Death Match Competition

[iceboy]

So what happens to the champions trident if the winner who gets it has no arms???

[K]

He gets the XP, but not the trident.

That's actually a good thing, since then he won't be called again for the next death match.

[JimMorrison]

Aaaaand, won't be stuck with that ghetto *cursed* trident. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Lingchih]

I sent a blind, feeble-minded mage to the tournament in Fallacy, to get him killed. He was the only guy that showed up though, so they just gave him the trident.

It's sad. He keeps poking himself with it because he can't tell which end is the pointy one.

[JimMorrison]

"Why is the cork on the fork?"

"Pguh."

[NTJedi]

Lingchih said:
I sent a blind, feeble-minded mage to the tournament in Fallacy, to get him killed. He was the only guy that showed up though, so they just gave him the trident.




A perfect example why the arena death match needs to be improved. The prize should be something of value which increases based on the current game turn, possibly even a combination of stuff.
Gems, Gold and Experience based on the current game turn. Requests for improvements on the arena death match have existed since at least DOM_2... I guess it's too difficult to improve the programming and make the death match worthwhile.

[Twan]

I've made a little mod (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=611653&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) to make the reward really good.

Giving the trident the killing light power of the sword of living colors should make it sufficiently interesting to see all nations risk a real champion in the match.

It's also a way to balance the powerful reward if the death match happen too early in the game, because the champion himself need high MR to avoid the dammage, he would probably be killed by the light if he tries to use it before his nation can forge MR gear.

The problem is to have MP hosts use it. I think little mods aren't popular (out of urgent fixes) because it forces player to download one more mod for just a little change.

This kind of modification should be included in Worthy Heroes or CBM to start to be regularly used.

[fantasma]

Since you can give the trident to another commander, you keep the experienced champion and can send a fresh one just for the starts, or a commander you want to get killed.

[MaxWilson]

The trident is cursed--you can't give it to another commander. Or am I misremembering?

-Max

[Twan]

Hum do my mod remove the curse ? It shouldn't.

[fantasma]

I for - almost - sure did remove it, but maybe that changed in a patch?

[Twan]

Actually the item is cursed and can't be transfered to other commanders (with or without my mod), and it's that since dom 2 at least.

But there is a way to remove the item if your champion can shape change to a form without hand slots I think.

[fantasma]

then my memory is really, really bad.

[NTJedi]

I believe it's possible to completely remove the arena death match by creating a small mod which removes the "arena" magic site.

[MaxWilson]

Isn't the "Arena" just a blood magic site which provides 25 gold per turn?

-Max

[NTJedi]

MaxWilson said:
Isn't the "Arena" just a blood magic site which provides 25 gold per turn?

-Max



Correct, however every time there's an arena death match event each battle zooms into a province location. This province location has always had the arena magic site.

From my testing removing the arena magic site has prevented the arena death match as a natural event. The spell wish would still make it occur.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting, thanks.

[Omnirizon]

if there is no arena, and you wish for a deathmatch, then what province does it zoom in on?

perhaps the one in which the wish was cast?

[chrispedersen]

It would be interesting if the victor of death matches won victory points, each turn, until deposed.

Chris

[thejeff]

Now there's an interesting victory condition.

The first nation to win 3 death matches wins the game.

[Aezeal]

ehm that is not interesting or in any way balancable.

[iceboy]

NTJedi said:

MaxWilson said:
Isn't the "Arena" just a blood magic site which provides 25 gold per turn?

-Max



Correct, however every time there's an arena death match event each battle zooms into a province location. This province location has always had the arena magic site.

From my testing removing the arena magic site has prevented the arena death match as a natural event. The spell wish would still make it occur.



This sounds just what ive been looking for! Ive been wanting to get rid of this AI killing event for some time now. Please tell me how I can do this! What file do I mod?

[capnq]

NTJedi said: every time there's an arena death match event each battle zooms into a province location. This province location has always had the arena magic site.

Every death match battle replay I've watched in Dom3 has displayed a blank woodgrain background on the screen where you normally see the province zoom. (OTOH, I haven't sent a competitor to any of those death matches.)

[Edratman]

It would be nice if death match was an option on the set-up screen like renaming.

I entered about 2 dozen death matches when I first started playing. When I finally won all I got was a crummy cursed trident and a severely damaged pretender. It was the last death match I ever entered.

Now I watch the AI nations send/waste first rate units in the death matches. The AI also will send weak commanders, so I can not figure out the AI logic on match choices, but I do think it is a waste of AI units.

This thread does have some good ideas to enhance the death match, but it still should be an option.

[Maraxus]

When Playing a Jotunheim-Version, I like to send in a Skrati in Werewolf-shape, cast breath of winter and/or Quicken self and attack has a reasonable chance to win, is not to terrible if he dies and can unequip the trident by changing into Wolf-shape. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Besides this, someone with death2 for a little raise skeletons is reasonably cost-efficient and every experience point is one research point the turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Btw: I allways had the impression, that the battle just zooms onto the middle of the map.

[Edratman]

Maraxus, the other posters are correct on the location: the death match is held in a province with the arena.

[iceboy]

So can anyone tell me how to mod out the arena?

[MaxWilson]

I haven't played with site modding at all, but page 12 of the modding manual (a PDF that comes with the game under the \dominions3\docs directory) I believe you'd add this to a mod file:

#selectsite "arena"
#rarity 5
#end

-Max

[Dragar]

It seems a shame that players don't enter the death match event, it’s a good concept

What happens in MP games? Do people enter death matches in order to try and take out enemy heroes? What level of prize would be necessary to convince people to enter?

[sum1lost]

I've seen people enter scouts weilding bane charms and slave collars for enemy heroes. Sometimes void eyes if somebody is toting a Cyclops.

[JimMorrison]

My suggestion:

Leave the trident the same, or only improve it slightly, it would essentially just be the *** end of the deal.

Make the real reward be a semi randomized (but based on size of map + date in game) treasure trove of gold and gems, and possibly a random item or two sent to your lab. A little time spent working out the math could easily yield an intriguing but not unbalancing reward system.

In any case, it really should be taken into account the potential level of gearing of the participants. If you can assume that in year 3 most people would spend a minimum of 50 gems on their champion, then why should they not expect to get at least that in return if they survive? What if the spoils of the arena were mostly made up of the gear of the losers? You put enough incentive in there to get the arms race started, and then let avarice escalate the war until you can bet people are throwing nicely geared thugs into the arena in the hopes of being the winner.

Or another alternative, give the winner a random assortment of monster summons as reward. They're arena beasts, of course, crocodiles and bears and lions in early game, branching into bog beasts and manticores and elementals later on.


The sad part is, even as I brainstorm on this, it starts to become more apparent that any incentive that actually works in MP, will probably reach levels that are essentially imbalancing to the game. Perhaps if the losers of the matches were resurrected and sent home? If you remove the harshness of the penalty (they wouldn't have afflictions removed, however), then the small reward is more palatable, and you also don't have this random event hamstringing the AI by tempting in their prophets and pretenders to almost certain death.

[Dragar]

Maybe something like creating a specific promotion/ability for the death match winner, call it Tournament Champion

Its effect should be something very valuable for any combatant, a chunky Awe plus hitpoint bonus, something like that. Something that is powerful regardless of how many turns have played in the game.

[MaxWilson]

How about: the winner of the death match is Immortal until the next death match arrives?

-Max

[reverend]

In any rate, this event need improvement. Maybe even a warning message earlier than just the turn before, giving players time to properly equip a hero for the event.

[NTJedi]

reverend said:
In any rate, this event need improvement. Maybe even a warning message earlier than just the turn before, giving players time to properly equip a hero for the event.



I completely agree.

Currently the arena death match is mostly ignored by players for SP games and MP games since the prize is not worth risking the life of a good commander.

I like the idea behind the arena death match, but its prize needs to be improved so most players will want to risk the life of a good commander.

The reward should be scaled based on the current game turn, something like 10 random gems on turn_10 and 70 random gems on turn_70.

[JimMorrison]

NTJedi said:
The reward should be scaled based on the current game turn, something like 10 random gems on turn_10 and 70 random gems on turn_70.



But think about that, really. Say on turn 30, the DM is worth 30 gems for the prize. How many gems do you have on a decent thug at this point? If you're only hitting a few choice slots, maybe 20-25 gems? Would you really want to risk that thug for a 3/2 payout with 6-8 other people competing for it?

[Twan]

Instead of a reward, a punition for nations not trying to win the death match can be considered, or both punition and reward.

Winning death match should be an important matter of prestige for pretender gods nations.

Something like -3 morale for all troops if the nation sent nobody to the last DM, -1 if it sent someone but this champion was killed in his first fight, +1 if it sent a champion who had one or more victories, +3 if the nation won the last DM.

Or same kind of bonus/malus for dominion spread.

Of course it would need some code (and nations like LA Ermor would be immune to the bad effect) but it would also be ultra thematic IMO.

[PvK]

It's currently worth sending a low-level fellow who could use a trident and whom you don't mind losing... except the odds are fairly low unless no one is bothering, and the AI usually sends inappropriate units such as pretenders and prophets (meaning N-1 such AI units die whenever the arena happens, and appropriately lowly contestants are extra-unlikely to live).

The AI sending powerful units seems like the biggest shame of this to me, since it impairs SP games a bit. I'd say either the AI shouldn't do that, or the prize should be improved somehow so it's worth gambling a pretender at low odds. Like, if the winner got all of the defeated contestants' magic items delivered to their lab (or at least looted to the commander) and maybe a prize of all the gens and gold cost of the defeated units.

[JimMorrison]

PvK said:
It's currently worth sending a low-level fellow who could use a trident and whom you don't mind losing... except the odds are fairly low unless no one is bothering, and the AI usually sends inappropriate units such as pretenders and prophets (meaning N-1 such AI units die whenever the arena happens, and appropriately lowly contestants are extra-unlikely to live).

The AI sending powerful units seems like the biggest shame of this to me, since it impairs SP games a bit. I'd say either the AI shouldn't do that, or the prize should be improved somehow so it's worth gambling a pretender at low odds. Like, if the winner got all of the defeated contestants' magic items delivered to their lab (or at least looted to the commander) and maybe a prize of all the gens and gold cost of the defeated units.



See that's exactly where my train of thought went. Then I started to think about how large the rewards could get, especially in larger games with 18-20 or more nations, and the train derailed.

I think it's going to be hard to make the reward feel truly compelling, without making it potentially incredibly unbalanced.

[MaxWilson]

Immortality is thematic for the "death match" champion, and is still valuable in the late game. It's not readily abusable because it's restricted to your own dominion <font color="red">(and also makes you lose all your items)</font>, but it does confer the ability to heal afflictions and that's useful everywhere.

I do wonder: in the game right now, if the "arena" site is somewhere within your dominion and you send an immortal unit to the fight, does he come back to life when killed?

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Actually, so far as I've seen, based on dominion specific modifiers on prophets and such, it seems to treat each combatant as if they had never left the province they are in before the fight. I want to say that I saw an immortal unit survive a loss in the arena, but it was some months back when I actually paid any attention to the death matches. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But I do recall very clearly seeing pretenders and prophets with boosted HP, as if they were still in their own dominion. Small chance that I happened to only look at the ones whose dominion actually housed the arena for that match, but that seems highly unlikely to me.

[MaxWilson]

You always keep the boosted HP until the "heal" phase of the turn, which is after combat. Click on HP to see "maximum HP", which is what dominion affects. (Regen is also dependent upon maximum HP.)

-Max

[NTJedi]

JimMorrison said:

NTJedi said:
The reward should be scaled based on the current game turn, something like 10 random gems on turn_10 and 70 random gems on turn_70.



But think about that, really. Say on turn 30, the DM is worth 30 gems for the prize. How many gems do you have on a decent thug at this point? If you're only hitting a few choice slots, maybe 20-25 gems? Would you really want to risk that thug for a 3/2 payout with 6-8 other people competing for it?



Ideally the prize should be an adjustable user setting... small prize, medium prize and large prize. Since an adjustable setting is less likely the prize should increase with caution, thus 30 gems on turn_30.

The 30 gems of a random type on turn_30 is enough to make every player consider sending a thug. On the same note the player shouldn't be equipping the thug while risking an investment of 20 gems. As the game progresses the prize equally grows and so will the threat level of those participating in the competition.

The game should start with a minor prize which scales with the game turn to prevent anything unbalanced until we receive an optional game setting of small_prize, medium_prize and large_prize

[Endoperez]

On the other hand, consider the arena mechanic. All players may spend resources, and only one will benefit from it. If the price is worth a big risk, winning and not losing your thug will be very nice indeed.

If the arena event is too good, it will become unbalanced, and the mods that improve the arena might be banned from MP (compare to mercs).

Banning AI from sending in pretenders or uniques would be good, with no downsides that I can see.

[MaxWilson]

Why are mercs banned from MP? You'd think the auction system would guarantee that a fair price gets paid.

[Endoperez]

At least from blitz games. Nation(s) with mercs won't lose their own troops if the mercs are melee, or will have archer support, and will be able to expand much better than those without mercs. It's not about paying for an advantage. It's about some players having an advantage over others.

The money bid on mercs isn't used for recruiting, and losing time on the early game can be bad as well.

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:
If the arena event is too good, it will become unbalanced, and the mods that improve the arena might be banned from MP (compare to mercs).




I agree... that's why I suggest a small increase such as 30 gems for turn_30. Currently the arena death match event provides almost no value for players to participate. This is quite sad since it could be one of the more interesting events during the game.


Endoperez said:
Banning AI from sending in pretenders or uniques would be good, with no downsides that I can see.



I completely agree... any unit which is a pretender has a unique tag so it should be fairly simple to prevent pretenders from being part of the match. Unfortunately this change must be complex for Illwinter otherwise I'm sure an effort would have been made by now.

[Dragar]

What about stick as well as carrot? Make it compulsory to send a unit in to a death match. You can choose to send a weak commander in, and guarantee losing him, or send a strong one in to try and win and kill everyone elses. Agree Pretenders should be banned, would make a SC pretender too powerful a choice.

[NTJedi]

Dragar said:
What about stick as well as carrot? Make it compulsory to send a unit in to a death match. You can choose to send a weak commander in, and guarantee losing him, or send a strong one in to try and win and kill everyone elses. Agree Pretenders should be banned, would make a SC pretender too powerful a choice.



The suggestion of banning all pretenders is a good idea since no wise veteran player would ever consider the idea.

[Rathar]

I really like the stick and carrot approach as well as removing the compete in death match order possibility from pretenders.

[Twan]

@Endo

Death match, even if the reward is made very powerful, has no more reason to be banned from MP than say sites with indies mages, or uniques ones with school bonus.

There are a lot of things giving "unfair" advantage in this game, only balanced by equal opportunities to get them.

I personnally would prefer to see someone having an advantage because he took risk and was clever enough to win the DM minigame, than to only see people having one just because they were lucky and have found metal orders mages, lore masters or things like that in one of their first searches (something far more usefull than any property you can give to the trident or reward imagined here for the DM).

Of course thug nations have more chances to win the match if it happen early, but as well nations are not equal for indies conquest and site searching.

[Endoperez]

A price that benefits the nation in long term is good. Making the trident so powerful that it's a good choice over artifacts in late game (immortality without losing equipped items, say), and someone getting his hands on it on turn 10 is just ugly.

I just wanted to point out that the other extreme is bad. Giving gems to the winner or something like that wouldn't break anything.

[Zeldor]

I think that immortals really die in arena. I am not sure about getting killed in assassination attemp or by horror.

The problem with arena is that it is well... arena. So it is pretty much good for thugs/SCs. And in MP it really limits possible nations. If the prize will be worth it you will see giant thugs taking it early/mid game and tartarians in late game.

[lch]

To be honest, I think that having to go to the arena is one of the greatest dangers that a decked-out unit can face, especially as current champion when the others already know what you have. So I certainly would not send in my strongest SC in there. Either some random, uninteresting disposable commander, in case nobody else submits a unit (which is not that uncommon, actually) or some mid-level thug which isn't top notch, but could survive a hit or two and become valuable when he is wielding the champion's trident.

[sector24]

After we get the deathmatch arena fixed, I vote for implementing a Calydonian Boar Hunt event where every nation sends a unit, but they are all allied against a single extremely powerful monster. The character that lands the killing blow gets its hide or tusks or whatever the reward is.

The "boar" would have to have overloaded stats to prevent one shot kills and whatnot. It would be attacked by up to 20 something thug/SC level units after all. But more fun than any of that is the chance for players to be deliciously evil by casting spells like breath of winter, soul vortex, or globals like wrathful skies, and trying to kill their allies and the boar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It may not be MP viable but it sure would be fun.

[Taqwus]

One could scale the prize based on the MR, HP, and total equipment cost of all the fallen contestants. If it's a late-game pushover because all the others were unequipped indie commanders, weak reward -- if it's a massive 61-player game with 61 SCs, the prize should be *good*. :p

[Tuidjy]

Why not make it something simple as a reward of 3x turn# in random gems?
The trident can stay, it's a better weapon than many.

[NTJedi]

Tuidjy said:
Why not make it something simple as a reward of 3x turn# in random gems?
The trident can stay, it's a better weapon than many.



Any improvement would be appreciated by the community... currently the arena death match event is basically ignored in MP games and harmful to AI opponents in SP games.

[MaxWilson]

I liked the mod (wasn't it yours, Tuidjy?) that made the trident have killing light. Chaff-killing is something that's difficult to get on something other than a weapon, and it's the lack thereof on the current trident that makes me avoid it. The only thing I actually use my champions for in the current game is putting a skullface on them and letting them skelly spam at double rate.

-Max

Edit: Nope, it was Twan's mod. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=611653)

[NTJedi]

MaxWilson said:
Chaff-killing is something that's difficult to get on something other than a weapon, and it's the lack thereof on the current trident that makes me avoid it.
-Max



Many avoid the champions trident because it cannot be removed without shapeshifting and it curses you to participate in the next death match.

[Edratman]

NTJedi said:
[
Many avoid the champions trident because it cannot be removed without shapeshifting and it curses you to participate in the next death match.



Not to mention that the chances of picking up wounds are significent. If the reward was good enough, then the winner might be the one who is the least lamed.

[MaxWilson]

NTJedi said:
Many avoid the champions trident because it cannot be removed without shapeshifting and it curses you to participate in the next death match.



Yes, but as far as I'm concerned, the reason I would want to remove the trident from a thug would be to add a Shadow Brand or similar weapon. If the trident has killing light then I'm much less concerned about the fact that I'm losing both hand slots. (I would still want a shield on a top-line thug but the trident's defense bonus isn't bad and a thug's high Prot protects you from arrows pretty well anyway.)

-Max

[Ironhawk]

I would say that its enough just to make the Trident one-handed. That way your unit ends up with a decent one-handed weapon that gives quickness. You can still add another weapon for extra firepower or a shield for defense/luck.

[JimMorrison]

Make the trident 1h, and give it Heartfinding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

If it could be coded, add 100g per opponent defeated (or per match, so if 7 fights, you get 700g even if you only participated in 3 of them).


Then you got a deal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[MaxWilson]

What does Heartfinding do, anyway? I've never used enough blood magic to test it.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Me either, but I am guessing it gives an automatic chest wound?

I would be happy with Eyeloss too, actually that might even be better, would be hilarious on a trident.

[NTJedi]

MaxWilson said:

NTJedi said:
Many avoid the champions trident because it cannot be removed without shapeshifting and it curses you to participate in the next death match.



Yes, but as far as I'm concerned, the reason I would want to remove the trident from a thug would be to add a Shadow Brand or similar weapon. -Max



Yes, this is included within the first half of my statement... I just didn't list all the reasons for wanting to remove the trident.

[MaxWilson]

NTJedi said:
Yes, this is included within the first half of my statement... I just didn't list all the reasons for wanting to remove the trident.



Ah, okay.

-Max

[Endoperez]

#selectitem 1
#type 1
#end

This makes the Trident a one-handed weapon.

[Alderanas]

hmm the tirdent does suck alot but i have fun kicking the crap out of the AI leaders in the arena. I usually enter all deathmatches. The first one i usually send a crap commander then the second one if i have an assassin i usually send him in with the crown that makes people ethreal. The AI in my games for some reason alwasy send thier gods to the arena every time. its wierd. never had a game where they sent crap units.

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez,

Yep, that does it. Thanks. I'm not sure if this would affect other tridents, but there aren't very many in the game--one unique I think, and if you GoR a C'tissian Elite Warrior he has a trident.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Wave Breaker
Trident From Beyond

Wave Breaker would actually be pretty sweet if it were 1h, I'd be tempted to make them fairly often with W nations.

[Endoperez]

There are exception to 2h rules already. Some units use Tridents with shield IIRC, or atleast glaaives. EA Agarthans, spesifically, have Pale Ones with glaives and Ancient ones with glaives and bucklers.

The mod only changes the type of forging/type of slots the trident takes. I think the weapon itself is still actually 2h weapon, but that doesn't matter if items override base weapon stats.

Speaking of weapons, are there any weapons that you'd like to see changed for balance reasons? Magical or mundane, doesn't matter. I've made a small mod that ups damage of heavy weapons few few points, moves axes and hammers and mauls up by few points, ups attack of spears and glaives and halberds and axes and battleaxes slightly, etc. I've also changed some resource values around, and took defence bonus away from made shortswords.

[NTJedi]

Let me try my necromancy skills....
anyone planning for another arena match competition?

I figure once every three years is about right.

EDIT: This is in reference to the arena competition we had on the forums... I think I did necromancy on the wrong thread.

[brxbrx]

I've always seen the trident as quite good, at least for the purposes of winning more arena death matches...

It gives quickness and a nice boost to defense, and has two attacks. It's not the Unquenched Sword, but it's not a bad weapon.
And the death matches can be fun

[brxbrx]

Wait a minute-
this thread is three years old!

[brxbrx]

I saw 6-8, and I figured it was just a few weeks old...

Only after I post do I see it's from 2008...

sorry