The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Thread!

[TheMenacer]

Thousands of years ago/shortly before the latest patch, there was a discussion thread regarding the nature of shattered soul for our good endgame friends, the tartarians. Inspired by the end of the thread, which became a discussion of summons to rival their use in the endgame. I think then, that it's only right that we should have a thread about exactly that. Let's talk about what would be super awesome to see as summons, national or otherwise, to, if not replace, then at least stand up to the venerable tartarian and give every nation a leg up in the end game instead of the astral/blood/death nations.

I suppose I should go first with the national summon I suggested in the original thread, an Awakened Rimtursar giant for the Neifelheim nation line. Although they don't really need any help as far as SCs go, it'd be nicely thematic to have them considering that they have the Illwinter global to herald the return of the Rimtursar, but no actual way to get their mitts on one of the giants themselves. I think it'd also be nicely thematic to give them sort of sub par stats, like possibly below human-level in all the numbers effected by cold power, but with a cold power of like 7 or 8 so that anyone wanted to use them effectively would need to have Illwinter up to keep those temperatures nice and low. Of course, with cold power like that, as long as they were in a cold-3 province, their stats would be completely insane and they'd have to have an enormous cold aura, so they'd kick all kinds of ***, making their use a careful temperature-related balancing act.

For Agartha, at least EA Agartha, I'd like to see a death summon to open up that seal that everyone's guarding and see what's back there. Considering all the umbrals hanging out around the seal, I'd imagine some kind of mega-umbral, but who knows. It'd be sort of nice if it was implied that it was casting this summon to weaken the seal and let loose whatever's back there that ultimately lead to the decline of the Pale Ones considering that the seal isn't mentioned in the descriptions of any unit of the later ages aside from the umbrals themselves. Also I think for LA Agartha a zombie Ageless Olm could make an exceptionally awesome summon.

Also, before anyone makes the brilliant point that anything here can easily be modded in, yes, that is very true, and any modder willing to take up the cause would be a hero to children everywhere.

[JimMorrison]

For EA Agartha, I think it would be cool if it were something like the Balrog from LOTR. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif That would be an incredibly cool summons to see, if not for them, than for Abysia perhaps.

Personally, I think there should be some powerful endgame summons available for every path, if not for every nation. Currently only a few nations are blessed with an abundance of potentially useful summons, leading to the S/D/B paradigm that we see today. It's true that there are -some- decent summons in other paths, but many are considered inferior, and too many are unique, which means they'll never be competitive against even 5-6 Tarts, let alone a dozen or more (even with Shattered Soul, sheer numbers tip the scales).

The only problem that I see, is that if a mod is developed, it's likely that it won't be widely adopted, even if it makes great strides in making more playstyles viable. Take CBM for example, I have tried it, and most of the changes are pretty awesome, as far as widening strategic viability. Yet, most games do not use it, so getting used to those options has no value in MP. In fact it could be argued that while content mods are great for making SP more fun, that they are detrimental to anyone who enjoys MP, as they teach you a different game.

The flip side of that, is that there is the remote chance, that if the summons were thought out well enough, and received widespread acceptance, IW might, MIGHT be persuaded to include them in the game, and that would be priceless indeed.


To be perfectly honest, I think IW could easily fill in the gaps by taking the pretenders as they exist, adding a couple magic paths (to most of them, not all), changing the descrip, and then making them available in the appropriate paths. Removing the conceptual and graphical phases of the creation, should relatively simplify the design of the spell/creature, and there is nothing implicitly unique about any of them really, the pretender is just a very ambitious individual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

Gandalf Parker advocated the notion that learning to play the game well included learning how to adapt to changes on the fly. He used to run randomized games where certain unit stats were given random values (maybe archers have Prot 18) and you don't discover this until you encounter some. I don't do this myself but that's partly because I'm still learning the basic game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Some people like games which force you to make decisions under risk (i.e. you don't know whether you'll succeed but you know the probabilities), others like games where you make decisions under uncertainty (where you don't even know the probabilities). I find the latter category fun but nerve-wracking. It's like the first time you try out a new magic item or spell--will it be worthwhile and win you the battle or will it just get you killed? I've been surprised in both directions.

Note that intel-gathering on capabilities becomes much more important in Gandalf's chaos-style games. In that respect it resembles real life.

-Max

[PyroStock]

Dragons in world mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dragons_in_mythology_and_folklore (interesting uniques like Zirnitra, Fafnir, Ryujin, etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons_in_Greek_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon

There's plenty of potential beyond the overpriced 1map move non-commander Tarrasque.

[JimMorrison]

Well adding more random or dynamic factors I'm sure could keep things interesting and add new challenge for hardcore veteran addicts.

But for those of us who haven't been playing since release, and don't have these algorithms plugged into our brain to allow us to accurately evaluate completely new units and capabilities on the fly, it would seem to just inspire confusion.....

Dominions is like some kind of crazy Rock < Paper < Scissors < Hammer < Burlap Sack < Machete < Wrecking Ball < Body Bag < Chainsaw..... kind of progression, and constantly adding or removing steps in that can ultimately lead to a newer player discovering more of the innate truths of the game, but it'll do nothing for helping them develop consistent results from a predetermined set of capabilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

My point being, that it seems most people consider it very risky, (bordering on suicidal) to play in MP without S/D/B access, so getting used to a mod that allows you to play most nations competitively without strong investment into those paths (and their associated schools), would make a less experienced player much weaker in vanilla MP games. Currently it's not so viable to really focus on the 1-2 paths that most nations start with very strong access to.


God I could just keep typing. What I mean to say is, I want to see more late game summons as viable alternatives to what is already available. I want them to be so compelling and strategically interesting, that they are included in all MP games. I also want a pony for Xmas.

[TheMenacer]

That's pretty much what this is all about. Having the only viable endgame options be A: Wishing for Seraphs, B: GoR-ing Tartarians, or C: Being Mictlan isn't much of an endgame in my opinion. Having this be fixed up via mod wouldn't exactly be ideal for exactly those reasons that JimMorrison said, someone gets used to playing with everything being viable and then strolls into an MP game wanting to play a nature-heavy nation and expects his thematic-high-nature-magic pretender to actually do something is going to get his head handed to him. The only reason I brought up modding this in is because it seems more likely that someone here would take the reigns on this than to actually get official support for such a thing. And who knows, maybe if the thread takes off and gets some cool ideas going on in it, we'll see some of the content show up in a later patch. Also ponies.

Incidentally, I'm really really surprised there isn't a Chinese dragon summon for Tien Chi. That could do a pretty fair job as an endgame summon for them, especially since Chinese dragons were supposed to have all kinds of wacky magical powers over stuff like the weather, which suggests air and water magic, two pretty solid paths for self-buffing.

[Spendios]

Dragons could be good I think. Pretenders dragons could be renamed Ancient Dragons, Dragons Kings or things like that to note their godlike status.

The same thing could be used for the cyclops with a cyclop king pretender and normal cyclops as summons.

The Roc and the Thunderbird could be nice Air themed summons.
Also the Lammasu (though I do not know the difference between a lammasu and a shedu).

What about karkadann from persian mythology ?

[llamabeast]

Ah, great! I had meant to start exactly this thread up, maybe even today!

It would indeed be awesome if there were more late-game summons in the game. I think people have been aware of this for a while, but somehow only recently has it been vocalised.

If we do end up producing something awesome, I reckon it will find its way into MP games. I mean, I (or anyone else) can always start a game and say "this game will use this mod". Mostly you can still fill the game up. The early mod nation games filled up slowly, but more recent games including mod nations filled up just fine.

I think this idea of including pretenders as late-game summons is genius, since they are a ready-made source of powerful creatures, complete with graphics and a mythological backstory. On the other hand they are mainly big human-shaped things, so it would be interesting to have some more variety (for example in the other thread I know someone was talking about treemen - I would feel like a treeman summon was more thematic than a Lord of the Wild or other nature pretender).

We don't actually need very many to make a very big difference I think.

[Ironhawk]

JimMorrison said:
But for those of us who haven't been playing since release, and don't have these algorithms plugged into our brain to allow us to accurately evaluate completely new units and capabilities on the fly, it would seem to just inspire confusion.....




Actually, it is a trap to think in this way. Dominions has such a huge number of units and spells that its really not possible to learn them all. Sure, you need to build a base of experience in a static environment. But the skills you should be building are unit evaluation, rather than rote memorization. If you do that, then it doesnt matter what mods your game has.

[llamabeast]

Okay, I have been looking at pretenders. Here is a list of pretenders which I think might be reasonable, to a greater or lesser extent, to use as a summon:

Wyrm
Lord of the Desert Sun/Summer Plague
Titan/Titaness
Asynja
Divine Serpent
Lady of Springs
Manticore
Cyclops
Dragons
Dracolich
Nataraja/Destroyer of Worlds
Scorpion King
Son of the Sea
Ancient Kraken
Old Man of the Sea
Lord of the Waves
Nerid
Lord of the Sky/Son of the Heavens
Ageless Olm

Some will need some changes to their descriptions and so on, but none of these are truly unique (most of the human ones are described like "The so-and-so is a demigod born from a river" which I would think there could be several of). So I think all of these are at least possibles. Some, though, feel somehow wrong. To me a Wyrm is very much a pretender, and shouldn't be summonable. Can't say why I feel that more about a Wyrm than a dragon though.

I'm still really interested in any new ideas people have for late game monsters though. Personally I'm drawing a creative blank right now. I may be able to do graphics if I can find time, for a small number of original ideas at least.

[Loren]

My take is that there should be something at Conjuration 9 for each path.

Or perhaps a generic "Summon Dragon" that can be cast by any level 9 caster no matter what the path--it's just what you get will be based on whatever path(s) the caster has.

[Twan]

For dragons I had the idea of a spell summoning a dragon egg, then you'll have to shapechange it each turn during a five or six turns, to end with an adult dragon -with young dragon forms before the last one- (the only problem is : with actual mod commands the egg would be able to shapechange each round of combat).

[JimMorrison]

Ironhawk said:
Dominions has such a huge number of units and spells that its really not possible to learn them all. Sure, you need to build a base of experience in a static environment. But the skills you should be building are unit evaluation, rather than rote memorization. If you do that, then it doesnt matter what mods your game has.



I fully agree. But one must learn how to dance one step at a time. Perfecting certain basic moves is essential to having the background to accurately plan off of highly unexpected circumstances. It is one thing to end up with a different gem balance than you are used to, quite another to suddenly have 18 Prot archers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Anyways, let's see what I can do for ideas -

Balrog - E/F - demon, flying, fear, heat aura
Ettin - E - Ambi, extra head slot
Cockatrice - E/F - Petrify, flying
Treant - N - mobile treelord, summon ally: vine ogre
Sasquatch - A/N - trample, cold aura
Olm - W/E - mind blast, enslave mind
Gorgon - E/N - (really, just like the pretender)
Void Hunter - S - similar to Void Lord, alternative to Wish
Shishi - A - flying, standard, lightning
Celestial Master - A/S - samurai or monk, draw from Raiden from MK


I'll think of more later, I need to go for awhile. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[JimMorrison]

Before I run, that's a good start Llama, I like it. For some reason though, I'd have to disagree on the wyrm. To me, it almost seems as if it more belongs as a summon, and LESS as a pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Somehow a being that lacks magic (of course, most people put SOMETHING on their wyrm, for buffs anyhow), doesn't seem very awe inspiring or worship-worthy. If the wyrm and the coatl traded places, it would make plenty of sense. But, just making the wyrm into a summons (and letting it stay as a pretender option) would be fine also. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[TheMenacer]

I doubt the Nataraja or Destroyer of Worlds should be summonable because they're based off of specific hindu gods (forget which ones though, I think the one with the severed head and all the anti demon weapons is based on Kali, although nobody should quote me on that) and the various "Lord/Son of ..." titans probably wouldn't make for good summons unless a given player were to rationalize summoning other gods to help him out as building up a pantheon (there's a thought, instead of just pretender god vs. pretender god, it's pretender pantheon vs. pretender pantheon). The other assorted monstrous pretender types would definitely make for solid endgame summons though. I'd still like to see a lot of nation specific summons as well as more general one though, although that's me.

Just a thought, despite the fact that it changes nothing about how awesome blood magic is for the endgame, I'd like to see LA Marignon get some national blood summons for more specifically Christian demons. I mean, it gets all those sweet angelic summons for the middle era, so it's firmly a Christian-inspired nation, and yet it's got nothing specifically Christian for its horrifyingly corrupt late era except for the angels which still hang around for some reason despite the whole nation being based entirely on how much it loves to sacrifice virgins and torture people. I suppose the vast majority of blood summons are already pretty well based on Christian mythology, but there have to be at least a few demons, specific individuals or otherwise, just waiting to be turned into summonable minions.

Also yet more ideas, Machacka is supposed to have a dead god sleeping in their mountain, right? Well I think by the time endgame magics start getting tossed around, it's high time they woke his *** up. Also, just so they can have more than one endgame monster running around, how about size 6 divine spiders with an awe or fear aura that just bust all kinds of heads in.

And for Pangaea, I think carrion summons are awesome, and also things like the carrion dragon are cool as hell, so why not push the carrion-related envelope. Having a really high level summon that just calls up a carrion tartarian would be wacky as hell and pretty much the best thing. Failing that, any unit's carrion equivalent would be fun to play around with.

[Ironhawk]

I'm seeing a lot of monster-type summons in the list you all are putting out. While I definitely like my monsters, you have to keep in mind that monster-type commanders are not nearly as useful as titan-type commanders in the late game due to the difference in slots. If you are trying to balance out the endgame SCs, you might want to concentrate on units that have all (or most) slots.

[Micah]

Monsters can be great, they just have to be cheap, mobile, and commanders so they can serve as raiders. They won't hold up against a titan, but if you can get 4 dragons for 1 geared out titan that seems pretty reasonable.

[MaxWilson]

Death: Grim Reaper, stealthy, autocasts Wind of Death before every battle. Has a magical scythe with okay stats + cause decay.

And... that's all I've got today, besides reminding you of the oft-mentioned Hecatonchires. Honestly it's hard to come up with new summons that aren't pretenders because KO knows so much more mythology than I do. I'd suggest Lovecraft but to be honest I'm not even totally sure what Shoggoths are.

-Max

[Hoplosternum]

It should be fairly straight forward to do a mod with a couple of late end (Summon 8 or 9) Titan & Dragon type chassis for Nature, Fire, Water, Air and possibly Earth.

I think the really good restricted Pretenders like the Gorgan should not be used. Leave them for wishes or their powers. I would make sure most have limited 'special' powers. Just some resistances - the Air ones being shock resistant perhaps. Rather than stack them up with fear and awe etc.

They just need a small number of magic paths with the Titan types either costing more (or being at 9 and the Dragon types at 8?) or require very high caster levels. They don't need to be as cheap as tartarians or compete with the Angels.

[Taqwus]

Shoggoths are already in the game -- think Othernesses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Not sure that I'd agree that every path requires a super-summon. The problem is to balance nations, not to balance paths; if one nation has a very strong early game with cheap F9W9 but cap-only sacreds, and another comes into its prime during late-game due to summons et al, and another is best suited towards lavish but expensive scales for cranking out high-quality conventional armies during a good midgame -- that seems reasonable. No need for mirror-image balance.

[llamabeast]

Not sure that I'd agree that every path requires a super-summon. The problem is to balance nations, not to balance paths; if one nation has a very strong early game with cheap F9W9 but cap-only sacreds, and another comes into its prime during late-game due to summons et al, and another is best suited towards lavish but expensive scales for cranking out high-quality conventional armies during a good midgame -- that seems reasonable. No need for mirror-image balance.



I very much agree with this, it's fundamental to the Dominions design philosophy. So each path should have a different feel and speciality.

It would, however, be nice if every path had at least some approach to the end game. Some paths just fizzle out (water and fire spring to mind), and if you hope to win a long game with a nation specialising in them you have to diversify to death or something. That's what we want to be fixing.

[Aezeal]

My sandworm from the nomads and genies mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I think it is a pretty nice end game beastie.

Beholders could do all kind of stuff, I couldn't see them as on par with tarts or seraphs I must admit but a bit less strong options wouldn't be that bad either.

wyrm based amphibious creatures wouldn't be bad either (midgard serpent like)

Son of Fenrir like beasties (or other large beasties) could be an option

ow and my favorite.. a DECENT SC phoenix summon (the pretender kinda... ehm sucks???)

Hydra mage summon would be nice too (commander and some item slots)

[sector24]

Another problem (which actually makes Dominions more charming than other games) is that the game really steers away from stereotypical fantasy. I'm sure everyone has noticed that none of the Norse inspired nations have dwarves, because dwarves and elves are totally overdone from a fantasy perspective. I suspect that's also why there aren't as many dragons in the game as there could be.

I also think "fantasy" fantasy creatures (those with no mythological basis) are not in the game simply because they are out of scope. But I guess they'd be fine for brainstorming purposes. So here we go:

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Dragon King Zahhak (From the Iranian national epic Shahnameh)
Wendigo (someone else mentioned Sasquatch, basically the same)
Giant Spider (Shelob from LoTR, Anansi, etc.)
Basilisk/Cockatrice/Manticore/Chimera (These are somewhat covered by the Cross Breeding spell)
Sandworm (From Dune)
Grendel and Mother (although they have no physical description in the poem)
Cerberus/Garm (Giant Dog or Underworld guardian figure)
Leviathan/Behemoth/Ziz (I know they're already in the game, but these are supposed to be end of the world type creatures)

Apologies if I copied anyone! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

Let's rename the Ziz spell "False Ziz" and then make a *real* Titan-sized immortal Ziz with A4 and Str 25.

Edit: oh yeah! Don't forget three-bodied Geryon. Basically a giant with a whole bunch of slots.

-Max

[Taqwus]

Hard to beat a Hecatonchire's 100 hand slots. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[llamabeast]

Responses to jim's suggestions:

Balrog - E/F - demon, flying, fear, heat aura

I guess demons are pretty well covered already by blood though. Not sure we should be adding more demons unless there's a specific reason to.

Ettin - E - Ambi, extra head slot
Cockatrice - E/F - Petrify, flying

These are cool, but already covered by cross breeding. Maybe we could make different versions of them.

Treant - N - mobile treelord, summon ally: vine ogre

I'm quite keen on this one. Graphics will be tricky, but doable.

Sasquatch - A/N - trample, cold aura

Is that just a yeti?

Olm - W/E - mind blast, enslave mind

Nice.

Gorgon - E/N - (really, just like the pretender)

Maybe best kept as a pretender? Just thinking it is quite unique and powerful.

Shishi - A - flying, standard, lightning

What's one of these then? I can only find references to stone lions.

Much of sector24's mythology is beyond me (although this is exactly the kind of thing which will make for a good mod).

Cerberus sounds interesting. Would he be unique? Hard to imagine a dog big enough to be useful, even if he does have three heads.

I like the sound of a Ziz, even though I'm not clear what they are. False-Zizing the Ziz and Zizzing a new Ziz sounds ideal.

Like sector24 I personally am not so keen on adding non-mythological creatures like the beholder or sandworm, being as this is an addition to the (mythological) base game rather than a mod nation. As part of a mod nation those things are obviously pretty cool. Of course this is just a matter of personal taste.

[sector24]

Ziz is "the" giant bird at the end of the world in Christian mythology, to go along with Behemoth on land and Leviathan in the Mediterranean. God will slay these creatures so that the righteous will have food and clothing and tents, and possibly giant foam (leather) #1 fingers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Actually, I believe Ziz comes from the Gnostic tradition and therefore it isn't in the Bible. But the more obscure the creature, the cooler it is to have in the game.

Cerberus allows the shades of mortals to enter Hades, but never to leave. I would imagine him as creature with 3 bite attacks that do 3x damage to undead, probably with 2 misc slots. Is there such a thing as undead-awe? That would be a great ability.

[chrispedersen]

I, for one, would rather see the game become *less* about endgame summons.

Decrease the importance, emphasize thematic elements, and better balance... not as easy as a quick patch

[JimMorrison]

Ahh, I am back, and fed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


- Balrog: Well I only labelled it as a demon, because I am under the impression it is often thought of as one. Honestly, it would be just as well to drop the tag and let it be its own thing.

- Gorgon: I will fight for this one to the end. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif There were many gorgon (gorgii..?) though only one was "famous".

- Ettin/Cockatrice: I've never had great success with crossbreeding, you can actually get such things? I'm at a loss here.

- Sasquatch: Well yes, it's the western hemisphere version of the same idea as the Yeti. I was thinking bigger, and meaner though, like giant sized, rather than "big man" sized.

- Shishi: It is in fact the creature embodied by those lion statues. In D&D (if you ever played), it was called a Foo Creature, very powerful air spirit, sometimes portrayed with a long flowing body like a furry Chinese dragon/lion thing. I was in such a hurry though, it should have Awe on it.

- You could look at Cerberus as "just a dog", but it would be "just a dog" with fire and death magic most likely, and probably size 4. I would have it protected by barghest or hellhounds in combat.

- The Four Horsemen: ... Sector24, I love you. Even if they weren't quite as tough as a Seraph (how could they not? 4 of them will destroy the world.....), they would be so cool to summon. Only sad part being, there's not really anywhere to put them but in Death, or Blood.

- Sandworm: Arakkian sandworms would be HILARIOUS. Give it flight and trampling, to simulate it bursting up from the ground and swallowing people, SO cool.

- Grendel: Forgive me my poor literary exposure, but I've not read Beowulf. However, if the film (it was silly, I know) has ANY grounding in the original work whatsoever, then we'd at least know that Grendel is a hulking and deformed brute, and his mother is some sort of a water demon? Grendel may be hard to conceptualize, but "water demon" leaves something to work with, especially if we go the same route as with the Balrog, and consider her demon-like, but not an actual demon, and summoned through water rather than blood.



Kirin - A/N(or N/S) - Chinese unicorn/dragon sort of thing, recuperate, healing

Chupacabre - ?? - Oh come ON, just say yes, don't overanalyze it.


Hmmm, I'm tapped for the moment, but I think later I will go through the pretender selections a little more exhaustively..... As far as having more humanoid summons, it's really VERY hard to find "myths" of supernatural beings that aren't ultimately described simply as some type of demon, or angel. At least, if they are to be "end game" type of power, else the lesser types have by and large already been covered, ie satyrs and dryads and such.

[sector24]

Concerning Gorgons, here's the short version from Wikipedia:

Around 700 BC, Hesiod (Theogony, Shield of Heracles) increases the number of Gorgons to three—Stheno (the mighty), Euryale (the far-springer), and Medusa (the queen), and makes them the daughters of the sea-god Phorcys and of Keto.

So it would have to be like the elemental kings where you only get a maximum of two; but Euryale and Stheno are immortal unlike Medusa.

Concerning Grendel, he was immune to weapons, so Beowulf grappled him and ripped his arm off. Grendel ran off to his mother to die from his wound. All we can divine from that is Grendel was humanoid (meaning most or all of his equipment slots!). Grendel's mother did live in a lake, and Beowulf's magical armor protected him from her attacks, so she tried to drown him by dragging him to the bottom. However, no description is given so she could literally be anything.

[TheMenacer]

Well if you want to get right down to it, Grendel (and his mother) were descendants of the biblical Cain, so it could conceivably be awesome as hell to have Cain himself show up as a unique summon. Just imagine it, some guy with immortality strolling around beating the holy hell out of things much, much bigger than himself by virtue of his Blood Vengance +7 ability because of course, any harm inflicted upon his head will avenged sevenfold thanks to a curse placed upon him by God for murdering his brother.

Grendel himself of course was just a big nasty monster that couldn't be harmed by weaponry and lived in an underwater grotto, which suggests something big (size 3 or 4) amphibian monster with full human slots, high strength and high protection. Certainly summoning it through water would be doable considering that it was a natural, albeit magical, monster rather than a demon.

Also yes to chupacabre, I think it'd be pretty fantastic to dip into more modern supernatural myths rather than keeping strictly to epic fantasy. Imagine your herds of chuacabre causing unrest by virtue of the fact that they get bored hanging around in the garrisons all day and wander off to eat some goats, imagine a summon based on the Jersey Devil or some of the mythology surrounding the salem witch trial and 16-17th century superstitions surrounding witchcraft. Imagine a summon based on Spring-Heeled Jack (seriously, look him up on wikipedia, he's awesome).

[PyroStock]

If a size 6 Tartarian Monstrum can wear a helm than many other monster-types can be given head slot(s). Monster-types can also be given up to 4 misc slots, magical paths and good base equipment/stats/abilities at an attractive price. There are plenty of variables to adjust so they can compete.


the game really steers away from stereotypical fantasy. I'm sure everyone has noticed that none of the Norse inspired nations have dwarves, because dwarves and elves are totally overdone from a fantasy perspective. I suspect that's also why there aren't as many dragons in the game as there could be.



EA Vanheim & MA Vanheim have "dwarven smiths".
EA Helheim has svartalfs (referred to as "sinister dwarves" in the game).

The ghost, skeleton and some others are very stereotypical. Dominions3 simply includes atypical fantasy from mythology as well. Since Dominions3 takes ideas from mythology worldwide it's not surprising the developers didn't get everything in, like elves (unless you consider svartálfs to be svartálfars http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

[Endoperez]

Water/Earth, Construction 9 or Enchantment 8. Something equal to Machaka-only pretender Colossal Fetisch in stats, but it regenerates like the Claymen.


Or just size 4 Mechanical Man with 40 hp. Enc 0, full immunities, mindless, inanimate, mr at least 12. Weaknesses include being inanimate (Smasher) and magic being (Elf Bane) as well as armor-negating non-elemental damage. It also has no magic, so it can't self-buff, but with full immunities from the start I'm not sure if it needs anything.


Seasonal spirits. Every element can summon one. I think they'd be most easily covered by huge monsters. There's Winter Wolves, and then there's Son of Fenrer. They aren't limited by number, only by cost. Conjuration 9, level 6 in the path, 100 gems. Come with several suitable lesser creatures, like winter wolves, summer lions, green lions, spring hawks/rocs/ziz, whatever. I might do a quick mod, this is pretty simple stuff.


Nature: Look at Kithaironic Lion. 6 gems for 48 hp, prot 18, enc 1, mr 13, att 14, base def probably 12. Give it human slots, Caveman sprite and rename it Kithaironic Man and double the cost. It comes armed with a Great Club, has a bonus Great Fist attack that does few points of armor-piercing stun damage (str no added), and starts with Kithaironic Pelt, prot 10 no-slot armor, and has 50% cold and fire resist. Conjuration 8, probably, and Nature 5 I think. It's like Awaken Sleeper, but the sleeper is much older.
The Sleeper should be boosted slightly, as well. 36 hp instead of 26, enc 1 instead of 3, mapmove 4 instead of 2, and add forestsurvival, rejuvenation and sailing. Perhaps change the armor and shield into something slightly magical, like Silver Hauberk and Shield of Valor, and give him #onebattlespell Air Shield.

Or something like that.

EDIT:

If a size 6 Tartarian Monstrum can wear a helm than many other monster-types can be given head slot(s). Monster-types can also be given up to 4 misc slots, magical paths and good base equipment/stats/abilities at an attractive price. There are plenty of variables to adjust so they can compete.



Yeah, I had something like that in mind for the seasonal spirits. 3 misc slots, no head slots, come with lots of lesser creatures, and have 7 to 9 picks in magic, total.

[Zeldor]

I did read just the first page now, I will have to read rest later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But what we really need is:
- much more universal SC and thug summons for paths exccept death, especially nature should get something
- that mod should be expanding addon of CBM which makes normal summons better and changes some old ones
- summons should rather be expansion of what magic school is
- we also need much much more national summons, they should really make end-game different
- we need to make an increase in spell limit etc in next patch, our new moderators should do that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think with current one we'd get into problem with onebattlespell etc

llamabeast:

Yep, I was writing about treelords in conceptual content thread. But that looks like ages from being done and Better Summons Mod seems to have more attention here. Copy of my general idea:


I would like to see about 5 levels of treelors, at 10N, 20N, 30N, 40N, 50N [all non-unique] + couple unique ones at 50-75N. Unique ones could be those that we have now but with really big buffs. Maybe with ability to use Faery Trod for free, while still being immobile...
All of them would need a lot of HP, big regen, nice reinvigoration, decent MR. On higher levels they could also get other magic picks [e.x. Swamp Treelord with water and death].
The only problem is that you wouldn't be able to set them to patrol outside fort. I guess there is no way to go around that, so price for immobiles should also reflect that.

They could surely make use of 'forest shape' mod command.

[Endoperez]

I tried modding my suggestions, but using Seasonal Spirits and CB together leaves them without magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Any suggestions for the great bear spirit of autumn? He'll be E4N3D2 at least, 200 hp, ethereal, prot 30, regen 20 and will heal his afflictions. And fallpower 50, so that his hp fluctuate between 100 and 400. I think he's the weakest one of the four because he doesn't have any AoE effects, damage shields or weapons, and the others summon better helpers. Would trample and 20 AP be enough to keep the bear competitive in the late game? I could give it some reinvigoration as well, if necessary, and it will have magical claws and bite to use against anything too big to trample.
The other ability I've been considering is huge fear aura, and an undead secondshape to protect him from soul slay. It'd link well to the Finnish peijaiset ritual, but also mean that he coudln't handle chaff alone.

[Amhazair]

Endoperez said:
I tried modding my suggestions, but using Seasonal Spirits and CB together leaves them without magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

That sounds suspiciously like the bug that surfaced in the latest patch giving issues with mod nations. Try activating your mods in a different order, that worked for some people. You can find a discussion of that bug in pages 130-131 of the bug thread.

[Endoperez]

Amhazair said:
That sounds suspiciously like the bug that surfaced in the latest patch giving issues with mod nations. Try activating your mods in a different order, that worked for some people. You can find a discussion of that bug in pages 130-131 of the bug thread.



I know about that. I think it's "just" memory allocation problem. There's only so much space reserved for magic paths, and now it's starting to run out.

I doubt changing the order of mods really fixes anything. At most, it will change the order the magic is allocated in, and affect different creatures.

The log file gives warning when the paths don't show up, but I don't know what this means:
***** Warning: out of spellab

[Wrana]

Considering the king-with-snakes from Shahname - he is already in the game as Pretender with exactly the same snakes growing from his shoulders (called Lord of Snakes or somesuch). Shiva, etc. is also already in the game, though these summons are limited to India-based nations... And certainly Balrog-like creatures are plentiful enough (and it's not "thought of as demon" - that's his author's own words)! The (almost the) same goes for 4 Horsemen: they should be Death and it already has Tratarians... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Dragons would be very good, with Western-type ones having stats like those of Pretender dragons & only 1-2 Paths, & Oriental ones having different pictures, slightly worse stats & better magic (including Astral). Possibly Seasonal Power & certainly limit to China/Japan mythology-using nations.
Great Bear I've made as Pretender for my Bogarus-splitting mod. Fortunately the graphics were already here. I didn't make him trampler, but have given him 2 Paw Slap attacks having aoe 1 instead. I think it would be more in style of real bears... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Cerberus probably shouldn't be very large, but should have plenty of attacks, including some magical ones (I'd think 3 dog-head bites, 1 dragon-head which it had instead of tail, plus some Hydra-style as it had snakes instead of fur on his shoulders), plus immunity to undead attacks (various drains - don't know whether it's possible to do without making it undead), Dark Power - it became weaker under daylight, and certainly Patrol bonus!
Another possibilty is to continue the line of trolls - make a spell to specifically summon troll Moose Knights & someone Bogus-like...
Considering monster Pretenders I wouldn't put too much hope in them: their use is based, I think, mainly on Fear/Awe combo, with Awe provided by high Dominion. As actual monsters they would be too weak without such Awe (and there are no misc-slot items to grant such iirc) & extra hp granted by Dominion level...
Considering Sleeper I agree that he should be boosted - probably getting something like Hall of Fame ability(s) for free? After all, he's considered to have much experience... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I also agree that while Niefelheim has no real SC-gaining problem, they (and probably other Norse nations?) should have an ability to summon Rimtursar! And an idea that Greek-based nations should (at least at EA) have an ability to summon legendary Greek heroes was voiced recently... And just a thought: background of Man's Witches and Wardens says that Wardens are magically transformed by Witches to become stronger, etc. Maybe Man's Witches should have an appropriate spell which either summons Wardens or transforms normal infantry (?) into such? Similar transformation should be useful for other nations too - and is more appropriate for Nature magic than summons of unnatural creatures. The only possibility for this I think would be were-creatures: either some Werebear/Wereboar/Weretiger - stronger than existing Werewolf so better thug candidates (possibly not for every nation), or lycantrope which is also a mage of some skill so can self-buff (or both). I would also include some dinosaurs, but they probably should be resricted to C'tis...

[Zeldor]

Wrana:

Use some text formatting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think that here we are only discussing NEW summons, leaving improving current ones to CBM mod. And we surely need as many national summons as possible. That is really bad that some nations have them while others don't.

It would be also cool to have mod command for setting if set unit is wishable or not.

[JimMorrison]

I had been thinking to suggest dinosaurs (or something modeled after them) but wasn't sure how it would be received. Anklyosaurs, Triceratops, Allosaurs in mid game, and Tyrannosaurs for the late game, could be really fun.

To make up for their lack of magic, they could have high prot (very thick skin), multiple strong attacks, and the spell could describe that due to their nature, when they are summoned they are also enslaved, making them mindless with a 50 morale. Or perhaps the mid game dinos would just be "unruly", so they'd be trained like the predator lizards, and just be 15 morale or so, but big Rex hs to be Slave Collared. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Does Slave Collar counteract insanity? Some of the more fantastic creatures could be summoned with high insanity or Shattered Soul if so, and you'd have to collar them immediately to retain control. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[llamabeast]

I am currently working on Grendel, and (inspired by talks of Ziz) a Roc. Thanks to those who made those suggestions, I am having fun.

[JimMorrison]

Army Ant Queen - N - size 6, trample, poison cloud, fear, very high prot, summon ally: army ants (I'd say 3-4 per turn, 20hp, 20prot, PR 100%)

Vermin - N/E - An ancient hermit who has been transformed into a tool of vengeance by an angry forest. - stats similar to Skratti, N4/E4/D4, shapeshift to army ant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif (with increased stats, this guy should be a beast when transformed), automatic Creeping Death in combat

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez said:
I tried modding my suggestions, but using Seasonal Spirits and CB together leaves them without magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Any suggestions for the great bear spirit of autumn? He'll be E4N3D2 at least, 200 hp, ethereal, prot 30, regen 20 and will heal his afflictions. And fallpower 50, so that his hp fluctuate between 100 and 400. I think he's the weakest one of the four because he doesn't have any AoE effects, damage shields or weapons, and the others summon better helpers. Would trample and 20 AP be enough to keep the bear competitive in the late game? I could give it some reinvigoration as well, if necessary, and it will have magical claws and bite to use against anything too big to trample.



I'm dubious about that Prot 20 on an ethereal being. You've giving him E4--shouldn't he have to buff himself up to Prot 20/25 with spells? I should think even a super-large bear with really thick skin would only have Prot 12 or so.

What's the thematic reason behind D2? I like it in a way because it lets him get reinvig via Soul Vortex, but I'd like a thematic justification.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Because fall represents the beginning of decay...? Maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Though I'd think that ethereal and regen 20 would really make him pretty awesome even with lower prot, especially given self buffing ability.

A question on seasonal power though, I thought it only gave a bonus? It's been some time since I played T'ien Chi but I was positive they had normal hp for the 3 seasons that they weren't boosted.

[Loren]

A thought on the four horsemen:

Make 4 separate summoning spells, each gets one horseman. Each requires a different path so it's *NOT* easy to get all 4.

Individually they are not all that impressive. However, get all 4 in a province and cast a 5th spell on them and you get a *VERY* good unit. (Note that the combined unit would *NOT* be wishable.)

Some ideas on the powers of the combined unit:

It would be a very good melee combatant.

Does not eat but gluttony 1000.

Spreads a deadly disease (like that disease demon), every battle round it has an autocast battlefield-wide enchantment that has a good chance of giving a bad disease to affected units. (The fused unit is immune.) Anyone hit by it or who hits it automatically is affected, they get no MR roll. Every turn of battle would cause them to take damage the same as the passage of a month.

An autocast battlefield-wide death attack of some kind.


Perhaps the fused unit would become uncontrollable after a while or perhaps even the next turn.

[Endoperez]

MaxWilson said:
I'm dubious about that Prot 20 on an ethereal being. You've giving him E4--shouldn't he have to buff himself up to Prot 20/25 with spells? I should think even a super-large bear with really thick skin would only have Prot 12 or so.

What's the thematic reason behind D2? I like it in a way because it lets him get reinvig via Soul Vortex, but I'd like a thematic justification.



I don't know what else to give him. Blood is useless if you only get it that late, and if you got it earlier you empowered as high as you need already. Astral makes them vulnerable to Magic Duel. Water and Air are already available on all three others via at least randoms. It's Death or Fire. Earth/Nature/Fire would also work, but Earth/Fire is almost as closely linked as Earth/Nature. Perhaps I should just give everyone a linked elemental random 2, but that still leaves the Earth summon least magically powerful.

As far as the thematics go, I have some kind of of evil "autumn kills summer, winter tries to make sure the dead stay asleep, spring is necromantic rebirth, summer is all poison and acid and melting corpses" theme going on. Thunderbird is Air/Death size 6 Spring Hawk with undead secondshape and several Great Eagles who transform into Ziz on death. Sun of Vitriol is basically Summer Lion + Green Lion + Poison Aura 20 + Fire Shield 10 with Fire/Water for acid spells, Great White Wolf has chill 19 and starts with several winter wolves and has prot 12 + ice armor + minor Air, which gives him buffs and Cloud Trapeze. I think I'll also give him ability to kill off undead somehow. Oh, and I mean to make them all cast Living X on the start of battle automatically, in addition to the other creatures they summon.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. Well, if you give everybody 9 magic paths they will be more magically powerful than Chayot and on par with Seraphim, and far above most Wished pretenders. I may tone it down a bit in my games. E4N3 is plenty competitive in my book, since 4 is "high end" magic for national mages.

-Max

[llamabeast]

9 paths does seem extreme, but I guess Endo's idea is that they are all uniques, and at 200 gems apiece definitely not cheap.

[llamabeast]

See the attached pic.

Comments very welcome. I'm thinking he will be a water/earth summon (coming, as he does, from watery caves). Also having him be cross-path should make him a little rarer - we don't want grendelkin running around all over the place.

[JimMorrison]

Pretty sweet. Maybe something could be done to jazz up his melee a bit? I mean I guess he does hit like a truck..... "Claw" just seems so uninteresting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Also, perhaps he should get some natural reinvig, and maybe be amphibious, or poor amphibian at least?

[sector24]

I think amphibian would fit. Very cool, llamabeast!

[Ballbarian]

Looks like fun llamabeast! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[llamabeast]

Thanks guys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Regarding amphibiousness: He does like water, but I can't see him wandering around on the sea bed (grendels don't like salt), so I'm not sure how well amphibian would fit.

As for reinvig etc: The real power of the guy is his full slots, which mean you can make up for any particular deficiencies like fatigueing. I don't think natural reinvig is necessarily thematic though, since it's a pretty rare thing in vanilla dominions.

Any ideas for alternatives to "claws"? And yes, he does hit like a truck! My first one got heroic strength, and rapidly reached strength 103! Smackdown!

[llamabeast]

By the way, at the moment he has fear +10 (he's very very big!) and cold res 50% (it can get cold in damp caves). Do you reckon fear +10 is too much?

[llamabeast]

Fear also the Roc! (see attached)

This one will be an air summon, obviously. He has fear+0, 50% storm resist, patrol bonus 20 and siege bonus 20 (drops big rocks) at the moment. Again, suggestions welcome.

Edit: Oh whoops, there's some bugs in that picture, and unfortunately I don't have time to fix them now. Please ignore the roc's armour! His natural protection is 12. Also I think I need to get rid of the repetitious "Such is the..."s.

[Ballbarian]

I look forward to giving this mod a go when it is finished.
(The Roc does kind of remind me of a giant seagull, but I don't believe I could do any better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

[Endoperez]

llamabeast said:
9 paths does seem extreme, but I guess Endo's idea is that they are all uniques, and at 200 gems apiece definitely not cheap.



Non-uniques, at least 100 gems for one + host (winter wolves etc), but only 3 misc slots. That's enough for antimagic and two immunities, but you can't boost their protection. I lowered the bear's protection to 16, 20 after E4 and regen to 10.

I'll lower them to just two paths (levels 4 and 3), at least for the first version.

[JimMorrison]

Endoperez said:
...but you can't boost their protection...



Bracers? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I like the Roc, I see you gave him a shield, is this to simulate him being nearly invulnerable to arrows?

[Endoperez]

How is that a SC? I'd have thought survivability (air buffs, prot 12, 80 hp) wouldn't be enough to make the Roc more than a thug.

Personally, I think the Roc would do well as an A4 mage for perhaps 35-35 gems. That way, A3 nations can summon a Roc, have it make an Air booster, and then start making more boosters. Similarly, F3 summon for F4 mage/thug would be nice. Perhaps a fire-breathing, multi-headed canine?

[llamabeast]

9 paths does seem extreme, but I guess Endo's idea is that they are all uniques, and at 200 gems apiece definitely not cheap.



Oh, sounds like I completely misremembered your earlier post, sorry!

The armour on the Roc is a mistake, I'll take it off when I get a chance/work out how.

Endo: Yeah, the Roc isn't really very good as an SC. He's as good as I thought it reasonable to make him, being as he's a bird and all. He is more useful than any other late-game summons Air has at least.

I did originally have him as A4, but then worried that was too much. After all, even the Air Queen is only A4. If you think A4 is reasonable though, maybe I'll change it.

Very much looking forward to seeing your stuff Endo. Are you doing new graphics, or using vanilla graphics?

[Aezeal]

I already had a Roc as recruitable in my Genies mod.. thought that one looked nice too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif (great eagle look-alike )

[llamabeast]

Is there a downloadable version of your genies mod Aezeal? I can't find one.

The Roc is indeed just a recolouring and slight resizing of the Great Eagle (I made its wings and body larger by adding extra rows/columns of pixels). I probably should have said that right away actually. The Grendel, though, is proudly mine, although I started with a line drawing outline from the interweb.

[Aezeal]

my mod is in the mods thread

nomads and genies it's called should be able to search for that and my name..

[MaxWilson]

llamabeast said:
See the attached pic.

Comments very welcome. I'm thinking he will be a water/earth summon (coming, as he does, from watery caves). Also having him be cross-path should make him a little rarer - we don't want grendelkin running around all over the place.



Beowulf ripped an arm off one of THOSE??!!! Wow.

Nice pic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez said:
Non-uniques, at least 100 gems for one + host (winter wolves etc), but only 3 misc slots. That's enough for antimagic and two immunities, but you can't boost their protection. I lowered the bear's protection to 16, 20 after E4 and regen to 10.



Protection is boostable with Krupp's Bracers (or Bracers of Defense).

-Max

[AlgaeNymph]

Here's an idea for an earth summons: the archons of Gnosticism (http://www.timelessmyths.com/mirrors/gnostic.php). Now what powers should they have?

[Ironhawk]

I like that the Roc has Map move 5. Though the fact that it has air magic means it can just cloud trapezee anyway. Keeping map move in mind for future chasis is a good idea tho.

[MaxWilson]

DryaUnda said:
Here's an idea for an earth summons: the archons of Gnosticism (http://www.timelessmyths.com/mirrors/gnostic.php). Now what powers should they have?



I think they should have the ability to summon dragons, basilisks, shapeshifters, and goblins. And shoot lightning-bolts during combat.

"The world, the Gnostics said, is ruled by the great and evil Archon, whose empire stretches as far as the firmament. But, in another universe, there's another Archon. And he wants your empire..."

Maybe that's too obscure for anybody else to remember.

-Max

P.S. Basilisks rock!

[Xietor]

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/2912f2fe8cf4ba6723a7b17e674b1fbe2g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=wx2ytym1hmz&thumb=4)

[JimMorrison]

I <3 treant.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Hmm... a Roc, hmmm?

With a wingspan long enough to blot out the sun, maybe they should autocast darkness. Of course, with air magic, they'll be tough to get for the races that really would benefit from them, at least the ones I can think of. Shinuyama, Yomi, Atlantis, etc. Still, it might be interesting, though certainly complicated and possibly work too much against it... Though...

Idea 2: Talons. Why restrict yourself to two claws when you have a bird bigger than a 747? Rather, something big enough to carry off elephants, and maybe even whales? Take a penalty to damage, but give it eight attacks like a kraken? Haven't thought out the mechanics too well, so not sure about the idea, but the thought would be that their claws are just so big that each talon is a threat.

Idea 3: Auto-summon in combat djinnis. i don't have my inspirational source before me, but hark back to the tale of Aladdin. To quote a hurridly googled play:



Princess Heng O: I have made up my mind, I shall own this egg - whatever the consequences. I shall use my magic ring to summon its Djinneya! (rubs ring.)

Gong. Enter Djinneya: What does the Princess command?

Princess Heng O: This pagoda lacks one thing. Bring me a Roc's egg!

Djinneya: (flies into a rage:) Foolish woman, do you demand the source of all the race of Djinns - to ornament your ridiculous pagoda? (Gong.) Lo! Your pagoda and garden and your treasure have vanished. You shall have your egg. Exit.




There's a certain national summon recently added, that comes with four companions. I'm not thinking something as powerful, but definetly more numerous. A bird that auto-produces its own raiding force upon entering battle, losing them upon ending the battle. Make them a meaner, burnier, more magical version of the army one might get from hidden in snow. So something that would be threatened by a serious army, but is more than capable of taking on good pd that has some support from mages and soldiers... Disappearing afterwards, they wouldn't help with any sieges, or be deployed elsehere.

If you're looking at the rukh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_(mythology)
there's also the Simurgh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simurgh
The Simurgh is practically written for Dominions, with a lot of its traits easily translated into the game using existing features. Though I'd make this not have air paths, perhaps nature, water, and holy, and unique, with the roc repeatedly summonable, but a simurgh not. She might not be very ferocious in combat, but interesting in some other ways, such as healing, immortality, and some kind of ability similar to Shinuyama's vampire with its sleepy flute. Perhaps some lifesteal to imitate its eating.

I am curious what this 'Ghoghnus' is, especially since I've never heard of it before, and can only turn up four google hits, most of which google won't even offer to translate, but look like blogs.

[MaxWilson]

The Djinn actually gave her the egg in that play? Hmmm, in the version I recall he refused, called them ungrateful and said he would kill them except that he knew it was actually the magician's idea, and told them who the magician was. I thought it was interesting that the Djinn didn't actually _have_ to obey them.

-Max

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I remember way back when in middle school reading the tale of aladdin, and not disney-version, but the peeping-tom verson. Also, the tales of sinbad. Owned that book.

Anyways, I agree, think play took artistic license. I would have linked to the play, but it takes an even more drastric reinterpratiion of the tales, somehow converting it into pregnancy? Anyways, the gist of there being a tie between the roc's egg and the djinni does ring true to memory, even if I can't believe how different the latter passages are.

[AlgaeNymph]

MaxWilson said:
Beowulf ripped an arm off one of THOSE??!!! Wow.

Actually, he just ripped the arm off of a size 3 grendel.
I think [archons] should have the ability to summon dragons, basilisks, shapeshifters, and goblins. And shoot lightning-bolts during combat.

I was thinking more earth/other mages with high levels of heretic, halt heretic, and awe, along with some kind of mind control attack.
"The world, the Gnostics said, is ruled by the great and evil Archon, whose empire stretches as far as the firmament. But, in another universe, there's another Archon. And he wants your empire..."

Maybe that's too obscure for anybody else to remember.

Where's that quote from?

[Wrana]

Considering a thought which was given here - about making late-game LESS dependent on SCs I would offer to include some positive-event, etc. spells. I remember that somebody did include something like that in his mod using #copystats to gain positive-effect ability from existing Pretenders, than making new creatures immobile and non-attacking & naming the Menghirs...
There is also a possibility to include a Mountain That Walked as a Nature summon - a particularly large & wise elephant. This creature was known for his habit of making a regular ambushes against hunters who tried to shoot him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Maybe he should even be a mage - though with research penalty.
Considering a bear-spirit having an access to Death - in North Asian folklore, at least, bear was considered to be a very wise animal, having an access to spirit world...

[TheMenacer]

I'm not even sure it'd be possible to make the late-game less dependant on SCs without changing the entire base system of the game. Look at it this way, on the one hand, yes, it'd be nice to be able to have your legions of national mages not be obsolete by then, but considering the gradual escalation of magic it's just impossible. The fireball that by pure chance smacks right down in the middle of your mages is annoying, possibly altering the outcome of a battle, but isn't necessarily devastating. The earthquake/rain of stones that completely obliterates the entire lot of them could very well be if it hits your main army, and it will eventually. Important units with low HP just don't scale up alongside everything else. Thus it falls to supercombantants or thugs to shrug off hits that'd otherwise lose you five or six turns worth of recruitment and a potentially a whole bunch of gems.

That's why I think every path/nation should have viable endgame summons, because the current blood/death/astral split is just unbalanced. It'd be nice if we could keep the point of each path without losing its effectiveness by late game, but some paths, like fire for example, just aren't going to be able to do that. Fire being all aboud evocations could feasibly have some ridiculously powerful "smack the entire battlefield for a billion unresistable damage" spell, but without something big and mean to cast it, the poor mages who try are going to get a faceful of tartarian.

[atul]

I'd like to see paths keep true to their spirit. You bring Fire as an example, but why wouldn't some Evocation / Alteration bring smackdown even on Tartarians? Say a spell in theme of "brightest flames burn fastest" that targets one unit with highest Attack in province for some 999 points of damage? Or a Water spell that stops largest unit from moving, and if you attack the province on same turn it starts the combat under Encase in Ice effect? Air spell that instead of sending one Seeking Arrows at one commander's heart sends one hundred of them (think of Hero's ending)?

Naturally nothing actually moddable, but with some creativity (read: large enough boom) ideas can emerge for other things than summons.

[JimMorrison]

Basically 2 things could reduce the dependence on SCs in the late game:

First, even stronger battlefield buffs. If there were huge effect or battlefield wide buffs that gave enhanced protection against mass damage spells, and/or made those mass damage spells uncastable for some reason, and/or simply made normal troops much more effective against SCs, then conventional armies would retain usefulness.

Second, incredibly powerful single target spells. I know there are some, but adding more, so there are more paths that have things that can disable or kill of targets of singular power, would make it harder to rely on a small handful of units to wreak havoc.

Personally though, I am against a prevalence of spells that can instantly kill such an investment of time and effort, so I am more in favor of the route of horribly powerful debuffs (having an SC pretender Soul Slain is just sad), but at the same time, I am very much in favor of more variety and availability of the type of singularly powerful endgame summons that are already available. I mean, if you aren't going to take out Seraphim et al, then there need to be more options, IMO. Especially for casters, if things like Rain of Stones are going to be considered to make human sized mages obsolete, then we should have more plentiful late game caster summons. If it costs less gems to summon a 30hp+ caster that is as powerful or more powerful than your capitol only mages and then give them some gear that -might- help them survive, then why not?

I mean, we are playing at gods. It only makes sense that once the little mortals have played out their ultimate usefulness in the war, it's because the gods are bringing beasts and beings of legend into the fray, it only makes sense that it would be so. What this just means, is that currently the range of options in the end game narrows, because of the limited number, so we add a slew of new ones to broaden those options again, and make different magic paths viable to compete at the top of the pyramid.

[Endoperez]

Twan said:
For dragons I had the idea of a spell summoning a dragon egg, then you'll have to shapechange it each turn during a five or six turns, to end with an adult dragon -with young dragon forms before the last one- (the only problem is : with actual mod commands the egg would be able to shapechange each round of combat).



Wouldn't it actually be able to cycle through all of its forms in a single turn? I just tried to do something similar, but couldn't, because you can shape change and give other orders afterwards.

[Twan]

Personnally my solution would be endgame non-SC summons casting powerful battle spells with the #onebatllespell command.

In the spell mod I'm (very slowly) developping, the endgame summons will be spirits with stats like that :

Spirit of Dreams (endgame air summon) hp and all stat (except MR) = 5, only 2 misc slots, but is a true ethearal and has a onebatllespell combining effects of Fog Warriors and a mass Confusion affecting 25% of the squares, also has two precision 100 long range attacks one with aoe 10 false fetters and one with aoe 10 confusion ; out of combat can call phantom beasts and domsummon/summon (a lot of) phantasmal warriors.

[Twan]

Endoperez said:

Wouldn't it actually be able to cycle through all of its forms in a single turn? I just tried to do something similar, but couldn't, because you can shape change and give other orders afterwards.



Yes in fact the only way to have the desired effect is to use a cycle of firstshape commands, so the dragon evolves after each fight (but sending an egg to combat isn't very logical).

[JimMorrison]

Twan said:
Personnally my solution would be endgame non-SC summons casting powerful battle spells with the #onebatllespell command.

In the spell mod I'm (very slowly) developping, the endgame summons will be spirits with stats like that :

Spirit of Dreams (endgame air summon) hp and all stat (except MR) = 5, only 2 misc slots, but is a true ethearal and has a onebatllespell combining effects of Fog Warriors and a mass Confusion affecting 25% of the squares, also has two precision 100 long range attacks one with aoe 10 false fetters and one with aoe 10 confusion ; out of combat can call phantom beasts and domsummon/summon (a lot of) phantasmal warriors.




It sort of seems like giving such access to massive offensive spells would only erode the value of smaller units even more, making the only viable counter to have a few units with highest possible MR, and pray. It sounds like a cool unit, it just singlehandedly renders just about any conventional army into a complete waste of money, or even worse, a great way to buy the troops that kill your own mages off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MaxWilson]

Twan,

+1 to the #onebattlespell idea. A nice alternative to conventional SCs.

-Max

[sector24]

Twan said:

Endoperez said:

Wouldn't it actually be able to cycle through all of its forms in a single turn? I just tried to do something similar, but couldn't, because you can shape change and give other orders afterwards.



Yes in fact the only way to have the desired effect is to use a cycle of firstshape commands, so the dragon evolves after each fight (but sending an egg to combat isn't very logical).



Could you add a non-shapeshift action or spell that calls the next shape? So you have Move, patrol, defend, etc. and another action called "Transform". But you don't transform until you end the turn with that action selected. Or give him a ritual spell that kills the current unit and creates a new one in it's place. I don't know if those types of things are possible though, because my mod-fu is not strong.

[Endoperez]

First version of my monster mod attached. It has four seasonal spirits and one improved Mechanical Man commander. I've tested the units and they should work fine, and the spells appear, but I haven't tested if they summon the correct creature (or anything at all).

That's 4 level 9 non-unique SC summons and one strong non-unique level 9 thug. The mechanical giant has full slots, full immunities and enc 0, but 40 hp and mr 12. It might still be too good for its price (15 gems).

[Aezeal]

I'd say make relatively WEAK Fighter --> mages with a one battle spells.. and then not one that has all those major effects Twan had.. but multiple so you'd have to combine them and they could be killed w/o to much effort

[Wrana]

Transform command is, I think, impossible. Rituals, iirc, will work on any unit(s) which is not what is desired. Though there is a transformation possibility here. I would say that chain of #firstshape would be better, or even making unresearchable #onebattlespell - unless somebody actually knows how The Eater of the Dead works!
We also could add to any of these possibilities some uncontrollability - for example, giving large dragons some Tartarian-style madness & making their final shape a neutral. This will make Dragons a viable alternative, but not a must-have.
A #onebattlespell alternative is cool, too. I'm not sure about it exact effects on gameplay, though. Testing may prove whether or not it makes conventional armies even weaker than SC prevalence does. But in any case I think this is a productive direction to look in. Also, does somebody know whether it's possible to take SCs out temporarily without banishing them to Cocytos? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Twan]

Wrana said: I'm not sure about it exact effects on gameplay, though. Testing may prove whether or not it makes conventional armies even weaker than SC prevalence does.



It's exactly the contrary, onebattlespell allow to use armies in attack, if used to cast spells like antimagic, protection buffs, resistances, etc... before round one.

The problem is more to avoid to make armies too powerful and end with a game where only number of troops matter as they are immune to anything.

So I'd mix the best buffs with effects that may be detrimental (affecting the two armies or even friends only).

[MaxWilson]

The other way to use an army in an attack is to attack twice (once during the magic phase and once during the conventional phase) so that the defender uses up all his gems during the magic phase.

-Max

[Wrana]

Another question - is there a possibility of direct or battlefield Dispel?

[Twan]

MaxWilson said:
The other way to use an army in an attack is to attack twice (once during the magic phase and once during the conventional phase) so that the defender uses up all his gems during the magic phase.



Trusting AI to use or not gems is rather unreliable and this tactic is not usable for the most important battles (castle storming, attack of provinces with lab+domes, etc...).

Also any addition to the game making success relying on something else than exploitation of spell AI stupidity would be good to take IMO.

Mages simply shouldn't use their gems when they are sure to win without (and should be sure to win against about 90% of what is used to harass them in magic phase, and sometimes actually work). Seing 30 wise mages thinking they need to use their gems to kill a hundred of black hawks the province defense alone would rout, or one diseased teleported ennemy caster in suicide mission, is more a problem than a quality of this game.

[Agema]

Shoggoth:

"It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train – a shapeless congerie of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and un-forming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter."

Basically, a size 6 greenish blob of bubbles. Lots of HP, maybe no or low protection. Trample attack I guess (I think they were giant six foot penguins), with some sort of engulfing attack. Bite seems a bit weak to describe it, but I guess it might do.

[llamabeast]

Isn't that a Vastness? Vastnesses are already in the game.

[thejeff]

Greater Otherness I think.

Vastnesses are more about the Flying, ethereal, mind blasting than the trampling. I'm not sure which lovecraftian beastie they come from.

[Agema]

Vastness would roughly equal Yog-Sothoth, who is an Elder God.

Shoggoths are just huge beasties of great appetite and I think dubious intelligence.

[thejeff]

If I remember my mythos lore properly, shoggoths were created by and served the Great Race until they rebelled. The rebellion suggests intelligence.

I still say they match the Othernesses quite well.

[Wrana]

In any case the Cthulhu Mythos is already represented in the game quite well. Except that Starspawns don't fly - probably for game balance reasons...

[MaxWilson]

[smacks forehead] Oh! So *that's* why they call it R'lyeh!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I still think the Mythos might possibly provide more summons. I considered suggesting the Hounds of Tindalos but all I could think of was teleport + assassination, which didn't seem quite evocative enough.

-Max

[TheMenacer]

I'm really surprised that the Mi-go don't show up in any capacity. They might be a little immediately identifiable as a lovecraft property, but there's no rule against having some vaguely recognizable flying fungus beast that removes peoples' brains for kicks, is there?

[Zeldor]

Try to implement Crxyxll if you are so smart http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wrana]

IIRC there is no 'Lovecraft property' as such. He didn't have a so-very-smart son, unlike JJRT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[thejeff]

Lovecraft also wrote (or at least published) earlier than JRRT. Some of his work is old enough to not fall under the various retroactive copyright extensions. It's not clear whether others are covered due to lack of renewal.

More importantly he encouraged other writers to refer to his mythos and there have been many Cthuloid stories written since his death. Many by hacks, but some quite good. Without that it's likely he would be all but forgotten.

[llamabeast]

Interesting. Kind of the novelist's version of an open source approach, I guess.

[thejeff]

It was a different world back in the twenties. He sold to the pulp magazine market, got paid by the word and had little chance of getting royalties or anything like that.

A lot of it was just references to the same fictional occult tomes (like the Necronomicon). And that helped both parties by making them seem more real.

[HoneyBadger]

Othernesses are more like the Colour out of Space than shuggoths.

Shuggoths were basically as described-big blobs of extremely muscular bubbles-strong enough infact to be used consistently as living engines for millenia-so like a pet dog powerful enough to run an automotives factory for a million years by running on a treadmill. They also had the ability to mutate at will-growing eyes, hands, mouths, whatever, but were initially created with no free will-mindless, formless slaves. They only developed free will gradually through chaotic evolution.

So maybe they could be another kind of shapeshifter that eventually turns into a form that can go rogue like the Eater of the Dead.

Before my computer died I was working on a summons for my Fthaggua nation that was meant to invoke C'thulhu, and compete with Tartarians. They'd be size 6 giants with 3 lifedraining tentacle attacks, most slots, and an insanity gaze-a bit like the Void Lord, but with only 1 astral, so you'd have to empower them a lot, or they'd be very vulnerable.

The Wendigo would make a good endgame SC-in Inuit myth, the Wendigo is this gigantic bloody red skeleton that hunts the arctic and freezes people solid that it comes across, and is basically the essense of fear-so maybe a critter with natural soul-vortex, high chill aura, and high fear? It's always struck me as very Lovecraftian, so it would be perfect for late-age Atlanteans.


The Lesser Key of Solomon
(a really good article can be found on Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon

is filled with really bizarre demon princes and kings-nothing like the standard "Balrog" types.

I love the idea of the dragon egg above, hatching and then growing over time. The way I'd do it would be to make the egg itself a sort of "doomsday weapon. It would be very tough but immobile, with a good strong fear aura, so that it would be pretty invulnerable and would benefit a defending army built around it. The dragon, once hatched, would be a rogue-again like the second form of the Eater of the Dead-so that you wouldn't necessarily want that egg to get hatched. The dragon would quickly become very powerful, instill enormous unrest, and in general be the world's biggest headache for all concerned, just like dragons in real world myths are supposed to be-forcing your enemies to consider the consequences of *winning* a particular battle, sort of the Dominions version of the A-bomb.

I'd still like to see a Niefel Jarl on a wooley rhinocerous-that's gotta be pretty hardcore SC.

Speaking of Niefels-how about giving them Surtr as a unique summon? Make him the fire version of a Niefel Jarl and arm him with a Jotun-sized fire brand.

Later versions of Jotunheim could get the giant Bolverk-blind in both eyes, with a limp, and quite old, but very impressive Forging bonus and otherwise decent stats. Comes with a hammer that curses whatever it hits.

Hel would make a good unique summon for Helheim-giant sized immortal necromancer/valkyrie with natural Awe and Fear, half beautiful goddess, half undead hag.

The egyptians had this god of the underworld that was this gigantic snake which had growing out of it's shoulders (snakes have shoulders? *shrug*) two *other* mummified humanoid gods, from the torso up. Seems perfect for a C'tis unique summon.

Also, just because something isn't humanoid doesn't mean it can't have slots-animals in particular can wear barding, for instance. And monsters can be ridden as mounts, also. Look at Dune-if you can ride a 400 meter long sandworm, what *can't* you ride?

By the way, H.P. Lovecraft wasn't the only writer who came up with a unique environment of monsterous/godly creations. Jack Vance's Dying Earth, William Hope Hodgeson's Night Lands, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Warrior, Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar, even Clive Barker's Imajica and Terry Pratchet's Discworld are all excellent sources for artificial mythology. Lovecraft, himself, credited being influenced by Lord Dunsany, M.R. James, Arthur Machen, and Algernon Blackwood. And just about every author of the period: Lovecraft, Tolkien, Robert E Howard, etc. etc. etc. was influenced by H. Ryder Haggard.

And one that wasn't, particularly, Mervyn Peake, who it seems to me drew more on Lewis Carroll-another fine source of myth, is one of the best.

So there's a lot of stuff out there to draw from, that can get us past the idea of "more of the same, only bigger"

And with Construction, we have the ability to create summonable units that fight smarter, instead of just harder. Easily summonable engines of war, as well as field defender units, become possibilities. Imagine a unique massive, mindless, mechanical spider-mech, ala Wild Wild West, which produces-instead of being destroyed by-flying mechanical hornets that move extremely fast and deal out death poison that can drop an elephant? Or a unique Watcher-themed unit that is GoR? Or a unique Electric Monk (ala Douglas Adams' Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) that automatically casts Banishment, and doubles itself every combat round. Or submersibles that produce tough high seige bonus, high patrol bonus defenders, to take the place of PD when you're under water. Steamcannons could have unheard-of seige capabilities, move easily through any given terrain, and transform into artillery in combat, ala Starcraft. Maybe instead of larger mechanical men, they're size 1 instead, but have 4 attacks per round? Or a size 6 unit that does nothing but churn out a constant stream of longdead that have armour and weapons bolted directly to their bones? Or an "iron cobra" unit with high stealth and patrol bonus that can't fly but can reach any land province in a single turn, because of it's extremely high movement-rationaled in-game as "dimension-shifting".
No unstoppable juggernauts, no real SCs infact, but good solid units that fulfill a late-game need.

[JimMorrison]

Some really really cool ideas there, definitely some creative interesting stuff in the last paragraph particularly.

I'd mention though that the reason I was espousing the "more of the same, only bigger" concept, as well as the "just let us summon pretenders" concept, was to avoid arguments about design issues. Graphics aren't a problem with those more basic approaches, and balancing isn't SO hard when you are working with a formula that already works, just increasing some variables to plug it into a later position in the game.

Personally I'm all for really wacky, fun, distinctive summons, I just want to see things make it to the game, and preferably in an official capacity, as well.


Which reminds me, is Sombre's new avatar a prototype for a chupacabre? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[llamabeast]

Sombre's new Avatar is a Warhammer Skink, I believe.

Very nice post HB. I just read the Wikipedia article about wendigos. Very creepy!

[TheMenacer]

I really wish that the elemental kings/queens were better. I mean, they currently have like four paths in whatever their element is. There are recruitable mages that are better at casting elemental spells than the kings of those elements. It just doesn't sound right to me.

If it were me, I'd bump them up the conjuration tree and give them like seven or eight levels in their respective magics. Jack up their stats, and give them some cool #onebattlespell effects. Instead of the king of elemental fire being a sort of tough fire mage that nobody really gives a crap about, he could stroll into combat whipping out crazy high level fire magic without communions or boosters and auto-casting Heat From Hell via #onebattlespell to simulate the fact that the second he shows up everything for miles around starts lighting on fire.

I'm not really sure offhand how one could upgrade the others, particularly given that they should all have their own thing that sets them apart from one another. Offhand, one of the earth kings could #onebattlespell that earth magic that makes everyone take fatigue as they sink into the ground (I think it's earth grip, although thath might not be the whole battlefield version) and the Queen of Storms should probably autocast Storm.

The elemental royalty should be imposing as hell on their own, instead of just the one amphibious water queen and the earth kings being respectable SCs while the others make for desirable casters and not much else.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed about the wimpiness (as mages) of the elemental kings compared to recruitables. I'd like to see them boosted up to Conj-9 and given more magic, as you describe.

Earth could do #onebattlespell "Curse of Stones" and the other could do "Iron Bane".

-Max

[Ironhawk]

I agree that the Royals could use a bit of a boost to thier magic paths. However, giving them #onebattlespells like Menacer describes would be a really bad idea. Not because it isnt thematic - it definitely sounds cool! - but think about the logistics of trying to deploy the Fire and Earth Kings you describe. You'd need a fully fire immune army for the first one and a Relief caster for the second, just to counter bringing your elemental royalty to the field.

Also, you dont want to move them up higher in conj or you make Death even more appealing as a summoning path because it would then take longer for the elemental paths to pay off.

I'd say, leave them where they are. Bump them up in magic by +1. And maybe just review thier stats for any thematic bumps to give them.

[llamabeast]

Information for those tempted by modding a dragon's egg: #firstshape takes effect every round. So you can use a chain of #firstshapes to simulate the hatching of an egg over time.

It'll take up a lot of unit slots though. I'm not sure how much of a problem that might be.

[MaxWilson]

Ironhawk said:
I agree that the Royals could use a bit of a boost to thier magic paths. However, giving them #onebattlespells like Menacer describes would be a really bad idea. Not because it isnt thematic - it definitely sounds cool! - but think about the logistics of trying to deploy the Fire and Earth Kings you describe. You'd need a fully fire immune army for the first one and a Relief caster for the second, just to counter bringing your elemental royalty to the field.



Minor quibble: Curse of Stones does not affect friendlies so you don't need Relief. Iron Bane would be a huge pain though.

-Max

[llamabeast]

You could make modded versions of the spells that only affected enemies. However, at present you can't satisfactorily use #onebattlespell with modded spells.

[MaxWilson]

Well, you can #copystats the original spell and modify the original version to affect only enemies, and then #onebattlespell the original. It's cumbersome to implement but perfectly satisfactory for the end-user.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

MaxWilson said:
Well, you can #copystats the original spell and modify the original version to affect only enemies, and then #onebattlespell the original. It's cumbersome to implement but perfectly satisfactory for the end-user.

-Max




I think his point had something to do with the bug where modded spells gain IDs in different order depending on the order that mods are loaded in. IIRC it's because the #onebattlespell won't use the name, only the ID of the spell.

[MaxWilson]

That's why you use #copystats. The modded version will have a known ID number (because it's the original spell), but the "original" (which is actually a new spell modded to be identical to the original) will have a number which depends upon the order in which you enable the mods. As long the original doesn't show up on the indy casting list and it's not cast by a magic item (like The Ankh/Life After Death), this solution will let you #onebattlespell modded spells with no one the wiser.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Strange, that's very clever, and it works? I'm not equipped for such things, tending not to mod because I am scriptophobic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Loren]

How about a different take on royalty?

Anything the caster has beyond what's needed to summon them carries over into the summoned critter.

[sector24]

Another interesting summon: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/roblon.html

A mobile blood/death/nature treant perhaps?

[Wrana]

I would think it an additional Treelord... but I don't know whether it's possible to ADD one to such a spell.

[sector24]

Unfortunately the existing tree lords are ... unappealing? Yeah, let's go with that. They're immobile, and they do not increase path diversity in any way. You already have to have an equal or higher level in nature magic to summon them and they don't even have a niche use in the game.

I think the fact that the roblon can move sets it apart, and if it granted an increase in path variety (nature into blood or death) it would fit the spirit of the thread, which is a greater diversity in endgame summons.

[Wrana]

One of existing Lords has Death iirc. Though I agree that they becoming immovable also made them quite unusable. Maybe the said roblon and/or something else added to the results list could make this spell somewhat useful...

[HoneyBadger]

The roblon sounds neat. Someone ought to do an Ivy Kings mod that has these types of treeish units in them. I'm a tree-hugger, so it would be great to have a nation for getting payback, that didn't involve anthropomorphized livestock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You'd think the treelords would be Entish? I'm surprised...or atleast, if they're stationary, uber defenders that, say, produced earth, nature, and death gems (one for each lord). Or maybe produced dryads?
I'm really digging this "factory unit" thing-ever since Insectoids mod came out.
Maybe one that makes dryads, one that makes vinemen, and one that makes dragonflies that you get to keep. Just a thought.

Maybe they could be moved forward a bit, in the summoning requirements, for those nations with a strong link to nature?

[Endoperez]

HoneyBadger said:
I'm really digging this "factory unit" thing-ever since Insectoids mod came out.
Maybe one that makes dryads, one that makes vinemen, and one that makes dragonflies that you get to keep. Just a thought.



Nature/Death: Manikins or Mandragora
Nature/Earth: Kithaironic Lions, Hama Dryads?
Nature: Vinemen, Vine Ogres

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, Manikins would be ok, for the death tree, but I don't see lions growing on trees...Hama dryads would work for the Earth tree though-although for Norse humor, the tree could summon a great eagle once a year, and squirrels in combat, and then transform into a dragon that leaves after combat, when slain.

As much as I like the factory unit idea...I don't think they should make extremely powerful units, except occasionally, or in special cases.

One of the things I really like about Dominions is taking something that is, essentially, thematic, and forging it into a working strategy anyway.

I admit that function is important, but remember that this would be on top of what those units already can do in the game.

For the nature tree, I definitely see dragonflies, but maybe the treelord summons pixie (atomie, actually) knights mounted on dragonflies in combat? They'd survive 1 attack that way, and do magical damage until they lost their 1 hp knight. I was going to use them for a Faerie Court modnation, but they'd work here too.

[JimMorrison]

Size 1 Pixie Knights, with a Lance bonus first strike, and 25 AP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Aren't the Kithaironic Lions spiritual manifestations of..... something? They're not actually just cats, so it could be justified. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And even with real animals, free spawn isn't necessary about creation of units, but can be attraction as well, like with Maenads. Unless those Pans are laying "naked lady" eggs, in which case I'll take a dozen, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

JimMorrison said:
Aren't the Kithaironic Lions spiritual manifestations of..... something? They're not actually just cats, so it could be justified. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Kithaironic refers to some mountain range in Greece, so Kithaironic Lion is a bit like "Greek mountain lion". It's based on the legend of the Nemedian Lion Herakles/Hercules slew, and its description just says that it's magical and has tough hide.

[TheMenacer]

I had an idea for a nation of plant monsters a while back that'd rely towards the endgame on immortal freespawn, justified because they'd be tiny little fungus monsters and mushrooms just being the fruiting bodies of the actual fungus (like flowers are to plants), they'd spread spores everywhere as they walked.

It'd be an interesting idea to run with I think, just legions of freespawn that can never actually be killed and because the ones that get killed pop back up alongside the ones that're being generated every turn they gradually build up to completely ridiculous levels.

At the very least it'd switch up the endgame summon being by necessity a single large combatant because while certainly an SC could smack an army of immortal chaff with an earthquake or something, it wouldn't really matter because even if its raids paid off and the opposing player managed to push deep into your dominion, eventually he'd run into a serious army of the little buggers and be completely overrun.

Naturally they'd have to be good enough in the first place to be capable of overrunning a properly outfitted SC in any number, but hey, that's why the things that spawn them would be late game summons.


[edit]
The more I think about this, the more I think it might be a pretty awesome idea. I'm thinking like a 4N1D (because fungi are agents of decay and all) or failing that, 6N summoned immobile commander that's just like a "Fungal Web" (which is what the actual body of any given fungus looks like, an underground web that soaks up nutrients). It can't do anything at all, but it freespawns little fungus monsters with like 8 health and otherwise average-to-slightly-below-average stats that also happen to be immortal. Possibly mindless to keep them from routing when they die in droves the way they're supposed to, but otherwise mundane. They'd have a claw attack or two, and maybe if you want to get fancy something really dramatic like the ability to shoot flesh eating spores all over stuff (simulated nicely by an entangle + poison effect). Plus, I think they'd be a pretty thematic endgame option for the nature path, given this idea of nature being slow, but ruthless and persistent, with anyone trying to root it out having to be really really thorough about it or it'll just pop right back up again.

Given mindlessness to withstand mass enslavement effects, and just barely enough health to take a rain of stones, I don't see why they wouldn't be perfectly viable late game options. Anyone with more experience than myself want to correct me?

[JimMorrison]

Dunno about immortal..... It could work, but immortal free spawns might be a bit much. Now, if there were a summons that took E gems, that could Summon Allies for more mid tier units..... And those mid tier units gained free spawns..... Maybe make the larger units immortal, since they resprout from the mycellium after being damaged severely. The freespawns aren't part of the main fungal mat, so they die. But It's hard to kill off the larger myconids, so they continue gaining huge numbers of free spawns as you push them back.

And of course, there could be a few different flavors, with different roles in combat, so there would be quite some strategy in what you summoned, and how you used your national summons. But if you had some of your best summons doing Summon Allies constantly, you could have an army of mini thugs to face the incoming SCs, and they would be backed by a flowing mass of chaff that is essentially mindless, 50 Morale to really test the stamina of the enemy.

[MaxWilson]

I see one potential problem, which is that hordes of freespawn in the endgame tend to slow down turn processing a lot. So say the LA Ermor and R'lyeh players anyway, I've no firsthand knowledge.

I don't have a huge problem with immortal freespawn. Immortality is nice thematically, but is 1.) vulnerable to dominion push, and 2.) requires mobility to really take advantage of. If you kill a freespawn 6 provinces away from the capital, it probably stays hors de combat for 6 turns or so (depending on terrain). It would be not at all impossible to fight them, so as long as it's thematic I think it's fine.

-Max

[Wrana]

About fungi creatures I would add to some of them a 'Moss Body' as #onebattlespell. Though immortality would probably be too much - or at least should be restricted to just one of their kinds (I personally would prefer to make them regenerating). Another probability is Dominion summon, of course.

[Wrana]

By the way, mykorhyza (i.e., real body of fungi) is actually quite vulnerable and regrows only slowly. That's why when you gather eatible fungi you should cut them near surface, not pull them off. Just for those who didn't know previously... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(So ingame something similar should probably look as something low-hp, high MR & mindless which just domsummons chaff (or not only chaff)).

[HoneyBadger]

One of the characteristics of my own campaign setting-which is decidedly weird-is that their are roughly 15000 separate, unique fungus/crystal (traits of both) constructs that each represent a separate letter (rune, if you will) of the "magical alphabet", and that these reproduce (the reproductions are not immortal/indestructable, although the original "parent" is) over time, causing fluctuations in the presence, influence, character, and usability of the magic. These are then tended over by the setting's equivalent to faeries.

So what I'm going with this is, maybe instead of (yet another) SC, perhaps instead your fungi might produce units over time that autocast each a different specific spell. It would add something different to the nation from any other, it's weird enough thematically for a fungus nation /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif and if you set it up right, would make the nation powerful enough to compete with any of the others, due to their masses of free casters. Balance could be achieved by, firstly, making the more important "links" in the "chain" of producers very vulnerable to destruction, and by making the "chain" long enough that the really good spells-as well as any SCs and units that are very useful for other things than casting spells, don't show up until much later in the game.

[Wrana]

Yes, I agree about this, though 15000 letters "alphabet" seems too much - Chinese has fewer! It would, of course, explain magic being rare... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif By the way, could I look it up somewhere? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Important links vulnerable to destruction seems quite right for me, but what I'm not sure about is a possibility of making a random/semirandom NEW units production under the existing engine. IIRC mod commands allow either 'summon allies' which produces 1 type of such, or domsummon which can produce a few types with probability depending on Dominion.. This can probably include various types, but not with equal probability of each, so a variety of high-end types isn't achievable. They would also become rather common in high Dominion - and if they are free, then their production becomes completely automatic after the start, without any meaningful choice on a part of player... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[JimMorrison]

What you would have to do, is make certain powerful versions possible only under very high Dominion, 9-10 maybe.

When these appear, and there are several types, they can Call Allies, each with different resulting units produced. The "choice" to the player comes in the form of deciding which to send off to war today to defend and expand the nation, and which to keep at home, generating more troops.

Not a perfect fix by any means, but it allows you to tailor your army a little more the way you want it. Of course, any system that uses Call Allies is going to necessarily be somewhat less responsive than a training/purchase system. You're getting what you get every turn, and that's it. Though, you'd get the other freespawns as well.

The chance to get the good ones could only take place in castles, and probably castles with temples. So in the early game, it wouldn't be this overwhelming advantage, it would take some effort to get to a situation where you were really producing powerful troops on a meaningful scale.

[HoneyBadger]

Actually, quite a bit more than 15000-which isn't *that* much, when you consider they govern most of the aspects of Reality itself, in a localized fashion. It's not so much a language as the symbols for the source-code of the Universe.

And no, it's just a prop, nothing really to even look at.

I'd force the player to make meaningful choices in two ways: 1 by selection of Pretender-type. A different Pretender produces different generations down the line. If A: the Pretender can shapechange, then each change would produce a different line, while possibly-or not-allowing the Pretender to go back to original form. If B: no shapechange, or C: if shapechange in conjunction with entirely separate Pretenders, then a very important, informed or uninformed, decision can be made from the start of the game.

Secondly, by making some very expensive National summons, that each produce their own generations, you force the player to spend large amounts of resources to set up their game strategies-taking into account that what they spend now, they'll only see a return on, later in the game. That way, you open up various units to everyone playing the Nation, but force a choice of long term strategy.

Thirdly, as JimMorrison says-if you set it up in such a way that you're forced to choose between sending your producers off to fight, or leaving them at home to breed, that's another good choice, as is choosing between A: producing more weak units which themselves produce stronger units, or B: *just* producing strong units now-that are either sterile, or that produce weak units, which later on will give you diminished returns.

[Wrana]

Well, as I've said, 'summon allies' doesn't allow for choices, and domsummon have only probabilities... Making 'factory units' normal summons - even with some of them from school(s) other than conjuration does, of course, allow for more choices... By the way, choice through shapechanging, while not entirely thematic, is a good possibility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Aezeal]

I think my idea for a brigdeburner summmon (or something similar) ie a squad with several individual not overpowered or SC like units but which together make a decent summon would be a good solution --> like Bogus and his team really.. but maybe with a little more troops

I'm thinking you could also include a leader which generate the "chaff" (relatively speaking) so attrition isn't THAT much of a problem

Say

1 leader
2 mages
3 other characters with nice abilities, bows what not
and 15 strong infantry units and 15 good archers

And the leader creating one infantry/ turn and the mage one archer/turn

Maybe give one of the remaining 3 characters a nice bow and target leaders option?

Or a few mages (probably needed to make them viable unless you give the archers banefire bows (and why not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

and give the mages acces to spells or onebattle spells or regular spells modded to be easier to cast

[JimMorrison]

Wrana said:
Well, as I've said, 'summon allies' doesn't allow for choices, and domsummon have only probabilities... Making 'factory units' normal summons - even with some of them from school(s) other than conjuration does, of course, allow for more choices... By the way, choice through shapechanging, while not entirely thematic, is a good possibility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




Well my theory was that the nation could be balanced with the need for those factories to play a vital role in combat. Perhaps they are your only reliable leaders, or some such. The point being that in general terms, for every 3 of these that spawned, you would want 2 of them in combat. So by putting in varied types, you supply a player with choices as to which he keeps behind to bring in more troops, and which he sends forward to engage in the active fighting (if there is any).

To be more specific, the nation would ultimately rely in large part on Dom Summons. The bulk of those freespawns would of course be small chaff. However, at castles with temples, in high Dominion territories, there would be a chance for powerful caster/leader units to spawn. These units would all have a Call Allies command, and there would be perhaps 10 different ones, each who had a corresponding elite unit tied to them. Not long into the game, you would find combat would be unmanageable without the use of these leaders (at lower level, you would still get freespawn leaders, with 40 Leader, and no special abilities) to bring larger forces to bear, and to support with their magic. So you would have to make a choice, between more elite unit creation, or a more robust army on the front lines. Once you had made the choice of how many of your casters to commit to leading armies, then you would choose between the different units that those leaders could create, were they standing still. I'm not talking about just 1 that does infantry, and 1 that does missile troops, but imagine for example that there is a more typical type of missile troop available, using bows or xbows, but they might also have some little amphibian guys that throw Slime. The balance of those capabilities, or your choice of which to use - is yours.

[HoneyBadger]

Another nice idea to be stolen from Insectoids is the unit that shapechanges permanently from a mobile unit to an immobile unit. This reminds me a bit of slime molds and the way they ambulate. It would be interesting for a fungus nation to have relatively weak but fast units (Zerg, anyone?) that could attack a province en masse, take it over-suffering heavy losses-but then compensate for those great losses by the few survivors permanently transforming into heavy immobile PD supporters (growing into the ground like creep colonies-Zerg again).

[MaxWilson]

How are you going to prevent them from attacking with hordes of cheap indies plus hordes of weak-but-fast units that turn into hordes of heavy PD support afterwards? I'm skeptical that this can be made to work within the context of Dominions.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Well you'd make it impossible to have other troops (other than some summons, mostly later game) with the gluttony/NNE combo. Seems like an effective way to make indies rather useless.

[TheMenacer]

MaxWilson said:
How are you going to prevent them from attacking with hordes of cheap indies plus hordes of weak-but-fast units that turn into hordes of heavy PD support afterwards? I'm skeptical that this can be made to work within the context of Dominions.

-Max



I think the trick here is that since our hypothetical hordes of freespawn are going to be late game units, getting a giant horde of indies to back them up would be a huge waste of time considering the high level battle magic that's going to be whipping around. The freespawn would remain effective in the late game because even though they would certainly die in droves, they're so replaceable that their controller isn't even really supposed to care. A horde of indies that you've spent turns and most importantly, gold on is much more of a big deal when some tartarian rolls into town and kills 80% of them with a single spell.

[HoneyBadger]

I would assume that a nation of fungi would have way too much trouble communicating with independent nations to want to bother with them-gluttony/NNE works here as MaxWilson states. But even if they did, those hordes of cheap, mobile units could still be balanced out the same way any other nation's units is balanced. They'd perhaps have no PD to speak of-which is, for some nations, quite important. They'd also turn into immobile units (as in no teleport), which is going to drain your army, and then those units-while they might be relatively good-are going to only be good for defending that specific province.

If that doesn't work for you, then just force them to change in combat to their immobile form, when the first form is killed, which then causes you to more or less randomly lose mobile units to PD while attacking.

[Lingchih]

Did you know that, genetically, fungi are closer to animals than plants? In fact, some fungi are closer genetically to humans than some animals.

[Wrana]

And what did you mean by "genetically closer"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Considering limitations - I wouldn't say that fungi should have no PD - logically they should have relatively strong PD, possibly with Dominion bonus: they are grown in their populational centers, after all...

[thejeff]

Unless you mean something odd by "genetically closer", no fungi are genetically closer to humans than some animals.

Plants did split off earlier, but all animals share a common ancestor more recently than they do with fungus.

[TheMenacer]

That was pretty much my idea, in my hypothetical plant monster nation, the fungal chaff plus a strong PD were going to make the nation a defensive monster, but mobility issues and difficulty keeping immortal units alive outside of their dominion were going to make them significantly weaker on the offense unless there was heavy investment into pushing the dominion. I was going for the idea that these plants, being plants, grow slowly as a nation, but once they start moving it doesn't particularly matter how many times you chop away at them because they're going to grow back.

However, in the case of a hypothetical factory summon to buff up the nature path in the late game, they wouldn't necessarily be held back or helped out by weak or strong PD, particularly as I'm not seeing fungus as being anything other than a universal summon as opposed to a national summon.

Edit:
On that note, I wonder if factory summons would help out any other paths. Not that I want to see the endgame switched from "everyone has tartarians" to "everyone has freespawn", but I wonder if having an ever-growing horde of monsters would make sense for any path but nature.

Just a thought, although it doesn't specifically have to be fungus that're the end result of a factory summon, it'd be a neat way to shoehorn redcaps into the game. I had always sort of wondered why evil fairies that wander battlefields and dip their hats into the blood of the fallen weren't in Dominions 3, and having them show up as some kind of freaky mushroom monster that has a bright red "cap" would just be tops.

[JimMorrison]

Hmmmm, this gives me an idea, for a thematic way to slow their progression, and perhaps facilitate this whole immortal troops thing -

Make them totally unable to make temples (give them 1 in their home to start). So first, they are pretty much locked in to starting with 10 Dom, if they want to survive. But second, if some of their commanders had auto-temple-checks like the pretender and prophet, they would have the ability to push Dominion in the direction that they wanted it to go. Also, you could give them summons of course that were immobile, and provided temple checks. (I know, I said earlier make the best freespawns out of a fort with temple, but could they just be flagged to need a lab?)

[Wrana]

I am not sure they can be flagged in such ways at all (unless we replace some of existing freespawn nations with them). But the idea of no temple is cool.
Redcaps idea is also good (& faeries CAN be linked with fungi - what is faeries' circle, after all? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

[HoneyBadger]

There seems to be a bit of confusion between "animals" and "mammals" or atleast lower (single celled, simple invertibrates, etc.) and higher (multi-celled: insects, lizards, dinosaurs, mammals, birds, etc) animals.

Every living thing started out as an animal. Plants evolved *after* animals did, and infact were the cause of one of the earliest mass extinctions on the planet when they did evolve, because at the time oxygen was a deadly poison to most forms of animal life. There are still animals on Earth which survive and flourish in anoxic conditions, such as the bacteria that cause gangrene or boccilism.

Note: A biologist I am not, nor am I a geneticist. So I'm not claiming to know for certain, but to my latest understanding, plants, mammals, and higher forms of animals that are related to mammals, are closer genetically than we are to some other forms of animals, including several different types of bacteria, and other very primitive orders of animal, which may have split off into separate families before plants even existed.

[Lingchih]

http://i27.tinypic.com/2h6yet5.jpg

Nuff said.

[llamabeast]

Bacteria are not animals.

Animals basically are only things we think of as animals - insects, birds etc.. There are a couple of freaky exceptions, but almost all animals are multicellular. And even the unicellular ones are eukaryotes, which means their cells are far larger and more complex than those of bacteria (which are prokaryotes, meaning they have simple cells with no nucleus).

[HoneyBadger]

Well, I hate to tell you, Llamabeast, but everything that exists, that we have knowledge of, is what we decide it is.

Plants and animals both have a list of characteristics that define them. If a given creature meets the definition of an "animal", then it's an animal. If it meets the definition of a "plant", then it's a plant. If it only subscribes to the definition of a "bacterium", then that's what it is, which still means that bacteria evolved and split into families over time, and some of those families came before plants, and some of them came after.

Fire, for that matter, meets most of the requirements to be defined as "living". It eats, reproduces, produces waste, requires oxygen. The only things that I can think of offhand that separate it dramatically from every living thing on the Earth is that it doesn't require water and has no cellular or DNA structure that we recognise. So perhaps it's an alien lifeform. Certainly other forms of alien life that have been espoused have been more far-fetched.

I suppose I should have said "heterotroph" instead of "animal", because it would fit what I mean a little more clearly, but it's a little tricky to nail down any specific trait, when we're trying to make classifications of various evolutionary quantities and qualities, over the billions of years this discussion requires. So I say "animal" in opposition to "plant".

Regardless, I'm still pretty sure that multicellular, eucaryotic animals evolved before plants did, and that plants aren't all that far removed from us, compared to several other branches of DNA coded life, on our particular branch of the Evolutionary tree.

[llamabeast]

Obviously you can call anything whatever you want. However, "animal" has an accepted meaning, in the same way that "mammal" does. The accepted meaning of "animal" is, I believe, well-defined.

Using the accepted meaning of words (and we're pretty stuff if we don't, I'd say), I'm 95% sure animals came after plants. If they didn't, what would they eat?

Your fire point is an interesting one. Some more modern views of life see it primarily as a means for transmitting and propagating information through time. That would be where fire fails (the only information it transmits is pretty much a binary on-fire/not-on-fire bit). Otherwise you're right that fire seems to tick a lot of boxes.

The underlying reason that fire looks like life is this. Life takes in ordered, high energy "food" and breaks it down to a high-entropy, low-energy waste in order to fuel the propagation of its own information. Fire similarly reduces "food" to waste, but doesn't couple the process to any entropy-decreasing/information-creating processes like life does.

Of course the viewpoint where life is essentially an information propagation system has quirky consequences, such as self-replicating computer programs being "alive". Similarly good jokes are "alive" in that they are adept at reproducing and spreading themselves, often even adapting to improve their performance (people change the joke a bit and the better version gets retold more often).

[MaxWilson]

I think if you had said "heterotroph" instead of "animal" you would not have gotten the "Hunh??!!" reaction. Rather you would have gotten, "Well, duh."

"Animal" is pretty well-defined as belonging to the kingdom animalia, which excludes bacteria, for instance. If there were fungi which were genetically closer to humans than some animals, even very simple ones, it would mean there was probably something very strange going on with transgenic migration. That would be interesting, but apparently it's not what you meant.

-Max

[Lingchih]

MaxWilson said:
I think if you had said "heterotroph" instead of "animal" you would not have gotten the "Hunh??!!" reaction. Rather you would have gotten, "Well, duh."

"Animal" is pretty well-defined as belonging to the kingdom animalia, which excludes bacteria, for instance. If there were fungi which were genetically closer to humans than some animals, even very simple ones, it would mean there was probably something very strange going on with transgenic migration. That would be interesting, but apparently it's not what you meant.

-Max



Well, I haven't really been following this post for a while, but yes, there are fungi which are closer genetically to animals than plants, in the same way that corals, although appearing plantlike, are actually animals.

I'm an experienced, although technically amateur, Mycologist. I can look up the scientific papers on this, if you like, though I would rather spend my time playing Dominions.

[llamabeast]

I think HB's claim that we weren't sure about wasn't that some fungi are closer to animals than plants are, but rather that there are some fungi that are closer to humans than some animals are. I'm fairly sure that, using conventional definitions, this falls into the classification of "non-true".

[TheMenacer]

This is getting pretty far off topic folks, biology's pretty cool but until the developers integrate genetics, I doubt any of this is going to come up in Dominions 3.

[JimMorrison]

TheMenacer said:
This is getting pretty far off topic folks, biology's pretty cool but until the developers integrate genetics, I doubt any of this is going to come up in Dominions 3.



Dammit, don't burst my bubble!? Anyone remember Sim Life? I want a Sim Pretender who -sometimes- does what I want, as I guide his efforts to develop powerful magic and breed his race of super mutants out of Hoburgs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Forget the summons, whatcha gonna do when the HOBURGS come for you???

[MaxWilson]

Point and laugh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

Actually, that was Lingchih's claim. I'm not the one that started this whole mess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif but I have heard-and generally accept-that certain species of plants aren't all that removed from animals. I could also accept that fungi are even closer to animals than other types of plants, because they have some animal-like qualities-for instance not requiring sunlight as their direct and primary source of fuel. That would therefore suggest-should it all be biologically correct-that yes, some fungi *are* closer to humans than other plants, and allow the possibility of some animals-having split off before plants, or what have you, to be further removed from humans than other animals.

The horseshoe crab, I would think, would make a likely candidate. Someone ought to do something with horseshoe crabs for Dominions-they really are quite strange creatures. Trichordates might be fun too.

[Wrana]

About a trichordates I can agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif As well as for many other creatures... Unfortunately, currently there are no biologists among developers of the game in question... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
About animal and plants I can only add to what Llamabeast said that there are some groups which could be named both plants and animals - these are monocellular green algae/ Flagellata. Of these, some species carry chloroplasts and are autotrophic, while others aren't. This can change even before our eyes. On the other hand, Fungi are quite removed from both plants & animals (using, of course, classic definitions), though less so than bacteria. It IS possible that plants appeared before fungi, but it's also possible that fungi group was removed from plant-animal line before the latter split.
Considering appearance of autotrophy the most accepted currently point of view is that the first living beings were heterotropic and used for food organic substances which were accidentially synthetized in conditions of ancient Earth. Later some procariots "learned" to make their own organic substances: some of them used chemical energy, but others used an energy of solar light - which in some cases have given an output of oxygen that's toxic for most anaerobic bacteria. Later some of them learned to not only survive, but thrive in oxygen-rich conditions, using oxygen for more full destruction of components of their food, giving in turn more energy. And still later some lifeforms began to "cooperate" with others, including smaller organisms in their cells as symbionts - such as chloroplasts contained in many cells of modern plants (this is the most accepted currently point of view). Of course, this is very telegraph-style... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

You're right about the biologists. We definitely need a few in the modding section. We ought to find whichever is considered the "best" biology university (or better yet, two that are rivals), and drop a hundred copies of Dom3 on them. Maybe convince the Devs to donate them as charity?

[Wrana]

Well, Moscow State University is almost ready - at least in my person & some others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If you will convince the Devs I surely will find whom to give them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Maybe that would be the way to get a good Russian nation in the game? Any thoughts on that subject, Wrana? Or do you mean Moscow Idaho?

[Wrana]

I mean Moscow where I'm located. And I've never been in Idaho! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Considering a Russian nation in the game I have a mod in work which splits LA Bogarus into 2 nations, making Tsar troops and Orthodox Church into one faction, while Cossacks & various heretics compose another one. Unfortunately I'm not particularly good in graphics-making, so I depend in this respect on more artistically inclined friends. And the one who I put most hope into is currently busy by the same reason I asked her in the first place... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
On another subject - I've just accidentially bought a trash fantasy book by an unknown author and guess what - he gives an idea of a good mid-to-end-game summon: a really big snail with really tough armor, very slow & with good meat (+some other byproducts which are widely sought). It's saved from hunters by its armor, immunity to magic and - mainly - by an unexplained by wisest among wise ability to activate random magic effects in its vicinity. I don't currently know how to make it with mod commands, but surely looks promising! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was called xarhdon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif