So no Dominions 4?

[Kraftwerk]

Then why the heck are you still charging 60 dollars for a game thats a bargain bin title?

And you wonder why people pirate games...christ...this game is as much as my car insurance. Ever heard of depreciation? Game might sell a bit better at a lower price. Like say, 30 dollars? Considering it didnt cost 1/100th of what it costs to create A+ titles?

I cant get anyone to try this game because its too darned expensive. I cant get another copy so i can legitimately play with my roomies, because its too darned expensive.

Why do you fail at marketing.

Bioshock, that cost umpteenth million dollars, dropped to half your price in the first 6 months it was out.

You people are obviously on crack.

Drop it 15 dollars and youll prolly triple yer sales.

[Sombre]

I'm glad we have a business and marketing expert here to finally set things straight.

There have been numerous articles written on why 'indy' games are more expensive than big name high street titles. Google them.

[Amhazair]

Kraftwerk said:
Drop it 15 dollars and youll prolly triple yer sales.

I fail to see how selling 3 times as many games for a total income less than selling the original number at full price would be considered a good thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Other than that I totally agree with Sombre.

[Tifone]

Kraftwerk,

Even if I don't share your bad words against the devs, I have to agree that I would like a price reduction too. My friends would better like to buy the game and we could organize MP games together sometimes (and the 2 of them playing WoW would probably get detoxified http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif). Even if Sombre evenly pointed up the reason for the different cost of indy games, I must say that the opportunity-cost of a game going for 3 years old and still costing around 45/50 euros is not little. Here in Italy, but surely everywhere, every month 4/5 magazines of pc gaming come out - they cost 6/7 euros each, they give you a complete game of 2 or even 1 year ago (and one of the "big pieces"), all the new demos and patches and mods, and come of course with the magazine itself with many interesting news about the gaming world. That just to talk about the opportunity cost of this game.

Having said that... I can't complain a lot against whoever decides the price. The devs put a lot of love in this game - a kind of passion that you don't find in many games from the bigger companies. Lots of new patches, and enough free new contents with every patch that many companies would have asked you another 20/30 euros for "the expansion". The game also comes with a 300 pages manual which surely they don't print for free, and well, even after 2+ years, it is always the same nonetheless.
And another thing. This game is huge. You could probably play it... dunno, 6, 7 years? with it without getting bored, if it's your genre (and it is my genre, for example). Many so-called "masterpieces" today maybe come at 50 euros, 30/20 euros if you wait some months, but longevity=10/15 hours=one week or so for me, surely less for many gamers.

So, it is difficult to judge. The game has its reasons (free support with new contents and patches, great and nice manual, virtually almost endless longevity) to have the actual price. A price reduction, on the other hand, would be very appreciated now that many of the long-time fans have bought the game and shown their support to our dear Shrapnel, as other people, less likely to spend 50 euros on an indy niche game, would probably get attracted by a lower price and give it at least a try.

P.S. None gets offended please, I tried to show comprehension with everybody's ideas while bringing my ones, and I am opened to new points.

[MaxWilson]

Kraftwerk said:
I cant get anyone to try this game because its too darned expensive. I cant get another copy so i can legitimately play with my roomies, because its too darned expensive.

Why do you fail at marketing.

Bioshock, that cost umpteenth million dollars, dropped to half your price in the first 6 months it was out.




Hmmmm, sounds like proof of Dom3's quality and lasting appeal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(Well actually it sounds like a different business model for niche vs. pop-culture markets. But I'll stick with lasting as the "official" explanation, because it does have that.)

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont understand why "no Dominions 4" on a game which is still getting regular free upgrades makes it suddenly a bargain bin game. Wouldnt that be the reverse? IF they DID announce a Dom4 THEN you might make that argument. Until then this is still a first-run game going strong.

And Im not sure we have any firm answer on Dom4. All we know is that they have a new project. But the types of conversations going on here at the time did seem to push the devs into going in a whole new direction. But I dont know for sure.

[Omnirizon]

dom3 is on patch 17 now.

nowhere else do you get that kind of love without a monthly subscription.

aside from that, dom3 is just better than everything else. if you celebrate the mediocrity and imitation coming from titles like bioshock as "A+"; well then I don't know if anything I can say to you will be of use.

[Theonlystd]

Yes the price makes no sense.. Considering the game is approaching its second year.. Theres no reason a 2 year old game that didnt have a quarter of the production costs of mainstream games to still cost as much as those.

Thats one of the appeals of most indies games.. Cheaper cause they didnt have to hire 100 artists for 2 years to get top of the line graphics..


And i also cant get anyone to even look at the game.. They say it sounds interesting i tell them how much it costs and they laff considering the graphics and age..

[Tifone]

Seems like n0b0dy here reads or tries to consider each other's opinions and reasons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif - The "high quality of the game" Holy Temple consider a blasphemy to talk about a price reduction, the "It didn't cost 50 million dollars" Dark Rebels start their guerrilla, and n0ne tries to better show their points or to come to a peaceful solution.

[Ironhawk]

Eh, Tifone, the poster asked to be marginalized by writing in such a flame-attracting way. I dont begrude anyone mocking and/or flaming him.


This said, the point is still valid. While I certainly love Dom3, I dont think its unreasonable to expect the price to drop over time - even in an indy market.

[MaxWilson]

Theonlystd said:
And i also cant get anyone to even look at the game.. They say it sounds interesting i tell them how much it costs and they laff considering the graphics and age..



Can you get them to look at the free demo? You can easily get 50-60 hours of play out of the demo.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Kraftwerk,

I sent you a PM.

Tifone,

I was the one who mentioned the "high quality of the game." In case you missed it, that was more of a dig at Bioshock than an explanation of Shrapnel's business model. I didn't scream or charge anyone with blasphemy.

-Max

[Theonlystd]

MaxWilson said:

Theonlystd said:
And i also cant get anyone to even look at the game.. They say it sounds interesting i tell them how much it costs and they laff considering the graphics and age..



Can you get them to look at the free demo? You can easily get 50-60 hours of play out of the demo.

-Max



The demo is rather limited in my opinion .

But yes i've got a couple to try but the price is still a turn off. With shipping and handling your looking at over 60 dollars for it since theres no digital download option ..

And the others dont even bother with the demo cause of price..

[Tifone]

@ MaxWilson,

The "blasphemy" thing was just making sarcasm ^^ I was not referring to you nor trying to attack your thought. If you took it as an attack, I have no problem deeply apologizing - in fact, as I said in my previous post, I was one of the absolutely supporters of the "You pay for the quality" thesis.

[S.R. Krol]

Kraftwerk said:
Then why the heck are you still charging 60 dollars for a game thats a bargain bin title?



Bargain bin title? Umm, yeah. Ya know, one of the reasons why we don't distribute through retail is BECAUSE of exactly that. Why are we going to publish a game and have a two week window for it to sell before it drops in price?


Ever heard of depreciation? Game might sell a bit better at a lower price. Like say, 30 dollars? Considering it didnt cost 1/100th of what it costs to create A+ titles?



I never realized that games depreciate. Is it like autos, where as soon as you install it the cost drops 20%?

As far as what it costs to develop. Gee, you ever think that the developers deserve to be paid fairly for their work? Again, another reason not to go the retail route. Most developers rarely even see one cent of what a game makes. Here the developers are fairly compensated, and continue to be throughout the entire LIFE of the game.


I cant get anyone to try this game because its too darned expensive. I cant get another copy so i can legitimately play with my roomies, because its too darned expensive.



Skip a couple dinners going out and eat at home and you have the money for the game. It costs me more to fill up my car than Dominions III costs. While more expensive than other games we sell, it ain't *that* expensive.


Why do you fail at marketing.

Bioshock, that cost umpteenth million dollars, dropped to half your price in the first 6 months it was out.



See my comments above.


You people are obviously on crack.

Drop it 15 dollars and youll prolly triple yer sales.



Strangely even after being out for years it continues to be our top selling game. So what does that tell you?

[Gandalf Parker]

Doesnt the cost of manufacture and distribution go up? Seems like everything else does.

I still think the arguments are not realistic. They seem based on "everyone else does it so why dont you". The game is still a #1 seller so why would Shrapnel lower it? I totally understand why other games end up in the bargain bin. Those are games where I spend $50 and get maybe a month of play out of it. This is one that has lasted years and is still getting upgrades. Not just patching, but upgrades. How many full nations have been added since its release? Not to mention equipment, spells, mod commands, etc.

Wish for a price decrease all you want to and I will gladly join you. But after wishing the rest just comes off as whining.

[llamabeast]

Many games depreciate because the quality of their graphics and other production values are major selling points. Over time these become less impressive compared to other titles on the market, and the games become worth less.

In Dominions' case the strengths never were the production values, and so there is no sense in depreciation. The game still looks bad, to pretty much the same extent it did two years ago. In all other respects it remains awesome, just as it was two years ago. There have been no other comparable games in its genre to make it look dated, and indeed there are still few real competitors for it. So a constant price makes sense.

Also the game has been patched and added to so much since release that in many ways its value has actually increased.

As for it being so expensive in the first place - that is Shrapnel's decision, and despite many people desperately arguing that they would get more sales if they made it cheaper, they seem quite determined to hold it steady. Maybe they are even right, who knows.

[DonCorazon]

Things priced as cheap are perceived as cheap. I believe they should continue to hold the price high given Dom3 is clearly a low volume sale and thus warrants a high price to generate value for the supply chain. That said, I think they could pick up some sales taking it below $50. The marketer in me says $49.99 or $44.99 would be a good price. Paying $55 for a game you are not sure about is a leap of faith. I didn’t buy Dom3 til I got the Stardock coupon that took it under $50 and I am neither poor nor cheap. I just couldn’t get myself to take a $55 bite after having purchased so much electronic garbage in my life.

[Ballbarian]

All I am going to say is that I bought Bioshock with a shiny new Xbox360 for my kids and I played it all of 2 days. Very pretty game. I am still playing Dom3 after owning it for nearly 2 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JimMorrison]

llamabeast said:
Many games depreciate because the quality of their graphics and other production values are major selling points. Over time these become less impressive compared to other titles on the market, and the games become worth less.

In Dominions' case the strengths never were the production values, and so there is no sense in depreciation. The game still looks bad, to pretty much the same extent it did two years ago. In all other respects it remains awesome, just as it was two years ago. There have been no other comparable games in its genre to make it look dated, and indeed there are still few real competitors for it. So a constant price makes sense.

Also the game has been patched and added to so much since release that in many ways its value has actually increased.

As for it being so expensive in the first place - that is Shrapnel's decision, and despite many people desperately arguing that they would get more sales if they made it cheaper, they seem quite determined to hold it steady. Maybe they are even right, who knows.




Indeed - marketing decision of a price-point aside, the value of the product is only increasing with time. Unless one of those big studios with the flashy 3D engines and massive programming team makes a game as good as Dominions as well as adding to it, then there is no competition at all.

If any move were made to lower the cost of the software, it would likely involve an increase in total user cost. The best you could hope for is to drop Dominions to ~$40, and then see all of the patched content (with a special update added I'm sure, to inspire purchase) all rolled into one consumer friendly "expansion", which would cost, oh, say $30.

Are you happy now? Your *****ing has just increased the price of the game, with the benefit of hurrying a couple more nations to us. Thanks a ton. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

<3

[Itchykobu]

I'm slightly confused by this topic. That is, I'm not sure if the topic creator actually likes this game. He seems to want to play it with his roommates, which would indicate he does like it. However, it doesn't seem like he feels that it is worth the price he paid for it....which would indicate that he doesn't like it....

Furthermore, the assertion that a price reduction would "prolly" triple sales indicates foreknowledge of the games current sales rating. Since publishers are inherently interested in maximizing profit, I'm willing to bet that Shrapnel is in possession of more accurate sales figures than "prolly", and sales must be doing quite well to justify the games current price vs. sales curve.

If it was, on the other hand, the original poster's goal to log onto the forums that, at first glance, are used by a majority of people that really enjoy the experience they get out of the game and harass them, then I think that objective has been met. So...kudos?

[MaxWilson]

Tifone said:
@ MaxWilson,

The "blasphemy" thing was just making sarcasm ^^ I was not referring to you nor trying to attack your thought. If you took it as an attack, I have no problem deeply apologizing - in fact, as I said in my previous post, I was one of the absolutely supporters of the "You pay for the quality" thesis.



Okay, it's cool. It's just so hard to tell on the Internet when we're talking past each other that I thought it was worth making sure we're on the same page. Thanks for clarifying.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

As mentioned, things like eye-catching graphics and realistic sound werent ever part of this game. Deep strategy and long life are. Im not sure if dropping the price would end up bringing in a flood of new players the way it would if it were trying for the ooh-ahh-prettypretty console crowd. Niche games dont tend to be affected much by marketing techniques.

[MaxWilson]

llamabeast said:
Many games depreciate because the quality of their graphics and other production values are major selling points. Over time these become less impressive compared to other titles on the market, and the games become worth less.

In Dominions' case the strengths never were the production values, and so there is no sense in depreciation.



Wow. Mod +1, insightful. Production values are of course not the only selling points which depreciate with time (some games probably depreciate as the market for that genre becomes saturated) but intuitively this makes sense. Flashy games depreciate because of Moore's Law. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

[Sombre]

Gandalf Parker said:
Im not sure if dropping the price would end up bringing in a flood of new players the way it would if it were trying for the ooh-ahh-prettypretty console crowd. Niche games dont tend to be affected much by marketing techniques.



You know it's possible to make that point without mocking console gamers. I'm an arcade and console player before I'm a pc gamer and I get a little tired of hearing this attitude on the board.

There are games deeper than dominions on consoles, believe it or not.

[Theonlystd]

Gandalf Parker said:
Doesnt the cost of manufacture and distribution go up? Seems like everything else does.

I still think the arguments are not realistic. They seem based on "everyone else does it so why dont you". The game is still a #1 seller so why would Shrapnel lower it? I totally understand why other games end up in the bargain bin. Those are games where I spend $50 and get maybe a month of play out of it. This is one that has lasted years and is still getting upgrades. Not just patching, but upgrades. How many full nations have been added since its release? Not to mention equipment, spells, mod commands, etc.

Wish for a price decrease all you want to and I will gladly join you. But after wishing the rest just comes off as whining.



Being the best seller doesnt really mean much.. If prices drop could sells not go up even more? It'd still be the best seller but maybe making more money or not.



llamabeast said:
Many games depreciate because the quality of their graphics and other production values are major selling points. Over time these become less impressive compared to other titles on the market, and the games become worth less.

In Dominions' case the strengths never were the production values, and so there is no sense in depreciation. The game still looks bad, to pretty much the same extent it did two years ago. In all other respects it remains awesome, just as it was two years ago. There have been no other comparable games in its genre to make it look dated, and indeed there are still few real competitors for it. So a constant price makes sense.

Also the game has been patched and added to so much since release that in many ways its value has actually increased.

As for it being so expensive in the first place - that is Shrapnel's decision, and despite many people desperately arguing that they would get more sales if they made it cheaper, they seem quite determined to hold it steady. Maybe they are even right, who knows.



Yes but those production values are why games cost what they cost now.. And why new gen console games run yea 60 dollars.

You need an army of artists and designers putting in hundreds of hours. Is the point im making.. And why alot of people having issue with having to spend near 60 dollars for an indy game..


And yes i had this same exact convo close to a year ago.. They didnt seem to want to reduce prices then doubt they will now.. But another year of me talking about the game to all the gamers i know.. And another year without one purchasing it..

[Itchykobu]

I agree with you, Sombre. I have been gaming for 18 years now, and the first real games I played were console (Sonic the Hedgehog, Sega Genesis, first game I ever owned).

It seems wholly bizarre that there is any conflict between PC and Console gamers....both play video games. But, if someone does not like Dom 3, acidicly stating that they must be a console gamer isn't going to change their mind.

[S.R. Krol]

Theonlystd said:
Yes but those production values are why games cost what they cost now.. And why new gen console games run yea 60 dollars.




Actually one of the big things about console pricing is the fact that everyone has to pay essentially a tithe to the console manufacturer to get published. There is also a buy-in just to start developing. If it wasn't for that (consoles lose money on hardware and count on the games to make up the losses and then some) you'd see an actual range of pricing with console games.


Itchykobu said:
I'm slightly confused by this topic. That is, I'm not sure if the topic creator actually likes this game. He seems to want to play it with his roommates, which would indicate he does like it. However, it doesn't seem like he feels that it is worth the price he paid for it....which would indicate that he doesn't like it....



Ya know, I thought that same thing after my first post. He bought the game, and from his forum registration date around the time it came out, hasn't posted in years and then comes on to complain about price because his roommates think it's overpriced...but then shouldn't it be the roomies making the complaint?

[Sombre]

S.R. Krol said:
If it wasn't for that (consoles lose money on hardware and count on the games to make up the losses and then some) you'd see an actual range of pricing with console games.




You do. There are a variety of budget labels that don't just rerelease old games, they include lower cost new games. The simple series in japan was the most famous of them. 505 game street does ok in the west, too.

There are also various console games released at mid level prices because they are semi sequels, multiplayer only etc. Then there are the 'arcade' games on the next gen consoles.

I could go on :]

[Theonlystd]

S.R. Krol said:

Theonlystd said:
Yes but those production values are why games cost what they cost now.. And why new gen console games run yea 60 dollars.




Actually one of the big things about console pricing is the fact that everyone has to pay essentially a tithe to the console manufacturer to get published. There is also a buy-in just to start developing. If it wasn't for that (consoles lose money on hardware and count on the games to make up the losses and then some) you'd see an actual range of pricing with console games.






I know about the the lisencing fees or whatever one calls it to have a game released for the console and that the hardware is sold at a loss.. But production costs,and development time and all that is a factor to .

Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...

[sector24]

Dominions 3 has an extremely high entertainment/value ratio. But it comes with a very high opportunity cost, i.e. you're paying $55 for what might be junk when you could pay instead pay $30 for another game that might be junk.

[JimMorrison]

Theonlystd said:
Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...




You're kidding me, right?

Budweiser is cheap as hell. Why is that? Because they sell well over 50 million kegs of it every year. Does it cost them a small fortune to produce that much beer? Of course it does, but they make their profit on volume.

Take Rogue Brewery here in Oregon, or any other local micro-brewery for comparison. Their production costs are fairly low, they do things by hand, with a small crew. Guess what? Their beer costs 3x as much as Bud, and it's not going to get any cheaper, no matter how much complaining there is from people without refined tastes.

Conversely, if you want to compare price-vs-cost between Dominions and high profile studio titles, you are only showing that you are not capable of making the distinction between what makes the one game good, and what makes the other game sell.

You have lost this argument ten times so far in this thread, but obviously you can't see or accept that fact either.....

[Sombre]

Because they're in a completely different market and beyond also being video games aren't really comparable.

[JimMorrison]

sector24 said:you're paying $55 for what you might think is junk when you could pay instead pay $30 for another game that probably is junk.




Fixed. >.>

[S.R. Krol]

Theonlystd said:
I know about the the lisencing fees or whatever one calls it to have a game released for the console and that the hardware is sold at a loss.. But production costs,and development time and all that is a factor to .

Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...



If I go see a movie that cost $150 million to make and then one that only cost $30 million to make I'm still paying $8 to see both. It is up to me, the consumer, to decide whether that $8 is equal in both cases.

Dominions III may not stand equal in the visual department of a 100 million dollar franchise, but it sure beats most where it counts: gameplay.

[Theonlystd]

JimMorrison said:

Theonlystd said:
Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...




You're kidding me, right?

Budweiser is cheap as hell. Why is that? Because they sell well over 50 million kegs of it every year. Does it cost them a small fortune to produce that much beer? Of course it does, but they make their profit on volume.

Take Rogue Brewery here in Oregon, or any other local micro-brewery for comparison. Their production costs are fairly low, they do things by hand, with a small crew. Guess what? Their beer costs 3x as much as Bud, and it's not going to get any cheaper, no matter how much complaining there is from people without refined tastes.

Conversely, if you want to compare price-vs-cost between Dominions and high profile studio titles, you are only showing that you are not capable of making the distinction between what makes the one game good, and what makes the other game sell.

You have lost this argument ten times so far in this thread, but obviously you can't see or accept that fact either.....



Errr ok you've missed most of my points. Then some how decided who won or lost in a thread talking about a possible price cut..

O thank you Decider of who won the threads. The world is no doubt a better place with you making such crucial decisions .

[Theonlystd]

S.R. Krol said:

Theonlystd said:
I know about the the lisencing fees or whatever one calls it to have a game released for the console and that the hardware is sold at a loss.. But production costs,and development time and all that is a factor to .

Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...



If I go see a movie that cost $150 million to make and then one that only cost $30 million to make I'm still paying $8 to see both. It is up to me, the consumer, to decide whether that $8 is equal in both cases.

Dominions III may not stand equal in the visual department of a 100 million dollar franchise, but it sure beats most where it counts: gameplay.



Dom3 is easily one my favorite games of all. Its graphics stink but its gameplay is awesome..

Im just suggesting a price cut.. And giving the impression i got from other people i've talked the game up to as to y they didnt find the game wroth the price.

[Tichy]

More importantly, Rogue makes really good beer.

[Kraftwerk]

Strangely even after being out for years it continues to be our top selling game. So what does that tell you?



That its a good game in a sea of sub par titles.

Charging 60 dollars is like people charging 10 dollar bottles of water in the desert.

Its not that the product is worth 60 dollars, its that its the only product around.

Fleecing people you are.

Just because people buy it, doesnt mean its a good deal. People spend their last dollar on crack. Does that make crack good? Or even a good value? Sure doesnt.

People would opt for the better value, if one existed, doesnt make any less morally reprehensible to charge over three times somethings value.

Not to mention if you dropped the price 15 dollars or so, so it was 45 bucks, youd sell alot more. 3x45 is more than 1x60. It really does keep people who would buy it (and more than likely end up modding for it, increasing the community, and therefor selling more copies, i'm a former team member of the Halflife Modification Day of Defeat. Valve software (the most successful on the planet) attributed a considerable number of sales to our mod. They even bought us out to develop the sequel inhouse.

You have to compete. You lose sales when a MP community finds a game (which has happened here before) they want to play, but all the members of that community dont have access to the game due to the price. After a short burst of interest, they move on to a game they can all play together.

Im sure your satisfied with the amount of money youre making, but you can always make more, and you can always increase the size of your fanbase, which can only help with future titles (and other titles), a large fanbase attracts more developers as well, as they want to be a part of whats going on.

But basically, its just too damned expensive for what it is. No average person in their right mind would purchase this game for the price it is. Grognards, enthusiasts, previous fans, and people starving for a quality game will, and if thats your goal, awesome, more power to yah Rockefellar

[MaxWilson]

Did someone just compare Dom3 to crack? Oh, my. That explains SO MUCH about my strange compulsions of late.

Just kidding. (I had pretty much killfiled this thread but I peeked back and couldn't resist the opening.)

-Max

[Loren]

Kraftwerk said:
Then why the heck are you still charging 60 dollars for a game thats a bargain bin title?

And you wonder why people pirate games...christ...this game is as much as my car insurance. Ever heard of depreciation? Game might sell a bit better at a lower price. Like say, 30 dollars? Considering it didnt cost 1/100th of what it costs to create A+ titles?

I cant get anyone to try this game because its too darned expensive. I cant get another copy so i can legitimately play with my roomies, because its too darned expensive.

Why do you fail at marketing.

Bioshock, that cost umpteenth million dollars, dropped to half your price in the first 6 months it was out.

You people are obviously on crack.

Drop it 15 dollars and youll prolly triple yer sales.



1) 1 game at $60 makes them a lot more than 3 at $15. Your logic makes no sense.

2) Dominions will never have the wide appeal and thus sales that the big titles have. It takes too much thinking to play it. This means they have to charge more.

As for playing with your roomies, do it hotseat. One copy is fine.

[S.R. Krol]

Kraftwerk said:
That its a good game in a sea of sub par titles.



So you admit at least that it's a good game?



Not to mention if you dropped the price 15 dollars or so, so it was 45 bucks, youd sell alot more. 3x45 is more than 1x60.



And if we dropped the price to a $1 we could sell SIXTY TIMES MORE COPIES, right? Oh wait, 60x1 isn't very helpful. But at least more people would be playing, right?

Why $45? Why not $50? Why not $40? Why not $43.82? So we drop it to $45 then someone comes along and goes, "You're fleecing your customers! If you dropped the price to $30 you'd sell a lot more. 5x30 is more than 3x45."

Why am I getting a sense of deja vu with this conversation?)



After a short burst of interest, they move on to a game they can all play together.



To all the folks playing MP games on this board has everyone shot their wad with their "short burst of interest"? Or are you still playing?


Grognards, enthusiasts, previous fans, and people starving for a quality game will, and if thats your goal, awesome, more power to yah Rockefellar



Hey, who leaked our business plan?

So, you think it's a good game but don't like what we charge for it...that sums it up, right? That's fine, to each his own.

[Kraftwerk]

S.R. Krol said:

Theonlystd said:
I know about the the lisencing fees or whatever one calls it to have a game released for the console and that the hardware is sold at a loss.. But production costs,and development time and all that is a factor to .

Supposedly GTA 4 cost over 100million dollars to develop..

And if anything just goes to my point. You take out the "tithe" as you said.. And you'd have games that tooks years and millions upon millions to make selling cheaper than a 2 year old indy game with subpar graphics...



If I go see a movie that cost $150 million to make and then one that only cost $30 million to make I'm still paying $8 to see both. It is up to me, the consumer, to decide whether that $8 is equal in both cases.

Dominions III may not stand equal in the visual department of a 100 million dollar franchise, but it sure beats most where it counts: gameplay.



Youre comparing a theatre, which purchases a movie then rents out space for viewings, and they pay different amounts for different movies, the way they "charge more" for 150 million dollar movie as opposed to a 30 million dollar movie is to put it on more screens, it stands to reason Independence Day is going to draw a larger crowd than Sense and Sensibility. So S&S that AMC only paid a million to put on at its numerous locations, will only appear on 1 maybe 2 screens where as ID4 that cost them maybe 5 million to put on at their locations, will get 4 to maybe even 8 screens.

Your example is actually proof of what im saying. If you charge 8 dollars for something, people are more inclined to pay for it than if you charge 60 for it. While it might work to charge 60 dollars for a ticket to ID4 and put it on at just as many screens as S&S, something tells me alot of people wouldnt see a movie that costs considerably more than other movies of the same or BETTER quality.

Bottom line, the price keeps people from buying it. This isnt the first time this has come up over the years, and it wont be the last.

The price hurts the community. Every month, someone shelfs this game. If there arent warm fresh bodies, eventually the community dies, and you end up like Master of Magic. A game people DL for free, a decade later, because the community dried up, where the developers could still be getting checks , and the community could still be actively creating mods and purchasing the game, and hopefully, providing an opportunity for a sequel.

Seriously, if you guys arent going to make a dominions 4, why should i even convince friends of mine to purchase this game? So you can retire to florida? Put gas in your tank? Why should we pay new release price for a old game, when a current version isnt being worked on, wheres the money going? A greedy publisher? Solid gold champagne glasses? For serious....why should you get far more than somethings worth.

Its like buying a beer at a bar. Sure its three times as expensive as a store, but theyre providing an atmosphere, and a promise of many more beers than you could buy at one time on tap. What are you providing for the 15 more dollars your charging over the competition.

[Dragar]

I don't quite get your viewpoint Kraftwerk..

Are you saying that $60 is too much because you and/or your friends think its not worth that much, or that Shrapnel/Illwinter are pricing stupidly and would make more money at lower cost?

If the latter, presumably Shrapnel understand the demand elasticity of their game pretty well and have their price point for a reason? They, afterall, would have the best information to make that judgement. Personally I can't imagine a drop of $15 would have a massive impact on sales. I certainly don't see the depreciation argument - does a book depreciate? Games only really devalue when they are superseded by something better, and I'm not aware of any comparable game that does it better than Dom 3. As was mentioned, only if Dom 4 came out would there be reason to drop the price on its predecessor.

If you personally think its too expensive, why did you buy it? If your friends won't pay for it, either you haven't sold it to them well enough or its not really their thing. No point trying to sell Dom 3 to the average gamer, its a niche interest. No-one I've spoken to about the game considers the price an issue, although only one paid convert so far! Either way, no need to get upset over it, its their prerogative to sell at whatever price suits them.

Personally, I think Dom 3 has saved me a lot of money. For $60 it has taken away hours and hours of time I would have had to find other things to do in, which all-in-all would have cost me a lot more! Doesn't take many videos, books, or drinks out to cover $60, given the hundreds of hours I expect to play on this game before I have enough. The only downside is lost sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JimMorrison]

Seriously. My roommate buys new games constantly. Most of them he plays for a day or two, declares them to be the "worst (insert genre or adjective) game ever!", and then throws them at me. Me, I am a gaming gourmand. If it will run on my computer and has a sword or a gun somewhere, I'll probably play it beginning to end. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

But Dom3 requires refined taste to truly appreciate. And, it will require a very special effort to surpass.

Is Dom3 a niche game? Yes it is. Will it ALWAYS be a niche game? Of course it will. Until someone, anyone (I mean ANYONE, Galactic Civ comes the closest in recent times) produces an AI that can grasp a game well enough to give a thouthful player a run for their money - then there will absolutely be a "turn based PBEM strategy game" niche. While many people continue to play Dom3 SP, and find ways to keep it interesting and enjoyable, the niche that it is most catering to, is the PBEM crowd (which I was not part of until I joined this forum). Now, since the PBEM has always been and always will be a small segment of the game, what is the incentive to cut price.


Net effect - lowering price would mostly only serve to massively increase the number of low-brow twitch gamers who accidentally buy a "bargain bin" title, and then spam other forums and review sites with their complaints about the "terrible graphics", the "lack of tactical battles", and how they think it's "still too expensive, and they wished they had only wasted $10".

Now, that being the probable outcome of this issue, the result for Shrapnel/IW is - one time jump in sales, equating to very minor increase in profit due to slashing of margins, followed my irreversible sales slump caused by the glut of negative reviews covering up the glowing reviews posted by the intended purchaser of the game.

Now shush, that's 3 times I have won this argument. The first stage of insanity is denial. Move on to anger or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Endoperez]

Kraftwerk said:
Your example is actually proof of what im saying. If you charge 8 dollars for something, people are more inclined to pay for it than if you charge 60 for it. While it might work to charge 60 dollars for a ticket to ID4 and put it on at just as many screens as S&S, something tells me alot of people wouldnt see a movie that costs considerably more than other movies of the same or BETTER quality.



You get more playtime out of Dominions than out of games that only last for 30 hours or so, and those are considered long. The difference in this case is like watching a decent movie and buying a DVD collection with several movies, or rather, several seasons of a TV series. If you like the genre, you will probably want the DVD collection, even if it costs more, both to show that you think it's worth the price and to enjoy actually watching the series.


Bottom line, the price keeps people from buying it. This isnt the first time this has come up over the years, and it wont be the last.

The price hurts the community. Every month, someone shelfs this game. If there arent warm fresh bodies, eventually the community dies, and you end up like Master of Magic. A game people DL for free, a decade later, because the community dried up, where the developers could still be getting checks , and the community could still be actively creating mods and purchasing the game, and hopefully, providing an opportunity for a sequel.



Interestingly, while this has come up several times there has always been a community to discuss in these threads. It won't last, of course. We lose people all the time, and they don't always come back. There are very few games that last a decade. I can only think of StarCraft as a game that's actively played and created content for, and frankly, I don't expect a team of two people to do as good job as Blizzard did for one of their most successful games ever.



Seriously, if you guys arent going to make a dominions 4, why should i even convince friends of mine to purchase this game? So you can retire to florida? Put gas in your tank? Why should we pay new release price for a old game, when a current version isnt being worked on, wheres the money going? A greedy publisher? Solid gold champagne glasses? For serious....why should you get far more than somethings worth.

Its like buying a beer at a bar. Sure its three times as expensive as a store, but theyre providing an atmosphere, and a promise of many more beers than you could buy at one time on tap. What are you providing for the 15 more dollars your charging over the competition.



Illwinter is working on a new project. It isn't Dominions 4 because the old codebase is a mess. Most of the things that can be done, have been, and the rest are either minor or very hard to implement, or both.

In addition for developing something else, Illwinter is also improving the current version. See here:
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html

Shrapnel Games often holds sales for various holidays. I don't remember how much they take off the price, but I haven't noticed a heap of new registered members appearing after all those sales, so it seems there weren't substantially more sales even with the reduced price.

There's even a distinct feeling in these forums that could be compared to the friendly atmosphere found in a bar, and the manual is very useful, even though it's value has been lowered when new patches have kept changing and adding content.


I do agree that some people won't buy the game because they find it too expensive. People play the demo of Dom3, DomII and even Dom:PPP!!! Why would they play the first version, with horrible user-interface even compared to the current ones, even worse in the balance department, with ugly maps and no mods that could be used even if they did have the full version?

Because it doesn't have a turn limit, and they have 14 nations to choose from.

That, alone, is enough for them. The first version of this series looks and plays like it was released at the same time as Master of Magic. Even with research limited to level 4, even if most nations lose their best mages, even if the AI will be unaffected by the limits and will crush them in a prolonged game with superior spells, it's worth playing. I first encountered this on the Dwarf Fortress forums, so it does take a specific kind of people, but I was still shocked that even the demo of the first Dominions game is considered a good game.

I don't know how much they would pay for Dominions 3. I only know that in that bay12games thread, one person bought the full Dom3 version, after speaking about the game for a while.

[Lingchih]

Tichy said:
More importantly, Rogue makes really good beer.



I like their Dead Man ale. Their Mori Moto pilsener is really good too. As well as their Imperial Stout. All are pricey.

Sorry, I used to live in Oregon, and am a big fan of the Rogue brewery.

[HoneyBadger]

Hell with playing it after 2 years, I haven't even been able to play Dom3 for months and I'm still posting to this forum almost every day! How's that for getting my money's worth?

Mind you, I'm all for Dominions 4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'll shell out 75$ for a pre-order just as soon as they announce it, even if it doesn't come out for 3 years. I'd go as high as $150, but it'd have to wait for my birthday or Christmas or something, because I'm poor like that.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
So S&S that AMC only paid a million to put on at its numerous locations, will only appear on 1 maybe 2 screens where as ID4 that cost them maybe 5 million to put on at their locations, will get 4 to maybe even 8 screens.




Actually, theatres don't buy movies. The business model is more along the lines of the studio renting screens from the theatre in return for a (rather small) fraction of the ticket price. Then the theatre makes a significant part of its revenue from selling concessions.

That's a little besides the point, though, which is this: for works of art such as movies, music, computer games and similar, the price is not determined by the cost of production. Rather, the price is determined by the consumers and what they percieve the value is, and the budget for production is then determined from this. This makes sense, because -- unlike physical products -- the worth of the product to the individual consumer is not directly linked to the cost of production. It doesn't matter if a game cost hundreds of millions to make: if the game is good it's good, if it's ****e, it's ****e, regardless of cost.


Your example is actually proof of what im saying. If you charge 8 dollars for something, people are more inclined to pay for it than if you charge 60 for it.



True for widgets and nails. Not true for "soft" areas such as entertainment or fashion. For some types of products (surprisingly many, in fact), lowering the price can be a kiss of death, resulting in fewer sales. There's a reason why pepole buy poor $50 games from the shelf rather than good $15 games from the bargain bin: perceived value.


Bottom line, the price keeps people from buying it.



Sure, the (relative) high price leads to some people deciding not to buy it. That would be the true no matter what the price was, as long as it was over $0. Don't you think Shrapnel knows the basics[1] supply and demand curve, and how to find the optimum price point? Remember, the optimum price point is the point that maximises your profit, and not your units sold.

[1] Not to say simplistic


This isnt the first time this has come up over the years, and it wont be the last.



Carthago delenda est!

Weeds keep coming up repeatedly over the years too. That doesn't make them flowers.


The price hurts the community.



The evidence does not appear to support the statement.


Every month, someone shelfs this game. If there arent warm fresh bodies, eventually the community dies, and you end up like Master of Magic. A game people DL for free, a decade later, because the community dried up, where the developers could still be getting checks , and the community could still be actively creating mods and purchasing the game, and hopefully, providing an opportunity for a sequel.



If it's the price that hurts the community, how come the MoM community is still dead, despite people downloading it for free? Simple: It's not the price.


Seriously, if you guys arent going to make a dominions 4, why should i even convince friends of mine to purchase this game?



Because it's a good game that's fun to play? Would you be hesitant to recommend a good book or a movie, just because there might not be a sequel? No? Then why does it matter for a game?


So you can retire to florida? Put gas in your tank? Why should we pay new release price for a old game, when a current version isnt being worked on, wheres the money going?



If you buy an Elvis CD, where's that money going? Not towards any new Elvis recordings, that for sure. Does that mean your money is wasted? Of course not.

Here's how it works: You pay your money, you get the game, you play the game. If the game is good, you've got your money's worth. If the game isn't good, you haven't. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


A greedy publisher? Solid gold champagne glasses? For serious....why should you get far more than somethings worth.



See, that's just it. Dominions 3 is worth $55. Yes, it's more than some other games, but then Dominions 3 is better than those other games.

Of course, if you don't like Dominions 3, then the game won't be worth $55 to you. 'course, then it won't be worth $15 either, so that's not an argument. Overall, though, it seems most of the people who're likely to buy a turn based, rough-around-the-edges strategy games do think that Dominions 3 is worth the asking price.


What are you providing for the 15 more dollars your charging over the competition.



All of this (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/2.htm) And even more, that they haven't mentioned.

Simply put: they're better than the competition, the provide more than the competition and so they can charge more than the competition. Isn't economics grand?

[MaxWilson]

Kraftwerk said:
The price hurts the community. Every month, someone shelfs this game. If there arent warm fresh bodies, eventually the community dies, and you end up like Master of Magic.



Heh, heh, heh. And that's a BAD thing? Master of Magic still had active forums and discussion groups 10 years after its release and more. It wasn't selling any more copies, but that's because the publisher had stopped selling it. Not a bad title to emulate.

-Max

[JimMorrison]

Lingchih said:

Tichy said:
More importantly, Rogue makes really good beer.



I like their Dead Man ale. Their Mori Moto pilsener is really good too. As well as their Imperial Stout. All are pricey.

Sorry, I used to live in Oregon, and am a big fan of the Rogue brewery.



You should get the Morimoto Soba if you can, it is -amazing-. Also a big fan of the Brutal Bitter, and their Rogue-N-Berry used to be hands down the best berry beer you could get in America, til they cut it because it wasn't as good as Belgian berry beers. o.O


I like this discussion much more than the other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

And yeah it makes me sad that Dom4 might be so far away that it may never come, but I support the decision, and I'm drooling to see what these two wild and crazy guys might come up with next. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[JimMorrison]

Leif_- said:
...If you buy an Elvis CD, where's that money going? Not towards any new Elvis recordings, that for sure. Does that mean your money is wasted? Of course not...




I dunno, throwing good money away to hear Elvis..... Could be a waste of money after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kraftwerk]

Dragar said:
I don't quite get your viewpoint Kraftwerk..

Are you saying that $60 is too much because you and/or your friends think its not worth that much, or that Shrapnel/Illwinter are pricing stupidly and would make more money at lower cost?

If the latter, presumably Shrapnel understand the demand elasticity of their game pretty well and have their price point for a reason? They, afterall, would have the best information to make that judgement. Personally I can't imagine a drop of $15 would have a massive impact on sales. I certainly don't see the depreciation argument - does a book depreciate? Games only really devalue when they are superseded by something better, and I'm not aware of any comparable game that does it better than Dom 3. As was mentioned, only if Dom 4 came out would there be reason to drop the price on its predecessor.

If you personally think its too expensive, why did you buy it? If your friends won't pay for it, either you haven't sold it to them well enough or its not really their thing. No point trying to sell Dom 3 to the average gamer, its a niche interest. No-one I've spoken to about the game considers the price an issue, although only one paid convert so far! Either way, no need to get upset over it, its their prerogative to sell at whatever price suits them.

Personally, I think Dom 3 has saved me a lot of money. For $60 it has taken away hours and hours of time I would have had to find other things to do in, which all-in-all would have cost me a lot more! Doesn't take many videos, books, or drinks out to cover $60, given the hundreds of hours I expect to play on this game before I have enough. The only downside is lost sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Yes a book depreciates, though considering the rate, if you dont consider inflation it looks like books go up in price. Picked up a Harlan Ellison, 'I, Robot' the other day with a cover price of 1.35 in 1971, just a small paperback, and i bought it for 3.50. Inflation would put it about 6 or 7 bucks, so it certainly depreciates. Age depreciates just about everything. Besides wine and women.


And its both, its both too expensive for people i know to shell out on something that at first or second glance is an obvious pass. I passed for quite a while myself, and ill admit, i didnt get dominions 2 the best of ways, but it prompted me to purchase dominions 3. Now I dont advocate doing the same thing for friends of mine, but i know theyd like the game if they actually played it for a while, but all of them cant physically sit at my computer for a few hours getting into it. They have to buy it, or "try it", and 60 dollars is a bit steep of an investment in a video game thats not an advertised A+ title. You know what youre getting 30 hours of when you buy Bioshock, or Oblivion, or Diablo III when that comes out. You know youre going to get a quality title.

Its not exactly enticing new customers at the current price tag.

[Omnirizon]

the people who buy dominions do so because their tired of wandering a world of "next craze next phase next nothing new" games that makes up quality titles like Bio "rip-off system shock" shock, Obli "same impoverished RPG models" vion, or Dia "beat a dead horse some more" blo III.

The people who buy Dominions do so because they crave its uniqueness and personality.

The people who buy Bioshock do so because they crave the warm familiar feeling of sitting in a warm pile of [censored]; they've been trained by society and media to enjoy and celebrate the same ole [censored].

[Kraftwerk]

So you admit at least that it's a good game?





Of course its a great game, but I can throw away more money than the average joe on a risk. And I had to throw away what to most people is a fair price at best for games that are considerably better developed. If you care about where your money goes after it leaves your hands, and yeah i know, most consumers are idiots, doesnt mean we all are, then you think about what the costs break down to...if you know a game that costs millions to produce (though it breaks down to several dollars a produced copy), sells at 50 dollars a piece, you would expect, much like every other market on other, that if the production cost of an item is less than millions, to cost less as a result.



And if we dropped the price to a $1 we could sell SIXTY TIMES MORE COPIES, right? Oh wait, 60x1 isn't very helpful. But at least more people would be playing, right?


Why $45? Why not $50? Why not $40? Why not $43.82? So we drop it to $45 then someone comes along and goes, "You're fleecing your customers! If you dropped the price to $30 you'd sell a lot more. 5x30 is more than 3x45."



Why be the only company that sells a product for 20% more than everyone else on earth? From paradox, to malfador, their prices are reasonable, what makes you different. Why are people paying an extra 15-25 dollars more for your game, than any other game in the same category, independant 4x games.

Paradoxs EU3 is already cheaper.

And its 3d.




Hey, who leaked our business plan?

So, you think it's a good game but don't like what we charge for it...that sums it up, right? That's fine, to each his own.



Youre like starbucks (who is failing miserably now). Theres no actual reason that your product costs more than the exact same product elsewhere, youre just smug. A good idea, implemented into a consumer base in the richest country on earth, internetonia, priced for maximum profit, without any consideration to the actual value of the product.

When this recession sets in more, youll drop your prices, because no one will be buying frivilous entertainment. Might as well have a nice large community base on which to sell budget expansions too.

You guys make so many patches with new content, you should consider going on steam, selling the game for vastly cheaper, and sell the patches as episodic content.

[Lingchih]

Hey, hey Omni, lay off. Bioshock is an extremely good game, and in a totally different genre.

[Edi]

If I compare value for money of the Dominions franchise to anything else I own on the gaming side, it's no contest. Dominions wipes the floor with everything else, though some other games I have played a lot and still play. I've bought every Dominions game and never been disappointed. Sure, I have my own gripes about some stuff and I haven't exactly been quiet (which is why I got put in charge of managing the bug reports), but in the end those gripes are minor. The price is not one of the sticking points for me.

Considering how much time I've spent playing the game and fiddling with it, $60 is nothing. I'd pay that in euros for this game, which would be $90 or more at current rates of exchange. I've got games I paid an equal amount for and didn't play a lot at all.

As far as the community goes, there is a fairly good amount of permanence here, as far as permanence wrt any game goes. That's because currently there is nothing that can hold a candle to Dominions in the turn based strategy genre. Notto mention that if you do fork over the 60 bucks for Dominions 3, not only do you get the game and the manual, you will also be able to use all the stuff that has been provided here for free. Which is a damn lot for an indie game, I should say. As someone who has actually made a lot of that free stuff, I can say that making it has also been fun, though frustrating at times. Been part of the value for money I've gotten for Dom3, the exploration.

As far as the Shrapnel Games decision to charge $55, that's theirs to make. They have all the data on how many copies they sell, what it costs to produce and they have comparison data from a lot of other things. They have been successful in this business for years, so they know what they are doing. If Dominions 3 is going to drop in price, it'll probably only be to $49 to cross the psychological barrier DonCorazon was talking about, but it certainly won't come down from that.

There is also the thing that lowering prices to bargain bin levels is what the mainstream games do because they have a market of tens of millions of users. Dominions does not, so lowering the price significantly is not going to recoup the costs. The people who are interested in this kind of game are generally willing to pay the $45 to $55 (that's counting periodic discounts) for it and they will usually feel they are getting their money's worth. Not everyone, but then, there is always someone who is disappointed.

[Kraftwerk]

The MoM community is alive and kicking, theres multiple clones in the works, as well as mods and new strategy guides and a user improvement patch.

Games like Master of Magic, Jagged Alliance 2, that didnt receive much commercial success at the time, are now shining examples of how the pirate community actually helps the pc game community. Besides pc gaming being a for profit business, its also a part of history, and a community as a whole thats seperate, but equal, to the console gamer or board gamer community. A nod given to preservation of this community, as the galactic civs guys did by not using copy protection, or valves contribution of steam, have only helped their products fly off the shelves. Concern with art and customer satisfaction as a first and formost helps those products sell.

Games where the companies at the time either didnt market them correctly, or at all in some cases, that were quality pieces of work, have been resurrected by the warez and pirate communities not only as pieces of nostalgia (heck i think they still actually try and sell jagged alliance 2) but as new games with user created fix'it'up patches and sometimes, entire new campaigns, gamemodes, expansions, etc.

Now if the makers of these games had the insight companies like iD and epic had back then, to spend the money splattering cheap demo discs all over every electronics store in every major city, and allowed a mod community access to as much of the game as they needed to completely alter the gameplay, theyd have games that were commercial successes like Doom and Duke.

Those titles were developed on the cheap, in garages, just like this one.

There is nothing different in terms of quality between this, and doom, or hexen, or any other smashing commercial success.

The difference is availability, this isnt in stores, visibility, its an old game, it isnt being reviewed anymore, not alot you can do about that, especially if you dont actively seek out press, and lastly, cost, doom, cost you a few dollars for the first episode, and 30 dollars for the rest of the game, unless you had BBB access, you got the first episode free. Then you had the option eventually to purchase the box in stores (episodic content, multiple releases in various mediums?! omg they used ideas from the two largest commercial marketing successes in the entertainment industry, george lucas and everything starwars, how many versions of those movies are there? the fans just buy every one of them even tho they already have one, and this one adds like 4 new seconds of film, and valve, with the steam system for delivering episodic content.

The price, the marketing, the availability, its all the stone age with you guys.

[Kraftwerk]

Omnirizon said:
the people who buy dominions do so because their tired of wandering a world of "next craze next phase next nothing new" games that makes up quality titles like Bio "rip-off system shock" shock, Obli "same impoverished RPG models" vion, or Dia "beat a dead horse some more" blo III.

The people who buy Dominions do so because they crave its uniqueness and personality.

The people who buy Bioshock do so because they crave the warm familiar feeling of sitting in a warm pile of [censored]; they've been trained by society and media to enjoy and celebrate the same ole [censored].



Uh Warren Spector, who made system shock, made bioshock. It was basically the whole looking glass crew.

It wasnt a rip off, it was sort of a sequel/pre-quel/alternate reality

The simularities are intentional.

Ever play Dues Ex? Same thing. Spector loves his inventory managing FPSs

Both are great games.

And system shock suffered from too high a price for an unknown title as well. I bought it, but i remember it took all my christmas money as a kid heh.

[JimMorrison]

God I am not even going to bother quoting you this time. Kraftwerk, it makes me sad that you used such a cool name, because you truly are utterly clueless. It's like you're going through some crappy economics course in a community college, from a guy who thinks the biggest favor that he can do for you is to plug you in to the mainstream economy with both feet on the ground.

I hate to break it to you, but first off, Dominions (as has been stated earlier) is in fact, art. It is not a chair that you pay materials+ for, it is conceptual expression, and you will pay whatever it is worth to you, or not. If your friends won't try the demo to see if they want to buy it, then there is no reason whatsoever to assume that lowering the price will in fact incentivize them.

I'm going to skip your blather about cheaper indie titles, did it ever occur to you that they HAD to lower prices to stimulate sales, whereas you are being told by all comers that Dominions in fact does NOT have to lower prices to stimulate sales?

Then we get to the Starbucks fallacy. You're actually eroding your own argument here, and you don't even realize it. You see, Starbucks is Bioshock, and Oblivion. Dominions, is the little coffee shop up the block from your house, with the amazing pastries. You see, in the world of coffee, people are starting to turn away from the mass produced "lowest common denominator" garbage. Coffee (read: espresso) drinkers (I am one of them) are snobs, and Starbucks isn't cool enough anymore. Dominions players tend to be a bit snobby as well (though we hide it here, since we're all the cream at the top http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), and it's only a matter of time before you grow up and you realize that all the mass marketed media that you're gorging on, really isn't very substantial. Somewhere around the time you realize you should come back here and apologize for stinking up the boards, your buddies will just buy the damned game for $60.

That is, if you're not working overtime every week as a dishwasher to support your 19 year old wife and three kids.

Now see, I promised myself I wouldn't get nasty, and look what you made come out of my fingers..... < sigh >

[Kraftwerk]

Then we get to the Starbucks fallacy. You're actually eroding your own argument here, and you don't even realize it. You see, Starbucks is Bioshock, and Oblivion. Dominions, is the little coffee shop up the block from your house, with the amazing pastries. You see, in the world of coffee, people are starting to turn away from the mass produced "lowest common denominator" garbage. Coffee (read: espresso) drinkers (I am one of them) are snobs, and Starbucks isn't cool enough anymore. Dominions players tend to be a bit snobby as well (though we hide it here, since we're all the cream at the top http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), and it's only a matter of time before you grow up and you realize that all the mass marketed media that you're gorging on, really isn't very substantial. Somewhere around the time you realize you should come back here and apologize for stinking up the boards, your buddies will just buy the damned game for $60.

That is, if you're not working overtime every week as a dishwasher to support your 19 year old wife and three kids.

Now see, I promised myself I wouldn't get nasty, and look what you made come out of my fingers..... < sigh >





But at the local coffee shop, coffee is 15 cents a cup. At starbucks its 6 friggin dollars. So I dont get that. And shove the high and mighty mass media this and that, ma and pop mumbo jumbo, everything is mass media, this forum, the shirts you wear, the car you drive, the billboards you pass by, youre just as bombarded by it, and involved in its proliferation as anyone you want to point fingers at.

Fact is, the coffee in the cup is the same coffee. The bits and bytes are the same in every piece of software. You dont want to be subjected to scrutiny against mass produced products? Dont compete in a free market. Lifes tough, the markets are harsh, and the lowest common denominator at the end of the day, is where the bargain is, and in a world increasingly wary of spending its dollar, the lower common denominator is whats going to sell.

You dont pay out the wazoo for a print of a painting, theyre all about the same regardless of the artistic content.

For someone who apparently likes Kraftwerk, youd think youd know abit more about (or like) Andy Warhols POP! movement that kraftwerk was a result of. You can mass produce art and sell it for a reasonable price.

You dont have to be snobby smug intellectual to appreaciate it either. You can be a plain plum dumb consumer, and have just as much right to purchase a product at a reasonable price as anyone else, regardless of your level of appreciation.

Art is a product.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
The MoM community is alive and kicking,



Would Sir please make up Sir's mind? First the MoM community dried up because people weren't buying the game any more, and now it's alive and kicking because people aren't buying the game any more. You simply can't have it both ways. Real life isn't like Dominions: there's actually a limit to the good stuff.



Concern with art and customer satisfaction as a first and formost helps those products sell.



Dominions 3 is selling and selling well. The Dominions 3 community is alive and thriving. Those are the fact of the matter; they won't go away just because they're inconvenient to your argument.


The difference is availability, this isnt in stores, visibility, its an old game, it isnt being reviewed anymore,



E pur si muove. And yet it sells. Funny, that.


The price, the marketing, the availability, its all the stone age with you guys.



And yet it sells.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
Fact is, the coffee in the cup is the same coffee.



That's like saying that the games produces by EA Games and Sid Meier are the same games. It's quite simply not the case.


For someone who apparently likes Kraftwerk, youd think youd know abit more about (or like) Andy Warhols POP! movement that kraftwerk was a result of. You can mass produce art and sell it for a reasonable price.



An Andy Warhol print is going to cost you a lot more than a copy of Dominions 3, even though there's gone more time and work into making Dominions 3. So what was your point again?


Art is a product.



But it's a product where there's no obvious relationship between the cost of manufacture and the value of the finished product.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:
Why are people paying an extra 15-25 dollars more for your game, than any other game in the same category, independant 4x games.



Why indeed. Careful, Kraftwerk. You're precariously close to starting down on the road to wisdom.

[Dragar]

Kraftwerk,

Agreed that Dom 3 will never be a mass market game without lower pricing, advertising, publicity, better production values etc. The thing is, with a game like this, it would unlikely be a big hit anyway, the learning curve is too great, it's too slow and not visual enough for a typical consumer.

Illwinter and shrapnel could put in a lot of time and money and get a cheaper, better produced game out to a lot of people, but would the increase in revenue cover the costs and the extra time? Remember that the Illwinter guys develop in their spare time. To hit the mainstream Dom 3 would need a major rework in terms of production, graphics and SP playability, and then a heap of promotional activity.

From their (and shrapnel's) point of view, a cheap to produce game is still pulling in decent revenues at moderate sales with high mark-up two years after release... what's not to like? It’s a nice cash cow building a loyal base while they develop their next product. If in the future they want to take it more seriously they can build Dom 4 and launch it, with a ready made community to test, troubleshoot, create map/scenario content and help drive it.

I'm also guessing that Illwinter get a larger piece of the pie than if they went through a major developer.

From Shrapnel's point of view its even sweeter - as their biggest selling product it must be giving them a lot of their new customers and developers, with follow through to other game sales.

Bigger isn't always more profitable, high margins on moderate sales with low cost is a perfectly acceptable business model.

[JimMorrison]

No, it's not 15 cents a cup. It's espresso, people don't go to those shops to save money, they go there because it's NOT the same coffee, and it's NOT the same assembly line atmosphere.

Am I bombarded by the same mass media that you are? I doubt it. I'll make one simple point - you have a TV. This is just a guess, but if it's true, it means you watch it, and while that doesn't make you some sort of mind-slave, it makes you much more immersed in the mass media than I am.

And what has this to do with pop culture? I love pop culture. I love shouting out things like "But what about the RUM?", and "Down the garbage chute flyboy!" at appropriate times. Do I like watercolor paintings of Campbell's soup cans? Not so much, but I do like wacky experimental electronica.

You DO pay out the wazoo for the "print" of a painting. Those things you get dirt cheap are called "posters", and they are certainly not "print" quality. The "poster" version of Dominions might be called a "demo", you should give it to your friends.

Pop culture is the fruit, mass media is the farmer. I'll let you figure that one out yourself, since you take offense to me belittling your intelligence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


In case you hadn't noticed, the prevailing, substantiated, and overwhelming opinion around here is that the current price for Dominions 3 IS in fact a reasonable price. This is not some sort of logical debate, where if you just pull another rabbit out of your arse, you will bend the laws of physics. This is reality, it's not going to change for you that easily.

[Amhazair]

JimMorrison said:

Lingchih said:

Tichy said:
More importantly, Rogue makes really good beer.



I like their Dead Man ale. Their Mori Moto pilsener is really good too. As well as their Imperial Stout. All are pricey.

Sorry, I used to live in Oregon, and am a big fan of the Rogue brewery.



You should get the Morimoto Soba if you can, it is -amazing-. Also a big fan of the Brutal Bitter, and their Rogue-N-Berry used to be hands down the best berry beer you could get in America, til they cut it because it wasn't as good as Belgian berry beers. o.O


I like this discussion much more than the other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


You gotta love Belgian beers - berry or otherwise. I'm not exactly unhappy about the location my parents decided to move to shortly after I was born. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I wouldn't mind having a taste of your supposedly awesome Oregon produce either, mind you.

[Twan]

Considering the time spent on it without feeling "I have nothing left to do in this game", and the interest endlessly renewed by frequent expansion patches and new players to play with, I can only compare Dominions to a MMO, and fact is 55$ for first copy + nothing each month is an extremely small price, when I payed 10 times more for three years on some games.

[Sombre]

That's a very good point Twan. If I was into a MMO game as much as I am into dominions I'd have paid quite a bit in monthly or yearly subscriptions and received pobably about the same level of support from the devs (in the form of fixes and content adds and whatnot).

[theenemy]

Yes, Dom3 is an expensive indie game. A very expensive indie game(don't let us fool ourselves here). But with all the patches(of which many have been the size of an entire expansion) that the developers so kindly have given to us, it's kinda like getting your money back. I just can't believe that I'm living in the same country(I think:) ) as the developers of this game. Astrid Lindgren? Yeah, right! Alfred Nobel? I don't think so. Illwinter Games are my new heroes!

[Leif_-]

theenemy said:
Astrid Lindgren?[SNIP] I don't think so. Illwinter Games are my new heroes!



"Pretender på tacket", "Thing that should not be på luffen", "Mästerdetektiven Cyclops", "Alla vi barn i Tir na n'Og" "Pippi Vampire Queen går ombord"

[Tichy]

JimMorrison said:
but I do like wacky experimental electronica.




Hear hear! I propose that this become a discussion of very good beer, bracing coffee snobbery, and Mother Mallard's Portable Masterpiece!

All in favor?

[theenemy]

Leif_- said:

theenemy said:
Astrid Lindgren?[SNIP] I don't think so. Illwinter Games are my new heroes!



"Pretender på tacket", "Thing that should not be på luffen", "Mästerdetektiven Cyclops", "Alla vi barn i Tir na n'Og" "Pippi Vampire Queen går ombord"



Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Don't forget Mästerdetektiven Priest King Blomkvist or Bröderna Hellbind Heart.

[hoo]

Hail Leif and his economics wisdom. Enjoyed reading his perspective which correctly uses econ models. Maximizing sales kills companies as Leif points out.

I wonder if Shrapnel could bundle some games with Dom 3 to offer a price break but I also guess that so many of their other games are so different there may not be any interest.

Say Dom 3, Scallywag and Falklands war for $100.00? I would guess there would be very few takers but it would be interesting to see how many dom 3 players have bought other Shrapnel titles and if they could be induced to do so? I'd guess the crossover is pretty small with the dom 3 title b/c it's way different from the war sims.

[Gandalf Parker]

I see a common error in some of these posts.

There are game companies who are developers, shelf-ware, and marketing. Then there are game companies who are production for developers, ordering, and publicity. They are two very different business models and you cannot just jump back and forth so dont bother comparing one to the other.

Games which go to a company as an idea, the company helps develop it, they shelf-ware it, they market it with ads are laying out quite abit of money ahead of sales. The developers dont see any profits sometimes for years. Such games tend to have to meet some basic requirements for things like eye-candy and major copy protection and built-in product failure point (I forget the word for it).

Games which are developed by the programmers, then publicized and made available for ordering are available for instant profit sharing with no pay-back timeframe. Personally, the few games Ive loved which shifted from one business-model publisher to the other have let me down. I have no problem with the way Dominions is being marketed (I also do my part to aid in the publiity side). Im not sure if Dom would benefit from switching. Im also very unsure if we the customers would benefit if they shifted.

[Sombre]

The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.

When I bought Dom3 it was quite a layout because I lived in China and as such the shipping was very expensive and it was a whole chunk of my income to buy. I very, very nearly didn't because of the cost. I'm glad I did but I didn't get my money's worth out of it for quite a while and it was definitely a risk.

[Tifone]

Sombre said:
The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.




Yeah, me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't pretend being an economics expert, or suggest the devs to make the game cheaper or even more expensive... I am sure there are very valid reasons for the pricing choices. Many of you guys talked about them.

For me, having already bought the game, I'd just like to see the game somewhat cheaper, to bring some friends (less likely to take that "leap of faith" someone talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) to buy it too to play together. For me, it was worth every single penny anyway.

[Omnirizon]

i like that this thread has shaped into an actual economics argument rather than just a straight out flame war.

says something about the community.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, it does show class, even if it lacks the entertainment value of a knife-fight.

[JimMorrison]

hoo said:
I wonder if Shrapnel could bundle some games with Dom 3 to offer a price break but I also guess that so many of their other games are so different there may not be any interest.

Say Dom 3, Scallywag and Falklands war for $100.00? I would guess there would be very few takers but it would be interesting to see how many dom 3 players have bought other Shrapnel titles and if they could be induced to do so? I'd guess the crossover is pretty small with the dom 3 title b/c it's way different from the war sims.




Not sure about the potential with a bundle - I mean, I already bought Dom3, didn't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But perhaps some sort of a bulk special, where if you order 3 copies of any product at the same time, you get a % discount? This would tempt me a bit, as some of those war sims look kind of entertaining, but haven't tempted me that much yet. Also, it would make the "getting multiple friends playing" situation a little easier.

[Dectilon]

Another one of my favorite games is Total War 2, and I've always imagined that Dominions could totally be created using that engine : )

Not that you'd cut 'n paste minotaurs over pikemen, but that a dominions game could be built using the way TW handles battles with masses of units while still having decent graphics. ^^

Except for perhaps a few minor interface issues and balance issues Dominions 3 really is close to a perfect game. The only thing that can recieve a major improvment is the presentation; the music and the graphics. With that done, look out, Spore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (or whatever high-profile strategy game we will see in the future)

[Aezeal]

While I couln't be bothered to read every post (I completely skipped the last 2 pages of posts in here)

maybe the OP should be directed towards the thread where shrapnel explained why the prices are as they where (it was a similar thread with a good reaction from shrapnel.. can't find it atm though.. before I read that I had similar thoughts as the OP.. after it I was convinced shrapnel knew what they where doing... it was very enlightning.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think it might have been in Shrapnels Blog tho it might have been linked to here.

[Aezeal]

I've a particular interest in wanting no more of this or this sort of threads (the reason being I find them annoying and if you can do it better i think you should start a business yourself and prove it and not whine here, another being that I paid a lot of money for this game so so should the rest of the world (I'm really not a nice guy)

so here is the link with some info. (I'm pretty sure there was a thread somewhere with talk about it but I can't be bothered anymore

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/?s=niche+price

[Theonlystd]

Tifone said:

Sombre said:
The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.




Yeah, me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't pretend being an economics expert, or suggest the devs to make the game cheaper or even more expensive... I am sure there are very valid reasons for the pricing choices. Many of you guys talked about them.

For me, having already bought the game, I'd just like to see the game somewhat cheaper, to bring some friends (less likely to take that "leap of faith" someone talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) to buy it too to play together. For me, it was worth every single penny anyway.



Indeed.. I dont regret buying it.. But i have more disposable income than most and can eat bad purchases here and there.. And i have in the past i've made the leap of faith on some bad games.

And would love to play this with more of my friends.. But at its current price.. Not going to happen..

[JimMorrison]

Theonlystd said:

Tifone said:

Sombre said:
The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.




Yeah, me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't pretend being an economics expert, or suggest the devs to make the game cheaper or even more expensive... I am sure there are very valid reasons for the pricing choices. Many of you guys talked about them.

For me, having already bought the game, I'd just like to see the game somewhat cheaper, to bring some friends (less likely to take that "leap of faith" someone talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) to buy it too to play together. For me, it was worth every single penny anyway.



Indeed.. I dont regret buying it.. But i have more disposable income than most and can eat bad purchases here and there.. And i have in the past i've made the leap of faith on some bad games.

And would love to play this with more of my friends.. But at its current price.. Not going to happen..




Well if you have money to burn, why not buy a second copy and give it to a friend? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If they decide they're not into it, pass it along until you hook someone, rinse and repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seems like a better investment of money than, say, buying Two Worlds or Hellgate:London. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Kraftwerk]

Well if you have money to burn, why not buy a second copy and give it to a friend? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If they decide they're not into it, pass it along until you hook someone, rinse and repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seems like a better investment of money than, say, buying Two Worlds or Hellgate:London. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Because most of his friends dont live physically near him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Kind of hard to snail mail around a copy. Of course I guess if you purchased it the cdkey is all you need, certainly other ways of getting the game alot faster than physically mailing the cd. But then you dont get a nice manual.

And those are horrible examples, hellgate londons company has fallen apart, and I assume you mean WoW, which sucks. But for cheaper than this, we could be playing any number of good strategy games. I pirated dominions 2 to play with a friend, and it convinced me to buy dominions 3 to play with the same friend.

But to get a 3rd into the group, is basically impossible, and its not like BOTH of us arent trying.

Its too expensive.

Besides, its just an MP game anyways, the AI is so horrible that SP is really just a way to check out the races and strategies for MP.

If it was cheaper, fine, lets see they would make less money, but they would have a much larger community. Whats more important, a bottom line, or a community? A community is going to keep sales of a game going alot longer, because people get attracted to communities more than the get attracted to games.

[sector24]

Everybody has a birthday...and what better gift than one that is self-serving? Instead of getting a bowling ball with your name carved in it, get him a copy of Dominions 3 or split the cost with a friend. It's win/win.

[Kraftwerk]

I also think alot of people in this thread dont give dominions enough credit. It might not have the same graphics as the total war series, but theyre that much worse. Dom has appeal that I dont think people realize.

Im the lowest common denominator when it comes to games like this, I play unreal, halflife, quakewars, I like mmos, im in my mid 20s, im not a nerd or a grognard, I buy the movies and the games with the big budget development teams and swoon over the flashy graphics.

I was swayed to this game because I really enjoy playing games with and against other people, Ive played just about every multiplayer game you can think of. I just love being competetive. If I hadnt pirated dom2 to play with a friend who had purchased it, id never have purchased dom3. Ever. So theres a sale due to piracy even. But I dont advocate people running around willy nilly stealing every game they can. If you can purchase it, purchase it. Especially if its an indy game. So I cant just tell people pirate the thing, if you like it, buy it, but the price, certainly forces people to take that route (and hopefully most of them purchase it after they see how great it is) Lowering the price, just sending emails and having interviews and reviews on some good multiplayer strategy game websites, and pbem matching making sites, to remind people who, like me, saw this game first there, saw the price and never looked at it again (till someone i knew took the leap of faith and bought it) and lowering the price, is gonna snag all those people who saw the game, saw the price, and turned their back.

Just look at it this way.

All you guys like all the mods right?

Think about all the potential mods and mod makers out there, who wont buy this game because its too expensive. Think about what youre missing out on.

[Theonlystd]

JimMorrison said:

Theonlystd said:

Tifone said:

Sombre said:
The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.




Yeah, me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't pretend being an economics expert, or suggest the devs to make the game cheaper or even more expensive... I am sure there are very valid reasons for the pricing choices. Many of you guys talked about them.

For me, having already bought the game, I'd just like to see the game somewhat cheaper, to bring some friends (less likely to take that "leap of faith" someone talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) to buy it too to play together. For me, it was worth every single penny anyway.



Indeed.. I dont regret buying it.. But i have more disposable income than most and can eat bad purchases here and there.. And i have in the past i've made the leap of faith on some bad games.

And would love to play this with more of my friends.. But at its current price.. Not going to happen..




Well if you have money to burn, why not buy a second copy and give it to a friend? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If they decide they're not into it, pass it along until you hook someone, rinse and repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seems like a better investment of money than, say, buying Two Worlds or Hellgate:London. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Pfftt i dont have that much disposable income

And pfft drop 60 on a friend !?!?!?

I dont like any of them nearly that much

[Wokeye]

3 x $45 sales does not necessarily equate to more profit than 1 x $60, only more turnover.

eg if each game cost $40 to produce/market/distribute, then you'd lose $5 on the above scenario.

[Endoperez]

Kraftwerk said:
If it was cheaper, fine, lets see they would make less money, but they would have a much larger community. Whats more important, a bottom line, or a community? A community is going to keep sales of a game going alot longer, because people get attracted to communities more than the get attracted to games.



It's better for the community that Shrapnel Games stays in business. To stay in business, they have to do profit. They have done it so far, and I doubt they're going to risk that by changing their money-making scheme. Remember, they also have to have enough money left over that they can publish other games, including possible different Illwinter game. You might want to subscribe to the FRAG! newsletter; it will tell you if there are any sales which would allow your friends to grab a copy for less. It also lists the games that have sold more in the last month, and Dominions is pretty much always on the top three. They don't give any numbers, though, so that doesn't tell much.

It's nice to know that average gamers can also appreciate Dominions. I've always felt that this is too much of a niche game for the first-person shooter crowd to get interested.

[Leif_-]

Because most of his friends dont live physically near him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Kind of hard to snail mail around a copy.



Err. What? You just put it in an envelope.


Its too expensive.



It's too expensive for you (well, your friends, anyway).


If it was cheaper, fine, lets see they would make less money, but they would have a much larger community. Whats more important, a bottom line, or a community?



You're positing a false dilemma. It's clear that Illwinter and Shrapnel can have both the current price and a good (not to say great) community.

[Gandalf Parker]

Everything has its pros and cons.
If "the Community" is going to be thrown up then wouldnt we have to take into account the difference between a community of people who can afford a $50 game vs those who would show up just because it became a $30 or $19.99 or $5 game? Our player-base seems to have a tendency to be older, more world-experienced, more educated, longer attention span, etc. (not all, but the general population)

Im not completely sure that I would be happier with more people in the community if cheap game was what it took to get them here. The same goes for many of the more drastic suggestions to change this games play, look, delivery, cost, marketing, forum, etc based on what "all the other games" do.

Just a personal unofficial alternative viewpoint to the argument of "it would get us more community"

[thejeff]

I suspect the "older, more world-experienced, more educated, longer attention span, etc" has more to do with the type of game Dominions is than with the price.

There are plenty of younger, naive, poorly educated, easily bored people who have money to burn, or who's parents will buy them games, but they're not likely to be attracted to Dominions anyway. All depth and little flash doesn't draw that kind of crowd. You might have more pick it up on a whim, but they wouldn't stick.

[Tifone]

yep, I agree with thejeff. what, crysis or painkiller or even better fifa, costing 50 euros when it comes out makes their community full of old, well-educated gentlemen? Don't think so. Many lil' kids nowadays have parents willing to spend lots of money for their toys (toys=even a Honda motorcycle when they're sixteen), for various (and many of them are plain ridiculous) reasons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If we are likely to cohabit gently and politely it's not because the game costed a pretty penny that we could affort and the barbarians not ^_^ it's because a slow, intelligent, strategic game isn't likely to attract the bored and aggressive guy out here.

[Gandalf Parker]

There are of course exceptions, and I agree on the type of game thing. But I also think that older and educated tends to add to the ability to make such a purchase. Not in each case but enough times to affect the averages.

[triqui]

Ballbarian said:
All I am going to say is that I bought Bioshock with a shiny new Xbox360 for my kids and I played it all of 2 days. Very pretty game. I am still playing Dom3 after owning it for nearly 2 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Gotcha!

:p

[Kraftwerk]

Gandalf Parker said:
Everything has its pros and cons.
If "the Community" is going to be thrown up then wouldnt we have to take into account the difference between a community of people who can afford a $50 game vs those who would show up just because it became a $30 or $19.99 or $5 game? Our player-base seems to have a tendency to be older, more world-experienced, more educated, longer attention span, etc. (not all, but the general population)

Im not completely sure that I would be happier with more people in the community if cheap game was what it took to get them here. The same goes for many of the more drastic suggestions to change this games play, look, delivery, cost, marketing, forum, etc based on what "all the other games" do.

Just a personal unofficial alternative viewpoint to the argument of "it would get us more community"



Yeah but you also have 20 threads with someone (usually a different person) on the first page of the forums, who is scolding someone for bad english, or not using the correct slang term for something in the game. Theres posts where people tell people to leave the community because they cant form a complete sentence.

If thats the kind of nerd, grognard, elitist community you want, sure, go ahead and let this stay a niche game. But you go to other strategy game forums and you have a much larger, much more diverse community, where the nerds and grognards are put in their place like they should be, instead of in every thread turning away potential community members with their elitism.

I cant possibly understand the thought process that a smaller, older, community, is better, than a larger, younger, thriving community.

If you love the game so much, youd want to see more and more people exposed to this game, and more and more people purchasing it and modding for it. Thats more likely to prompt a dominions 4, or a real developed expansion, instead of just new races occasionally ,that the current mod makers are more than capable of doing themselves.

Its like the guy who owns the record store, who insults all of his customers over their taste in music, thus turning a business into a hangout for a few likeminded elitests.

Im sure that makes those guys feel great about themselves, but their business is going to fail.

I dont forsee Illwinter still being around in 10 years. Just like I didnt forsee Microprose being around in 10 years after Xcom and MoM.

The same thing will happen to this game, that happened to those games. The company will go out of business, the elitist community will disapate, the game will get cracked and hacked all to hell, a few years from now itll reach its peak of popularity, and the developers wont see a cent for it.

Its only a niche game because you force it to be a niche game.

[Kraftwerk]

Theres a real chance for indy developers and "niche" games, to really get out there right now. The PC game community is heralding the end of times, because the new consoles just came out, and sales are down across the board. Add on to that the fact that people are tired of more of the same, and spending 1000s on upgrades every 6 months to play the A+titles, and you have an enviroment where cheaper games, with solid gameplay, with digital distribution and large communities, are going to reign supreme on the PC for some time to come.

PC gamer companies cant compete the same way console game companies do, and they cant compete the way the did just a year ago.

Digital purchasing and downloading of games, episodic content at less than 10 dollars, matchmaking services for multiplayer games, and strong communities are what the PC has to offer that consoles dont. Adapt or die.

Id like to see the people who made this game (and not the people who publish it) make money on this game for the next 20 years. Instead of still playing this game for years to come, while the devs all work at telecom companies to pay the bills, while hackers and pirates, continue to create new content for a game they didnt develop or help support.

Digital distribution is the fastest way to not need a publisher. Then you have more money to spend on an A+ website, instead of something that looks like its an angelfire page from 1995.

[thejeff]

The devs do this part time and have, I believe, teaching jobs fulltime. (At least Kristoffer teaches.) They appear to be content with that. This isn't an attempt to break into the big time gaming world. It's a hobby that's self supporting and brings in some money. You have to understand that to understand the reasons for their attitude.

I fully expect Illwinter to be around, as long as they're both interested in writing games and able to bring in enough money to justify the time. 10 years from now? Why not? Or maybe they'll have moved on to other things.

And for the community point:
I don't know how many threads show on your front page, but it defaults to 50 and I'll bet you can't find more than a couple that are nothing but spelling/grammar flames. Maybe I just gloss over them, so if you'd like to point 20 such threads out...
There are some heated arguments, but very few are just here to troll or flame. The vast majority of people are told to leave are suspected piracy cases and even those are usually just directed to Shrapnel support.
This has always seemed a very friendly supportive community to me. That's largely a function of the type of players the game attracts.

[Edi]

Kraftwerk said:
Yeah but you also have 20 threads with someone (usually a different person) on the first page of the forums, who is scolding someone for bad english, or not using the correct slang term for something in the game. Theres posts where people tell people to leave the community because they cant form a complete sentence.


You'll no doubt have a good handful of examples to point to right off the bat, I trust? Because generally when that sort of behavior starts manifesting, so do the moderators. And the moderator manifestation in those cases tends to be of the "ton of bricks" variety. Browbeating new people on those counts usually nets an immediate warning and message to knock it off here.

Sometimes we may miss such occasions, but when they are pointed to us, swift action is taken. Especially now that there are three recently promoted moderators so that there are more eyes on the forum at any given time.



Kraftwerk said:
If thats the kind of nerd, grognard, elitist community you want, sure, go ahead and let this stay a niche game. But you go to other strategy game forums and you have a much larger, much more diverse community, where the nerds and grognards are put in their place like they should be, instead of in every thread turning away potential community members with their elitism.


I've taken a look at several different strategy gaming forums and compared to those, the cold-shoulder elitism you are talking about is surprisingly absent here. There is, as it is with every strategy game, the division between competitive gamers (usually the MP side) and the sandbox players (often SP players), but that's about it. The lack of hostility and RTFM responses here even to questions covered by the manual and/or the FAQ is surprisingly relevant here.

What does get people riled up and annoyed here is if somebody comes in with an attitude and a chip the size of a tank division on their shoulder and starts lecturing the community. That gets a hostile response and rightly so.



Kraftwerk said:
I cant possibly understand the thought process that a smaller, older, community, is better, than a larger, younger, thriving community.


For the purposes of answering this, it would be nice to know your age for comparison. I can think of several right off the bat. Older, more mature people generally have a MUCH better signal to noise ratio compared to younger ones, they are not so quick to take offense at absolutely everything and they have a better grasp of how to interact with people without causing undue drama. Doesn't mean it is completely absent, I've blown my stack a few times quite spectacularly and I'm a moderator, but compared to the amount of whining, *****ing, wailing, crying and just being an annoying whinger I've seen elsewhere, the Dom3 community again comes through.


Kraftwerk said:
If you love the game so much, youd want to see more and more people exposed to this game, and more and more people purchasing it and modding for it. Thats more likely to prompt a dominions 4, or a real developed expansion, instead of just new races occasionally ,that the current mod makers are more than capable of doing themselves.


Illwinter has repeatedly said that making money out of this is not a primary motivator for them at all. So appealing to that is not going to get you anywhere with the developers. They are also hardly likely to hand their creation over to someone else to develop it as a big production game, because that sort of thing usually requires signing over all sorts of rights that you won't be able to get back and then you can only watch as morons with no grasp whatsoever of it go and assrape the franchise.

Dominions 3 has decent exposure. Its attractions are the depth and uniqueness, as well as its immense moddability, which is going to keep on improving with patches. It is not graphics, which is what most of the big audience always looks at first. They want flash and glitter and if it's not there at first glance, they don't even take a second look, and those who are into this particular genre and are not so superficial will find the game. Could the exposure be greater? Yes. Does it necessarily need to happen according to your formula? No.


Kraftwerk said:
Its like the guy who owns the record store, who insults all of his customers over their taste in music, thus turning a business into a hangout for a few likeminded elitests.


Funny, I haven't seen this behavior from Shrapnel or from Illwinter at all, but perhaps you feel that way because your opinions are not immediately accepted as the gospel you seem to consider them to be? Because you're starting to sound mighty preachy and holier-than-thou there.


Kraftwerk said:
Im sure that makes those guys feel great about themselves, but their business is going to fail.


Presumably you have some hard evidence at hand that the Shrapnel business model is failing? Or that such a thing is even a consideration for Illwinter?


Kraftwerk said:
I dont forsee Illwinter still being around in 10 years. Just like I didnt forsee Microprose being around in 10 years after Xcom and MoM.


You should get a refund for that crystal ball wrt Illwinter. It's broken. Illwinter is KO and JK and it's their hobby project. It's not a regular company, so your analogy to Microprose does not apply.


Kraftwerk said:
The same thing will happen to this game, that happened to those games. The company will go out of business, the elitist community will disapate, the game will get cracked and hacked all to hell, a few years from now itll reach its peak of popularity, and the developers wont see a cent for it.


Illwinter go out of business? Hahahahahahahahahaaaa! Thanks, I needed the laugh. MAking a profit is not much of a consideration for them, they are doing this for fun. Kristoffer Österman has directly stated this in the forums, repeatedly. In the meanwhile, Dom3 continues to be a steady earner for Shrapnel, so you're completely off the mark so far. There will be turnover in the community, but given that I'm seeing same names that were around five years ago for Dom2 and even before that for Dominions PPP, this prediction is also very bold and uncertain in my opinion. As far as Shrapnel going out of business? No signs of that yet, so the community also has a place to stay for the nonce.


Kraftwerk said:
Its only a niche game because you force it to be a niche game.


Do you have anything but sanctimonious preaching to back this assertion up? Because it's not getting any better with repetition.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, um, Kraftwerk? have you been to any other forums online? Any at all? Aside from the fact that this is one of the most geographically diverse forums that I've encountered-atleast where real conversations happened about other countries than the USA or Iraq-and that we're both used to dealing with people for whom English is a second language, and pretty friendly about it-I can't think of any (that is, any at all on the whole of the internet in my experience), that is more friendly and welcoming towards new people.

[Tichy]

I can't find a thread on the front page started by a "corporal" or above (my litmus for 'possible veteran') that aims at lambasting or belittling anybody. That's generally reserved for fun in-character posts on the MP board.

In my experience newbs who show up with a question or friendly suggestion are welcomed, listened to and answered. People who show up and their first post is insulting people or demanding things or claiming that "Monkey PD can nevar...." generally receive a less gentle but most festive greeting.

[Gandalf Parker]

Tichy said:
generally receive a less gentle but most festive greeting.


LOL
Literally LOL which I rarely do.

[S.R. Krol]

Jeez, this is still going?

Not going to bother discussing the latest trolling, Edi has done a fine job of pointing out the weaknesses in your latest attacks, but I do want to point out one thing.

You say that Illwinter won't be around in ten years. Well, Conquest of Elysium II came out in 1997, so they've already been around eleven years (add more time to that too, since you have to count in development time) so I really wouldn't be too concerned with them vanishing.

[Leif_-]

Kraftwerk said:If thats the kind of nerd, grognard, elitist community you want, sure, go ahead and let this stay a niche game.



Thank you. We just might, now that we've been given permission.

(Not that it's my decision in any way what to do about Dominions, of course, but when handed a straight line like that, how could I refuse to step up to it?)

[Annette]

Kraftwerk said:
If I hadnt pirated dom2 to play with a friend who had purchased it, id never have purchased dom3. Ever. So theres a sale due to piracy even. But I dont advocate people running around willy nilly stealing every game they can. If you can purchase it, purchase it. Especially if its an indy game. So I cant just tell people pirate the thing, if you like it, buy it, but the price, certainly forces people to take that route (and hopefully most of them purchase it after they see how great it is) Lowering the price, just sending emails and having interviews and reviews on some good multiplayer strategy game websites, and pbem matching making sites, to remind people who, like me, saw this game first there, saw the price and never looked at it again (till someone i knew took the leap of faith and bought it) and lowering the price, is gonna snag all those people who saw the game, saw the price, and turned their back.




Tim and I took our daughter to the movies last week and were appalled at the high price of concessions. They wanted $4.00 for a box of Goobers! $9.50 for a soft pretzel and a Coke! Outrageous. But, boy, do we love to eat while we take in a flick. I mean, we're not just going to sit in the dark and not eat anything.

So when the cashier rang us up to the tune of $39.00 (we could have eaten big, juicy burgers with plump, crispy steak fries in a nice restaurant for that), we just took the stuff and ran. But you know what? It was so good - boy that pretzel was yummy. We ended going back for seconds, and this time we paid for it. So really, the owners of the theater should be happy, because even though we stole food, we were prompted to buy more. And it really makes no difference that there was guy set up in the corner of the lobby handing out free samples of the hot, doughy pretzels...that was not really enough to tell us whether we should take a chance on paying for what we desired to consume. I'm not saying everyone should do this, but it was okay for us.

This is a game publisher's board. You've admitted that you have stolen from us. We will not tolerate your coming here trying to justify to us and our community that you have a right to steal from us because you don't like our business model. End of discussion.