Utterdark : Living With It

[Atreidi]

I had never seen this ritual as a problem until now. I am playin EA Hinnom and the enemy is casting Utterdark again and again. They do not posses the darkvision powers but they are still casting it. I have dispell it twice but he just keeps on casting it. I am trying to summon uints that have no maintenance but many of my provinces' defence is being weakened by the lack of funds and constant attacks.

What would you do?

[Gregstrom]

Given that Hinnom has ample summons with Darkvision, I'd suggest attacking. Maybe use your non-darkvision units as chaff to reduce your upkeep?

[Renojustin]

Dispelling is naturally easier to do than any other ritual. You can just force him to keep recasting it, and eventually run him out of gems. Attrition!

[PvK]

You can also form a team to strike at the source, one way or another - go slay the caster.

[Zeldor]

What? Keeps on recasting Utterdark? He either won and is flooding with gems or you have insane amounts of gems too. Put 5 of your own really strong globals or attack him with 50 tartarians and all lords of civilization you should have.

[NTJedi]

Atreidi... is this a human opponent or computer opponent?

[Atreidi]

Humman Opponent. Hes nasty. I dont know where he is getting all those gems from. Hes got about 15 more provinces than me, (Playing the Cradle Map). I cant afford to cast dispell since my peal gem production is too low.
I've lost alot of territory in the last couple of turns thanks to Tiechi's Impossible AI. Is it my imagination or is my City Defence Points degreasing with each passing turn. My upkeep is always about 1000 and my income only 300. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I would gladly slay the caster but I dont know were he is, nor have I the means to get to the other side of the continent. In addition I have Vanheilm steath armies attaking me all over the place. ;(

[MaxWilson]

Renojustin said:
Dispelling is naturally easier to do than any other ritual. You can just force him to keep recasting it, and eventually run him out of gems. Attrition!



<cue Fiddler on the Roof music>

"Attrition! Attrition!

Who turns day to night
To summon scary beasties
Making bloody feasties
Munching flesh and bone?
And who has the right
As master of the world
To have the final bite at home?

EA Hinnom! EA Hinnom!
Attrition! Attrition!"

-Max

P.S. I can't decide which is creepier, Hinnom or Bogarus. Both of them seem a lot more evil and scary to me than LA Ermor. Fivefold Angel? Brrrr!

[Baalz]

Blood hunting nations do surprisingly well under utterdark. Bloodhunting isn't effected by it, and demons all see in the dark. Use whatever gold you have to just recruit blood hunters and switch to just using demon troops. Depending on your research level, Hinnom has easy access to:

Those national lighting throwing demons.
Demon knights
Devils
Hoard from hell
Ritual of the five gates
Arch devils, Heli-however-you-spell-it, Lords of Civilization.

You've also got those quasi-imps in the conjuration tree for nature gems who are cheap, see in the dark, and work quite well after being buffed by bloodlust and weapons of sharpness.

Ps. Go tit-for-tat and put up Astral Corruption on top of Utterdark. Then stick your tongue out at him.

[Sombre]

Hinnom doesn't have easy access to the lightning throwing demons. They require A2B2. They also aren't as good as the Se'irim for the cost.

But Hinnom has plenty of summonable DV units and demons, that's true.

[Baalz]

A couple of their national heroes can cast the (level 4?) spell and I was referring to the national ones (don't remember the name) who are summoned 3 to a casting so you don't need too many casters. Also, I think they just require one path in air, and with solid air site searching it shouldn't be too hard to line up 50 gems for a single empowering. Over 10 turns a single caster can mass 30 lighting throwers who will decimate most non-lighting immune armies (particularly in the dark with no effective counter fire and easy access to wind guide).

I guess you're right that it's not "easy" access, but easy enough.

[Sombre]

I think the Se'irim would be far more cost effective at killing in the dark. If you get enough of them together they have critical mass too - they just deal too much damage too quickly.

[K]

Utterdark + Gift of Nature's Bounty = total of 30% base income.

That being said, Utterdark is the prime game ender. He only has to have enough gold for four or five turns upkeep and he can destroy all your non-commander units.

[Atreidi]

I got wiped out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif He used the astral teleportation and transported a huge army to a province next to my capital, then maximised the province defence and attacked me from two fronts. I holded out a couple of turns but it was useless. My blue dragon killed Tiechi units left and right but it was no use, they reproduced too quickly. I learned my lesson though, I will not expand so quickly next time.

[Baalz]

I don't know, seems like when I tested this out before units desert at a very slow rate, a lot less than you'd expect if every unpaid unit immediately left.

[Atreidi]

Baalz said:
I don't know, seems like when I tested this out before units desert at a very slow rate, a lot less than you'd expect if every unpaid unit immediately left.



What did you test?

What I am not sure about is if your Province Defence is automatically reduced each turn when your upkeep is more than your income... How does it work?

[NTJedi]

I don't remember Utterdark causing PD to decrease each turn.

If you must live with Utterdark, prepare for most your upkeep units to walk away. Then turn most gems towards summoning creatures since gold income is virtually non-existent. Any gold which arrives from good events should probably be tossed at PD, Temples or Mercenaries. Your commanders will always stay with you even when not being paid.
As Renojustin mentions... lean towards a blood economy.

[Renojustin]

Commanders don't desert, that's one large aspect. If you go with lots of SCs and Thugs, you've got a little more leeway in the army desertion mechanic.

Another reason why dispell is so easy to cast is that every other gem can be alchemized into Astral gems at 2:1 cost whereas if you want to do it for Utterdark it's a 4:1 ratio. There's nothing better that you could possibly have been doing with your gems than dispelling that Utterdark!

After reading over the ideas, an earlier blood economy was probably your strongest bet. Good job, Baalz.