New patch

[atul]

Since no-one has posted about it yet:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/News/pr_01.htm

Yay!

[Omnirizon]

yipee!

(your ad here)

[Lingchih]

It seems the new patch distribution has actually preceded the announcement of it. Hurrah!

Is the Hydra head fix included in this patch? It was not listed in the fixes. If not, there is a handy mod to fix it, which we are already using.

[chrispedersen]

New races, especially early age seem very very strong.
7 gem income, with 2 blood? Hi value with low resource cost...

On the plus side, they look look like a strong heat race...

[coobe]

the game crashes for me when i click on "select physical form"

[Wokeye]

WOOT etc.

Hope it doesnt break MP games... *crosses fingers*

[Endoperez]

coobe said:
the game crashes for me when i click on "select physical form"



What nation? It's probably one of the new ones, but which era?



New races, especially early age seem very very strong.
7 gem income, with 2 blood? Hi value with low resource cost...

On the plus side, they look look like a strong heat race...



Sorry, but check again. Their capital-only units, and one commander, need lots and LOTS of resources.
Also, check you capital's population every once in a while.

[lch]

coobe said:
the game crashes for me when i click on "select physical form"


You probably mean during pretender creation? No, not here, it works okay. Otherwise please give a better bug report. Maybe some newer files are missing in one of the patches?

[Zeldor]

Can we patch llamaserver games already?

[llamabeast]

Yep, the LlamaServer is patched!

[llamabeast]

Ooh, the new races are awesome. Really thematically cool and interesting.

[Humakty]

As anyone tested the windows patch ? It seems a little small. I'm at work so I can't do it myself. Maybe it is the reason of Coobe's crash.

[Zeldor]

Yes, it works from what I see. Playing Hinnom now. Really tough nation. Size 6 tramplers with decent morale and MR. Sacred capitol giants. Blood hunters. Thugs. S3 mages. F3 mages. E3 mages. National summons. Access to nature and death.

[Herode]

The windows patch workf fine on my computer at least.
I just had a look at Hinnom. Great work !
NB : there are 2 "son of the sun" in the pretenders list. Maybe one of them could be name otherwise (son of the stars for the astral mage one ?)
And as usual, Worthy Heroes gives you a horn blower not so thematic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Humakty]

Okay, only 8-9 hours before I can start to play... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Randvek]

I'm playing around with Ashdod right now. Very interesting mages. A pity most of their many, many national summons are out of reach of their recruitables.

[Zeldor]

Manifest Vitriol is really nice [16AP AoE1 range 13 magical attack with Corrosion effect] but WWF requirement is a bit harsh.

[mathusalem]

Is Manifest Vitriol a nationnal spell ?

Atlantis have a lot of WWF mages.

[Zeldor]

Nah, universal Alt6 summon.

[Azeral]

They only cost 2 water gems, though, which makes them pretty damned amazing.

[coobe]

when i try to create a pretender with one of the new nations, it crashes... im gonna reinstall all of my dom3 and then ill see

[Endoperez]

If anyone else has problem creating pretenders, please state AT LEAST your operating system.

[coobe]

Ubuntu 7.1

[Endoperez]

Thanks, coobe. Does Linux patch work for anyone?

[coobe]

i completely reinstalled the game and patched from 1.0 to the new patch. now it works fine

[fantasma]

I just installed it on gentoo and it runs just fine.
Try to remove the key file, sometimes it gets corrupted although it looks good.

[Calahan]

I'm having problems with the new 3.17 patch.

I can create a new game no problem, but as soon as the map screen appears, the program closes to desktop. Tried it several times with different eras and maps, but with the same result each time. Also have the same problem if I try to load up any current games.

Tried re-installing from the CD, and everything works fine until I apply the 3.17 patch, when I get the above problem again.

Have patched on this system succesfully from 3.04 upto and including 3.15, never once having a problem.

Current Specs

ADM Athlon 2500
512Mb Ram
ATi Radeon 9600 64Mb
Windows XP SP3

Any suggestions would be appreciated. My only guess is that upgrading the Windows XP Service Pack from 2 to 3, which I did a few weeks back, has buggered something up somwehere along the lines.

[Zeldor]

Isn't SP3 still beta? I know it causes huge problems in many many games. [but if it's official automatic update I probably have it too].

[Calahan]

I downloaded Windows XP SP3 via their auto update thing, so I assume it's the finished deal.

Really hope it's not an XP SP3 issue, as uninstalling / rolling back that will be an absolute nightmare :-(

I could just continue playing Dom 3.15, but I don't know if that would lock me out of all my MP games :-( :-( :-(

[llamabeast]

Running fine for me on Ubuntu 8.04.

[Baalz]

Running XP sp2, I had some trouble. Installed the patch, it crashed to desktop (no error dialog) every time I selected "create new game" & "create a pretender god". I was able to play existing games fine. I rebooted, no help. I thought maybe a mod might be causing a problem so I went to preferences->mod preferences, where it crashed again in the same fashion without showing me the screen. At this point however (I've not actually changed any preferences) everything seems to work fine. Whatever was causing the problem seems to have jiggled loose...can't reproduce the crash now though it happened probably a dozen times in a row consistently when I first installed the patch.

[QXel]

I am under WXP SP3 too.

I'll try the patch this evening (I'm in France, so check the time zone - for a ref., it is about 4:15 pm now for me).

I'll post a report at that moment.

QXel

[Edi]

Calahan, contact Shrapnel tech support.

As far as your computer specs, SP3 was according to some sources causing problems specifically with machines that had AMD processors and/or ATI graphics cards. See here. (http://msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/archive/2008/05/08/does-your-amd-based-computer-boot-after-installing-xp-sp3.aspx) If the problem does not solve itself with anything from there, Shrapnel tech support will work with you to see what they can do.

[QXel]

Hello Edi,

I just take a look at your link. It is unfortunate obviously, but usual with Microsoft patches ...

To give courage to Calahan, I have en AMD-based computer with an ATI video card, and I have no current indetified problems with the SP3.

As I say, I'll check the Dom patch this evening.

If it's seem to be the SP3, then I will return back to SP2 to test, but perhaps not today.

See you.

QXel

[Zeldor]

Ok, I have checked and I have SP2 on XP only. And I don't think it wanted to be downloaded by updated. So I would try to check that thing.

I think that SP3 is not compatible with even 70-90% games. I have seen threads in many forums urging people not to install it.

[Calahan]

Thanks for the link Edi.

Heard there were various issues around ivolving XP SP3, but since it hadn't given me any problems, I didn't look too deeply into any of them.

Will try and fiddle around with it this weekend to see if I can get 3.17 to work properly. If more people report problems with it, then the error should come to light. If it's just a problem with my computer, then I'll get onto customer support as you suggest.

[Calahan]

QXel - A check on your similar machine would be much appreciated this end :-)

Zeldor - I'm pretty sure XP3 came via Windows update, as that's the only way that I ever update Windows XP. I'm not the biggest computer games player in the world, but SP3 hasn't given me any problems with any other programs or games until now. But then my current specs don't allow me to play most modern, CPU hungry games, so maybe it's those that are causing the high problem rates with SP3 you quoted.

[QXel]

Zeldor,

everytime Microsoft release a SP, MANY people claim to not install it because they promess you a lot of problems !!!
Without having testing it or even having a MS OS !!!
Just because "M$" is "Bad & EVIL" ...
It is just a tradition.

Believe me, I'm working in a company which is a specialist in systems of information (system, network, programs & developpement) and I know what I'm saying.
Ours Engineers install SPs, and yes, after checking.

But I highly doubt that Microsoft release a patch which ruins 70-90% of the games !!!
First: never see that kind of thing (and it is since DOS 5.0 & Windows 3.11 - yes, I'm OLD ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and believe me, it was worst with W95 & 98 !!!)
Second: gamers & games editors are a BIG community and so a BIG source of money to MS, and MS don't want to angry them.

SP3 will have some problems, of course, results of the complexity of programmins a OS, but never that kind of.

QXel

P.S.: believe me when I say that I am NOT a pro-MS.

[QXel]

Calahan,

I also doubt that SP3 came like that on its own with Windows Update.

I check MS Update on a regular basis, and it asks me for the SP3. If I wouldn't authorized it and click on "Yes, I want to download & install the SP3", I will still be in SP2.

It is NOT considered as a critical update in MS Update.

QXel

[Edi]

In that light, it looks more and more like a tech support case for Shrapnel support to handle.

[Calahan]

QXel

I was definately asked if I wanted to install XP SP3, and I said yes. It didn't get automatically installed, if that's what I suggested in my previous posts. But I was notified of SP3's availability via the yellow shield tray-icon that pops up when a Windows update is available.

Anyway, regardless of how it got there, SP3 is definitely on my machine, and probably there to stay. No idea where my XP install disk is to do a fresh install (not had to do a complete re-install for about 3years) and have had a few past nightmares trying to rollback versions of Windows, so won't be doing that anytime soon.

Will still apreciate a test on your machine, to help isolate the problem. If it is a my system only problem, then I guess that'll be my queue to finally buy myself a new rig!

[QXel]

Calahan,

you'll get it in about few hours or so. I'm about to leave work, and I will test as soon as I arrive home (well, it's all about my girlfriend too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

QXel

[Omnirizon]

does Gath have the ability to send out hokey mail-evangelical paraphernalia to the other nations? in envelopes that beg the celestial powers to bless those that open them and containing _blessed_ paper prayer mats and crosses, not available in stores, that promise many blessings if they only fill out the enclosed "prayer needs" form and mail it back in?

[WraithLord]

llamabeast said:
Yep, the LlamaServer is patched!



So, does that mean that all games hosted by LlamaServer are effectively patched?

[QXel]

Sorry Calahan:
test have been made: it works perfectly on my computer.

So, make some tests, and if nothing works, follow Edi's advice and contatc Shrapnell support.

For your information, here is a light summary of my configuration :
ASRock 939 Dual-SATA2 motherboard with AMD Athlon 3800+ monocore socket 939
ATI Radeon 9600XT AGP video card
Windows XP Pro SP3

[Endoperez]

Omnirizon said:
does Gath have the ability to send out hokey mail-evangelical paraphernalia to the other nations? in envelopes that beg the celestial powers to bless those that open them and containing _blessed_ paper prayer mats and crosses, not available in stores, that promise many blessings if they only fill out the enclosed "prayer needs" form and mail it back in?



No, but they have the availability to send out sacred thugs to conquer the other nations, in the form of capital-only commanders that beg the celestial powers to bless them and wield _blessed_ magic swords and armor, not available in stores, that promise many kills if they only fill for the "sacrificial needs" and send the slaves back to the capital. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Calahan]

Thanks for doing that QXel, and letting me know about the result.

If I get no joy sorting it out this weekend, then I'll get onto customer support next week.

Looks like I'll have to pull out of my MP games though :-( since they all appear to be turning over to Dom 3.17 only. Harsh but fair I guess, nature shows us that stragglers will always get left behind.

[llamabeast]

Wraithlord: Yes.

[chrispedersen]

I don't know if it affects Dominions, but I do computertech for a living. I've been having enormous difficulty with SP3.

VERY slow to apply, unstable in implimentation. I am holding off doing this on systems unless required to solve an existing issue.

[Omnirizon]

Endoperez said:

Omnirizon said:
does Gath have the ability to send out hokey mail-evangelical paraphernalia to the other nations? in envelopes that beg the celestial powers to bless those that open them and containing _blessed_ paper prayer mats and crosses, not available in stores, that promise many blessings if they only fill out the enclosed "prayer needs" form and mail it back in?



No, but they have the availability to send out sacred thugs to conquer the other nations, in the form of capital-only commanders that beg the celestial powers to bless them and wield _blessed_ magic swords and armor, not available in stores, that promise many kills if they only fill for the "sacrificial needs" and send the slaves back to the capital. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



"Our Gath soldiers are out there fighting for our _freedom_; and, you know, they're facing a hard time. There's a lot of heathens out there, people that hate our God, that hate our freedom. What our soldiers need is your support, and the best way to support them is with your very own virgins. So don't hesitate, send in your sacrificial virgins today. Operators and dungeon masters standing by to handle and enslave your virgins. Don't hesitate! Do it today!"

[hunt11]

or in the case of Hinnom just send as much food as possible too them and watch them go on a rampage

[lch]

QXel said:
But I highly doubt that Microsoft release a patch which ruins 70-90% of the games !!!


I wouldn't accuse M$ of _intentionally_ breaking things during their release cycles, although there usually is a long list of things that don't work anymore when they release something new. There is a lot of software for them, too, though.

I'd rather accuse M$ of bogging down their code trying to keep things from failing too much. I read this hilarious blog entry from a tech guy working at M$ a while ago where he described two cases requiring them to come up with workarounds to keep software running on Windows from crashing, which seems what they're doing for a job, more or less. If I remember right, the gist of it was that the devs at a specific unnamed big company (my guess is Borland) came up with an unorthodox workaround to get a window instance or something like that, like poking around the stack for that. A probable reason given in the comments was that this might have to do with having to work with closed source themselves. So the M$ guys had to debug the other's software, find out WHY it crashed, then understand WHAT they were trying to do, then include a workaround in Windows so that the program would continue to work instead of crashing. And then ***** about it online. Ahh, what a wonderful world.

[lch]

Follow-up on this, I found the article again. As I thought, I came across it on Raymond Chen's MSN blog "The Old New Thing". But since the search on that blog doesn't work at all (??) I wanted to write him an email about it and while googling for THAT I found the original thread "How Microsoft Lost the API War" (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html) on Joel on Software that links to "When programs grovel into undocumented structures..." (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/23/45481.aspx) on Chen's blog. Another link goes to "What about BOZOSLIVEHERE and TABTHETEXTOUTFORWIMPS?" (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/10/15/55296.aspx) there, which is also entertaining to read.

On behalf of games breaking upon Windows Updates, he writes about that in an older article named "Why not just block the apps that rely on undocumented behavior?" (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/24/45779.aspx), which is referenced on the Wikipedia article about him, too.

[SelfishGene]

I really like the Hinnom mythology. It's a cross between the Biblical antagonists of the Israelites, Vampire: The Masquerade's Antedilluvian 3rd generation fathers, and Warhammer 40k's Horus Heresy.

[thejeff]

I do like the mythology. The only nit I'd pick with it is the reference to "Celestial Powers". Seems to me "The Pantokrator" would fit better with the rest of dominions mythology. Nor does "Powers" go well with the Israelite background.

[Loren]

Can someone explain the Merkavah?

222 astral pearls for something inferior to a Seraph. You can get the Searph for 100 astral (wish) + 20 nature (GOR).


I also wonder if something happened to the AI. I'm trying out the Gath and things seem strange. I had just about surrounded Agartha's 3 provinces when they went to war--I had at least 20 at that time! In the other direction I found Panagea's two provinces, although I didn't get to smash him while he was that size because I was busy dealing with Agartha.

I finally dominion-killed R'yleh in year 12. His farthest expansion at that point was 11 provinces from home, a point he had attained years before--there are still neutrals out there that I am now collecting with R'yleh out of the way.

The map is Glory of the Gods. Nobody else has completed their research even though the world is approximately divided in thirds right now. Admittedly I am pressing my dominion over a good swath of their empire and I've got Wrath of God & Purgatory up but their research rate hasn't dipped since I cast them, they are just going slow.

[MaxWilson]

Hey, I just noticed that Gath's Benjamite slinger has precision 12 and ambidexterity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Cool.

"And the children of Benjamin were numbered... Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/judg/20/15-16#15

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Loren,

It's 222 astral pearls for something that may (or may not) be inferior to a seraph, PLUS 4 super-awesome mini-thugs in their own right. The 4 Ophanim are definitely worth the price--in my test runs I had the Chayot just stand there watching while the Ophanim rolled over hundreds of chaff units everything in sight without taking a single wound as far as I could tell. You have noted that the Chayot has four forms and can survive a Soul Slay? That's not to say that somebody might not Wish for a Chayot directly, but I must say I'd rather have both the Chayot and his bodyguard. Call Merkavah is incredible.

-Max

[Omnirizon]

Damn MaxW!!

that's some impressive research and imagination from KO & JK to include something like that, and a good eye by yourself to catch it.

I'm trying to picture KO/JK reading their bibles while in preparation for making this new nation.

[MaxWilson]

Omnirizon,

Thanks! I can't claim much credit, though, because I've always thought the Benjamites were pretty cool. They slaughtered most of the other Israelites in the war, and it took the combined armies of everyone to fight them off. (Then the others killed off all of the Benjamines except for six hundred men.)

I agree, I'm also impressed. I'm sure KO and JK are always this thorough and I just don't usually catch it because I don't know anything about Japanese/Nordic/Aztec/etc. history.

-Max

[Kristoffer O]

I've probably done more research this time than before. I begun work on it before the 3.15 was released and I didn't want units to appear in sprites and stats before the nation was finished, so I went for descriptions first this time.

Not making graphics and only making descriptions made me read more than usual. Also I'm quite fond of Middle/Near eastern ancient myth and history.

I've used the bible, the Zohar, book of enoch, some modern writhings on Ugaritic religion and the rephaim texts, and of course an osprey book (ancient armies of the middle east) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Since I'm quite fond of the nations I've been afraid that they would be too strong. I hope the drawbacks are enough to make them not overpowered. Since I'm not very used to design thugs/SC, and the nations are based on few mighty men I'm not sure how to properly balance them. There is no real precedent. Niefel giants are more powerful with their cold aura, but the Fomorians are probably inferior.

[Kristoffer O]

SelfishGene said:
I really like the Hinnom mythology. It's a cross between the Biblical antagonists of the Israelites, Vampire: The Masquerade's Antedilluvian 3rd generation fathers, and Warhammer 40k's Horus Heresy.



I'm not familiar with the Horus Mythology. The antediluvians draw heavily from biblical myth. I don't think I have actively used the masquerade as an inspirational source. I have played it and liked the vampire setting, but most of what's in there comes from the biblical/near eastern tradition. Monstrous giants that devour everything including their own offspring until killed by a great deluge, is not an invention of the masquerade.

Edit: come to think about it, the degeneration theme might be influenced by vampire, but the giants do shrink when they go from mythical time to historical time. Goliath is less mighty then the Nephilim.

[chrispedersen]

Yes, its sad. Gath's best unit is a slinger = ).
(tongue in cheek, but its almost true).

[Loren]

MaxWilson said:
Loren,

It's 222 astral pearls for something that may (or may not) be inferior to a seraph, PLUS 4 super-awesome mini-thugs in their own right. The 4 Ophanim are definitely worth the price--in my test runs I had the Chayot just stand there watching while the Ophanim rolled over hundreds of chaff units everything in sight without taking a single wound as far as I could tell. You have noted that the Chayot has four forms and can survive a Soul Slay? That's not to say that somebody might not Wish for a Chayot directly, but I must say I'd rather have both the Chayot and his bodyguard. Call Merkavah is incredible.

-Max



Oh, that's where those came from! I thought they were from another summoning. I hadn't noticed them when they showed up as I wasn't expecting any non-commanders.

Ok, I'll retract my objection.

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
Edit: come to think about it, the degeneration theme might be influenced by vampire, but the giants do shrink when they go from mythical time to historical time. Goliath is less mighty then the Nephilim.



I don't know an easy way to view heroes. I wonder if Ashdod or Gath has Nimrod, the mighty "hunter" (i.e. killer), as a national hero.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
Since I'm quite fond of the nations I've been afraid that they would be too strong. I hope the drawbacks are enough to make them not overpowered. Since I'm not very used to design thugs/SC, and the nations are based on few mighty men I'm not sure how to properly balance them. There is no real precedent. Niefel giants are more powerful with their cold aura, but the Fomorians are probably inferior.



So far, my impression is that Ashdod is tremendous *fun* because they have so many options, kind of like Lanka. I'm not thinking at this point that they'll be unbalanced. As you say, Niefelheim is better at thugging/SCing because Niefel Jarls have the cold aura and better equipment out of the box, and also Jotun Jarls and Skratti are recruitable everywhere. They have fun battlemages and good, solid troops, but supply is a problem (nice to have a nation where gluttony actually matters because it's not combined with Need Not Eat). The summons provide a great endgame strategy to shoot for, but that just means the endgame will be more thematic instead of generic Seraphs and Tartarians. In terms of thugs and SCs I think the main advantage over Niefelheim is that Adons are not afraid of heat (or cold), but they need a chaff-killer.

-Max

[SelfishGene]

Note that everything i know about Vampire: The Masquerade and Warhammer, i learned from the game, or Wikipedia, respectively http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

It was to the flavor text of the Angels of Civilization to which i was referring the Warhammer Horus Heresy stuff, the way the Prime Angel has a close second, and then corrupts the rest of them - and end up being banished out of the normal plane of existence. The fluff text is pretty interesting as a story, the way you wrote it, because it's also a revealing point in the fictional origins that was unanticipated. The story of the Avvim and the creation of the Nephilim, not out of love or lust, but out of a desire to commit sin, is what's particularly interesting.

Yea, it was the theme of degeneration, but also of "diablerie", that reminded me of the Vampire series. The Son of the Fallen pretender is described as hunting down and devouring all his kin. The "mythology" of the Vampire games is that the 3rd generation of Vampires after Cain (the Antediluvians) will eventually awaken, hunt down, and devour all their degenerate offspring.

You all did a great job of realizing these Biblical figures, though. I imagine these will remain the most realized forms of these obscure Biblical giants for some time. Hinnom feels the most classically "evil" of all of the myriad nations created so far, and they're pretty cool to play. Thanks for making them!

[Sombre]

I don't think Hinnom really feel evil at all. Most of their nation is made up of Avvim who are basically 'high men'. The classic superior-in-every-way super humans. They do have rather corrupt rephaim lording it over them.

They have some similarities with Arga Dis. Blood giants ruling over a proud and gifted race.