Lords of Civilization

[Zeldor]

Screenies of them, if you have no time to summon them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

National Hinnom blood summon, lvl9, 177 blood slaves per one. Good thing for people bored with wishing for Seraph too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Arakiel
Fear +5, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2, Fortune Teller 20
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4434/arakielrc2.jpg

Kokabel
Fear +5, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2, Fortune Teller 20


http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5602/kokabeliu9.jpg

Semyaza
Fear +5, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2, Healer 100

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5818/semyazaxk1.jpg

Ezekiel
Fear +5, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2, Fortune Teller 20

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4420/ezekieloz6.jpg

Shamshiel
Fear +5, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2, Fortune Teller 20

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4291/shamshielgr8.jpg

Azazel
Fear +10, SR&FR&PR 100%, Stealthy +20!!, BV +2

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1575/azzazeldy1.jpg

[mathusalem]

Azazael learn how to make and use cosmetics ? lol !


the description talk about seduction ability but It dont see the seduction icon, so, seductor or not ?

[Zeldor]

They have "Corrupt enemy commander" order available.

I had funny test now. My seduction failed so normal assassination battle occured. Semyaza charmed indy commander and after that battle that commander attacked that province.

[Azeral]

You should take a look at MA's Chayot and Ophanim.

Ophanim are size 5 tramplers with flying and map move 5, two misc slots only, Awe +5, immune shock/fire/poison, eth, 9 AP fire shield, lifeless, 21 base PROT, 14 base ATT/DEF, 20 base STR, Flame Strike attack. Sadly, lifelessness precludes regeneration, but they're sacred and priest 3, so they can bless themselves and still can get luck. Completely unequipped, mine's soloing everything in sight, now up to four XP stars and heroic agility for 20 ATT/DEF. Somewhere around 56ish base HP, too, can't quite tell the exact number because it's got a never-healing wound at the moment (the only affliction it has after countless battles) and 46 HP.

Chayot are utterly ridiculous. Almost unspeakably so. The first form is HP 55, ATT 15, DEF 14, PREC 15, STR 18, MR 17, PROT 9, 55 HP, flying and 6 map move, Awe +6, 100 FR/SR/PR, 10 AP fire shield. Astral 4, Priest 4. FULL SLOTS. No armor by default, fist is default weapon.

But that's not all.

Chayot also shift between forms when they're harmed (hit or killed, I can't say which). They can change between them at will outside of combat. Eagle-faced form changes Astral 4 to Air 4, HP 66, PREC 20, PROT 11, that's all that's different. Lion-faced form is Fire 4, HP 77, PREC 14, ATT 20, STR 20, PROT 13. Ox-faced form is Earth 4, HP 88, PREC 13, ATT 15, DEF 12, STR 21, PROT 19. Other than that, as far as I can see, they're the same. Full slots, hypothetical access to 4 in four different paths and Priest 4 in each form, non-lifeless so they can be given regen, utterly ridiculous movement and flying so they can plop themselves anywhere a la Vastness, and if all four forms have to be killed then they are basically unfathomably powerful.

The Ophanim are 59 pearls, Chayot are 222 and hopefully unwishable.

[Zeldor]

Just checked, you can wish for Chayots. Tetramorph, cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Azeral]

Well, they're...Conjuration 9, Astral 7, Fire 3 or 4, and cost 222 astral pearls, so they need to become unwishable immediately. Why the hell would anyone bother casting them normally? I mean, sure, you get the other conjuration stuff along the way, but the other path gives you alteration stuff along the way and the other various powers of Wish.

This has absolutely swayed me toward powerful nationals becoming unwishable. This is a fairly clear cut case.

[Zeldor]

And it seems that Chayot change form is bugged. They retreat of first form loses 75% HP. From what you say they should change into another when getting killed [they surely do not change when they lose some HP].

[ano]

I think that Chayots should be unwishable as they are too expensive, but other nationals shouldn't. It just makes a nation way too powerful in the endgame if it has summons like Grigori which nobody else has access to.
So if Seraph is made unwishable, the races that have such endgame summons will have a terrific advantage which I don't think is correct. Somebody said recently (IIRC, it was thejeff) that late game should be balanced and every nation should have equal or nearly equal late-game abilities. Yes, it is boring, yes, the strategies are similar, but it is balancing and balance is a VERY important part of this game as well as any other one.

[Azeral]

Also, I semi-rescind my notion of the case being absolutely clear-cut, because it appears that summoning a Chayot automatically comes with 4 non-commander Ophanim. At 59 gems a piece and able to solo ridiculous numbers of things each, the loss of two misc slots hurts a little but...uh...flying and map move 5, I'm pretty much just throwing them under the flying/6 Chayot and going wild. If nature blessing bypasses lifelessness, I think I have a new favorite strategy.

Edit: OH GOD WHAT. One of my Ophanim has the Awesome Presence heroic ability and now has Awe +10. Combat basically consists of entire armies refusing to hit him as he tramples through, and anyone who does bypass that has to deal with ethereality, 14 DEF, and then a metric ton of protection. And, for doing this, they get fire shielded.

[AlgaeNymph]

Something I've noticed while playing around with the Grigori in debug mode was that Azazel still likes to play around with the mortals, i.e. he'll occasionally sire a nephilim.

While I'm here, let's compare what we have with my predictions (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=598816&Forum=f 187,f194,f195&Words=azazel&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=589571&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&dateran ge=1&newerval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post598816):

• Azazel (death, maybe earth and blood)
• Kokabiel/Baraqel (astral, maybe death)
• Araqiel (earth, maybe astral and nature)
• Chazaqiel (air, maybe water)
• Shamsiel (fire, maybe astral)
• Samyaza (because even though Armaros/Penemue has a more distinctive niche, Samyaza is too big of a name to pass up).

[Dedas]

I think everything should be wishable for, although it should come with some risks attached too it. For example, if you wish for "too much" (like great beings) the being might not like it and turn against you or you will attract horrors or whatnot.

[Endoperez]

Dedas said:
I think everything should be wishable for, although it should come with some risks attached too it. For example, if you wish for "too much" (like great beings) the being might not like it and turn against you or you will attract horrors or whatnot.



I don't like risks in Wishes, because paying 100 gems for nothing is just crushing. Except for Doom Horrors, but that's because they're supposed to be unique.
Instead, I'd like to have variation. As I said before, having several different angels under one common keyword and Wish for any of them producing one, but not necessarily the one you wanted. It'd be like wishing for Doom Horrors without the attacks and eventual disappearance. You might get a Seraph, or a Chayot or an Ophanim or an Angel of Fury (or something that's a bit weaker but still SC-quality, I don't remember Fury's stats). That'd be enough to make angels different from other beings, and I like the idea of would-be gods paying for the service of human and non-human angels.

I really wish these threads didn't keep popping up, because I feel a bit silly writing essentially this same post again and again. I feel like an ad campaign, "I want my Wish for angels".

[Dedas]

Fair enough. But what about this? The first time you wish it is risk free, the second it becomes a little more risky and so on. The reason: let's say that pestering the gods/forces with your wishes all the time pisses them off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

An addition to the above could be that if you wait a couple of months you are granted a risk free wish again.

[Aezeal]

I think wishing for stuff worth more that 100 gems should be out.. or there should be a major wish (250 gems) which allows all summons and a minor for 100 wich doensn't allow to wish for the most expensive ones.

or if you wish for > 100 pearls worth the creature will always be hostile?

[mathusalem]

I like the Idea of generic with "angel", and put more gems in the Wish for better chance to have a Seraph or a Chayot

[Aezeal]

ow I agree with endo too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

yay endo

[Taqwus]

Oh, very very funky (fallen) angels.

Hm. "The First Sword"? "Dawn Armor"? Any interesting properties?

[sum1lost]

Dawn armor is pretty much very nice armor (I think prot 18, -1 def and 2 encumbrance or something. It is nice, anyways.)

Some of the first-age commanders get it, as well as dawn swords (available to sacreds, too) which are pretty nice magical weapons.

I have no idea what the first sword is.

[Edi]

The First Sword is Azazel's weapon. It's rather brutal.

[Kristoffer O]

Chayot is about the same as a seraph, but only one path at a time. THey don't have the blinding ability IIRC. Their last shape has 88 HP IIRC, and that should be the max they can take (but will survive several soul slays).

[Endoperez]

The First Sword

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/610572-temp.jpg

[Zeldor]

Kristoffer O:

Should they rout if one form loses 75% HP? Because well, as SC they are pretty useless that way, no way to make use of multiple forms.

[Kristoffer O]

They are supposed to be accompanied by 4 Ophanim you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Except if you give them some other units to accompany them. Like the four Ophanim that are summoned in the Tetramorph.

EDIT: Illwinter-ninja'ed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[sector24]

I hate to be a negative nancy, but the word "taught" is misspelled in the Release Lords of Civilization spell description.

[WraithLord]

Dedas said:
Fair enough. But what about this? The first time you wish it is risk free, the second it becomes a little more risky and so on. The reason: let's say that pestering the gods/forces with your wishes all the time pisses them off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

An addition to the above could be that if you wait a couple of months you are granted a risk free wish again.



I 2nd Dedas on this. I think this is an elegant compromise between outright banning of some wishes and the all is legitimate for wish. No reason why this can't be coupled with the variation suggestion

[Micah]

Were the summon screenies taken in a magic 2-3 dominion? I noticed the sub-par 17 MR on em and was wondering if that was base.

[Zeldor]

Magic 3, I should have mentioned that, sorry.

[Chris_Byler]

The Grigori, summoned normally, are *more* expensive than demon lords, with the same research and casting requirements... but at least you don't have to worry about having them poached off you.

Except by wishes.

Maybe wishing for unique creatures should be banned (or produce only an imitation, which may be an imperfect copy in some way and doesn't take away the genuine article from whoever is employing it), and you can still wish for pretender chassis and other non-uniques?

But I have to admit I haven't been in any MP games long enough for wish to come into play, so maybe it's not really a big deal whether it eliminates national barriers and allows summoning chayots cheaper than their regular cost etc.

[Meglobob]

Those Grigori summons are, except for the first one, unwishable for by any other nation because you after wish for the name in the top centre and they are all called Grigori. So you should get which ever is listed first.

I am correct in this, arn't I or am I dreaming again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Do all 3 nations have access to the lords of civilization or just the Hinnom? I have only had time to play the Hinnom so far.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... don't you get random one? And random from free ones?

[Meglobob]

Zeldor said:
Hmm... don't you get random one? And random from free ones?



AFAIK, no to both. If you wish for Erinye, you always get the first one, never the other two.

Also, should the one you wish for be in play already, I believe it will still appear (with any equipment given to it) and be hostile.

I am not 100% sure on all this, as its rare to do all this and dom3 is a HUGE game, but I think thats how it all works.

[Endoperez]

Meglobob said:
Those Grigori summons are, except for the first one, unwishable for by any other nation because you after wish for the name in the top centre and they are all called Grigori. So you should get which ever is listed first.

I am correct in this, arn't I or am I dreaming again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



The facts are correct, but there's a small problem in the practicality of the idea.

[ryo_akashi]

You cannot wish for the Grigori due to a nice move from KO.
People trying to do so will be pleasantly surprise

Check out unit ID #1... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

ryo_akashi said:
You cannot wish for the Grigori due to a nice move from KO.
People trying to do so will be pleasantly surprise

Check out unit ID #1... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Ha Ha, just had a look, sly fox that K.O. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[hunt11]

how do you check unit ID's?

[Aezeal]

plz tell us more?
is there an always hostile doom horror called grigori there?

[Edi]

Shift+i when viewing the unit gives you monster number. If you don't have a unit you want to look at, you mod it into a recruitment list by monster number as a commander to see all of its abilities.

[Edi]

Aezeal said:
plz tell us more?
is there an always hostile doom horror called grigori there?


Better. But I don't want to spoil it for you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

hunt11 said:
how do you check unit ID's?



I think you're asking how to view unit #1.

Quick way: during a battle, type Shift + "U". It will ask you "what monster?" and you type in a name or unit number. It will ask you how many, and then it will plop that many monsters of the type you ask into the battle replay (as non-commanders, so no magic paths).

The other way would be to play around with map files and mods, for instance to add unit #1 as a recuitable commander for some nation.

-Max

[hunt11]

i love that idea, i would laugh really hard if one of my opponents wished for that in MP

[Aezeal]

10 greg crashed my comp when I was just about to finish ulms manticore pretender :S

[Aezeal]

I do think it's funny he misspelled my name.. I'm not so vain I'll personally ask for a change in the bug thread .. but still strange

it's A-E-Z-E-A-L

kind of a mess to spell it AZAZEL, not like I haven't posted enough.. he must have seen in a few times, and this is my thanks for teaching him to use cosmetics (really KO wasn't much use with a sword so I gave that up REAL quick)

I do like the picture though.. I don't usually do the thing with the 4 wings and that pose isn't REALLY me.. but I know how artists are.. alway going for drama in everything.

[Tichy]

I shift-U'd a few things on my OSX and after a bit the battle froze. Had to force quit. Cool little feature in any case.

[WraithLord]

I checked out on the Grigori wish (Unit #1). Very cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'd say wishing for Grigori is off limits.

[Wokeye]

Wow, those Lords are insane! 5 map move?!?

[atul]

One thing about this game I love is the occasional "up yours" attitude jokes by devs, like this wishable Grigori thing. Anyway, unless it's meant to be real gangsta, one "the" is mistyped as "tha" in the description.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think it's a joke so much as an attempt by KO to prevent Wishing of that unit without requiring code changes from JK. Pure pragmatism.

-Max

[Zeldor]

I think it is worse idea to have uber powerful SCs only for few races.

[atul]

Well if it was due to pure pragmatism the description wouldn't be like that. It can't be that I was the only one to find that one humorous.

[WraithLord]

I'm not sure I agree from the standpoint that I prefer a more diverse game. Exact balance in the way of making the exact same strategies available to all nations is boring.

This is what bothered me with tartarians, that come end game everyone will rush to spam them.

As for super SCs available to Hinom - the nation is very powerful that's evident but it has its weaknesses. And most important, in an MP game sometimes being too strong is a disadvantage (the gang up on the leader syndrome).

Bottom line, I opt for more diversity in the gameplay even if some nations get situationally stronger than others.

[Zeldor]

But when you take a look there is really very limited amount of SCs available. And most of them are not available for most of the races. Just few nations have thugs and national SCs, which is really big factor later. And usually nations with strong magic get access to good SCs, making their advantage even bigger.

That B9 Hinnom ones are really very powerful. And they are given to a race that is probably one of the strongest in EA now. And access to them isn't extremely hard for them, while other ones tend to be harder to get.

[Twan]

Actually, I fear mp balance has been forgoten for this patch.

The new nations (at least the EA and MA ones) seem to have been balanced against Amos angels, or I don't know what, not (most) other vanilla nations. If they are not rushed in the very first turns (they may have a vulnerability before they finish their initial expansion, as their base units are expensive, but as soon they have gold and gems income to recruit their thugs or best mages each turn and forge some gear, they are clearly excellent).

Their theorical problem (gluttony) is laughable for thugs nations, as commanders never starve (like other giants, they just need troops for sieges, and expandable indies can do the job).

Then they have no problem I can see for start (4 or 5 sacreds with a good bless or 10 giants of any kind can take about anything), nor in mid-late game with 18 MR recruitable thugs with 50 FR and 3 misc slots, and sages to mitigate their research weakness, nor probably in endgame with rather diverse magic, access to some of the best paths, and the best national summons in the game.

There may be 4 or 5 nations arguably as good but I see none better.

In general I think thugs nations should have crappy magic to compensate, I wonder why several* of them got the most powerful paths for endgame, astral, death, blood and correct mages when some nations have no thugs nor good mages, nor good access to any of the powerful paths (Man as always).

Now of course, I've not tested them in MP yet, so I may be wrong on their strength, but I can't find where is their weakness (capitol dependance ? Man is also very capitol dependant).

* another example is Utgard, which is clearly in my "4 or 5 nations arguably as good" list -people just don't realize how much it's an excellent nation, because the 2 others are the free spawn nations dominating the late age- but at least jotun thugs have bad MR

[Aezeal]

The mages aren't that impressive are they?

[Zeldor]

Twan:

You forgot about size 6 tramplers for Hinnom, tramplers with decent morale, MR and horn blowers to boost the morale.

Great units for early game [so no points wasted for awake SC, not even dormant one], great mid-game [thugs], great end-game [uber powerful summons, try to beat stealthy seraph assassins]. And well, they can also wish for seraph if they want to.

I haven't tested MA or LA, so can't tell anything about them. And argument that powerful nations have problems in MP is simply out of place. I have no fun of trying to compesate for weaknesses of my nation with lack of starting position and diplomacy. Like good nations were forbidden to do that too...

[Twan]

Aezeal said:
The mages aren't that impressive are they?



They are not excellent but good.

Ashdod :

The capitol mage isn't very good (only 3 levels) but one/3 has S3, and of course all are thugables.

The armored thug has 2 levels, fire earth or astral.

The best non capitol mage (zamzummite), is h1 + d2/e1 + 2? with possible access to death 4 (1/12). It cost 310 gold but is sacred, so no more upkeep than an Arco astrologer (having one less level and capitol only) or a Ctisian marshmaster (same level and access to death but weak water/nature magic instead of fire/earth/astral for the other paths) -to take 2 mages based nations in example- and not far more expensive than not thugable mage/priest of many nations.

And if you don't have gold to recruit them everywhere there is sage with 2 levels (s2, e2 or f2) and +2 research bonus for 175 gold.


Hinnom :

Capitol mage with h1+ blood 3 + another path 3 (possibly astral, or fire, earth), cost 500 gold but sacred and excellent thug with fear and 66hp.

Armored thug with 2 levels + b2.

In all forts :
A 150 gold sacred blood hunter with b1 + 1 random.
2 level 2 mages costing 125 gold (one with nature one with elements or astral), one of them is healer, the other a good fortune teller (10)
120g shamans with e1 d1 n1 but with a research mallus

(all of course having 20+ hp, up to 66 for the capitol only balz)

[MaxWilson]

My reaction to Hinnom was kind of "meh." The charioteers look fun, but the mages are expensive and moderately weak outside of blood. (E3/F3/S3 on the cap-only versions, E2/F2/S2/N2 elsewhere. No cross-path spells.) The way the randoms work is interesting--I like correlated randoms--but there's no really cheap blood hunter (best is B1 for 150 gold, sacred) which would make a blood summons economy more expensive. I'm not really tempted to play them over, say, EA Ermor or Sauromatia or Agartha. Might be different in MP, and might be just because I hate blood magic for battle spells (WAY too much micromanagement), but while Hinnom is an entertaining and thematic nation I'm not going to fear them in SP the way I fear Niefelheim or the Vans.

-Max

[WraithLord]

Fielding squads of giants has its weaknesses too. For example, probably the most efficient way to play Hinom is take strong bless and expand/fight with small squads of giants and/or SCs. In the early to mid game a competent player can counter this quite effectively. For example a human nation can field armies designed to swarm the giants backed by mages scripted to stop them (with entangle, fire bonds, false fetters for example).

They don't have stealth units so a stealthy nation like Pangaea can give them extremely hard time.

The Hinom SCs flavor text implies that they may hurt their own population.

Are their mages better than EA TC?

Having said that, I think we need to wait some more time for MP evidence to start coming regarding the new nation's strength. The fact that the AI plays dead to strong bless nations is largely irrelevant to MP.

[Endoperez]

WraithLord said:
The Hinom SCs flavor text implies that they may hurt their own population.




They devour population. I don't remember how much, exactly, but it's something like 30 pop/month/Rephaite in EA. The Rephaite Warrior units, Kohen (priests), Melqarts (thugs) and Ba'al (mages) all do this, and because they're all capital-only, you probably want to take Growth to keep your capital from dying.

[Aezeal]

DO they do that standard or only if there isn't enough food though?

[Twan]

I've forgoten that, didn't noticed it in fact when I tested Hinomm (I'm so lazy in sp that my balz were blood hunting in the capitol... so losing pop looked normal). But it's an interesting disavantadge in the long run (but as main researchers don't do that it's probably not a big one).

[Endoperez]

It's every turn even if they have enough normal food. I didn't test if they eat more people when they run out of food.

[secretperson]

Lol, nice unit #1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I can just imagine the angry post of some poor soul who wished for that in MP

[MaxWilson]

Ashdod looks cool, though. Will probably need a Prod scale or two--Gileadite archers are cooler than longbowmen but cost Resource 49, and the top-line sacred troop costs Resource 88! Most important thing: the Zamzummite is a pretty cool battle mage. Decent precision (10, though no access to Air for precision boosters), some will be capable of casting D4 spells like Cloud of Death, E3F1 spells like Magma Eruption, E5 spells (with Earth Boots, which are forgeable by Ashdod) like Weapons of Sharpness and Petrify, and D3F1 spells like Banefire. They can also participate in communions with the lesser mages. A bit more expensive than Ktonian Necromancers but they fill essentially the same niche (with a better mapmove).

I might try out Ashdod.

-Max

Edit: Okay, I'll add to that. Ashdod is *seriously* cool. I hope I'm not repeating anything others have said, but here's what I saw:

Even without a pretender, they can forge boosters to get up to F5 (F6 on battlefield, think Flame Storm w/ giant-HP chaff), D6 (Darkness/Rigor Mortis/skelly spam or national summons), E5 (E6 on battlefield), and S5. National summons are interesting, and the higher level ones are incredible. The 9th level Call Merkavah spell was incredible when I tried it in a quick test game. Even naked and unblessed, the Ophanim just rolled over everything I sent them at without taking a single wound that I saw. Def 15, Prot 21, sacred, Awe +3 (or was it +6?), fire shield 9, size 5 flying tramplers with map move fly 5, I'm in love. Better than Iron Dragons stat-wise and IMHO more fun to watch ("rolling wheels of fire," heh). I didn't even do anything with the Chayot, he just stood there and watched the carnage. (Interestingly, some of Ashdod's national summons have Shattered Soul.) I didn't play much with their normal troops but they seem acceptably fun. I did note that their PD is pretty well-balanced. Nice mix of Gileadite archers, Gileadite spearmen, and Edomite somethings. PD is potentially important for resource-hungry Ashdod.

Since Earth, Death, and Astral are my favorite schools (with a smattering of Fire for the magma spells) I think Ashdod is going to become my new favorite flavor for the next month or so. Now to see how well they do at expansion...

[Taqwus]

Hinnom's bows are interesting. Range 45, damage 15 (strength not added). Expensive buggers because they're both large and armored.

National summons in both Conj and Blood schools. Summons sometimes demonic, which raises the usual problem for a non-death nation -- getting high undead leadership, 'specially for the weaker demons. Summons include a unit similar to a Succubus, but that requires N4/25 and Conj, not Blood.

[Meglobob]

Taqwus said:
Hinnom's bows are interesting. Range 45, damage 15 (strength not added). Expensive buggers because they're both large and armored.



Especially interesting as they can cast flaming arrows and wind guide very easily as a nation.

Just another part of the HUGE Hinnom offensive arsenal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heh, we now have enough giant races over the 3 ages to have a giant only MP game!

[MaxWilson]

Agartha, Niefelheim/Jotunheim, Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath. Am I missing any?

-Max

[thejeff]

I'm not too worried about the bows. I'd rather have a hundred flaming shortbows than the 20 or so of those you could get as easily. High gold and resource cost <> useful archers.

The chariots and giant sacreds and sacred thugs, on the other hand....


Fomoria is one other giant race

[MaxWilson]

Ashdod has slingers (7 gold, 2 res) which make a dandy chassis for Flaming Arrows, IIRC.

-Max

[moderation]

MaxWilson said:
Agartha, Niefelheim/Jotunheim, Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath. Am I missing any?

-Max



Don't forget Formoria. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also, I've never thought of Argatha as a giant race. I guess their EA units are somewhat giant-ish.

[MaxWilson]

I think of EA Agartha as a giant race because they have sacred, recruitable-anywhere giant Ancient Ones and commanders (and troglodyte thugs) such that I have trouble imaging why you'd recruit normal Pale Ones except as chaff to screen for your battlemages.

-Max

[Taqwus]

The chariots are fairly slow -- they can trample fairly big units and do considerable damage, but against hordes of individually modest units one might be better off with 'normal' chariots with more AP.

Thugs are nasty, expensive, and pop-eating. The sacred units are much the same way, which means massing them is going to be ugly if you're playing a slow, huge-map game where pop might matter more, or if you simply like playing the vaguely benevolent ruler. OTOH, you do get astral, so you can Shroud your non-sacred random-2 mages if you took a relevant bless. You can get E2, so boots and hammers are accessible. N2 will help with the supply issues, but not the pop-eating.

Keep these units in top shape with a recruit-anywhere Healer(50) N2. Handy.

Heroes are fairly nasty -- children of the Lords of Civilization.

Haven't played around much with the proto-cavemen yet. Decent environmental resistances and constitution, darkvision 50, unremarkable skills and equipment.

Weak access to most paths (water and death excluded), usually 2s, strong in blood.

...oh, and if you do get death and start reanimating, the longdead you get include longdead Nephilim and so forth. :p

[Aezeal]

I really think that healer is a bit to much.

[hunt11]

it would make more sense to keep the actual mage but have him lose the healing, because they really need nature magic

[MaxWilson]

The healer seems fine to me, but as I said, Hinnom is a bit "meh" in my eyes. Let's wait and see whether it's a problem in MP.

-Max

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Late Age, dash of Middle Age.
Has anyone tried/formed an opinion on Gath's "Memories of Stone", and "Strange Fire".

Memories of Stone is a really beefed up version of reanimate dead, but isn't super combatant or anything... 17 hitpoint, 22 strength, 25 protection, 15 resist skeletons, 5+ per 10 gems. Banishment may prove difficult, but

Strange Fire seems incredibly difficult to cast with your nation's mages. I'm not sure why its there.

[Lingchih]

Oh my god. The Rephaite and Nephilim eat everyone in a province. I mean it's bad. Might not be so bad in your cap, with a high Growth, but I'm sieging an enemy castle right now with several of them (one Nephilim hero and several Rephaite commanders), and they are eating 500 people a turn. The province will be empty by the time I get the walls down. And my sieging troops keep starving, cause the Giants are eating all the farmers.

I think there is a big challenge to playing this nation in MP. It will take some good planning and commander deployment, to avoid eating all your peoples. And this in not a death nation... they need people in the provinces.

Playing EA Hinnom, btw, in case you had not guessed. I have found that if you send enough healers into the province you are sieging, they can heal most of the troops of their starving afflictions, and beef up supplies too. Still, tough going.

[MaxWilson]

Heh heh heh. 500 people a turn? That's very thematic.

[MaxWilson]

Azeral said:
Also, I semi-rescind my notion of the case being absolutely clear-cut, because it appears that summoning a Chayot automatically comes with 4 non-commander Ophanim. At 59 gems a piece and able to solo ridiculous numbers of things each, the loss of two misc slots hurts a little but...uh...flying and map move 5, I'm pretty much just throwing them under the flying/6 Chayot and going wild. If nature blessing bypasses lifelessness, I think I have a new favorite strategy.



I just checked and it does not bypass lifelessness. I'm not sure it matters, though. Either you're taking damage (probably from spells) or you're not.

-Max

[Aezeal]

it's almost the strongest healer in teh game.. for a nation with giants...

[MaxWilson]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Strange Fire seems incredibly difficult to cast with your nation's mages. I'm not sure why its there.



Ashdod has it too. While the occasional Talmai Elder will be S3F1 and able to cast it naked, it's still kind of an odd spell, like the Wolf Pack spell for Helheim that takes Nature mages to cast (Helheim has no access to nature). It's probably thematic flavoring.

-Max

[Jagdpanther]

level 9 blood and 177 blood slaves ... cool. What skill level of blood is needed for the summons?

[JaghataiKhan]

Must...buy...game! I am going to lose my mind if I can't buy this soon!I just need to stop procrastinating and idly typing info for the Turanic mod!

I caught a few slaves before. isn't 177 an overkill or stupid price,unfeasible for actual gameplay, just for fun?

[thejeff]

Not at all. Since you can decide how many bloodhunters to use, you can push your blood slave income up pretty high.
Three bloodhunters in a province are likely to bring in ~15 slaves a month. If you've got 7-8 provinces being hunted, 177 is only a couple of turns.

[Poopsi]

I think that with one hunter per province you can get that in two-three turns if you have 7-8 provinces being hunted. Obviously depends on the special site freç