Arch Theurges ready to call down the lightning and reap the whirlwind.

So, are we going to redo the turn with a mod or not?
chrispedersen said:
I would rehost the turn, and prvent agartha from storming for 1-2 turns.

Oh, okay then.

*I saw the turn just now. I did a lot of damage even without the Mists... If it helps, though, you still wrecked my army, scattering my equipment Pantokrator knows where. You're also this close to getting my capital anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif, so vengeance will soon be yours! /threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif

[Cipher]

Yes, DryaUnda, you are well prepared for my storm and well played with 3 times fog warriors, smashers,etc. Shall we say, we re-host this turn and I wouldn't storm the castle next turn. What do you think.

[calmon]

If the devs can't fix this easily they should think about removing the entire spell in the next patch.

I can't remeber any other spell/bug which causes so much trouble and unnecessary insulting disscussions.

Sure a mod would do it too but it shouldn't the way such gamebreaking bugs/exploit are handled.
I want to discuss about using good and funny mods and not to use a bug fix mod every time i start a game.

[AlgaeNymph]

Cipher said:
Shall we say, we re-host this turn and I wouldn't storm the castle next turn. What do you think.

Sure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Twan]

MaxWilson said:
IIRC there's no mod command to give battlefield enchantments a duration, so that's not really an option. Modding != hacking. You have to work within the constraints of the options JK provides.

-Max



It's actually possible to recreate the spell with limited duration via mod commands ! I just figured it and I think I have the beginning of a solution for a definitive fix by mod.

I first tested #effect 5081 to make the battlefield enchantment last 5 rounds (adding x000 -with x < 10- to an effect make it a cloud with duration of x round), but if the spell is displayed with "5 round duration", it doesn't work for BE.

But, it's possible to create a cloud with limited duration summoning units each round, with the effect x001.

So I've created a spell making a summoning cloud on 5% of the battlefield, with a duration of 3 rounds, one ghost wolf appearing per round in each square, and it works. Creatures don't disappear after 3 rounds but the clouds disappear and stop to summon more then battle ends normally.

It's then possible to add mist as a secondary effect (using nextspell) , or spells summoning other creatures as nextspells.

The only problem is actually : as the spell is no longer a battlefield enchant mages can chain cast it (= really huge ghost wolves army if clouds cover half the battlefield).

Perhaps a workaround can be found using Mist (BE) as the primary effect of the spell, and the summoning clouds in nextspell, so the mages don't recast the spell.

[DonCorazon]

calmon said:
If the devs can't fix this easily they should think about removing the entire spell in the next patch.

I can't remeber any other spell/bug which causes so much trouble and unnecessary insulting disscussions.

Sure a mod would do it too but it shouldn't the way such gamebreaking bugs/exploit are handled.
I want to discuss about using good and funny mods and not to use a bug fix mod every time i start a game.



I agree - this spell and the ensuing arguments has led at least one person to quit the game. Not worth the hassle IMHO.

[Twan]

I now have a fix true to the spirit of the spell : it summons 3 kinds of phantom creatures, with reasonable number of effects per round (without the bug, MoD was really a weak spell), and has a limited duration of 9 rounds instead of the perpetual effect (file in mod forum).

[Aezeal]

No offence but to "keep true to the spirit of the spell" wouldn't it be best to just let it be the same (maybe weak but there are more weak spells) and just let it end after say 40 turns.. that gives 10 turns before the retreat etc

[Twan]

The maximum number of rounds for a spell duration is 9.

#effect mod command
x = battle spell
100x to 900x = "cloud" of spell x with one to nine rounds duration
1000x = ritual version of spell x

Then the number of effects of vanilla MoD is the number of rounds x mage level (with unlimited number of rounds, but usually opponent is routed at some point)

My number of effect for 9 rounds is 9 x ((3 x mage level) + 2) = 27 x mage level + 18.

So number of effects of my version is about the same as a 30 rounds long old MoD spell, it's just concentrated in a shorter duration.

A 30 or 40 rounds MoD, even with just one effect / round, would anyway be far more powerful because the bugged way this kind of spell works make its duration = minimum battle duration if the caster retreats (and in a 40 rounds long fight some spells like Wrathfull Skies or fatigue BE can be devastating).

I find 9 rounds a good medium (between making MoD an instant or keeping it as it was), allowing to use MoD to make battles longer but not too much, so even the combo with other BE can be allowed.

[Micah]

Thanks Twan, that sounds awesome.

[Zeldor]

9 turns seems to be completely enough for that. Battles either end quite fast [+ some turns to finish that fight] or are really dragged and turn limit comes.

[Edi]

I have suggested in the beta forum that a change like this be taken into consideration for the next patch, at least for the interim. We shall see what Johan and Kristoffer say to this. Having a MoD that lasts 9, 12 or 15 rounds or something like that should be effectively the same as the original intention with the bonus of not being exploitable.

[MaxWilson]

Well, Twan's mod at least may be exploitable in a different way, in that it still lasts for 9 rounds even if the casting mage dies. A defender could do Mists of Deception and Wrathful Skies and Flame Storm all on round 1, and the attacker can't stop it even if he does Rain of Stones x50 on his own round 1--no matter what, the attacker is going to take 9 (or 12 or 15) rounds of painful BEs.

(I may be misunderstanding Twan's mod--I haven't run it--but it believe it creates clouds on the battlefield, each of which produces warriors each round. As I understand it, these clouds will keep producing warriors even if everybody else is dead, so the battle won't end. It's a fine mod and less exploitable than the original, but there are still limitations.)

-Max

[Twan]

Yes the best system would be the spell ending when the mage leaves, like it was supposed to be (...and a good initiative system instead of defender always cast first).

On the other hand it's a level 8 spell, supposed to be powerful and increasing battle duration may be seen as a part of its interest (9 rounds of any BE + MoD is not really more powerful than other mass spells a defender can cast before the attacker plays - the attacker can use warriors of muspellheim or something to reduce the effects of the second spell, when he can really do nothing to counter instants like rain of stones or mass enslave).